From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Jan 3 20:25:08 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E822E14362A4 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2019 20:25:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi1-f177.google.com (mail-oi1-f177.google.com [209.85.167.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 074488E48D for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2019 20:25:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi1-f177.google.com with SMTP id x202so28685231oif.13 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2019 12:25:06 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7k/I0z3xQp4zVVif4rQsE/aKvi7CHj1awL2Vc+nkzvk=; b=AzYn1sufeizwL6BB16o3kQeELLU/kTUMPk2vAIapHoQHsHcxTLi+biFoHNjNYHphOO /k9nitLFiLlQgNkw7PLPxOJ6WR4vKXpJbw/2Nl2j3SHsuNV7eiY9v1ophjZzmgRNNuzK VL/iBB1J7npNbbw8YZ1TWmGCSqBSMrB1klPjhs5QrtysyHji1d0K2KoAAi89Ac+i8qPJ MlD/R3zqXc9/Vy/+gjiRk3MqgoA5Gf/A3gCxZ3l5ZFbofO06J0bM3vYDwUTwDEOz5dqD +aIigAQ30gkT5AchPaulRkUSTRCJcjQkDRuA/N+ojdRpJoMlB8LFyMVeB8mN8Th4OSMs pBSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYb25nrp2kknpV7RBhtRzU9y3HjX1PQobERdXJ8Qi7f3q4zcLhz EaTjxJRoA+tgxlw71sGkWgYq8MxVq1v5kbAogB/DmpeP X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XtpqEU0QZCeGhnVtLZVg8F5ZVtd+Q5ucA1UpYeejnwDTHuQGDh/fFYod7d8/ghW1C99VR7OsyHvgEOP04zJ4Q= X-Received: by 2002:aca:c382:: with SMTP id t124mr34181424oif.220.1546547105485; Thu, 03 Jan 2019 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> <6DF138FB-E730-477A-A992-8FE1944DDE94@exonetric.com> In-Reply-To: <6DF138FB-E730-477A-A992-8FE1944DDE94@exonetric.com> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 20:24:28 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Mark Blackman Cc: Hackers freeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 074488E48D X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mozolevsky@gmail.com designates 209.85.167.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mozolevsky@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hybrid-lab.co.uk]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[177.167.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.893,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; IP_SCORE(-1.10)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.78), asn: 15169(-1.64), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2019 20:25:08 -0000 On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 20:18, Mark Blackman wrote: > > > On 3 Jan 2019, at 16:32, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > > > On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 16:26, Enji Cooper wrote: > > > > > > > >> PS let=E2=80=99s call the discussion mostly closed and start working o= n prototypes instead of beating a dead horse further. > > > > > > That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed* > > through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said > > earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a > > resounding NO, save for bloat. > > Technically, I thought it was clear what Rust adds and that is =E2=80=9Cs= afety=E2=80=9D, the cost of that =E2=80=9Csafety=E2=80=9D and the comprehen= siveness of that =E2=80=9Csafety=E2=80=9D are debatable, > but the proposed benefit seemed pretty clear to me And by what metric is that "safety" measured, how does one measure "safety" objectively? To me, that sounds like a techie version of virtue-signalling... Even the Rust-clan seem to be rather confused about it: https://doc.rust-lang.org/nomicon/meet-safe-and-unsafe.html Btw, Java is "safe" too, and it's been around for *much* longer! --=20 Igor M.