From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 04:09:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA06849 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:09:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA06803 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:08:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07943; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:08:26 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA03442; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:07:57 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980301130757.56972@follo.net> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:07:57 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Karl Denninger Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: help - make world fails References: <19980228233515.48898@mcs.net> <199803010540.QAA21068@cimlogic.com.au> <19980228234146.52327@mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980228234146.52327@mcs.net>; from Karl Denninger on Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 11:41:46PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 11:41:46PM -0600, Karl Denninger wrote: > I've seen enough commentary on the hackers and current lists to think that > perhaps its not a good idea to consider -current a stable piece of code > right now..... am I right in this? In particular, the place I usually run > into trouble is the NFS code and its stability. NFS w/Terry's patches should be fairly good now (but I don't run it harshly, so I really can't tell). Apart from build problems (which have usually been for minor things) and sporadic VM-problems (I'm not certain if all of these are fixed) -current seems to be fairly stable right now. The build problems haven't been due to major changes; these usually come from minor changes, and don't indicate -current's health too well. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 05:22:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12589 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:22:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.zip.com.au (root@mail.zip.com.au [203.12.97.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12478 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:22:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jp@zip.com.au) Received: from zip.com.au (blazer4.zip.com.au [203.62.150.68]) by mail.zip.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA11588; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:22:03 +1100 Message-ID: <34D76316.9404EE5B@zip.com.au> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 18:33:59 +0000 From: John Paul Lonie X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein CC: Joe Shevland , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /usr/src/release/sysinstall needs YOU. :-) References: <199801280040.AAA10165@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------msECADF57110CB2B9BFF22D3FE" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------msECADF57110CB2B9BFF22D3FE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alfred Perlstein wrote: > there's no point of a "pixel" graphical install for several reasons: > a) i don't think it is a good idea to limit this product to graphical > systems(i run a 586/133 with a mono card) > b) it should work over telnet for remote config. > c) by the time someone has X and java up and running why would they even > need it? :) > d) it should be small and not require so much disk space... > > maybe if it had an optional graphical front end that sorta immitated the > text interface for up and running systems.... that would be cool > HPUX has a nice admin utility called SAM which has a X front end and a txt front end ( in 11.00 they have added a java version) The best part is that you have the sam abilities from all the versions. This sort of system should be what we aim at. > as a side option beside the "niceness" of using java to code, why code it > in java? it will be for freebsd machines, running on x86 hardware (although > i hope some ports work out) using freebsd utilities to commit tasks... so > almost any lang you use will be portable to all versions of freebsd... Not all people only run FreeBSD. Portability and real world usability can only help FreeBSD in the long run. 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Hubbard" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A truly losing laptop for FreeBSD. References: <199801301238.XAA04311@word.smith.net.au> <199801302236.PAA29877@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms9B82022EE3A3723BAF329EBB" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms9B82022EE3A3723BAF329EBB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all. Warner Losh wrote: > In message <199801301238.XAA04311@word.smith.net.au> Mike Smith writes: > My libretto is plenty snappy. I get similar results to what Mike has > been seeing. The disk drive is a little slow, but not all that bad. > FreeBSD supports my beast, modulo the floppy drive, very very well. Even under linux which tends to have a wider range of device support does not support the floppy. PS writing this on one ;-) --------------ms9B82022EE3A3723BAF329EBB Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIKYwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIKVDCCClACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC CNEwggQbMIIDhKADAgECAhAVAfmgaBT9Xf36gSp9B2cWMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBAUAMGIxETAP BgNVBAcTCEludGVybmV0MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE0MDIGA1UECxMrVmVy aVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSAtIEluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlcjAeFw05NzEyMjgwMDAw MDBaFw05ODEyMjgyMzU5NTlaMIIBFzERMA8GA1UEBxMISW50ZXJuZXQxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZl cmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTQwMgYDVQQLEytWZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIC0gSW5kaXZpZHVh bCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvQ1BT IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk2MTMwMQYDVQQLEypEaWdpdGFsIElEIENs YXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZSBGdWxsIFNlcnZpY2UxGDAWBgNVBAMTD0pvaG4gUGF1bCBMb25p ZTEcMBoGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYNanBAemlwLmNvbS5hdTBcMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA0sAMEgC QQDL4ukxwBtMNyDuIjAgKHOEUKm2cZVMQvs1YnezLYwMsVC0UEToeC9O/dTYqWjX/pa3vivI BdxRPboDB0ORwOd3AgMBAAGjggFdMIIBWTAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMIGvBgNVHSAEgacwgDCABgtg hkgBhvhFAQcBATCAMCgGCCsGAQUFBwIBFhxodHRwczovL3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vQ1BT MGIGCCsGAQUFBwICMFYwFRYOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4wAwIBARo9VmVyaVNpZ24ncyBDUFMg aW5jb3JwLiBieSByZWZlcmVuY2UgbGlhYi4gbHRkLiAoYyk5NyBWZXJpU2lnbgAAAAAAADAR BglghkgBhvhCAQEEBAMCB4AwgYYGCmCGSAGG+EUBBgMEeBZ2ZDQ2NTJiZDYzZjIwNDcwMjky OTg3NjNjOWQyZjI3NTA2OWM3MzU5YmVkMWIwNTlkYTc1YmM0YmM5NzAxNzQ3ZGE1YzdmNDE0 MWJlYWRiMmJkMmU4OTIwNmFmNmJmOGQzMTE0OTlmYTFiZTRiZmFmM2VhNDU2NDANBgkqhkiG 9w0BAQQFAAOBgQBu4lY7GBlK9+vtxjcYPGG3/pZRk8OGf7t59HTQskgX2jrpF6RBg9nEXntM p00hfks4Dm/czV0BAjFvM9Wh7WBMpVNLypccyAjHLn4CWg3JW6CajDG4wY3sD2Ul2RGH2Xff hYBNtplRK8muEP3h5Xjx8GrPaR3uWyEh1s9O4XoR1DCCAnkwggHioAMCAQICEFIfNR3ycH4A K77KWYcE1TkwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlT aWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRp b24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk2MDYyNzAwMDAwMFoXDTk5MDYyNzIzNTk1OVowYjERMA8GA1UE BxMISW50ZXJuZXQxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTQwMgYDVQQLEytWZXJpU2ln biBDbGFzcyAxIENBIC0gSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUA A4GNADCBiQKBgQC2FKbPTdAFDdjKI9BvqrQpkmOOLPhvltcunXZLEbE2jVfJw/0cxrr+Hgi6 M8qV6r7jW80GqLd5HUQq7XPysVKDaBBwZJHXPmv5912dFEObbpdFmIFH0S3L3bty10w/cari QPJUObwW7s987LrbP2wqsxaxhhKdrpM01bjV0Pc+qQIDAQABozMwMTAPBgNVHRMECDAGAQH/ AgEBMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjARBglghkgBhvhCAQEEBAMCAQYwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQADgYEA wfr3AudXyhF1xpwM+it3T4dFFzvj0sHaD1g5jq6VmQOhqKE4/nmakxcLl4Y5x8poNGa7x4hF 9sgMBe6+lyXv4NRu5H+ddlzOfboUoq4Ln/tnW0ilZyWvGWSI9nLYKSeqNxJqsSivJ4MYZWyN 7UCeTcR4qIbs6SxQv6b5DduwpkowggIxMIIBmgIFAqQAAAEwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzEL MAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAx IFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk2MDEyOTAwMDAw MFoXDTk5MTIzMTIzNTk1OVowXzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJ bmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0 aG9yaXR5MIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDlGb9to1ZhLZlIcfZn3rmN67ee hoAKkQ76OCWvRoiC5XOooJskXQ0fzGVuDLDQVoQYh5oGmxChc9+0WDlrbsH2FdWoqD+qEgaN Max/sDTXjzRniAnNFBHiTkVWaR94AoDa3EeRKbs2yWNcxeDXLYd7obcysHswuiovMaruo2fa 2wIDAQABMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAgUAA4GBAFJzuppV3Nw/gn2wkJhiKoJMdgBuJT3VwglwVwEM D3cfGKH7HGAOoHU7SSFB/qdcLUxCSdP/KNiM6p3+yQfid4JTI95V885Ek/r6TL3KNvNbZrKe yPIMXl7UobQhCTPKO1n8ksI4/K3ZliTgLfqjKfUzaHhOtLyfaTXiqJiUczvEMYIBWjCCAVYC AQEwdjBiMREwDwYDVQQHEwhJbnRlcm5ldDEXMBUGA1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4xNDAy BgNVBAsTK1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEgQ0EgLSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXICEBUB +aBoFP1d/fqBKn0HZxYwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKB9MBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEw HAYJKoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTk4MDIwNDIxMDcyM1owHgYJKoZIhvcNAQkPMREwDzANBggqhkiG 9w0DAgIBKDAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUrA4SIhAndqf3+oYKxIqTn/XUFXgwDQYJKoZIhvcN AQEBBQAEQIuNfDYxC6dRXFkt+DdaoNaAwBVW8CJog6O/WREN0vWVyi6KFQgoIC7+0lb58rxg biZfMYtonWItqbuHJM2xZ1Q= --------------ms9B82022EE3A3723BAF329EBB-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 05:45:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14867 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:45:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA14862 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:45:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id OAA27858; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:15:12 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA11705; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:19:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980301131921.45593@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:19:21 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: Vinay Bannai Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Best" Fast Ethernet Card References: <199802271811.KAA00364@bubba.whistle.com> <199802280013.QAA04406@shell6.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199802280013.QAA04406@shell6.ba.best.com>; from Vinay Bannai on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 04:13:12PM -0800 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 04:13:12PM -0800, Vinay Bannai wrote: > > Yup. The ifnet device has a flag which indicates that it is capable of > doing checksum in the hardware and you set this flag in the mbufs and pass > it along. This is pretty usefule when computing checksumn in hardware for > transmits too. > > I know of atleast two protocol stack implementations (popular too) that > use these techniques... Which one ? Is it a secret ? ;-) -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 05:45:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14894 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:45:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA14883; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 05:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id OAA27863; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:15:17 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA02945; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:53:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980301135311.21538@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:53:11 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG, G Hasse Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: PicoBSD 0.3 is available! References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Andrzej Bialecki on Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 12:43:39PM +0100 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 12:43:39PM +0100, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > Hi! > > After lengthy period of fighting with memory-related issues, I am pleased > to announce the availability of PicoBSD 0.3 - one floppy version of > FreeBSD 3.0. There are basically two variants of it: one for dialup > access, and one router-like. You can get more info, and download it at: > > http://www.freebsd.org/~abial Sounds interesting ;-) -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 06:19:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17310 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 06:19:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA17299 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 06:19:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199803011419.GAA17299@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA061701973; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:19:33 +1100 From: Darren Reed Subject: boot manager w/ freebsd To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:19:32 +1100 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The boot manager used with freebsd 2.2.x usually presents one with a menu of F-keys for each partition which can be booted from. When there are two disks on the system, there'll be an extra to goto the second disk and back again. When there are three disks on the system, you can only boot from the first (no option to goto the second or third disk is given). Is this fixable ? FWIW, I've found that the boot manager so installed has been the most reliable (for me) with multibooting varios operating systems. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 07:31:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22671 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:31:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA22641; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:31:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02458; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:31:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803011531.KAA02458@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: help - make world fails In-Reply-To: <19980301025533.18356@emu.sourcee.com> from Norman C Rice at "Mar 1, 98 02:55:33 am" To: nrice@emu.sourcee.com (Norman C Rice) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:31:21 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, karl@mcs.net, jb@cimlogic.com.au, joe@via.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Norman C Rice said: > > > > I think that the system is very close to stable again, with the > > NFS caveat. Once I can solve the (very reproduceable) problem, > > I will be much happier with NFS. There are also some outstanding > > bugfixes for NFS, which I am working with in my local tree... > > Would any of those outstanding ``bug fixes'' resolve the issue with > NFS client freezing the system when the server is non-responsive? > Not yet. I am working on things that are *more* severe than that right now. Not discounting the above problem though as not being severe. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 07:43:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24697 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:43:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA24684 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:43:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id JAA02082; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:42:59 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id JAA07063; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:42:58 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980301094258.03567@mcs.net> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:42:58 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: Studded Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: help - make world fails References: <19980228233515.48898@mcs.net> <199803010540.QAA21068@cimlogic.com.au> <19980228234146.52327@mcs.net> <34F8FBE6.8DE1C457@san.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <34F8FBE6.8DE1C457@san.rr.com>; from Studded on Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 10:10:46PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 10:10:46PM -0800, Studded wrote: > Karl Denninger wrote: > > > I'm still trying to find out where -CURRENT is right now in terms of > > stability and what does/doesn't work. As a result this is pretty germane to > > me at the moment, but I don't have commit access and don't understand why > > those changes were made anyway (which means I wouldn't back them out without > > knowing). > > You can read the CVS logs without commit access. Check out the CVS > repository link on http://www.freebsd.org/support.html. I'm on the commit mailing list, and I can always look at the deltas :-) That doesn't mean that I understand the full reason for a particular change. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 07:45:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25454 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:45:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA25412 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:45:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id JAA02159; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:45:30 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id JAA07174; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:45:30 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980301094530.23053@mcs.net> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:45:30 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: Terry Lambert Cc: jb@cimlogic.com.au, joe@via.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: help - make world fails References: <19980228234146.52327@mcs.net> <199803010710.AAA21269@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199803010710.AAA21269@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 07:10:36AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 07:10:36AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I've seen enough commentary on the hackers and current lists to think that > > perhaps its not a good idea to consider -current a stable piece of code > > right now..... am I right in this? In particular, the place I usually run > > into trouble is the NFS code and its stability. > > Please clarify here. You mean NFS *client*, right? I've been getting > pretty deeply into this code lately, and it's the *client* that freezes > up here... > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org So you're saying the NFS *SERVER* Code is completely stable right now? :-) (Actually, both are germane to me). -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 07:48:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26360 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:48:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26345; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:48:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id JAA02227; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:48:14 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id JAA07192; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:48:14 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980301094814.32295@mcs.net> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:48:14 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: jb@cimlogic.com.au, joe@via.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: help - make world fails References: <19980228234146.52327@mcs.net> <199803010741.CAA01681@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199803010741.CAA01681@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 02:41:21AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 02:41:21AM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > Karl Denninger said: > > > > I'm still trying to find out where -CURRENT is right now in terms of > > stability and what does/doesn't work. As a result this is pretty germane to > > me at the moment, but I don't have commit access and don't understand why > > those changes were made anyway (which means I wouldn't back them out without > > knowing). > > > I am NOT super-happy with NFS yet. I have a regression and performance > test suite that I run before committing VM code (believe it or not), and > NFS doesn't pass a critical test (paging.) It panics the system with > an infamous biodone error, and I will try to track it down tomorrow. > > I am freezing the current state of my VM work, except for bugfixes, > and perhaps some threads or AIO things (which are not part of the > core system.) Hopefully, we will be stable (with some anecdotal > evidence) soon, and I want to track (watch) the VFS layering changes > carefully. All of the above will fill my available time. > > I think that the system is very close to stable again, with the > NFS caveat. Once I can solve the (very reproduceable) problem, > I will be much happier with NFS. There are also some outstanding That's what I thought the state of things was.... This is NFS on the client side, right? Do you know of any problems with NFS on the *server* side? Please keep the lists posted on what you find and fix - the commit logs come across in volume, and sometimes I miss an important one. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 07:56:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27884 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:56:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27806; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:55:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02569; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:55:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803011555.KAA02569@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: help - make world fails In-Reply-To: <19980301094814.32295@mcs.net> from Karl Denninger at "Mar 1, 98 09:48:14 am" To: karl@mcs.net (Karl Denninger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:55:49 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, jb@cimlogic.com.au, joe@via.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Karl Denninger said: > > > That's what I thought the state of things was.... This is NFS on the client > side, right? > Yes. > > Do you know of any problems with NFS on the *server* side? > Not that I know of (other than localhost filesystems.) > > Please keep the lists posted on what you find and fix - the commit logs come > across in volume, and sometimes I miss an important one. > Okay. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 07:56:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27996 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:56:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27941 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:56:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id JAA02386; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:56:17 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id JAA07531; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:56:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980301095616.35833@mcs.net> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:56:16 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: Eivind Eklund Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: help - make world fails References: <19980228233515.48898@mcs.net> <199803010540.QAA21068@cimlogic.com.au> <19980228234146.52327@mcs.net> <19980301130757.56972@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <19980301130757.56972@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:07:57PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:07:57PM +0100, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 11:41:46PM -0600, Karl Denninger wrote: > > I've seen enough commentary on the hackers and current lists to think that > > perhaps its not a good idea to consider -current a stable piece of code > > right now..... am I right in this? In particular, the place I usually run > > into trouble is the NFS code and its stability. > > NFS w/Terry's patches should be fairly good now (but I don't run it harshly, > so I really can't tell). > > Apart from build problems (which have usually been for minor things) and > sporadic VM-problems (I'm not certain if all of these are fixed) -current > seems to be fairly stable right now. The build problems haven't been due to > major changes; these usually come from minor changes, and don't indicate > -current's health too well. > > Eivind. Well, that's not good enough. Terry's patches haven't been committed, and there has to be a reason for that. I HATE off-stream things. I have to deal with some of them all the time, because we have some local ones (to do our funny clustering and kernel-based permission masking, to name two). That's enough of a pain in the ass to track across multiple revisions. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 07:59:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28740 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:59:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hotmail.com (f61.hotmail.com [207.82.250.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA28679 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:59:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from the_reman@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 14695 invoked by uid 0); 1 Mar 1998 15:58:29 -0000 Message-ID: <19980301155829.14694.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.77.158.100 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 01 Mar 1998 07:58:26 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.77.158.100] From: "Chris Day" To: l.rizzo@iet.unipi.it Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, the_reman@hotmail.com Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 02:58:26 EST Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Luigi (and others), I have a tiny problem getting my soundcard to work under FreeBSD. Yes, it is the infamous OPTi 82C931. I actually have a proper OPTi soundcard, so I thought, stupidly, that it might be easy to get it to work. Anyway, I installed pnp971020.tgz source patched the files, then installed the snd980215.tgz source and patched the files. Then I included various bits, compiled, then no matter what I tried it didn't work. This is sound part of my kernel config file - GENERIC >controller pnp0 >device pcm0 at isa? port 0x530 tty irq 10 drq 1 flags 0x10 >vector pcmintr >device pcm1 at isa? port 0x220 tty irq 5 drq 1 vector pcmintr The reason I put in two pcm devices was just in case it detected and attached the OPTi in MSS or SB Pro mode. I was hacking the kernel to see if I could get the sound card operating, but it wasn't until I found out that it had to be configured with the PnP registers that I realized that I couldn't do it via the non-PnP drivers within the original /sys/i386/isa/snd directory. Finally the last thing I did was go into the config and enter this PnP line. >OPTi931: PnP id 0x3109143e > > http://www.opti.com/ opti931_21.pdf > > pnp 1 1 os enable port0 0x534 port2 0x220 port3 0xe0d irq0 10 >drq0 1 drq1 6 After I entered this it still didn't work. Something funny I noted was that if you went into DOS and loaded the driver, the card still didn't get detected by the PnP auto-detect but was still getting attached to the pcm0 device at 0x220,5,1. But, when this happened I couldn't get any audio. (Even if I changed all /dev's to snd1) If I reinstall all the sources and add an sb0 device et al in as normal, I can do the boot up in DOS get the OPTi initialized then reboot into FreeBSD and getting it working okay. Should I stick to this? Finally, is the files I have for pnp???.tgz and snd???.tgz the most up to date? Some things you might want to know. I have - 486 dx2 80 FreeBSD 2.2.5/Current Non-PnP motherboard I think thats about all you need. If you were able to get it working under these conditions could you send me a copy of the config file as well as any modifications to the code. Just in case you need it here's a copy of the relevant dmesg output. >FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE #0: Mon Mar 2 01:51:19 EST 1998 > root@reman.