From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 17 23:49:23 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D98F10656D4 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 23:49:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.user@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-gy0-f182.google.com (mail-gy0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2599C8FC0A for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 23:49:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by gyg13 with SMTP id 13so1534849gyg.13 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.154.100 with SMTP id g64mr422234yhk.120.1300405762362; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (twdp-174-109-142-001.nc.res.rr.com [174.109.142.1]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a12sm1496552yhk.27.2011.03.17.16.49.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio (zeus [192.168.1.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: FreeBSD.user@scorpio.seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C0755E54833 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:49:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:48:58 -0400 From: Jerry To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110317194858.61c4a03b@scorpio> In-Reply-To: <20110317223637.GA15933@guilt.hydra> References: <20110317144200.GA28942@takino.org> <20110317194852.GA15133@guilt.hydra> <20110317173557.131dddd5@scorpio> <20110317223637.GA15933@guilt.hydra> Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.8 (GTK+ 2.22.1; amd64-portbld-freebsd8.2) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAJFBMVEUeH4oAAI3//v8LDHmw s8gyNZ/b3ej7+vn+/v////+PjIc8Plaj/TnQAAACNElEQVQ4jaXUvW/aQBQAcFtKGZLFT+YY 3D1SR9SKoRMncE3IggU4kicGi1JYOgQwyYrgnLlSzhsoNkTuVJEp+ef6ztiAoV3aJ+QPfufn s987S/5fQvoXYPjztmfc514Ks+5JfGUCfrzt4+VabF+jwEV4DGEXN8N4p16sPLxHX07/V3qX yfF5D2H6K4V8j9NkyAphvkjBembD5PDFk3zeTzP1jcksyaV9w+d4ELmUoOp8N2p8uQVyhTAT uawnKNH2mie5lJp48mscUcbJUvg0mR6APwAoye9AMyWozY4gAh0vcxa5FJ4TKCuODESWtfkB 8AEQSupUXNIYH8FSC2w8X3eMBNbbVJpJ7MgECO5yJ9DUEWCYkzNAlsRsgwLQ1GkWqELbkDOh 1bUzoHagYkNh9MXlK/MQoA42gTxz2bhPM2DJedm8MZx6cNfJgEZJ5cmwPp5FZ/Ye8O2qTrFV dgOrHkZRBoheJiGrRquwAhnQ6GeTePPerWVmQelAQ5lwNqtvQd2lcooAV74/zR1BIRS19fy5 ru+B/8ReW9pYKMPjt609zDaitHHTGOO+Zu7gHvsKE7XbeE1QVuJXomIFuZgUJdXQdhpqEELc /e8RLjfi+cQ01yMdWot8UcCVxEWHEkcUrsDGuhaIEoM9kfgAR6jxHcmEV7tNURAl8KTHN9iF McKGFHGO62O62UMpbmlVuogQ7ndL8zXCiLeBy3xpfrqaXS/+AHDG4o8AvhuPeezD/3xL/hy/ Adjlg2odglF2AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/nLIZVFJ=p3_hDx1nQ1kP45a"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Subject: Re: HAL must die! X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: FreeBSD List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 23:49:23 -0000 --Sig_/nLIZVFJ=p3_hDx1nQ1kP45a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:36:37 -0600 Chad Perrin articulated: > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 05:35:57PM -0400, Jerry wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:48:52 -0600 > > Chad Perrin articulated: > >=20 > > > I blame Microsoft, GNU, and Canonical for this trend, mostly. > >=20 > > Chad, I believe I stand on firm ground when I state that you would > > blame Microsoft if the sun didn't come up tomorrow. You obviously > > must have a life time membership to "Slashdot". >=20 > I would not blame Microsoft if the sun doesn't come up tomorrow. I > probably should have included Apple in my list, and in fact in this > particular case I'm skeptical that Microsoft is even as much to blame > for feeding this trend as Apple, at least in the cases of iOS and > MacOS "classic" (though MacOS X does mitigate this corporate impulse > a little bit). >=20 > Every membership at Slashdot is lifetime, as far as I'm aware. If you > create an account there, I don't think they delete it unless you do > something really egregious to annoy the people who admin the site. > That said, I've made comments to maybe two or three discussions at > Slashdot in my life, I've only submitted one story there ever (and it > wasn't accepted), and I have long since forgotten my login > credentials for the site because I haven't visited it in years. >=20 > You don't seem to stand on such firm ground, after all. Are you sure > you're not thinking of some other Chad? Maybe you saw something aobut > Rubyist and author Chad Fowler encouraging people to join a robots.txt > fueled boycott of Microsoft's search engine. There's some crossover > there, given I'm a Rubyist and an author (of a somewhat different, but > related, variety) as well, though I never joined the robots.txt > boycott. >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > Microsoft creates programs, utilities, etc. for