From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 01:50:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29724 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 01:50:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA29706 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 01:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA01030; Sun, 3 May 1998 01:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805030849.BAA01030@implode.root.com> To: Marc Slemko cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp.freebsd.org acting funny? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 00:39:37 MDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 01:49:31 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> ncftp and ncftp2 work fine. What is broken is that people expect that >> passing arguments to the "ls" command will be interpreted on the other >> end when the RFC specifically says otherwise. RFC 959 is quite specific >> about the behavior of the NLST command (which is what 'ls' does in ncftp): > >Except that just issuing a "ls" in at least some versions of ncftp2 >_doesn't_ work. Oh, okay, thanks for pointing that out. To this point I was assuming that the user was typing "ls -CF", and not that the ncftp client was adding this on (THAT is clearly wrong as far as the RFC is concerned). It's pretty clear that I'm going to have to implement some sort of work around for this. :-( -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 02:51:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA06480 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:51:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA06460 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:51:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id CAA09708 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:51:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 02:51:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Jan Koum X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Here it is. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It finally happened. FreeBSD is picking up that momentum in the computer world. How do I know? Number of users on #freebsd on EFNet almost tripled in the last year. Amount of traffic on mailing lists grew (anyone has exact stats?). And three people from my _humanities_ class not including myself know what FreeBSD is (and I didn't tell them about it). The time we all have been waiting for is here now. Lets all do as much as we can for FreeBSD to keep this momentum going. Use it as much as you can. Tell your friend about it.. even if they don't have a computer. This is the new world. World of FreeBSD. *grin* -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux -- DOS of the Unix world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 04:09:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA18530 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 04:09:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA18471 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 04:09:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA01364 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 04:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805031108.EAA01364@implode.root.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp.freebsd.org acting funny? From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 04:08:16 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Due to popular demand, I implemented the multi-column and 'type-character' support tonight for dg-ftpd on wcarchive. I tested it with ncftp2 and it passes my tests. Let me know if there are any more problems - thanks. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 07:28:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05170 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 07:28:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05164; Sun, 3 May 1998 07:28:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805031428.HAA05164@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: digest lists please! In-Reply-To: <199805021649.LAA27769@pobox.com> from Tony Kimball at "May 2, 98 11:49:12 am" To: alk@pobox.com Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 07:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tony Kimball wrote: > > I'd very much appreciate digest versions of freebsd-net, > freebsd-multimedia. In my majordomo-naivete, I assume this > is just a matter of flipping a switch. Please, to flip. its a little more work than that. i would have to create the digest mailing lists. every mailing lists mail is collected into a file that you could ftp every day. the file is on ftp.freebsd.org /pub/FreeBSD/mailing-lists/freebsd-{net,multimedia}. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 09:29:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17000 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:29:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16962; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:28:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805031628.JAA16962@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: digest lists please! In-Reply-To: <354BCB86.E991DBC9@ibm.net> from Don Wilde at "May 2, 98 06:42:30 pm" To: dwilde1@ibm.net Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 09:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Cc: alk@pobox.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don Wilde wrote: > and -questions. I'd like to participate again, but I don't have a home > link fast enough to get hundreds of individual mail sends. there is a digest of -questions. please send "lists" command to majordomo to find out what lists are available. ehco "lists" | mail majordomo@freebsd.org jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 10:27:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24522 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 10:27:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24514 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 10:27:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22311; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:27:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805031727.LAA22311@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 11:27:39 -0600 To: dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: ftp.freebsd.org acting funny? In-Reply-To: <199805031108.EAA01364@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does this mean we actually have an FTP server that can send a text file without forcing you to download it? I've been annoyed by lack of support for this for YEARS. --Brett Glass At 04:08 AM 5/3/98 -0700, you wrote: > Due to popular demand, I implemented the multi-column and 'type-character' >support tonight for dg-ftpd on wcarchive. I tested it with ncftp2 and it >passes my tests. Let me know if there are any more problems - thanks. > >-DG > >David Greenman >Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 10:59:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28094 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 10:59:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cybertouch.org (cybertouch.org [209.47.145.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28076; Sun, 3 May 1998 10:59:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from beef@cybertouch.org) Received: from localhost (beef@localhost) by cybertouch.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03363; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:58:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from beef@cybertouch.org) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 13:58:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Lanny Baron To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: device busy... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Anyone know how to umount a device like a cdrom when umount /cdrom comes back with device busy, and you do a ps -aux and see nothing going on with the cdrom? Thanks for your help * Lanny Baron * | Have you had your BEEF today? | | http://www.tht.net/~beef | | * | Want a great operating system? | | try FreeBSD, it's remarkable! | * http://www.FreeBSD.org * &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 11:12:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00664 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:12:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cybertouch.org (cybertouch.org [209.47.145.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00644; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:12:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from beef@cybertouch.org) Received: from localhost (beef@localhost) by cybertouch.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA03410; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:11:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from beef@cybertouch.org) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 14:11:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Lanny Baron To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: devices.... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Forget the last message from me. I found out from the man page on umount, the command is umount -f /cdrom * Lanny Baron * | Have you had your BEEF today? | | http://www.tht.net/~beef | | * | Want a great operating system? | | try FreeBSD, it's remarkable! | * http://www.FreeBSD.org * &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 13:48:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24000 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:48:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23843 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:48:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00613; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:47:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805032047.PAA00613@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: ftp.freebsd.org acting funny? In-Reply-To: <199805031727.LAA22311@lariat.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "May 3, 98 11:27:39 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 15:47:53 -0500 (EST) Cc: dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said: > Does this mean we actually have an FTP server that can send a text file > without forcing you to download it? I've been annoyed by lack of support > for this > for YEARS. > I am not sure if this isn't what you are talking about: ftp> get file.ext |more If you do this with our standard ftp program, it will pipe the output to more, instead of a file. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 14:40:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02708 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:40:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.webweaver.net (xwin.webweaver.net [208.138.29.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02682; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:40:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.webweaver.net) Received: (from nicole@localhost) by xwin.webweaver.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA00995; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:40:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 14:40:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA02684 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-May-98 Brett Glass wisely wrote: > I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating > the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however, > are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general. > > I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the > awareness > level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative > point of view. That's where the benefit comes in. > > --Brett I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I don't know h ow true it is.. Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take Freebs d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s tate that it was FreeBSD. Any comments? Nicole > > P.S. -- I'm cross-posting this one reply to both lists, but further > discussion > probably shouldn't be. > > At 11:51 AM 5/3/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>On Sat, 2 May 1998 at 18:25:47 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >>> As usual, a group of GPL zealots have gotten loose in an InfoWorld forum, >>> claiming that RMS is nothing less than a saint and that the GPL is The One >>> True Way. They're also trashing FreeBSD and the Berkeley-style license >>> quite a bit. Some folks from this list might care to join in.... In fact, I >>> think they should, as previous discussions on the InfoWorld forums have >>> raised FreeBSD's profile. The URL for the discussion is >>> >>> http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767 >>> >>> You can read the messages without registering, but need to fill out a short >>> registration form to post. (From what I can tell, you don't have to give >>> much -- or accurate -- information on the form.) >> >>Copying (and following-up to) advocacy. This seems a better forum. >> >>Well, speech is free, but I don't think you'll get much satisfaction >>fighting a bunch of people who see things differently. Having said >>that, of course, I'd have a hard time suggesting that you stop :-) >> >>I don't think that it's a good idea to get FreeBSD's name too involved >>in this kind of discussion, though. It'll just give the zealots more >>ammunition. (I don't know if you *do* mention FreeBSD--I haven't had >>time to read all the messages. >> >>Greg >>-- >>See complete headers for address and phone numbers >>finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key >> > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ ------------------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 15:23:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10520 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:23:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10462; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:23:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA16256; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:23:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id RAA26258; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:22:39 -0500 Message-ID: <19980503172238.09469@right.PCS> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 17:22:38 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Nicole Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Nicole on May 05, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 05, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700, Nicole wrote: > > I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I > don't know how true it is.. > > Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to > take Freebsd and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page > extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give anything > back to the FreeBSD group or even state that it was FreeBSD. > > Any comments? That's not a bug, it's a feature. :-) If M$ wants to do exactly that, more power to them. In fact, I feel that that is one of best things about the BSD license; anyone can take it, add their features, and resell it. Some companies even do exactly what you are exactly what you are describing. So what's wrong with that? Simple economics state that people have to make money in order to make a living. Their competitors can also do the same thing. The developers of FreeBSD get satisfaction in knowing that their work is valuable to others, and has been used to improve the overall state of the art in the industry. Actually, it would be nice if M$ would do that, perhaps it would greatly reduce the bugcount in their software and make it more useable. :-) -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 15:32:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12193 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:32:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12085; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:31:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25472; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:31:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805032231.QAA25472@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 16:31:37 -0600 To: Nicole From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list In-Reply-To: References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I don't know h >ow true it is.. > > Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take Freebs >d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page extensions, active X etc) > and sell it without having to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s >tate that it was FreeBSD. > > >Any comments? > > Nicole This argument has been refuted many times. As has been pointed out in other forums, Microsoft has the money to reimplement anything it wants! For instance, while Microsoft could have used the BSD TCP/IP stack (as IBM did for OS/2 and NeXT did for NeXTStep), it didn't; it rolled its own. The restrictions on commercial re-use of source found in the GPL don't hurt Microsoft one bit. Failure to allow commercial re-use of code never bothers the "big guys," like Microsoft, which can drop a few million without breaking a sweat and hire programmers to "rewrite the wheel." (Heck, they can buy a whole company that has what they want.) And actually LIKE it if their stuff turns out to be just a bit incompatible; it locks users in. But the little guy -- the upstart competitor -- will lose valuable time reimplementing what's already been done. I think we'd all prefer to free innovators to concentrate on what's innovative and new, rather than having to start from scratch when a problem has already been solved. The result is likely to be of higher quality -- and more compatible, too. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 15:48:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14432 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:48:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14411; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:48:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05504; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:48:29 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA00728; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:48:29 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504004828.35746@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:48:28 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Nicole , Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Nicole on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700, Nicole wrote: > > On 03-May-98 Brett Glass wisely wrote: > > I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating > > the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however, > > are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general. > > > > I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the > > awareness > > level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative > > point of view. That's where the benefit comes in. > > > > --Brett > > > I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I > don't know how true it is.. > > Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to > take FreeBSD and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page > extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give > anything back to the FreeBSD group or even state that it was > FreeBSD. They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source sometime. One example: They have to credit the University of California at Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in /usr/src/COPYRIGHT. It is, however, correct that they wouldn't have to return the source. That's intended, and a lot of developers and contributors use it. I (for one) distribute FreeBSD-based products without providing source code, but I contribute back close to all generally usable to changes to the "official" FreeBSD. (I can't think of any examples of changes I haven't given back, but there might be some.) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 15:56:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15472 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:56:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15279; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:55:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805032255.PAA15279@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <19980504004154.04264@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "May 4, 98 00:41:54 am" To: eivind@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 15:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, mph@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-all@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-ports@FreeBSD.ORGjmb@FreeBSD.ORG, mph@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [lets move this to chat] Eivind Eklund wrote: > > Let me rephrase this for TV: > > If you're a producer of TV-sets, including an option to automatically > remove all advertising so that all programs run continously[1] would > be unwise, as it would be bad for the health of the medium. As a > consumer, skipping on a case-by-case basis is (of course) OK. its excellent for the health of the medium. in the USA its called public television. due to advertizing and the sensitivities of corporations, american TV has degenerated into a handful of programs: sitcoms, soap operas (including LA Law, Dallas, All My Children), sports, news, Oprah-style material and very little else. retch.. this is why Fred Friendly, former CBS executive, left commercial TV and went to PBS....he wanted to do journalism again. to make matter worse, the quantity of commericals constantly increase.... > Besides, the payment system for TV is different from the one for > web-sites. Websites are paid per display of an advert (ie, per > viewer) - TV channels are paid bulk or per slot they display the ad in > (which reach an unknown number of viewers). ratings provide the seller/buyer with an approximation or the number of viewers....super bowl ads are more expensive that those shown during the Erol Flynn version of Captain Blood (old hollywood pirate film from the '50s(?)). > > Eivind. > > [1] Yes, this is impossible for TV, but it is just what ijb does for > web-sites. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 16:01:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16373 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:01:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16273; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA04729; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:30:34 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980504083034.A356@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:30:34 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonathan Lemon , Nicole Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> <19980503172238.09469@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980503172238.09469@right.PCS>; from Jonathan Lemon on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 05:22:38PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 3 May 1998 at 17:22:38 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > On May 05, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700, Nicole wrote: >> >> I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I >> don't know how true it is.. >> >> Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to >> take Freebsd and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page >> extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give anything >> back to the FreeBSD group or even state that it was FreeBSD. >> >> Any comments? > > That's not a bug, it's a feature. :-) In fact, the BSD license *does* require acknowledgement of the sources. Read it again. And yes, Microsoft has done this already, at least indirectly. Do you think they wrote all of their TCP/IP code? On the other hand, compare what they made of it to the original and you'll see why there's no particular reason for concern. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 16:05:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16852 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:05:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16674; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:03:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA04737; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:33:10 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:33:10 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Eivind Eklund , Nicole , Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> <19980504004828.35746@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980504004828.35746@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:48:28AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 0:48:28 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700, Nicole wrote: >> >> On 03-May-98 Brett Glass wisely wrote: >>> I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating >>> the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however, >>> are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general. >>> >>> I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the >>> awareness >>> level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative >>> point of view. That's where the benefit comes in. >>> >>> --Brett >> >> >> I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I >> don't know how true it is.. >> >> Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to >> take FreeBSD and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page >> extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give >> anything back to the FreeBSD group or even state that it was >> FreeBSD. > > They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a > LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source > sometime. > > One example: They have to credit the University of California at > Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in > /usr/src/COPYRIGHT. Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 16:09:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17533 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:09:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17098; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:06:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05870; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:06:03 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA00857; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:06:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504010604.28183@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:06:04 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Greg Lehey , Nicole , Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> <19980504004828.35746@follo.net> <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:10AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:10AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 0:48:28 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a > > LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source > > sometime. > > > > One example: They have to credit the University of California at > > Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in > > /usr/src/COPYRIGHT. > > Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? > You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. Then we're dealing with license violation. I don't think GPLing something will help you if you assume the license will be violated. Of course, the GPL is viral, and as a such might be more scary. A neat hack might be to create a BSD-style license which goes viral if violated :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 16:28:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22065 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:28:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA21955 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:28:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02486; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805032327.QAA02486@implode.root.com> To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp.freebsd.org acting funny? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 11:27:39 MDT." <199805031727.LAA22311@lariat.lariat.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 16:27:01 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Does this mean we actually have an FTP server that can send a text file >without forcing you to download it? I've been annoyed by lack of support >for this >for YEARS. I've always used: get file |more or get file |cat -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 16:30:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22651 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:30:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22606 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:30:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA06843; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:24:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 19:24:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Nicole cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [X-post to -advocacy removed] On Sun, 3 May 1998, Nicole wrote: > Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like > M$) to take Freebsd and add some propritary stuff to it (like > Front page extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having > to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s > tate that it was FreeBSD. I have heard one good argument against the GPL. It is that someone (like M$) can't add innovations (like a good GUI, an embeded toaster product, or daring high-investment product like XiG's server) without being threatened to lose their investment when someone else remarkets the product without contributing to the capital costs. There is no simple "this one is better" answer. I suspect time will give some good hints. A "this one is better" argument is best left for historians. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 16:35:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18208 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17990; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA04773; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:40:45 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980504084045.C356@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:40:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Eivind Eklund , Nicole , Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> <19980504004828.35746@follo.net> <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> <19980504010604.28183@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980504010604.28183@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 01:06:04AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 1:06:04 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:10AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 0:48:28 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >>> They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a >>> LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source >>> sometime. >>> >>> One example: They have to credit the University of California at >>> Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in >>> /usr/src/COPYRIGHT. >> >> Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? >> You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. > > Then we're dealing with license violation. I don't think GPLing > something will help you if you assume the license will be violated. Sure. This wasn't supposed to be an argument for the GPL. > Of course, the GPL is viral, and as a such might be more scary. A > neat hack might be to create a BSD-style license which goes viral if > violated :-) You still need to get the source. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 16:54:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26759 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:54:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26731 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:54:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00679; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:54:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805032354.SAA00679@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: from Tim Vanderhoek at "May 3, 98 07:24:54 pm" To: hoek@hwcn.org (Tim Vanderhoek) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:54:33 -0500 (EST) Cc: freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Vanderhoek said: > [X-post to -advocacy removed] > > On Sun, 3 May 1998, Nicole wrote: > > > Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like > > M$) to take Freebsd and add some propritary stuff to it (like > > Front page extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having > > to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s > > tate that it was FreeBSD. > > I have heard one good argument against the GPL. It is that > someone (like M$) can't add innovations (like a good GUI, an > embeded toaster product, or daring high-investment product like > XiG's server) without being threatened to lose their investment > when someone else remarkets the product without contributing to > the capital costs. > > There is no simple "this one is better" answer. I suspect time > will give some good hints. A "this one is better" argument is > best left for historians. > I suggest that synergy with industry is not only *not* destructive to free software, but actually helps fund it. I believe that free software can be produced by commercial developers, who often tend to be very practiced and skillful. By taking profit motive away by making enhancements necessarily encumbered, this takes a degree of freedom away from those who have to feed their families, as opposed to being fed by their families. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 17:03:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28265 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:03:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28052 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:02:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20807; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:02:27 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980504100223.05257@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:02:23 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: dg@root.com Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp.freebsd.org acting funny? References: <199805031727.LAA22311@lariat.lariat.org> <199805032327.QAA02486@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199805032327.QAA02486@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 04:27:01PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 04:27:01PM -0700, David Greenman wrote: > >Does this mean we actually have an FTP server that can send a text file > >without forcing you to download it? I've been annoyed by lack of support > >for this > >for YEARS. > > I've always used: > > get file |more > or > get file |cat In ncftp2 it's just page filename It's been like that since I first used it about 6 years ago. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 17:10:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29238 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:10:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29230; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:10:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id RAA27372; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:10:38 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id RAA30905; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 17:09:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Lanny Baron cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: device busy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 3 May 1998, Lanny Baron wrote: This does not belong on chat. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 17:12:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29603 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:12:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29589; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:12:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA14861; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:07:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: Eivind Eklund , mph@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <199805032255.PAA15279@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 3 May 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > to make matter worse, the quantity of commericals constantly > increase.... Brand/product awareness advertising has its place in a well-functioning society. It's an expression of confidence in a product by a company. There is an argument to be made that it is too common for the health of the nation, but I don't think comparisons to TV count (nevermind that you neglect the fact that there is, like it or not, market demand for the TV shows you cite) since the limited TV bandwidth available limits the competition among broadcasters. That said, you still may have a point, but until you show me that the ad revenue is not needed by those profitting from it currently, I disagree. :) It may be worthwhile to differentiate between information providers, a-la news, entertainment, and service-providers such as Yahoo. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 17:28:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02730 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02682; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03888; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:28:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805040028.RAA03888@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nicole cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 14:40:12 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 17:28:09 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sure who cares and M$ can do the same thing with GPL code in fact they have done to companies . However , if you wish to be honest unlike some monopolies we *do* have an advantage over GPL license which is that the BSD license does provide the option to commercialize the code legally. One issue to keep in mind is that is very difficult and costly to privatize an OS installation like FreeBSD . Amancio > > On 03-May-98 Brett Glass wisely wrote: > > I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating > > the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however, > > are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general. > > > > I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the > > awareness > > level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative > > point of view. That's where the benefit comes in. > > > > --Brett > > > I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I don't know h > ow true it is.. > > Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take Freebs > d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page extensions, active X etc) > and sell it without having to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s > tate that it was FreeBSD. > > > Any comments? > > Nicole > > > > > > > P.S. -- I'm cross-posting this one reply to both lists, but further > > discussion > > probably shouldn't be. > > > > At 11:51 AM 5/3/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >>On Sat, 2 May 1998 at 18:25:47 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >>> As usual, a group of GPL zealots have gotten loose in an InfoWorld forum, > >>> claiming that RMS is nothing less than a saint and that the GPL is The One > >>> True Way. They're also trashing FreeBSD and the Berkeley-style license > >>> quite a bit. Some folks from this list might care to join in.... In fact, I > >>> think they should, as previous discussions on the InfoWorld forums have > >>> raised FreeBSD's profile. The URL for the discussion is > >>> > >>> http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767 > >>> > >>> You can read the messages without registering, but need to fill out a short > >>> registration form to post. (From what I can tell, you don't have to give > >>> much -- or accurate -- information on the form.) > >> > >>Copying (and following-up to) advocacy. This seems a better forum. > >> > >>Well, speech is free, but I don't think you'll get much satisfaction > >>fighting a bunch of people who see things differently. Having said > >>that, of course, I'd have a hard time suggesting that you stop :-) > >> > >>I don't think that it's a good idea to get FreeBSD's name too involved > >>in this kind of discussion, though. It'll just give the zealots more > >>ammunition. (I don't know if you *do* mention FreeBSD--I haven't had > >>time to read all the messages. > >> > >>Greg > >>-- > >>See complete headers for address and phone numbers > >>finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > >> > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ > webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ > ------------------------------------------------- > > -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- > -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- > > -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- > -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 17:31:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03339 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03198; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:30:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03909; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805040030.RAA03909@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nicole cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 14:40:12 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 17:30:34 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oh, I forgot to add : Lets take this thread to Infoworld -- is nice to have this group conversatations however we need to include a much wider audience, beside Brett already invite us so lets take this show on the road 8) Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 17:32:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03481 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:32:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tok.qiv.com (oMLsMQad7wAbCL0SVSRG4H+gNdYC0R5d@tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03341; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:31:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id TAA09541; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:29:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA01402; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:29:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 19:29:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Greg Lehey cc: Eivind Eklund , Nicole , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: [snip] >Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? >You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. There is nothing with which to compare Microsoft. They have established a low point yet matched. The BSD license is scattered all through AIX -- although a strong argument could be made that it's not really SYSV. I think it's a very BSD-like OS with some unusual integrated applications. Their SPs wouldn't function without free software -- kerberos, automounter, perl and tcl. I think they've been good about it. They even include source with the SP software. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 17:48:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06422 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:48:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06412; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:48:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA22004; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:43:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:43:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: Tim Vanderhoek To: "John S. Dyson" cc: Tim Vanderhoek , freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <199805032354.SAA00679@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 3 May 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > I suggest that synergy with industry is not only *not* destructive > to free software, but actually helps fund it. I believe that Synergy is helpful, yes. (In the real world, that is --- just like Stallman, I can propose worlds where it is not --- they don't mean anything!). My concern is that the computer industry may be inherently susceptible to the development of monopolies. A monopoly is not conduscive to synergy. It seems obvious that closed software world is badly susceptible to monopolies. The question, in my mind, is whether the open software world is susceptible to monopolies. I don't believe this is something that will be known for another 20 years, at the minimum. Most -list readers (including me) agree the BSD license can bring-about an open software world much more quickly and easily, but if we assume open software is destined to win regardless of license, then it is this future 20 years (minimum) that we are concerned with in choosing a license. History judges futurists harshly, and 20 years makes my head spin. Heck, that's probably older than most of the -list participants here... ;-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 18:00:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07928 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07806 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:59:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0.Beta7/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id CAA26818 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:59:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id CAA02799 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:35:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980504023518.A2789@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 02:35:18 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: device busy... Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Lanny Baron on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 01:58:19PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4245 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Lanny Baron: > Anyone know how to umount a device like a cdrom when umount /cdrom comes > back with device busy, and you do a ps -aux and see nothing going on with > the cdrom? Use lsof from ports to find which processes have opened a file or device. It is much more usable than our fstat. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #8: Tue Apr 21 02:45:53 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 18:30:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12312 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:30:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12264; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:29:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA08669; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:29:41 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA01731; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:29:40 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 03:29:39 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Matthew Hunt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew N. Dodd on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 08:59:31PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [taken to -chat] On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 08:59:31PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Sun, 3 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > Should't this be under ATT (for "Automated Theft Tool")? ;-) > > > > Refusing to download ads from the WWW is very bad practice. Those ads are > > paying for the service you're using. I'm not even certain we should have > > the above program as a port - I don't think we'd have a 'automated > > crack-on-download' tool, for instance, and this is actually fairly similar. > > I strongly disagree. Arguments! Come up with arguments! > The only reason I have a problem with banners is that they break caching > at times and are hosted on separate sites than the content and often stall > the loading of the web page. > > I'm on a 28.8 with 3 other people and about 8 to 16 systems. The last > thing I need is some lame ass animated GIF banner cloging my line. This describe why you're inconvenienced. Sure, I agree that banners are inconvenient - I'm none too happy about having to download banners myself. But let me do a slight re-phrasing of you: "I'm on a thight budget, with 3 other people that use software too. The last thing I need is to have to pay for the commercial software we use." Web pages with banners generally come with a license, too. This license as often as not explictly forbid modifying the HTML and pictures before displaying the pages. So, what you're doing is pirating web-pages. I don't think we should have cracker tools in the ports collection, and I _especially_ don't think we should have power-tools in the ports collection labelled as cracker tools. Besides which I believe that filtering those banners is harmful in the long run - the $.01 to $.08 you rip the web page owner off each time you view a page without an ad _do_ add up. Oh, and a new point I just thought of: FreeBSD is likely to be considered associates-before-the-fact if we distribute something labelled so that it can be considered a tool for crime. I can look up the relevant statutes if necessary - but I believe this can map onto the telecom laws they used against Craig Neindorff (sp?). Any relevant californians feeling like going to jail over a package description? :-( (No, I did not really want this last argument.) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 18:42:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14593 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:42:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14507; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:41:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26823; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:41:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 21:41:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Eivind Eklund cc: Matthew Hunt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Explain to me how junk-buster is different from changing channels when commercials come up... On Mon, 4 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > This describe why you're inconvenienced. Sure, I agree that banners are > inconvenient - I'm none too happy about having to download banners myself. > > But let me do a slight re-phrasing of you: > > "I'm on a thight budget, with 3 other people that use software too. The > last thing I need is to have to pay for the commercial software we use." No, I stated that I was -bandwidth- constrained. Since I'm paying for my bandwidth I should be able to invoke the 'theft' clause as well shouldn't I? > Web pages with banners generally come with a license, too. This license as > often as not explictly forbid modifying the HTML and pictures before > displaying the pages. So, what you're doing is pirating web-pages. I don't > think we should have cracker tools in the ports collection, and I > _especially_ don't think we should have power-tools in the ports collection > labelled as cracker tools. JunkBuster doesn't modify the HTML. You should really check it out before you bash it. > Besides which I believe that filtering those banners is harmful in the long > run - the $.01 to $.08 you rip the web page owner off each time you view a > page without an ad _do_ add up. Consider it my dollar vote to protest in favor of commercial entities finding a less annoying means of capitalization. > Oh, and a new point I just thought of: FreeBSD is likely to be considered > associates-before-the-fact if we distribute something labelled so that it > can be considered a tool for crime. I can look up the relevant statutes if > necessary - but I believe this can map onto the telecom laws they used > against Craig Neindorff (sp?). Any relevant californians feeling like going > to jail over a package description? :-( (No, I did not really want this last > argument.) That would be 'Neidorf'. You should really get better information before trying to draw parallels between this issue the E911 case. I'd walk across the street or call him to get the facts on that one fisthand if I didn't think he wanted to put that whole issue behind him. (He works the same place I do aparently :) /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 19:14:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20143 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:14:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19986; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:13:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA09537; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:13:42 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA01937; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:13:42 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504041342.42915@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 04:13:42 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Matthew Hunt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew N. Dodd on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 09:41:54PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 09:41:54PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > Explain to me how junk-buster is different from changing channels when > commercials come up... > > On Mon, 4 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > This describe why you're inconvenienced. Sure, I agree that banners are > > inconvenient - I'm none too happy about having to download banners myself. > > > > But let me do a slight re-phrasing of you: > > > > "I'm on a thight budget, with 3 other people that use software too. The > > last thing I need is to have to pay for the commercial software we use." > > No, I stated that I was -bandwidth- constrained. Since I'm paying for my > bandwidth I should be able to invoke the 'theft' clause as well shouldn't > I? No. I'm fully aware that you stated that you are bandwidth constrained. The point is: It doesn't matter. You're electing to view pages that contain banners. Implictly in this, you're agreeing to pay for those pages - which you normally do by viewing the banners. The implict part here is sometimes explict, and will probably become more so as time passes. And as to "I should be able to invoke the 'theft' clause as well" - I hope you're not in any way close to serious when you write this. YOU are taking a service which include certain badnwidth-costs, which is all you're directly paying for the service. The bandwidth cost include banners, and you _should_ consider them an intrinsic part of the the content on that page - and incidentally, what pays for keeping the service up. > > Web pages with banners generally come with a license, too. This license as > > often as not explictly forbid modifying the HTML and pictures before > > displaying the pages. So, what you're doing is pirating web-pages. I don't > > think we should have cracker tools in the ports collection, and I > > _especially_ don't think we should have power-tools in the ports collection > > labelled as cracker tools. > > JunkBuster doesn't modify the HTML. 