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/GENERIC >Calibrating clock(s) ... i8254 clock: 1193666 Hz >CLK_USE_I8254_CALIBRATION not specified - using default frequency >CPU: i486 DX2 (486-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x435 Stepping=5 > Features=0x3 >real memory = 25165824 (24576K bytes) >config > ls >Device port irq drq iomem iosize unit flags enabled >pcm0 0x530 10 1 0x0 0 0 0x10 Yes >pcm1 0x220 5 1 0x0 0 1 0x0 Yes >CSN LDN conf en irqs drqs others (PnP devices) > 1 1 OS Y 10 0 1 6 port 0x534 0x0 0x220 0xe0d >config >quit >avail memory = 22503424 (21976K bytes) >Probing for PnP devices: >Trying Read_Port at 203 >Trying Read_Port at 243 >Trying Read_Port at 283 >Trying Read_Port at 2c3 >Trying Read_Port at 303 >Trying Read_Port at 343 >Trying Read_Port at 383 >Trying Read_Port at 3c3 >No Plug-n-Play devices were found >Probing for devices on the ISA bus: >mss_detect error, busy still set (0xff) >pcm0 not found at 0x530 >mss_detect error, busy still set (0xff) >pcm1 not found at 0x220 Thanks in advance. regards, chris -- Christopher Day, The reman, Loosecannon E-Mail the_reman@hotmail.com Homepage http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/1218 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 09:27:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07072 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:27:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA07056 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:27:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id QAA18996; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:55:24 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199803011555.QAA18996@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: your mail To: the_reman@hotmail.com (Chris Day) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:55:24 +0100 (MET) Cc: l.rizzo@iet.unipi.it, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, the_reman@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <19980301155829.14694.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Chris Day" at Mar 2, 98 02:58:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Luigi (and others), > > I have a tiny problem getting my soundcard to work under FreeBSD. Yes, > it is the infamous OPTi 82C931. I actually have a proper OPTi > soundcard, so I thought, stupidly, that it might be easy to get it to > work. I don't like this card very much, because it cost me way too much time to implement workarounds for incomplete documentation and idisincracies of the board. But since i have several of these cards, and it is hard to get any other MSS board here, it is definitely supported :) > Anyway, I installed pnp971020.tgz source patched the files, then > installed the snd980215.tgz source and patched the files. Then I > included various bits, compiled, then no matter what I tried it didn't > work. ... pnp 1 1 os enable port0 0x534 port2 0x220 port3 0xe0d irq0 10 drq0 1 drq1 6 i checked on my system and the device is configured as follows: CSN LDN conf en irq drq vendor_id. .... 1 1 BIOS y 10 - 1 6 0x3109143e port 0x534 0x380 0x220 0xe0d 1 2 BIOS n - - - - 0x3109143e port 0x201 1 3 BIOS n - - - - 0x3109143e however, another card i have requires 0xe0c as port3 address. This is undocumented in the opti931 docs, and i found out by looking at the pnpinfo output. One more thing, i think the opti931 can be hardwired (and perhaps programmed -- i am not sure about this) to disable PnP. For the hardwired solution, maybe your card has a jumper to do this. For the software, you should look at the data sheets if they give any hint. cheers luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 10:41:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14208 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [207.90.181.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14178 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:41:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ulf@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA15090 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.Alameda.net(207.90.181.2) via SMTP by DNS.Lamb.net, id smtpd015088; Sun Mar 1 10:41:33 1998 Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Gatekeeper.Alameda.net (8.8.6/8.7.6) id KAA17737 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:41:25 -0800 (PST) From: Ulf Zimmermann Message-Id: <199803011841.KAA17737@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net> Subject: Intel DK440LX motherboard with EtherExpress Pro/100B on board To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:41:25 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi. I bought an Intel DK440LX motherboard (Dual PII, Adaptec AIC-7895, Crystal sound card and EtherExpress Pro/100B onboard). The fxp driver seems to have a little problem: fxp0: rev 0x02 int a irq 11 on pci0.3.0 fxp0: Ethernet address 00:a0:c9:61:68:05 fxp0: warning: unsupported PHY, type = 11, addr = 1 Ifconfig shows: fxp0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 inet 207.90.181.122 netmask 0xffffff80 broadcast 207.90.181.127 ether 00:a0:c9:61:68:05 media: manual supported media: manual And you can't set anything via "ifconfig media ... mediaopt" Anyone seen this ? Any idea ? Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Alameda Networks, Inc. | http://www.Alameda.net | Fax#: 510-521-5073 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 11:33:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19818 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:33:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19642 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:33:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA18779; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:35:08 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:35:07 +0100 (CET) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Ulf Zimmermann cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Intel DK440LX motherboard with EtherExpress Pro/100B on board In-Reply-To: <199803011841.KAA17737@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > Hi. > > I bought an Intel DK440LX motherboard (Dual PII, Adaptec AIC-7895, Crystal > sound card and EtherExpress Pro/100B onboard). The fxp driver seems to > have a little problem: > > fxp0: rev 0x02 int a irq 11 on pci0.3.0 > fxp0: Ethernet address 00:a0:c9:61:68:05 > fxp0: warning: unsupported PHY, type = 11, addr = 1 The same warning in my case. But see below. > > Ifconfig shows: > > fxp0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 > inet 207.90.181.122 netmask 0xffffff80 broadcast 207.90.181.127 > ether 00:a0:c9:61:68:05 > media: manual > supported media: manual > > And you can't set anything via "ifconfig media ... mediaopt" Hmmm. Not in my case - it works perfectly. But I run -current on it, and you forgot to tell us your version... ;-) Andrzej Bialecki ---------------------+--------------------------------------------------------- abial@warman.org.pl | if(halt_per_mth > 0) { fetch("http://www.freebsd.org") } Research & Academic | "Be open-minded, but don't let your brains to fall out." Network in Poland | All of the above (and more) is just my personal opinion. ---------------------+--------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 11:38:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20678 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:38:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [207.90.181.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20619 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:37:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ulf@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA15298; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.Alameda.net(207.90.181.2) via SMTP by DNS.Lamb.net, id smtpd015295; Sun Mar 1 11:37:20 1998 Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Gatekeeper.Alameda.net (8.8.6/8.7.6) id LAA22739; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:37:10 -0800 (PST) From: Ulf Zimmermann Message-Id: <199803011937.LAA22739@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net> Subject: Re: Intel DK440LX motherboard with EtherExpress Pro/100B on board In-Reply-To: from Andrzej Bialecki at "Mar 1, 98 08:35:07 pm" To: abial@nask.pl (Andrzej Bialecki) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:37:09 -0800 (PST) Cc: ulf@Alameda.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > > > Hi. > > > > I bought an Intel DK440LX motherboard (Dual PII, Adaptec AIC-7895, Crystal > > sound card and EtherExpress Pro/100B onboard). The fxp driver seems to > > have a little problem: > > > > fxp0: rev 0x02 int a irq 11 on pci0.3.0 > > fxp0: Ethernet address 00:a0:c9:61:68:05 > > fxp0: warning: unsupported PHY, type = 11, addr = 1 > > The same warning in my case. But see below. > > > > > Ifconfig shows: > > > > fxp0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 > > inet 207.90.181.122 netmask 0xffffff80 broadcast 207.90.181.127 > > ether 00:a0:c9:61:68:05 > > media: manual > > supported media: manual > > > > And you can't set anything via "ifconfig media ... mediaopt" > > Hmmm. Not in my case - it works perfectly. But I run -current on it, and > you forgot to tell us your version... ;-) 2.2.5 RELEASE and 3.0-current SNAP 980228 > > Andrzej Bialecki > > ---------------------+--------------------------------------------------------- > abial@warman.org.pl | if(halt_per_mth > 0) { fetch("http://www.freebsd.org") } > Research & Academic | "Be open-minded, but don't let your brains to fall out." > Network in Poland | All of the above (and more) is just my personal opinion. > ---------------------+--------------------------------------------------------- > > Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Alameda Networks, Inc. | http://www.Alameda.net | Fax#: 510-521-5073 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 11:44:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21497 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:44:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21487 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:44:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA21058; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:46:37 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:46:37 +0100 (CET) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Ulf Zimmermann cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Intel DK440LX motherboard with EtherExpress Pro/100B on board In-Reply-To: <199803011937.LAA22739@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > > > > > Hi. > > > > > > I bought an Intel DK440LX motherboard (Dual PII, Adaptec AIC-7895, Crystal > > > sound card and EtherExpress Pro/100B onboard). The fxp driver seems to > > > have a little problem: > > > > > > fxp0: rev 0x02 int a irq 11 on pci0.3.0 > > > fxp0: Ethernet address 00:a0:c9:61:68:05 > > > fxp0: warning: unsupported PHY, type = 11, addr = 1 > > > > The same warning in my case. But see below. > > > > > > > > Ifconfig shows: > > > > > > fxp0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 > > > inet 207.90.181.122 netmask 0xffffff80 broadcast 207.90.181.127 > > > ether 00:a0:c9:61:68:05 > > > media: manual > > > supported media: manual > > > > > > And you can't set anything via "ifconfig media ... mediaopt" > > > > Hmmm. Not in my case - it works perfectly. But I run -current on it, and > > you forgot to tell us your version... ;-) > > 2.2.5 RELEASE and 3.0-current SNAP 980228 Ok. You'll have to wait till tomorrow, when I'm at work and can check the exact revision of the chip and so on... Do you use it in 10Mbps or 100Mbps? I use it only in 10Mbps mode... Andrzej Bialecki ---------------------+--------------------------------------------------------- abial@warman.org.pl | if(halt_per_mth > 0) { fetch("http://www.freebsd.org") } Research & Academic | "Be open-minded, but don't let your brains to fall out." Network in Poland | All of the above (and more) is just my personal opinion. ---------------------+--------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 12:09:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26085 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [207.90.181.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26075 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ulf@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA15433; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.Alameda.net(207.90.181.2) via SMTP by DNS.Lamb.net, id smtpd015428; Sun Mar 1 12:09:58 1998 Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Gatekeeper.Alameda.net (8.8.6/8.7.6) id MAA23799; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:48 -0800 (PST) From: Ulf Zimmermann Message-Id: <199803012009.MAA23799@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net> Subject: Re: Intel DK440LX motherboard with EtherExpress Pro/100B on board In-Reply-To: from Andrzej Bialecki at "Mar 1, 98 08:46:37 pm" To: abial@nask.pl (Andrzej Bialecki) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:48 -0800 (PST) Cc: ulf@Alameda.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > > > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > > > > > > > Hi. > > > > > > > > I bought an Intel DK440LX motherboard (Dual PII, Adaptec AIC-7895, Crystal > > > > sound card and EtherExpress Pro/100B onboard). The fxp driver seems to > > > > have a little problem: > > > > > > > > fxp0: rev 0x02 int a irq 11 on pci0.3.0 > > > > fxp0: Ethernet address 00:a0:c9:61:68:05 > > > > fxp0: warning: unsupported PHY, type = 11, addr = 1 > > > > > > The same warning in my case. But see below. > > > > > > > > > > > Ifconfig shows: > > > > > > > > fxp0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 > > > > inet 207.90.181.122 netmask 0xffffff80 broadcast 207.90.181.127 > > > > ether 00:a0:c9:61:68:05 > > > > media: manual > > > > supported media: manual > > > > > > > > And you can't set anything via "ifconfig media ... mediaopt" > > > > > > Hmmm. Not in my case - it works perfectly. But I run -current on it, and > > > you forgot to tell us your version... ;-) > > > > 2.2.5 RELEASE and 3.0-current SNAP 980228 > > Ok. You'll have to wait till tomorrow, when I'm at work and can check the > exact revision of the chip and so on... Do you use it in 10Mbps or > 100Mbps? I use it only in 10Mbps mode... > > Andrzej Bialecki Hub says: Port Name Status Vlan Level Duplex Speed Type ----- ------------------ ---------- ---------- ------ ------ ----- ------------ 5/11 connected 1 normal full 100 10/100BaseTX And I just checked transfer rates, very bad. many runts. Switched hub from Full Duplex 100 to Auto and it still shows Full Duplex and 100, but much better transfer rate. Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Alameda Networks, Inc. | http://www.Alameda.net | Fax#: 510-521-5073 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 13:36:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07129 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:36:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07090 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:36:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09811; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:33:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803012133.NAA09811@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Darren Reed cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: boot manager w/ freebsd In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 01:19:32 +1100." <199803011419.GAA17299@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 13:33:10 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > The boot manager used with freebsd 2.2.x usually presents one with a menu > of F-keys for each partition which can be booted from. > > When there are two disks on the system, there'll be an extra to goto > the second disk and back again. > > When there are three disks on the system, you can only boot from the > first (no option to goto the second or third disk is given). > > Is this fixable ? It needs someone with the Booteasy source code, and whatever tool(s) were used to build it. Note that it won't present you with a list of more than 2 drives, even if it is fixed. If you want that functionality, you will need to install something slightly smarter like OS-BS. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 13:38:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07549 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:38:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07516 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:38:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id PAA28098; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:38:50 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980301153850.12942@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:38:50 -0600 From: dannyman To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: high load, idle CPU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG my system has just jumped in to sustained high load, and i don't know why. this is a build of -current i think within the past week. would this be a bug in the system somewhere, or some naturally weird phenomenon? (i don't know whether to send-pr or email hackers, but the traffic's been a bit light so ...) top -b; last pid: 27341; load averages: 3.16, 2.50, 1.56 15:35:37 86 processes: 3 running, 83 sleeping Mem: 6368K Active, 48M Inact, 16M Wired, 6908K Cache, 8323K Buf, 712K Free Swap: 100M Total, 87M Used, 13M Free, 87% Inuse PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND 243 root 2 0 5256K 3268K select 53:30 2.17% 2.17% XF86_S3 261 dannyman 2 0 296K 356K select 13:04 0.08% 0.08% xdaliclock 260 dannyman 10 0 272K 364K nanslp 7:36 0.04% 0.04% xosview 17294 dannyman 2 0 516K 1280K select 0:00 0.04% 0.04% xterm 263 dannyman 10 0 728K 296K nanslp 14:57 0.00% 0.00% xearth 740 dannyman 10 0 75012K 844K wait 1:09 0.00% 0.00% perl5.00404 270 dannyman 2 0 17508K 816K select 0:56 0.00% 0.00% pppload 194 root 2 0 248K 272K select 0:37 0.00% 0.00% atalkd 174 root 10 0 500K 264K nanslp 0:26 0.00% 0.00% httpd 216 root 2 0 476K 388K select 0:23 0.00% 0.00% nmbd 27464 dannyman 10 0 232K 296K nanslp 0:22 0.00% 0.00% tail 17212 dannyman 2 0 296K 608K select 0:18 0.00% 0.00% xdaliclock 23232 dannyman 2 0 13044K 2420K select 0:15 0.00% 0.00% communicator-4 22329 dannyman 2 0 404K 288K select 0:14 0.00% 0.00% ssh 17214 dannyman 10 0 584K 508K nanslp 0:11 0.00% 0.00% xearth 256 dannyman 2 0 396K 300K select 0:08 0.00% 0.00% afterstep 268 dannyman 2 0 284K 408K select 0:07 0.00% 0.00% xload 4046 dannyman 2 0 764K 344K select 0:07 0.00% 0.00% mutt okay, and if dmesg is something that might be valuable; Copyright (c) 1992-1998 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #2: Wed Feb 25 00:50:33 CST 1998 root@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu:/newhome/src/sys/compile/STUMPY Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz cost 2524 ns Timecounter "TSC" frequency 99952270 Hz cost 356 ns CPU: AMD-K5(tm) Processor (99.95-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x511 Stepping=1 Features=0x21bf real memory = 83886080 (81920K bytes) avail memory = 79253504 (77396K bytes) Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0: rev 0x02 on pci0.0.0 chip1: rev 0x01 on pci0.7.0 ide_pci0: rev 0x00 on pci0.7.1 vga0: rev 0x54 int a irq 11 on pci0.17.0 ed1: rev 0x00 int a irq 10 on pci0.20.0 ed1: address 00:c0:0c:b0:ad:c6, type NE2000 (16 bit) Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> ed0 not found at 0x280 sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A lpt1 at 0x378-0x37f on isa fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 on isa wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): wd0: 1222MB (2503872 sectors), 2484 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S wdc1 at 0x170-0x177 irq 15 on isa wdc1: unit 0 (wd2): wd2: 6149MB (12594960 sectors), 13328 cyls, 15 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S wdc1: unit 1 (atapi): , removable, dma, iordy wcd0: 1377Kb/sec, 256Kb cache, audio play, 256 volume levels, ejectable tray wcd0: 120mm audio disc loaded, unlocked, lock protected npx0 flags 0x1 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface sb0 at 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 on isa snd0: sbxvi0 at ? drq 5 on isa snd0: sbmidi0 at 0x330 on isa snd0: opl0 at 0x388 on isa snd0: pid 848 (pppload), uid 1000: exited on signal 6 (core dumped) pid 15218 (pppload), uid 1000: exited on signal 6 (core dumped) pid 27498 (pppload), uid 1000: exited on signal 6 (core dumped) swap_pager: suggest more swap space: 158 MB pid 17228 (pppload), uid 1000: exited on signal 6 (core dumped) -- //Dan -=- This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu -=- \\/yori -=- Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ -=- aiokomete -=- Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 14:44:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17196 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:44:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17175 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:43:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05393; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:43:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd005377; Sun Mar 1 15:43:35 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA27485; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:43:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803012243.PAA27485@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: boot manager w/ freebsd To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:43:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803011419.GAA17299@hub.freebsd.org> from "Darren Reed" at Mar 2, 98 01:19:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > When there are three disks on the system, you can only boot from the > first (no option to goto the second or third disk is given). > > Is this fixable ? Yes. You need to burn a new BIOS for your machine and up the drive count from 2 to however many you want so that the BIOS will put the right %dl value (ie: 0x82, 0x83, ...). The problem is that boot managers can only load code via the INT 13 read interface, and your BIOS provides limits on the interface. Some SCSI BIOSes don't have these limits, so if you are using SCSI hardware, it may not be a problem. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 14:54:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18587 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:54:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18581 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:54:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10127; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:53:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803012253.OAA10127@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Terry Lambert cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: boot manager w/ freebsd In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 22:43:33 GMT." <199803012243.PAA27485@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:53:00 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > When there are three disks on the system, you can only boot from the > > first (no option to goto the second or third disk is given). > > > > Is this fixable ? > > Yes. You need to burn a new BIOS for your machine and up the drive > count from 2 to however many you want so that the BIOS will put the > right %dl value (ie: 0x82, 0x83, ...). Uh, actually I think the problem is the Booteasy only checks the LSB of the drive count value. If it's set, there's one drive, if it's clear, there are two. It's been a long time since I looked at the code, but I do seem to recall that with 4 drives you get two items on the menu again. Either way, the booteasy code design is such that it's really only suited for simple arrangements. For more complex systems, I have to recommend either the OS/2 Boot Manager (if you have OS/2) or System Commander. If you insist on freeware, then OS-BS may also do what you want. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 15:05:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19689 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:05:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19661 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:04:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01280; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:04:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd001266; Sun Mar 1 16:04:46 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA28537; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:04:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803012304.QAA28537@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: help - make world fails To: karl@mcs.net (Karl Denninger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:04:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jb@cimlogic.com.au, joe@via.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980301094530.23053@mcs.net> from "Karl Denninger" at Mar 1, 98 09:45:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > I've seen enough commentary on the hackers and current lists to think that > > > perhaps its not a good idea to consider -current a stable piece of code > > > right now..... am I right in this? In particular, the place I usually run > > > into trouble is the NFS code and its stability. > > > > Please clarify here. You mean NFS *client*, right? I've been getting > > pretty deeply into this code lately, and it's the *client* that freezes > > up here... > > So you're saying the NFS *SERVER* Code is completely stable right now? :-) > > (Actually, both are germane to me). The NFS *SERVER* code is a client of VFS, just as the system calls are a client of VFS. It proxies the VFS interface out via RPC calls to client machines. In effect: =========================================================================== Client machine Server machine u ------------------------------------------------------------------ k --------------------- --------------------- | | ,--------> | RPC server | | system calls | | --------------------- | | | | NFS server code | --------------------- | --------------------- | VFS | | | VFS | (peering) --------------------- | --------------------- | NFS client code | | | local media FS | --------------------- | --------------------- | RPC client | <------' --------------------- =========================================================================== If being a client of the VFS didn't work, then your system calls would not work. 8-). There is a slight problem in that "some pigs are more equal than others" -- in other words, the NFS server is an unequal pig when compared to system calls. System calls are given precedence in any conflict between the two. The biggest place you can see this is the "cookie" code that is used for arbitratry directory iteration restarts, used in VOP_READDIR by NFS, but not by other VFS clients. This results from differences in the struct dirent exported by FFS and the struct dirent exported by NFS. Doug Rabson and I agreed a long time ago that the best soloution to this would be to seperate the VOP_READDIR into two VOPS: one to get the directory blocks, and one to iterate within them. This would get rid of the cookies at the interface level, and the server would get block snapshots that it could get lease notifications on. A worst case scenario here is a create after delete in the same directory block, with uncompacted free space. This would result, potentially, returning a file name to the client twice, if the name was 24 characters or larger. AFAIK, there is one bug, related to AIX clients, in the NFS cookie restart code. There may be other bugs, but they will all be in the (very thin) veneer. Mostly in the complex parts of the name lookup code, where NFS, as a VFS client, is forced to jump through hoops for the underlying code's bias toward system call consumers. One very good example of this problem is that a VFS consumer must be prepared for the underlying VFS code to free its resources without warning or notification (like cn_pnbuf, for instance 8-)). For the most part, I believe the server code, at least for V2, is pretty solid, and I was pretty sure about V3 as well, but there is a wierdness in the multiple directory entry lookup; I don't know if it will ever be triggered, but there is a potential for a buffer overrrun. Does that (sort of) answer your question? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 15:17:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20865 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:17:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20850 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:17:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03978; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:17:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd003946; Sun Mar 1 16:17:03 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04517; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:17:00 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803012317.QAA04517@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: help - make world fails To: karl@mcs.net (Karl Denninger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:17:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: eivind@yes.