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Date:      Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:01:07 -0600
From:      Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
To:        Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Cc:        imp@village.org, andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk, brian@awfulhak.demon.co.uk, brian@utell.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Backspace = ^H
Message-ID:  <19970326170106.52908@right.PCS>
In-Reply-To: <199703262213.PAA28870@phaeton.artisoft.com>; from Terry Lambert on Mar 03, 1997 at 03:13:36PM -0700
References:  <19970326103943.36190@right.PCS> <199703262213.PAA28870@phaeton.artisoft.com>

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On Mar 03, 1997 at 03:13:36PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > I agree.  I have a whole gaggle of real vt420s and vt220s around here
> > (they are what we use on the sales floors) and when you press the "<X|" 
> > key on these things, you will get a "^?" character.
> > 
> > This happens to be hardcoded into lots of our stupid Oracle Forms too.
> > 
> > So "^H" does _NOT_ do the right thing here, ASCII charts, and Terry's rants
> > nonwithstanding.  Changing the defaults will just break everything again.
>
> This is an idiotic premise.

Why, thank you.  I agree too that it _is_ idiotic.  
(The behavior, not the premise, that is)


> You have VT420's and VT220's?  Then your /etc/ttys line for the port
> on which the device lives should look like:

/etc/ttys?  The devices are connected via a network.  No serial ports here.

[.. munch ..]

> Then the tset will set the user's erase correctly; from the tset man
> page:
 
Huh.  From the termserver, everything looks like a vt100.  (Or whatever the
hell default you picked).  No way to differentiate vt420's, vt220's, DG210's,
xterms, wyse50's or whatever.  Yes, we do ask the user what terminal they
use on login, thankyouverymuch.

> In order, tset will (according to /usr/src/usr.bin/tset/set.c):

[ explanation of how termcap entries work, munched ]

This quite assumes that the application is actually using 'kb'.  In most 
cases, this isn't true.  The application is using '^h', or '^?', which
has been hardcoded into the application.  Take a look at netscape, for
example.  It ignores your stty erase or termcap setting.  Same w/emacs.
Same w/oracle.


> It seems that all that is troubling you is that your termcap is not
> set up correctly and/or you are not using tset on login like you
> are supposed to.

You would be wrong.  I've lost too much time hacking termcap to want to
even think about looking at it again, for this particular issue.


> PS: if having correct settings bothers your Oracle forms, I'd look
> to Oracle's possibly wanting "kb" or "kD".  Type "man 5 termcap"
> for additional details.

Oracle and termcap?  Bwahahahah.....  Oracle don't use termcap.  Oracle
don't use terminfo.  Oracle use _OWN_ term format.  Oracle smart!  NOT.

 
> If your termcap is correct and it's not obeying it, use pcvt, or
> change your cons25 keymap in an /etc/rc.* and specify a modified
> termcap entry for the cons25 to make Orcale happy.  Then contact

What do you think we're doing now?


> Oracle support and get them to fix their product (the suggested
> workaround will continue to function after you obtain corrected
> product).

Try this, and you will get to listen to Oracle tell you that *you* are
doing the wrong thing.

Now, don't get me completely wrong, I can understand how having BS=0x7f
may be the 'wrong' thing to do, from a purists' point of view.  But trying
to change application behavior (like emacs use of ^H, which is what got
me into this thread) is fighting a losing battle.
--
Jonathan



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