'or pictures'. It modifies the pictures on the page by replacing them with others; if it isn't against the text of the license, it is definately against the intent, which will matter in some jurisdictions. > You should really check it out before you bash it. Why? I'm not bashing it as a particular implementation - I'm saying that the underlying concept of blocking advertisements is flawed, and that we shouldn't especially attempt to make that easier - as it undermines one of the few good sides of commerce on the net. > > Besides which I believe that filtering those banners is harmful in the long > > run - the $.01 to $.08 you rip the web page owner off each time you view a > > page without an ad _do_ add up. > > Consider it my dollar vote to protest in favor of commercial entities > finding a less annoying means of capitalization. The same as doing piracy is a 'dollar vote' against too expensive software? That's not a good enough argument, IMO. If you want to avoid downloading banners, contact the websites you use and try to convince them to have a 'members section' where you can pay them to avoid seeing banners, or get working on micropayment systems so you can pay $.08 to view Dilbert instead of letting an advertiser pay $80 for every thousand that view The Dilbert Zone, or just drop visiting those websites you feel have obnoxious advertising - and tell them about it. Blocking software a la ijb only end up repeating the endless war between crackers/pirates (that's you), and those writing copy/content protection. > > Oh, and a new point I just thought of: FreeBSD is likely to be considered > > associates-before-the-fact if we distribute something labelled so that it > > can be considered a tool for crime. I can look up the relevant statutes if > > necessary - but I believe this can map onto the telecom laws they used > > against Craig Neindorff (sp?). Any relevant californians feeling like going > > to jail over a package description? :-( (No, I did not really want this last > > argument.) > > That would be 'Neidorf'. > > You should really get better information before trying to draw parallels > between this issue the E911 case. I don't even remember if that was the correct case. I remember that there is a California statute against 'instruments for crime' or information which makes things work as an instrument for crime; I'm not certain if it came up in the Neidorf case. I remember having seen it in use about 5 years ago, and I think I remember it being in CUD. I'd have to dig through old CUDs to find it - I haven't saved them (I haven't read CUD for 5 years or so, so it is some time ago). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 19:21:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21371 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:21:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21357 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:21:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA12784; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:20:54 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Eivind Eklund Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 02:23:16 GMT Message-ID: <354d2457.225839725@mail.cetlink.net> References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> In-Reply-To: <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id TAA21362 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998 03:29:39 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >Besides which I believe that filtering those banners is harmful in the long >run - the $.01 to $.08 you rip the web page owner off each time you view a >page without an ad _do_ add up. Rip off? NO WAY. I don't have to view pornography. I can "filter" it to pervent it from coming into my home. Same principle applies for any other information content coming into my home. I can filter it any way I want. In my home, my right to privacy supersedes any advertisers' rights. PHK's magazine analogy was correct. I don't have to look at ads if I don't want to. Put the code in. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 19:22:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21496 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:22:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21428; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:21:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA09646; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:21:31 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA01985; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:21:32 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504042132.04003@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 04:21:32 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Matthew Hunt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew N. Dodd on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 09:41:54PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I forgot a piece here... On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 09:41:54PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > Explain to me how junk-buster is different from changing channels when > commercials come up... Automated and complete - and in a medium where you've got an absolute pay-per-view, not a pay-per-percieved-viewer. Switching channels is included in the overhead for television advertising - automatically removing all banners should not be. My friends upstairs are spending 60% of their waking time making content, and are asking for only one thing in return: That you view the ads that are sold in on the pages. Do you feel that taking all revenues away from them is the right thing to do, just because your download of the content might be slower if you don't steal? Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 19:27:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22292 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:27:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22234 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:26:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA09715; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:26:49 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA02019; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:26:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504042649.61453@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 04:26:49 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: John Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> <354d2457.225839725@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <354d2457.225839725@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:23:16AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:23:16AM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 1998 03:29:39 +0200, Eivind Eklund > wrote: > > >Besides which I believe that filtering those banners is harmful in the long > >run - the $.01 to $.08 you rip the web page owner off each time you view a > >page without an ad _do_ add up. > > Rip off? NO WAY. > > I don't have to view pornography. I can "filter" it to pervent it > from coming into my home. Same principle applies for any other > information content coming into my home. I can filter it any way I > want. In my home, my right to privacy supersedes any advertisers' > rights. What about any content producers rights? Those are those we are talking about - the people that make the pages YOU ARE RIPPING OFF. Those are individuals that put down work into creating the pages, creating the content. Those are the people who put in brain-sweat to write the content you want to download faster. The advertisers don't care, one way or the other. They only pay per advertisement shown. Besides, you're not able to type coherently. There is no privacy involved. And you're not allowed to filter content any way you choose, especially not in the US. You can't do reverse engineering, for instance. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 19:33:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23703 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23694 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:33:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA13851; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:33:21 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Eivind Eklund Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 02:35:44 GMT Message-ID: <354e28ff.227031838@mail.cetlink.net> References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> <354d2457.225839725@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504042649.61453@follo.net> In-Reply-To: <19980504042649.61453@follo.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id TAA23695 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998 04:26:49 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >> I don't have to view pornography. I can "filter" it to pervent it >> from coming into my home. Same principle applies for any other >> information content coming into my home. I can filter it any way I >> want. In my home, my right to privacy supersedes any advertisers' >> rights. >Besides, you're not able to type coherently. There is no privacy involved. On the contrary, there is. You're losing the debate so now you resort to insults. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 19:43:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25277 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25246 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:42:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA09947; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:42:48 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA02096; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:42:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504044244.39282@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 04:42:44 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: John Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> <354d2457.225839725@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504042649.61453@follo.net> <354e28ff.227031838@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <354e28ff.227031838@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:35:44AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:35:44AM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 1998 04:26:49 +0200, Eivind Eklund > wrote: > >>> I don't have to view pornography. I can "filter" it to pervent it >>> from coming into my home. Same principle applies for any other >>> information content coming into my home. I can filter it any way I >>> want. In my home, my right to privacy supersedes any advertisers' >>> rights. >> >> Besides, you're not able to type coherently. There is no privacy involved. > > On the contrary, there is. What about the part before 'besides'? What about _any_ underpinning of your claim? I can agree that there is an issue of being allowed to control what is going on in your own home (which you're not, in any country that I know of). However, that is _not_ the same as privacy. Please come with some form of argument. > You're losing the debate so now you resort to insults. You seem to be unable to answer any arguments, and thus go for language. So, for the understanding-impaired, I'll rephrase: What makes you claim that there is privacy involved? If you can't come up with something that resemble a coherent argument, I will still consider you to be unable to type coherently. Random sentences which follow the general rules of english isn't good enough - there must be coherency at the semantic level, too. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 19:43:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25354 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:43:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25090; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:41:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27442; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 22:41:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Eivind Eklund cc: Matthew Hunt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <19980504041342.42915@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > Blocking software a la ijb only end up repeating the endless war between > crackers/pirates (that's you), and those writing copy/content protection. I beg your pardon. I don't believe that you have any valid basis for calling me a cracker/pirate. You've gone a bit too far too quickly on your moral high horse. > I don't even remember if that was the correct case. I remember that > there is a California statute against 'instruments for crime' or > information which makes things work as an instrument for crime; I'm not > certain if it came up in the Neidorf case. I remember having seen it in > use about 5 years ago, and I think I remember it being in CUD. I'd have > to dig through old CUDs to find it - I haven't saved them (I haven't > read CUD for 5 years or so, so it is some time ago). This isn't the 'criminal paraphernalia' (most of the junk I haul around in my backsack could be considered such) is it? Thats so broad as to be absurd. However, since you seem to be a practicing copyright lawyer I'll have to defer my opinions and conjecture on this issue to your expert judgements. :) /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 19:48:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26391 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:48:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26342; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:48:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27488; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 22:48:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Eivind Eklund cc: Matthew Hunt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <19980504042132.04003@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > Automated and complete - and in a medium where you've got an absolute > pay-per-view, not a pay-per-percieved-viewer. Switching channels is > included in the overhead for television advertising - automatically > removing all banners should not be. We're right now determining the course of future Internet commerce. If stripping annoying crap out of webpages becomes the norm then one might expect less annoying crap overall once content sites realized the error of their ways. Finding a way to make money off the net isn't my problem. It appears to be yours. What I suggest you do is put your employers time to good use and find a solution that makes your customers happy and stop bickering about this. > My friends upstairs are spending 60% of their waking time making > content, and are asking for only one thing in return: That you view the > ads that are sold in on the pages. Do you feel that taking all revenues > away from them is the right thing to do, just because your download of > the content might be slower if you don't steal? I'm not stealing. I'm simply opting not to view ad spam (I just realized something. I'm not using Junk Buster right now so this whole arguement is academic.) You've not answered the Lynx question yet. How is it stealing when I have a web proxy that doesn't pass web-spam to Netscape but not when I use Lynx which doesn't load the images anyway. (Hint: You've got no leg to stand on.) /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 19:51:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26794 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:51:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mph124.rh.psu.edu (mph@MPH124.rh.psu.edu [128.118.126.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26780 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:51:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@mph124.rh.psu.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by mph124.rh.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20593; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:51:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mph) Message-ID: <19980503225126.A20575@mph124.rh.psu.edu> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 22:51:26 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: "Matthew N. Dodd" , Eivind Eklund Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980504042132.04003@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew N. Dodd on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 10:48:19PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 10:48:19PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > You've not answered the Lynx question yet. How is it stealing when I have > a web proxy that doesn't pass web-spam to Netscape but not when I use Lynx > which doesn't load the images anyway. As far as I can tell, most providers "solve" that problem by ensuring that their pages are unreadable in Lynx. :-/ -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://mph124.rh.psu.edu/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 19:55:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27338 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:55:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27318 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA15675; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:55:00 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Eivind Eklund Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 02:57:23 GMT Message-ID: <354f2cb0.227976964@mail.cetlink.net> References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> <354d2457.225839725@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504042649.61453@follo.net> <354e28ff.227031838@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504044244.39282@follo.net> In-Reply-To: <19980504044244.39282@follo.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id TAA27320 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998 04:42:44 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >I can agree that there is an issue of being allowed to control what is going >on in your own home (which you're not, in any country that I know of). >However, that is _not_ the same as privacy. Please come with some form of >argument. It's self evident to most people that they have the right to determine who and what enter their home. >> You're losing the debate so now you resort to insults. > >You seem to be unable to answer any arguments, and thus go for language. >So, for the understanding-impaired, I'll rephrase: What makes you claim that >there is privacy involved? My home is private property. If you're not welcome there, you don't get in. >If you can't come up with something that resemble a coherent argument, I >will still consider you to be unable to type coherently. Consider anything you like. But I will filter what information comes into my home, whether you or your content provider friends like it or not. This argument is a dead horse. Please don't beat it any more. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 20:01:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28367 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:01:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA28357 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:01:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA10288; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:01:29 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id FAA02217; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:01:30 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504050129.52485@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 05:01:29 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980504041342.42915@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew N. Dodd on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 10:41:43PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 10:41:43PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > Blocking software a la ijb only end up repeating the endless war between > > crackers/pirates (that's you), and those writing copy/content protection. > > I beg your pardon. I don't believe that you have any valid basis for > calling me a cracker/pirate. You've gone a bit too far too quickly on > your moral high horse. Ah, so you _do_ have a respect for copyright at some level. Neat - it means there is some way to evoke your feelings ;-) You're employing a crack (that's ijb) to avoid paying for (that's viewing ads) the production of software/content. You may or may not be inside the law - that's not something that I'm qualified to determine. However, it is fairly clear that what you're doing deprive the rightful owner/creator of their payment - which is what is the point of piracy. It might not feel like it, but in practice it has the exact same results. You don't have to like it, but I can't see any reason to retract my statement :-( > > I don't even remember if that was the correct case. I remember that > > there is a California statute against 'instruments for crime' or > > information which makes things work as an instrument for crime; I'm not > > certain if it came up in the Neidorf case. I remember having seen it in > > use about 5 years ago, and I think I remember it being in CUD. I'd have > > to dig through old CUDs to find it - I haven't saved them (I haven't > > read CUD for 5 years or so, so it is some time ago). > > This isn't the 'criminal paraphernalia' (most of the junk I haul around in > my backsack could be considered such) is it? Thats so broad as to be > absurd. Porobably. It was used against people selling blue boxes at one time, and I believe it was attempted employed against Craig (but I might remember wrongly here). > However, since you seem to be a practicing copyright lawyer I'll have to > defer my opinions and conjecture on this issue to your expert judgements. I'm not in any way a practicing lawyer (as if you didn't know that ;-). I attempt to be a practicing ethical human being; I don't even always pass that test... Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 20:10:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00956 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:10:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00883 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:10:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA10455; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:10:20 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id FAA02278; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:10:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504051020.57951@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 05:10:20 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: John Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> <354d2457.225839725@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504042649.61453@follo.net> <354e28ff.227031838@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504044244.39282@follo.net> <354f2cb0.227976964@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <354f2cb0.227976964@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:57:23AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:57:23AM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 1998 04:42:44 +0200, Eivind Eklund > wrote: > > >I can agree that there is an issue of being allowed to control what is going > >on in your own home (which you're not, in any country that I know of). > >However, that is _not_ the same as privacy. Please come with some form of > >argument. > > It's self evident to most people that they have the right to determine > who and what enter their home. That's not privacy. Here's a definition: >From WordNet (r) 1.6 [wn]: privacy n 1: the quality of being secluded from the presence or view of others [syn: {privateness}, {seclusion}] 2: the condition of being concealed or hidden [syn: {privateness}, {secrecy}, {concealment}] I had a a suspicion that what you were really attempting to say was something like the above, which is why I re-phrased that and included it in my reply (the one you re-replied to with "It's self evident", seemingly not having grasped any of my comments :-( > >If you can't come up with something that resemble a coherent argument, I > >will still consider you to be unable to type coherently. > > Consider anything you like. > > But I will filter what information comes into my home, whether you or > your content provider friends like it or not. And you'll go to jail if you do that to commercial software. Sure. You're not allowed to filter & modify individually each byte or DLL that goes into your home. That's the way the law is WRT commercial software - it may or may not be WRT web-pages, but with the direct word-by-word interpretation the US use on their laws, it wouldn't suprise me. > This argument is a dead horse. Please don't beat it any more. Nobody has gone for the point of the argument - "Is there any good reason for us to advertise this capability?" I still don't think there is. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 20:18:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01745 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:18:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01724; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:18:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00441; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:18:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805040318.WAA00441@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: from Tim Vanderhoek at "May 3, 98 08:43:39 pm" To: hoek@hwcn.org Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 22:18:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Vanderhoek said: > On Sun, 3 May 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > I suggest that synergy with industry is not only *not* destructive > > to free software, but actually helps fund it. I believe that > > Synergy is helpful, yes. (In the real world, that is --- just > like Stallman, I can propose worlds where it is not --- they > don't mean anything!). My concern is that the computer industry > may be inherently susceptible to the development of monopolies. > A monopoly is not conduscive to synergy. > This is where companies are motivated to re-contribute the code back to free software, because of the reality of internet support and enhancement. The motivation isn't totally altruistic, and this very mechanism helps to keep software free. It is up to the "contributors" (either commercial or hobby) to put the code out for the public to use. Licenses that a-priori take the freedom away to hold trade secrets will be avoided by the commercial sector, and if such inventions are ever to be created, then that innovative part of the commercial sector will totally avoid such licenses. The advantages of net support (on non-trivial code) will virtually entice companies to re-contribute, without the coercion of the encumbering pseudo-free licenses. Those companies will consider the opportunity cost of re-inventing the wheel all of the time by re-integrating the internet enhancements. If their invention is significant, and supports a competitive advantage, then the companies or major contributors will make the tradeoff. The beauty of the free software licenses (in the case of products that have a network support critical mass) is that they in the real world create a disincentive to keep IP gratuitiously proprietary, where the encumbered pseudo free licenses effectively take that choice away, even if the "to be" proprietary innovation is significant, and of little interest to the internet community at large. > > Most -list readers (including me) agree the BSD license can > bring-about an open software world much more quickly and easily, > but if we assume open software is destined to win regardless of > license, then it is this future 20 years (minimum) that we are > concerned with in choosing a license. History judges futurists > harshly, and 20 years makes my head spin. Heck, that's probably > older than most of the -list participants here... ;-) > (IMO) I suspect that for small, entrepreneurial developments, an Artistic or Netscape type license would be preferable for such a developer. For large and diverse projects, it is important to support freedom of business models, and also important to recognize that the opportunity cost of taking a "free" software project private, and the PR loss shields the free project, without the need for restrictive, encumbering and overbearing religious license terms. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 20:20:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02192 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:20:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02166; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:20:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00468; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:20:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805040320.WAA00468@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <199805040028.RAA03888@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 3, 98 05:28:09 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 22:20:29 -0500 (EST) Cc: freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty said: > > One issue to keep in mind is that is very difficult and costly to > privatize an OS installation like FreeBSD . > I agree, and a paraphrased version of your statement might end up in my signature line. I suggest that someone might want to beat me to it :-). (I don't have time for flamewars right now, lots and lots of work beckons right now.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 20:27:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03406 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:27:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03400 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA18017; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:27:10 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Eivind Eklund Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 03:29:34 GMT Message-ID: <355034a1.230009870@mail.cetlink.net> References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> <354d2457.225839725@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504042649.61453@follo.net> <354e28ff.227031838@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504044244.39282@follo.net> <354f2cb0.227976964@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504051020.57951@follo.net> In-Reply-To: <19980504051020.57951@follo.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id UAA03401 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998 05:10:20 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >> It's self evident to most people that they have the right to determine >> who and what enter their home. > >That's not privacy. Here's a definition: >From WordNet (r) 1.6 [wn]: > > privacy > n 1: the quality of being secluded from the presence or view of > others [syn: {privateness}, {seclusion}] > 2: the condition of being concealed or hidden [syn: {privateness}, > {secrecy}, {concealment}] > You ought to get your head out of your computer and read a book once in a while. Try Webster's: privacy 1b: freedom from unauthorized intrusion >I had a a suspicion that what you were really attempting to say was >something like the above, which is why I re-phrased that and included it in >my reply (the one you re-replied to with "It's self evident", seemingly not >having grasped any of my comments :-( They had so little substance, there was nothing to grasp. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 20:29:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03867 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:29:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03857 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:29:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA10796; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:28:46 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id FAA02393; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:28:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504052846.04376@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 05:28:46 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980504042132.04003@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew N. Dodd on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 10:48:19PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 10:48:19PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > Automated and complete - and in a medium where you've got an absolute > > pay-per-view, not a pay-per-percieved-viewer. Switching channels is > > included in the overhead for television advertising - automatically > > removing all banners should not be. > > We're right now determining the course of future Internet commerce. If > stripping annoying crap out of webpages becomes the norm then one might > expect less annoying crap overall once content sites realized the error of > their ways. Or you can expect less content sites, and _much_ less free content sites. I don't expect you to want to pay for the content - I know I'd rather not. > Finding a way to make money off the net isn't my problem. It appears to > be yours. What I suggest you do is put your employers time to good use > and find a solution that makes your customers happy and stop bickering > about this. I have cow-orkers to do this ;-) However, making sure that I personally get a load of free services is in my personal interest. The fact that _you_ grab the stuff without paying the price (seeing ads) make it less likely that *I* get it for free :-( > > My friends upstairs are spending 60% of their waking time making > > content, and are asking for only one thing in return: That you view the > > ads that are sold in on the pages. Do you feel that taking all revenues > > away from them is the right thing to do, just because your download of > > the content might be slower if you don't steal? > > I'm not stealing. I'm simply opting not to view ad spam (I just realized > something. I'm not using Junk Buster right now so this whole arguement is > academic.) > > You've not answered the Lynx question yet. How is it stealing when I have > a web proxy that doesn't pass web-spam to Netscape but not when I use Lynx > which doesn't load the images anyway. lynx is a known problem, and one that is resolved in one of two ways: (1) Show text ads (at least some do this), and (2) accept it as an overhead cost. For the latter case, lynx is content that the content-providers elect to give out for free, because it's so marginal, and because it doesn't incur them much costs (almost no bandwidth use, for one thing). Not getting income isn't because somebody decided that they just didn't want to do the allow-you-to-earn-money part - it is due to limitations in technology making it harder to deliver ads. There is a difference between a side-effect and a primary effect. > (Hint: You've got no leg to stand on.) I still consider that explictly removing just the banners is akin to copying commercial software, or using public transport without paying, or using the telephone system in ways that give you free calls. More or less all of us have done one or all of these things at some point in time; that doesn't make them right. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 20:35:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04847 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:35:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA04815; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:35:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA18634; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:34:56 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: John Dyson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/kern sysv_shm.c src/sys/vm swap_pager.c vm_fault.c vm_map.c Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 03:37:19 GMT Message-ID: <35513782.230746899@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199805040301.UAA24829@freefall.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <199805040301.UAA24829@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id UAA04826 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 3 May 1998 20:01:45 -0700 (PDT), John Dyson wrote: >dyson 1998/05/03 20:01:45 PDT > > Modified files: > sys/kern sysv_shm.c > sys/vm swap_pager.c vm_fault.c vm_map.c > Log: > Work around some VM bugs, the worst being an overly aggressive > swap space free calculation. More complete fixes will be forthcoming, > in a week. Anything can happen in a week. Maybe the FreeBSD project should consider getting an insurance policy on your health and life. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 21:04:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09588 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:04:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09569 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id VAA23574; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:04:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 21:04:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Richard Blue cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: sorry In-Reply-To: <199805032349.QAA16809@mailtod-101.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What does this has to do with FreeBSD Richard? I think we need freebsd-cretin so we can post messages like that on that list. *sigh* -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux -- DOS of the Unix world. On Sun, 3 May 1998, Richard Blue wrote: >i was banned from chatweb,i didnt know i couldnt say certain things >because i didnt read the rules. im really sorry i broke the rules but >want one more chance. what i dont uderstand is how others say things and >are not banned,its not fair. but i am sorry i acted that way. PLEASE >LET ME COME BACK TO CHATWEB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 21:15:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11619 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:15:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11588; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:14:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id VAA24439; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:14:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 21:14:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Mailing list stats? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan, do you have any stats on the amount of traffic increase on @freebsd.org mailing lists and the number of subscribed users increase? The reason I say traffic is that a lot of messages to -questions seem to be coming from people not on the mailing list itself. Thanks, -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux -- DOS of the Unix world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 21:16:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12031 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11963 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:16:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA01528; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:16:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:16:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Eivind Eklund cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <19980504050129.52485@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > Ah, so you _do_ have a respect for copyright at some level. Neat - it > means there is some way to evoke your feelings ;-) No, my feelings are evoked when someone tries label me something that I'm not. > You're employing a crack (that's ijb) to avoid paying for (that's viewing > ads) the production of software/content. You may or may not be inside the > law - that's not something that I'm qualified to determine. Just because the system is broken and they account for 'hits' via the HTTP GET of a graphic image doesn't make me a criminal when I don't load the image with the page. HTTP/HTML does not require that I load images at all. > However, it is fairly clear that what you're doing deprive the rightful > owner/creator of their payment - which is what is the point of piracy. > It might not feel like it, but in practice it has the exact same > results. You don't have to like it, but I can't see any reason to > retract my statement :-( Again, I don't see how I'm at fault when you (the seller of ad space) fail to accurately track usage. If TV and Radio stations sold advertising the way you do nobody would advertise as the statement 'we -think- your add will be played 5 times a day but aren't quite sure.' would be highly offensive to the people buying advertising space from you. What you (the seller of advertising space) need to do is find a better way of accounting for the content of the HTML you are spewing to the browser and count the number of times you send an tag of a particular URL instead of the number of times that url is accessed. > Porobably. It was used against people selling blue boxes at one time, > and I believe it was attempted employed against Craig (but I might > remember wrongly here). You remember poorly. Black boxes and Red boxes were more of a problem. > I'm not in any way a practicing lawyer (as if you didn't know that ;-). > I attempt to be a practicing ethical human being; I don't even always > pass that test... Striving for upright ethis is indeed a good goal though passing the buck and requiring a particular behavior in order to remain ethical in light ofsomeone's dishonesty as an advertising provider is another. If you are not informing your clients of how many tiems you requested a browser load their ad you are guilty of fraud. Put that in your ethical pipe and smoke it. :) (I really do enjoy these lively arguements; please don't take any aparent hostility as a personal attack. I really do have a great deal of respect for you and the work you've done for FreeBSD.) /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 21:17:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12207 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:17:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net (pm3-3-44.stratos.net [207.86.132.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12169 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) From: drifter@stratos.net Received: from stratos.net (localhost.net [127.0.0.1]) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA12248; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805040413.AAA12248@stratos.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Ollivier Robert cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: device busy... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 02:35:18 +0200." <19980504023518.A2789@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 00:13:47 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > According to Lanny Baron: > > Anyone know how to umount a device like a cdrom when umount /cdrom comes > > back with device busy, and you do a ps -aux and see nothing going on with > > the cdrom? > > Use lsof from ports to find which processes have opened a file or > device. It is much more usable than our fstat. > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #8: Tue Apr 21 02:45:53 CEST 1998 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > Just as a note, I tried umount /usr a couple days ago when I was backing up some file systems. I was in single user mode. It would not allow me to, saying the device was busy. So I remounted /usr, and did an lsof, and found no files using /usr except lsof and more, which the output of lsof was being piped to. This happened to me one other time. Does anyone have any ideas? -Drifter@stratos.NOWAY.net -- drifter@stratos.nospam.net (remove nospam to send) "Ever notice that in every commercial about the Internet, advertising geniuses can't resist having a bunch of kids staring into a monitor, awe- struck, looking at a whale jumping out of the ocean? Or is it just me?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 21:24:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13309 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:24:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13281 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:24:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA10278; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:19:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:19:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Amancio Hasty cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3D "blender" package from NeoGeo now released. In-Reply-To: <199805040055.RAA04394@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 3 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > If you ever wonder why linux is getting ahead , cold or no response > to key strategic technologies such as what "blender" represents is > one of the reasons that linux is getting ahead of FreeBSD . We > have a FreeBSD friendly vendor let us no lose this relationship. One useful response would be to organize the page commercial/software.html from its current status as one big blob into something more useful, ie. grouped by category. I didn't even see the Blender listed there. Or the oss sound people (does their product work with newer FreeBSD?). The problem with trying to convince some of the people here to use this package is that I don't have the slightest idea of what to do with a sophisticated 3D package... -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 21:42:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15923 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:42:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15905 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:42:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01021; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:42:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805040442.VAA01021@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3D "blender" package from NeoGeo now released. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 00:19:41 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 21:42:49 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good point , however the beta release of "blender" is not aimed at the newbie or tutorial level --- that hopefully will be for the later stage of the test period or release period of "blender". We do have graphic experts in-house so it is a matter of them volunteering their time to evaluate or test "blender". Cheers, Amancio > On Sun, 3 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > If you ever wonder why linux is getting ahead , cold or no response > > to key strategic technologies such as what "blender" represents is > > one of the reasons that linux is getting ahead of FreeBSD . We > > have a FreeBSD friendly vendor let us no lose this relationship. > > One useful response would be to organize the page > commercial/software.html from its current status as one big blob > into something more useful, ie. grouped by category. I didn't > even see the Blender listed there. Or the oss sound people (does > their product work with newer FreeBSD?). > > The problem with trying to convince some of the people here to > use this package is that I don't have the slightest idea of what > to do with a sophisticated 3D package... > > > -- > Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! > tIM...HOEk > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 21:43:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15970 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15958 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.Beta3) with SMTP id AAA18218; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:42:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:42:56 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: drifter@stratos.net cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: device busy... In-Reply-To: <199805040413.AAA12248@stratos.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998 drifter@stratos.net wrote: > Just as a note, I tried umount /usr a couple days ago when I was > backing up some file systems. I was in single user mode. It would not > allow me to, saying the device was busy. So I remounted /usr, and did > an lsof, and found no files using /usr except lsof and more, which the > output > of lsof was being piped to. > This happened to me one other time. Does anyone have any ideas? What was your working directory at the time? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 22:06:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20078 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:06:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20045; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:06:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA17009; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:01:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: "Matthew N. Dodd" cc: Eivind Eklund , Matthew Hunt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 3 May 1998, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > Finding a way to make money off the net isn't my problem. It appears to [...] > I'm not stealing. I'm simply opting not to view ad spam (I just realized [...] To my perhaps simple ears, some of the arguments here sound an awful lot like "I'm not going to pay taxes; it's my damn money and funding roads is not my problem, it's the government's problem." > We're right now determining the course of future Internet commerce. If > stripping annoying crap out of webpages becomes the norm then one might > expect less annoying crap overall once content sites realized the error of > their ways. Then the correct solution is not to view pages that have crap ads. Or, even better, email to the advertiser bitching about their ad. Typically, advertisers are very sensitive to criticism, if you speak to the right people (ie. don't email webmaster@whatever.com, send a proper postal letter or phone call to the company, something which demonstrates more than spur-of-the-moment interest). All this talk about the right to filter information entering one's home is quite nice. However, the right not to distribute information is being conveniently ommitted. You have a 100% right (not a legal right, but an ethical right most of us will agree) to filter information that you own. You do not own information until you've paid for it. You've not paid for certain types of information unless you've given the company a statistical chance of selling a unit(s) of their product to you. If you filter ads, that statistcal chance falls to near zero and you have not paid for the information. Oh god. Now you're going to argue that information wants to be free and that no one owns it. Until you suggest a better way of paying for its production (than the micropayments effected by advertising), then leave this argument for the philosophers. > You've not answered the Lynx question yet. How is it stealing when I have > a web proxy that doesn't pass web-spam to Netscape but not when I use Lynx > which doesn't load the images anyway. > > (Hint: You've got no leg to stand on.) I will attempt to ignore the vitriolic comment, although in saying so I've already failed. :( The obvious answer is that you're only stealing if you take something away. In the case of Lynx, it was never given to you, so you aren't taking it away (ie. it's the advertiser's responsibility to make sure that their information is compatible with your software, within reason). In the case of a delibrate, explicit _ad_removal_ (specifically) filter, you are intentionally taking away their revenues for service provided to you. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 22:14:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21638 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:14:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21546; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA01948; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:13:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: Eivind Eklund , Matthew Hunt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > Oh god. Now you're going to argue that information wants to be > free and that no one owns it. Until you suggest a better way of > paying for its production (than the micropayments effected by > advertising), then leave this argument for the philosophers. Why did I know someone was going to say this. Sheehs. Information does not want to be free. > I will attempt to ignore the vitriolic comment, although in > saying so I've already failed. :( The obvious answer is that > you're only stealing if you take something away. In the case of > Lynx, it was never given to you, so you aren't taking it away > (ie. it's the advertiser's responsibility to make sure that their > information is compatible with your software, within reason). In > the case of a delibrate, explicit _ad_removal_ (specifically) > filter, you are intentionally taking away their revenues for > service provided to you. You demonstrate a falwed understanding of how HTML/HTTP works. Anything your browser shows you has been pulled, not pushed. We're talking about software that turns off loading of images that match a specific pattern. This isn't filtering as such. /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 22:50:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25945 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:50:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA25939; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA21542; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:45:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: "John S. Dyson" cc: hoek@hwcn.org, freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <199805040318.WAA00441@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 3 May 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > and enhancement. The motivation isn't totally altruistic, and Hehe. That's what Adam Smith said. As it turns-out, any functioning society depends on some amount of altruism. :) > The beauty of the free software licenses (in the case of products that > have a network support critical mass) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That's key. One of the problems arising then is the movement of a large software project from proprietary -> open. Netscape, having lost a monopoly they never quite had, made the move out of desparation. What would it take for this move to happen with a LARGE project that doesn't have any equivalent either free or proprietary? The 'net by itself is very poor at begining new large projects. Consider the lack of a free Office competitor. The solution to this is to convince competitors of LARGE proprietary project that the only way they can produce an equivalent product before the original developer reaches critical mass and becomes Microsoft II: The Trilogy Completes is to leverage the 'net. Hopefully this is something Netscape will prove. GPL tries to handle the development of a LARGE proprietary product with its viral nature. If Netscape is succesful, then I would consider it an argument that the viral nature of the GPL is quite unnecessary (in addition to being damn annoying and even harmful). Like I said, time will tell. Until the software world has settled into its final form, I reserve all final judgement. In the meantime, I am quite content to play the part of a cog. :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 23:06:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27729 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:06:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from saten.dyn.ml.org (106ppp10.gulftel.com [208.226.46.