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Date:      Sat, 02 Aug 1997 17:29:34 -0700
From:      "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
To:        David Nugent <davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au>
Cc:        current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued 
Message-ID:  <17153.870568174@time.cdrom.com>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 07:33:39 %2B1000." <199708022133.HAA14498@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> 

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[ I'm getting REALLY TIRED of editing your cc lines - either get that
straight or leave this discussion.  Redirected to -current for what
is hopefully the last time ]

> The ports system, in spite of its faults and shortfalls, *works*,
> and works extremely well, mainly because of the efforts of porters

But it doesn't work in a stand-alone environment.  I wish people would
stop assuming that everyone in the world has a T1 to their desks or a
CDROM full of convenient tarballs.  It's just not the case and arguing
that ports is a complete replacement for /usr/src is just naive in the
extreme.  I've said it before and I'll say it again - ports would make
a fine mechanism for this IF IT WERE IMPROVED to deal with those sorts
of "where are my sources?" issues, but that's not the case today.

> >stuff (yes perl fans, there are many out there who consider your
> >favorite utility language an evil, bloated monster which should not be
> >bundled with FreeBSD at all).  What we have now is a rough state of
> 
> Surely, you're not suggesting that just because something is
> in not in the FreeBSD base system that it is "evil"? Oh come on,
> this is such a childish attitude I can't believe I'm hearing it.

Then you need to get the wax out of your ears because what you're
hearing is not what I said. :-) Perl is bloated and evil because it is
a large, ugly piece of software and that's all I meant by this -
whether it's part of src or ports bears no relation at all to its
evilness, and I merely cited it as an example of something else that
people are crying for to leave /usr/src.

> The question is not how large a package is, it is how useful it
> is in the base distribution - how dependant upon it a FreeBSD
> system is in installation and setup, and how integrated it is

Yes yes yes, we know all this.  But by that same token, and what you
perhaps fail to realize, is that "useful" is a highly subjective term
and there's MUCH MORE besides TCL in /usr/src which fits the
description of "not useful" and should be slated for the executioner's
axe.  What annoys me are the folks, of which you are apparently one
of, who feel that we can all go back to sleep safely once the giant is
slain, be that particular giant perl or TCL.  In reality, they're
simply symptoms of a greater maliase and I'd like to hear from those
who truly have constructive solutions to offer in dealing with this
ongoing problem.  Kill TCL and you've solved the problem for a day.
Kill our inflexible src mechanism and you've a more lasting solution,
but nobody wants to tackle the real problem while there are so many
more convenient peccadillos to flame about.  Bah.

				Jordan



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