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Date:      Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:25:10 -0700
From:      "Christian Booth (Macrosearch Inc)" <a-cbooth@microsoft.com>
To:        "'djv@bedford.net'" <djv@bedford.net>
Cc:        "'questions@freebsd.org'" <questions@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject:   RE: hummmmm... <-MICROSOFT.COM???
Message-ID:  <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD54038C38A2@RED-MSG-44>

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Interesting....



>We all have to eat, I agree, but we do
have a choice at which table we sit, don't we?
Well Jesus sat with the Thieves and the Taxpayers.

>At one point in my career, I said to myself that it would be better
for me and my family to starve to death than to take money from
the source it was coming from.
To this I say that is on you if you would like to have your family starve
that's ok with me! I choose to love my children! I also made a pretty hard
move in my career, that was when I left Boeing as an IRIX admin, to go take
a short 8 month opportunity.

>There is no way to live inside the Beast and not ultimately become
part of It.  Digestion is Its most powerful force.
Funny I think just because I leave on the 28th.. I came in for a big reason
NT 5, well now that it has taken its true direction I head that way.

>"How many M$ Professionals does it take to install FreeBSD?"
Well it was actually one MS person, and that was me! The rest are either
programmers and one other admin who is actually a Unix admin, and I have no
shame asking the lists I mean that's how most of us learned things. You
don't ask you don't know. Now its people like you that make people stupid
cause they are afraid to ask, no to me that is pretty stupid on your part
since you are supposed to be one of the people on "FreeBSD-questions" should
you not change that to "rag-yourass@freebsd.org"

>From another, most M$ types use hotmail or juno accounts for this
sort of thing. It may even be M$ policy
No actually its not. Even for newslist you can use it, now allot of people
do that, but I figure your place would be one that was ok to not bother with
hotmail. But with a flame like this I will be sure to let everyone know that
your list has some trash talkers and they should not email you. 

>Another: Since M$ is ruining the careers of my brother hackers,
forcing them into early retirements, throwing them on the streets,
or deskilling them into NT-rebooters, and is foisting NT on the world
without regard for either its technical or economic merits, whatever
those may be, why should I help you?

Really? Sounds to me like you are just another person trying to be on the
hacker bandwagon. Why should you help me? Well if that is an issue then your
mail should not be "questions" why would you be a big hypocrite and say
"questions" when you don't really answer them!?

>Another: You're on a mission for M$, which doesn't give tech support
for free. What are you prepared to offer ME? let's talk $100/hr.

No actually I am not on a mission for MS, I am on a mission of finding out
if FreeBSD is better than LinuX? Pay you $100 hr? hahah, with your great
customer service.. gee that's a tough one.. pay $100 bucks for attitude..
man I can get that anywhere for free... 


 -------------------------------------------------------------------

Another: since you've got NT spewing out all over the place, why
don't you use it? Don't trust your own work?

Since when did it become my work??
I find it pretty funny.. I mean your ISP is a MS supporter.. and this is
even cooler.. check it out.. 
Bedford.net policy.

2. No Advertising 

Other early policies included deciding on approaches to advertising and
privacy. While you look around, you'll notice that we don't sell any
advertising spaces on our website to other companies -- there's enough of
that on the internet already. We sell internet service to you. We don't try
to force-feed you advertising -- you didn't sign up for that. The Internet
Explorer logo is an exception, as Microsoft requires it under a distribution
agreement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<Pretty cool that they make exceptions for little
old us!>. Any links that we have to other sites are here because they are
part of our community or because they provide something useful to the
experience of our users, not because they are paying us to lure you to their
site. 


Last thing, I got mail from about 4 other people at this list who were all
very helpful polite and very willing to help. No I feel sorry for them that
they are being represented with someone of your stature! You have one big
problem and that is you are looking at the big picture, not the little one.
So you think about that, oh and your little tag at the bottom....

>We're just wizards here, not mind readers.

Unlike M$ "documentation", the stuff FreeBSD supplies is intended to
be read.

Thanks I will make sure everyone reads the stuff from FreeBSD
Christian J.W. Booth
Microsoft Certified Professional
NT 5.0 Mig Team / SysAdmin 
Email: a-cbooth
Phone: 23266
Teach us to number our days, 
that we may gain a heart of wisdom. 


-----Original Message-----
From: djv@bedford.net [mailto:djv@bedford.net]
Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 5:29 PM
To: Christian Booth (Macrosearch Inc)
Subject: Re: hummmmm... <-MICROSOFT.COM???


Christian Booth wrote
> ouch... I am getting slammed...man thats pretty weak... Jumpin on
somebodys
> case cause of where they work..