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27710; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:06:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (advocacy@localhost) by saten.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA00494; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:03:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:03:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Jonathan Lemon cc: Nicole , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <19980503172238.09469@right.PCS> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Actually, it would be nice if M$ would do that, perhaps it would greatly > reduce the bugcount in their software and make it more useable. :-) > -- > Jonathan That would be a cool thing for M$ to do, that way some people would find out M$ 'borrowed' it from FreeBSD... and the word would spread until everyone knows that M$ is full of annoying worms. Those people would then goto ftp.freebsd.org and download the installation diskette and send back their M$ purchase. This would cause M$ to lose market share, and money.. forcing them to stop selling OS's, and die. Just a thought... Phillip Salzman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 23:21:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA29888 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:21:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com (ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA29861 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:20:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA00441; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:18:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 02:18:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Matthew N. Dodd" cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > image with the page. HTTP/HTML does not require that I load images at > all. What does this have to do with images? Lynx doesn't load images. It's just as wrong to filter ads from Lynx as it is from Netscape. > Again, I don't see how I'm at fault when you (the seller of ad space) fail > to accurately track usage. You are delibrately and explicitly circumventing their tracking system (or whatever system you choose to talk about). An analogy would be helpful. If I say something that offends you, perhaps I use the expression "What the heck", and you are offended, but I have not intentionally offended you (the expression is quite acceptable in my cultural vocabulary), then that is not my fault. If, however, I choose an expression that I know you will find offensive, and I choose this particular expression expressly because you will find it offensive, then I am at fault. I have no right to yell "$@#! you!" at you everytime I see you. > If TV and Radio stations sold advertising the way you do nobody would > advertise as the statement 'we -think- your add will be played 5 times a > day but aren't quite sure.' would be highly offensive to the people buying > advertising space from you. They, in effect, do. The actual phrase is "We think you ad will be heard by 5 people a day, but we really aren't sure how many people are listening at any given moment." Advertisers buy advertising on a statistical basis (although, I suspect, somewhat of an intuitive statistical basis :). > Striving for upright ethis is indeed a good goal though passing the buck > and requiring a particular behavior in order to remain ethical in light > ofsomeone's dishonesty as an advertising provider is another. > > If you are not informing your clients of how many tiems you requested a > browser load their ad you are guilty of fraud. > > Put that in your ethical pipe and smoke it. :) Huh? -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 23:27:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00907 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:27:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com (ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA00899; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA00451; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:25:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 02:25:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Matthew N. Dodd" cc: Tim Vanderhoek , Eivind Eklund , Matthew Hunt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > Information does not want to be free. Then pay for it. > You demonstrate a falwed understanding of how HTML/HTTP works. > > Anything your browser shows you has been pulled, not pushed. Bah. And I suppose your email reader is going to pull this paragraph but not pull the next one. Perhaps you should pull alternating words from my message. That would certainly save your bandwidth. > We're talking about software that turns off loading of images that match a > specific pattern. This isn't filtering as such. No we're not. We're talking about filtering ads. Eivind long ago agreed that a program which filters large, fat, unnecessary gifs has definate potential use. I agreed with him implicitly. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 3 23:50:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03212 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:50:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com (ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA03207 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:50:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA00486; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:49:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 02:49:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > and enhancement. The motivation isn't totally altruistic, and > > Hehe. That's what Adam Smith said. As it turns-out, any > functioning society depends on some amount of altruism. :) Reading over my own message, I'm sure there's someone just waiting to jump on me for this. :) Adam Smith did (as far as I understand, anyways) expect some amount of simple humanity from participants in his economies. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 01:11:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA12564 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:11:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zwei.siemens.at (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12524; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:10:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at) Received: from pc8811.gud.siemens.at (root@firix [10.1.143.100]) by zwei.siemens.at with ESMTP id KAA14634; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:08:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc8811.gud.siemens.at (pc8811.gud.siemens.co.at [195.3.22.159]) by pc8811.gud.siemens.at (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08217; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:09:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:09:19 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Siemens Austria AG From: Marino Ladavac To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley Cc: FreeBSD advocacy list , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass , Nicole , Eivind Eklund Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-May-98 Greg Lehey wrote: > Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? > You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. > Solaris 2.5.1: $ grep Regents /bin/* mailq: The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. mailstats: The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. newaliases: The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. vgrind:# Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California. HP-UX B.10.20 $ head /etc/copyright (c)Copyright 1983-1996 Hewlett-Packard Co., All Rights Reserved. (c)Copyright 1979, 1980, 1983, 1985-1993 The Regents of the Univ. of California (c)Copyright 1980, 1984, 1986 Novell, Inc. (c)Copyright 1986-1992 Sun Microsystems, Inc. (c)Copyright 1985, 1986, 1988 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (c)Copyright 1989-1993 The Open Software Foundation, Inc. (c)Copyright 1986 Digital Equipment Corp. (c)Copyright 1990 Motorola, Inc. (c)Copyright 1990, 1991, 1992 Cornell University (c)Copyright 1989-1991 The University of Maryland SINIX-Y 5.42 $ dbx a.out dbx 2.2A00 SINIX (Apr 18 1996) Copyright (C) Siemens Nixdorf Informationssysteme AG 1995 Base: BSD, Copyright (C) The Regents of the University of California All rights reserved etc. Okay, so the copyright notices (aside from HP) are not in extremely visible files, but they are indeed there. /Marino ---------------------------------- Marino Ladavac Date: 04-May-98 Time: 09:58:53 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 01:18:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA13655 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:18:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA13605 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:18:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA25221; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:18:03 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980504111800.32162@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:18:00 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: ac199@hwcn.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:25:23AM -0400 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Tim Vanderhoek, were spotted writing this on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:25:23AM -0400: > > You demonstrate a falwed understanding of how HTML/HTTP works. > > > > Anything your browser shows you has been pulled, not pushed. > > Bah. And I suppose your email reader is going to pull this > paragraph but not pull the next one. Perhaps you should pull > alternating words from my message. That would certainly save > your bandwidth. You demonstrate a flawed understanding of how SMTP/POP/IMAP work. They do not allow you to choose parts of the message to pull because that would not be useful. Your analogy is doubly flawed because HTTP in reality does not "allow" you to pull off "parts" of a page. A "page" is something which is recognized by browser but not by HTTP protocol, in which you specifically and separately request each image/other file. > > We're talking about software that turns off loading of images that match a > > specific pattern. This isn't filtering as such. > > No we're not. We're talking about filtering ads. No we're not. We're talking about (strictly) filtering HTTP connections that math a certain patterns usually based on their target URL. Filtering as in, never initiating them. The software gives you more freedom to choose what you want or do not want to pull from network, using the HTTP protocol. And you complain because you're given more freedom. Bah. I'm unimpressed. > Eivind long > ago agreed that a program which filters large, fat, unnecessary > gifs has definate potential use. I agreed with him implicitly. 'Unnecessary' is in the beholder's eye, and you undermine your argument beautifully yourself. For me, _every_ ad is an unnecessary, large fat gif (or jpeg or whatever). What you want, however, is that I would be unable to define precisely just what is "large, fat, unnecessary" for me and what isn't. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 01:57:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16823 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:57:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA16818 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:57:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA02815; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:57:15 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980504115714.07998@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:57:14 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Eivind Eklund Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> <354d2457.225839725@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504042649.61453@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <19980504032939.07389@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:29:39AM +0200 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Eivind Eklund, were spotted writing this on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:29:39AM +0200: > [taken to -chat] > > On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 08:59:31PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > On Sun, 3 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > Should't this be under ATT (for "Automated Theft Tool")? ;-) > > > > > > Refusing to download ads from the WWW is very bad practice. Those ads are > > > paying for the service you're using. I'm not even certain we should have > > > the above program as a port - I don't think we'd have a 'automated > > > crack-on-download' tool, for instance, and this is actually fairly similar. > > > > I strongly disagree. > > Arguments! Come up with arguments! Oh, that's easy. The argument is the nature of the medium. The Web is a medium which works according to HTTP protocol. That protocol is built around a principle of 'you go and get a file if you want it'. _Nowhere_ in the protocol is a notion that you must go and fetch .jpg file if it's in a tag in a HTML file (lynx doesn't, is it HTML-compliant? Thank you). Although the protocol _could_ have been built to unquestionably transmit image files in the same data stream used for the main HTML file, it wasn't, and for a good reason - it would be ugly design and inconvinient for the consumer. This choice has set the nature of the medium. Your argument that somehow, when entering a Web site I "impicitly" agree to view its images is silly and wrong. There is no agreement, neither explicit nor implicit (if there was, turning off loading images in Netscape would be wrong and immoral, do you think it is?). What I do is use my software to pull an HTML file off a site using HTTP protocol. The fact that for some time, my software wasn't sophisticated enough to let me choose which additional files to pull off the same site doesn't mean it's morally wrong for it to be sophisticated. Your argument about those silly "licenses" on sites is also wrong. They're invalid and unenforcable. First of all, a "page" is not an abstraction which exists on protocol level. A "page" is something out together by my software from separate entitites I pull from a site, so there's no reverse-engineering in my putting it together from a subset of the whole set of possible entitites (again, browsing with images turned off is an important special case). Here's an analogy for you. Suppose I invented magical ink that erases profane words from paper automatically and leaves other intact. I buy a book published by your friend content-maker and apply this ink before reading. Now, a friend of yours has a "license" on the book's cover which tells me I must not change book's content before "displaying" (i.e. reading) it. Am I breaking the law? Your friend will get laughed at in court. The reason he'll get laughed at in court is that the _medium_ of books doesn't allow silly "licenses" that enforce me to read in the book what he wants me to. He cannot force me to read all chapters or none, or not to read 3rd chapter if I'm under 18 (if I bought the book legally). Or to read all the profane words. The reason, however, that this can't be a real story is that there isn't, and unlikely to be any time soon, such an ink. The medium of books doesn't allow it. _That_ is the sole reason I will see those profane words (assuming for an instant I don't want to), and not because it's morally or legally wrong to automatically erase them for my own reading. Well, the medium of Web _does_ allow it, whether your friends want it or not. And using this ability of the medium is neither piracy nor morally wrong, just as it wouldn't be morally wrong to automatically erase profane words (or adevrtisements, or any other material I DO NOT WANT TO SEE) in a book. If it were easily possible, those who insert profane words (or advertisements, etc.) should have been looking for another medium. Which brings me to the next point. Your friends the content-makers say I'm ripping them off. They say I want a free ride on their content. Bullshit, if you excuse my language. THEY want a free ride - on the medium. They're using a medium (Web, HTTP) which explicitly lets its user to pull or not to pull different images/other files separately, and they want to brainwash ME, a user of the medium, to give up this freedom of mine and get their ads no matter what. Their attempts to produce content are appreciated; their attemtps to force down my throat what I don't want (and don't have to, by the nature of the medium) to see are not. Should they desire that I get their ads no matter what, they should look INTO a DIFFERENT MEDIUM which allows that. Was that clear enough? For example, they can use ActiveX controls which display ads on my Windows desktop, and make their site unbrowsable without ActiveX. Or they can use .PDF file with graphics built-in the file and ask me to download them. What? Do I hear a response to this already? They probably don't want to! (ah, that was a wild guess). They want to enjoy universal portability and availability of the Web medium, and don't want to use more restricted mediums of ActiveX-enabled browsers or PDF files. Well, then THEY want a free ride: to use a medium because it's so universal and portable and yet ignore its nature and try to force me (morally or in whatever different way) to get all their images, ads or no ads, from their site. Your arguments about ijb being a 'cracker' tools or about its user being 'pirates' are just way too silly to address, esp. in the light of what I wrote above. They would be offensive if they weren't so laughable. Sincerely, Anatoly. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 02:05:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17487 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:05:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17471 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:05:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA04303; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:04:56 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980504120454.12416@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:04:54 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: ac199@hwcn.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:18:53AM -0400 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Tim Vanderhoek, were spotted writing this on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:18:53AM -0400: > On Mon, 4 May 1998, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > > image with the page. HTTP/HTML does not require that I load images at > > all. > > What does this have to do with images? Lynx doesn't load images. > It's just as wrong to filter ads from Lynx as it is from > Netscape. When you turn off automatic image loading in Netscape, you stop downloading all the banner ads as a result. Please explain why this doesn't make you a pirate in Eivind's eyes. [Hint: you don't know what you are talking about] Sincerely, Anatoly. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 03:21:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27198 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:21:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newport-1-13.quick.net (josh@newport-1-13.quick.net [207.212.160.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27188; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:20:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from josh@newport-1-13.quick.net) Received: (from josh@localhost) by newport-1-13.quick.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12154; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from josh) Message-ID: <19980504031954.A11688@newport-1-13.quick.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 03:19:54 -0700 From: Josh Gilliam To: Marino Ladavac , Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD advocacy list , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass , Nicole , Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.4 In-Reply-To: X-Editor: nvi 1.79 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386 X-IRC: soil Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? > > You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. Here is the only one I found in Windows 95: $ what /dos/windows/ftp.exe ftp.exe Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. -- Josh Gilliam 5333 E Los Arboles Ave 1 714 633 6499 Orange CA 92869-4216 USA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 03:45:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA00317 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:45:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA00284; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:44:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03567; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:44:53 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA03606; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:44:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504124448.41478@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:44:48 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: sos@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> <199805040655.XAA03662@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199805040655.XAA03662@hub.freebsd.org>; from sos@FreeBSD.ORG on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 11:55:29PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 11:55:29PM -0700, sos@FreeBSD.ORG wrote: > In reply to Eivind Eklund who wrote: > > On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 01:51:41PM -0700, Matthew Hunt wrote: > > Refusing to download ads from the WWW is very bad practice. Those ads are > > paying for the service you're using. I'm not even certain we should have > > the above program as a port - I don't think we'd have a 'automated > > crack-on-download' tool, for instance, and this is actually fairly similar. > > I beg your pardon ?? What planet are you from ?? The same as you - otherwise you wouldn't get my e-mail. > I think that those that put adds on the pages are the bad guys, they > STEAL my bandwith and MY money form the extra connection time it takes to > download, so it should be under AATT ('Automated Anti Theft Tool!) They're also providing the content of the page. If you consider the ads bothersome - then don't view pages containing ads! I'll say it again: The ads are paying for the service. If you drop watching the ads, then you provide less payback to those that develop free services, and thus less opportunity (and possibly less incentive). If you use this kind of software, you're asking for more services to go for membership only. BTW: I don't know if you noticed the smiley after that suggestion for name. > I welcome this exiting new piece of very usefull software, and its going > to be installed here as soon as I get the time to do it. Sure, it is useful. It makes things easier for the consumers at the cost of the producers - giving the producers nothing back, while cutting the costs of the consumers by perhaps 1/3. It is useful the same way as getting free phone service and not paying your tickets on the bus is useful - it gives you a better service at the cost of the provider. This is contrary to long-term survival of the medium (buses get shut down, websites get advertisement-protection, force people to use Java/ActiveX, or switch to a pay-for-access model). That's why it is bad practice. > I'm pretty sure this will be a hit amongst alot of our users... > In fact I think that alot of ISP's will take this as a gift > from heaven :) Sure. Is that _the_ criterion for something being right? (I could come up with a lot of examples of how doing things marketingwise right would be technically wrong, and counter to long-term strategy. I'm certain you can, too, so I won't.) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 03:57:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02235 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:57:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA02217 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03978; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:56:58 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA03651; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:56:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504125650.03205@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:56:50 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: John Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> <354d2457.225839725@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504042649.61453@follo.net> <354e28ff.227031838@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504044244.39282@follo.net> <354f2cb0.227976964@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504051020.57951@follo.net> <355034a1.230009870@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <355034a1.230009870@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:29:34AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:29:34AM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 1998 05:10:20 +0200, Eivind Eklund > wrote: > > >> It's self evident to most people that they have the right to determine > >> who and what enter their home. > > > >That's not privacy. Here's a definition: > >From WordNet (r) 1.6 [wn]: > > > > privacy > > n 1: the quality of being secluded from the presence or view of > > others [syn: {privateness}, {seclusion}] > > 2: the condition of being concealed or hidden [syn: {privateness}, > > {secrecy}, {concealment}] > > > > You ought to get your head out of your computer and read a book once > in a while. Try Webster's: > > privacy > 1b: freedom from unauthorized intrusion This makes sense, as long as you have the concept of 'interacting observer' down pat - and use that as your form of intrusion. Data is not an observer. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 04:24:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA09073 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:24:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from sos@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA09035; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sos) Message-Id: <199805041124.EAA09035@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <19980504124448.41478@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "May 4, 98 12:44:48 pm" To: eivind@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 04:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: sos@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In reply to Eivind Eklund who wrote: > > > I think that those that put adds on the pages are the bad guys, they > > STEAL my bandwith and MY money form the extra connection time it takes to > > download, so it should be under AATT ('Automated Anti Theft Tool!) > > They're also providing the content of the page. If you consider the ads > bothersome - then don't view pages containing ads! Thats exactly what this is about, now I got a tool that can automate this for me, great !! > I'll say it again: The ads are paying for the service. If you drop > watching the ads, then you provide less payback to those that develop free > services, and thus less opportunity (and possibly less incentive). If you > use this kind of software, you're asking for more services to go for > membership only. I'll say it again, THIS IS A FREE WORLD, and nobody can dictate that you should download the adds period. If that means that some of those "poor" suckers doing "free" websites have to close, well so be it, its not the end of the world, its a victory damn it! Its obvious that you must be affiliated with one of those companies doing this kind of business to have this attitude. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 04:31:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA10433 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:31:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA10427 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05851; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:31:23 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA03765; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:31:18 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504133118.00078@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:31:18 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> <354d2457.225839725@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504042649.61453@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> <19980504115714.07998@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980504115714.07998@techunix.technion.ac.il>; from Anatoly Vorobey on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 11:57:14AM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 11:57:14AM +0300, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > You, Eivind Eklund, were spotted writing this on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:29:39AM +0200: > > Arguments! Come up with arguments! > [... on the HTTP protocol sending out parts of the data as different streams snipped ...] > Your argument about those silly "licenses" on sites is also wrong. > They're invalid and unenforcable. You'll have to take those cases with e.g. ZDnet and C/NET, not me - I'm not a lawyer trying to enforce the licenses, I'm a private citizen trying to argue reasonable conduct - and trying to get people to actually think about what they're doing. > First of all, a "page" is not an abstraction which exists on protocol > level. A "page" is something out together by my software from separate > entitites I pull from a site, so there's no reverse-engineering in my > putting it together from a subset of the whole set of possible entitites > (again, browsing with images turned off is an important special case). I didn't claim that this was reverse-engineering. I claimed that reverse-engineering was a special case of filtering, and one that is illegal in the US. (Most software licenses in the US state that you can't modify the executable of a program - I don't know if that holds up there, either. I know it doesn't hold up in my end of the world.) > Here's an analogy for you. Suppose I invented magical ink that > erases profane words from paper automatically and leaves other > intact. I buy a book published by your friend content-maker and > apply this ink before reading. Now, a friend of yours has > a "license" on the book's cover which tells me I must not change > book's content before "displaying" (i.e. reading) it. Am I > breaking the law? Your friend will get laughed at in court. Books are fairly limited in how they can be licensed, due to special consideration being put on them in laws. Other content may be licensed different ways, though there are limits on the licenses there too. > Which brings me to the next point. Your friends the content-makers > say I'm ripping them off. They say I want a free ride on their > content. Bullshit, if you excuse my language. THEY want a > free ride - on the medium. They're using a medium (Web, HTTP) which > explicitly lets its user to pull or not to pull different > images/other files separately, and they want to brainwash ME, a user > of the medium, to give up this freedom of mine and get their ads > no matter what. Their attempts to produce content are appreciated; > their attemtps to force down my throat what I don't want (and don't > have to, by the nature of the medium) to see are not. They're not attempting to "force down your throath what you don't want to have" - they're offering you a service for a certain pay. This payment happens to consist of viewing and downloading advertising. For a limited set of users (those using Lynx and browsing without images) they even offer the service for free. What is your model for paying for content? That's what we're talking about here. Talking about 'nature of the medium' is IMO a strawman argument - how do you think the production of content should be paid for? I'm not talking about 'making it profitable' - I'm talking of paying actual costs. > Should they desire that I get their ads no matter what, they should look > INTO a DIFFERENT MEDIUM which allows that. Was that clear enough? For > example, they can use ActiveX controls which display ads on my Windows > desktop, and make their site unbrowsable without ActiveX. Or they can use > .PDF file with graphics built-in the file and ask me to download them. It's not bloody difficult to make the web a limited medium where you can't browse without images, and can't download pages without seeing ads. It require that ads and HTML pages are downloaded from the same domain, but apart from that it should be technically fairly easy, in the precense of cookies and images (and dropping users that don't have cookies and images aren't considered a large loss any longer). > Your arguments about ijb being a 'cracker' tools or about > its user being 'pirates' are just way too silly to address, > esp. in the light of what I wrote above. They would be offensive > if they weren't so laughable. "The nature of software is to be copiable, so calling my payment-removal-system a cracker-tool would be offensive if it wasn't so laughtable." "The nature of software is to be a stream of bytes, not distinct executables, so calling my program for automatically modifying executables to remove the stated copyright and the copyprotection a crackers tool would be offensive if it wasn't so laughtable." I'm fully willing to offend. People that don't think clearly easily get offended by labels. (I try not to be, but that doesn't always work ;-) The nature of pirates is that they take content without paying. Be that music, books, software, or web-pages - it doesn't matter. The nature of crackers (in the original meaning, not the one the original hackers are trying to push over) is removing copy-protection. Now, you might say that the protection on most web-pages is laughtably simple - it is. That does IMO not change the nature of task - namely, separating the payment system (in this case the ads) and the content (software vs web-pages). BTW: "A lot of my best friends are pirates" - I'm not in a position where I can judge people for electing to be pirates (there isn't many years since I copied software myself), but I _can_ attempt to make them aware of what they're doing. Though it is hard for them when it is so convenient to work around the system. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 04:53:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13344 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:53:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA13334; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-52.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.52]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA16635; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:53:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id GAA07744; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:53:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805041153.GAA07744@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list From: David Kelly Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-reply-to: Message from Phillip Salzman of "Mon, 04 May 1998 01:03:57 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 06:53:07 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Phillip Salzman writes: > > > > Actually, it would be nice if M$ would do that, perhaps it would greatly > > reduce the bugcount in their software and make it more useable. :-) > > -- > > Jonathan > > > That would be a cool thing for M$ to do, that way some people would > find out M$ 'borrowed' it from FreeBSD... and the word would spread > until everyone knows that M$ is full of annoying worms. Those people > would then goto ftp.freebsd.org and download the installation diskette > and send back their M$ purchase. > > This would cause M$ to lose market share, and money.. forcing them > to stop selling OS's, and die. I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well, at least not much in IBM scale. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 04:54:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13596 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:54:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA13587; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:54:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07976; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:54:44 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA03890; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:54:45 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504135439.37433@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:54:39 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: sos@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980504124448.41478@follo.net> <199805041124.EAA09035@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199805041124.EAA09035@hub.freebsd.org>; from sos@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 04:24:42AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 04:24:42AM -0700, sos@FreeBSD.ORG wrote: > In reply to Eivind Eklund who wrote: > > > > > I think that those that put adds on the pages are the bad guys, they > > > STEAL my bandwith and MY money form the extra connection time it takes to > > > download, so it should be under AATT ('Automated Anti Theft Tool!) > > > > They're also providing the content of the page. If you consider the ads > > bothersome - then don't view pages containing ads! > > Thats exactly what this is about, now I got a tool that can automate > this for me, great !! You're dropping the _entire_ pages? Or you want to grab the content and avoid the bothersome ads? (Yes, I agree that they're bothersome. I've just not seen any alternative I don't feel as even _more_ bothersome.) >> I'll say it again: The ads are paying for the service. If you drop >> watching the ads, then you provide less payback to those that develop >> free services, and thus less opportunity (and possibly less incentive). >> If you use this kind of software, you're asking for more services to go >> for membership only. > > I'll say it again, THIS IS A FREE WORLD, and nobody can dictate that you > should download the adds period. If that means that some of those "poor" > suckers doing "free" websites have to close, well so be it, its not the > end of the world, its a victory damn it! Ah - so you don't want websites to provide free content, such as what e.g. www.news.com provides? How do you want your content, then? And I agree that dictating that you download ads is effectively impossible. I won't let that stop me from saying that I think not downloading ads is an unwise move, and that I think you're leeching. These are my opinions; I can build a fairly reasonable case for them being equal to the same opinions WRT software. > Its obvious that you must be affiliated with one of those companies > doing this kind of business to have this attitude. I have friends that work in that business, sure. I don't personally work with it, but I've gotten my attitude (after starting out somewhat like you, wanting to get rid of all those annoying ads) after having talked to intelligent people with the opposite viewpoint, and then having spent time thinking about the consequences of filtering becoming widespread. I don't like those consequences - I want variety on the free part of the net, and producing content costs money. If all the free part of the web contains is private homepages, we've IMO lost the battle - the net didn't make it. That would, again in my opinion, be a great loss. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 05:19:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA17142 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:19:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA17123 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:18:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09082; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:18:47 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA03966; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:18:45 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504141845.34552@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:18:45 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Anatoly Vorobey , ac199@hwcn.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980504111800.32162@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980504111800.32162@techunix.technion.ac.il>; from Anatoly Vorobey on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 11:18:00AM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 11:18:00AM +0300, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > Eivind long > > ago agreed that a program which filters large, fat, unnecessary > > gifs has definate potential use. I agreed with him implicitly. > > 'Unnecessary' is in the beholder's eye, and you undermine your > argument beautifully yourself. For me, _every_ ad is an unnecessary, > large fat gif (or jpeg or whatever). What you want, however, is that > I would be unable to define precisely just what is "large, fat, > unnecessary" for me and what isn't. What I want (in direct and practical terms for FreeBSD) is for the comment of IJB to be something like 'proxy to filter which URLs to retrieve (pattern based)', for IJB come with a sample config that isn't set up to target advertising removal, and for the pkg/DESCR of ijb to describe what side-effects removing advertising has (namely, that you stop the revenue stream to the site you're visiting.) And sure, you can define letting creators get paid as unecessary. I define this e.g. for Microsoft's software - I try to convince all my friends that _paying for_ Microsoft's software is more wrong than using it without paying. However, I personally don't define all sites I visit as worthless - otherwise I wouldn't visit them. Thus I feel it as worthwhile to take a small extra expense (extra download time) to let them get paid. I've even seen an intersting ad once or twice... (Not often, though.) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 05:43:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA20988 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:43:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA20973 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:43:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yWKau-0004rn-00; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:43:44 +0200 Subject: Re: The true meaning of NT In-Reply-To: <199805021841.MAA10372@lariat.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "May 2, 98 12:41:03 pm" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:43:44 +0200 (SAT) X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Johann Visagie Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass (and many other people) wrote: > > NT: Never Trust it. [ ... and many other interpretations. ] Can anyone else remember for just how long NT remained just another vapourware product Microsoft went on and on and on about, while no one ever actually saw a single running machine? During that time, no less an institution than Byte Magazine itself joked that NT probably stood for "Not There". -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 05:59:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA22919 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA22904 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:59:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10995; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:59:40 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA04050; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:59:39 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504145938.32419@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:59:38 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: John Fieber Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from John Fieber on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 06:46:15PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 06:46:15PM -0500, John Fieber wrote: > On Sun, 3 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > Refusing to download ads from the WWW is very bad practice. Those ads are > > paying for the service you're using. I'm not even certain we should have > > the above program as a port > > Yikes! The economics of the Internet are very young and far from > being well understood. In other words, they are in that critical > period of being formulated and are quite maleable. Are you > actually proposing that we consumers should just sit on our > collective ass and just take whatever we get force-fed? No. I think we consumers should get up and do an active choice. However, I don't think we can avoid it - we choose what to view, and with the ease of creating new choices on the net, we will be a large influence no matter what. However: The result of running ad-removal software tends to be the same as grabbing a free ride on public transport - the transport company get less money, which might mean they get less profits - or it might mean that the public get less public transport, and have to take cabs instead. I think the latter is a likely result for many of the services on the net - especially if ad-removal software get common. :-( I don't think this is what the average person running ad-removal software will have thought those thoughts - I think he'll only have considered the aspect that ads are annoying and take time to download, and not the aspect that they're actually paying for the content he views. Thus, I expressed scepticism against the 'ijb'. I didn't ask for it to be removed - I just came with an (attempted) humourous comment to comment on it, and then have been entwined in a long twisty maze of messages, all alike (more or less so, at least). > I couldn't possibly disagree more. I think consumers should be > empowered to define the economics of the internet. I only believe in empowerment if it is combined with education. I don't think having an ad-removal program without a description of what harm you do by running it is a good idea, just as I don't think having a spam-program without a description of why you wouldn't want to spam would be a good idea E.g, both have theft-of-service problems, and are likely to get people annoyed at you (though in a smaller number and probably less personal for ad-removal). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 06:10:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24208 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:10:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA24194 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:09:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11521; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:09:49 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA04134; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:09:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504150948.40292@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:09:48 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Anatoly Vorobey , ac199@hwcn.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980504120454.12416@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980504120454.12416@techunix.technion.ac.il>; from Anatoly Vorobey on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:04:54PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:04:54PM +0300, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > You, Tim Vanderhoek, were spotted writing this on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:18:53AM -0400: > > On Mon, 4 May 1998, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > > > > image with the page. HTTP/HTML does not require that I load images at > > > all. > > > > What does this have to do with images? Lynx doesn't load images. > > It's just as wrong to filter ads from Lynx as it is from > > Netscape. > > When you turn off automatic image loading in Netscape, you > stop downloading all the banner ads as a result. Please explain > why this doesn't make you a pirate in Eivind's eyes. Mainly: The acceptance of the service providers. Difference of intent and acceptance of lower service quality are also very important (ie, make it less of a problem). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 06:22:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26124 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:22:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA26095 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12224; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:22:49 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA04176; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:22:48 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504152247.10976@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:22:47 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980504050129.52485@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew N. Dodd on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:16:36AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:16:36AM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > You're employing a crack (that's ijb) to avoid paying for (that's viewing > > ads) the production of software/content. You may or may not be inside the > > law - that's not something that I'm qualified to determine. > > Just because the system is broken and they account for 'hits' via the HTTP > GET of a graphic image doesn't make me a criminal when I don't load the > image with the page. HTTP/HTML does not require that I load images at > all. Eh - the problem isn't the number of hits. The problem is the number of displayed advertisements. > > However, it is fairly clear that what you're doing deprive the rightful > > owner/creator of their payment - which is what is the point of piracy. > > It might not feel like it, but in practice it has the exact same > > results. You don't have to like it, but I can't see any reason to > > retract my statement :-( > > Again, I don't see how I'm at fault when you (the seller of ad space) fail > to accurately track usage. > > If TV and Radio stations sold advertising the way you do nobody would > advertise as the statement 'we -think- your add will be played 5 times a > day but aren't quite sure.' would be highly offensive to the people buying > advertising space from you. You're totally off base (no offense intended). That's the way TV and radio stations sell ad space ("we -think- that so-and-so many people will see your ad"). Web-sites sells by banner impression - how many times that particular ad has been displayed. This is (if you're going to sell mindshare, as opposed to doing cost-per-action) the most honest method I can think of. Most sites will also give their advertisers the number of page-views as opposed to advertisement impressions, so they get the ratios, too. > What you (the seller of advertising space) need to do is find a better way > of accounting for the content of the HTML you are spewing to the browser > and count the number of times you send an tag of a particular URL > instead of the number of times that url is accessed. That's better for the sellers of advertising space, but it is worse for the advertisers. The advertisers want to pay for each time their ad has been shown, not for each time the page has been shown - they're advertisers, not sponsors. > > I'm not in any way a practicing lawyer (as if you didn't know that ;-). > > I attempt to be a practicing ethical human being; I don't even always > > pass that test... > > Striving for upright ethis is indeed a good goal though passing the buck > and requiring a particular behavior in order to remain ethical in light > ofsomeone's dishonesty as an advertising provider is another. You're off base. It is not dishonesty - selling per impression is total honesty. I can't even understand how you reasoned to arrive at the above conclusion? > If you are not informing your clients of how many tiems you requested a > browser load their ad you are guilty of fraud. Eh? They're informed, but they're not interested. Besides, they're not my advertisers - they're the advertisers of the web-sites I visit. I have looked into the market for various reasons, but my salary is in no way paid by Internet advertising, and never has been. (I can't predict the future, but I'm fairly certain it won't be significant up to my personal event horizon - which is about 6 months away). > Put that in your ethical pipe and smoke it. :) Didn't work - you've swindled me, selling straw instead of grass ;-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 06:43:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00184 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA29991; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id PAA14412; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:42:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:42:58 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: "John S. Dyson" , freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse / KRST / PUMS / YASMW X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 04 May 1998 15:42:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: Tim Vanderhoek's message of "Sun, 3 May 1998 20:43:39 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Vanderhoek writes: > harshly, and 20 years makes my head spin. Heck, that's probably > older than most of the -list participants here... ;-) s/most/many/ :) -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 06:45:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00636 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rfcnet.com (mattc@rfcnet.com [207.227.20.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA00604 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:45:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mattc@rfcnet.com) Received: (from mattc@localhost) by rfcnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23360; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:45:10 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mattc) Message-ID: <19980504084509.A23310@rfcnet.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:45:09 -0500 From: Matthew Cashdollar To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp.freebsd.org acting funny? References: <199805031108.EAA01364@implode.root.com> <199805031727.LAA22311@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805031727.LAA22311@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 11:27:39AM -0600 x-no-archive: yes Organization: RF Communications, Inc. http://www.rfcinc.