Microsoft. With very > > few exceptions, it does not actively create programming for a > > non-windows theater. It certainly never created any programming for > > *nix systems that deal with hardware discovery & configuration. > > Microsoft is not your problem. The people writing software, drivers, > > what have you for *.nix & *.BSD are your problem. >=20 > Microsoft encourages, employs, and supports a software design > philosophy that prioritizes user obsequious operation over user > enabling functionality, regardless of whether any of Microsoft's > offerings are compatible with any computing platforms outside of what > Microsoft itself produces. By producing and marketing software that > proceeds from that philosophy, organizations like Apple, Canonical, > GNU, and Microsoft help push it into the mainstream within their > particular market niches, where each of them is significantly > influential. >=20 > The people writing software, drivers, "what have you" for Unix-like > OSes (including me) are to some extent influenced by these things. > Despite the fact that Microsoft is not really in the Unixy markets > very much, it has a disproportionately large effect on those markets > because its flagship platform is so widely used by people who develop > software, even when they are developing it for other platforms. >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > Contrary to whatever you may think, the over whelming majority of > > users want a system that just works. They don't want to spend > > hours/days or more just tying to get a printer or sound card to > > work. They would rather leave that to people like you who have time > > to waste. Those of us on the clock don't have the luxury of > > fiddling with a piece of hardware when we could be doing something > > productive. >=20 > I never said that offering automatic configuration is bad. I think > it's great, as long as it doesn't hinder, override, obviate, or even > prohibit user attempts to specify custom configuration. If you think > I was saying nothing should ever be done automatically, you were not > reading very closely. What I was saying was that trying to do things > automatically in such a way that it *breaks* the ability to engage in > direct customization when such is desired is a bad way to automate > such things. >=20 > It's great if sound "just works". It's not so great if some software > tries to make sound "just work" and fails, then prevents the user from > fixing it, when fixing it was trivially easy before that software was > integrated into the standard distribution of the system. >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > Two statements in your post stand out as being totally bizarre. > >=20 > > 1) > > People design software meant to eliminate the configuration and > > management hassle from the end user, but it doesn't always work > > perfectly. > > > >=20 > > OK, what software always works correctly? That never fails, hangs, > > or just blows up. Deal with it, it is a fact of life. Ask any of a > > number of users who have tried to get OpenOffice to work as > > designed the first time; or even ever. >=20 > I never said any software "always works correctly". There actually is > some software that does so, I'm sure -- but I was not saying that it > was reasonable to excoriate the developers for writing the software in > question in this case because there are bugs or limitations in the > software's operation. That statement was not meant to be taken in a > vacuum; it is the set-up for the following statement, and I believe > that the fact you have taken it as a stand-alone comment conveying > some critical judgment that was not in fact evident in my phrasing is > an indication that you really are not interested in having a > reasonable conversation. Indications, conversely, seem to suggest > that you will take anything I say in the worst possible light, even > inventing unreasonable interpretations of my words to support your > belief that I'm a bad person for saying something unflattering about > Microsoft. >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > 2) > > Unfortunately, it so zealously attempts to guess what the > > user wants that it effectively *disallows* easy fixes when the user > > discovers that something needs to be "fixed". > > > >=20 > > Of course your statement is sans any documented proof, which in > > itself is not news worthy; however, who's specific configuration > > should the designers of said software use for a template? I know, > > yours, right? It is obvious that the designers are attempting to > > guess what the user whats. Obviously, they are not going to guess > > right 100% of the time. It is just the nature of the beast. Are you > > trying to say that you cannot manually change a configuration file? > > By the way, it will only get worse as no one can come to an > > agreement on one unified replacement for HAL. Nothing like > > fragmentation to make things work better. I believe that XFCE has > > dropped all support for HAL too. Is that Microsoft's fault too? >=20 > This is not the six o'clock news. My statement does not need to be > "newsworthy". It is a simple statement of my perspective and > experience. If you have some kind of evidence or reasoned argument to > the contrary, please share it; I'll be happy to consider it and, if I > find it worthy, change my perspective accordingly. Simply accusing > me of being some kind of anti-Microsoft zealot based on the turning > of the tides and astrology (or whatever motivation you falsely apply > to my statements) does not do much to convince me I'm wrong, though > -- nor does pointing out that I have not cited scientific studies > when making a simple observation based on my own experience. >=20 > In any case, you seem to have completely missed my point here. My > point is not that anyone should design software to enforce the > configuration that works best for me, specifically. Rather, my point > is that software developers should probably consider how easy it is > to make things right when their software breaks. >=20 > Of course I can manually change a configuration file, but I think you > completely overlooked my statements about how things should really be > easier than a lot of current autoconfig software makes it when the > autoconfig needs to be overridden. >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > I have two Linksys Wireless-N PCI cards in front of me that work > > fine on a Windows platform. FreeBSD doesn't even have a driver for > > them, thereby rendering them useless. I suppose that is Microsoft's > > fault too. >=20 > No, not really. It's more the fault of the hardware manufacturer. Chad, up until this point I had taken your response seriously. In fact, I thought it was well presented. Then, you went and blew it. You fell into that trap that is all to prevalent in the open-source community, and especially odious with the *BSDs. That being the "blame the manufacturer" banner. If at first it doesn't work, blame the manufacturer. Strangely enough, those two Wireless-N cards work in Windows from at least XP forward (no surprise there), but they also work with Ubuntu from what I have read on their forums. I also believe that Linux supports the chip, although I don't have the time or ambition to check it out right now. I do remember checking over a year ago, and a driver was suppose to be available. BSD is notorious for bringing up the rear with its offerings of drivers. It is just easier to blame someone else I suppose. I know you are now going say that the hardware manufacturer should be responsible for the driver. I totally disagree. There is no way that a manufacturer can reasonably be expected to product a driver for the extremely fragmented open-source community. Look how much trouble nVidia had getting 64 bit drivers into FreeBSD. You cannot even get the community to agree on a replacement for HAL. They aim for the biggest target, linux and basically leave the rest to their own devices. You can blame the open-source community in general and *BSD in particular for that problem. Even if they did come to some consensus, they would end up in a pissing contest over the license. Go ahead, now you can blame Microsoft, Apple, GNU, the man in the moon, and who knows who else for that problem too. > I don't know why you have such a problem with me that you are > unwilling to read my words as written, and just make up your own > unreasonable interpretations and misrepresentations instead, but it > isn't very amusing. I wasn't trying to be amusing. Like I previously stated, I thought your response was fine, until you stated preaching the company gospel. --=20 Jerry =E2=9C=8C FreeBSD.user@seibercom.net Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __________________________________________________________________ The Wright Brothers weren't the first to fly. They were just the first not to crash. --Sig_/nLIZVFJ=p3_hDx1nQ1kP45a Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNgp3/AAoJEHdwsA8xwKhFZxsIAMlkF33s85BQC/iBL3wcGA9t DV07LmpLG0u+OdUECKV/wJHZlrvubaglQIkZhd4r0o0Wf/adukKWP5NZ/Yn42O8O k88tCKYM9JyhLfeKHNET4I6Slx6HNfDL3RkWzWOxgw4bGNPxAb973jqp4HmCX8Zp IXc/Lhlbpk3P4Vv700juHk6Yjb+TUPUJt3xpYP++tdLy+rVYq2Kha6HQ/zC4j9lm yCOoC6LOly5W6Jxrh9e8gHGYLWwPGnnin7A376ZqXD07aq3G/D9aso3TazbuvL3T U5MR/MOhgUXR0rzn3Gn0/NF11Lr5IjhDbvqsZSBex9zvw6MVOr1LfVTbduI4wB0= =M3ZY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/nLIZVFJ=p3_hDx1nQ1kP45a--