From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 21 20:29:55 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4681116A47C for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:29:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from canacar@eee.metu.edu.tr) Received: from ee.eee.metu.edu.tr (ee.eee.metu.edu.tr [144.122.166.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8A413C4AD for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:29:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from canacar@eee.metu.edu.tr) Received: from localhost (localhost.eee.metu.edu.tr [127.0.0.1]) by ee.eee.metu.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6099D7C65; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:07:03 +0200 (EET) Received: from ee.eee.metu.edu.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ee.eee.metu.edu.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08059-03; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:07:02 +0200 (EET) Received: by ee.eee.metu.edu.tr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D0E9CD7C52; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:07:02 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:07:02 +0200 From: Can Erkin Acar To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20070321200702.GA10083@ee.eee.metu.edu.tr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070319053226.GA1131@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at eee.metu.edu.tr Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:29:55 -0000 On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:32:26 +0100 Szilveszter Adam wrote: > I tread very carefully here, after all, the area is full of dead horses > and I might accidentally commit violence against some of them by > beating them up some more... [snip] > The "real" blobs are quite few on FreeBSD, because vendors do not see > enough incentive to develop drivers for FreeBSD yet mostly, not even > closed-source. The only prominent example would be the Nvidia drivers, > which are a) not in any way included by default b) are not required for > the operation of FreeBSD itself, but rather are for Xorg. You can of > course decide to not use those, but the simple reality is that for some > hardware, they are the only way to work somewhat ok. This is so much > so, that even Ubuntu decided to include the Nvidia and ATI blob drivers > by default into their next release instead of just by direct request. "even Ubuntu?" what a nice OS you have chosen to compare FreeBSD with ... Guess what, even Debian does not have blobs in default install. > So, even if someone does not like "blobs", they are quite well off on > FreeBSD. If you do not use the Nvidia drivers, you are mostly ok unless > you use some funky vendor-provided third-party stuff but then it is not > FreeBSD's but your responsibility. And no, do not let the OpenBSD > propagada mislead you: just because *firmware* is licensed and cannot be > freely distributed for some hardware, that does not make it a "blob". Please do not misguide people. OpenBSD did not ever say that "a firmware with a bad license is a blob" This is a completeley separate issue, not related to blobs. It is a "firmware that can not be distributed" It prevents people from using hardware that they have already paid for on their OS of choice. This is a problem that must be solved Not by making compromises, by including the firmware and making your users turn knobs to "accept" a license. Most of them will not even have an idea that they are actually aggreeing to: "Just type sysctl xyz=1 and your wireless will magically work" An OS that claims to be free should not make its users jump through legal hoops. It should prevent such nastiness by getting vendors to allow distribution of the firmware (Come on! It is just distribution rights! The damn thing is already in the Windows CDs bundled with your card) Consenting to the vendor's wishes and adding knobs and ugly legal hacks to the code just makes it hard for other people trying to get vendors to allow distribution. This is the only similiarity to blobs: Once a "Free" OS consents to blobs, it makes it much harder for others to get specs and documentation from the same vendor. Unfortunately, FreeBSD is doing the Open Source world a disservice by allowing blobs and making "special" deals with vendors for distributing such firmware. It is already hurting us, and will hurt everyone, including FreeBSD much more in the future. Can