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980301095616.35833@mcs.net> from "Karl Denninger" at Mar 1, 98 09:56:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, that's not good enough. Terry's patches haven't been committed, and > there has to be a reason for that. My NFS patches being discussed don't do anything other than locks. There is an architectural issue here as to whether or not the advisory locking should go to a veto-based interface. My arguments for this are: o Common code o Locks go to vnode instead of in core inode o locks off vnode helps with stacking if VOP_FINALVP is implemented and used. This is pretty much a win for union and agregate FS's *only* o NFS client locks need to be remembered locally so that they can be reasserted in case of a server crash. This is my way of saving the state. o NFS wire traffic is reduced, if the lock conflict is between clients on the same machine (faster fail). o Ability to teat-and-not-set for multiplexing FS's (NFS is a mux for local vs. remote locks, and unionfs is a mux for local vs. local locks). I think they are overwhelming, but I may be biased, having written the code. ;-). This is a style decision that I have not been persuasive enough about yet. That the code is "there" is not enough, probably because the rpc.lockd and rpc.statd code has not been completed and/or the client RPC code has not been completed. I'm wary of doing either of these before the infrastructure is committed because of mega-commit-phobia. > I HATE off-stream things. I have to deal with some of them all the time, > because we have some local ones (to do our funny clustering and kernel-based > permission masking, to name two). That's enough of a pain in the ass to > track across multiple revisions. If they were committed, they would not fix your client problems, unless your problems were lock-related. If your problems *were* lock related, they would *apparently* fix them, if you only test between clients on the same machine, until the other code goes in as well. Most likely, your client problems are *not* lock related, so for you, the patches being integrated would be a NOP. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 15:23:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22076 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:23:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from server4.mpcbbs.com.br (server4.mpc.com.br [200.246.0.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22005 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:22:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from capriotti@geocities.com) Received: from hot_nt (node56.mpc.com.br [200.246.0.56]) by server4.mpcbbs.com.br (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA18335 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:22:54 -0300 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980302082915.00a60cb0@pop.mpc.com.br> X-Sender: capriotti@pop.mpc.com.br X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 08:29:23 -0300 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: Capriotti Subject: Re: /usr/src/release/sysinstall needs YOU. :-) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I hate do discuss things I cannot help with - rolling up sleeves and working I mean - but this is a discussion I started (re starded as far as I know) and I still feel unconfortable for it's repercution, so, here we go one more time: I agree thet a pixel based interface would look graet, but I surrender to the argument that it may not be THAT important. BUT, a visual interface IS. I won't give my opinion; I will one more time call you attention to facts like: you put someone familiarized to networking in front of a NetWare server and tell him a couple of basic commands; In a couple of hours he will be able to put the server up and running, reconfigured, and probably better than it wasw. you can make an administrator for netware out of nothing in a week or so, and all of this because of a friendly VISUAL interface. of course documentation is important, but also is the visual efect of organization. I am that case; I had to configure a Netware server to access Internet w/o ever having done that and I was able to do it in a couple of days, w/o anyones help (some documentation was avaliable, of course). But I had problems to remove one of the network cards from free, because I just couldn't find where I shoud mess. Documentation is fine, but just if you know where to start looking at. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 15:43:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25121 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:43:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25114; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:43:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11182; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:27:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd011125; Sun Mar 1 16:26:59 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04854; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:26:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803012326.QAA04854@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: help - make world fails To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:26:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nrice@emu.sourcee.com, karl@mcs.net, jb@cimlogic.com.au, joe@via.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803011531.KAA02458@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 1, 98 10:31:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > I think that the system is very close to stable again, with the > > > NFS caveat. Once I can solve the (very reproduceable) problem, > > > I will be much happier with NFS. There are also some outstanding > > > bugfixes for NFS, which I am working with in my local tree... > > > > Would any of those outstanding ``bug fixes'' resolve the issue with > > NFS client freezing the system when the server is non-responsive? > > Not yet. I am working on things that are *more* severe than that > right now. Not discounting the above problem though as not being > severe. IMO, this is a problem in the RPC state machine not being sensitive to remote resets in the middle of an operation. Basically, an RPC call is made, your request is ack'ed or nak'ed, and if it was ack'ed, you go into a state from which you can only emerge with more data from the server. Probably this needs to timeout back to a retry as if you had not been ack'ed. I have not looked very deeply into what this would mean in terms of needing to unwind state, in the case that the original reques could no longer be validly served (ie: open/unlink an NFS file (results in a rename) and continue to do I/O). One thing that would help is server-signalling. This is basically the job of rpc.statd. THe operation could be retried before the timeout. One real pain is that for a long delay link, ie: satellite, Sprint (;-)), etc., if you were to restart the call that was ACK'ed and wait for another ACK, you would have to accept a response-without-ACK to make yourself robust (ie: if the OP was a "delete file" or whatever, it's not idempotent -- ie: unlike a block write, you can't replay the event with no ill effect). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 15:53:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26805 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:53:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26791 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:53:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24569; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:50:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803012350.PAA24569@implode.root.com> To: Terry Lambert cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: help - make world fails In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 23:17:00 GMT." <199803012317.QAA04517@usr08.primenet.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 15:50:22 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Well, that's not good enough. Terry's patches haven't been committed, and >> there has to be a reason for that. > >My NFS patches being discussed don't do anything other than locks. > >There is an architectural issue here as to whether or not the advisory >locking should go to a veto-based interface. My arguments for this are: > >o Common code > >o Locks go to vnode instead of in core inode > >o locks off vnode helps with stacking if VOP_FINALVP is > implemented and used. This is pretty much a win for > union and agregate FS's *only* > >o NFS client locks need to be remembered locally so that > they can be reasserted in case of a server crash. This > is my way of saving the state. > >o NFS wire traffic is reduced, if the lock conflict is > between clients on the same machine (faster fail). > >o Ability to teat-and-not-set for multiplexing FS's (NFS > is a mux for local vs. remote locks, and unionfs is a > mux for local vs. local locks). As I see it, except for the last one on the list, the rest of the above are not arguments in favor of "veto-based" advisory locking since they can all be acheived without that. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 16:00:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28543 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:00:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28502 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:00:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24648; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:57:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803012357.PAA24648@implode.root.com> To: Ulf Zimmermann cc: abial@nask.pl (Andrzej Bialecki), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Intel DK440LX motherboard with EtherExpress Pro/100B on board In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 12:09:48 PST." <199803012009.MAA23799@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 15:57:24 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > fxp0: warning: unsupported PHY, type = 11, addr = 1 ... >Port Name Status Vlan Level Duplex Speed Type >----- ------------------ ---------- ---------- ------ ------ ----- ------------ > 5/11 connected 1 normal full 100 10/100BaseTX > >And I just checked transfer rates, very bad. many runts. >Switched hub from Full Duplex 100 to Auto and it still shows Full Duplex and >100, but much better transfer rate. When that error comes out, full-duplex operation won't work correctly, so you'll have to use half duplex until support can be added for the PHY. It would help if you told me what chips were on the board. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 16:08:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00528 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:08:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [207.90.181.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00513 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:08:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ulf@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA16212; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.Alameda.net(207.90.181.2) via SMTP by DNS.Lamb.net, id smtpd016210; Sun Mar 1 16:08:28 1998 Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Gatekeeper.Alameda.net (8.8.6/8.7.6) id QAA00822; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:08:26 -0800 (PST) From: Ulf Zimmermann Message-Id: <199803020008.QAA00822@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net> Subject: Re: Intel DK440LX motherboard with EtherExpress Pro/100B on board In-Reply-To: <199803012357.PAA24648@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Mar 1, 98 03:57:24 pm" To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:08:25 -0800 (PST) Cc: ulf@Alameda.net, abial@nask.pl, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > > fxp0: warning: unsupported PHY, type = 11, addr = 1 > ... > >Port Name Status Vlan Level Duplex Speed Type > >----- ------------------ ---------- ---------- ------ ------ ----- ------------ > > 5/11 connected 1 normal full 100 10/100BaseTX > > > >And I just checked transfer rates, very bad. many runts. > >Switched hub from Full Duplex 100 to Auto and it still shows Full Duplex and > >100, but much better transfer rate. > > When that error comes out, full-duplex operation won't work correctly, so > you'll have to use half duplex until support can be added for the PHY. It > would help if you told me what chips were on the board. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project System chipset is Intel 82443LX PCI/A.G.P. and Intel 82371AB. The Ethernet chip is 82557. Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Alameda Networks, Inc. | http://www.Alameda.net | Fax#: 510-521-5073 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 16:14:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01255 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:14:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01236 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:14:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24822; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:08:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803020008.QAA24822@implode.root.com> To: Ulf Zimmermann cc: abial@nask.pl, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Intel DK440LX motherboard with EtherExpress Pro/100B on board In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 16:08:25 PST." <199803020008.QAA00822@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 16:08:57 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >System chipset is Intel 82443LX PCI/A.G.P. and Intel 82371AB. The >Ethernet chip is 82557. I need to know which PHY chip is being used; it should be close to the 82557 since it connects to it. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 16:21:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03074 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:21:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [207.90.181.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03068 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:21:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ulf@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA16275; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.Alameda.net(207.90.181.2) via SMTP by DNS.Lamb.net, id smtpd016273; Sun Mar 1 16:21:26 1998 Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Gatekeeper.Alameda.net (8.8.6/8.7.6) id QAA01227; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:21:23 -0800 (PST) From: Ulf Zimmermann Message-Id: <199803020021.QAA01227@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net> Subject: Re: Intel DK440LX motherboard with EtherExpress Pro/100B on board In-Reply-To: <199803020008.QAA24822@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Mar 1, 98 04:08:57 pm" To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:21:23 -0800 (PST) Cc: ulf@Alameda.net, abial@nask.pl, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >System chipset is Intel 82443LX PCI/A.G.P. and Intel 82371AB. The > >Ethernet chip is 82557. > > I need to know which PHY chip is being used; it should be close to the > 82557 since it connects to it. > I will open it later, but the manual says: Intel 82555 PHY. Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Alameda Networks, Inc. | http://www.Alameda.net | Fax#: 510-521-5073 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 16:41:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05843 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:41:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05826 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:41:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25152; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:34:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803020034.QAA25152@implode.root.com> To: Ulf Zimmermann cc: abial@nask.pl, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Intel DK440LX motherboard with EtherExpress Pro/100B on board In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 16:21:23 PST." <199803020021.QAA01227@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 16:34:30 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> I need to know which PHY chip is being used; it should be close to the >> 82557 since it connects to it. >> > >I will open it later, but the manual says: Intel 82555 PHY. Hmmm...there must be a new version of the chip or something since the 82555 is already supported (type=7). -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 16:57:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07830 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:57:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA07761 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:56:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199803020056.QAA07761@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA170190203; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:56:43 +1100 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: boot manager w/ freebsd To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:56:42 +1100 (EDT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803012253.OAA10127@dingo.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Mar 1, 98 02:53:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In some mail from Mike Smith, sie said: > > > > When there are three disks on the system, you can only boot from the > > > first (no option to goto the second or third disk is given). > > > > > > Is this fixable ? > > > > Yes. You need to burn a new BIOS for your machine and up the drive > > count from 2 to however many you want so that the BIOS will put the > > right %dl value (ie: 0x82, 0x83, ...). > > Uh, actually I think the problem is the Booteasy only checks the LSB of > the drive count value. If it's set, there's one drive, if it's clear, > there are two. It's been a long time since I looked at the code, but I > do seem to recall that with 4 drives you get two items on the menu > again. > > Either way, the booteasy code design is such that it's really only > suited for simple arrangements. For more complex systems, I have to > recommend either the OS/2 Boot Manager (if you have OS/2) or System > Commander. If you insist on freeware, then OS-BS may also do what you > want. In my experience, OS-BS doesn't work as well as Booteasy. Darren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 17:00:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08580 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:00:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08558 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:00:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22331; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:00:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd022287; Sun Mar 1 17:59:59 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA06455; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:59:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803020059.RAA06455@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: help - make world fails To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:59:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803012350.PAA24569@implode.root.com> from "David Greenman" at Mar 1, 98 03:50:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >locking should go to a veto-based interface. My arguments for this are: > > > >o Common code > > > >o Locks go to vnode instead of in core inode > > > >o locks off vnode helps with stacking if VOP_FINALVP is > > implemented and used. This is pretty much a win for > > union and agregate FS's *only* > > > >o NFS client locks need to be remembered locally so that > > they can be reasserted in case of a server crash. This > > is my way of saving the state. > > > >o NFS wire traffic is reduced, if the lock conflict is > > between clients on the same machine (faster fail). > > > >o Ability to teat-and-not-set for multiplexing FS's (NFS > > is a mux for local vs. remote locks, and unionfs is a > > mux for local vs. local locks). > > As I see it, except for the last one on the list, the rest of the above > are not arguments in favor of "veto-based" advisory locking since they can > all be acheived without that. Agreed... it's an architectural issue, and as you are architect, I don't presume to make your decisions for you. You'll note that I haven't bitched about the locking code not being committed, and I've defended the non-commit at every turn, just to be clear where the line is... This is why I was very careful to point out the issues, hopefully without bias, towards my particular implementation. The list I provided is a bit biased, as far as I'm concerned; I think that I can't work on a soloution identical to USL's because of my history as a USL employee, without exposing the project to undue (IMO) legal risk. The only argument I have (besides the last item) is that the implementation detail skirts the USL non-disclosure issues that I personally have for me to do the work. It's a weak argument, I know, but at least I'm willing... I don't see the code coming from another source. Some people have suggested the USL approach (ie: new system call); I'm afraid I can't do the work in that case because of the conflict between my contractual obligation. I'm charting a narrow course, here, between prior art and things which I can't reasonably disclose, even if we all agree that there's nothing brilliant or fundamentally new there, even the fact that they have been disclosed before in "The Magic Garden Explained". If someone else can implement the other implementation details, I'd be fine with that approach (I really don't care, so long as the problem is resolved so I can build upon the resolution). Personally, I can't work on an implementation where rpc.lockd maintains local state. Right now, I'm (apparently) your best bet as someone willing to wade into this crap. I'm sure I agree with you that I wish this weren't so... 8-|. SunOS is the reference implementation for NFS locking, so there are worse thing than being interface compatible with SunOS, AFAICT. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 17:20:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11573 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:20:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [207.90.181.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11465 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:19:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ulf@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id RAA16494; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:20:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.Alameda.net(207.90.181.2) via SMTP by DNS.Lamb.net, id smtpd016490; Sun Mar 1 17:19:54 1998 Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Gatekeeper.Alameda.net (8.8.6/8.7.6) id RAA02842; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:19:51 -0800 (PST) From: Ulf Zimmermann Message-Id: <199803020119.RAA02842@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net> Subject: Re: Intel DK440LX motherboard with EtherExpress Pro/100B on board In-Reply-To: <199803020034.QAA25152@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Mar 1, 98 04:34:30 pm" To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:19:50 -0800 (PST) Cc: ulf@Alameda.net, abial@nask.pl, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> I need to know which PHY chip is being used; it should be close to the > >> 82557 since it connects to it. > >> > > > >I will open it later, but the manual says: Intel 82555 PHY. > > Hmmm...there must be a new version of the chip or something since the > 82555 is already supported (type=7). > > -DG > Numbers on the chip are S82555 and L736EB68. Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Alameda Networks, Inc. | http://www.Alameda.net | Fax#: 510-521-5073 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 19:18:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24793 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:18:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opus.cts.cwu.edu (skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu [198.104.92.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24499 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:15:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu) Received: from localhost (skynyrd@localhost) by opus.cts.cwu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA03608; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:15:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:15:20 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Timmons To: Ulf Zimmermann cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Intel DK440LX motherboard with EtherExpress Pro/100B on board In-Reply-To: <199803011841.KAA17737@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Besides this, how do you like the board? I understand that it has the "dreaded phoenix bios" and I saw some folks on the -SMP list recommending against it for that reason. -Chris On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > Hi. > > I bought an Intel DK440LX motherboard (Dual PII, Adaptec AIC-7895, Crystal > sound card and EtherExpress Pro/100B onboard). The fxp driver seems to > have a little problem: > > fxp0: rev 0x02 int a irq 11 on pci0.3.0 > fxp0: Ethernet address 00:a0:c9:61:68:05 > fxp0: warning: unsupported PHY, type = 11, addr = 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 19:30:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28136 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:30:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28058 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:30:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id FAA23738; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:30:02 +0200 (IST) Message-ID: <19980302053001.29276@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:30:01 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ports for X11 stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Re: earlier discussion of X11 ports ought to be in /usr/local/X11R6 and not /usr/X11R6. It's clear that for ports that use imake, it's a fundamental imake (or XFree86) problem and should be solved on that level. However, there're still many programs that use configure, custom makefiles, whatever and don't *have* to be installed in /usr/X11R6. If I want to place those in /usr/local/X11R6 cleanly, I'm stuck: currently PREFIX= USE_X11 ? /usr/X11R6 : /usr/local/, so to speak, and both locations are unsuitable. Certainly one can hack around, but shouldn't there be another option in bsd.port.mk? Something like USE_X11_LOCALLY? -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 19:35:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29266 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:35:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA29096; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:34:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rivers@dignus.com) Received: from ponds.dignus.com (ponds.vnet.net [166.82.177.48]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA18850; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from lakes.dignus.com (lakes [10.0.0.3]) by ponds.dignus.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA24660; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:57:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.dignus.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) id WAA03710; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:39:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:39:27 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199803020339.WAA03710@lakes.dignus.com> To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, rivers@dignus.com, tlambert@primenet.com Subject: Re: The 'dave rivers' memorial panic. Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Dyson said: > > Terry Lambert said: > > > > We thought it was a bug in fsck and in the CG code. > > > > It turned out to be a longer-than-functional IDE cable. > > > > Try using a shorter IDE cable. > > > Slightly off subject: > > Even though Ultra-DMA/33 doesn't have higher clockrates than > 16MHz EIDE (Mode 4), it seems that the Promise controller and > WD drives DO NOT like out-of-spec IDE cables when running > Ultra-DMA/33. (Ultra-DMA uses both edges of the clock, so > there can be more transitions than EIDE, and the spectrum > will be higher in freq, also with more sensitivity to clock > skew, due to timing constraints.) > Umm... I don't know anything about this - but just a reminder; my "memorial" panic occurs with SCSI devices.... (but, I do have a reproduction on IDE as well.) Julian had mentioned he'd seen reproductions on different devices - but I didn't see the particulars. Or, are you guys discussing something else? - Dave Rivers - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 21:13:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10278 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:13:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from myth.links.ru (myth.relcom.ru [193.125.152.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA10271; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:13:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gam@myth.links.ru) Received: (from gam@localhost) by myth.links.ru (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17701; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:19:25 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from gam) From: Alexander Gnativ Message-Id: <199803020519.IAA17701@myth.links.ru> Subject: Re: ISA_PNP for FreeBSD To: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:19:25 +0300 (MSK) Cc: smpatel@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980228191848.30606@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> from "John-Mark Gurney" at "Feb 28, 98 07:18:48 pm" Reply-To: Alexander Gnativ Phone: +7 (095) 972-7546 (Zarya) Organization: Relcom Corp. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In reply to John-Mark Gurney who wrote: > Alexander Gnativ scribbled this message on Feb 28: > > I am installing subj. for my FreeBSD 2.2.5 > > I want to configure my sound card (sb0) and have done all > > from README file. But when I begin to compile the new kernel, > > process stops with such diagnostic: > > > > ../../i386/isa/pnp.c: At top level: > > ../../i386/isa/pnp.c:325: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype > > *** Error code 1 > > > > Stop. > > well... that isn't the real error... that's just a warning... the real > error is earlier... > > > In the string 325 I found function pnp_configure() > > Please, tell me what I must to do in such case. > > add a void in the param list... Unfortunately, it didn't help. :-(( > > -- > John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 > Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405 > > Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD > Don't trust anyone you don't have the source for > -- Best regards, Alexander Gnativ. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 21:34:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13389 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:34:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA13326; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:33:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id FAA19943; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:01:23 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199803020401.FAA19943@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: ISA_PNP for FreeBSD To: gam@links.ru Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:01:23 +0100 (MET) Cc: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu, smpatel@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803020519.IAA17701@myth.links.ru> from "Alexander Gnativ" at Mar 2, 98 08:19:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Alexander Gnativ scribbled this message on Feb 28: > > > I am installing subj. for my FreeBSD 2.2.5 > > > I want to configure my sound card (sb0) and have done all just to be sure, did you install the old Sujal's code named ISA_PNP, or the new pnp code that is also in -stable and -current ? You should definitely use the latter if you don't already. > > > ../../i386/isa/pnp.c: At top level: > > > ../../i386/isa/pnp.c:325: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype > > > *** Error code 1 ... > > well... that isn't the real error... that's just a warning... the real > > error is earlier... ... > > > In the string 325 I found function pnp_configure() > > > Please, tell me what I must to do in such case. > > > > add a void in the param list... > > Unfortunately, it didn't help. :-(( as John Mark said, you have to see what is the real error and fix that one :) . the warning is not the problem. cheers luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 21:46:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14442 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:46:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14429; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:46:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04573; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:45:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803020545.AAA04573@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: The 'dave rivers' memorial panic. In-Reply-To: <199803020339.WAA03710@lakes.dignus.com> from Thomas David Rivers at "Mar 1, 98 10:39:27 pm" To: rivers@dignus.com (Thomas David Rivers) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:45:10 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, rivers@dignus.com, tlambert@primenet.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thomas David Rivers said: > > John Dyson said: > > > > Terry Lambert said: > > > > > > We thought it was a bug in fsck and in the CG code. > > > > > > It turned out to be a longer-than-functional IDE cable. > > > > > > Try using a shorter IDE cable. > > > > > Slightly off subject: > > > > Even though Ultra-DMA/33 doesn't have higher clockrates than > > 16MHz EIDE (Mode 4), it seems that the Promise controller and > > WD drives DO NOT like out-of-spec IDE cables when running > > Ultra-DMA/33. (Ultra-DMA uses both edges of the clock, so > > there can be more transitions than EIDE, and the spectrum > > will be higher in freq, also with more sensitivity to clock > > skew, due to timing constraints.) > > > > Umm... I don't know anything about this - but just a reminder; > my "memorial" panic occurs with SCSI devices.... (but, I do have > a reproduction on IDE as well.) Julian had mentioned he'd seen > reproductions on different devices - but I didn't see the particulars. > > Or, are you guys discussing something else? > Yes (re: my slightly off subject note!!!) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 22:02:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16366 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:02:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (d182-89.uoregon.edu [128.223.182.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16302 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:02:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01976; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:01:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980301220157.21804@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:01:57 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Alexander Gnativ Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISA_PNP for FreeBSD References: <19980228191848.30606@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> <199803020519.IAA17701@myth.links.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199803020519.IAA17701@myth.links.ru>; from Alexander Gnativ on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 08:19:25AM +0300 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alexander Gnativ scribbled this message on Mar 2: > In reply to John-Mark Gurney who wrote: > > Alexander Gnativ scribbled this message on Feb 28: > > > I am installing subj. for my FreeBSD 2.2.5 > > > I want to configure my sound card (sb0) and have done all > > > from README file. But when I begin to compile the new kernel, > > > process stops with such diagnostic: > > > > > > ../../i386/isa/pnp.c: At top level: > > > ../../i386/isa/pnp.c:325: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype > > > *** Error code 1 > > > > > > Stop. > > > > well... that isn't the real error... that's just a warning... the real > > error is earlier... please read the above and send me the lines from the last ^{g,}cc line to end of compile... > > > In the string 325 I found function pnp_configure() > > > Please, tell me what I must to do in such case. > > > > add a void in the param list... > > Unfortunately, it didn't help. :-(( it did get rid of the message that you sent to use didn't it?? it's all the help I could give you with the information that you gave... -- John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405 Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD Don't trust anyone you don't have the source for To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 23:08:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22506 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22498 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:08:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199803020708.XAA22498@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA243512533; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:08:54 +1100 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: boot manager w/ freebsd To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:08:53 +1100 (EDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803012253.OAA10127@dingo.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Mar 1, 98 02:53:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Uh, actually I think the problem is the Booteasy only checks the LSB of > the drive count value. If it's set, there's one drive, if it's clear, > there are two. It's been a long time since I looked at the code, but I > do seem to recall that with 4 drives you get two items on the menu > again. > > Either way, the booteasy code design is such that it's really only > suited for simple arrangements. For more complex systems, I have to > recommend either the OS/2 Boot Manager (if you have OS/2) or System > Commander. If you insist on freeware, then OS-BS may also do what you > want. Hmmm, version 1.8 of booteasy at least lets you boot off two if > 2 are present. guess Ill have to investigate it some more. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 23:22:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24157 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:22:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050ndd.san.rr.com (root@dt050ndd.san.rr.com [204.210.31.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24136 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:21:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (dougdougdougdoug@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050ndd.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05685; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:21:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <34FA5E08.611585A4@san.rr.com> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 23:21:44 -0800 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE-0228 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anatoly Vorobey CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff References: <19980302053001.29276@techunix.technion.ac.il> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > Re: earlier discussion of X11 ports ought to be in /usr/local/X11R6 > and not /usr/X11R6. I'd like to second this. It is a small thing, but for the sake of consistency as well as good design I'd like to see it changed. Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server. 5,328 clients and still growing. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 23:31:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25276 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:31:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.giovannelli.it (www.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25257 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:31:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from giovannelli.it (modem00.masternet.it [194.184.65.254]) by www.giovannelli.it (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00345; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:35:27 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <34FA60E3.F445EC4B@giovannelli.it> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 08:33:55 +0100 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe McGuckin CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvsup & make 'world' References: <199803010224.SAA27984@monk.via.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joe McGuckin wrote: > > I used cvsup for the first time today. The base system is 2.2.5-RELEASE. > I used the default 'standard-supfile' in /usr/src/share/examples/cvsup. > > I believe this should update my source tree to 2.2.5-current - right ? Not quite right, I think you are updating to 3.0-current The 2.2.5-current doesn't exist , the right name is 2.2.5-STABLE and you have to use the stable-supfile instead... > I cd'd to /usr/src and performed a 'make buildworld'. I got a compile > error some way into the process. > > Is it very unusual for the -current tree to not build ? 3.0-current build fine, you have only mixed too much things .. -- Regards... Gianmarco "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 23:48:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28030 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:48:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28022 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA00356; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:47:45 -0800 (PST) To: Studded cc: Anatoly Vorobey , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Mar 1998 23:21:44 PST." <34FA5E08.611585A4@san.rr.com> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 23:47:45 -0800 Message-ID: <353.888824865@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'd like to second this. It is a small thing, but for the sake of > consistency as well as good design I'd like to see it changed. Actually, this would be far from consistent - it would confuse the piss out of folks who've become more than used to /usr/X11R6 as the location for X libraries and binaries over the last 3 years. Changing it at this juncture would only be a recipe for complete and utter chaos. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 23:52:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28801 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:52:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28781 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:52:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA00392; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:51:15 -0800 (PST) To: Darren Reed cc: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: boot manager w/ freebsd In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:08:53 +1100." <199803020708.XAA22498@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 23:51:15 -0800 Message-ID: <388.888825075@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hmmm, version 1.8 of booteasy at least lets you boot off two if > 2 are > present. It's unlikely that we're using version 1.8 - our own "embedded" version of booteasy is ancient. phk - is it as easy as simply re-encoding the boot.bin file? Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 1 23:59:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA29944 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:59:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.30.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA29938 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:59:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00369 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:01:20 GMT (envelope-from kuku) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:01:20 GMT From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199803020801.IAA00369@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: g77 - status? Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Could someone give me a short brief-in on the issues related with using g77 instead of f77 (f2c) under FreeBSD-2.2.5? Can g77 be installed out of the box from the package? I did and it seems so. Does it use libf2c.a or does it have it's own runtime library? Has there been a problem with g77 under FreeBSD-2.2.2 ? -- Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 00:48:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06307 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:48:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06254 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:47:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19387; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:47:51 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA06738; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:47:02 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980302094702.33670@follo.net> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:47:02 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: khansen@njcc.com, "Ron G. Minnich" Cc: hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. References: <34F43E86.4770@njcc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <34F43E86.4770@njcc.com>; from Ken Hansen on Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 10:53:42AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 10:53:42AM -0500, Ken Hansen wrote: > Ron G. Minnich wrote: > > > > On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Adam Turoff wrote: > > > Ken Hansen writes: > > > > Is it REALLY that hard to come up with a keyboard & monitor? > > > For a regular box, no. For a toaster, possibly. > > > > we have a 128-node cluster here at sarnoff. no keyboards, no monitors, no > > display cards. Needless to say, keyboard-less admin protocols look like a > > good idea from here :-) > > Granted, ther are special applications, but for a stand-alone, set & > forget > machine, I don't think my previous statement is TOO far off the mark > ("Is it REALLY that hard...") - but I suspect that a 128-node cluster is > (for now) a rare configuration... I'd suspect the keyboard/montitor-less configuration is much more important in the set of people that contribute to FreeBSD than in the average case. The question is if we want to lock out the people that _do_ contribute code. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 00:48:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06528 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:48:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.ftf.dk (root@mail.ftf.dk [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06481 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:48:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk) Received: from mail.prosa.dk ([192.168.100.2]) by firewall.ftf.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA10738; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:37:38 +0100 Received: from deepo.prosa.dk (deepo.prosa.dk [192.168.100.10]) by mail.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA24892; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:56:45 +0100 (CET) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by deepo.prosa.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) id JAA29850; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:47:14 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19980302094714.18899@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:47:14 +0100 From: Philippe Regnauld To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff References: <34FA5E08.611585A4@san.rr.com> <353.888824865@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <353.888824865@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 11:47:45PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386 Organization: PROSA Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > Actually, this would be far from consistent - it would confuse the > piss out of folks who've become more than used to /usr/X11R6 as the > location for X libraries and binaries over the last 3 years. Changing > it at this juncture would only be a recipe for complete and utter > chaos. Agreed. Just a comment: /usr/X11R6 is a growing beastie. All X related things (app-defaults, libs, binaries, headers) get installed in it. Consequence: /usr/X11R6 easily grows above 100 Mbytes, and this is incompatible with the notion of a static, ro /usr. It's a problem during installation if you're going to unpack X: - either you make /usr 200 Mb or so (knowing you'll be doing dump+restore sooner than you'd want), - or you make it the 90 Mbytes it's happy with, and go to the emergency shell and _remember_ to make /usr/local/X11R6 and symlink. Am I alone ? "Now it'd be nice if"© a simple dialog box popped up during sysinstall saying, "hey, you chose to install X, you have less than N megabytes for /usr, but you have 3 Terabytes in /usr/local: [do you want to | you should ] create /usr/local/X11R6, and make a symlink in /usr ?" I might (*shudder*) even look at sysinstall's code (*tremble*) and see if I can do it myself, if there's interest. -- -[ Philippe Regnauld / sysadmin / regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk / +55.4N +11.3E ]- «Pluto placed his bad dog at the entrance of Hades to keep the dead IN and the living OUT! The archetypical corporate firewall?» - S. Kelly Bootle, ("MYTHOLOGY", in Marutukku distrib) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 01:08:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA09404 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:08:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA09387 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:08:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA00493; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:52:57 -0800 (PST) To: Philippe Regnauld cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 09:47:14 +0100." <19980302094714.18899@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 00:52:57 -0800 Message-ID: <488.888828777@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > "Now it'd be nice if"© a simple dialog box popped > up during sysinstall saying, "hey, you chose to install X, you have > less than N megabytes for /usr, but you have 3 Terabytes in > /usr/local: [do you want to | you should ] create /usr/local/X11R6, > and make a symlink in /usr ?" > > I might (*shudder*) even look at sysinstall's code (*tremble*) > and see if I can do it myself, if there's interest. Talk to Mike Smith - he's already (*shudder* :-) in this area of the code trying to figure out how to do proper sizing information for everything, not just the X bits, and implement proper "you're 30% done" progress bars. It sounds to me like what you want would fall out of this fairly easily. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 01:10:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10047 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:10:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from plugcom.ru (uucp@radiance.plugcom.ru [195.2.73.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10008 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:10:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tarkhil@minas-tirith.pol.ru) Received: from minas-tirith.pol.ru (uucp@localhost) by plugcom.ru (8.8.7/8.8.6) with UUCP id MAA13269 for freebsd.org!hackers; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:10:15 +0300 (MSK) Received: from minas-tirith.pol.ru (minas-tirith.pol.ru [127.0.0.1]) by minas-tirith.pol.ru (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01190 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:05:09 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from tarkhil@minas-tirith.pol.ru) Message-Id: <199803020905.MAA01190@minas-tirith.pol.ru> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: freebsd.org!hackers@minas-tirith.pol.ru Subject: Cluster? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 12:05:09 +0300 From: Alex Povolotsky Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG <19980302094702.33670@follo.net>Eivind Eklund writes: >> > we have a 128-node cluster here at sarnoff. no keyboards, no monitors, no Clusters on FreeBSD does exist? GREAT! Is it possible to get patches/whitepapers/etc. on it? Alex. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 01:10:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10122 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:10:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10086 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:10:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA09297; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:10:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803020910.BAA09297@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Eivind Eklund cc: khansen@njcc.com, "Ron G. Minnich" , hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 09:47:02 +0100." <19980302094702.33670@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 01:10:20 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG eivind@yes.no said: > I'd suspect the keyboard/montitor-less configuration is much more > important in the set of people that contribute to FreeBSD than in the > average case. The question is if we want to lock out the people that > _do_ contribute code. > Eivind. For a user friendly configuration tools we can forget about experts. Besides most of them are fully capable of deploying their own configuration tools. Well, at least I was able to for one of my contracts 8) We should start targetting newbies --- got a complaint from my ISP that he was starting to see people moving away from NT and asked about ease of FreeBSD . For evaluation purposes he has installed linux and FreeBSD. BTW: Now that the Java front is picking steam perhaps someone can start thinking about using Java for system or user configuration stuff. The latest version of the jdk can be run without X . Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 01:14:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11192 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:14:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (root@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA11164 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:13:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bannai@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from bannai@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id AAA00813; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:12:48 -0800 (PST) From: Vinay Bannai Message-Id: <199803020812.AAA00813@shell6.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: "Best" Fast Ethernet Card In-Reply-To: <19980301131921.45593@klemm.gtn.com> from Andreas Klemm at "Mar 1, 98 01:19:21 pm" To: andreas@klemm.gtn.com (Andreas Klemm) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:12:48 -0800 (PST) Cc: bannai@best.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Andreas Klemm: > On Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 04:13:12PM -0800, Vinay Bannai wrote: > > > > Yup. The ifnet device has a flag which indicates that it is capable of > > doing checksum in the hardware and you set this flag in the mbufs and pass > > it along. This is pretty usefule when computing checksumn in hardware for > > transmits too. > > > > I know of atleast two protocol stack implementations (popular too) that > > use these techniques... > > Which one ? > > Is it a secret ? ;-) > I don't if it is a secret. But if you must know, I do work for a relatvilely large super computer firm based in Minneosota but work from their Mountian View office. :-) Vinay -- Vinay Bannai E-mail: bannai@best.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 02:32:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19292 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:32:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19287 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:32:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA09520; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:44:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803020944.BAA09520@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Vinay Bannai cc: andreas@klemm.gtn.com (Andreas Klemm), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Best" Fast Ethernet Card In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 00:12:48 PST." <199803020812.AAA00813@shell6.