Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 08:26:48 -0700 From: Freddie Cash <fjwcash@gmail.com> To: Kevin Oberman <rkoberman@gmail.com> Cc: Kimmo Paasiala <kpaasial@gmail.com>, Robert Simmons <rsimmons0@gmail.com>, freebsd-ports <freebsd-ports@freebsd.org>, Bryan Drewery <bdrewery@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Growing list of required(ish) ports Message-ID: <CAOjFWZ6EMjsBLHde-x7ZAx1qPmCB%2BvOSyCt-WWkmxtYfJsCJQw@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CAN6yY1ttmkiV_ns1qfhjd8ROiZ8WfUfmaj%2Ba1N6Ezapj3-QNcw@mail.gmail.com> References: <CA%2BQLa9Af3CC=FKMkrnmSL_-frW7ZvCQJ3=q7xkHUz5-3YyE3fQ@mail.gmail.com> <51622F44.3050604@FreeBSD.org> <CA%2BQLa9C5pfcRWrLXEiKzZEvVYd5W=wbN9i5wjtp=m92Fn8oq5w@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B7WWSfwGBfXRcmc0UJ2ebguq5%2B-pYY82eopicpPcgeKxUCj3A@mail.gmail.com> <CAN6yY1ttmkiV_ns1qfhjd8ROiZ8WfUfmaj%2Ba1N6Ezapj3-QNcw@mail.gmail.com>
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Note: I may have messed up the quoting/attribution by snipping things. On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Kevin Oberman <rkoberman@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 8:34 PM, Kimmo Paasiala <kpaasial@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On the other hand, there are a number of things that I think should be > > > pulled out of base. Some already have ports, and others would need > > > ports created. Examples of things to pull out of base are OpenSSL, > > > Heimdal, OpenSSH, PF, ntpd, ipfilter, bind, sendmail, and others. > > > Code that is typically way behind the upstream project basically. > > > > > > > I think Bryan already explained the reasons why pkg should not be in > > base, it's an external tool that is not strictly required to get a bare > > bones FreeBSD system up and running. Including it in base you create > > yet another maintainance burden and would slow down the development of > > the ports/packages management tools. > > What people seem to miss is that putting tools into the base system > strangles the tools. Look at the difficulty we have seen in updating > openssl. perl was removed from base for exactly that reason. Once something > is in base, it usually can only be updated on major releases and even then > it can be very complicated. That is a problem for any dynamically changing > tool. > > I would love to see BIND removed from base, but most of the things you > listed really are hard to remove. I know that I don't want to try bringing > up a new install of FreeBSD on a remote system without OpenSSH and that > pulls in openssl. In the case of many tools, it really turns into a > bikeshed. But i can see no reason to add any of the new packaging tools > simply because it is critical that updates be possible far more often than > is possible for the base system. > > Moving OpenSSH, OpenSSL, etc into the ports tree, but making the pkgs available on the installation media, and having a final hook at the end to install "required" pkgs, would solve that. There's already a "do you want to enable OpenSSH daemon" question in the installed, so adding "pkg add /path/to/openssh-x.y.z.txz" wouldn't be hard. Same for bind, sendmail, kerberos, etc. For instance, just add a "daemon selection screen" for each bit removed from base, to select which ones you want installed as part of the OS install. The hard part comes in finding stub/clients for each item moved to a pkg, such that a desktop-oriented install is not hampered (ie, SSH client is usable, DNS lookups can be done, local mail can be generated/delivered, etc). The really hard part is coming up with a migration path for those who upgrade via source builds. -- Freddie Cash fjwcash@gmail.com
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