Well, I do know how that can be, but I didn't really say anything
against the Beast, did I?  We all have to eat, I agree, but we do
have a choice at which table we sit, don't we?  You don't have to
take the Beast's favors.

At one point in my career, I said to myself that it would be better
for me and my family to starve to death than to take money from
the source it was coming from. On that day, when I accepted
any consequence at all, my soul was freed and my honor began to
regrow.

You don't have to do the things the Beast tells you to do.  The
Beast persuades and seduces, It does not compel.

There is no way to live inside the Beast and not ultimately become
part of It.  Digestion is Its most powerful force.

Consider both your own .sig and mine.

> Teach us to number our days, 
> that we may gain a heart of wisdom. 

              Confutatis maledictis, flammis acribus addictis.
 -------------------------------------------------------------------

>From another point of view, it's rather amusing that a room full of
M$ experts can't seem to accomplish what a high school sophomore
and a README file can. 

"How many M$ Professionals does it take to install FreeBSD?"

"Ten. Nine to screw things up, and another to ask the lists."
 -------------------------------------------------------------------

>From another, most M$ types use hotmail or juno accounts for this
sort of thing. It may even be M$ policy. A microsoft.com or even
an msn.net email address leads straight to many people's killfiles.
There's a war on, if you hadn't noticed. You're smack dab
in the center of the enemy's camp right now, and many will consider 
you to be on some kind of evil mission. There have been M$
provocation campaigns before, often from known M$ spammers,
on the Usenet groups, typically with content very similar to
yours. "Why is this so hard to install?" Without any other
data, the idea being to discourage newbies.

 ------------------------------------------------------------------

Another: Since M$ is ruining the careers of my brother hackers,
forcing them into early retirements, throwing them on the streets,
or deskilling them into NT-rebooters, and is foisting NT on the world
without regard for either its technical or economic merits, whatever
those may be, why should I help you?

 -------------------------------------------------------------------

Another: You're on a mission for M$, which doesn't give tech support
for free. What are you prepared to offer ME? let's talk $100/hr.

 -------------------------------------------------------------------

Another: since you've got NT spewing out all over the place, why
don't you use it? Don't trust your own work?

 -------------------------------------------------------------------

>From yet another, here's your original query and the response I would
make if you weren't in the Beast.


From: "Christian Booth (Macrosearch Inc)" <a-cbooth@microsoft.com>

Hello,
	Ok I downloaded the whole 2.2.7 got everything \bin \tools
etc...etc... I put it on a 2 gig file server. After that 8 of my mate and I
(all with differnent PC's)  copied the files over to our systems, and then
installed starting with the boot floppy. We ran in to alot of problems, most
was not  finding a file during the install, one could not find anything. I
imaged the same folder structure that was in the handbook on every box, we
formated our PC's and did this two more times still with 0 results. Could
you please let me know what the secret formula is to install FreeBSD. We are
all pretty decent UNIX users and some Admins. We have heard good things
about FreeBSD so we thought that we would give it a try and maybe replace
our LinuX servers with it, if it is good as we have heard. Thank you.

 
Response:

You will be much better off leaving the files on the server, and
doing the installation from there using ftp, if the server is capable
of ftp. Installing from a local disc partition is not such a good idea,
particularly if running under non standard OS's, which may not properly
preserve file names and permissions, or mysteriously lose files.

Some pointers: a "folder" is properly called a "directory" in Unix;
the term folder has small employment referring to a "mail folder",
which is a file containing  1 or more email messages. The canonical
directory name separator is the /, not the \ which is used to
escape the following character. Perhaps you have mis-specified
some filenames?

In your case I would start over, having made space on whatever
harddisk where 'BSD is to be installed. Then boot the installation
floppy, correctly partition the harddisk, and then disklabel
the partition dedicated to FreeBSD. 

Use an ftp installation from the server, specifying it by IP number,
not name. A nameserver is not needed at this point, and in a M$
environment may cause trouble.

When asking questions, it is a very good idea to specify completely
what you are doing. In this case:

	Machine name, CPU type, memory, attached peripherals,
	naming them /explicitly/. I.e Seagate ST32550 drive
	on Adapatec AIC-7880 controller as ID 2, not "some
	SCSI drive".

	Exactly which steps in the installation process have been
	completed, and the precise error messages encountered.
	For example: "After completing the X-Developer level
	installation and setting up the networking, I exited 
	installation and rebooted. The kernel did the device
	probes, but then panicked, saying; "Panic -- cannot mount
	root device",  not "It doesn't work".

We're just wizards here, not mind readers.

Unlike M$ "documentation", the stuff FreeBSD supplies is intended to
be read.

Dave

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