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id GAA00613 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 11:27:39AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Does this mean we actually have an FTP server that can send a text file > without forcing you to download it? I've been annoyed by lack of support > for this > for YEARS. In /usr/bin/ftp you can just type 'more ' -- it works just like the standard more and you don't have to download the file. -- Matthew Cashdollar RF Communications, Inc. -- http://www.rfcinc.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 06:49:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01290 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:49:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA01283 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:49:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id PAA15462; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:49:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:49:13 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com Cc: Marc Slemko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp.freebsd.org acting funny? References: <199805030849.BAA01030@implode.root.com> Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse / KRST / PUMS / YASMW X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 04 May 1998 15:49:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Greenman's message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 01:49:31 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman writes: > Oh, okay, thanks for pointing that out. To this point I was assuming that > the user was typing "ls -CF", and not that the ncftp client was adding this > on (THAT is clearly wrong as far as the RFC is concerned). It's pretty clear > that I'm going to have to implement some sort of work around for this. :-( Just ignore any argument that starts with a hyphen? -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 06:55:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02688 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:55:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA02651; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:55:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id PAA16501; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:55:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:55:36 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805041153.GAA07744@nospam.hiwaay.net> Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse / KRST / PUMS / YASMW X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 04 May 1998 15:55:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Kelly's message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 06:53:07 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly writes: > I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser > source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same > with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well, > at least not much in IBM scale. You might be surprised. The reason why you're not seeing OS/2 very much any more is that IBM is no longer marketing it as an end-user OS, which does not mean that they're not making any money selling it. -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 07:51:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10810 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:51:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10788 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:51:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA14086; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:52:58 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504165258.09482@cons.org> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:52:58 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Oracle on Linux enhancement request, need your support!] References: <354BBCAE.DB43058F@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> <354BC2CF.41C67EA6@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <354BC2CF.41C67EA6@asme.org>; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Sat, May 02, 1998 at 08:05:19PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <354BC2CF.41C67EA6@asme.org>, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Since SCO's Oracle (7) works fine under FreeBSD, I wouldn't see any > benefit for us in a Linux version. If Oracle8 doesn't run, we should > focus on improving our SYSV emulation, and/or request a FreeBSD port. What about client libraries? How can you access Oracle from FreeBSD C programs? Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 07:53:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11161 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:53:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA11144 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:53:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07006; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:53:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Eivind Eklund cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <19980504152247.10976@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > You're totally off base (no offense intended). That's the way TV and radio > stations sell ad space ("we -think- that so-and-so many people will see your > ad"). Web-sites sells by banner impression - how many times that particular > ad has been displayed. This is (if you're going to sell mindshare, as > opposed to doing cost-per-action) the most honest method I can think of. > Most sites will also give their advertisers the number of page-views as > opposed to advertisement impressions, so they get the ratios, too. TV and Radio sell time slots. Nothing more, nothing less. Ratings and independent polls try to determine the number of potential viewers for a particular timeslot. Supply and demand set the price for a particular time slot. What you (a seller of web advertising space) need to do is provide better tracking of what people are loading vs. what is being sent to them. It is only in your best interest to determine as accurately as you can, what your site's 'ratings' are. A site like altavista for example; I would think their ratings are very good as I not only see the web banners (they load as fast as the search results) but often go back to reread the rather funny ones IBM is running. > You're off base. It is not dishonesty - selling per impression is total > honesty. I can't even understand how you reasoned to arrive at the above > conclusion? I was under the impression that you were charging for slots on a particuar page rather than per banner image loaded. :/ Its not quite as bad as I made it out to be. > Eh? They're informed, but they're not interested. Besides, they're not my > advertisers - they're the advertisers of the web-sites I visit. I have > looked into the market for various reasons, but my salary is in no way paid > by Internet advertising, and never has been. (I can't predict the future, > but I'm fairly certain it won't be significant up to my personal > event horizon - which is about 6 months away). Again, I remind you that this is entirely academic as you aren't a provider of web advertisment space and I am not a user of IJB. I'm only arguing this side of the topic for the hell of it. (We could confuse everyone and switch sides if you like.) > Didn't work - you've swindled me, selling straw instead of grass ;-) Thats not my problem. If I were advertising grass and delivering straw it would be another issue. /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 07:55:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11579 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:55:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA11557 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:55:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-49.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.49]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA10354; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:54:28 GMT Message-ID: <354DD2A7.76C69637@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 07:37:27 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" CC: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, I've got an idea... let's add _another_ port that's a dummy client that just sits there and GETs pages with banners into the bit-bucket... Content producers win, suits lose. Free enterprise at work! My take on this is that it's their right to advertise to us and our right to filter it. I'm against anybody from government interfering. Little interferences become big ones. I do agree with Eivind's original argument that we shouldn't _advertise_ the port as a blocking / cracking tool, though. The suits and the dark glasses are all lots bigger than we are. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 08:13:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15202 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA15179 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:13:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07291; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:12:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:12:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Don Wilde cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <354DD2A7.76C69637@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > I do agree with Eivind's original argument that we shouldn't _advertise_ > the port as a blocking / cracking tool, though. The suits and the dark > glasses are all lots bigger than we are. Agree. IJB is no more or less evil than 'dd' or 'strobe'. While some may have issue with IJBs definition of 'junk' there is clearly a number of people that agree that its definition is correct. Lets label the port with what it does and move on. /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 08:19:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16411 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA16374 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA17842; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:17:53 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980504181752.37647@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:17:52 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Eivind Eklund Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980503230438.48318@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> <354d2457.225839725@mail.cetlink.net> <19980504042649.61453@follo.net> <19980504032939.07389@follo.net> <19980504115714.07998@techunix.technion.ac.il> <19980504133118.00078@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <19980504133118.00078@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 01:31:18PM +0200 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Eivind Eklund, were spotted writing this on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 01:31:18PM +0200: > On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 11:57:14AM +0300, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > You, Eivind Eklund, were spotted writing this on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:29:39AM +0200: > > > Arguments! Come up with arguments! > > > > [... on the HTTP protocol sending out parts of the data as different streams > snipped ...] Well, there was an argument [you snipped it], are you going to address it? > > Your argument about those silly "licenses" on sites is also wrong. > > They're invalid and unenforcable. > > You'll have to take those cases with e.g. ZDnet and C/NET, not me - I'm not > a lawyer trying to enforce the licenses, I'm a private citizen trying to > argue reasonable conduct - and trying to get people to actually think about > what they're doing. You might be surprised to discover that some people, even of the awful barbaric variety of ijb users, do think about that quite a bit. There's, for example, a very interesting and thoughtful FAQ on the ijb site (that's junkbuster.com) that you might want to read. Moreover, it looked for me as if you wanted to convince people they're up to something immoral and possibly illegal, rather then to get them to think. What you are saying, basically, is: "ijb is baaaaaaad because it lets you avoid paying [by seeing adverts] for the free stuff [content] you get, and that's baaaaaaad and also if we all do that people who make free stuff won't make it any more". Please correct me if I'm capturing your basic argument unfaithfully. Now, that, in my world, is a moralistic call rather than a philosophical position. As former, it's fine, except that I consider the moral underlying it invalid and misguided, and I explained why in my former lengthy message. As latter, it doesn't look good at all. First, there's an obvious internal contradiction in terms. If the stuff is _free_, you _do not_ pay for it - either with dollars or your attention and fatigue at seeing ads. If you MUST PAY for it, it's no longer free, that's all. My time and moods (ads distract and annoy me) are actually much more valuable to me than money in many cases. The confusion is widespread and is being maintained because companies find it useful to advertise "FREE STUFF" (example: "free" email address with ads attached to all messages, and so on), but it's still a confusion. Secondly, you use the famous argument "what if everybody does this", which is not at all free from problems. It has been attacked (and defended) by numerous philosophers since Kant, who appears to be the first who noticed its weirdness and granted a lot of attentino (and ink) to it. Thirdly, you don't even begin to discuss all the (very relevant) issues of intellectual property, of how valid (morally, not legally) are "licenses" on web sites (is a license which DEMANDS from you to watch this site in 895x347 resolution valid? morally right? this is just a small example), and so on and so forth. > > First of all, a "page" is not an abstraction which exists on protocol > > level. A "page" is something out together by my software from separate > > entitites I pull from a site, so there's no reverse-engineering in my > > putting it together from a subset of the whole set of possible entitites > > (again, browsing with images turned off is an important special case). > > I didn't claim that this was reverse-engineering. I claimed that > reverse-engineering was a special case of filtering, and one that is illegal > in the US. (Most software licenses in the US state that you can't modify > the executable of a program - I don't know if that holds up there, either. > I know it doesn't hold up in my end of the world.) Your claim is inaccurate in any case. Reverse-engineering is illegal in some places not because it's filtering (again, as I tried to explain above, ijb doesn't, technically, do filtering. Firewalls do filtering. ijb helps avoid initiating needless HTTP connections) and may change the end user's perception of the product (be it a Web page or a commercial software program). The law doesn't care about that one little bit. Reverse engineering is illegal because it helps you find out trade secrets and/or dishonor copyrights and that is forbidden by the law. I think you will agree that no trade secrets are being discovered by not initiating HTTP connections to pull some images for an HTML page! In some places, by the way, reverse engineering is protected by the law so strongly you can freely do it even if your license doesn't want yout o. > Books are fairly limited in how they can be licensed, due to special > consideration being put on them in laws. > > Other content may be licensed different ways, though there are limits on the > licenses there too. Yes, and limits are defined in particular by what the medium can allow/disallow. The Web medium allows me to choose what I pull off the site. > > free ride - on the medium. They're using a medium (Web, HTTP) which > > explicitly lets its user to pull or not to pull different > > images/other files separately, and they want to brainwash ME, a user > > of the medium, to give up this freedom of mine and get their ads > > no matter what. Their attempts to produce content are appreciated; > > their attemtps to force down my throat what I don't want (and don't > > have to, by the nature of the medium) to see are not. > > They're not attempting to "force down your throath what you don't want to > have" - they're offering you a service for a certain pay. This payment > happens to consist of viewing and downloading advertising. No good. Wrong medium. If they put HTML files on their server in (for example) public_html directory with right permissions, _they_ are implicitly agreeing that everyone in the world can make an HTTP request and get that file and do with it anything he wants on his own computer. That's the freedom the medium defines for everybody. If they want to restrict this freedom and force a user to: pay them money, pay them in user's time by pulling an ad image from their site and watching it, pay them in any other way - they are free to restrict access to their content - by putting it into directory with password, by choosing another medium altogether, and so on. But they cannot legally (or morally) force me to do anything just because I took a file free for taking by the public, as defined in the medium. Just as if you get a file from public ftp, start reading it and it says in the beginning "NOW GO AND WATCH OUR ADS AT HTTP://WWW.OURADS.COM", you're neither morally nor legally obliged to actually do that. If a content provider wants to force you, he shouldn't have put the file on the ftp site for your taking freely. In case of the Web, it's simply quicker and more automatised. Again, your friends the content-providers don't want all those more complicated solutions because it limits their audience severely. They want to use the most portable medium accessible to everyone in the simplest way: click on a link, see a file. And yet, at the same time, force you to pay in your time, for example, by watching their ad. They want a free ride. And they are not getting it from me. > For a limited > set of users (those using Lynx and browsing without images) they even offer > the service for free. That's twisted logic. Suppose someone is selling apples and I snatch an apple and start running away. The man who sells apples doesn't pursue me because he recognizes the damage as not great enough for pursuit. But that _doesn't make me innocent_. Same here. In your ethical model, someone who watches the site and not the ads is a thief, just like someone who stole an apple. It may be that the content provider doesn't care because the loss isn't great enough, but he's still a thief according to your ethics and it shouldn't be OK, just as it isn't OK to steal an apple. > What is your model for paying for content? That's what we're talking about > here. Talking about 'nature of the medium' is IMO a strawman argument - how > do you think the production of content should be paid for? I'm not talking > about 'making it profitable' - I'm talking of paying actual costs. Strawman argument is when you attack not your opponent's ideas, but a weaker version of them built by yourself for that purpose. Where is it here? I'm attacking specifically what you say, by arguing that I'm morally and legally free to look at what I want, from the variety of files available for HTTP download off the Web. Now, "model of paying for content" is another thing altogether! _That_ is not really relevant for the argument. Why should I let considerations on how content producers are going to make money affect my freedom? The production of content may be paid for in many different ways. They usually involve restricted access to the resource and/or different medium than simple Web browsing. No, I'm not happy if a resource stops being free for download and starts charging money per access. But it doesn't mean I should give up my freedom to see what I want. Besides, in practice number of people using ijb or different tools is negligible. Currently it's probably much less than number of people who browse with images turned off! The content producers simply want more ads pulled off from their site, because it gets them more money. I sympathize with their wishes but see no reason for that to affect my (or anyone else's) freedom to turn off images or use ijb. > > Should they desire that I get their ads no matter what, they should look > > INTO a DIFFERENT MEDIUM which allows that. Was that clear enough? For > > example, they can use ActiveX controls which display ads on my Windows > > desktop, and make their site unbrowsable without ActiveX. Or they can use > > .PDF file with graphics built-in the file and ask me to download them. > > It's not bloody difficult to make the web a limited medium where you can't > browse without images, and can't download pages without seeing ads. Oh yes, it's bloody difficult, otherwise it would have been done by now. In the same way, it's bloody difficult to make all Web ActiveX-only, because people at large won't "buy" it. > It > require that ads and HTML pages are downloaded from the same domain, but > apart from that it should be technically fairly easy, in the precense of > cookies and images (and dropping users that don't have cookies and images > aren't considered a large loss any longer). That's really the site's problem, not mine, why do I have to even worry about it and how all of it is relevant here? > > Your arguments about ijb being a 'cracker' tools or about > > its user being 'pirates' are just way too silly to address, > > esp. in the light of what I wrote above. They would be offensive > > if they weren't so laughable. > > "The nature of software is to be copiable, so calling my > payment-removal-system a cracker-tool would be offensive if it wasn't so > laughtable." Wrong analogy. Payment-removal system forces you to pay before you use [or use all features]. There's nothing similar in a file being offered for HTTP download on a public server. If ijb was a tool to circumvent passwords in .htaccess protected directories, your analogy would hold water. As it isn't, it doesn't. > "The nature of software is to be a stream of bytes, not distinct > executables, so calling my program for automatically modifying executables > to remove the stated copyright and the copyprotection a crackers tool would > be offensive if it wasn't so laughtable." This is really silly. Among other flaws of this "analogy", as I have pointed out several times already, ijb doesn't "modify" any file DLed off the server. This analogy would hold water if HTML fileswere unreadable without a password when DLed from the Web and ijb was a tool to crack such a password. As it isn't, it doesn't. > I'm fully willing to offend. People that don't think clearly easily get > offended by labels. (I try not to be, but that doesn't always work ;-) As I said, I wasn't offended. Your calling me a pirate and a cracker is laughable, not offensive, because it's so ridiculous; it speaks volumes about your confusion in the matter. > The nature of pirates is that they take content without paying. Be that > music, books, software, or web-pages - it doesn't matter. What you fail to understand is that when your friend puts an HTML file in a free-for-taking medium - the Web - he loses the ability and justification, legal or moral, to demand payment for DLing this file and using it on your computer in any way you want. The act of putting unencrypted free-for-browsing HTML file presumes everyone in fact is free to go and browse it. Moreover, your friend _WANTS_ it this way - because if he chose another more restricted medium, fewer people would browse it. But then he wants to have his cake and eat it too - and attach to this act MY responsibility to also go out and read his ad. You're not thinking clearly when you call me a pirate for browsing an HTML file free for browsing. If I take a file from a public ftp site, and then not perform everything it asks me to do - am I a pirate? > The nature of > crackers (in the original meaning, not the one the original hackers are > trying to push over) is removing copy-protection. Now, you might say that > the protection on most web-pages is laughtably simple - it is. There is NO protection, simple or otherwise. There is an HTML tag which I might or might not use to load an image from a site. What protection are you talking about? > BTW: "A lot of my best friends are pirates" - I'm not in a position where I > can judge people for electing to be pirates (there isn't many years since I It doesn't matter whether you judge me or not. Your calling me a pirate reveals a deep misunderstanding of what piracy is, and how Web functions. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 08:21:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17050 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paris.dppl.com (exim@paris.dppl.com [205.230.74.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA16996; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yds@ingress.com) Received: from ichiban.ingress.com (ichiban) [205.230.64.31] by paris.dppl.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yWN3D-0004g5-00; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:21:07 -0400 Message-ID: <014301bd7770$42351720$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> From: "Yarema" To: , "FreeBSD advocacy list" Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:21:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser >source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same >with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well, >at least not much in IBM scale. Hmm.. They already have a suitable (read: very BSD like) license/Copyright at http://www.clark.net/~proberts/vmailer/COPYRIGHT.html: -----begin----- Copyright (c) 1997 by International Business Machines, Inc. International Business Machines, Inc. (hereinafter called IBM) grants permission under its copyrights to use, copy, modify, and distribute this Software with or without fee, provided that all paragraphs of this notice appear in all copies, and that the name of IBM not be used in connection with the marketing of any product incorporating the Software or modifications thereof, without specific, written prior permission. To the extent it has a right to do so, IBM grants an immunity from suit under its patents, if any, for the use, sale or manufacture of products to the extent that such products are used for electronic mail transport and delivery by means of the Software. No immunity is granted for any product per se or for any other function of any product. THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", AND IBM DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. IN NO EVENT SHALL IBM BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF IBM IS APPRISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. -----end----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 08:32:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19224 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:32:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19024 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:31:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA19646; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:31:02 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980504183102.22360@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:31:02 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Eivind Eklund Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources References: <19980504120454.12416@techunix.technion.ac.il> <19980504150948.40292@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <19980504150948.40292@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:09:48PM +0200 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Eivind Eklund, were spotted writing this on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:09:48PM +0200: > On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:04:54PM +0300, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > You, Tim Vanderhoek, were spotted writing this on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:18:53AM -0400: > > > On Mon, 4 May 1998, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > > > > > > image with the page. HTTP/HTML does not require that I load images at > > > > all. > > > > > > What does this have to do with images? Lynx doesn't load images. > > > It's just as wrong to filter ads from Lynx as it is from > > > Netscape. > > > > When you turn off automatic image loading in Netscape, you > > stop downloading all the banner ads as a result. Please explain > > why this doesn't make you a pirate in Eivind's eyes. > > Mainly: The acceptance of the service providers. Irrelevant. If you steal something, and the owner forgives you, does it mean you didn't do anything wrong? In another message, you define 'piracy' as 'taking content without paying'. In your own ethical system, browsing with images turned off on a site with banner ads is piracy, whether the service provider cares about it or not. Do you agree? > Difference of intent and What differnce of intent? In both cases I don't want to see unwanted pictures. I have no reason to explicitly wish that the service provider gets no money and starves to death. > acceptance of lower service quality Hos is this one relevant at all? Puzzled, Anatoly. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 08:37:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20547 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:37:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20535; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:37:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07514; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:36:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: Tim Vanderhoek , Eivind Eklund , Matthew Hunt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > Bah. And I suppose your email reader is going to pull this > paragraph but not pull the next one. Perhaps you should pull > alternating words from my message. That would certainly save > your bandwidth. Again, you fail to understand the nature of HTML/HTTP. > > We're talking about software that turns off loading of images that match a > > specific pattern. This isn't filtering as such. > > No we're not. We're talking about filtering ads. Eivind long > ago agreed that a program which filters large, fat, unnecessary > gifs has definate potential use. I agreed with him implicitly. No, in the case where we filter ads we do so because they cause specific pages to be delayed in loading. Altavista for example would not have their ads filtered because they load quickly and are fairly well integrated with the page. By filter I mean 'do not load images that match a specific set of criteria'. Since you're somewhat slow I'll explain how HTML/HTTP work with respect to loading these images. We've got an HTML doccument: http://www.foo.com/foo.html Foo

Foo

banner

This is the content of foo. This is only the content.

FOO! Two additional requests are needed in order to completly load all components of this page. The page merely asks us to load them. Our browser is under no obligaton to honor these requests (we can even turn of image loading completly if we desire.) By use of IJB and others, we give ourselves the ability to do a number of useful things (not load images, de-interlace interlaced gifs, etc.) This is the nature of the web. Complaining about it does no good. Accept it, move on. Just think of what web caching proxies do to banner stats on static pages. (Which is why most banners are on pages are dynamic and provide hints for caching proxies not to cache them.) /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 08:37:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20591 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:37:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20573 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05720; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:37:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805041537.JAA05720@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:37:34 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: FreeBSD will need threads for Apache 2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to the article at http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0504/04apache.html version 2.0 will be threaded! This means that it'll have to emulate threads if the OS doesn't provide them -- and this will probably hurt performance. Guess that FreeBSD is likely to need threads.... A la Linux or NeXTStep. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 08:45:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21891 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:45:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21866 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:44:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA16625 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:43:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma016612; Mon, 4 May 98 08:43:41 -0700 Message-ID: <354DE22D.639F6E43@partsnow.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 08:43:42 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@partsnow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Netscape lifts our visibility Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Please go to the Netscape downloads page and DL the FreeBSD version from the official site. We're on their list, and I'll just bet they're tracking it. There's still an * next to it, so I'm sure if you read the fine print you'll see 'unsupported', but we're ON THE LIST!!! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 09:04:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25580 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:04:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dns.ida.net (mail.ida.net [204.228.203.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25527 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:04:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ogre_6_4@yahoo.com) Received: from falcon.hinterlands.com (tc-pt1-20.ida.net [208.141.181.29]) by dns.ida.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14214 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:34:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354DE1BE.167EB0E7@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:41:50 -0600 From: Grendell X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Opinions wanted Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm considering installing a linux distribution to compare with my freebsd (2.2.5 Release). For those of you running both freebsd and linux, which linux distribution would you recommend to compliment freebsd? Which linux distribution co-exists best with freebsd? This is NOT linux vs freebsd mail. I would just like to know what linux distribution freebsd users feel most comfortable with. Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 09:57:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04578 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:57:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04514 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:57:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02841; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:57:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805041657.LAA02841@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Opinions wanted In-Reply-To: <354DE1BE.167EB0E7@yahoo.com> from Grendell at "May 4, 98 09:41:50 am" To: ogre_6_4@yahoo.com (Grendell) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:57:31 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Grendell said: > I'm considering installing a linux distribution to compare with my > freebsd (2.2.5 Release). For those of you running both freebsd and > linux, which linux distribution would you recommend to compliment > freebsd? Which linux distribution co-exists best with freebsd? > > This is NOT linux vs freebsd mail. I would just like to know what linux > distribution freebsd users feel most comfortable with. > I have run BOTH Red Hat and Slackware along with my FreeBSD system. Now, I happen to be running NetBSD instead of Linux on my spare space (but that is for work.) IMO, I tend to like Red Hat more, mostly because of it's market size. You might try Slackware, partially because they are being supported by some of the same folks who are supporting us... -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 09:58:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04812 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:58:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04762 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02847; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:58:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805041658.LAA02847@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD will need threads for Apache 2.0 In-Reply-To: <199805041537.JAA05720@lariat.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "May 4, 98 09:37:34 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:58:28 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said: > According to the article at > > http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0504/04apache.html > > version 2.0 will be threaded! This means that it'll have to emulate > threads if the OS doesn't provide them -- and this will probably > hurt performance. > > Guess that FreeBSD is likely to need threads.... A la Linux or > NeXTStep. > That is 100% going to be there (it has to be.) Part of my job is to help make sure that we have kernel threads. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 10:27:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11999 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:27:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11969; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:27:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id LAA05325; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:27:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA10463; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:23:17 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:23:17 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko Reply-To: Marc Slemko To: sos@FreeBSD.ORG cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <199805041124.EAA09035@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998 sos@FreeBSD.ORG wrote: > In reply to Eivind Eklund who wrote: > > > I'll say it again: The ads are paying for the service. If you drop > > watching the ads, then you provide less payback to those that develop free > > services, and thus less opportunity (and possibly less incentive). If you > > use this kind of software, you're asking for more services to go for > > membership only. > > I'll say it again, THIS IS A FREE WORLD, and nobody can dictate that > you should download the adds period. If that means that some of > those "poor" suckers doing "free" websites have to close, well > so be it, its not the end of the world, its a victory damn it! > > Its obvious that you must be affiliated with one of those companies > doing this kind of business to have this attitude. It is obvious that you must have some fantasy about a dream world where everyone does everything for free and no one needs money. Or perhaps you are just dreaming about the "good old" days when the Internet wasn't commercial. The fact is that a significant number of sites that are supported using ads today could not exist without the revenue generated. The fact is that they provide useful content to some people. If the content isn't useful to you, just stop viewing the web pages. No need to whine about ads being "forced" on to you if you don't view the pages. If it is useful, then I'm not sure why you are thinking it would be a victory to shut down the web site. And I thought the "software wants to be free! free! no charge for anything ever!" zealots were bad. I don't see why you think you have a right to demand that people provide content to you in the way you want, regardless of their wishes. No one is demanding you download the ads; no one is forcing you to visit the pages. However, if you do use the content then it is quite rude to go out of your way to bypass the mechanisms that allow that content to be provided to you in the first place. The end result of automated filtering of ads on a widespread basis will be either forcing you to pay for each web site you visit (micropayment schemes are being worked on and may prove practical) or the ads becoming more annoying, more invasive, and much more difficult to filter. What this all boils down to is you wanting something for nothing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 11:18:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23328 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:18:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from sos@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23095; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:18:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sos) Message-Id: <199805041818.LAA23095@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: from Marc Slemko at "May 4, 98 11:23:17 am" To: marcs@znep.com Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: sos@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In reply to Marc Slemko who wrote: > It is obvious that you must have some fantasy about a dream world where > everyone does everything for free and no one needs money. Or perhaps you > are just dreaming about the "good old" days when the Internet wasn't > commercial. Oh, well, yes I can sometimes wish me the days ten years ago, back when the net was a pleasent professionel place to be... > The fact is that a significant number of sites that are supported using > ads today could not exist without the revenue generated. The fact is that > they provide useful content to some people. You can't be serious... > The end result of automated filtering of ads on a widespread basis will be > either forcing you to pay for each web site you visit (micropayment > schemes are being worked on and may prove practical) or the ads becoming > more annoying, more invasive, and much more difficult to filter. Now we are getting somewhere, I would gladly pay for the things I use, but ONLY for the things I use. If the ISP's disn't have to buy mega lines to support adds and pictures of naked people, we could all be sisseling around on the net, for almost no money :) > What this all boils down to is you wanting something for nothing. Gimme a break!! If I had that attitude I would hardly spend the better part of my free time doing FreeBSD for free, would I ?? Geeeze... I'm not on -chat, so I will not see any followups there, besides we are not going to agree on this anyways.. I'm still supporting junkbuster and anything like it, and it will stay in the ports collection, and for all I care it can be advertized on the front cover of the CD's (it would make a hell of a selling point I tell you). Period. End of story. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 11:18:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23346 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:18:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23229 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:18:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id MAA07308; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:18:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA10826; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:16:33 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:16:32 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD will need threads for Apache 2.0 In-Reply-To: <199805041537.JAA05720@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > According to the article at > > http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0504/04apache.html > > version 2.0 will be threaded! This means that it'll have to emulate > threads if the OS doesn't provide them -- and this will probably > hurt performance. 2.0 should (future tense; it isn't written yet) be able to run just as well on systems without threads as Apache runs right now. Even if the system has threads, there are very valid reasons for not chosing to use them. But yes, for the optimum performance and features threads will be required. Probably layered on top of Netscape's NSPR. > > Guess that FreeBSD is likely to need threads.... A la Linux or > NeXTStep. FreeBSD has threads. Not necessarily all there yet, but I would expect 3.0 to have what is needed. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 11:59:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29956 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:59:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29890; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:59:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-57.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.57]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA79644; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:59:03 GMT Message-ID: <354E0FD0.89BC1B47@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:58:24 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG CC: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD vs NetBSD References: <199805041658.LAA02847@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John - Would you clear something up for me? There's an article on ~andreas link page from ncworldmag.com that says NCI OS is based on NetBSD. Is he out of date or have you all shifted back to that code base or is it all so blurred as to be irrelevant? If he's wrong, would you correct him? He seems very FreeBSD-positive, I'm sure he would update it. > http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncworld/ncw-05-1997/ncw-05-analysis.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 12:01:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00438 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:01:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00420; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:01:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00453; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:01:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199805041901.OAA00453@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs NetBSD In-Reply-To: <354E0FD0.89BC1B47@ibm.net> from Don Wilde at "May 4, 98 11:58:24 am" To: dwilde1@ibm.net Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:01:03 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > John - > Would you clear something up for me? There's an article on ~andreas > link page from ncworldmag.com that says NCI OS is based on NetBSD. Is he > out of date or have you all shifted back to that code base or is it all > so blurred as to be irrelevant? If he's wrong, would you correct him? He > seems very FreeBSD-positive, I'm sure he would update it. > FreeBSD and NetBSD are both used and redistributed at NCI. NetBSD is the client OS (for portability), and FreeBSD is the server OS (for scalability and performance.) John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 12:06:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01495 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:06:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01469; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:06:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-57.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.57]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA12328; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:06:36 GMT Message-ID: <354E1196.3AEA02AC@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 12:05:58 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG CC: Tim Vanderhoek , freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805032354.SAA00679@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John S. Dyson wrote: > I suggest that synergy with industry is not only *not* destructive > to free software, but actually helps fund it. I believe that > free software can be produced by commercial developers, who often > tend to be very practiced and skillful. By taking profit motive > away by making enhancements necessarily encumbered, this takes > a degree of freedom away from those who have to feed their families, > as opposed to being fed by their families. Anybody running X? Mesa? BSD Itself? Of course we need professionals to freely contribute. The fact that their company can also use the 'product' is why many are allowed to do so. I hope some of the energy you are putting into NCI will come back to us. I know it will! --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 12:13:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02966 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:13:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02956; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:13:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00519; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:13:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199805041913.OAA00519@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <354E1196.3AEA02AC@ibm.net> from Don Wilde at "May 4, 98 12:05:58 pm" To: dwilde1@ibm.net Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:13:29 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > John S. Dyson wrote: > > > I suggest that synergy with industry is not only *not* destructive > > to free software, but actually helps fund it. I believe that > > free software can be produced by commercial developers, who often > > tend to be very practiced and skillful. By taking profit motive > > away by making enhancements necessarily encumbered, this takes > > a degree of freedom away from those who have to feed their families, > > as opposed to being fed by their families. > > Anybody running X? Mesa? BSD Itself? Of course we need professionals to > freely contribute. The fact that their company can also use the > 'product' is why many are allowed to do so. I hope some of the energy > you are putting into NCI will come back to us. I know it will! > FWIW, very little of what I do for NCI is being restricted. Sometimes it is, but not much. It seems that Whistle is also freely contributing work back. IMO, the issue of companies "hoarding" all of the good software is a canard. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 13:28:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17788 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:28:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17773 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:28:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id PAA28933; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:28:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980504152830.43405@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:28:30 -0500 From: dannyman To: don@partsnow.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape lifts our visibility Mail-Followup-To: don@partsnow.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <354DE22D.639F6E43@partsnow.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <354DE22D.639F6E43@partsnow.com>; from Don Wilde on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:43:42AM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:43:42AM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > Please go to the Netscape downloads page and DL the FreeBSD version from > the official site. We're on their list, and I'll just bet they're > tracking it. There's still an * next to it, so I'm sure if you read the > fine print you'll see 'unsupported', but we're ON THE LIST!!! What list? URL? Not on http://home.netscape.com/download/selectplatform_1_1.html -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 13:41:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20114 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:41:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20077 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:41:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id NAA21236; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:40:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma021233; Mon, 4 May 98 13:40:11 -0700 Message-ID: <354E27AE.76C905A7@partsnow.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 13:40:14 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@partsnow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dannyman CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape lifts our visibility References: <354DE22D.639F6E43@partsnow.com> <19980504152830.43405@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org dannyman wrote: > > On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:43:42AM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > > Please go to the Netscape downloads page and DL the FreeBSD version from > > the official site. We're on their list, and I'll just bet they're > > tracking it. There's still an * next to it, so I'm sure if you read the > > fine print you'll see 'unsupported', but we're ON THE LIST!!! > > What list? > > URL? > > Not on http://home.netscape.com/download/selectplatform_1_1.html > Now THAT's interesting... When I looked from a W95 Netscape on Saturday, I got a pulldown menu that had FreeBSD on it. This select page is different!!!! oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 13:54:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22831 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:54:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22799; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09692; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:54:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 14:54:15 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: InfoWorld brawl esclates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The brawl in the InfoWorld forum is accelerating. After pointing out some of the recent statistics from wcarchive, showing the increase in FreeBSD downloads, I've been branded as a "zealot," as "hyping" FreeBSD, and as a stooge for large corporations. I didn't realize that the religious fervor among the Stallmanites was so intense, or that they had the blinders on so tight. I'm now convinced that these folks ARE out to kill the *BSDs. Apparently, they're a threat to the GPL zealots for two reasons. First, they prove that the restrictive terms of the GPL are not necessary to the success of collaboratively developed softwre; and second, they provide the access to re-usable source code that Richard Stallman hoped to deny to commercial software publishers. This latter point seems to be a source of real animosity among those who subscribe to Stallman's anti-business views. So, don't get too comfortable, guys. If what I see is any indication, the BSDs are seriously under attack. They might do well to respond -- with hard numbers, proven advantages, AND a bit of zealotry of their own. Oh, and while I happen to be on the subject, I just visited the site http://www.opensource.org and noted that it read like a commercial for Linux -- lots of mentions of Linux and only one of FreeBSD. So, I e-mailed Eric Raymond about this, asking why FreeBSD had been relegated to a footnote on their page at http://www.opensource.org/products.html while Linux was mentioned at the top and throughout. He said, "Send me information on a conmmercial FreeBSD vendor with a > $1M annual runrate and I'll use it." Hmmm. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 15:25:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15047 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:25:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14548 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:22:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA7045; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:25:41 +0500 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 17:25:22 +0500 (GMT) From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" To: Martin Cracauer cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Oracle on Linux enhancement request, need your support!] In-Reply-To: <19980504165258.09482@cons.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We have a wonderful COFF crossdeveloper environment ;-) Pedro. On Mon, 4 May 1998, Martin Cracauer wrote: > In <354BC2CF.41C67EA6@asme.org>, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > Since SCO's Oracle (7) works fine under FreeBSD, I wouldn't see any > > benefit for us in a Linux version. If Oracle8 doesn't run, we should > > focus on improving our SYSV emulation, and/or request a FreeBSD port. > > What about client libraries? How can you access Oracle from FreeBSD C > programs? > > Martin > -- > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% > Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer > BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 15:40:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18407 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:40:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18362; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:40:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805042240.PAA18362@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Mailing list stats? In-Reply-To: from "Jan B. Koum" at "May 3, 98 09:14:58 pm" To: jkb@best.com (Jan B. Koum) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Jonathan, do you have any stats on the amount of traffic increase > on @freebsd.org mailing lists and the number of subscribed users increase? > The reason I say traffic is that a lot of messages to -questions seem to > be coming from people not on the mailing list itself. Thanks, i dont have stats over time. i have the current stats. and thru the majoromdo logs can create number of users in the lists for any point in time. with regards to amount of traffic, the ftp site, ftp.freebds.org /pub/FreeBSD/mailing-lists, contains each weeks mail for each list in a file. one could use this to determine the number of messages on any list(s) between any pair of dates. current numbers are: Mon May 4 15:34:38 PDT 1998 Statistics from Tue Apr 28 16:00:04 1998 M msgsfr bytes_from msgsto bytes_to Mailer 0 0 0K 12053 30124K prog 1 0 0K 8186 26958K *file* 3 231516 780141K 49821 213475K local 5 3687 20075K 42572 117032K esmtp 6 9334 49139K 910702 2071753K smtp8 ======================================== T 244537 849355K 1023334 2459342K ****************************** * List Sizes * ****************************** 31542 total 12738 freebsd-announce 1425 freebsd-security 1248 freebsd-stable 1114 freebsd-hackers 1043 freebsd-current 979 freebsd-isp 824 freebsd-questions 797 freebsd-security-notifications 690 freebsd-hardware 591 freebsd-smp 512 freebsd-bugs 478 freebsd-scsi 464 freebsd-fs 417 freebsd-multimedia 417 freebsd-hackers-digest 416 freebsd-ports 379 freebsd-emulation 352 freebsd-mozilla 344 freebsd-java 324 freebsd-platforms 322 freebsd-mobile 320 freebsd-install 315 freebsd-net 280 freebsd-sparc 261 freebsd-database 252 freebsd-security-digest 252 freebsd-chat 250 freebsd-jobs 238 freebsd-questions-digest 232 cvs-all 216 freebsd-isdn 211 freebsd-newbies 197 ctm-announce 194 freebsd-doc 193 freebsd-alpha 192 freebsd-current-digest 191 freebsd-atm 172 freebsd-realtime 165 freebsd-advocacy 124 freebsd-hubs 105 freebsd-commit 100 freebsd-stable-digest i've omitted those below 100 sunbscribers. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 15:45:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19622 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:45:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050n33.san.rr.com (@dt050n33.san.rr.com [204.210.31.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19585 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050n33.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16291; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:37:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <354E430C.5BA72E5A@san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:37:00 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE-0502 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805041153.GAA07744@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > David Kelly writes: > > I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser > > source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same > > with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well, > > at least not much in IBM scale. > > You might be surprised. > > The reason why you're not seeing OS/2 very much any more is that IBM > is no longer marketing it as an end-user OS, which does not mean that > they're not making any money selling it. OS/2 actually has a very lively existence in the server market (especially where multiple networking architectures have to coexist), lotus notes market and perhaps more importantly; almost all ATM's run OS/2 as well as the vast majority of Point of Sale systems (those little scanners of UPC codes at the supermarket, et al). OS/2 is far and away the best desktop OS available, combining the power of unix and tremendous ease of use. Tragically IBM can't market their way out of a paper bag and microsoft's purposeful scrambling of the win32 API to prevent the possibility of emulators (including and especially OS/2 since it's always been the best) has doomed OS/2 in the desktop market. Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud designer and maintainer of the world's largest Internet *** Relay Chat server with 5,328 simultaneous connections. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 16:01:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22820 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:01:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22735; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00268; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:00:44 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA07828; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:00:40 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980505010036.51517@follo.net> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:00:36 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates References: <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:54:15PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:54:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > The brawl in the InfoWorld forum is accelerating. After pointing out some > of the recent statistics from wcarchive, showing the increase in FreeBSD > downloads, I've been branded as a "zealot," as "hyping" FreeBSD, and as > a stooge for large corporations. I didn't realize that the religious > fervor among the Stallmanites was so intense, or that they had the blinders > on so tight. Part of this is because you quote Slackware numbers at them. The numbers are overall (Linux is going linear growth, FreeBSD still on exponential), not just against Slackware. And all of it is anecdotes. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 16:23:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26812 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26738; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:23:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11721; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:23:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805042323.RAA11721@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 17:23:20 -0600 To: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-Reply-To: <19980505010036.51517@follo.net> References: <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org> <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was under the impression that dg had recently published hard numbers showing this trend. It'd certainly help to quote them there. --Brett At 01:00 AM 5/5/98 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:54:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >> The brawl in the InfoWorld forum is accelerating. After pointing out some >> of the recent statistics from wcarchive, showing the increase in FreeBSD >> downloads, I've been branded as a "zealot," as "hyping" FreeBSD, and as >> a stooge for large corporations. I didn't realize that the religious >> fervor among the Stallmanites was so intense, or that they had the blinders >> on so tight. > >Part of this is because you quote Slackware numbers at them. The numbers >are overall (Linux is going linear growth, FreeBSD still on exponential), >not just against Slackware. > >And all of it is anecdotes. > >Eivind. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 16:29:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27840 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:29:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27826 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:29:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA00387; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:27:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:27:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Anatoly Vorobey cc: ac199@hwcn.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <19980504111800.32162@techunix.technion.ac.il> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > You demonstrate a flawed understanding of how SMTP/POP/IMAP > work. They do not allow you to choose parts of the message to > pull because that would not be useful. Your analogy is doubly Yes, exactly!! To continue the analogy, even... If you send some people a MIME message, they will not be able to (easily) read it. Similarly, Lynx can't read some web pages. Similarly, pages which depend on too many graphics will not work well on computers that can't handle them (due to bandwidth or cpu limitations). You have to realize that medium != transport method. HTTP is not the web. > > No we're not. We're talking about filtering ads. > > No we're not. We're talking about (strictly) filtering HTTP > connections that math a certain patterns usually based on their > target URL. And you are choosing these patterns on a basis other than "these are ads --- remove them"? If not, then we're talking about filtering ads. > large fat gif (or jpeg or whatever). What you want, however, is that > I would be unable to define precisely just what is "large, fat, > unnecessary" for me and what isn't. No, what I want is that for you to recognize that people give you information with a certain price attached. When you delibrately avoid paying that price, you are stealing. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 16:41:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29567 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com (ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA29556; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:41:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA00401; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:39:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:39:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Matthew N. Dodd" cc: Tim Vanderhoek , Tim Vanderhoek , Eivind Eklund , Matthew Hunt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > No we're not. We're talking about filtering ads. Eivind long > > ago agreed that a program which filters large, fat, unnecessary > > gifs has definate potential use. I agreed with him implicitly. > > No, in the case where we filter ads we do so because they cause specific > pages to be delayed in loading. Altavista for example would not have > their ads filtered because they load quickly and are fairly well > integrated with the page. Then you're not filtering their ads. Continue not filtering ads and keep your conscience clear. > Since you're somewhat slow I'll explain how HTML/HTTP work with respect to > loading these images. Now you're just being silly. I know quite well how the web and the protocals it uses work. > image loading completly if we desire.) By use of IJB and others, we give > ourselves the ability to do a number of useful things (not load images, > de-interlace interlaced gifs, etc.) That's different from filtering ads! > Just think of what web caching proxies do to banner stats on static pages. > (Which is why most banners are on pages are dynamic and provide hints for > caching proxies not to cache them.) Advertising is all statistics. For example, magazines do surveys to see how much second-hand readership they get, for the purposes of setting the ad-rates. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 17:01:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03406 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:01:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03378; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from const. (tulip29.verinet.com [199.45.181.221]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA28389; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:01:11 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25441; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:01:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:01:31 -0600 (MDT) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199805050001.SAA25441@const.> To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no, dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > David Kelly writes: > > I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser > > source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same > > with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well, > > at least not much in IBM scale. > > You might be surprised. > > The reason why you're not seeing OS/2 very much any more is that IBM > is no longer marketing it as an end-user OS, which does not mean that > they're not making any money selling it. I noticed the 390 site is promoting system management tools implemented on OS/2. It seems OS/2 has a role to play as the PC client for the big iron. -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 17:31:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09148 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:31:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com (ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09054 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:30:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA00440; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:28:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:28:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Anatoly Vorobey cc: Eivind Eklund , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <19980504181752.37647@techunix.technion.ac.il> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good grief. Do you realize you just sent a 16kB message complaining about ads wasting your bandwidth? On Mon, 4 May 1998, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > lengthy message. As latter, it doesn't look good at all. First, there's > an obvious internal contradiction in terms. If the stuff is _free_, you > _do not_ pay for it - either with dollars or your attention and fatigue at > seeing ads. If you MUST PAY for it, it's no longer free, that's all. And this is why it's a 16kB message. I think we all understand what the message you are replying to meant by "free". > Your claim is inaccurate in any case. Reverse-engineering is illegal in some > places not because it's filtering (again, as I tried to explain above, Shhh... Don't tell anyone, but the reverse-engineering argument is a red-herring. (Sorry Eivind :). Reverse-engineering applies to something you have already paid for (further arguments about such ownership ever being possible or not proceed to enter The Stallman Zone and become almost totally irrelevant). This discussion is about whether or not to pay at all. > ijb doesn't, technically, do filtering. Firewalls do filtering. ijb > helps avoid initiating needless HTTP connections) and may change the end > user's perception of the product (be it a Web page or a commercial > software program). The law doesn't care about that one little bit. Actually, it looks like the law probably will care. Consider for example that clicking on an "Ok" button in a webpage is expected to be legally binding, should such a decision be forced at a high-level court. If we were to use such an approach, even signatures wouldn't be legally binding since they are, after all, merely chemical processes. > No good. Wrong medium. If they put HTML files on their server in > (for example) public_html directory with right permissions, _they_ > are implicitly agreeing that everyone in the world can make an HTTP > request and get that file and do with it anything he wants on his > own computer. That's the freedom the medium defines for everybody. Not. Meet the real world. If you leave your car unguarded by an armed security guard, it is free for me to take. That is the freedom of the medium. Is that the kind of freedom you believe in? Where every car must be guarded 24/7? > the simplest way: click on a link, see a file. And yet, at the same time, > force you to pay in your time, for example, by watching their ad. They > want a free ride. This is inane. If you don't want to pay, don't read their information. You sound as if you actually believe it is your God-given right to have others write information for you! > Same here. In your ethical model, someone who watches the site and not > the ads is a thief, just like someone who stole an apple. It may be Heh. And I suppose you still think that those disagreeing with you believe it is stealing to get a sandwich during TV commercials. _Someone_using_Lynx_has_not_installed_a_device_to_ remove_ads! > > What is your model for paying for content? That's what we're talking about > > here. Talking about 'nature of the medium' is IMO a strawman argument - how > > do you think the production of content should be paid for? I'm not talking > > about 'making it profitable' - I'm talking of paying actual costs. > > Strawman argument is when you attack not your opponent's ideas, but a weaker > version of them built by yourself for that purpose. Where is it here? > I'm attacking specifically what you say, by arguing that I'm morally > and legally free to look at what I want, from the variety of files available > for HTTP download off the Web. You're trying to build part of you argument on a somewhat anarchistic religious idea. In the real world of the living, who need to eat, how would you have information written or services (such as Yahoo) funded without ads? > I'm attacking specifically what you say, by arguing that I'm morally Yes, it's easy to attack. Can you suggest a real practical alternative for our world? > The production of content may be paid for in many different ways. They > usually involve restricted access to the resource and/or different > medium than simple Web browsing. No, I'm not happy if a resource stops > being free for download and starts charging money per access. But it > doesn't mean I should give up my freedom to see what I want. Oh, so you would rather see what you don't want? Uh. Ok. Sure. :) I suspect you don't even realize how much you don't want it, long-term. Can you say "information underprivileged class". With all the problems that current underclasses bring. I'd much rather see what I want, thanks. > Wrong analogy. Payment-removal system forces you to pay before you use > [or use all features]. There's nothing similar in a file being offered > for HTTP download on a public server. If ijb was a tool to > circumvent passwords in .htaccess protected directories, your analogy > would hold water. As it isn't, it doesn't. Oh? Why? After all, if the passwords can be circumvented, that's the nature of the medium. > As I said, I wasn't offended. Your calling me a pirate and a cracker > is laughable, not offensive, because it's so ridiculous; it speaks > volumes about your confusion in the matter. Heh. > What you fail to understand is that when your friend puts an HTML file > in a free-for-taking medium - the Web - he loses the ability > and justification, legal or moral, to demand payment for DLing this Anatoly, meet the real world. World, Anatoly. The Web is not the domain of a small commune of hackers. Hardly ever was, actually. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 17:59:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14347 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:59:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mph124.rh.psu.edu (mph@MPH124.rh.psu.edu [128.118.126.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA14233 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:59:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@mph124.rh.psu.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by mph124.rh.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10178; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:59:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mph) Message-ID: <19980504205912.A10167@mph124.rh.psu.edu> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:59:12 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/6511: New port: xabacus-5.4.4 References: <199805042250.PAA00353@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805042250.PAA00353@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:50:01PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:50:01PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > This is a port of Abacus for X Window System. > > Woohoo! My life is now complete! ;-) edit-pr 6511 /freebsd-ports 14sjkh :wq His life is now complete! ^D -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://mph124.rh.psu.edu/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 18:41:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21842 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:41:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com (ppp1554.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21633 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA00605; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:37:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:37:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@ppp6586.on.bellglobal.com Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Josh Gilliam cc: Julian Elischer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C-BASIC anyone? (only oldies need apply :-) In-Reply-To: <19980504042034.B11688@newport-1-13.quick.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Mon, 4 May 1998, Josh Gilliam wrote: > There is a QuickBASIC to C translator at > ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/devel/lang/basic/qb2c.tgz > > It isn't very useful but has Berkeley-style licensing. No unless it's really improved lately, it isn't very useful. :) I once wrote my own QuickBasic ->C compiler ("qb3c"), but it's way too embarrassing an affair to mention it here. It does have a fairly good grammar for parsing QB code, though (only 3 shift/reduce conflicts, despite handling most QB constructs (subs, multi-dimensional arrays, user-defined types)). -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 19:17:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28721 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:17:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28673; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:17:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17681; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> To: Brett Glass cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 17:23:20 MDT." <199805042323.RAA11721@lariat.lariat.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 19:16:02 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >I was under the impression that dg had recently published hard numbers >showing this trend. It'd certainly help to quote them there. No, I've never quoted hard numbers. I think doing so, as a contractor for WC CDROM, would be unethical and possibly illegal. I think it would be best to drop this type of 'attack' against the Stallmanites as it will only serve to further polarize people against us and I definately DON'T want that to happen. We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and working on converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of rhetoric. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 20:33:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11700 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11690; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id UAA18764; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:33:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:33:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review. In their April issue we find the following: "FreeBSD, for example, is most robust at supporting high-end servers on Pentium hardware, as its TCP/IP stack is derivative of the extremely mature stack developed under DARPA's aegis at Berkeley, and it has been extensively optimized for Pentium hardware. Mr. Protocol prefers it for his own desktop network system, and it makes a good liniment and furniture polish as well". This is from "Ask Mr. Protocol" section written by Michael O'Brien -- it talked about free source and etc. Comments go to amp@cpg.com -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 21:14:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16480 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:14:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16353; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:13:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14997; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:13:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805050413.WAA14997@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:13:47 -0600 To: dg@root.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, since FreeBSD is the underdog, the aftermath of even a knock-down drag-out brawl would, in the long run, help it, because it would raise awareness. Since people don't take EITHER side in such a free-for-all at face value, they usually decide they want to find out for themselves. Which benefits the product that's less widely known -- in this case, FreeBSD. Now, I'm not saying that I *like* such brawls or want to see them -- only that if they do happen they won't hurt the cause in the long run. Silence will. I agree that WC CD-ROM should approve any release of numbers. But why wouldn't they, if it gave them an opportunity to boost sales? --Brett At 07:16 PM 5/4/98 -0700, David Greenman wrote: >>I was under the impression that dg had recently published hard numbers >>showing this trend. It'd certainly help to quote them there. > > No, I've never quoted hard numbers. I think doing so, as a contractor for >WC CDROM, would be unethical and possibly illegal. I think it would be best >to drop this type of 'attack' against the Stallmanites as it will only serve >to further polarize people against us and I definately DON'T want that to >happen. We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and >working on converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of >rhetoric. > >-DG > >David Greenman >Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 21:44:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21174 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:44:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21136 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:43:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA08835; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:43:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 14:54:15 MDT." <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:43:37 -0700 Message-ID: <8830.894343417@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "Send me information on a conmmercial FreeBSD vendor with a > $1M annual > runrate and I'll use it." That'd be Walnut Creek CDROM, for one. They do easily over $1M in FreeBSD business a year. However, there's also the fact that I really could care less just what Eric Raymond has to say or thinks about free software because his opinion is no more objective than, say, Bill Gates' on the topic. I bear the man no personal animosity, don't get me wrong, but it's also extremely clear that he's a Man On A Mission where it comes to Linux and any pretense of impartiality on his part would be laughable. To his credit, I don't believe he's ever claimed such impartiality either and I'd certainly no more attempt to convince Eric Raymond to help plug FreeBSD or even report on it objectively than I would Linus Torvalds. In one very definite sense, he's "the competition" and I'm no more surprised to see paeans to Linux on www.opensource.org (however poorly named it might be) than I am to see them at www.redhat.com. Sorry, them's just the facts! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 21:44:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21276 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:44:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21251 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:44:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA16289; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:44:16 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs NetBSD Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 04:46:18 GMT Message-ID: <354e9927.8556243@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199805041901.OAA00453@dyson.iquest.net> In-Reply-To: <199805041901.OAA00453@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id VAA21258 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998 14:01:03 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" wrote: >FreeBSD and NetBSD are both used and redistributed at NCI. NetBSD is >the client OS (for portability), and FreeBSD is the server OS (for >scalability and performance.) I read on NetBSD's web page they will soon have a new VM. I wonder how their performance will scale then. I might have to try it out. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 21:54:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22539 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:54:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22517 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:54:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA21044; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:56:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199805050456.OAA21044@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs NetBSD In-Reply-To: <354e9927.8556243@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "May 5, 98 04:46:18 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:56:25 +1000 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Kelly wrote: > I read on NetBSD's web page they will soon have a new VM. I wonder > how their performance will scale then. I might have to try it out. The one architecture that it doesn't work on yet is i386. 8-) Chuck Cranor says he's working on it. They've just swapped Alpha and x68k ports to it. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 22:20:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA26520 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:20:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA26478 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:20:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03775; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:20:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805050520.AAA03775@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs NetBSD In-Reply-To: <354e9927.8556243@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "May 5, 98 04:46:18 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 00:20:20 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Kelly said: > On Mon, 4 May 1998 14:01:03 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" > wrote: > > >FreeBSD and NetBSD are both used and redistributed at NCI. NetBSD is > >the client OS (for portability), and FreeBSD is the server OS (for > >scalability and performance.) > > I read on NetBSD's web page they will soon have a new VM. I wonder > how their performance will scale then. I might have to try it out. > I have been watching their progress, and have some info. It is a long way (> 1yr) before approaching what we have. There *are* some architectural issues regarding the MACH based FreeBSD VM where there are still some challenges. Every challenge where there has been found a significant problem with the FreeBSD code has been met and solved satisfactorily. I don't think that you'll find anything out there today (including with UVM or Linux) that will outperform FreeBSD VM in real world loaded applications. Even given that, we can still gain approx 50% more performance with fork(), and if there is a speed challenge there (where it would have a real world performance impact), it can be resolved fairly quickly... (It would have been improved already, but in reality, we are down in the noise for most apps now.) I had a solution to leak problem that Chuck was talking about, and simply wasn't convinced that it was worth destabilizing the system to fix, until it was exposed. If you ever find a place where FreeBSD is slower running real apps compared with any other OS, let me know the details, and I'll work the issue. The MACH VM has some architectural advantages, and the only problem with it has been that it wasn't finished. There is a lot of steam left in our VM code, and it is nowhere near legacy, and if anything, it is way ahead of it's time. We are also getting contribution of ideas from various MACH VM experts, who have a different perspective than myself. There are some more architectural improvements forthcoming. :-). Note that the version of the VM code that I am running is significantly faster than what was in -current 5days ago (not from a LL, lmbench type measurement, but from a responsivness under load perspective.) I am still trying to figure out why it is as nice as it is. The code that I am running has better (existant) object locking and a few other new features. It will be interesting to really figure out why it is so quick. We have had some interesting features in -current, but haven't been enabled due to a lack of NEED right now, including zero copy IN/OUT of the kernel (only out is implemented right now, but in is an equivalent problem to solve, and will probably reserve that for AIO, due to API issues.) This is fairly easy to do with our relatively clean VM code, where object sharing and the like are natural capabilities. I really do think that NetBSD will be better off than they were with UVM as opposed to the orignal MACH VM code that they have been using. We knew that the code needed fixing 4yrs ago, and decided upon an evolutionary approach, rather than a revolutionary approach. If I was to do it over again, I would have had more confidence in our approach, than I did 3+yrs ago. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 22:40:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29004 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:40:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28981; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:40:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06755; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:40:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805050540.WAA06755@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 17:23:20 MDT." <199805042323.RAA11721@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:40:09 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Three out of the top of my head: Walnut Creek, Yahoo, Whistle... Also, I happen to have worked for a company which have sold multi million dollar systems which use FreeBSD. Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 22:56:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00771 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:56:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00751 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:56:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06944; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:56:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805050556.WAA06944@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Grendell cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Opinions wanted In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 09:41:50 MDT." <354DE1BE.167EB0E7@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:56:16 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm considering installing a linux distribution to compare with my > freebsd (2.2.5 Release). For those of you running both freebsd and > linux, which linux distribution would you recommend to compliment > freebsd? Which linux distribution co-exists best with freebsd? > > This is NOT linux vs freebsd mail. I would just like to know what linux > distribution freebsd users feel most comfortable with. > > Thanks. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message I don't feel comfortable with any linux distribution so far I have tried slackware and redhat 5.0 . If someone can point me to a nice linux distribution I would very much would like to hear about it . Typically, I run FreeBSD however I have win98, win95, win nt 5.0 on spread out on my two systems. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 23:32:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04272 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:32:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA04242; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:32:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04056; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:32:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805050632.BAA04056@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-Reply-To: <199805050540.WAA06755@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 4, 98 10:40:09 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:32:23 -0500 (EST) Cc: brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty said: > > Three out of the top of my head: > Walnut Creek, Yahoo, Whistle... > > Also, I happen to have worked for a company which have sold multi million > dollar systems which use FreeBSD. > The biggest problem that I have with criteria like $1M or somesuch is that kind of info is often proprietary, and serious businesses often don't freely release such info in detail. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 4 23:37:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05238 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:37:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05203; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:37:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07404; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:37:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805050637.XAA07404@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 01:32:23 CDT." <199805050632.BAA04056@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 23:37:36 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, We can just state that some companies made > $1M in other words that they are a serious business and that the details are confidential. With respect to the linux side, we can always ask for detail financial data to backup their claims 8) Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 00:19:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10643 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA10638; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:19:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16851; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:19:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805050719.BAA16851@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 01:19:17 -0600 To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199805050632.BAA04056@dyson.iquest.net> References: <199805050540.WAA06755@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:32 AM 5/5/98 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >The biggest problem that I have with criteria like $1M or somesuch >is that kind of info is often proprietary, and serious businesses >often don't freely release such info in detail. > >-- >John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, >dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, >jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. There's a bigger problem still. What about new products? Or small ones that can't command a high price on their own but could e added to a larger package? Eric claims that the site is designed to interest businesses in selling copies of "open source" software. But those businesspeople aren't dumb; they don't want to hear about the items that 20 vendors are already selling. They're looking for "sleepers" and for new opportunities. But if a product has to be grossing $1M to get in the door, forget that. I also noted, when talking to Eric, that all of the Linux vendors make it difficult or impossible to do a Net install. (Red Hat, for example, can't use PPP. What percentage of Net users out there have something other than a dial-up connection? And Debian and Slackware can't do it at all, to my knowledge.) So, they'll sell more disks -- even if they have a smaller installed base. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 00:38:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13429 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:38:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA13401; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:38:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA07880; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805050738.AAA07880@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 01:19:17 MDT." <199805050719.BAA16851@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:38:28 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We can setup our own version of opensource web page and include linux related companies on small fonts . Additionally, as you suggested we can have a different criteria for entering products or companies for instance cool products which uses an alternative OS :FreeBSD. In other words, we can create our own FreeBSD slanted sites . Cool sites : http://www.thinker.org serves images from its 3 tera byte plus image database. Yahoo! it is FreeBSD : nice pointer to our news letter. And the Comdex network appliance winner is ... The InterJet by Whistle Corporation . Guess what OS the InterJet runs? FreeBSD of course. Sleep safely because FreeBSD is watching the skies ( a little while ago someone was using FreeBSD for radar control ) Fly in comfort with jet engines designed with FreeBSD ( there was a company in the list designing jet engines with FreeBSD) Too bad we can not afford a Wall Street Journal full page ad :( Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 00:40:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13977 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:40:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA13868; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:40:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA11650; Tue, 5 May 1998 17:10:01 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980505171001.V4777@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:10:01 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jan B. Koum " , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up. References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:20PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 20:33:20 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review. > In their April issue we find the following: > "FreeBSD, for example, is most robust at supporting high-end servers on > Pentium hardware, as its TCP/IP stack is derivative of the extremely > mature stack developed under DARPA's aegis at Berkeley, and it has been > extensively optimized for Pentium hardware. Mr. Protocol prefers it for > his own desktop network system, and it makes a good liniment and furniture > polish as well". > This is from "Ask Mr. Protocol" section written by Michael O'Brien > -- it talked about free source and etc. Comments go to amp@cpg.com Hmm, that wouldn't be our Mike O'Brien now, would it? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 00:58:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17243 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:58:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.webweaver.net (xwin.webweaver.net [208.138.29.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17219; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:58:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.webweaver.net) Received: (from nicole@localhost) by xwin.webweaver.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id AAA08036; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:59:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199805050540.WAA06755@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:59:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Eivind Eklund , Brett Glass Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA17224 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-May-98 Amancio Hasty wisely wrote: > > Three out of the top of my head: > Walnut Creek, Yahoo, Whistle... > > Also, I happen to have worked for a company which have sold multi million > dollar systems which use FreeBSD. > > Cheers, > Amancio If I manage to get my way at work, most all of our systems will be FreeBSD. The new venrure will start will about 10 Servers being supported by 2 netapps to grow to support 100-200K users. On top of the already 10 servers we have now. The Commerce stuff will most likely go to the Sun Slowaris stuff however :< BTW: Sysadmin wanted: Must be FreeBSD freindly, Willing to work hard and cheap for fast growing start up. Lots of oportunity to learrn and play with cool toys. Prima Dona's need not apply. Experience is good, however willingness to learn and contibute to a group is even better! Send email to nicole@mediacity.com nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ ------------------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 03:10:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA09890 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:10:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA09742; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:09:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id MAA11189; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:09:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:09:54 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805041913.OAA00519@dyson.iquest.net> Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse / KRST / PUMS / YASMW X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 05 May 1998 12:09:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: "John S. Dyson"'s message of "Mon, 4 May 1998 14:13:29 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "John S. Dyson" writes: > FWIW, very little of what I do for NCI is being restricted. Sometimes > it is, but not much. It seems that Whistle is also freely contributing > work back. IMO, the issue of companies "hoarding" all of the good software > is a canard. Except for Microsoft. Oh, sorry, you wrote *good* software... ;) -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 03:47:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA15449 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:47:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA15411 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:46:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from acme.gen.nz by cc-server9.massey.ac.nz id <20754-0@cc-server9.massey.ac.nz>; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:18:15 +1200 Received: from officedonkey by acme.gen.nz with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0yWU7F-0028ziC; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:53:45 +1200 Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:42:40 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Junk Buster (was Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported source Reply-to: crh@outpost.co.nz References: <19980504050129.52485@follo.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm interested in this thread. I think, Eivind, where you're coming from is that, as a developer of web-content, your business model is based on the existing model of WWW interaction. People surf web, people look at pages, people see ads on pages while they're looking at other stuff, and the ads pay for the pages' creation and ongoing upkeep. The problem is, and why I think you're feeling so threatened, is that this isn't necessarily the One True Business Model for the Net. It may be the dominant model for commercial WWW sites at the moment, but that's merely as a result of random circumstance. You have the right to feel threatened, but I think your grounds for arguing a *moral* right are very shaky indeed. It's possibly that Net-related law could evolve to the point where what you perceive as a right to have your pages displayed with all ads intact becomes protected by the courts. But I'd consider this sort of legislation a sad day indeed for the Net. Actual copyright lawyers may argue differently, but I think such a legal argument would be difficult to win with today. Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > If TV and Radio stations sold advertising the way you do nobody > would advertise as the statement 'we -think- your add will be played > 5 times a day but aren't quite sure.' would be highly offensive to > the people buying advertising space from you. Actually, the way TV & radio stations sell advertising is a lot less deterministic than counting ad hits on web pages. It's way, way, way less scientific and the media advertising industry only works through a vast consensual hallucination - the radio or TV station state that their survey figures actually mean something, and the ad agencies and advertisers choose to believe that the TV & radio stations say. For example, TV stations will tell you that people actually do watch TV commercials, yet when university marketing departments do actual consumer research they find that when ad breaks come on, people go to the toilet, make a coffee, surf channels, mute the sound, have a conversation, make a snack, read a newspaper, almost anything but actually watch the commercial. And yet no-one believes the university researchers, because they can't afford to. A multi-billion dollar global industry would be under threat if the Emperor really was wearing no clothes. You're seeing exactly the same thing in Eivind's arguments. The WWW community can't afford to believe that there is an alternative model, or everybody goes out of business overnight. Hence it becomes a moral issue. -- C "we'll be right back, after this message from our sponsor" -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 03:47:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA15487 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA15377 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:46:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from acme.gen.nz by cc-server9.massey.ac.nz id <20740-0@cc-server9.massey.ac.nz>; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:18:13 +1200 Received: from officedonkey by acme.gen.nz with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0yWU7F-0028zsC; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:53:45 +1200 Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:42:40 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: 3D "blender" package from NeoGeo now released. Reply-to: crh@outpost.co.nz References: <199805040055.RAA04394@rah.star-gate.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > The problem with trying to convince some of the people here to > use this package is that I don't have the slightest idea of what to > do with a sophisticated 3D package... Don't worry, I do, and I'm sure others will. Expect to see a whizzy FreeBSD animated logo.... sometime. The really impressive part, is that it actually works. FreeBSD with enlightenment and an app like blender is actually a pretty funky looking graphical environment! Way to go, team, this OS rocks! -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 05:06:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26747 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:06:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sun-test.hightek.com ([194.74.141.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA26730; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm2.hightek.com) Received: from klemm2.hightek.com ([195.90.203.76]) by sun-test.hightek.com (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAA15790; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:06:08 +0200 Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm2.hightek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23890; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:06:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980505140606.09773@hightek.