From owner-freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 7 06:27:14 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ports@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E4C1065670 for ; Fri, 7 May 2010 06:27:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from itetcu@FreeBSD.org) Received: from worf.ds9.tecnik93.com (worf.ds9.tecnik93.com [81.196.207.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B798FC12 for ; Fri, 7 May 2010 06:27:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from it.buh.tecnik93.com (it.buh.tecnik93.com [81.196.204.98]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by worf.ds9.tecnik93.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AB33B22C5406; Fri, 7 May 2010 09:27:11 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 09:27:03 +0300 From: Ion-Mihai Tetcu To: Mihai Militaru Message-ID: <20100507092703.773c4f3d@it.buh.tecnik93.com> In-Reply-To: <20100507032750.c97f7886.mihai.militaru@gmx.com> References: <4BDF1F8D.4090401@gmail.com> <20100503230127.58979b9f@it.buh.tecnik93.com> <20100504171535.0b661c12@it.buh.tecnik93.com> <20100507032750.c97f7886.mihai.militaru@gmx.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.5 (GTK+ 2.18.7; amd64-portbld-freebsd8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/9xBrLx9R1qIKdc2NuaLXVWJ"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Cc: ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dixit port bad management X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 06:27:14 -0000 --Sig_/9xBrLx9R1qIKdc2NuaLXVWJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ top posting makes it hard to read ] On Fri, 7 May 2010 03:27:50 +0300 Mihai Militaru wrote: > Sarcasm may not be an excuse for an irrational behavior.=20 I don't understand what you are referring to above. And let me note there is a difference between sarcasm and insults. > I noted this "suprematism" he's talking about as well, although I'd > not call it like that - it assumes a superiority - but an unnecessary > hubris. Most questions I investigated since I'm on this system have > been answered already here and there on the internet by some > maintainers, things like: "go read the Bible", "it is a problem with > your hardware", "you've done something wrong." or no answer. Note the > period after "wrong". Well, first of all I would avoid putting labels like this. The only thing you can get is get the other people (the one that actually do the work, as imperfect as it might be) upset. Compared to the major Linux distros, you might want to keep one thing in mind: we are not backed-up by a commercial entity that pays for our work and for the hardware to do the work on. Indeed, I am not aware of any ports committer hired by someone to work on ports. So when someone who did nothing at all pops up and starts shouting at people, those people that actually did spend a few hours per day, each day, for some years, getting things to work on FreeBSD, not only for themselves but also for others, and helping users, spending money on hardware bandwidth and electricity (do a quick math for example for 4 machines x 24/7/365 x 6-7 years), etc. ... no good result can be expected. "Tonul face muzica" ;) There is a difference between: "With S I tied to do this and this, I expected G to happen but instead B happened, here is the debug information I've been able to collect and the steps to reproduce the problem" and "S is a piece of shit and you suck". The former approach will likely to get the problem fixed, being it a software error or a pilot error. The later will likely get the person that could help throw up his hands in disgust and take a (hopefully non-permanent) vacation from any work he does for free. > I understand that people are busy, we should collaborate (aka. I > should fix some bugs as well) - but that assumes that users who are > not expert should be helped with tips, advices quickstarts not to be > dismissed as suckers.=20 I do not think this is the case in our community. In my experience we're much friendlier that a lot of other. As for "should be helped" -- yes. Should !=3D Must; in other words, when the X that already did some work, finished providing for himself and his family, that X can start thinking about helping others, writing code for free, etc. In F/OSS word things work like this: one write the code, others use it (and RTFM about it). If someone needs more support then that someone is free to pay for it. > Indeed, like Tim said, the ports are listed -I was happy to see that > I could use most of the software I was used to - but a lot of them > simply don't work, in other words they're empty advertising. The PRs numbers for those broken things please? > Let's take an example: LXDE. We have a desktop listed; its > capabilities? Dumping core on amd64, since Q1 2009 if not earlier. > Nobody says anything about it, I would like to ask about it, but The PR in which you reported this please? I don't use it, I know people that use it with success (dunno if on amd64 or not), there's no way to test at run-time a port, except by actually running it. If nobody says anything, no one can know something is broken, except if it stumbles on it. > considering the "encouragement" I got from my previous experiences - > eg. a simple unanswered question about openssl and something else > where "my hardware was faulty" although it works flawlessly on other > OSs - I prefer to shut up and get back to my torn and partially sewed > installation. Well, the "faulty hardware part" might actually be true; it's amazing how much bad (as in non standard-compliant, or even own specs-compliant) hardware there is out there. Take a look for example, at he acpi code SVN logs, or the network cards drivers commit logs (or the code itself). The fact that other OSes work might mean they have a workaround or better information from the vendor, or that we have a bug, or ... > Thanks for reading and btw, I like FreeBSD, its principles and many > things to count, so don't try to kick me out back on Linux :P. > That means that I seriously appreciate most of what's done and I'm > excited something new almost every day, except for these unfortunate > situations which break any hope of reliability, from a pragmatic POV. Glad you like it. And please help us making it better. =20 > What would be the best approach for an user who simply can't find > other way around than to get help or ask for something to be fixed, > to keep insisting, posting new threads? [ .. ] Maybe take a stab at fixing it himself? Or trying to see if he can get more information to the people more knowledge in that area? --=20 IOnut - Un^d^dregistered ;) FreeBSD "user" "Intellectual Property" is nowhere near as valuable as "Intellect" FreeBSD committer -> itetcu@FreeBSD.org, PGP Key ID 057E9F8B493A297B --Sig_/9xBrLx9R1qIKdc2NuaLXVWJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkvjsr4ACgkQJ7GIuiH/oeUqagCfbj0CsT+IyCJJTY86v+sxsMo7 hvQAn2K4l1TWdzaFSUOS00y+oM29u1hA =oWGB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/9xBrLx9R1qIKdc2NuaLXVWJ--