Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:23:20 -0700 From: Studded <Studded@gorean.org> To: chuckr@picnic.mat.net, davids@webmaster.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c Message-ID: <373DAD88.4AC73869@gorean.org>
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Chuck Robey wrote: > > On Wed, 12 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > > The point is, while it's possible for someone who can't code to come up > > > with some great idea, it's seldom happened. > > > > Perhaps this is something unique to FreeBSD then. The vast > > majority of the good product ideas I have ever heard came from > > 'mere' users of the product. > > It's possible our experiences differ. I'm mainly interested in OS work, > and I tend to ignore much user stuff. Could that be it? What you're ignoring is that even with an OS project there ARE people who use the stuff. If there weren't a use for what you're doing, it wouldn't have much value except as a mental exercise. If that's really what you're after, more power to you, but honestly it's not very helpful to the project. As for your other point about good ideas rarely coming from people who can't code, you are the poster child for why programmers should never get to decide on their own what they're going to work on. Without a clear design model to start and guide a project the best code in the world won't do you a bit of good. I happen to be an excellent software designer. I am also a pretty fair programmer (although C is not my specialty by any stretch). However my skill at software design comes in no small measure from the fact that I am not limited by "what can be done," at least not by the limited model of what the "programmers" THINK can be done, and therefore are not willing to work beyond. In fact, I will go a whole step further. I got involved with FreeBSD 3 years ago, entirely as a result of my activities on the DALnet IRC network. At that time I couldn't write a single line of C, but I had several ideas that I thought would improve FreeBSD. Three years later I've been able to implement many of those ideas, either because I learned how to code them myself, or because through discussing the ideas with people who CAN write the code they agreed that my ideas were worth their energy and they got done. Now, were my ideas BAD when I couldn't code them, and magically they turned good when I (or someone else) DID write the code? > > I'm not saying you have to cater to people. I'm not saying you > > have to be helpful. I'm saying don't be positively unhelpful and > > dishonest. And "If you think that's such a good idea, why don't you > > code it?" is sarcastic and dishonest. > > Why do you think I owe you code work? If I want to do something, and I > CAN do it, an dyou want to do something else, and you CAN'T do it, it > seems to me to be pretty clear, who is going to get priority. No one is holding a gun to your head. No one is going to, but that's not what this discussion is about. If you are actually arrogant enough to believe that you know everything about everything having to do with freebsd and therefore won't benefit from someone else's ideas on a subject, I say more power to you. However, I have no idea where you drew the connection that says that if I have an idea that I'm somehow asking you to do the work for me. If an idea is good, it's good, no matter whether I can code it or not. At the same time, a good idea doesn't encumber you with a responsibility any more than a bad one does. Your argument has no logic. > > I'm the Director of Coding for the DALnet IRC Network, and I > > made a rule for our coding list -- if you ever say "if that's such > > an idea, why don't you code it?" in the middle of a debate over the > > merits of a feature, you lose your posting privileges. And I'm as > > tired of bad ideas coming from people who can't code as anyone. I > > even don't mind "that's a bad idea, but you wouldn't be able to > > understand why." At least, it's honest. > > Yes, but you're not running a develop-driven open source free coding > project. As a matter of fact, yes we are. All of our coding work is volunteer. David just happens to also be employed as a professional programmer in another context. As a matter of fact, I have quite a lot of experience in trying to persuade volunteer programmers that something which needs doing is worth their time to do. "You can code whatever you want, but if you code 'X' it will get committed" is actually quite a persuasive argument, but only to a certain extent. We have a lot of "good ideas" in the hopper for DALnet which are waiting for someone to come along and code, but that doesn't make them bad ideas. It just makes them unimplemented good ones. > Your viewpoint is different. There is no one person in your > position, to hand down fiats. Again, on DALnet David IS the person who issues the fiats. :) But there is really no way for you to have known that, and it isn't part of the central argument so don't sweat that. The other thing that you're missing entirely is the "Don't bother us if you can't code it yourself" argument serves *only* to piss people off. It doesn't achieve any positive goal, the only possible thing it can do is make you feel a little better. There are a LOT of things that people who want to contribute to the project can do which don't involve a single line of C code. Not to mention that there are a lot of people like me who have experience in software design who could provide valuable feedback on "the big picture" which would be of tremendous benefit to the project, but if all ideas that don't come from programmers are rejected, why should we bother? Quite frankly, if you are ever tempted to respond with "shut up if you can't code it yourself," just don't. You're not helping anyone, and in fact in all likelihood you're probably making things worse. Thanks, Doug Chief Operations Officer, DALnet Internet Relay Chat network To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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