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 01:44:06 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sounds like SGI/Cray or Sun/Cray -- it gets so confusing now days 8) Cheers, Amancio > > > > I don't if it is a secret. But if you must know, I do work for a > relatvilely large super computer firm based in Minneosota but work from > their Mountian View office. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 02:56:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21966 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:56:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [149.174.217.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21960 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:56:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from 76350.1227@compuserve.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id FAA09043; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:55:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:54:54 -0500 From: Bruce Vandiver <76350.1227@compuserve.com> Subject: the Future Domain TMC-16XX To: Trushar Zaveri Cc: tech_help_drivers Message-ID: <199803020555_MC2-352C-B90@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id CAA21961 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I picked up your email address from the newsgroups a little while ago >because I saw you were trying to get drivers for a bunch of Future Domain >SCSI cards you have. I have the TMC-1680-SVP in my old old ancient 486 >machine, but I have a bunch of old narrow SCSI disks that I want to use on >that machine (make it a storehouse kind of thing) >anyway, most of that is besides the point... have you gotten anywhere >with the leads you were given? I know a couple of people offered to help >you integrate the modified AHA-2920 driver back for support of the >TMC-18C30, and if you *did* get it to work (or if you didn't) could you >let me know? I've banged my head against the kernel a bit, but I'm no >programmer unfortunately, and I cannot get the kernel to compile if I try >to get the card support in. >looking forward to hear what you have to say about it. >Thanks in advance! Hi Trushar: I have had offers of help, but no action. It seems easy to give lip service to the subject, but action is another matter. Here are some of the comments I have received: (you may already have read this) >Hello Bruce. I've been a FreeBSD user for more or less 4 years now and am >interested in trying my hand at some kernel coding. I have been following >your posts in -hackers with a fair amount of interest, since I have a >Future Domain card that was donated to me by someone who upgraded and am >interested in putting this hardware to use. I think that incorporating >the driver into FreeBSD might be something good for me to gain some >experience. I have taken the driver that Bob Bishop mentioned and >integrated it into -current on my test machine and I have it talking to >some SCSI devices. I don't have much to test it on, since I have only IDE >HDDs and not many SCSI peripherals. Reading raw code + little experience >with device drivers + little experience at low level SCSI = a non-trivial >task. However, I'm willing to give it a try. - K.C. From: kfurge@worldnet.att.net >If you'd like, I'll be more than happy to send you the tutorial I threw >together on starting to write device drivers. Unfortunately, this is how >device drivers get written. Someone with the device, and interest to have >it supported (read: You) lays their hands on the programming documentation, >does much trial and error learning the driver interface, and then writes >the driver. From: "Brian J. McGovern" >You appear to be failing to appreciate that FreeBSD acquires >new drivers because people go out and develop them, and then >contribute them to the project. >There isn't a Driver Development Lab with lots of people and >money that's studiously ignoring your requests while playing >Doom and chugging Jolt and pizza. I wish there was; I'd be >begging for a job there myself. > >I would strongly suggest that you should study the Linux source that >you have, and the source for a similar ISA SCSI adapter driver, and >begin your own development. I do seem to recall someone mention that >they had documentation for the controller you are asking about on the >shelf; perhaps you should search the archives at www.freebsd.org for >a reference here too, as such documentation would be very useful. > >Please feel free to post questions regarding your development to the >list, as we do try to encourage new contributors whenever possible. >Regards, Mike. From: msmith@freebsd.org >There already is a driver, which only has not been imported >into the CVS tree, since it used source files spread out all >over the kernel tree. This was going to be resolved shortly >(as of December 1996 ;-). >I may be able to dig out the sources, and you will have to >stuff them into the correct directories and modify some of >the files used to configure the kernel. >But it may be better to ask *Joerg Wunsch* to make up his mind >how to import that driver into -current ... Regards, STefan. From: Stefan Esser * BTW - (joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de) or (j@uriah.heep.sax.de) >> Have a look at >> http://www.sbox.tu-graz.ac.at/home/rmike/freebsd/welcome.html which >> contains an 18c30 driver ported for the AHA2920. It also contains the >> original tmc18c30/ISA support which may well work with your cards. >>From: Mike Smith > >Well I never. If anyone out there is using this driver, can we have >some feedback? If it works and appears to be maintained, we ought to >incorporate it... From: Bob Bishop I am especially interested in the comment "If it works and appears to be maintained, we ought to incorporate it..." From Bob Bishop. Will anything come of all this? I really don't know. For now I'm using Linux. I remain hopefull, but I am pretty much in the same shape as you. If you get any good news, please copy me on it. Thanks in advance! Regards; Bruce Vandiver 76350.1227@compuserve.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 03:15:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA23568 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:15:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA23556 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:15:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA22326; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:15:54 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:15:53 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: Amancio Hasty cc: Eivind Eklund , khansen@njcc.com, "Ron G. Minnich" , hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-Reply-To: <199803020910.BAA09297@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > I'd suspect the keyboard/montitor-less configuration is much more > > important in the set of people that contribute to FreeBSD than in the > > average case. The question is if we want to lock out the people that > > _do_ contribute code. > > > Eivind. > > For a user friendly configuration tools we can forget about experts. > Besides most of them are fully capable of deploying their own configuration > tools. Well, at least I was able to for one of my contracts 8) I disagree. We can produce "easy configuration" tools as much as we want, but we will have to re-do them every time, some change is done (in distributed version, or locally by an "expert" sysadmin), if those tools won't be extensible and suitable for complex tasks. Red Hat with its tcl-based configuration is just below the acceptable level (it has more or less configurable scripts and horribly inflexible interface, no networked reconfiguration in synchronized manner, no reasonable way to add new features, no general transactions mechanism, etc), and I think that we should do something above it if we don't want to be studied in schools as the point where unix/unixlike development degraded into the same amateur level, some other kinds of programmers are known for. Sun won't do it for us (NIS+ is the best it was capable of, even though it's the opposite approach), neither will others (nothing worth mentioning here, not even SGI except as an example of poor security design). > We should start targetting newbies -- got a complaint from my ISP > that he was starting to see people moving away from NT and asked > about ease of FreeBSD . For evaluation purposes he has installed > linux and FreeBSD. If the system is designed well, its default configuration can be very newbie-friendly, however others will be able to reconfigure and/or extend it. Limiting it to newbie level won't give us much. > BTW: Now that the Java front is picking steam perhaps someone can > start thinking about using Java for system or user configuration stuff. As long as it's limited to user-interface client. I see no excuse for making a system that can't configure its own startup scripts without java, or for branching of FreeBSD distribution into "newbie" and "expert" ones, based on this (yes, I'm the same Alex Belits, who was exaplining/defending here Linux's reasons for multiple distributions -- but they don't apply well in this case). > The latest version of the jdk can be run without X . With all GUI? What low-level interface will it use? -- Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 03:29:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA24761 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:29:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isvara.net (root@[130.88.148.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA24751 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:29:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@challenge.isvara.net) Received: from challenge.isvara.net ([130.88.66.5]) by isvara.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04124 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:30:18 GMT Message-ID: <34FA97F9.7ACB4E7E@challenge.isvara.net> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:28:57 +0000 From: freebsd@isvara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: CVSup failing... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I've installed the cvsup packages, and tried to get it up and running. Sysinstall also installed the modula library (as a dependancy), but when I try running it, I get: ld.so failed: Can't find shared library "libXaw.so.6.1" I've tried finding this library file with locate, but it isn't there. Any pointers? Cheers, Dan _____________________________________ Daniel J Blueman BSc Computation, UMIST, Manchester Email: blue@challenge.isvara.net Web: http://www.challenge.isvara.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 03:36:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA25571 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:36:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA25560 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:36:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA10153; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:35:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803021135.DAA10153@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Alex Belits cc: Eivind Eklund , khansen@njcc.com, "Ron G. Minnich" , hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:15:53 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:35:59 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don't have many comments --- well okay at work we got a 20000 line system install thingy all written in shell try debugging that 8) Traditional scripting languages for unix, sh, csh , tcsh are a bit antiquated and downright awkward to work with. Java is extensible and its supporting structure is intensively being worked on . For design methodologies , there are excellent books such as Design Patterns : Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software Erich Gamma Richard Helm Ralph Johnson John Vlissides If you have not read it is an excellent book . Best Regards, Amancio > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > I'd suspect the keyboard/montitor-less configuration is much more > > > important in the set of people that contribute to FreeBSD than in the > > > average case. The question is if we want to lock out the people that > > > _do_ contribute code. > > > > > Eivind. > > > > For a user friendly configuration tools we can forget about experts. > > Besides most of them are fully capable of deploying their own configuration > > tools. Well, at least I was able to for one of my contracts 8) > > I disagree. We can produce "easy configuration" tools as much as we > want, but we will have to re-do them every time, some change is done (in > distributed version, or locally by an "expert" sysadmin), if those tools > won't be extensible and suitable for complex tasks. Red Hat with its > tcl-based configuration is just below the acceptable level (it has more or > less configurable scripts and horribly inflexible interface, no networked > reconfiguration in synchronized manner, no reasonable way to add new > features, no general transactions mechanism, etc), and I think that we > should do something above it if we don't want to be studied in schools as > the point where unix/unixlike development degraded into the same amateur > level, some other kinds of programmers are known for. Sun won't do it for > us (NIS+ is the best it was capable of, even though it's the opposite > approach), neither will others (nothing worth mentioning here, not even > SGI except as an example of poor security design). > > > We should start targetting newbies -- got a complaint from my ISP > > that he was starting to see people moving away from NT and asked > > about ease of FreeBSD . For evaluation purposes he has installed > > linux and FreeBSD. > > If the system is designed well, its default configuration can be very > newbie-friendly, however others will be able to reconfigure and/or extend > it. Limiting it to newbie level won't give us much. > > > BTW: Now that the Java front is picking steam perhaps someone can > > start thinking about using Java for system or user configuration stuff. > > As long as it's limited to user-interface client. I see no excuse for > making a system that can't configure its own startup scripts without java, > or for branching of FreeBSD distribution into "newbie" and "expert" > ones, based on this (yes, I'm the same Alex Belits, who was > exaplining/defending here Linux's reasons for multiple distributions -- > but they don't apply well in this case). > > > The latest version of the jdk can be run without X . > > With all GUI? What low-level interface will it use? > > -- > Alex > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 03:41:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA26331 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:41:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA26325 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:41:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from ash2.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.16.30] ([PZUWn2pbYCj9snGm32XUs5YaoXwxrJTt]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0y9TaK-0001pr-00; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:40:40 +0000 Received: from njs3 by ash2.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0y9TZu-0002Or-00; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:40:14 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:40:14 +0000 In-Reply-To: freebsd@isvara.net "CVSup failing..." (Mar 2, 11:28am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: freebsd@isvara.net, FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: CVSup failing... Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mar 2, 11:28am, freebsd@isvara.net wrote: } Subject: CVSup failing... > I've installed the cvsup packages, and tried to get it up and > running. > > I try running it, I get: > ld.so failed: Can't find shared library "libXaw.so.6.1" > > I've tried finding this library file with locate, but it isn't there. > Any pointers? libXaw is part of the X Window System, if you aren't using X then either install it or pull down the source for cvsup and see if you can build it without support for X. If you already have X installed run ldconfig /usr/X11R6/lib as root. Niall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 04:00:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA28764 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:00:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA28758 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:00:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA22514; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:01:42 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:01:41 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: Amancio Hasty cc: Eivind Eklund , khansen@njcc.com, "Ron G. Minnich" , hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-Reply-To: <199803021135.DAA10153@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > I don't have many comments --- well okay at work we got a 20000 line > system install thingy all written in shell try debugging that 8) > > > Traditional scripting languages for unix, sh, csh , tcsh are > a bit antiquated and downright awkward to work with. > > Java is extensible and its supporting structure is intensively being > worked on . I never said that anything that configures system remotely should be written in shell. Perl is adequate, but I rather prefer C++, which is still more flexible and efficient than java. [long-winged explanation about incompleteness and impurity of OOP in C++ and reasons for accepting it as tradeof for efficiency, better interface with OS and portability is omitted here] -- Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 04:08:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA01055 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:08:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA01048 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:08:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA10350; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:08:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803021208.EAA10350@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Alex Belits cc: Eivind Eklund , khansen@njcc.com, "Ron G. Minnich" , hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 04:01:41 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 04:08:33 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > I don't have many comments --- well okay at work we got a 20000 line > > system install thingy all written in shell try debugging that 8) > > > > > > Traditional scripting languages for unix, sh, csh , tcsh are > > a bit antiquated and downright awkward to work with. > > > > Java is extensible and its supporting structure is intensively being > > worked on . > > I never said that anything that configures system remotely should be > written in shell. Perl is adequate, but I rather prefer C++, which is > still more flexible and efficient than java. Yeap, I have to agree that C++ is significantly faster than Java for system configuration 8) BTW: you forgot who was going to write the nice X stuff for a C++ based program that is if we are still talking about a GUI tool . Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 04:13:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02108 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:13:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA02088 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:13:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA22587; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:14:14 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:14:12 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: Amancio Hasty cc: Eivind Eklund , khansen@njcc.com, "Ron G. Minnich" , hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-Reply-To: <199803021208.EAA10350@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > I never said that anything that configures system remotely should be > > written in shell. Perl is adequate, but I rather prefer C++, which is > > still more flexible and efficient than java. > > Yeap, I have to agree that C++ is significantly faster than Java for system > configuration 8) > > BTW: you forgot who was going to write the nice X stuff for a C++ based program > that is if we are still talking about a GUI tool . If the content of "Subject" field still applies -- Netscape, Inc. plus someone who will fix their screwups with configuration handling. Or anyone else. -- Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 04:18:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02923 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:18:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (64I/CzPJHWpVe582gLJr8dcmQO00zUi6@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA02882 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:18:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from oak71.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.46.71] ([ePrZsb0r3IM5DFWkGdFrVQYUDFDBQUHK]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0y9U9y-0002Bn-00; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:17:30 +0000 Received: from njs3 by oak71.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0y9U9Y-0007Ko-00; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:17:04 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:17:04 +0000 In-Reply-To: Amancio Hasty "Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool." (Mar 2, 4:08am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Amancio Hasty , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mar 2, 4:08am, Amancio Hasty wrote: } Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. > > > > I never said that anything that configures system remotely should be > > written in shell. Perl is adequate, but I rather prefer C++, which is > > still more flexible and efficient than java. > > Yeap, I have to agree that C++ is significantly faster than Java for system > configuration 8) I disagree, C++ may be faster than Java, but that difference is not significant when doing GUI-type system administration. Niall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 04:24:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA04107 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:24:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from spooky.rwwa.com (rwwa.com [198.115.177.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA04100 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:24:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from witr@spooky.rwwa.com) Received: from spooky.rwwa.com (localhost.rwwa.com [127.0.0.1]) by spooky.rwwa.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA29946; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:25:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from witr@spooky.rwwa.com) Message-Id: <199803021225.HAA29946@spooky.rwwa.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Amancio Hasty cc: Alex Belits , Eivind Eklund , khansen@njcc.com, "Ron G. Minnich" , hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:35:59 PST." <199803021135.DAA10153@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 07:25:04 -0500 From: Robert Withrow Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hasty@rah.star-gate.com said: :- Traditional scripting languages for unix, sh, csh , tcsh are a bit :- antiquated and downright awkward to work with. :- Java is extensible and its supporting structure is intensively being :- worked on . But old isn't necessarily bad, and Java isn't a scripting language. And scripting launguages have a very valuable role in this problem domain. Also, for a view of where scrpting languages live in modern design methodologies, see http://www-dse.doc.ic.ac.uk/%7Enp2/patterns/scripting/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Withrow, R.W. Withrow Associates, Swampscott MA, witr@rwwa.COM To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 04:50:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07243 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:50:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA07238 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:50:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA22797; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:51:58 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:51:56 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: Niall Smart cc: Amancio Hasty , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Niall Smart wrote: > > > I never said that anything that configures system remotely should be > > > written in shell. Perl is adequate, but I rather prefer C++, which is > > > still more flexible and efficient than java. > > > > Yeap, I have to agree that C++ is significantly faster than Java for system > > configuration 8) > > I disagree, C++ may be faster than Java, but that difference is not > significant when doing GUI-type system administration. On the client side -- maybe, but when I am remotely changing something on a system that already is in some kind of trouble (and possibly has a lot of resources used up), I will rather depend on something small, fast, and preferrably kept running, and sleeping most of time. -- Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 05:02:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA09503 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:02:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA09496 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:02:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA10442; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:22:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803021222.EAA10442@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 12:17:04 GMT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 04:22:24 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Cool, you caught my smiley 8) Yes, I agree that there shouldn't be any performance difference between C++ and Java admin tool except when we are dealing with very large numbers of items;however, for a newbie or a single seat work station or a small ISP there shouldn't be any performance difference between java and c++ based tools. Amancio > On Mar 2, 4:08am, Amancio Hasty wrote: > } Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. > > > > > > I never said that anything that configures system remotely should be > > > written in shell. Perl is adequate, but I rather prefer C++, which is > > > still more flexible and efficient than java. > > > > Yeap, I have to agree that C++ is significantly faster than Java for system > > configuration 8) > > I disagree, C++ may be faster than Java, but that difference is not > significant when doing GUI-type system administration. > > > Niall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 05:08:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10480 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:08:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA10458 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:08:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA10631; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:07:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803021307.FAA10631@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Alex Belits cc: Niall Smart , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 04:51:56 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 05:07:31 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, all this is academic for "we ain't got no" application developers in this group . Cheers, Amancio > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Niall Smart wrote: > > > > > I never said that anything that configures system remotely should be > > > > written in shell. Perl is adequate, but I rather prefer C++, which is > > > > still more flexible and efficient than java. > > > > > > Yeap, I have to agree that C++ is significantly faster than Java for system > > > configuration 8) > > > > I disagree, C++ may be faster than Java, but that difference is not > > significant when doing GUI-type system administration. > > On the client side -- maybe, but when I am remotely changing something on > a system that already is in some kind of trouble (and possibly has a lot > of resources used up), I will rather depend on something small, fast, > and preferrably kept running, and sleeping most of time. > > -- > Alex > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 05:21:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11933 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:21:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA11921 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:21:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA22936; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:22:28 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:22:27 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: Amancio Hasty cc: Niall Smart , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-Reply-To: <199803021307.FAA10631@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Well, all this is academic for "we ain't got no" application developers > in this group . Actually I'm trying to do something with the lists handling and transactions through HTTP, and I hope, either me or someone else will write an interface/framework that will allow route/replicate/process HTTP-based transactions over the network to implement "mass-update" and monitoring for the network (NIS-backward or SNMP-like administration protocol over HTTP). Nothing to speak of yet, except mentioned by me multiple times before my HTTP server with its API, suitable for transactions mechanism. -- Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 05:50:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15784 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:50:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA15769 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:50:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA03958; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:49:31 +0200 (IST) Message-ID: <19980302154931.26325@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:49:31 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff References: <34FA5E08.611585A4@san.rr.com> <353.888824865@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <353.888824865@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 11:47:45PM -0800 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You, Jordan K. Hubbard, were spotted writing this on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 11:47:45PM -0800: > > I'd like to second this. It is a small thing, but for the sake of > > consistency as well as good design I'd like to see it changed. > > Actually, this would be far from consistent - it would confuse the > piss out of folks who've become more than used to /usr/X11R6 as the > location for X libraries and binaries over the last 3 years. Changing > it at this juncture would only be a recipe for complete and utter > chaos. Then add a /etc/make.conf non-default flag to do this. It would decide whether USE_X11 means /usr/X11R6 or /usr/local/X11R6. Then you won't confuse anyone who's used to the mess that /usr/X11R6 is, and you add an option to do /usr/local/X11R6 cleanly for those who do that. This would be also useful for folks fiddling with X sources and rebuilding all or part of the tree often. It also helps progress towards a much useful setup with /usr/X11R6 being ro (currently probably achievable with lots of hairy symlinks). Currently, and historically, /usr/X11R6 is a mess. Doesn't mean it has to stay so forever. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 06:03:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18624 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:03:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA18616 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:03:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02599; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:59:48 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <34FABB52.719145FE@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:59:47 +0200 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: Alex Belits , Eivind Eklund , khansen@njcc.com, "Ron G. Minnich" , hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. References: <199803021208.EAA10350@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amancio Hasty wrote: > ? On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > ? > ? ? I don't have many comments --- well okay at work we got a 20000 line > ? ? system install thingy all written in shell try debugging that 8) > ? ? ?granted thats one bad extreme? > ? ? > ? ? Traditional scripting languages for unix, sh, csh , tcsh are > ? ? a bit antiquated and downright awkward to work with. > ? ? > ? ? Java is extensible and its supporting structure is intensively being > ? ? worked on . > ? > ? I never said that anything that configures system remotely should be > ? written in shell. Perl is adequate, but I rather prefer C++, which is > ? still more flexible and efficient than java. > > Yeap, I have to agree that C++ is significantly faster than Java for system > configuration 8) > > BTW: you forgot who was going to write the nice X stuff for a C++ based program > that is if we are still talking about a GUI tool . > > Cheers, > Amancio > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message I want only to remember you, that set of C++ classes + GUI Tcl Tool + Tcl/C glue, which allow easy write web-based cgi exist now in alpha version. for more info, look at http://cam.grad.kiev.ua/~rssh/admin/admin.html -- @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 06:35:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21898 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:35:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA21879 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:35:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199803021430.JAA15071@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:35:27 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: help - make world fails In-Reply-To: <199803012317.QAA04517@usr08.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > o NFS client locks need to be remembered locally so that > they can be reasserted in case of a server crash. This > is my way of saving the state. Isn't NFS stateless. Sonetimes I wonder what Sun was thinking trying implement a stateless design over a network. -- Jamie Bowden Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 08:08:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01868 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:08:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (root@fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01825 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:08:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu) Received: from win95.local.sunyit.edu (A-T34.rh.sunyit.edu [150.156.210.241]) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA19527; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:08:53 GMT Message-ID: <034901bd45f4$be086580$0600a8c0@win95.local.sunyit.edu> From: "Alfred Perlstein" To: "Niall Smart" , , "FreeBSD Hackers" Subject: Re: CVSup failing... Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:02:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG i think there are statically compiled versions of cvsup and if you don't have X installed try the non-gui version http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/cvsup.html has links to some reduced forms and statically compiled binaries. -Alfred -----Original Message----- From: Niall Smart To: freebsd@isvara.net ; FreeBSD Hackers Date: Monday, March 02, 1998 3:24 AM Subject: Re: CVSup failing... >On Mar 2, 11:28am, freebsd@isvara.net wrote: >} Subject: CVSup failing... >> I've installed the cvsup packages, and tried to get it up and >> running. >> >> I try running it, I get: >> ld.so failed: Can't find shared library "libXaw.so.6.1" >> >> I've tried finding this library file with locate, but it isn't there. >> Any pointers? > >libXaw is part of the X Window System, if you aren't using X then either >install it or pull down the source for cvsup and see if you can build >it without support for X. If you already have X installed run ldconfig >/usr/X11R6/lib as root. > >Niall > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 08:20:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03027 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:20:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03016 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:20:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08433; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:20:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd008391; Mon Mar 2 09:20:18 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA11123; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:20:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803021620.JAA11123@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: help - make world fails To: jamie@itribe.net (Jamie Bowden) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:20:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803021430.JAA15071@gatekeeper.itribe.net> from "Jamie Bowden" at Mar 2, 98 09:35:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > o NFS client locks need to be remembered locally so that > > they can be reasserted in case of a server crash. This > > is my way of saving the state. > > Isn't NFS stateless. Sonetimes I wonder what Sun was thinking trying > implement a stateless design over a network. File sharing is, file locking isn't. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 08:42:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06218 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:42:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06212 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:42:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26991; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:42:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd026940; Mon Mar 2 09:42:17 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA12516; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:42:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803021642.JAA12516@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. To: witr@rwwa.com (Robert Withrow) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:42:08 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, eivind@yes.no, khansen@njcc.com, rminnich@Sarnoff.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803021225.HAA29946@spooky.rwwa.com> from "Robert Withrow" at Mar 2, 98 07:25:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > But old isn't necessarily bad, and Java isn't a scripting language. And > scripting launguages have a very valuable role in this problem domain. ??? You must not be running the same JAVA *interpreter* I run... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 08:52:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07224 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:52:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.91.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA07219 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:52:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from trojanhorse.pr.watson.org (trojanhorse.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.10]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA18208; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:51:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:52:57 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@trojanhorse.pr.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Jamie Bowden cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: help - make world fails In-Reply-To: <199803021430.JAA15071@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > o NFS client locks need to be remembered locally so that > > they can be reasserted in case of a server crash. This > > is my way of saving the state. > > Isn't NFS stateless. Sonetimes I wonder what Sun was thinking trying > implement a stateless design over a network. Sandberg, et. al, "Design and Implementation of the Sun Network Filesystem", ~1985? "The NFS uses a stateless protocol. The parameters to each procedure call contain all of the information necessary to complete the call, and the server does not keep track of any past requests. This makes crash recovery very easy; when a server crashes, the client resends NFS requests until a response is received, and the server does no crash recovery at all..." "...Using a stateless protocol allows us to avoid complex crash recovery and simplifies the protocol... In fact the client can not tell the difference between a server that has crashed and recovered, and a server that is slow." This said, of course, my clients still crash when the server goes down and something happens on the client (i.e., a call to mount, df, quota, or something :). The problem with stateless is, of course, that not all concepts associated with file system access are representable in a stateless way -- such as locking. Coda, for example, retains a lot of state with regards to cache information on both client and server side. The client retains the file (:)), and the server forms a callback so that it can notify the client on a change. Coda does not have a concept of locking, though, as it was determined (:O) that most of the file activity of interest involved sequential one-time read followed by sequential one-time write, no shared access, etc. This is true in the general case, but resoundingly not true for the specific cases where people try to use locking :). I'd love to see someone write a simple lock manager for Coda to allow exclusive advisory locking support (posix-style) based on some kind of distributed quorum database or something. Robert N Watson Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 10:01:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15901 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:01:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15895 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29017; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:11:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980302131116.16465@vmunix.com> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:11:16 -0500 From: Mark Mayo To: Amancio Hasty , Alex Belits Cc: Niall Smart , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. References: <199803021307.FAA10631@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199803021307.FAA10631@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 05:07:31AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 05:07:31AM -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Well, all this is academic for "we ain't got no" application developers > in this group . :-) As it turns out, myself and 3 others will be attempting a FreeBSD GUI admin system (client/server) over the summer for a course credit. Right now, the initial design is leaning towards using a C++ server and a Java client talking to it over an established protocol. Likely going to be using LDAP for distribution, etc, as Terry suggested in a much earlier post. So, wait til summer and then we'll see what happens. :-) With my project, and the 2 others that are going on right now (HTTP based, and the Tcl/Tk one) by fall I suspect there will be some rather neat administration tools for FreeBSD. Yeah! -Mark > > > Cheers, > Amancio > > > > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Niall Smart wrote: > > > > > > > I never said that anything that configures system remotely should be > > > > > written in shell. Perl is adequate, but I rather prefer C++, which is > > > > > still more flexible and efficient than java. > > > > > > > > Yeap, I have to agree that C++ is significantly faster than Java for system > > > > configuration 8) > > > > > > I disagree, C++ may be faster than Java, but that difference is not > > > significant when doing GUI-type system administration. > > > > On the client side -- maybe, but when I am remotely changing something on > > a system that already is in some kind of trouble (and possibly has a lot > > of resources used up), I will rather depend on something small, fast, > > and preferrably kept running, and sleeping most of time. > > > > -- > > Alex > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 10:38:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18881 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:38:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18872 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:38:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11939; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:37:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803021837.KAA11939@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Mark Mayo cc: Alex Belits , Niall Smart , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:11:16 EST." <19980302131116.16465@vmunix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:37:12 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Most Cool! If you haven't already check out ACE which should be easier to deal with FreeBSD upcoming elf support. Good Luck! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 10:54:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21826 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:54:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (65z1DJLrMSossLiZcsQVrsOCrwZQ1c8g@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA21816 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:54:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from oak75.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.16.20] ([4kBefdMkoIOnJo9VfpJstS/emfECHkfB]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0y9aM6-0005BP-00; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:54:26 +0000 Received: from njs3 by oak75.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0y9aLf-0003rc-00; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:53:59 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:53:58 +0000 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert "Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool." (Mar 2, 4:42pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mar 2, 4:42pm, Terry Lambert wrote: } Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. > > But old isn't necessarily bad, and Java isn't a scripting language. And > > scripting launguages have a very valuable role in this problem domain. > > You must not be running the same JAVA *interpreter* I run... Since when has the manner in which a program is "executed" decided if it is a scripting langauge? C is translated into assembler which is interpreted by the hardware in my Intel processor, does that make C or assembler scripting langauges? No. What if I use the Bochs interpreter? Still no. You wouldn't make a distinction between imperative, functional and logic programming languages based on their execution mode, but rather in their approach to expressing relationships and algorithms, it is the same with scripting languages. Niall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 11:01:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22816 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:01:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22802 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:01:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01759; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd001757; Mon Mar 2 10:53:41 1998 Message-ID: <34FAFF3B.15FB7483@whistle.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:49:31 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith CC: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Kernel debugging: what's going on here? References: <199802280214.SAA00165@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG M > Whoops. OK, are we sure that "bp" points to the same type in both > cases? And more importantly, that bp->b_vp is expected to be the same > type? (Yes, this is *really* clutching at straws). There's not much > else short of a GDB bug that I can think of that would cause this. > many interrupts are still running.. the clock is still ticking.. I've seen a machine in DDB respond to pings. how are you allocating the new buffer? it looks like it got BZERO'd between the two.. did the malloc actually succeed? etc.etc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 11:01:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22976 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22937 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:01:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01819; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd001814; Mon Mar 2 10:55:18 1998 Message-ID: <34FAFF9C.59E2B600@whistle.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:51:08 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Kernel debugging: what's going on here? References: <19980228123253.24049@freebie.lemis.com> <199802280214.SAA00165@dingo.cdrom.com> <19980228124844.00033@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 18:14:02 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > >> On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 17:56:46 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > >>> Yes, I noticed. But rewriting the bp on the fly is not uncommon; quite > >>> a few device drivers do it, it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't done > >>> elsewhere rather than cloning the original. > >> > >> Sure, all sorts of things modify the buffer header. But you're still > >> missing the point: the processor is stopped here, it's in the > >> debugger. No instructions were executed between the two views. You > >> might just as well take a look at a dump. Since when does the content > >> of memory differ depending on where you look at it from? > > > > Whoops. OK, are we sure that "bp" points to the same type in both > > cases? > > Not any more :-) Somebody else replied first. > > > And more importantly, that bp->b_vp is expected to be the same type? > > Yes, it was. > > > (Yes, this is *really* clutching at straws). There's not much else > > short of a GDB bug that I can think of that would cause this. > > Thanks. I should have seen this myself, but sometimes you end up > looking in the wrong place. > > Greg > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message Ah struct vnode changed recently... didi you do a 'make depend' ? bet it didn't recompile some source... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 11:22:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26335 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:22:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from att.com (cagw2.att.com [192.128.52.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA26324 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:22:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sbabkin@dcn.att.com) From: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Received: by cagw2.att.com; Mon Mar 2 14:17 EST 1998 Received: from dcn71.dcn.att.com (dcn71.dcn.att.com [135.44.192.112]) by caig2.att.att.com (AT&T/GW-1.0) with ESMTP id OAA09457 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:21:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by dcn71.dcn.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:23:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, grog@lemis.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:23:50 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > ---------- > From: Terry Lambert[SMTP:tlambert@primenet.com] > > > > > I think Julian's SLICE code has something in that direction. > DPT > > > > supports INCREASING the size of a RAID-5 array by adding drives. > > > > > > How can that work? > > > > Something like > > - read N RAID blocks from K disks > > - compute new checksum for K+1 disks and write as less number > > of RAID blocks but each one of bigger size (K+1/K times) > > - add empty blocks at the end of RAID in the added space > > You would have to remember to grab the blocks to be relocated with > the same O(n) randomness as their allocation. 8-). > Huh ? Probably I've missed something about RAIDs. I've thought that, for example, RAID block 0 consists of blocks 0 of all the physical disks. And so on. And I've thought that RAID itself does not allocate any blocks, the upper level like filesystem or volume manager does it, RAID just makes chechsuming. Am I wrong again ? -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 11:40:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28466 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:40:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28411 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:40:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13270; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:37:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803021937.LAA13270@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Philippe Regnauld , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 00:52:57 PST." <488.888828777@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:37:11 -0800 From: Mike Smith Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA28429 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > "Now it'd be nice if"© a simple dialog box popped > > up during sysinstall saying, "hey, you chose to install X, you have > > less than N megabytes for /usr, but you have 3 Terabytes in > > /usr/local: [do you want to | you should ] create /usr/local/X11R6, > > and make a symlink in /usr ?" > > > > I might (*shudder*) even look at sysinstall's code (*tremble*) > > and see if I can do it myself, if there's interest. > > Talk to Mike Smith - he's already (*shudder* :-) in this area of the > code trying to figure out how to do proper sizing information for > everything, not just the X bits, and implement proper "you're 30% > done" progress bars. It sounds to me like what you want would fall > out of this fairly easily. The "newbie" install will actually get around that by taking the easy-but-bad way out and not assuming that you want to do anything fancy with your disk layout. I expect to wear a lot of flak about this from experienced users that would never use a "newbie" install, but I also hope to reduce the number of complaints from people who don't have enough space in /tmp or /var. For more advanced users, or those wanting a more traditional layout, the intention is to complain about space problems *before* starting the installation. A question - would it be desirable for X to be installed, by default, somewhere *else*, and just symlinked into /usr? Should it go in /usr/local, so that an experienced admin can assign a separate filesystem for this? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 11:53:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29867 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:53:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29854 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:52:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: (from asami@localhost) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA26193; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:52:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:52:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803021952.LAA26193@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> To: mike@smith.net.au CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199803021937.LAA13270@dingo.cdrom.com> (message from Mike Smith on Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:37:11 -0800) Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * A question - would it be desirable for X to be installed, by default, * somewhere *else*, and just symlinked into /usr? Should it go in * /usr/local, so that an experienced admin can assign a separate * filesystem for this? Yes. Actually, if you can do something like "if /usr/local is a separate filesystem from /usr or a symlink to a directory in a separate filesystem from /usr, then make /usr/X11R6 a symlink into /usr/local/X11R6", that will be great, but that's probably asking too much. :) Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 12:17:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02567 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:17:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ext1.ccas.ru (ext1.ccas.ru [193.233.208.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02543 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:16:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Andrey.Lopatenko@dials.ccas.ru) Received: from www.dials.ccas.ru (www.dials.ccas.ru [193.233.210.130]) by ext1.ccas.ru (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA22362 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:16:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from [193.233.210.147] by www.dials.ccas.ru (NTMail 3.03.0014/7.aabg) with ESMTP id ta051473 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:16:13 +0300 Message-ID: <002e01bd4617$bad14170$93d2e9c1@base.dials.ccas.ru> From: "Andrey Lopatenko" To: Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:13:47 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 13:00:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10562 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:00:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10557 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:00:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA13598; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:58:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803022058.MAA13598@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Christoph Kukulies cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: g77 - status? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 08:01:20 GMT." <199803020801.IAA00369@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 12:58:17 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Could someone give me a short brief-in on the issues related with > using g77 instead of f77 (f2c) under FreeBSD-2.2.5? Not much different, really. You call 'g77' rather than 'f77' to compile. > Can g77 be installed out of the box from the package? I did and it > seems so. Yup. > Does it use libf2c.a or does it have it's own runtime library? It still uses libf2c. > Has there been a problem with g77 under FreeBSD-2.2.2 ? We didn't have any. The resultant code seems to perform fairly similarly to that produced by f2c, but the error messages are generally better. There are some extra F90 language features that none of our users touched, so I can't speak for them. I would certainly recommend it just for the improved error reporting, and I suspect that the non-improvements in performance probably had more to do with the outrageously bogus code that we were feeding it than any shortcomings in the compiler itself. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 13:42:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20127 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:42:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20110 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:42:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA08730; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:12:18 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA12988; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:12:18 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980303081217.61608@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:12:17 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Julian Elischer Cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Kernel debugging: what's going on here? References: <19980228123253.24049@freebie.lemis.com> <199802280214.SAA00165@dingo.cdrom.com> <19980228124844.00033@freebie.lemis.com> <34FAFF9C.59E2B600@whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <34FAFF9C.59E2B600@whistle.com>; from Julian Elischer on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 10:51:08AM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 10:51:08 -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 18:14:02 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >>>> On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 17:56:46 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >>>>> Yes, I noticed. But rewriting the bp on the fly is not uncommon; quite >>>>> a few device drivers do it, it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't done >>>>> elsewhere rather than cloning the original. >>>> >>>> Sure, all sorts of things modify the buffer header. But you're still >>>> missing the point: the processor is stopped here, it's in the >>>> debugger. No instructions were executed between the two views. You >>>> might just as well take a look at a dump. Since when does the content >>>> of memory differ depending on where you look at it from? >>> >>> Whoops. OK, are we sure that "bp" points to the same type in both >>> cases? >> >> Not any more :-) Somebody else replied first. >> >>> And more importantly, that bp->b_vp is expected to be the same type? >> >> Yes, it was. >> >>> (Yes, this is *really* clutching at straws). There's not much else >>> short of a GDB bug that I can think of that would cause this. >> >> Thanks. I should have seen this myself, but sometimes you end up >> looking in the wrong place. > > Ah struct vnode changed recently... Right. > didi you do a 'make depend' ? > > bet it didn't recompile some source... Worse. I found the @ directory pointing into the wrong tree. Logical, once you uknow where to look, but I was really beginning to suspect gdb. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 13:44:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20465 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:44:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20421 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:44:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA02408; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:42:16 -0800 (PST) To: Alex Belits cc: Amancio Hasty , Eivind Eklund , khansen@njcc.com, "Ron G. Minnich" , hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 04:01:41 PST." Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:42:16 -0800 Message-ID: <2404.888874936@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I fail to see how ANY of this discussion brings us any closer to having the end product. We can discuss the relative merits of every programming language under the sun for the next ten years, but it won't get one line of code written. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 13:44:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20691 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:44:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pefstud.uniag.sk (pefstud.uniag.sk [193.87.98.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20468 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:44:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kostal@pefstud.uniag.sk) Received: from localhost (kostal@localhost) by pefstud.uniag.sk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01507 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:39:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from kostal@pefstud.uniag.sk) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:39:38 +0100 (CET) From: Ladislav Kostal To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: users limits Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello ! I would be very happy if someone could help me with this: There is for example user paul and I want to restrict him to use just one copy of ftp after 16.00 and irc after 18.00 and during weekends. (This is just example, real limitations would be more complex) How to do that ? How can I control number of processes ran by users ? I want to set limits for all users of course. (300+) Is there some software for that or have I to write it myself ? Thanks for your answers. Ladislav Kostal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 13:47:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21600 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:47:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21531 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:46:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA02453; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:45:56 -0800 (PST) To: Anatoly Vorobey cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:49:31 +0200." <19980302154931.26325@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:45:55 -0800 Message-ID: <2449.888875155@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Then add a /etc/make.conf non-default flag to do this. It would decide > whether USE_X11 means /usr/X11R6 or /usr/local/X11R6. Then you won't Why not simply redefine X11BASE then if that's what you want? It already exists.. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 13:50:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22895 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:50:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22759 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:50:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: (from asami@localhost) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA26547; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:49:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:49:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803022149.NAA26547@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> To: tarkhil@minas-tirith.pol.ru CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199803020905.MAA01190@minas-tirith.pol.ru> (message from Alex Povolotsky on Mon, 02 Mar 1998 12:05:09 +0300) Subject: Re: Cluster? From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Clusters on FreeBSD does exist? GREAT! * * Is it possible to get patches/whitepapers/etc. on it? We have a small one here too (only 20 machines). See http://now.cs.berkeley.edu/Td/ for details. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 14:17:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29190 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:17:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29135 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:17:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA08840; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:46:16 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA13247; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:46:09 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980303084608.56831@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:46:08 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from sbabkin@dcn.att.com on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 02:23:50PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 14:23:50 -0500, sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: >> ---------- >> From: Terry Lambert[SMTP:tlambert@primenet.com] >> >>>>> I think Julian's SLICE code has something in that direction. >> DPT >>>>> supports INCREASING the size of a RAID-5 array by adding drives. >>>> >>>> How can that work? >>> >>> Something like >>> - read N RAID blocks from K disks >>> - compute new checksum for K+1 disks and write as less number >>> of RAID blocks but each one of bigger size (K+1/K times) >>> - add empty blocks at the end of RAID in the added space >> >> You would have to remember to grab the blocks to be relocated with >> the same O(n) randomness as their allocation. 8-). >> > Huh ? Probably I've missed something about RAIDs. I've thought > that, for example, RAID block 0 consists of blocks 0 of all > the physical disks. And so on. And I've thought that RAID itself > does not allocate any blocks, the upper level like filesystem or > volume manager does it, RAID just makes chechsuming. Am I wrong again ? That's not the point. OK, we were talking about RAID 5 here, which also has parity blocks, but the point is that if you add another disk, you're effectively adding another block every n blocks in the file system address space. It requires some non-trivial data movement to rearrange all the data (more specifically, except for the first n (n = old number of drives) blocks, you must move *everything*, and you must recalculate parity for every stripe. My question ("How can that work?") was based on the misassumption that this would be too much work to be justifiable. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 14:26:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00641 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:26:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00633 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:26:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA02770; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:25:10 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Watson cc: Jamie Bowden , Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: help - make world fails In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:52:57 EST." Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:25:10 -0800 Message-ID: <2766.888877510@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > something :). The problem with stateless is, of course, that not all > concepts associated with file system access are representable in a > stateless way -- such as locking. Coda, for example, retains a lot of Or device special files... Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 14:33:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02281 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:33:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from att.com (cagw2.att.com [192.128.52.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA02219 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:32:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sbabkin@dcn.att.com) From: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Received: by cagw2.att.com; Mon Mar 2 17:28 EST 1998 Received: from dcn71.dcn.att.com (dcn71.dcn.att.com [135.44.192.112]) by caig2.att.att.com (AT&T/GW-1.0) with ESMTP id RAA25013 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:32:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by dcn71.dcn.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:35:05 -0500 Message-ID: To: grog@lemis.com Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:35:02 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > ---------- > From: Greg Lehey[SMTP:grog@lemis.com] > > My question ("How can that work?") was based on the misassumption that > this would be too much work to be justifiable. > It's still a lot less work than put everything to tape, drop current filesystems, drop current logical volumes, drop RAID group, create new RAID group, create new logical volumes, create new filesystems, restore everything from tape :-) -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 14:35:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03190 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:35:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03135 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:35:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08864; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:05:27 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA13408; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:05:26 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980303090526.18425@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:05:26 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from sbabkin@dcn.att.com on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 05:35:02PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 17:35:02 -0500, sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: >> ---------- >> From: Greg Lehey[SMTP:grog@lemis.com] >> >> My question ("How can that work?") was based on the misassumption that >> this would be too much work to be justifiable. > > It's still a lot less work than put everything to tape, drop current > filesystems, drop current logical volumes, drop RAID group, create > new RAID group, create new logical volumes, create new filesystems, > restore everything from tape :-) Exactly. That's why my question was based on a misassumption. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 14:47:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05151 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:47:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05140 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:47:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA02896; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:46:17 -0800 (PST) To: Mike Smith cc: Philippe Regnauld , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:37:11 PST." <199803021937.LAA13270@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:46:16 -0800 Message-ID: <2892.888878776@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > A question - would it be desirable for X to be installed, by default, > somewhere *else*, and just symlinked into /usr? Should it go in = > /usr/local, so that an experienced admin can assign a separate = > filesystem for this? I don't think that's such a good idea for now - enough will be changing with 2.2.6 that we want to keep POLA as intact as possible. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 14:56:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07735 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:56:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07707 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:56:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA22996; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:55:32 +0200 (IST) Message-ID: <19980303005531.07975@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:55:31 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff References: <19980302154931.26325@techunix.technion.ac.il> <2449.888875155@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <2449.888875155@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 01:45:55PM -0800 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You, Jordan K. Hubbard, were spotted writing this on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 01:45:55PM -0800: > > Then add a /etc/make.conf non-default flag to do this. It would decide > > whether USE_X11 means /usr/X11R6 or /usr/local/X11R6. Then you won't > > Why not simply redefine X11BASE then if that's what you want? It > already exists.. For at least two reasons: 1. It's a kludge, and that's definitely not what I want. /usr/local/X11R6 is _not_, logically, a X11BASE. A port may reasonably expect to find standard header files at $X11BASE/include, etc. 2. As one of consequences of it being a kludge, during 'make install' with such modified X11BASE, mtree will mirror /etc/mtree/BSD.x11.dist dir structure under /usr/local/X11R6 - a sight neither happy nor useful. One can define NO_MTREE, further kludging things up, of course... In a clean solution, you would either add an mtree file for /usr/local/X11R6, or invoke mtree on BSD.local.dist, or not invoke mtree, or do something else I'm not bright enough for... ;) I hope that sooner or later (sooner is better ;)) Xfree86 will change config/cf directory to discourage imake from believing there's only One True X hierarchy on the system. Then one'll be able to easily reroute all imake-built ports to /usr/local/X11R6 or wherever; and I believe a previous discussion showed that a lot of folks would be quite willing and happy to adapt to this; but if the problem of non-imake ports will stay as it is, one won't have an easy way to reroute all of _them_ into /usr/local/X11R6, and confusion will reign ;) So what'd bad about one tiny non-default /etc/make.conf switch, really? :) -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 14:59:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08347 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:59:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08301 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:59:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: (from asami@localhost) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA26967; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:59:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:59:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803022259.OAA26967@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: mellon@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <2449.888875155@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * > Then add a /etc/make.conf non-default flag to do this. It would decide * > whether USE_X11 means /usr/X11R6 or /usr/local/X11R6. Then you won't * * Why not simply redefine X11BASE then if that's what you want? It * already exists.. That's not the end of the story. You (at least) also need to change the definition of ProjectRoot in /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/config/site.def. Then you'll have problems with vendor binaries having /usr/X11R6 built in there. And you'll still have the problem of having the base stuff and add-ons sharing the same tree. Folks, we have been through this before, many times. It is an X issue, not a FreeBSD issue. Whatever we do to try to change it will only confuse more people (I know, I tried, and I confused the heck out of myself). The source of the problem lies is in the imake model (and config files). If someone feels strongly enough about it, go read the imake macros, and send the diff to David Dawes. As for others, please symlink /usr/X11R6 to wherever you want and be happy. ;) Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 15:17:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11586 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:17:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11565 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:17:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.2) id KAA19512; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:17:16 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980303101716.40425@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:17:16 +1100 From: David Dawes To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff References: <19980302154931.26325@techunix.technion.ac.il> <2449.888875155@time.cdrom.com> <19980303005531.07975@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <19980303005531.07975@techunix.technion.ac.il>; from Anatoly Vorobey on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:55:31AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:55:31AM +0200, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >I hope that sooner or later (sooner is better ;)) Xfree86 will change config/cf >directory to discourage imake from believing there's only One True X >hierarchy on the system. Then one'll be able to easily reroute all imake-built >ports to /usr/local/X11R6 or wherever; and I believe a previous discussion Don't hold your breath. As much as I'd like to see that functionality in the imake config, it isn't a priority for XFree86. We're kind of preoccupied with X servers, new and improved hardware drivers, and implementing our new X server design. It will only be implemented if someone who really wants it done does it (hmm, where have I heard that before :-). There have been volunteers several times in the past, but I've never seen an end result. In the past I've offered to assist with and review such an implementation. That offer still stands. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 15:21:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12980 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:21:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12884 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:21:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08660; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:21:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd008581; Mon Mar 2 16:21:04 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24739; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:21:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803022321.QAA24739@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. To: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:21:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Niall Smart" at Mar 2, 98 06:53:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > But old isn't necessarily bad, and Java isn't a scripting language. And > > > scripting launguages have a very valuable role in this problem domain. > > > > You must not be running the same JAVA *interpreter* I run... > > Since when has the manner in which a program is "executed" decided if > it is a scripting langauge? Uh, "day one"? > C is translated into assembler which is interpreted by the hardware > in my Intel processor, does that make C or assembler scripting langauges? > No. Right. No. It makes them compiled languages, or more formally, native instruction set languages. JAVA can be this... on JAVA chips. LISP can be this on Symbolics machines. > What if I use the Bochs interpreter? Still no. BOCHs is not an interpreter, it's a simulator. You are confusing interpretation, simulation, and emulation. > You wouldn't make a distinction between imperative, functional and logic > programming languages based on their execution mode, but rather in their > approach to expressing relationships and algorithms, it is the same with > scripting languages. Iterative programming is not ideally suited to interpretation. An interpretive language that allows it to be done anyway is a scripting language. Would you feel more comfortable if I discarded the term "scripting" in favor of "interpretive"? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 15:23:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13656 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:23:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13558 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18561; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:23:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd018540; Mon Mar 2 16:23:24 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24805; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:23:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803022323.QAA24805@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:23:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, grog@lemis.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "sbabkin@dcn.att.com" at Mar 2, 98 02:23:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > You would have to remember to grab the blocks to be relocated with > > the same O(n) randomness as their allocation. 8-). > > Huh ? Probably I've missed something about RAIDs. I've thought > that, for example, RAID block 0 consists of blocks 0 of all > the physical disks. And so on. And I've thought that RAID itself > does not allocate any blocks, the upper level like filesystem or > volume manager does it, RAID just makes chechsuming. Am I wrong again ? If I allocate N stripes on M devices, I have N/M stripes per device. If I add a device, I do not automagically end up with N/(M+1) stripes per device. I have to move some stripes around. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 15:27:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15094 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:27:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14637 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:26:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12283; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:26:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd012255; Mon Mar 2 16:26:13 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA25080; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:26:07 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803022326.QAA25080@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: users limits To: kostal@pefstud.uniag.sk (Ladislav Kostal) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:26:07 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Ladislav Kostal" at Mar 2, 98 10:39:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hello ! > > I would be very happy if someone could help me with this: > > There is for example user paul and I want to restrict him to use just one > copy of ftp after 16.00 and irc after 18.00 and during weekends. > (This is just example, real limitations would be more complex) > How to do that ? How can I control number of processes ran by users ? > I want to set limits for all users of course. (300+) > > Is there some software for that or have I to write it myself ? > > Thanks for your answers. One way to do this would be hard links and groups. Another way to do it would be to write up your accounting requirements, translate it into data-driven code, and hack (or wrap) ftp and irc. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 15:53:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21995 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:53:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21947 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:53:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199803022353.PAA21947@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA059402832; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:53:52 +1100 From: Darren Reed Subject: vnodes for sockets. To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:53:52 +1100 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is it possible to associate a vnode with a socket ? if so, (or just for unix domain sockets), do the various VOP functions such as VOP_WRITE work properly with them ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 15:54:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22335 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:54:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hypermart.net (qmailr@ns.hypermart.net [207.69.194.