Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 19:32:27 -0500 From: Kyle Evans <kevans@freebsd.org> To: Devin Teske <dteske@freebsd.org> Cc: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>, src-committers <src-committers@freebsd.org>, svn-src-all@freebsd.org, svn-src-head@freebsd.org Subject: Re: svn commit: r334939 - head/stand/lua Message-ID: <CACNAnaHLaMUTRcHcuj=chy5OSRa5Q-35ohJwG9g-nk5R9ryrug@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <B2A41A7C-F18B-44B4-A75C-FE42E4A6D128@FreeBSD.org> References: <201806110132.w5B1WI5d094546@repo.freebsd.org> <E6FA26B8-63CF-4927-AE20-644D985BACD8@freebsd.org> <CANCZdfrtK_Cn1N2RE=f5DS_UNLq6C493LUNwQoHvYX06noVZxg@mail.gmail.com> <344AA709-2DF7-405C-AB4D-4F0978834EA1@FreeBSD.org> <CANCZdfpDu4K0qdQt670px6VAsKM0a_pP4tbCtH2Vk0Ou80szzg@mail.gmail.com> <B2A41A7C-F18B-44B4-A75C-FE42E4A6D128@FreeBSD.org>
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On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Devin Teske <dteske@freebsd.org> wrote: > > On Jun 11, 2018, at 11:20 AM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Devin Teske <dteske@freebsd.org> wrote: >> >> >> On Jun 11, 2018, at 7:07 AM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Devin Teske <dteske@freebsd.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> > On Jun 10, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Kyle Evans <kevans@FreeBSD.org> wrote: >>> > >>> > Author: kevans >>> > Date: Mon Jun 11 01:32:18 2018 >>> > New Revision: 334939 >>> > URL: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/changeset/base/334939 >>> > >>> > Log: >>> > lualoader: Allow brand-*.lua for adding new brands >>> > >>> > dteske@, I believe, had originally pointed out that lualoader failed >>> > to >>> > allow logo-*.lua for new logos to be added. When correcting this >>> > mistake, I >>> > failed to do the same for brands. >>> > >>> >>> You=E2=80=99re doing an amazing job, Kyle. >>> >>> I continually see nothing but genuine effort toward feature parity whic= h >>> makes me think one day I can pass the reigns. >>> >>> Yeah, I will always love Forth. It will always hold a special place in = my >>> heart as that whacky language that simultaneously exudes great power wh= ile >>> also having the image ability to induce vomiting =F0=9F=A4=AE by the un= initiated. >>> >>> However, all that being said, I=E2=80=99d actually like to keep the Fic= l boot >>> stuff as an option through to 14.0 and here is why ... >>> >>> Last year we were looking to update from ficl3 to ficl4. That may not >>> sound too exciting to most folks, but most folks don=E2=80=99t know the= power that >>> ficl4 brings =E2=80=94 like the capability to use full networking in th= e loader! Can >>> lua do that? How cool would it be to be able to communicate with the ne= twork >>> from the loader before the kernel is even loaded into memory? I had a f= ew >>> hair-brained schemes left for Forth which might be exciting, lol >> >> >> The current boot loader can already communicate via NFS or TFTP today. >> Adding http would be easy, https would be harder due to crypto being hug= e >> and space being small (though bear ssl might be small enough). >> >> The last articulated plan in arch@ was that LUA will be default in 12, a= nd >> we plan to remove FORTH in 13. Last time I said it there in February, th= ere >> was only email agreeing that I could find. This matches the in-person >> consensus poll I took at BSDcan as well. I think it would take a very >> extraordinary set circumstance and severe problems with LUA to change th= ose >> plans. >> >> >> At BSD Can there was the boot working group where we discussed that an F= CP >> would be required to decide this. > > > In the working group you weren't listening and being rather combative and > demanding that I do stuff, > > > I think that's an unfair characterization of the situation, but it doesn'= t > matter -- that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. > > > > so I stopped talking. > > > Hopefully we can _start_ talking. As the principled author of this work, = I > want to have a say in its deprecation since I still maintain that body of > work. > > > It should not be taken as a sign of my consent, but more a sign of not > wanting to get into a yelling match in public on a topic I thought had be= en > settled months ago. > > > Nobody asked *me* about how I would like to see *my* work removed from th= e > tree. I think I should have a say. > > I think I've been pretty darn helpful in the process by providing > substantive and helpful feedback to not only Kyle but also on the GSoC > project etc. I've not stood in any ones way. For being so helpful, I woul= d > expect a level respect in this matter. > > > >> I raised my desires that I would like to be able to flip a knob in 13 an= d >> reboot between Ficl and Lua, back and forth. >> >> Give people a choice until we have done a "shake-out" through an entire >> major version. >> >> An honest-to-goodness procession would be, in my mind: >> >> 13: Has both; both are installed. End-user can boot back and forth betwe= en >> the two >> >> Problems that arise in one or the other are non-critical because there i= s >> always an "out" by running the other. >> >> 14: Has both but both are not installed. The installer media doesn't eve= n >> have it. You can't install the Forth booth stuff unless you twist a knob= in >> buildworld, optionally going down the path of generating release media w= hich >> has the Forth boot stuff. >> >> 15. It's removed from tree. You can't build Forth boot. Lua only. No >> looking back, no way to build it with Forth, to get Ficl you need to go = to >> ports. A Ficl with FreeBSD boot words no longer exists and is no longer >> maintained. All of bhyve userboot also therefore uses Lua. > > > That's way too long. 12 will have Lua by default, but you can build FORTH= if > you want has been the plan since February when I socialized this on arch@= . I > originally pitched coexistence, but there was little appetite for that. > > So I think a FCP discussed in arch@ is the right path forward. > > > We sat on the GSoC for years. Why all of a sudden do we need to ship this= in > less than 6 months? > > There are new features in Forth for 12 and they work and Lua has not caug= ht > up to them (e.g., Boot Environments in the loader menu) and you want to m= ake > Lua the default in 12? This doesn't make sense. I have no comments on the rest- this discussion should mostly occur on the FCP that will be drafted shortly. We added Boot Environment support months ago at this point, and also added some other cool feature like auto-detecting kernels in /boot/* to be presented in the kernel selector. > > The timeline I suggested is more amenable to actually crossing the finish > line with a fully-functional drop-in replacement. > -- > Devin
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