From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu May 28 14:47:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465B82F4358 for ; Thu, 28 May 2020 14:47:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49XrBk0XTcz4kdp for ; Thu, 28 May 2020 14:47:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.95.28]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MI5YH-1jpdfx064d-00F8GW; Thu, 28 May 2020 16:47:06 +0200 Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 16:47:05 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert Message-Id: <20200528164705.278f3983.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <0e7aa839-eecf-37f7-4498-4ecc73f44689@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <20200527203627.2c9faae5@archlinux> <21722039-a01f-37d3-e035-6be2950485e2@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200528022232.662100a3@archlinux> <0e7aa839-eecf-37f7-4498-4ecc73f44689@kicp.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:t4JlXR9YYW/hUfcBMcpDp+jC7MwhhUfVUi5ULclP7rIgiy/nTZk fUotxquaBX3hZEk7ThTxV7RoZG21dEdcdNXeASgV6m0w3hf5gDdGbUeLJYA1j7KxbSLA4Dt zwX5vSuTbsizr+8hC2xnahmX3CwkfSlBuWGsVivPV14anF2kZZvhOkIR7o9Tt9JTM/gwaoQ ozPbEv6/mVUidhO6KNalg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:z61DGec9rgs=:cE8wFaQMZiqcVr/6T90kxi kHhcOh4nVOsA0c0B0SAW0X1Au0XB4XVsD9s9fHONugTs1qn3c3wp1wLE7wIsEqTSrGc/8bY27 ZmzWiTDJfqbri7a+pDXln7pjvkbIz9bHCAJG3nIXr/huJ0xjT3UzrgN21r9V3PA3DHW8n0nRq DNTrqVSb4faw8f6m7tcK5wyValtjFeFHvNYyAGH5Po4IdcrTRV1wrSn2iTjO6ztGs/k8ahXPg nTYU8YQMfPfsx1V8r8P9XKfyUZ9igNsDonU0Oc56PGHSYwsAXHThHYpsV64eVfZpObAJb+w64 VluIC3N5Q46OjLmm/JKpMM2jCiPWil8Q2KP8tkjQQLjpa4lZlmGuENbrlm0YUlFc4NdAVQy3l KvJops3HHvoUBBAY3VjiGXAUNMPSI9TEuVfDZr+7Nve/mA3GWQ4oJ0CMPKXxKT5NSMfCYroW6 mcsef4TQjY25axH/c9HwmtlThCCorQaYQ31SXYQLzUCiLH8gPTOGXQ9c2tsSKnhSN/0MVGbQP /iOz0iiCqqHwpJnMZPcDKcJlY5pqY6PfKYYJIptrKE0kh7pBGYYD3x/ZAG1EMbrOKOUoLiyrX rLuDAk4Q6UPlr2BSZmGqF+xAqiu1g12yFDN/mmUhv5jec8bh52GxyWiX/qaXCJ4xW6KLv9txG TMP7tCp97TPcxOPoGAPuaWEffpMXvNiu4uceueepR165zDWTPTTLoT7xgeT7OjcYE2mKr6alP 8weLvv3Zp6vhadntsviWyCJLzRjKk/t588f5drJY9I2TaV23FxHG5goP0MNBe3T6wN/uQ7nXc 5GBuu3/5in4fG5v/42Ki/g9Hm1xScso7SnReSMIIkZgsZk9AGwttoeEfYo1G2IJWtnBVRzb X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49XrBk0XTcz4kdp X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.24) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.72 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.95.28:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.21)[-0.206]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.20)[0.203]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.32)[0.324]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 14:47:11 -0000 On Wed, 27 May 2020 20:22:04 -0500, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > Ralf, I fully agree with your very instructive presentation. There is > one single word you have used that upsets me. Nothing to do with your > point, it is just the word itself: "coders". The moment they invented > that name to replace the word "programmer" I felt like they purposefully > threw away all high level brain work programmers do and downgraded what > they do to something like just "writing computer code". That is exactly my impression. It looks like a separation of tasks: "This person here is a software architect, and his subordinates are software engineers. And here, down in the cellar, we have the coders..." - you get the idea. Historically, "programmer" meant _all_ stages of program development, from the "brain work" to "typing code into a machine", and of course all considerations in between. Today, we have words like "ninja" and "rockstar" for things that were probably normal programmers' abilities in the past. Coding is just a _part_ of programming, just as accounting is just a part of corporate book keeping. > Back then when > they were teaching us (not training, which would be showing trivial > repetitive skills, but teaching, which is developing the ability to > create something new). The essential difference is that teaching enables you to evolve from a certain point, enabling you to create something new by advancing from your foundations in knowledge and experience, whereas training, more or less, encourages you to repeat what others show you, to gain a certain excellence at "re-creation". This _might_ be sufficient in certain areas of software development, where copypasta is all you need, no understanding of the problem and its potential solutions... > Of course, terminology changed, and my memory may not afford me the same > way of putting it as my great teaches did... But now it probably is > clear why use of the word "coder" is less than adequately describing > what programmers actually do. My primary takeaway from university: "'Trial and error' is _not_ a programming concept!" As stupid or inappropriate as it might sound, it carries a certain truth: Sure, you can change your code so you don't get compiler errors, piece by piece, but as a real programmer, this is probably _not_ what you're going to do in order to solve a specific problem. "The program now outputs the monthly totals." "But those numbers are wrong!" "Can't be. The computer calculated them, so they must be right." > Unless it is just a bunch of "coders" who write code for some > programmer, or project manager... whatever. Just code, no use of brain, > task akin writing trivial speech for politician. "The compiler creates a binary, so what's your problem, d00d?!" :-) int x, y, sum; // x, y, and sum are integers (numbers) sum = x - y; // sum up x and y Yes, sure. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...