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:06:06 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: "Jan B. Koum " , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up. References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:20PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:20PM -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review. > In their April issue we find the following: URL ? I doesn't find it ... :-/ -- B&K Gruppe - Wuppertal phone +49 202 7399 - 170 fax +49 202 7399 - 100 http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 05:20:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA00223 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:20:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA29797 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:19:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA03138; Tue, 5 May 1998 15:18:03 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980505151801.58541@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:18:01 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:11:50 +0300 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:28:24PM -0400 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Tim Vanderhoek, were spotted writing this on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:28:24PM -0400: > > Good grief. Do you realize you just sent a 16kB message > complaining about ads wasting your bandwidth? Another prejediced opinion. I never even used the word 'bandwidth' in this thread before, what made you think that was my primary concern with ads? It isn't. Ads are ugly, I'm annoyed and fatigued by them. They presume viewer's intelligence to be on the level of a toddler, and they are invariably crappy as art. In general, advertisements are one of the most ugly and despisable features of our modern world (and yes, I know they're necessary in our world, please spare me yet another silly 'meet the world' slogan). As a minor example, ads on TV (along with most of the TV programs themselves) are one of the major causes of shortening attention span of kids and teenagers, and, as a consequence, reduced intelligence. It may be that in your opinion, all of these are laughable reasons to dislike ads and avoid seeing them, but they aren't for me. > > lengthy message. As latter, it doesn't look good at all. First, there's > > an obvious internal contradiction in terms. If the stuff is _free_, you > > _do not_ pay for it - either with dollars or your attention and fatigue at > > seeing ads. If you MUST PAY for it, it's no longer free, that's all. > > And this is why it's a 16kB message. I think we all understand > what the message you are replying to meant by "free". Yes, we do. I wasn't teaching English language; I was pointing out important difference between "free content" and "free content, as in content for which you pay with something other than money". While everyone understands the difference, it's rarely spelled out and stressed; more's the pity. As a FreeBSD supporter, you certainly should know the difference between "free to use as you wish with proper acknowledgement" and "free to use as you wish, but you must pay by adhering to the viral license". > > ijb doesn't, technically, do filtering. Firewalls do filtering. ijb > > helps avoid initiating needless HTTP connections) and may change the end > > user's perception of the product (be it a Web page or a commercial > > software program). The law doesn't care about that one little bit. > > Actually, it looks like the law probably will care. Consider for > example that clicking on an "Ok" button in a webpage is expected > to be legally binding, should such a decision be forced at a > high-level court. If we were to use such an approach, even > signatures wouldn't be legally binding since they are, after all, > merely chemical processes. I'm not saying that digital matters aren't legally binding, but only that the law kicks in only when you consider modification AND redistribution. As you said yourself, reverse-engineering doesn't apply, so even modification (and I must remind you again that ijb doesn't modify HTML) should be OK as long as you don't redistribute your copy publicly. > > No good. Wrong medium. If they put HTML files on their server in > > (for example) public_html directory with right permissions, _they_ > > are implicitly agreeing that everyone in the world can make an HTTP > > request and get that file and do with it anything he wants on his > > own computer. That's the freedom the medium defines for everybody. > > Not. Meet the real world. If you leave your car unguarded by an > armed security guard, it is free for me to take. That is the > freedom of the medium. Is that the kind of freedom you believe > in? Where every car must be guarded 24/7? I can't believe you don't see how silly this analogy is. When you leave a car unguarded, you do NOT intend for it to be stolen. When you put a file on a Web server, you explicitly intend for it to be fetched with HTTP. Sigh. Here's yet another analogy for you, maybe this one will get through. Suppose you watch public television channel (or even cable TV for which you already paid) and suddenly there's something on it, sitcom, soap opera or whatever, which starts with big message on the screen: "If you want to see this programme, please send $25 in cash to this address immediately. Otherwise you're ripping off poor starving content producers". Will you feel morally or legally obliged to avoid watching this program unless you send away your cash immediately? Do you think that, in fact, all citizen of the country watching this at the instant ought to send in their money at once? The medium of TV doesn't allow to require you (morally or legally) to pay in this way, while on the other hand it does allow, for example, to require you to pay by watching an ordinary ad, which of course you may elect not to watch. > > the simplest way: click on a link, see a file. And yet, at the same time, > > force you to pay in your time, for example, by watching their ad. They > > want a free ride. > > This is inane. If you don't want to pay, don't read their > information. You sound as if you actually believe it is your > God-given right to have others write information for you! No way. Noone has to write any information for me, AND I don't have to pay anyone for anything automatically. If I elect not to pay for some information, its owner is free to not let me have this information. If the owner chooses a medium which lets as many people as posible to watch his information freely, he loses the moral justification to demand payment from me. There's a subtle difference here which perhaps you don't feel. If there's a link to an informative file on some page and next to a link it's written: "Please don't click here unless you already paid me for the subscription to this info [subcr details]. I don't have technical means to implement proper protection of this valuable info, so I ask you personally not to use it unless you pay for it", I will probably not click on the link and won't go there. However, the person who wrote that does NOT want as many people as possible coming to that link. He's NOT taking a free ride on the medium, he explicitly asks you not to go unless you paid. A different manner is an ordinary site, http://www.something.com, which DOES want as many people as possible to come freely to its homepage, which indexes itself in all search engines and perhaps even advertises itself, and takes advantage of this free-for-all medium if it wants to morally/legally require me to pay in money, time or whatever else for reading it. It may always ask, of course, but not require. It usually doesn't even require, actually; it's you and Eivind who are doing holier-than-thou act and accuse ijb users of stealing revenue of the site. Hell, I use way too much time and energy here to justify my actions. The simple fact remains that a lot of people who are browsing with images turned off are pirates and thieves according to yours and Eivind's ethical model, which makes you, and not me, extremists. Excuses such as "they don't explictly filter ads" are irrelevant, because the simple fact, that they take content and don't pay for it, remains. > > Same here. In your ethical model, someone who watches the site and not > > the ads is a thief, just like someone who stole an apple. It may be > > Heh. And I suppose you still think that those disagreeing with > you believe it is stealing to get a sandwich during TV > commercials. No. I don't think so. Which makes it even more funny! You happen to think that not watching an ad during a TV commercial is OK. It goes against your own principles - the person is taking content but not paying for it - but it's socially acceptable everywhere so you perhaps don't feel like attacking it? What if someone watches the same sitcom everyday and _always_ doesn't watch the commercial because he dislikes them severely? How is that different from someone who goes to the same Web site everyday and _always_ doesn't watch the ads on this particular site? The net effect for "content producers" is absolutely the same! You will deny it saying that in TV case, there's no difference for the content producer in whether this particular person saw the ad or not as it's not being recorded in any way. But that's a poor excuse, because in case of _one single person_ not watching the ads the effect is absolutely negligible in any case. What worries you is that _many_ people will elect not to see ads on a Web site; but if many people elect not to see ads during that TV show, it'll turn up in polls, etc. and the content producers will also lose. Here's an even better example for you: suppose I modify ijb so that it'll always _load_ the ad, but will never pass it to my browser (ijb functions as a proxy). In this case, it's absolutely identical to the TV case outlined above. Will you say I'm behaving absolutely fairly? > _Someone_using_Lynx_has_not_installed_a_device_to_ > remove_ads! Neither have I, I have installed device which helps me avoid downloading what I don't want to see. Which happens to be ads, yes. How is intent relevant in this case _if_the_content_producer_is_being_ ripped_off? Since then is ignorance of the law [moral or legal] a justification to break it? > > I'm attacking specifically what you say, by arguing that I'm morally > > and legally free to look at what I want, from the variety of files available > > for HTTP download off the Web. > > You're trying to build part of you argument on a somewhat > anarchistic religious idea. _That_ is really interesting. I don't want to specifically pull of the Web site files that annoy me and don't interest me. THAT is a 'anarchistic religious idea'? > In the real world of the living, who > need to eat, how would you have information written or services > (such as Yahoo) funded without ads? In the real world of the living, how do you think television continues to exist in spite of the fact (explained to you previously) that there exist devices which automatically switch off ads on your TV? Because the majority of people doesn't bother, of course. That's their right, as it is _my_ right to be bothered. Do you honestly think that the millions of people browsing the Web _right_now_ see ads because they feel they ought to help poor content producers of the site they're visiting? > > I'm attacking specifically what you say, by arguing that I'm morally > > Yes, it's easy to attack. Can you suggest a real practical > alternative for our world? I don't see a need for one. Although there are already inexpensive commercial products which filter ads, and there have been several free products for quite some time, the great majority of people remains in blissful ignorance of such products and probably wouldn't bother if they did know. Even if such a facility becomes a part of a major browser, the fact remains that most of the people using Web don't ever get to the 'Preferences' dialog of their browser, let alone 'Advanced Preferences'. So I don't see any great hazard to advertisement model of the Web, however much I dislike it. You asked for a real world assessment - here it is then. > > The production of content may be paid for in many different ways. They > > usually involve restricted access to the resource and/or different > > medium than simple Web browsing. No, I'm not happy if a resource stops > > being free for download and starts charging money per access. But it > > doesn't mean I should give up my freedom to see what I want. > > Oh, so you would rather see what you don't want? Uh. Ok. Sure. > :) I suspect you don't even realize how much you don't want it, > long-term. Can you say "information underprivileged class". > With all the problems that current underclasses bring. I'd much > rather see what I want, thanks. Oh my. As if you don't pay for information right now, in many ways all the time. Or maybe it's time for _you_ to bring up the slogan "information wants to be free"? ;) > > Wrong analogy. Payment-removal system forces you to pay before you use > > [or use all features]. There's nothing similar in a file being offered > > for HTTP download on a public server. If ijb was a tool to > > circumvent passwords in .htaccess protected directories, your analogy > > would hold water. As it isn't, it doesn't. > > Oh? Why? After all, if the passwords can be circumvented, > that's the nature of the medium. No it isn't, and you know that very well. If you want to play games of deliberate misunderstanding, I'm not excited. > > What you fail to understand is that when your friend puts an HTML file > > in a free-for-taking medium - the Web - he loses the ability > > and justification, legal or moral, to demand payment for DLing this > > Anatoly, meet the real world. World, Anatoly. The Web is not > the domain of a small commune of hackers. Hardly ever was, > actually. That was a fine piece of rhetorics, although I must admit I failed to understand its relevance. Did I ever say or simply that the Web is a domain of a small commune of hackers? Boy, what a dummy I must have been when I implied that! Can you explain to me how you reached that conclusion? Although perhaps now it's time for you to finish the logical chain. I mean, I'm already a 'cracker' and a 'pirate', and now I'm a closed-mind hacker who thinks Web consists only of people like me. Perhaps all hackers are crackers and pirates, did you consider that exciting posssibility? Sincerely, Anatoly. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 06:45:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16731 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 06:45:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mozart.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA16717; Tue, 5 May 1998 06:44:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by mozart.canonware.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA18129; Tue, 5 May 1998 06:41:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) X-Authentication-Warning: mozart.canonware.com: jasone owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 06:41:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Evans To: "John S. Dyson" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs NetBSD In-Reply-To: <199805050520.AAA03775@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 May 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > We have had some interesting features in -current, but haven't been > enabled due to a lack of NEED right now, including zero copy IN/OUT > of the kernel (only out is implemented right now, but in is an equivalent > problem to solve, and will probably reserve that for AIO, due to API issues.) > This is fairly easy to do with our relatively clean VM code, where object > sharing and the like are natural capabilities. John, do you expect that AIO will make it into 3.0? What are the as yet unresolved issues with AIO? Jason (who really needs to install -current on a machine) Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Web: [http://www.canonware.com/~jasone] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 08:34:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05922 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:34:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.seanet.com (dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05895 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:34:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sab@dniquote.com) Received: from mail.dniquote.com (mail.dniquote.com [204.182.126.234]) by mx.seanet.com (8.8.8/Seanet-8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA18160 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sab@localhost) by mail.dniquote.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27193; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:34:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sab) Message-ID: <19980505083419.B27105@dniquote.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:34:19 -0700 From: Scott Blachowicz To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FW: SPUG: TCI Pub Access Orientation Report Reply-To: Scott Blachowicz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Some locals (around here in the Seattle area) are trying to put together an "Open Software" TV show for the cable system's public access channel. I thought I might forward this message to a FreeBSD list to see if there's any interested folks. [NOTE: I'm not involved with it myself...I'm just a messenger here. :-)] -- Scott Blachowicz sab@seanet.com --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Description: Forwarded message from Andrew Sweger Received: from krim.seanet.com (krim.seanet.com [199.181.164.11]) by mail.dniquote.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22041 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-spug-list-supa5kje@celestial.com) Received: from camco.celestial.com (camco.celestial.com [192.136.111.1]) by krim.seanet.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id WAA23790 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (2359 bytes) by camco.celestial.com via sendmail with P:stdio/D:lists/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: owner: ) id for spug-list-supa5kje; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:04:24 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #5 built 1998-May-2) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:04:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Sweger Reply-To: Andrew Sweger To: spug-list@seaslug.org Subject: SPUG: TCI Pub Access Orientation Report Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-spug-list@celestial.com Precedence: bulk X-Filter: mailagent [version 3.0 PL61] for sab@dniquote.com I went to the orientation last Saturday for the TCI Public Access station. Doesn't look like anyone else showed up. I gave a brief report at the Bootfest/Linux meeting that afternoon. For those that don't know, there is a group of folks talking about putting together an Open Software TV show. I wasn't involved in this project until last Friday, so I'm still coming up to speed on a few things. I will be sending my full report to the opensoft-show list before too long. Information on the opensoft-show list is below. This project will require a serious effort from a number of individuals. If you are at all interested in getting involved (i.e., volunteering) with the production of a television program that promotes Open Software, such as Perl, please get in touch with me or subscribe to the opensoft-show list. If you're not on that list, you may write to me for a copy of my report. The opensoft-show mailing list is a closed mailing list (I think that means you have to be a subscriber in order to post to the list). Subscription requests are handled by majordomo and approved by the list owner. I just subscribed over the weekend, no problem. If you would like to subscribe, send a message to majordomo@premier1.net with the following in the body of the message: subscribe opensoft-show -- Andrew Sweger "The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@seaslug.org SUBSCRIPTIONS: majordomo@seaslug.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@seaslug.org WEB-PAGE: www.halcyon.com/yumpy/spug/ To unZubscribe: Email to majordomo@seaslug.org: unZubscribe spug-list your_address (but change that capital Z to a small s and "your_address" to your Email --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 09:06:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11241 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:06:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11211; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01854; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:06:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805051606.LAA01854@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs NetBSD In-Reply-To: from Jason Evans at "May 5, 98 06:41:14 am" To: jasone@canonware.com (Jason Evans) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:06:37 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason Evans said: > On Tue, 5 May 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > We have had some interesting features in -current, but haven't been > > enabled due to a lack of NEED right now, including zero copy IN/OUT > > of the kernel (only out is implemented right now, but in is an equivalent > > problem to solve, and will probably reserve that for AIO, due to API issues.) > > This is fairly easy to do with our relatively clean VM code, where object > > sharing and the like are natural capabilities. > > John, do you expect that AIO will make it into 3.0? What are the as yet > unresolved issues with AIO? > > Jason (who really needs to install -current on a machine) > The major issue with AIO is that it won't work on a SMP machine. (Threads in general won't.) I have been working on the re-work of the pmap infrastructure so that it will work. There is also a missing system call (aio_fsync). I am not sure if it is in libc yet. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 09:14:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12336 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:14:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12313; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:14:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01913; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:14:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805051614.LAA01913@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs NetBSD In-Reply-To: from Jason Evans at "May 5, 98 06:41:14 am" To: jasone@canonware.com (Jason Evans) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:14:12 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason Evans said: > On Tue, 5 May 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > We have had some interesting features in -current, but haven't been > > enabled due to a lack of NEED right now, including zero copy IN/OUT > > of the kernel (only out is implemented right now, but in is an equivalent > > problem to solve, and will probably reserve that for AIO, due to API issues.) > > This is fairly easy to do with our relatively clean VM code, where object > > sharing and the like are natural capabilities. > > John, do you expect that AIO will make it into 3.0? > Yes, no question about that. That and a full SMP-safe kernel threads mechanism will be there. (Sorry for not answering this question fully earlier.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 10:29:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28262 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:29:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28240 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:29:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shogo@shell1.interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (shogo@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08037 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from shogo@localhost) by shell1.interlog.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23147; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:29:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Shogo To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org unsubscribe freebsd-chat shogo@interlog.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 10:53:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03794 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:53:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03762 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:53:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02708; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA20105; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805051752.KAA20105@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: C-BASIC anyone? (only oldies need apply :-) In-Reply-To: from Tim Vanderhoek at "May 4, 98 09:37:18 pm" To: ac199@hwcn.org Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: josh@quick.net, julian@whistle.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Tim Vanderhoek: > [moved to -chat] > > On Mon, 4 May 1998, Josh Gilliam wrote: > > > There is a QuickBASIC to C translator at > > ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/devel/lang/basic/qb2c.tgz > > > > It isn't very useful but has Berkeley-style licensing. > > No unless it's really improved lately, it isn't very useful. :) > I once wrote my own QuickBasic ->C compiler ("qb3c"), but it's > way too embarrassing an affair to mention it here. It does have > a fairly good grammar for parsing QB code, though (only 3 > shift/reduce conflicts, despite handling most QB constructs > (subs, multi-dimensional arrays, user-defined types)). > > Hmm. It would be interesting if there were a top-10 programs in QB that were converted to C. Does anyone outside of M$ honestly use BASIC? gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 10:59:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04613 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:59:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04580; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:59:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id KAA29678; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:59:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:59:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Andreas Klemm cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up. In-Reply-To: <19980505140606.09773@hightek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I typed the mail by hand -- no copy and paste from the web. The article might not be on the web yet -- don't know. Sorry :) -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. On Tue, 5 May 1998, Andreas Klemm wrote: >On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:20PM -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: >> >> Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review. >> In their April issue we find the following: > >URL ? I doesn't find it ... :-/ > >-- >B&K Gruppe - Wuppertal >phone +49 202 7399 - 170 >fax +49 202 7399 - 100 http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas/ > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 11:01:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05130 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:01:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05054; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:01:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id LAA00515; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:01:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:01:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Greg Lehey cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up. In-Reply-To: <19980505171001.V4777@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wouldn't know. Who is our Mike O'Brien btw -- I am bad with names? -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. On Tue, 5 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 20:33:20 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: >> >> Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review. >> In their April issue we find the following: >> "FreeBSD, for example, is most robust at supporting high-end servers on >> Pentium hardware, as its TCP/IP stack is derivative of the extremely >> mature stack developed under DARPA's aegis at Berkeley, and it has been >> extensively optimized for Pentium hardware. Mr. Protocol prefers it for >> his own desktop network system, and it makes a good liniment and furniture >> polish as well". >> This is from "Ask Mr. Protocol" section written by Michael O'Brien >> -- it talked about free source and etc. Comments go to amp@cpg.com > >Hmm, that wouldn't be our Mike O'Brien now, would it? > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 11:10:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06760 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:10:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06747; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:10:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03097; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:08:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA20197; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805051808.LAA20197@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-Reply-To: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "May 4, 98 07:16:02 pm" To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to David Greenman: > >I was under the impression that dg had recently published hard numbers > >showing this trend. It'd certainly help to quote them there. > > No, I've never quoted hard numbers. I think doing so, as a contractor for > WC CDROM, would be unethical and possibly illegal. I think it would be best > to drop this type of 'attack' against the Stallmanites as it will only serve > to further polarize people against us and I definately DON'T want that to > happen. We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and > working on converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of > rhetoric. > Finally a breath of fresh air. We in the BSD ``camp'' would do better to co-operate that compete. Any victory would be Pyrrhic at best. One reason we humans have survived these score millennia is because cooperation precedes competition. Individual effort sometimes yield brilliant results; cooperative, maximum. Both operating systems would gain if features from each were shared. Both the *BSD and *Linux OS's agree with the free software paradigm; it's a matter of degree. gary > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 12:27:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19893 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:27:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19852; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:27:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24410; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:25:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805051925.NAA24410@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:25:15 -0600 To: Gary Kline , dg@root.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199805051808.LAA20197@athena.tera.com> References: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:08 AM 5/5/98 -0700, Gary Kline wrote: > One reason we humans have survived these score millennia > is because cooperation precedes competition. Individual > effort sometimes yield brilliant results; cooperative, > maximum. Both operating systems would gain if features > from each were shared. > > Both the *BSD and *Linux OS's agree with the free software > paradigm; it's a matter of degree. One would certainly hope so! But tune in to that InfoWorld forum to see what's actually going on. Anyone who critiques the GPL is *immediately* branded a "Linux basher," a "zealot," or worse. Ditto anyone who points out areas in which FreeBSD has advantages over Linux. The rhetoric is *nasty*, guys. One can interpret all of this in different ways, but my take is that it's because Richard Stallman's vision -- which seeks to preclude the development of commercial software wherever possible -- relies on compelling authors to use the GPL. The presence of any alternative to the GPL -- and, especially, publicizing it -- throws a monkey wrench into the works! Hence the fury of those who bash the BSDs and tout the GPL as essential to the collaborative development of software. What can folks do? The key things to say are as follows: 1. The Berkeley-style license is an alternative to the GPL, and it has been shown to be at least equally effective in promoting the development of free software. 2. In addition, the Berkeley-style license promotes the development of commercial software, which is advantageous to all developers and to consumers. 3. FreeBSD, which is published under a Berkeley-style license, is every bit as good as Linux and is superior in many respects. All of these points are PROVABLY correct. Nonetheless, one will often be flamed for making them. I think the correct thing to do is to make them anyway, then walk away from the flames. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 12:49:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23404 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:49:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23380; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:49:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08741; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:49:36 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA01745; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:49:28 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980505214927.34624@follo.net> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:49:27 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Brett Glass , Gary Kline , dg@root.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates References: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> <199805051808.LAA20197@athena.tera.com> <199805051925.NAA24410@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199805051925.NAA24410@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, May 05, 1998 at 01:25:15PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 05, 1998 at 01:25:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:08 AM 5/5/98 -0700, Gary Kline wrote: > > > One reason we humans have survived these score millennia > > is because cooperation precedes competition. Individual > > effort sometimes yield brilliant results; cooperative, > > maximum. Both operating systems would gain if features > > from each were shared. > > > > Both the *BSD and *Linux OS's agree with the free software > > paradigm; it's a matter of degree. > > One would certainly hope so! But tune in to that InfoWorld forum > to see what's actually going on. Anyone who critiques the GPL > is *immediately* branded a "Linux basher," a "zealot," or worse. > Ditto anyone who points out areas in which FreeBSD has advantages > over Linux. The rhetoric is *nasty*, guys. Sorry - I don't agree. In the forums, you _do_ tend to come over as a zealot and Linux basher. (And claiming that I get this impression because I'm a closet Linuxial won't get you anywhere ;-) You'd come over much better if you qualified your statement to not only be technically correct, but also being correct in context (not holding back information etc). Be careful to give the correct impression, admit to weaknesses (or at least those weaknesses you can afford to admit to), and you can give an extremely honest impression - which is much more effective. The combination of technical excellence and an impression of honesty can easily convert lurkers (which probably should be the real target in the discussion). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 13:22:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28423 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:22:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28366; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:22:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03311; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:21:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805052021.NAA03311@rah.star-gate.com> To: Gary Kline cc: dg@root.com, brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 11:08:06 PDT." <199805051808.LAA20197@athena.tera.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3308.894399712.1@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:21:52 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Curious, why can't you post such nice message to the Infoworld forum?? Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 13:22:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28468 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:22:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28393; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:22:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14471; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:22:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354F74EF.8D087A45@plutotech.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:22:07 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jan B. Koum" CC: Greg Lehey , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Wouldn't know. Who is our Mike O'Brien btw -- I am bad with names? That'd be Mr Protocol---or, more accurately, the author of the Mr Protocol column. Check the byline. It's nice to have such a columnist as a FreeBSD user: the occasional plugs are definitely worthwhile. --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 13:56:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06287 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06201; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:56:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06832; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:55:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA21094; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805052055.NAA21094@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-Reply-To: <199805052021.NAA03311@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 5, 98 01:21:52 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: kline@tera.tera.com, dg@root.com, brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Amancio Hasty: > Curious, why can't you post such nice message to the Infoworld forum?? > What? and get flamed!!? What's their URL? Brett? David? Anybody? gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 14:02:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07792 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:02:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07707; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:01:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25689; Tue, 5 May 1998 15:01:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805052101.PAA25689@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:01:17 -0600 To: Gary Kline , hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: kline@tera.tera.com, dg@root.com, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com In-Reply-To: <199805052055.NAA21094@athena.tera.com> References: <199805052021.NAA03311@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The URL of the Forum is http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767 You can read it without registering, but to post you need to fill out a short registration form. Very little on the form is mandatory. --Brett At 01:55 PM 5/5/98 -0700, Gary Kline wrote: >According to Amancio Hasty: >> Curious, why can't you post such nice message to the Infoworld forum?? >> > > What? and get flamed!!? > > What's their URL? Brett? David? Anybody? > > gary > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 14:05:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09010 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:05:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08898 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:05:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10600; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:05:10 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA02053; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:05:10 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980505230504.61686@follo.net> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:05:04 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Brett Glass , Gary Kline Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates References: <199805052021.NAA03311@rah.star-gate.com> <199805052055.NAA21094@athena.tera.com> <199805052101.PAA25689@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199805052101.PAA25689@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, May 05, 1998 at 03:01:17PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 05, 1998 at 03:01:17PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > The URL of the Forum is > > http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767 > > You can read it without registering, but to post you need to fill > out a short registration form. Very little on the form is mandatory. ... but something that _is_ mandatory is State/District, which happens to not exist in many countries. They won't even accept a short answer. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 14:09:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10425 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:09:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10372; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:09:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07063; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:08:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA21160; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805052108.OAA21160@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-Reply-To: <19980505214927.34624@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "May 5, 98 09:49:27 pm" To: eivind@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, kline@tera.tera.com, dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Eivind Eklund: > On Tue, May 05, 1998 at 01:25:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 11:08 AM 5/5/98 -0700, Gary Kline wrote: > > > > > One reason we humans have survived these score millennia > > > is because cooperation precedes competition. Individual > > > effort sometimes yield brilliant results; cooperative, > > > maximum. Both operating systems would gain if features > > > from each were shared. > > > > > > Both the *BSD and *Linux OS's agree with the free software > > > paradigm; it's a matter of degree. > > > > One would certainly hope so! But tune in to that InfoWorld forum > > to see what's actually going on. Anyone who critiques the GPL > > is *immediately* branded a "Linux basher," a "zealot," or worse. > > Ditto anyone who points out areas in which FreeBSD has advantages > > over Linux. The rhetoric is *nasty*, guys. Oh, no doubt. We've had some nasty little spats ourselves. If there _is_ a way of combatting such bias ((short of getting an Uzi and moving these people down in hot blood)) it is to speak up with an informed reason. Sort of ``the BIG LIE'' in reverse. If, after hearing our side of things, the majority isn't swayed, well, too bad.... > > Sorry - I don't agree. In the forums, you _do_ tend to come over as a > zealot and Linux basher. (And claiming that I get this impression > because I'm a closet Linuxial won't get you anywhere ;-) > I'm sure that Brett can fight his own battles; but from knowing him as a fellow porter, he's fair and mellow. He's got something most lack: enthusiasm! gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 14:11:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11005 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:11:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10938 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:11:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25821; Tue, 5 May 1998 15:11:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805052111.PAA25821@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:10:54 -0600 To: Eivind Eklund , Gary Kline From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980505230504.61686@follo.net> References: <199805052101.PAA25689@lariat.lariat.org> <199805052021.NAA03311@rah.star-gate.com> <199805052055.NAA21094@athena.tera.com> <199805052101.PAA25689@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So, enter "pandemonium." That adequately describe MY state.... ;-) --Brett At 11:05 PM 5/5/98 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >On Tue, May 05, 1998 at 03:01:17PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >> The URL of the Forum is >> >> http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767 >> >> You can read it without registering, but to post you need to fill >> out a short registration form. Very little on the form is mandatory. > >... but something that _is_ mandatory is State/District, which >happens to not exist in many countries. They won't even accept a >short answer. > >Eivind. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 14:45:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19037 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:45:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19016; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:45:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: (from hasty@localhost) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03772; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:45:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:45:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Amancio Hasty Message-Id: <199805052145.OAA03772@rah.star-gate.com> To: brett@lariat.org, dg@root.com, eivind@yes.no, kline@tera.tera.com Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980505214927.34624@follo.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Eivind, It is a true exercise in patience in dealing with the "wild crazed linux zealots". My experience have shown me that once you brand "them" as zealots then things then to precipitate to a sanity level. We are dealing with a social/cultural phenomena with no scientific basis . Again, lets take this nice chat to the Infoworld forum . Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 18:38:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28050 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:38:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (root@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA27053; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id RAA07349; Tue, 5 May 1998 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Eivind Eklund cc: Greg Lehey , Nicole , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <19980504010604.28183@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just out of curiosity.. do we have anyone from *.microsoft.com getting our source or OS? -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. On Mon, 4 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: >On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:10AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 0:48:28 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >> > They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a >> > LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source >> > sometime. >> > >> > One example: They have to credit the University of California at >> > Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in >> > /usr/src/COPYRIGHT. >> >> Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? >> You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. > >Then we're dealing with license violation. I don't think GPLing >something will help you if you assume the license will be violated. > >Of course, the GPL is viral, and as a such might be more scary. A >neat hack might be to create a BSD-style license which goes viral if >violated :-) > >Eivind. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 19:29:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09319 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:29:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09311 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:29:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@taki.net) Received: from localhost (ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA28205 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:29:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cheddar.netmonger.net: ted owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 22:29:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Stein X-Sender: ted@cheddar.netmonger.net To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux to FreeBSD Migration Guide Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Fellow Advocates, On a suggestion I read in a newsgroup post, I have decided to write a Linux to FreeBSD Migration Guide, to do exactly as the name implies. If anyone has the necessary experience, please contact me. I'm trying to stick to the "group" mentality of the FreeBSD project. ;-) Ted Stein http://www.taki.net CGI/Backend ted@taki.net taki solutions Web Design & Hosting "What goes around usually gets dizzy and falls over." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 21:43:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03392 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03371; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05416; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:40:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805060440.VAA05416@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: Eivind Eklund , Greg Lehey , Nicole , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 17:56:17 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 21:40:11 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Just out of curiosity.. do we have anyone from *.microsoft.com >getting our source or OS? I know that we have microsoft people on-board so what? Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 21:44:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03567 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03549; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:44:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id VAA15919; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:44:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:44:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Amancio Hasty cc: Eivind Eklund , Greg Lehey , Nicole , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <199805060440.VAA05416@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> Just out of curiosity.. do we have anyone from *.microsoft.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>getting our source or OS? > >I know that we have microsoft people on-board so what? > > Amancio > > > Which board? -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 22:37:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10731 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:37:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (root@huron.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10639; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:36:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA13342; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 01:26:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id WAA10646 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 4 May 1998, Dag-Erling Coidan [iso-8859-1] Smørgrav wrote: > David Kelly writes: > > I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser > > source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same > > with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well, > > at least not much in IBM scale. > > You might be surprised. Yup, most people are. Many people who predict the downfall of unix cannot even list the number one vendor because it doesn't register on the technical horizon for most of us. Funny thing is that its competition does. Last I heard the network OS vendors were ranked as follows: 1. MS WinNT server 2. Novell Netware 3. SCO OpernServer 4. IBM OS/2 I forget whether the metric was dollars of sale or number of copies. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 22:49:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13501 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:49:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13490 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02561; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:49:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805060549.XAA02561@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 23:49:28 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Idea: "GPL Plus" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org All: While I was dealing with the "Linux zealots" on the InfoWorld forum, I realized that one of the problems was that some of the people there were ideologically bound to the GPL. I don't think the GPL is optimal because, unlike the Berkeley license, it doesn't allow commercial re-use. So, tonight, while mulling over what transpired, I had an idea. How about drafting a license called "GPL Plus," which is -- essentially -- the GPL but includes terms for commercial re-use? It actually wouldn't be that far, in effect, from the Berkeley-style license. But perhaps the notion that this license is LIKE the GPL, but adds something (the potential to stimulate the development of commercial products) would help to convince some of these folks that it would be an improvement. What do you think? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 5 23:17:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19545 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:17:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA19518 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:17:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA14726; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:16:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 01:16:36 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Gary Kline cc: ac199@hwcn.org, josh@quick.net, julian@whistle.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C-BASIC anyone? (only oldies need apply :-) In-Reply-To: <199805051752.KAA20105@athena.tera.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 May 1998, Gary Kline wrote: > > On Mon, 4 May 1998, Josh Gilliam wrote: > > > > No unless it's really improved lately, it isn't very useful. :) > > I once wrote my own QuickBasic ->C compiler ("qb3c"), but it's > > way too embarrassing an affair to mention it here. It does have > > a fairly good grammar for parsing QB code, though (only 3 > > shift/reduce conflicts, despite handling most QB constructs > > (subs, multi-dimensional arrays, user-defined types)). > > > Hmm. It would be interesting if there were a top-10 > programs in QB that were converted to C. Does anyone > outside of M$ honestly use BASIC? Never QBASIC. GW-BASIC was fun. But the best was good ol' IBM BASICA. 10 SCREEN 3 ooOOoo, yeah... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 6 00:29:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA29729 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:29:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29718 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:29:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06326; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:29:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805060729.AAA06326@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Idea: "GPL Plus" In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 23:49:28 MDT." <199805060549.XAA02561@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:29:28 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I rather you don't try to enlighten them too much so far it is okay to slam them around a little . Besides, most of the "wild eyed crazed linux fanatics" are just that and their sole function is to spread noise about linux. As long as the "wild eyed crazed linux fanatics" cling to GPL we have the upper hand and in the tug of war we can actually use them to draw interest to FreeBSD. Those are my 4.4 cents 8) Cheers, Amancio > All: > > While I was dealing with the "Linux zealots" on the InfoWorld forum, I > realized that one of the problems was that some of the people there were > ideologically bound to the GPL. I don't think the GPL is optimal because, > unlike the Berkeley license, it doesn't allow commercial re-use. So, > tonight, while mulling over what transpired, I had an idea. How about > drafting a license called "GPL Plus," which is -- essentially -- the GPL > but includes terms for commercial re-use? > > It actually wouldn't be that far, in effect, from the Berkeley-style > license. But perhaps the notion that this license is LIKE the GPL, but adds > something (the potential to stimulate the development of commercial > products) would help to convince some of these folks that it would be an > improvement. > > What do you think? > > --Brett Glass > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 6 01:04:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04617 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:04:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050n33.san.rr.com (@dt053nd2.san.rr.com [204.210.34.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA04597 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:04:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050n33.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA23148; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:04:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <35501994.FACE75A7@san.rr.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 01:04:36 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE-0502 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: Grendell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Opinions wanted References: <199805050556.WAA06944@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > I'm considering installing a linux distribution to compare with my > > freebsd (2.2.5 Release). For those of you running both freebsd and > > linux, which linux distribution would you recommend to compliment > > freebsd? Which linux distribution co-exists best with freebsd? > > > > This is NOT linux vs freebsd mail. I would just like to know what linux > > distribution freebsd users feel most comfortable with. > > > > Thanks. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > I don't feel comfortable with any linux distribution so far > I have tried slackware and redhat 5.0 . If someone can point me to a nice > linux distribution I would very much would like to hear about it . > Typically, I run FreeBSD however I have win98, win95, win nt 5.0 on > spread out on my two systems. My linux -using friends tell me that debian is the best linux for those who are knowledgeable about unix, red hat is the best for those who want to get a running start with minimal learning. I don't use linux myself at all so I'm just passing things on. :) Hope this helps, Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud designer and maintainer of the world's largest Internet *** Relay Chat server with 5,328 simultaneous connections. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 6 03:15:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA29872 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 03:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA29864 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 03:15:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yX1Eo-0006lx-00; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:15:46 +0200 Subject: Better education re GPL needed To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:15:46 +0200 (SAT) X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Johann Visagie Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just a sudden thought: Why do so many developers who are FreeBSD-friendly release code under the GPL? I realised that I had been noticing this lately while I was looking at the technical info pages of the by now well-known ftpsearch engine in Norway - they run their service on FreeBSD CURRENT, which means that they _probably_ also develop on FreeBSD, and yet their code is GPL. Might it not be a good idea to think up ways to educate developers in the free software community about the possible pitfalls of the GPL? -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 6 05:21:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19847 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 05:21:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19814 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 05:21:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03734; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:20:31 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA05544; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:20:30 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980506142029.36578@follo.net> Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:20:29 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Better education re GPL needed References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Johann Visagie on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:15:46PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:15:46PM +0200, Johann Visagie wrote: > > Just a sudden thought: Why do so many developers who are FreeBSD-friendly > release code under the GPL? I realised that I had been noticing this lately > while I was looking at the technical info pages of the by now well-known > ftpsearch engine in Norway - they run their service on FreeBSD CURRENT, > which means that they _probably_ also develop on FreeBSD, and yet their > code is GPL. > > Might it not be a good idea to think up ways to educate developers in the > free software community about the possible pitfalls of the GPL? I'd guess Tor knows the difference between GPL and BSDL fairly well - he's one of the FreeBSD developers. Unfortunately, GPL has a very, very large footing in Norway, up to and including a lot of the student-computer-clubs requiring (in the bylaws) the GPL on all code developed on their machines... Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 6 09:27:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24319 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:27:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA24294 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:26:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id JAA20722; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:26:50 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id JAA31340; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:25:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Idea: "GPL Plus" In-Reply-To: <199805060549.XAA02561@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: >All: > >While I was dealing with the "Linux zealots" on the InfoWorld forum, I >realized that one of the problems was that some of the people there were >ideologically bound to the GPL. I don't think the GPL is optimal because, >unlike the Berkeley license, it doesn't allow commercial re-use. So, >tonight, while mulling over what transpired, I had an idea. How about >drafting a license called "GPL Plus," which is -- essentially -- the GPL >but includes terms for commercial re-use? > >It actually wouldn't be that far, in effect, from the Berkeley-style >license. But perhaps the notion that this license is LIKE the GPL, but adds >something (the potential to stimulate the development of commercial >products) would help to convince some of these folks that it would be an >improvement. FWIW, Has anyone read the artistic license? It has some neat features. The GPL has wording in it that states that you "may not change this license". Anything that was GPLesque would have to _not_ have "GPL" in it title. I like the Berkely license. In this case Mr. Glass, it seems that you waiver slightly with respect to the ongoing issue regarding GPL zealots. (No insult intended. Just fleshing out the issues.) Why would we even want to write a license that gives GPL any credit by inclusion of "GPL" in the title "GPL Plus"? I have read the GPL a couple times but I am no lawyer. It seems to me that the primary GPL aim is to prevent people from making money off of other peoples volunteer work. If an hacker is worried about this let him use GPL. IN this respect (to address Mr. Glass' concluding statement) I do not think a GPL Plus would convince any GPL zealots of anything because GPL zealots use GPL _precisely_ because they don't want any one making money. (Rant) After reading FSF page I must say I see a bit of hippy communist lawyer turned hacker in their verbage. I remember the part of a post scarcity society. I don't buy this, therefore I don't really bite into the GPL. This is entirely personal. (Rant off) I don't think this is where the FreeBSD camp pitches its tent. I think GPL is restrictive. I think Berkeley is Free(dom). I don't see the need for change. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 6 09:43:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27308 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:43:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27274 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:43:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08867; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:43:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805061643.KAA08867@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:43:19 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Idea: "GPL Plus" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199805060549.XAA02561@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:25 AM 5/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >I like the Berkely license. In this case Mr. Glass, it seems that you >waiver slightly with respect to the ongoing issue regarding GPL zealots. >(No insult intended. Just fleshing out the issues.) Why would we even want >to write a license that gives GPL any credit by inclusion of "GPL" in the >title "GPL Plus"? Marketing. People who do not even know what the GPL *says* routinely tout it as The One True Way to stimulate the production of free software! They're convinced that brilliant genius Richard Stallman crafted The Holy Writ, and So Mote It Be forevermore. The notion that this is explicitly intended to be an an improvement could win over some of these people, whereas that "California license" -- which they're used to thinking of as coming from an opposing camp -- wouldn't. As for GPL: Unless it's a trademark, one can use it. Come to think of it, even if it *is* a trademark, you may be able to say that the license is "downward compatible" with the GPL. ;-) >I have read the GPL a couple times but I am no lawyer. It seems to me that >the primary GPL aim is to prevent people from making money off of other >peoples volunteer work. If an hacker is worried about this let him use >GPL. The primary aim goes beyond this: it's to make the GPL "virus-like" and to undermine the development of commercial software. Have you ever talked to Richard Stallman? His goals are pretty darn explicit. (No, EMPHATIC would be a better word. ;-) >IN this respect (to address Mr. Glass' concluding statement) I do not >think a GPL Plus would convince any GPL zealots of anything because GPL >zealots use GPL _precisely_ because they don't want any one making money. > >(Rant) After reading FSF page I must say I see a bit of hippy communist >lawyer turned hacker in their verbage. I remember the part of a post >scarcity society. I don't buy this, therefore I don't really bite into the >GPL. This is entirely personal. (Rant off) > >I don't think this is where the FreeBSD camp pitches its tent. I think GPL >is restrictive. I think Berkeley is Free(dom). I don't see the need for >change. Again, not so much change as better marketing.... And raising awareness of what the GPL says and that there's a choice. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 6 11:49:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21354 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:49:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21289 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:48:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA10860; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:48:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23618; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805061848.LAA23618@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: Idea: "GPL Plus" In-Reply-To: <199805061643.KAA08867@lariat.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "May 6, 98 10:43:19 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Brett Glass: > At 09:25 AM 5/6/98 -0700, you wrote: > [[ ... ]] > > Again, not so much change as better marketing.... And raising awareness of > what the GPL says and that there's a choice. > How about your first draft of the rev'd GNU license? Sounds like a good idea, and I'd like to see what you have in mind. BTW, as far as I know, a piece of software can bear both or either the CopyLeft and any other copyright. This would probably cause the software to divide into more than one path, but this would not necessarily be bad. gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 6 12:24:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28344 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:24:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28289 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:24:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (root@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id MAA20712; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:24:45 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id MAA09218; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:23:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Brett Glass cc: "Jason C. Wells" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Idea: "GPL Plus" In-Reply-To: <199805061643.KAA08867@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 6 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: >At 09:25 AM 5/6/98 -0700, Jason Wells wrote: > >>(No insult intended. Just fleshing out the issues.) Why would we even want >>to write a license that gives GPL any credit by inclusion of "GPL" in the >>title "GPL Plus"? > >Marketing. People who do not even know what the GPL *says* routinely tout >it as The One True Way to stimulate the production of free software! They're >convinced that brilliant genius Richard Stallman crafted The Holy Writ, and >So Mote It Be forevermore. The notion that this is explicitly intended to >be an an improvement could win over some of these people, whereas that >"California license" -- which they're used to thinking of as coming from >an opposing camp -- wouldn't. To paraphrase: Use the name recognition of GPL to win over GPL zealots to a "Berkelyized" "GPL Plus" in the interest of making more people support a higher degree of freedom. Is this correct? This is an admirable aim. Name recognition is certainly a powerful thing. You make a point about people who know only the name GPL and do not know the content thereof. These people who do not know GPL well might be a target for such a tactic. The people who do know GPL well; they will spot this tactic immediately. Their anti-commercial bent will immediately go to work to protect said "Holy Writ" from corruption. You need proof? Go tell a student of the Bible that Paul did not write Hebrews! (Religous analogs are so pertinent :) ) Trying to appear as to not be in the enemy "California" camp is very tricky ruse. It may have some merit against the unwary. I think the wary will be allover this ruse like stink on do-do. That is why they can be called zealots. I think the best way to make people aware of alternatives to GPL is to continue to plug the Berkeley License. Also, we may plug the Artistic License for the soul purpose of supporting alternatives. Let's not try to beat the zealots in their home territory. Let's win support at the fringes where a strong zeal has not yet developed. I am one of those fringe people. I became a free(dom) software supporter within the last two years. Because of my experience with FreeBSD, I am more in support of the Berkeley license. My point in telling all of you this is that the Berkeley/FreeBSD way can win the support of individuals even in the face of strong GPL zeal. Perhaps a Berkeley Vs. GPL comparo _on a web page_ (not a NG) with no possibility of zealous reprisal would be in order to advance the less restrictive Berkeley license. (Guess what I am searching for on the net after I am done here.) Don't get into a debate. Just publish a supporting opinion for Berkeley licensing. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 6 15:09:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00582 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6477.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00543 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:08:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA01185; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:56:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:56:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Anatoly Vorobey cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/ijb - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <19980505151801.58541@techunix.technion.ac.il> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 May 1998, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > It isn't. Ads are ugly, I'm annoyed and fatigued by them. They presume > viewer's intelligence to be on the level of a toddler, and they are > invariably crappy as art. In general, advertisements are one of the most > ugly and despisable features of our modern world (and yes, I know ^^^^^^^^^^ > they're necessary in our world, please spare me yet another silly ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes! You have succinctly summed my whole argument! > 'meet the world' slogan). As a minor example, ads on TV (along with > most of the TV programs themselves) are one of the major causes of > shortening attention span of kids and teenagers, and, as a consequence, > reduced intelligence. Objection, but that's a different argument. There is _some_ truth to what I quoted, anyways. > I'm not saying that digital matters aren't legally binding, but only > that the law kicks in only when you consider modification AND > redistribution. As you said yourself, reverse-engineering doesn't apply, Ya, like just the same way I'm allowed to be in possession of whatever images I want, provided I don't distribute them. (Although it's typically the distributors who get in trouble, but that's cause they're more visible :). [rehash of you `medium doesn't force users to pay' argument deleted --- this gets addressed a little below, and I'd simply be rehashing the same reply because nothing really new has been said. Besides that, it's not 100% consistent with the below paragraph.] > If there's a link to an informative file on some page and next to > a link it's written: "Please don't click here unless you already > paid me for the subscription to this info [subcr details]. I don't > have technical means to implement proper protection of this > valuable info, so I ask you personally not to use it unless you > pay for it", I will probably not click on the link and won't go Consider Eivend the little link saying "Please don't click here unless you are going to pay me for the info." Can you suggest "technical" means to ensure payment? Changing the type of payment is not an answer (once again, can you say "information underclass" (there is, incidentally a danger here in that future advertisers will target their audience so carefully that people without financial means don't get to see the ads, but this future danger is preferable to a definite current danger)). > it's you and Eivind who are doing holier-than-thou act and accuse > ijb users of stealing revenue of the site. What's wrong with ijb? > The simple fact remains that a lot of people who are browsing with > images turned off are pirates and thieves according to yours > and Eivind's ethical model, which makes you, and not me, extremists. And what's wrong with turning off images? Look, from here on, I would simply be repeating myself. Filtering ads is different from reading information in a format of your choice. If you can't reasonably view the ads, you can't reasonably view them. That's the advertisers' fault (even though it may hurt you eventually, there's not too much you can do about it). > it? What if someone watches the same sitcom everyday and > _always_ doesn't watch the commercial because he dislikes them I typically change the radio station when ads are playing. It's all in the statistics. Every so often, I don't. > this particular site? The net effect for "content producers" > is absolutely the same! You will deny it saying that in TV "Every person in the world tosses 5000 coins every day. When all of them land heads, that particular tosser commits suicide. I never die. The net effect is absolutely the same as not tossing coins!" > Here's an even better example for you: suppose I modify ijb so > that it'll always _load_ the ad, but will never pass it to my > browser (ijb functions as a proxy). In this case, it's > absolutely identical to the TV case outlined above. Will you > say I'm behaving absolutely fairly? No, you would not be behaving fairly. I don't understand why you think I should believe you would be behaving fairly. I don't think you're taking the time to understand my argument. > Neither have I, I have installed device which helps me avoid > downloading what I don't want to see. Which happens to be ads, yes. Are you installing a device to remove ads are not? I avoid downloads I don't want, too. I don't remove ads. > _That_ is really interesting. I don't want to specifically pull > of the Web site files that annoy me and don't interest me. THAT is > a 'anarchistic religious idea'? I refer to your argument that if you can get away with stealing property, then it is the fault of the (previous) owner if you steal it (because s/he didn't use a medium that prevented you from stealing it), not your fault. > In the real world of the living, how do you think television > continues to exist in spite of the fact (explained to you previously) > that there exist devices which automatically switch off ads on > your TV? Those devices aren't software, which has a zero marginal cost. The usability of these devices is questionable to me (what am I supposed to watch on TV while the commercials are being shown?). If those devices were common, they'd probably be made illegal. [re: ad-removal facility] > they did know. Even if such a facility becomes a part of a major browser, > the fact remains that most of the people using Web don't ever get to > the 'Preferences' dialog of their browser, let alone 'Advanced > Preferences'. So I don't see any great hazard to advertisement model > of the Web, however much I dislike it. First of all, you're not just hurting information providers, you're hurting yourself. Besides that, I don't want the world you envision, where most people never even see the `Preferences'. > Oh my. As if you don't pay for information right now, in many ways > all the time. Or maybe it's time for _you_ to bring up the slogan > "information wants to be free"? ;) There are some ways of paying for information which are more affordable than others. At an individual level, obviously, but at the social level, too. If the only way of paying for information was to cut-off your right hand, this would obviously be socially harmful. I consider the development of an information underclass to be socially harmful. > > > What you fail to understand is that when your friend puts an HTML file > > > in a free-for-taking medium - the Web - he loses the ability > > > and justification, legal or moral, to demand payment for DLing this > > > > Anatoly, meet the real world. World, Anatoly. The Web is not > > the domain of a small commune of hackers. Hardly ever was, > > actually. > > That was a fine piece of rhetorics, although I must admit I failed > to understand its relevance. Did I ever say or simply that the Web If said information provider (and it is Eivend who knows such people, I know none personally) loses his ability to receive payment, that is bad. Justify it to hell on legal or moral grounds, if you want, but it's just bad. Any justification on moral grounds must be first prove that it's "good", not "bad". I decline to get into a complicated legal argument, on the basis that neither of us (to the best of my knowledge) are qualified for that. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 6 18:07:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03404 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 18:07:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cybertouch.org (cybertouch.org [209.47.145.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03372 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 18:07:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from beef@cybertouch.org) Received: from localhost (beef@localhost) by cybertouch.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA01270; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:05:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from beef@cybertouch.org) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:05:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Lanny Baron To: jack cc: drifter@stratos.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: device busy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998, jack wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 1998 drifter@stratos.net wrote: > > > Just as a note, I tried umount /usr a couple days ago when I was > > backing up some file systems. I was in single user mode. It would not > > allow me to, saying the device was busy. So I remounted /usr, and did > > an lsof, and found no files using /usr except lsof and more, which the > > output > > of lsof was being piped to. > > This happened to me one other time. Does anyone have any ideas? > > What was your working directory at the time? > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst > jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. > Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. > PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD > enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > I was on /cdrom and did umount /cdrom ....didn't work...got device busy. Then I left /cdrom and went to somewhere else (i don't think it matters so long as you are not in the directory you wish to umount) and did umount -f /cdrom and presto it worked! Later, * Lanny Baron * | Have you had your BEEF today? | | http://www.tht.net/~beef | | * | Want a great operating system? | | try FreeBSD, it's remarkable! | * http://www.FreeBSD.org * &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 7 11:52:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09601 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:52:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08952 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:50:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from float@interport.net) From: float@interport.net Received: from interport.net (float@park.nfs.interport.net [205.161.144.2]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19445 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 14:50:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from float@localhost) by interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01742 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 7 May 1998 14:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805071850.OAA01742@interport.net> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: (fwd) Re: Linux flame wars not helpful (was Re: win95 vs nt4 workstation) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Remember those discussions recently about renaming FreeBSD? I think we have a winning candidate below. ;-) Path: news.interport.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.150.160.22!newsfeed.wli.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Linux flame wars not helpful (was Re: win95 vs nt4 workstation) On Tue, 05 May 1998 17:20:32 GMT, geoffg@istar.ca (Geoff Glave) wrote: > >As interesting as these Linux / NT flame wars are, does anyone else have any >answers to my original question about the differences between '95 and 'NT? > >I'm only really interested in those two OSes, and why NT is better, not linux, >unix, FreeSomethingOrOther, win3.x, dos, MacOSAnything, java or TRS-80Dos, cp/m ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >commodore 64 sprites, or whatever the heck ran on an Altair. These are from Microsoft. They're sort of helpful. http://www.microsoft.com/ntworkstation/info/techdiff.htm http://www.microsoft.com/win32dev/guidelns/apidiffs.htm Sorry for turning your question into a flame war. -- Ben To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 7 12:01:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11036 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 12:01:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terror.hungry.com (fn@terror.hungry.com [199.181.107.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10960 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 12:00:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fn@Hungry.COM) Received: (from fn@localhost) by terror.hungry.com (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id MAA07487; Thu, 7 May 1998 12:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805071900.MAA07487@terror.hungry.com> From: Faried Nawaz To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: OS Wars to Cure Cystic Fibrosis Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Network/5601/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 7 22:24:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22973 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nyef.res.cmu.edu (qmailr@NYEF.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.88.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA22960 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:24:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from inf@nyef.res.cmu.edu) Received: (qmail 15632 invoked by uid 1000); 8 May 1998 05:24:05 -0000 Message-ID: <19980508012405.01221@nyef.res.cmu.edu> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 01:24:05 -0400 From: Marca Registrada To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Corel's proposed support for linux Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A recent article posted on SlashDot.org (for anyone who doesn't know, a very good 'geek' news source.. although more than heavilly slanted towards Linux), Corel announced support for Linux, basically meaning ports of all their applications to the Linux platform. If FreeBSD is to benefit by this, we should try to be also directly supported rather than having to rely on our linux emulation. These apps are what Unix is lacking today and what may bring it to the desktop and more businesses. I really hope FreeBSD will be there in it's own right, and it is almost necessary to move out of the notion of "Great server, so-so workstation". So, I'm hoping that we either organize or indivualy email Corel noting the support we would have for their ports to BSD. Not sure if they would want a flood from the masses or a more organized petition, so I throw it to you. -- - All we hear is internet gaagaa, internet googoo, internet gaagaa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 04:56:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA08707 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 04:56:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA08699 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 04:56:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA11666; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:55:56 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Tony Overfield Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISA-PnP w\o BIOS support? Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:58:22 GMT Message-ID: <3552efbc.258248161@mail.cetlink.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980507095816.00689420@bugs.us.dell.com> <199805070251.TAA00511@antipodes.cdrom.com> <3.0.3.32.19980508005947.006ba3b4@bugs.us.dell.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980508005947.006ba3b4@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id EAA08700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 08 May 1998 00:59:47 -0500, Tony Overfield wrote: >I don't mean to start a religious war. >This harsh opinion of the older systems is justified, in my mind, >because the "state of the art PC" (please excuse the apparent >oxymoron) is quite simply far more powerful than any "perfectly good >486 box." I have 486 DX4-100's running at 50MHz x 2 which do a full make world (-DCLOBBER -DNOGAMES) in 4.5 hours. Many pentiums, with the PnP BIOS you cherish, don't go much faster than that. So I believe that your harsh opinion of older systems is justified ONLY in your mind. You're a victim of marketing which brainwashes people to believe they must have the latest gadget, whatever it is. Computer manufacturers won't do well in business unless people throw out their hardware every three years and spend more money on new stuff. Is that a "dell" email address I see you posting from? Hmmmm.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 08:55:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11850 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:55:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11717 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from skejdbrimir.ifi.uio.no (skejdbrimir.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.2]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with SMTP id RAA25123; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:54:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (dag-erli@localhost) by skejdbrimir.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:54:27 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Cc: Tony Overfield , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISA-PnP w\o BIOS support? References: <3.0.3.32.19980507095816.00689420@bugs.us.dell.com> <199805070251.TAA00511@antipodes.cdrom.com> <3.0.3.32.19980508005947.006ba3b4@bugs.us.dell.com> <3552efbc.258248161@mail.cetlink.net> Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse / KRST / PUMS / YASMW X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 08 May 1998 17:54:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: jak@cetlink.net's message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 11:58:22 GMT" Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id IAA11732 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) writes: > On Fri, 08 May 1998 00:59:47 -0500, Tony Overfield > wrote: > > This harsh opinion of the older systems is justified, in my mind, > > because the "state of the art PC" (please excuse the apparent > > oxymoron) is quite simply far more powerful than any "perfectly good > > 486 box." > I have 486 DX4-100's running at 50MHz x 2 which do a full make world > (-DCLOBBER -DNOGAMES) in 4.5 hours. Many pentiums, with the PnP BIOS > you cherish, don't go much faster than that. So I believe that your > harsh opinion of older systems is justified ONLY in your mind. Allow me to add that it has {long|always} been a point of honor for the "FreeBSD crowd" that we can run on practically any PC, from the old 386 gathering dust on my shelf¹ to the shiny new 400 MHz PII box Steinar told us about which builds world in 46 minutes. Tony, you might be surprised to find out just how useful a rusty old 386 can be if you stick a NIC in it and boot PicoBSD from a floppy. Add a second NIC and you have a full-featured IP firewall. It may not have horsepower for much more than 10 Mbps, but that's all that's needed. ¹ well, it's just a motherboard, but fully functional AFAIK :) -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 09:06:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13486 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:06:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13395 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:05:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01620; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:05:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805081605.JAA01620@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Marca Registrada cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Corel's proposed support for linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 01:24:05 EDT." <19980508012405.01221@nyef.res.cmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 09:05:52 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone have a contact , phone, fax or whatever so we can send our requests for FreeBSD support? Tnks, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 09:31:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17306 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:31:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com (bugs.us.dell.com [143.166.169.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA17261 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:31:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tony@dell.com) Received: from ant (ant.us.dell.com [143.166.12.34]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA11556; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:29:41 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980508112359.006ef388@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:23:59 -0500 To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ), jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: ISA-PnP w\o BIOS support? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19980507095816.00689420@bugs.us.dell.com> <199805070251.TAA00511@antipodes.cdrom.com> <3.0.3.32.19980508005947.006ba3b4@bugs.us.dell.com> <3552efbc.258248161@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA17279 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:54 PM 5/8/98 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: >Allow me to add that it has {long|always} been a point of honor for >the "FreeBSD crowd" that we can run on practically any PC, from the >old 386 gathering dust on my shelf¹ to the shiny new 400 MHz PII box >Steinar told us about which builds world in 46 minutes. True enough. I have no disagreement with this. If you really cared about such things, you'd be wanting to have ISA-PnP supported, since there is a benefit and no drawback to doing so. >Tony, you might be surprised to find out just how useful a rusty old >386 can be if you stick a NIC in it and boot PicoBSD from a floppy. >Add a second NIC and you have a full-featured IP firewall. It may not >have horsepower for much more than 10 Mbps, but that's all that's >needed. Not me. I also know how to put uncompetitive systems to good use. I have a NetWare386 server running on a 386-16, and *BSD running with Pentium-66 and Pentium-90 systems. However, I wouldn't dare claim that those systems are comparable to modern systems. In my opinion, they are obsolete. They still work and can perform some useful functions, so perhaps I should use the words "old and slow" instead of obsolete. Maybe I've got a language problem here. I'm using obsolete to indicate "uncompetitively slow" to the point that the average user would not use it. That doesn't mean, as obsolete normally does, that there is NO USE for such systems. Since you guys are so picky, I think I'll word things more carefully next time. - Tony To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 09:33:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17573 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:33:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA17536 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:32:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org id 0yXq4e-0000aQ-00; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:32:40 +0100 Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:32:42 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PicoBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! People keep mentioning PicoBSD. I assume that this is a small version of FreeBSD, rather than an alternative like NetBSD. Is it a version of FreeBSD that runs off a floppy? Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 09:35:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17995 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:35:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com (bugs.us.dell.com [143.166.169.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA17959 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:35:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tony@dell.com) Received: from ant (ant.us.dell.com [143.166.12.34]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA11553; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:29:40 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980508112936.0397d2e0@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:29:36 -0500 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: ISA-PnP w\o BIOS support? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3552efbc.258248161@mail.cetlink.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980508005947.006ba3b4@bugs.us.dell.com> <3.0.3.32.19980507095816.00689420@bugs.us.dell.com> <199805070251.TAA00511@antipodes.cdrom.com> <3.0.3.32.19980508005947.006ba3b4@bugs.us.dell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:58 AM 5/8/98 GMT, John Kelly wrote: >I have 486 DX4-100's running at 50MHz x 2 which do a full make world >(-DCLOBBER -DNOGAMES) in 4.5 hours. Many pentiums, with the PnP BIOS >you cherish, don't go much faster than that. So I believe that your >harsh opinion of older systems is justified ONLY in your mind. > >You're a victim of marketing which brainwashes people to believe they >must have the latest gadget, whatever it is. No, I'm not brainwashed. The newer systems "really are" faster and better. This seems to matter for most people. I think it's hard to buy a new system that isn't at least twice as fast as your DX4-100/50 systems. The most popular systems are about four times faster. >Computer manufacturers >won't do well in business unless people throw out their hardware every >three years and spend more money on new stuff. Nobody wants to turn away 486 and Pentium customers, but you can't sell those things if nobody wants to buy them. Some other large manufacturers are only recently realizing this. >Is that a "dell" email >address I see you posting from? Hmmmm.... I happen to lurk on -hackers to offer occassional technical assistance with various PC architecture issues and arcana, which is where my particular expertise is. I do this as a sort of hobby. There is no official knowledge or backing to this. I'm here personally and not officially. - Tony To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 10:08:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23904 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:08:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23888 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:08:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id KAA29976; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:08:18 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id KAA22486; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:06:47 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Ben Cohen cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PicoBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 8 May 1998, Ben Cohen wrote: >Hi! > >People keep mentioning PicoBSD. >I assume that this is a small version of FreeBSD, rather than an >alternative like NetBSD. > >Is it a version of FreeBSD that runs off a floppy? Yes it is. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 11:14:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06410 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:14:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06375 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:14:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22645; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:13:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA29111; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805081813.LAA29111@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: ISA-PnP w\o BIOS support? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980508112359.006ef388@bugs.us.dell.com> from Tony Overfield at "May 8, 98 11:23:59 am" To: tony@dell.com (Tony Overfield) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Cc: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no, jak@cetlink.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Tony Overfield: [[ ... ]] > Maybe I've got a language problem here. I'm using obsolete to indicate > "uncompetitively slow" to the point that the average user would not use > it. That doesn't mean, as obsolete normally does, that there is NO USE > for such systems. Since you guys are so picky, I think I'll word things > more carefully next time. > > - > Tony > One thing that most BSD'ers share, I think, is that we are cheap---or perhaps `thrifty' is more appropriate. I ran my first 286 UNIX for 5 years; my second 386 SVR4 box for 5 years; and am going on 3 years with my P90. (My 6x86 is an upgrade of the 386. ) I don't claim that it's a virtue to cheat Intel out of even more billions; just unnecessary. With solid and stable software like FreeBSD, you can squeeze extra years out of ancient hardware. gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 11:56:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13879 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:56:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA13857 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:56:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from gnipahellir.ifi.uio.no (2602@gnipahellir.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.86]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id UAA10995; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:55:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by gnipahellir.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:55:55 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Gary Kline Cc: tony@dell.com (Tony Overfield), jak@cetlink.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISA-PnP w\o BIOS support? References: <199805081813.LAA29111@athena.tera.com> Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse / KRST / PUMS / YASMW X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 08 May 1998 20:55:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: Gary Kline's message of "Fri, 8 May 1998 11:13:48 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary Kline writes: > One thing that most BSD'ers share, I think, is that we are > cheap---or perhaps `thrifty' is more appropriate. I ran my > first 286 UNIX for 5 years; my second 386 SVR4 box for 5 > years; and am going on 3 years with my P90. (My 6x86 is an > upgrade of the 386. ) Umm, I'm Norwegian, so by definition I'm a heat-seeker. I haven't been able to afford a new motherboard or processor for some time, but that's because I've indulged myself with cabinets (changed twice since my last motherboard change), disks, a CD-ROM and a streamer :) -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 12:14:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17677 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 12:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17668 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 12:14:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from gnipahellir.ifi.uio.no (2602@gnipahellir.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.86]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id VAA12607; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:14:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by gnipahellir.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:14:11 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Ben Cohen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PicoBSD References: Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse / KRST / PUMS / YASMW X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 08 May 1998 21:14:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells"'s message of "Fri, 8 May 1998 10:06:47 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 30 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > On Fri, 8 May 1998, Ben Cohen wrote: > > People keep mentioning PicoBSD. > > I assume that this is a small version of FreeBSD, rather than an > > alternative like NetBSD. > > > > Is it a version of FreeBSD that runs off a floppy? > Yes it is. Aw c'mon, Jason, you can do better than this... :) To quote the PicoBSD page (), PicoBSD is a one-floppy version of FreeBSD 3.0-current, which in its different variations allows you to have secure dialup access, small diskless router or even a dial-in server. And all this on only one standard 1.44MB floppy - no need to sacrifice over 100MB of your precious HDD space. In other words, you can build a floppy with a kernel and all the required binaries and configuration files to e.g. run a processor server or a firewall on a diskless computer. Actually, there's no reason why you couldn't use PicoBSD on a a computer *with* a disk - set up a 2 MB slice for the system and use the rest of the disk for swap. Great if you need lots of horsepower and RAM but very little disk I/O: RC5/DES/RSA/whatever cracking, "industrial-grade" raytracing, you name it. -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 12:34:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21384 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 12:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21212 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 12:34:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22692; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:33:28 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Tony Overfield Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISA-PnP w\o BIOS support? Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 19:35:54 GMT Message-ID: <3553584e.285022381@mail.cetlink.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980508005947.006ba3b4@bugs.us.dell.com> <3.0.3.32.19980507095816.00689420@bugs.us.dell.com> <199805070251.TAA00511@antipodes.cdrom.com> <3.0.3.32.19980508005947.006ba3b4@bugs.us.dell.com> <3.0.3.32.19980508112936.0397d2e0@bugs.us.dell.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980508112936.0397d2e0@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id MAA21272 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 08 May 1998 11:29:36 -0500, Tony Overfield wrote: >No, I'm not brainwashed. The newer systems "really are" faster and >better. This seems to matter for most people. "Better" is subjective. Many people throw money away needlessly. Otherwise Bill Gates would never have succeeded. >I think it's hard to buy a new system that isn't at least twice as >fast as your DX4-100/50 systems. True, but it costs more than twice as much. I can build a 486 so cheap that my price/performance ratio is better. >Nobody wants to turn away 486 and Pentium customers, but you can't >sell those things if nobody wants to buy them. That's because Dell is selling to a market where nobody wants to slog thru Microsoft bloatware on a 486. But FreeBSD runs just fine on the same 486. The unspoken conspiracy between Microsoft, Intel, and the manufacturers like Dell has cost consumers and corporations billions of dollars while adding very little, if any, productivity gain to the economy. I purchased Quicken 98 Home and Business because they claimed it will let you can manage personal and business finances all from the same checkbook. What a sorry joke that was! I returned it for a refund, replacing it with a $60 adding machine and a green ledger pad. And now I've done my bookkeeping in less time than I spent fooling around with Quicken trying to make it fit my needs. New computers and software are not, by consequence of their existence, "better." In fact, there's so much hardware and software garbage on the market it's a wonder the world economy hasn't collapsed entirely. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 14:22:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14902 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:22:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com (bugs.us.dell.com [143.166.169.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA14811 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:22:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tony@dell.com) Received: from moth (moth.us.dell.com [143.166.169.152]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA11887; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:20:48 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980508162045.013bfd1c@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:20:45 -0500 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: ISA-PnP w\o BIOS support? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3553584e.285022381@mail.cetlink.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980508112936.0397d2e0@bugs.us.dell.com> <3.0.3.32.19980508005947.006ba3b4@bugs.us.dell.com> <3.0.3.32.19980507095816.00689420@bugs.us.dell.com> <199805070251.TAA00511@antipodes.cdrom.com> <3.0.3.32.19980508005947.006ba3b4@bugs.us.dell.com> <3.0.3.32.19980508112936.0397d2e0@bugs.us.dell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:35 PM 5/8/98 GMT, John Kelly wrote: >In fact, there's so much hardware and software garbage on >the market it's a wonder the world economy hasn't collapsed entirely. You seem to have an axe to grind. I learned long ago to avoid those. Good luck. I hope your theories are wrong. - Tony To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 14:22:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14977 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:22:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14881 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:22:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id OAA22400; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:22:18 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id OAA09844; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:20:47 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PicoBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA14893 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 May 1998, Dag-Erling Coidan [iso-8859-1] Smørgrav wrote: >Aw c'mon, Jason, you can do better than this... :) Actually I could not. My answer included _all_ of my knowledge of PicoBSD. :) Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 14:57:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22710 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:57:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net (pm3-5-46.stratos.net [207.86.133.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22632 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:56:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) From: drifter@stratos.net Received: from stratos.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00455 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Any one still use UUCP? Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:55:15 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ( I'm not sure this belongs in -questions, so I thought -chat would be appropriate. If not, I apologize. ) Just out of curiosity, I know that FreeBSD (and UNIX) have a series of "UUCP" commands that transfer files and even run programs remotely over phone lines _not_ using the internet. I got kind of curious about UUCP and am doing some light reading of old AT&T documents about it. I got the impression that UUCP was really the only way to go in the dark ages before the Internet was as wide-spread as it is today. I probably got the wrong impression, but I am wondering if UUCP is an old hold-over from earlier times whose days are numbered or if it is still in wide use today -- and if so, why? I'm not so sure I want to splurge for ORA UUCP right now, since I don't think I'd be doing a lot with it any way. (I don't think there are "public" UUCP cites to experiment with :) ) So, is UUCP a dying art? Is it that some places just don't have access to the Internet or an Ethernet, but they can arrange for UUCP? Or is there some advantage to UUCP that I am not aware about? Just curious... -Drifter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 15:18:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26133 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:18:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26060 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:17:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25075; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:17:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805082217.QAA25075@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:09:12 -0600 To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ), "Jason C. Wells" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PicoBSD Cc: Ben Cohen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <"Jason C. Wells"'s message of "Fri, 8 May 1998 10:06:47 +0000 (GMT)"> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA26067 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:14 PM 5/8/98 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: >To quote the PicoBSD page (), >PicoBSD is a one-floppy version of FreeBSD 3.0-current, which in its >different variations allows you to have secure dialup access, small >diskless router or even a dial-in server. And all this on only one >standard 1.44MB floppy - no need to sacrifice over 100MB of your >precious HDD space. I noticed that it didn't use gzipped binaries. Why? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 16:30:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10286 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA10225 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:29:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id QAA24462; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:29:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 16:29:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: drifter@stratos.net cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any one still use UUCP? In-Reply-To: <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yup, -chat is perfect place for this. As far as north America: UUCP is almost dead. Yet, in some other parts of the world where Internet is not yet fully developed, UUCP is still in wide use. I know for sure that it is used in Russia since data lines are very low quality and are also scarce. Hence it is very important to continue shipping uucp with Unix because *a lot* of people in other parts of the world rely on it. If you will be doing most of the admin work in the US, you will most likely never even hear word UUCP. *grin* -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. On Fri, 8 May 1998 drifter@stratos.net wrote: > >( I'm not sure this belongs in -questions, so I thought -chat would be > appropriate. If not, I apologize. ) > > Just out of curiosity, I know that FreeBSD (and UNIX) have a >series of "UUCP" commands that transfer files and even run programs >remotely over phone lines _not_ using the internet. > I got kind of curious about UUCP and am doing some light reading of >old AT&T documents about it. I got the impression that UUCP was really the >only way to go in the dark ages before the Internet was as wide-spread >as it is today. I probably got the wrong impression, but I am wondering >if UUCP is an old hold-over from earlier times whose days are numbered >or if it is still in wide use today -- and if so, why? > I'm not so sure I want to splurge for ORA UUCP right now, since >I don't think I'd be doing a lot with it any way. (I don't think there >are "public" UUCP cites to experiment with :) ) > So, is UUCP a dying art? Is it that some places just don't have >access to the Internet or an Ethernet, but they can arrange for UUCP? >Or is there some advantage to UUCP that I am not aware about? > > Just curious... > > -Drifter > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 16:40:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11986 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:40:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA11940 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:39:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA29694; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:39:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA00767; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805082339.QAA00767@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: Any one still use UUCP? In-Reply-To: <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net> from "drifter@stratos.net" at "May 8, 98 05:55:15 pm" To: drifter@stratos.net Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 16:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to drifter@stratos.net: > > ( I'm not sure this belongs in -questions, so I thought -chat would be > appropriate. If not, I apologize. ) > > Just out of curiosity, I know that FreeBSD (and UNIX) have a > series of "UUCP" commands that transfer files and even run programs > remotely over phone lines _not_ using the internet. > I got kind of curious about UUCP and am doing some light reading of > old AT&T documents about it. I got the impression that UUCP was really the > only way to go in the dark ages before the Internet was as wide-spread > as it is today. I probably got the wrong impression, but I am wondering > if UUCP is an old hold-over from earlier times whose days are numbered > or if it is still in wide use today -- and if so, why? > I'm not so sure I want to splurge for ORA UUCP right now, since > I don't think I'd be doing a lot with it any way. (I don't think there > are "public" UUCP cites to experiment with :) ) > So, is UUCP a dying art? Is it that some places just don't have > access to the Internet or an Ethernet, but they can arrange for UUCP? > Or is there some advantage to UUCP that I am not aware about? You probably should copy -questions with this, but to answer your question as far as I can, yes, people are still using uucp. I've used it for more than a dozen years and still would if the sysadmins at work would set it back up. (I have sendmail set up for IP over UUCP.) As telecommunication links get cheaper, things-uucp will probably go extinct in another decade. Sooner here in the States. Not everyone has a dedicated dial-up; or has ppp//slip through an ISP. How many people are still using uucp: dunno. gary > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 17:23:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20168 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20096 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:22:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rssh@cam.grad.kiev.ua) Received: from localhost (rssh@localhost) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA16701; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:21:06 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 03:21:05 +0300 (EEST) From: Ruslan Shevchenko To: drifter@stratos.net cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any one still use UUCP? In-Reply-To: <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 8 May 1998 drifter@stratos.net wrote: > > ( I'm not sure this belongs in -questions, so I thought -chat would be > appropriate. If not, I apologize. ) > > Just out of curiosity, I know that FreeBSD (and UNIX) have a > series of "UUCP" commands that transfer files and even run programs > remotely over phone lines _not_ using the internet. > I got kind of curious about UUCP and am doing some light reading of > old AT&T documents about it. I got the impression that UUCP was really the > only way to go in the dark ages before the Internet was as wide-spread > as it is today. I probably got the wrong impression, but I am wondering > if UUCP is an old hold-over from earlier times whose days are numbered > or if it is still in wide use today -- and if so, why? > I'm not so sure I want to splurge for ORA UUCP right now, since > I don't think I'd be doing a lot with it any way. (I don't think there > are "public" UUCP cites to experiment with :) ) > So, is UUCP a dying art? Is it that some places just don't have > access to the Internet or an Ethernet, but they can arrange for UUCP? > Or is there some advantage to UUCP that I am not aware about? > UUCP is whidly used in ex-USSR. > Just curious... > > -Drifter > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 20:12:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12879 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cynix.ecn.purdue.edu (cynix.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.198.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12871 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:12:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from splite@purdue.edu) Received: (from splite@localhost) by cynix.ecn.purdue.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19555 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:10:41 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Plite Message-Id: <199805090310.WAA19555@cynix.ecn.purdue.edu> Subject: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 22:10:40 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anybody know where to buy Happy Hacking keyboards in the US? Any other recommendations for a small-footprint keyboard (sans the Bill "I can make hardware manufacturers add any stupid feature I want" Gates' Ego keys?) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 20:19:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13465 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:19:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13445; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:18:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA25440; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:48:29 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980509124829.K12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 12:48:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Open Systems Networking Cc: Dan Benjamin , FreeBSD Chat , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSD Week (was: Demo CDs (was: blessing)) References: <19980504145711.M4777@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Watson on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:01:07AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 2:01:07 -0400, Chris Watson wrote: > >> BSD Week? What's that? > > Heh I knew someone would catch that :) > That i believe is dan's idea. A BSD magazine web based of course. > To give us a place to spill articles and whatnot like linuxjournal, or > linuxgazette. I started writing an article for it myself a few weeks ago > when dan first mentioned it. Part of that PR hooha I wanted to see happen. > This is a really good example of what I was talking about. > I think it will be great if it actually works and people write for it. > I'm just glad it has started. > But I'll let dan dish info on BSD week :) OK, Dan, go for it -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 20:24:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14355 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:24:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14256 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA25508; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:53:59 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980509125358.L12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 12:53:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Steven Plite , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? References: <199805090310.WAA19555@cynix.ecn.purdue.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805090310.WAA19555@cynix.ecn.purdue.edu>; from Steven Plite on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 10:10:40PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 22:10:40 -0500, Steven Plite wrote: > Anybody know where to buy Happy Hacking keyboards in the US? No, but I'd be interested in hearing about it. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 22:07:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23458 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:07:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23448 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id BAA05710; Sat, 9 May 1998 01:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id BAA26027; Sat, 9 May 1998 01:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 01:07:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Janowski To: drifter@stratos.net cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any one still use UUCP? In-Reply-To: <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm in the US and I use UUCP. It is a little weird since it is starkly different than what most people are used to with the contemporary Internet. The best use that I have made of it is UUCP over TCP for scheduled mail transfers. Folks without a dedicated line and who don't want a dailup going up and down for each bit of mail sent out can benefit from UUCP's queuing and scheduling. It is also better than the sendmail domain queue run directive. The current sendmail with the uucp-dom mailer does great re-writing of addresses in the user@domain style without getting and !'s. It is quaint, quirky, and fun in a slightly masochistic way. The Taylor UUCP implementation the FreeBSD uses is much (MUCH) better than the old AT&T stuff. Dan On Fri, 8 May 1998 drifter@stratos.net wrote: > I got kind of curious about UUCP and am doing some light reading of > old AT&T documents about it. I got the impression that UUCP was really the > only way to go in the dark ages before the Internet was as wide-spread > as it is today. I probably got the wrong impression, but I am wondering > if UUCP is an old hold-over from earlier times whose days are numbered > or if it is still in wide use today -- and if so, why? > I'm not so sure I want to splurge for ORA UUCP right now, since > I don't think I'd be doing a lot with it any way. (I don't think there > are "public" UUCP cites to experiment with :) ) > So, is UUCP a dying art? Is it that some places just don't have > access to the Internet or an Ethernet, but they can arrange for UUCP? > Or is there some advantage to UUCP that I am not aware about? > > Just curious... -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 22:25:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA26160 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:25:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA26154 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:25:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id BAA05755; Sat, 9 May 1998 01:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id BAA26084; Sat, 9 May 1998 01:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 01:25:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Janowski To: Marca Registrada cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Corel's proposed support for linux In-Reply-To: <19980508012405.01221@nyef.res.cmu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A friend of mine bought the WordPerfect package and runs it in Linux emulation under FreeBSD. I got the demo download and it works _really_ well. I'm going to buy it. He did inquire about direct FreeBSD support and they told him that they have not gotten much of any requests for it. I encourage you all to at least try the demo. Between this and the perl based PalmPilot stuff, I don't need FartBlows, except for Quicken (rats). Dan BTW: Download located at: http://www.sdcorp.com/demos/down.htm On Fri, 8 May 1998, Marca Registrada wrote: > > rely on our linux emulation. These apps are what Unix is lacking today > and what may bring it to the desktop and more businesses. I really hope > FreeBSD will be there in it's own right, and it is almost necessary to -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 8 22:38:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27251 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:38:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27243 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04953; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805090538.WAA04953@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Dan Janowski cc: Marca Registrada , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Corel's proposed support for linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 01:25:38 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:38:09 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I bought word perfect and I asked them for a FreeBSD version. I think that I will ask them again 8) Tnks! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 00:06:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA05781 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:06:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA05774 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:06:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA01119; Sat, 9 May 1998 01:06:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805090706.BAA01119@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 01:06:12 -0600 To: Dan Janowski , Marca Registrada From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Corel's proposed support for linux Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19980508012405.01221@nyef.res.cmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Didn't their older one work under SCO emulation? --Brett At 01:25 AM 5/9/98 -0400, Dan Janowski wrote: > > >A friend of mine bought the WordPerfect package >and runs it in Linux emulation under FreeBSD. I >got the demo download and it works _really_ well. >I'm going to buy it. > >He did inquire about direct FreeBSD support and >they told him that they have not gotten much of >any requests for it. > >I encourage you all to at least try the demo. >Between this and the perl based PalmPilot >stuff, I don't need FartBlows, except for >Quicken (rats). > >Dan > >BTW: Download located at: http://www.sdcorp.com/demos/down.htm > > >On Fri, 8 May 1998, Marca Registrada wrote: > >> >> rely on our linux emulation. These apps are what Unix is lacking today >> and what may bring it to the desktop and more businesses. I really hope >> FreeBSD will be there in it's own right, and it is almost necessary to > >-- >danj@3skel.com >Dan Janowski >Triskelion Systems, Inc. >Bronx, NY > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 02:03:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA16832 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 02:03:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA16825 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 02:03:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0.Beta7/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id LAA11836 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:03:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id KAA13325 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:10:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980509101007.A13321@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:10:07 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any one still use UUCP? Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net>; from drifter@stratos.net on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 05:55:15PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4274 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to drifter@stratos.net: > as it is today. I probably got the wrong impression, but I am wondering > if UUCP is an old hold-over from earlier times whose days are numbered > or if it is still in wide use today -- and if so, why? I use UUCP all the time in France. I'm even managing a small ISP that has a UUCP-only mail & News service. UUCP is essential in some countries where phone calls are expensive and they are in France (2.5 US$ / h -- peak time). It is also much more efficient than NNTP for News, you can get batches of 'em and so on. The machine connects itself automatically and get its batches during the night and that would be more complicated if going through PPP. When I'm connected, I use UUCP/TCP. Another advantage compared to regular PPP ISP is that you can manage your own users/domains automatically without having to get multiple POP/IMAP folders, you can act as a mail router for others and so on. UUCP is dying but still alive and kicking :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #8: Tue Apr 21 02:45:53 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 03:16:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA24634 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:16:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp7248.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA24629 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA01658; Sat, 9 May 1998 06:14:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 06:14:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Steven Plite cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? In-Reply-To: <199805090310.WAA19555@cynix.ecn.purdue.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 8 May 1998, Steven Plite wrote: > Anybody know where to buy Happy Hacking keyboards in the US? Any other > recommendations for a small-footprint keyboard (sans the Bill "I can make > hardware manufacturers add any stupid feature I want" Gates' Ego keys?) Just remap those keys to the Ctrl/Alt keys (my "menu" and "right window" key are mapped to enter, actually). What I really want is to use my left window key as a modifier key (for the purposes of shifting [hjkl] to the arrow keys, and [+=] to [|\]), but I think I need to hack kbdcontrol(1) before it can manage that. If I like the way that works, I might even move right shift over to the [-_] key and left-window as the modifier to return the [-_] key. You might find you actually begin to like them. :) -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 05:28:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA09629 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 05:28:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA09617 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 05:28:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi [206.173.119.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id IAA16976; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:28:50 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from voyager.cris.com (voyager.concentric.net [206.173.119.82]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.8) id IAA16060; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:28:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 08:28:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@voyager.cris.com To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: Steven Plite , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 9 May 1998, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: Every keyboard I have seen allows you to remove keypads by gently prying under them. Replacing the "M$" keys with whatever is relelvant to your remapping shouldn't be at all difficult. > Just remap those keys to the Ctrl/Alt keys (my "menu" and "right > window" key are mapped to enter, actually). > > What I really want is to use my left window key as a modifier key > (for the purposes of shifting [hjkl] to the arrow keys, and [+=] > to [|\]), but I think I need to hack kbdcontrol(1) before it can > manage that. If I like the way that works, I might even move > right shift over to the [-_] key and left-window as the modifier > to return the [-_] key. > > You might find you actually begin to like them. :) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 06:34:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14020 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 06:34:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA14015 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 06:34:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA22161; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 09:29:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Andrew Short cc: Steven Plite , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 9 May 1998, Andrew Short wrote: > On Sat, 9 May 1998, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > Every keyboard I have seen allows you to remove keypads by gently prying > under them. Replacing the "M$" keys with whatever is relelvant > to your remapping shouldn't be at all difficult. I don't see how that would help me. It would still be the same key, just a different glyph. [In fact, I don't want it to be a different key --- I intend to use it as a fourth modifier key.] If I was really allergic to Windows icons, I would just use a little duct tape on the things. ;-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 06:36:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14348 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 06:36:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA14343 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 06:36:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id JAA22394; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:36:41 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from voyager.cris.com (voyager.concentric.net [206.173.119.82]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id JAA29543; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 09:36:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@voyager.cris.com To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 9 May 1998, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > If I was really allergic to Windows icons, I would just use a > little duct tape on the things. ;-) Yet another solution! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 06:58:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16256 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 06:58:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA16251 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 06:58:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-231.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.231]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA14671; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:58:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA13824; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:58:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805091358.IAA13824@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Dan Janowski cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Corel's proposed support for linux In-reply-to: Message from Dan Janowski of "Sat, 09 May 1998 01:25:38 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 08:58:02 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Janowski writes: > > I encourage you all to at least try the demo. > Between this and the perl based PalmPilot > stuff, I don't need FartBlows, except for > Quicken (rats). Have you tried /usr/ports/misc/cbb in place of Quicken? > BTW: Download located at: http://www.sdcorp.com/demos/down.htm May I suggest when filling out the forms prior to download that one type "FreeBSD user" as your Title, your Linux version is "other, you heard of it on freebsd-chat, and comment that you want a FreeBSD-native version? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 07:02:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16704 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 07:02:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA16690 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 07:02:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0yYACE-0000ay-00; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:01:50 +0100 Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 15:01:50 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: Andrew Short , Steven Plite , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Every keyboard I have seen allows you to remove keypads by gently prying > > under them. Replacing the "M$" keys with whatever is relelvant > > to your remapping shouldn't be at all difficult. How about a FreeBSD daemon? > different key --- I intend to use it as a fourth modifier key.] Incidentally Windows sometimes allows you to use it as a fourth modifier (e.g. Win-R opens the Run dialog box) but not always (e.g. your own shortcuts can't use it), which shows how inconsistent Windows is (and what a gimmick these extra keys are!) Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 07:10:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17205 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 07:10:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA17143 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 07:10:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id KAA18776; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:10:02 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from voyager.cris.com (voyager.concentric.net [206.173.119.82]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id KAA04455; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:10:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@voyager.cris.com To: Ben Cohen cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 9 May 1998, Ben Cohen wrote: > > > Every keyboard I have seen allows you to remove keypads by gently prying > > > under them. Replacing the "M$" keys with whatever is relelvant > > > to your remapping shouldn't be at all difficult. > > How about a FreeBSD daemon? I'm sold! I'll have to whip out the high-res on this printer and see how small I can make him and still look good. > Incidentally Windows sometimes allows you to use it as a fourth modifier > (e.g. Win-R opens the Run dialog box) but not always (e.g. your own I never knew that before. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 08:24:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22802 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:24:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22794 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:24:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id RAA08388 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 9 May 1998 17:15:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02200; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:54:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980509165417.B2181@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 16:54:17 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any one still use UUCP? References: <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net> <19980509101007.A13321@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980509101007.A13321@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Sat, May 09, 1998 at 10:10:07AM +0200 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 09, 1998 at 10:10:07AM +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > Another advantage compared to regular PPP ISP is that you can manage your > own users/domains automatically without having to get multiple POP/IMAP > folders, you can act as a mail router for others and so on. > > UUCP is dying but still alive and kicking :-) Yes ;-)) -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas What gives you 90% more speed, for example in kernel compilation ? http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html "NT = Not Today" (Maggie Biggs) ``powered by FreeBSD SMP'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 08:25:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22937 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:25:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22928 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:25:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id RAA08377; Sat, 9 May 1998 17:15:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02191; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:53:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980509165335.A2181@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 16:53:35 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Dan Janowski , drifter@stratos.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any one still use UUCP? References: <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dan Janowski on Sat, May 09, 1998 at 01:07:09AM -0400 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 09, 1998 at 01:07:09AM -0400, Dan Janowski wrote: > The best use that I have made of it is UUCP over TCP for > scheduled mail transfers. Folks without a dedicated line and > who don't want a dailup going up and down for each bit of mail > sent out can benefit from UUCP's queuing and scheduling. It > is also better than the sendmail domain queue run directive. Agreed. My internet provider is a true ISP and I'm really happy that I can get News and Mail batched via UUCP. > The current sendmail with the uucp-dom mailer does great > re-writing of addresses in the user@domain style without > getting and !'s. Yes, no problem here ! Much better setting up true batch mode than to fiddle around with mail queues and such ... -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas What gives you 90% more speed, for example in kernel compilation ? http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html "NT = Not Today" (Maggie Biggs) ``powered by FreeBSD SMP'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 09:10:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26134 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:10:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from postoffice.onu.edu (postoffice.onu.edu [140.228.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26116 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:10:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from n-ludban@onu.edu) Received: from austin.onu.edu (austin.onu.edu [140.228.10.1]) by postoffice.onu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA06633; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 12:10:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Neil Ludban To: Steven Plite cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? In-Reply-To: <199805090310.WAA19555@cynix.ecn.purdue.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 May 1998, Steven Plite wrote: > Anybody know where to buy Happy Hacking keyboards in the US? Any other > recommendations for a small-footprint keyboard (sans the Bill "I can make > hardware manufacturers add any stupid feature I want" Gates' Ego keys?) You might check and see if the 84 key BTC-5100 is what you're looking for. The keys between the letters and number pad are missing, replaced by a function key where Bill's key would be. Telenet Systems (www.tesys.com) is the only place I've seen them. --Neil +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Your mouse has moved. Windows NT must be restarted for the change | | to take effect. Reboot now? [ OK ] | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 10:50:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04485 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:50:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04475 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:50:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-231.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.231]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA30359 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:49:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA05657 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:49:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805091749.MAA05657@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? In-reply-to: Message from Andrew Short of "Sat, 09 May 1998 10:10:02 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 12:49:18 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew Short writes: > On Sat, 9 May 1998, Ben Cohen wrote: > > > > > Every keyboard I have seen allows you to remove keypads by gently pryin > g > > > > under them. Replacing the "M$" keys with whatever is relelvant > > > > to your remapping shouldn't be at all difficult. > > > > How about a FreeBSD daemon? > > I'm sold! I'll have to whip out the high-res on this printer and see how > small I can make him and still look good. While you are at it, I've been wishing somebody (such as WC) would produce the little guy in a 1.00" x 1.00" format suitable for pasting in the indention found on all generic PC enclosures. I wish to leave no doubt that nothing but FreeBSD is in this box. Even if WC only put a 1x1 Chuckie in their catalog, then I'd have one to cut out. So I've been cutting out larger Chuckies and taping them in place. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 11:20:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08780 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:20:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08759 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:20:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id OAA03635; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:20:14 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from voyager.cris.com (voyager.concentric.net [206.173.119.82]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id OAA22261; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:20:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@voyager.cris.com To: David Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? In-Reply-To: <199805091749.MAA05657@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 9 May 1998, David Kelly wrote: > While you are at it, I've been wishing somebody (such as WC) would > produce the little guy in a 1.00" x 1.00" format suitable for pasting > in the indention found on all generic PC enclosures. I wish to leave no > doubt that nothing but FreeBSD is in this box. A set of stickers would sell quite well, at least initially. > Even if WC only put a 1x1 Chuckie in their catalog, then I'd have one > to cut out. So I've been cutting out larger Chuckies and taping them in > place. http://www.freebsd.org/gifs/dae_up2.gif This guy prints out to about 1"x1". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 16:34:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15893 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:34:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15817 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:34:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0.Beta7/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id BAA20230 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:33:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id AAA16993 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:41:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980510004123.A16983@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 00:41:23 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any one still use UUCP? Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net> <19980509101007.A13321@keltia.freenix.fr> <19980509165417.B2181@klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: <19980509165417.B2181@klemm.gtn.com>; from Andreas Klemm on Sat, May 09, 1998 at 04:54:17PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4274 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Andreas Klemm: > > UUCP is dying but still alive and kicking :-) > > Yes ;-)) Proper support in sendmail/rmail has even made it more attractive than ever because the only way you could see I'm using UUCP is by reading my Received: headers... No more '!', long bang paths, routing problems and so on. UUCP, it just works. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #8: Tue Apr 21 02:45:53 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 17:46:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22308 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 17:46:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22302; Sat, 9 May 1998 17:46:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial1-8.cybercom.net [209.21.137.8]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12852; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:29:49 -0400 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There's an interesting bit of reading about Mark Andreesen's views on Netscape's ties to Linux at http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980402S0013. One of the more interesting paragraphs is: ----> Andreessen outlined a scenario in which Mozilla, as the Communicator code is called, becomes the GUI that runs on top of a Linux operating system. Netscape is taking steps to make this a reality, including making Linux a "total reference" platform just like Win 32 and Macintosh, and will develop all its products to work with the Linux. Third-party developers have already compiled the Communicator code for Linux. <---- If Netscape really is considering expanding the reference list, is there any way that we can get in on it? K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 18:23:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25996 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25979; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:23:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA11068; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:27:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199805100127.LAA11068@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> from The Classiest Man Alive at "May 9, 98 07:29:49 pm" To: ksmm@threespace.com (The Classiest Man Alive) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:27:53 +1000 (EST) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > If Netscape really is considering expanding the reference list, is there > any way that we can get in on it? Jamie Zawinski from Mozilla.org expressed the view that there is no Linux or FreeBSD port of mozilla, just a Unix port. And the the term "reference platform" means that all mozilla features are available on the Unix port, then that includes FreeBSD. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 18:29:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26621 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:29:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net (pm3-8-15.stratos.net [207.86.133.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26615 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:29:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) From: drifter@stratos.net Received: from stratos.net (localhost.net [127.0.0.1]) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17909; Sat, 9 May 1998 21:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805100118.VAA17909@stratos.net> To: Dan Janowski cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any one still use UUCP? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 01:07:09 EDT." Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 21:18:41 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 09 May 1998 01:07:09 EDT, Dan Janowski wrote... > [...] >The best use that I have made of it is UUCP over TCP for >scheduled mail transfers. Folks without a dedicated line and >who don't want a dailup going up and down for each bit of mail >sent out can benefit from UUCP's queuing and scheduling. It >is also better than the sendmail domain queue run directive. Hmm... I also grab mail in batches off the internet. Except I use a cron script that runs every four hours. As part of the script, /usr/sbin/sendmail -q is run after a ppp connection is established (via /usr/sbin/ppp -background, so the phone doesn't keep going up and down :) ), and the waiting mail is queued out. The ppp process is killed after the script is done. Probably more work than it's worth :) I didn't know you could run TCP over UUCP, though. -Drifter (I hate it when I spell something wrong in the Subject: header!) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 19:19:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00900 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:19:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xcf.berkeley.edu (scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA00869 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:19:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nordwick@xcf.berkeley.edu) Received: (qmail 11548 invoked by uid 27268); 10 May 1998 02:21:04 -0000 Date: 10 May 1998 02:21:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19980510022104.11547.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu> From: Jason Nordwick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: The Classiest Man Alive Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: ksmm@threespace.com on 5/9/1998 to advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> References: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Classiest Man Alive, on Sat 5/9/1998, wrote the following: > > There's an interesting bit of reading about Mark Andreesen's views on > Netscape's ties to Linux at > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980402S0013. One of the more > interesting paragraphs is: > > ----> > Andreessen outlined a scenario in which Mozilla, as the Communicator code is > called, becomes the GUI that runs on top of a Linux operating system. > Netscape is taking steps to make this a reality, including making Linux a > "total reference" platform just like Win 32 and Macintosh, and will develop > all its products to work with the Linux. Third-party developers have already > compiled the Communicator code for Linux. > <---- > > If Netscape really is considering expanding the reference list, is there > any way that we can get in on it? > > > K.S. > Porbably not, I dont get the feeling that Netscape is doing this for The Right Reasons, but just more for Market positioning. I have given up on them and most of the new Open Source companies. They are not supporting Open Source software, but are using the "new" idea to get their name out and sell their product. You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all grownup here. Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 19:30:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02185 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:30:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02158; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:30:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00766; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805100230.TAA00766@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jason Nordwick cc: The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "10 May 1998 02:21:04 -0000." <19980510022104.11547.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:30:12 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Try to go out with a bang so if you read linux as reference make it a point to also include FreeBSD as a viable Open OS Platform and if you get caught in a stupid linux flame fest you can always ask us for support by posting on this mailing list. Enjoy, Amancio > > The Classiest Man Alive, on Sat 5/9/1998, wrote the following: > > > > There's an interesting bit of reading about Mark Andreesen's views on > > Netscape's ties to Linux at > > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980402S0013. One of the more > > interesting paragraphs is: > > > > ----> > > Andreessen outlined a scenario in which Mozilla, as the Communicator code is > > called, becomes the GUI that runs on top of a Linux operating system. > > Netscape is taking steps to make this a reality, including making Linux a > > "total reference" platform just like Win 32 and Macintosh, and will develop > > all its products to work with the Linux. Third-party developers have already > > compiled the Communicator code for Linux. > > <---- > > > > If Netscape really is considering expanding the reference list, is there > > any way that we can get in on it? > > > > > > K.S. > > > > Porbably not, I dont get the feeling that Netscape is doing this > for The Right Reasons, but just more for Market positioning. I > have given up on them and most of the new Open Source companies. > They are not supporting Open Source software, but are using the > "new" idea to get their name out and sell their product. > > You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is > giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or > Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all > grownup here. > > Jay > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 20:06:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04640 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA04629; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:06:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id XAA01325; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 23:05:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Jason Nordwick cc: The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <19980510022104.11547.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10 May 1998, Jason Nordwick wrote: > Porbably not, I dont get the feeling that Netscape is doing this > for The Right Reasons, but just more for Market positioning. I > have given up on them and most of the new Open Source companies. > They are not supporting Open Source software, but are using the > "new" idea to get their name out and sell their product. > > You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is > giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or > Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all > grownup here. I have posted this same belief myself twice now, and have been told twice 1) we have friends at netscape. 2) Jamie says they want a "UNIX" version NOT a linux version or FreeBSD version. So each time i'm told this not a few days later another PRO-Linux article comes out from mozilla's website or andreesen himself is quoted publicly stating netscapes main goal is linux. No one has a straight story, it keeps changing, they say one thing and then a few weeks later say the opposite. Ill just run the mozilla we have, and if that dies a horrid death ill just run the linux binary. It isn't a huge deal to me anymore, you have to learn to pick your fights, and this isn't mine. I would much rather work on increasing our server share. And thats what im doing. I have found something here in the pit of hell[1] that actually sells. Little 486's configured for dial-on-demand, with a 500MB-1GB Squid cache for small offices. I include a small el cheapo hub and a pack of NE2000 nic cards, and people are ditching their cable modems at their office :) Another 40K of these and I can retire! [1] If you have ever wondered where sinners go after death, they dont go to hell they go to kansas. Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 20:19:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05470 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:19:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05464; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:19:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA01820; Sat, 9 May 1998 22:19:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 22:19:15 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 9 May 1998, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > ----> > Andreessen outlined a scenario in which Mozilla, as the Communicator code is > called, becomes the GUI that runs on top of a Linux operating system. > Netscape is taking steps to make this a reality, including making Linux a > "total reference" platform just like Win 32 and Macintosh, and will develop > all its products to work with the Linux. Third-party developers have already > compiled the Communicator code for Linux. > <---- Hm, where have I heard this before? 'The Web browser is an integral part of the OS; you can't take it out...' I can't imagine he's actually taking that tack. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 20:35:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07087 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:35:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07082; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:35:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial1-8.cybercom.net [209.21.137.8]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13121; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805100340.XAA13121@zephyr.cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 23:36:40 -0400 To: John Birrell From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199805100127.LAA11068@cimlogic.com.au> References: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:27 PM 5/9/98 , you wrote: >Jamie Zawinski from Mozilla.org expressed the view that there is no Linux >or FreeBSD port of mozilla, just a Unix port. And the the term "reference >platform" means that all mozilla features are available on the Unix port, >then that includes FreeBSD. Then I wish somebody would drop the word over to Marc. His name dropping and posing for pictures with Tux aren't doing anything to help the UNIX community on the whole. The technical playing field may actually be more level, but we can't afford to ignore the ugly implications of these statements from a marketing perspective. K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 9 22:11:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14920 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 22:11:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14902; Sat, 9 May 1998 22:11:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00309; Sat, 9 May 1998 22:11:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805100511.WAA00309@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: John Birrell , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 23:36:40 EDT." <199805100340.XAA13121@zephyr.cybercom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 22:11:05 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Netscape , Food for Thought: I don't see anyone bitching about NCI's choice of NetBSD (NC Clients) and FreeBSD (NC Server) nor Yahoo's choice of FreeBSD servers. So please elevate FreeBSD to the same status as Linux. Someone can post or e-mail to Marc the above. Thank You, Amancio I don't see the BSD camps > At 09:27 PM 5/9/98 , you wrote: > >Jamie Zawinski from Mozilla.org expressed the view that there is no Linux > >or FreeBSD port of mozilla, just a Unix port. And the the term "reference > >platform" means that all mozilla features are available on the Unix port, > >then that includes FreeBSD. > > > Then I wish somebody would drop the word over to Marc. His name dropping > and posing for pictures with Tux aren't doing anything to help the UNIX > community on the whole. > > The technical playing field may actually be more level, but we can't afford > to ignore the ugly implications of these statements from a marketing > perspective. > > K.S. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message