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA22205 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:54:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anonymous@hypermart.net) Received: (qmail 22349 invoked by uid 32767); 2 Mar 1998 23:21:46 -0000 Date: 2 Mar 1998 23:21:46 -0000 Message-ID: <19980302232146.22348.qmail@hypermart.net> Organisation: Unknown From: projects@hotmail.com (Eric Stewart) To: projects@hotmail.com (Eric Stewart) Subject: Read it, print it, read it again! Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello! You probably are familiar with the "spamming mail" phenomenon, the unsolicited e-mail that you receive, almost every 2-3 days, and erase always, without forcing your eyes to read it's content. If you do that, you act like me and everybody else who uses the e-mail resources on the Internet! My name is Eric, I'm a 27-years-old programmer-annalist, and part-time student. As a rule, I delete all unsolicited "junk" e-mail and use my account primarily for business and school. I received what I assumed was this same e-mail countless times and deleted it each time. About two months ago I received it again and, because of the catchy subject line, I finally read it. Afterwards, I thought, "OK, I'm going to try this, I can certainly afford to invest $20 and, on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with making a little extra cash." I followed the enclosed instructions, mailed four $5 bills and, after receiving the reports, started to advertise on the Internet, using the e-mail system. I was not prepared for the results. Everyday, for the last six weeks, my postal box has been overflowing with $5 bills! In the early stage, I was really enthusiastic when, for one week period of time, I received more then $600 worth of letters, but now I'm stunned by all the money that keeps rolling in! You don't have to be a computer wizard. If you can open an envelope and send an e-mail message, then you're on your way to the bank! I promise you, if you follow the directions in this e-mail and be prepared to eventually set aside about an hour each day to follow up, you will make at least as much money as I did. Take the time to print and read this file so you'll understand how easy it is! Yours sincerely, Eric ============================================= -$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$- ============================================= This is a LEGAL, MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. Print this letter, read the directions, THEN READ IT AGAIN! ============================================= You are about to embark on the most profitable and unique program you may ever see. Many times over, it has demonstrated and proven its ability to generate large amounts of cash. This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever-growing on-line population desirous of additional income. This is a legitimate, LEGAL, money-making opportunity. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail and go to the bank! This truly is the lucky break you've been waiting for! Simply follow the easy instructions in this letter, and your financial dreams will come true! When followed correctly, this multi-level marketing program works perfectly... 100% EVERY TIME! Thousands of people have used this program to: - Raise capital to start their own business - Pay off debts - Buy homes, cars, etc. This is your chance, don't pass it up! ============================================= ============================================= OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM --------------------------------------------- This is what you will do to reach financial freedom: You will send thousands of people a product for $5.00 that cost next to nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, you will increase your business building your down line and selling the products (reports). Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi-level business online (via your computer). The products in this program are a series of four business and financial reports costing $5.00 each. Each order you receive via "snail mail" will include : - $5.00 cash (US Currency) - the name and number of the report they are ordering - the e-mail address where you will e-mail them the report they ordered. To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer. THAT'S IT! The $5.00 is yours! This is the EASIEST multi-level marketing business anywhere! FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER AND BE PREPARED TO REAP THE STAGGERING BENEFITS!!! ============================================= ============================================= I N S T R U C T I O N S --------------------------------------------- This is what you MUST do : 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below. - For each report, send $5.00 US CASH, the NAME & THE NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. - When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports. You will need all four reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. - Usually within 10 days you will receive, via e-mail, the four reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will LOSE OUT on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the four reports, take this advertisement and remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 50 grand! c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. f. Insert your name and address in the REPORT #1 position. PLEASE, MAKE SURE YOU COPY EVERYONE'S NAME AND ADDRESS ACCURATELY!!! 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the instruction portion of this letter. 4. Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the WORLDWIDE WEB! Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Another avenue witch you could use for advertising is e-mail lists. You can buy these lists for under $20 / 20,000 addresses or you can pay someone a minimal charge to take care of it for you. 5. For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. That's IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive this report! ============================================= ============================================= A V A I L A B L E R E P O R T S --------------------------------------------- ORDER EACH REPORT BY NUMBER AND NAME! Important notes : - ALWAYS SEND $5.00 CASH FOR EACH REPORT (checks not accepted) - Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper - On one of those sheets of paper, include (a) the number and name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your postal address. It is suggested that you rent a mailbox addressed to an assumed "company" name to avoid your name and home address being sent to millions of people. Order your reports from the companies listed below. REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" =================================== Order REPORT #1 from : U&I Communications P.O. Box 1442 Montreal, QC, H5A 1H4 ----------------------------------- REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" =================================== Order REPORT #2 from : One Shot Productions 23073 Pedernales Canyon Tr. Spicewood, TX 78669 ----------------------------------- REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" =================================== Order REPORT #3 from : A.C.M. Advertising P.O. Box 1423 Randolph, MA 02368 ----------------------------------- REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS" =================================== Order REPORT #4 from : A&C Netware Sales P.O. Box 1541 Corona, CA 91718-1541 ----------------------------------- To order your report, edit and print the suggested letter, below. =================================== ABC Sales (c) P.O. Box XXXX City, State, Zip Code ____________________________________________________________ Month Day, Year XYZ Sales (a) P.O. Box XXXX City, State, Zip Code Subject : Report order Madam, Sir, We want to confirm you our intention to buy your REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES." (a) You will find enclosed the amount of $5.00 US. Please e-mail us the report at : youremail@address.here . (b) Yours truly, (your signature) Your Name, President ABC Sales (c) ----------------------------------- ============================================= ============================================= HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL M A K E Y O U $$ M O N E Y $$ --------------------------------------------- Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level (placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response). Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANISATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below. 1st level - your 10 members with $5................................$50 2nd level - 10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)...................$500 3rd level - 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)..............$5,000 4th level - 10 members from those 1000 ($5 x 10,000)...........$50,000 THIS TOTALS....................................................$55,550 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE! ============================================= ============================================= T I P S F O R S U C C E S S --------------------------------------------- * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because : When you receive a $5.00 order, you MUST send out the requested product / report to comply with the US Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the US Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, witch state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received." * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ============================================= ============================================= Y O U R S U C C E S S G U I D E L I N E --------------------------------------------- Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success : If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2. If you don't, continue advertising until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! ============================================= ============================================= W O R D F R O M T H E M A K E R O F T H E $$$$$ P R O G R A M $$$$$ --------------------------------------------- By the time you read the information and look over the reports, you will conclude that such a program, and one that is legal could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little bit about myself. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979, my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful, but they just were not working. Finally I figured out that it was not me, but rather the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economic growth that had been with us since 1945. I don’t have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate, because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more small business failures and bankruptcy than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including methods of making money will never allow you to move up a get rich. Inflation will see to that! You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life! With no risk and with just a little bit of effort, you can make more money in the next few months than have ever imagined! I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, or that of anyone else who participates in this program. I have already made OVER FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program. Follow the program EXACTLY AS IT IS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to send a copy of this exciting program to everyone you can think of. Do not hesitate about sending only a few dozen programs in the beginning. One of the people you send out 5,000... and your name will be on every one of them. REMEMBER THOUGH : The more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. So, my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials, and the opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS NOW UP TO YOU! I am enjoying an early, secure retirement on the fortune I made by sending out this program. You, too, will make easy money in 20-90 days... if you follow the simple steps outlined in this mailing. To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial decisions as never before, go into business, invest, retire or take a vacation. No longer will the lack of money hold you back. However, very few people reach financial independence because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say NO than to say YES, and this is the question you must now answer : Will you ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you don’t think this is a spectacular opportunity, then re-read this material for you have missed something. I should also point out this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. THIS IS NOT A CHAIN LETTER! You have probably received chain letters asking you to send money, on faith that someone might break the chain makes them quite unattractive. You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product form you, they reproduce more and sell them. It’s simple free enterprise. As you have seen from the enclosed material, the product is a series of four (4) financial and business reports. The information contained in these reports will only help you on making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you for many other business decisions you will make in the years ahead. You are also buying the right to reprint all reports, which will be ordered from you. The concise one and two page reports can be easily reproduced at a local copy center for about 3 cents a copy. GOOD LUCK WITH THE PROGRAM AND GOD BLESS YOU! Edward L. Green ============================================= ============================================= T E S T I M O N I A L S --------------------------------------------- This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail". I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby". I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM. Frank T., Bel-Air, MD The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. Loren A. Montano, Toronto, ON Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return. Maria Negretta, Lansing, MI This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good luck and happy spending! Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!!!!! ============================================= -$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$-$- ============================================= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 17:47:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06919 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:47:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from spooky.rwwa.com (rwwa.com [198.115.177.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06792 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:45:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from witr@spooky.rwwa.com) Received: from spooky.rwwa.com (localhost.rwwa.com [127.0.0.1]) by spooky.rwwa.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01700; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:45:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from witr@spooky.rwwa.com) Message-Id: <199803030145.UAA01700@spooky.rwwa.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Terry Lambert cc: witr@rwwa.com (Robert Withrow), hasty@rah.star-gate.com, abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, eivind@yes.no, khansen@njcc.com, rminnich@Sarnoff.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 16:42:08 GMT." <199803021642.JAA12516@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:45:42 -0500 From: Robert Withrow Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I said: :- Java isn't a scripting language. tlambert@primenet.com said: :- ??? :- You must not be running the same JAVA *interpreter* I run... Terry: "interpreted" is not a synonym for "scripting language". If it were then C, BASIC, PL1, PASCAL, and probably COBOL would be called scripting languages, since they all run or have been interpreted. But lets not debate this further on hacker. Besides, I don't consider *this* issue debatable. Sorry. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Withrow, R.W. Withrow Associates, Swampscott MA, witr@rwwa.COM To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 18:07:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09555 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:07:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA09468 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:07:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 4996 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 01:48:19 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980303084608.56831@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:48:19 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 02-Mar-98 Greg Lehey wrote: ... > That's not the point. OK, we were talking about RAID 5 here, which > also has parity blocks, but the point is that if you add another disk, > you're effectively adding another block every n blocks in the file > system address space. It requires some non-trivial data movement to > rearrange all the data (more specifically, except for the first n (n = > old number of drives) blocks, you must move *everything*, and you must > recalculate parity for every stripe. Not quite. The [parity is not in the filesystem. It is in the ``device''. The filesystem sees a plain, old LBA addressable ``disk''. If a RAID-5 array grows, the ``disk'' will grow by having its last block address be (old_size - 1) + increment. > My question ("How can that work?") was based on the misassumption that > this would be too much work to be justifiable. ``Justifiable'' is a relative term. If the cost is 30% reduction in perfromance vs. shutdown of service for 2 hours, that may be real cheap. Some of the systems we work on measure downtime in minutes/year, and number of shutdowns in once/several_years. In that scenario, a customer may find this ability, as complex as it may be, quite attractive. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 18:11:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10499 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:11:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA10470 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:11:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 5020 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 01:51:59 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:51:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, grog@lemis.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 02-Mar-98 sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: >> ---------- >> From: Greg Lehey[SMTP:grog@lemis.com] >> >> My question ("How can that work?") was based on the misassumption that >> this would be too much work to be justifiable. >> > It's still a lot less work than put everything to tape, drop current > filesystems, drop current logical volumes, drop RAID group, create > new RAID group, create new logical volumes, create new filesystems, > restore everything from tape :-) If the tape still works, and is readable (have some good horror stories on dump/restore to tell). ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 18:42:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14263 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:42:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14243 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:41:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@cain.gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA10940 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:11:40 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199803030241.NAA10940@cain.gsoft.com.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Argh! Why the heck is this making ELF object files?! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:11:40 +1030 From: "Daniel O'Connor" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am trying to port a game called craft.. I hacked up a make file to get it working, but now its making ELF object files!?! [holly 1:00pm] /usr/ports/games/craft/work> gmake PREFIX=/usr/local/ building.o hcc/hcc -compiler /usr/bin/gcc -O2 -I/usr/X11/include -Dpic_cata_name=\\\"/usr/local//share/craft/pic_cata_new\\\" -Dpic_names=\\\"/usr/local//share/craft/pic\\\" -Dinfo_name=\\\"/usr/local//share/craft/infos\\\" -c building [holly 1:00pm] /usr/ports/games/craft/work> file building.o building.o: ELF 32-bit LSB relocatable, Intel 80386, version 1, not stripped [holly 1:00pm] /usr/ports/games/craft/work> /usr/bin/gcc -O2 -I/usr/X11/include -Dpic_cata_name=\"/usr/local/share/craft/pic_cata_new\\" -Dpic_names=\"/usr/local/share/craft/pic\" -Dinfo_name=\"/usr/local/share/craft/infos\" -c building.cc [holly 1:00pm] /usr/ports/games/craft/work> file building.o building.o: NetBSD/i386 object file not stripped Now you may think 'ahh, its that hcc thing!' but that is basically a glorified preprocessor, if I do - hcc/hcc -compiler cat building It outputs a C++ source file. Anyone want to tell me what the heck is going on here? I am running -current (FreeBSD holly.dons.net.au 3.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #6: Sun Mar 1 18:10:56 CST 1998 darius@holly.dons.net.au:/opt/src/sys/compile/HOLLY i386) And /usr/bin/gcc -v gives "gcc version 2.7.2.1" Which is pretty useless, but hey :) I feel I am missing the totally obvious.. Does someone want to tell me what it is? :) I last CVSuped on March 1st..(I built world then too) --------------------------------------------------------------------- |Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software | |http://www.gsoft.com.au | |The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to| |choose from. -- Andrew Tanenbaum | --------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 19:25:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20174 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:25:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20161 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:25:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20524; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:25:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd020496; Mon Mar 2 20:25:16 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA11963; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:25:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803030325.UAA11963@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: vnodes for sockets. To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:25:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803022353.PAA21947@hub.freebsd.org> from "Darren Reed" at Mar 3, 98 10:53:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Is it possible to associate a vnode with a socket ? Yes, this happens. > if so, (or just for unix domain sockets), do the various VOP functions > such as VOP_WRITE work properly with them ? No, this is not currently possible. The vp is subverted out of the VFS architecture using a struct fileops pointer specific to the sockets. The pipe code and the IPC code use the same approach. If you look at the standard system calls, (like read, in sys_generic.c), you will see the indirection through the struct fileops. The code is an artifact at the system call level. This means that the kernel internal vn_* calls will not work against the code. You will need to indirect the same way (ie: use struct file and dereference out the f_ops ops member, and call the function from the struct, directly). We hope to clean this up in the future (struct fileops must die). PTY's are unusable from the kernel because of them being implemented as a device; perhaps you can use a pty, instead. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 20:01:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23942 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:01:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tok.qiv.com (j/r/YRlaZnSLX7IX8seFFwORX0/UzFla@tok.qiv.com [204.214.141.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23912 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:00:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id WAA16571 for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:00:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01529 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:48:26 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:48:26 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Recommendation needed for real time monitor Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don't know if this is the right list for this, so point me in the right direction it I'm wrong. Given the available hardware supported by FreeBSD, what are your hardware recommendations for a machine capable of handling 31 simultaneous serial connections at 19200? This is a real-time machine monitoring situation, not dial up users. Data is bursty and non-compressed. I need to insure worst case with no buffer overruns. Thanks -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 20:17:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26874 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:17:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26865 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:17:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA14993; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:14:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803030414.UAA14993@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jay Nelson cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recommendation needed for real time monitor In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:48:26 CST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:14:52 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Don't know if this is the right list for this, so point me in the right > direction it I'm wrong. > > Given the available hardware supported by FreeBSD, what are your > hardware recommendations for a machine capable of handling 31 > simultaneous serial connections at 19200? This is a real-time machine > monitoring situation, not dial up users. Data is bursty and > non-compressed. I need to insure worst case with no buffer overruns. We need some more information to give you a really good answer; - maximum burst size - net data rate - peak data rate over a small period (eg. minimum/maximum interburst period). If the bursts are small (< 16 bytes) and the interburst period moderately long (so the net data rate is low), then multiport cards based on 16x50 UARTs will do the job. You might want to look at 16650's instead to give you more headroom. For larger bursts, you will want to look at "smart" cards with lots of buffering, eg. some of the supported Digiboard cards have 512 bytes or more per port. Also some of the Stallion and Specialix cards are worth checking out. 21 ports at 19200 is only 60k/sec, or ~120k port accesses/second for 16x50 UARTs (hit me if I screw up here Bruce 8). If you're streaming you get one interrupt every 14 bytes (approx), or a maximum of 4251 interrupts per second. Depending on the line discipline involved, most of your overhead is likely to be in the tty subsystem. More CPU will help there, but without actually measuring it I can't give you really useful numbers. (I would suggest starting with something like a P166 and experimenting.) It also depends on what else the machine will be doing. Busmastering peripherals will help (disk, network adapter, etc.) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 20:46:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01287 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:46:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01273; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:45:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA15161; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:44:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803030444.UAA15161@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) cc: mike@smith.net.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:52:43 PST." <199803021952.LAA26193@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:44:13 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > * A question - would it be desirable for X to be installed, by default, > * somewhere *else*, and just symlinked into /usr? Should it go in > * /usr/local, so that an experienced admin can assign a separate > * filesystem for this? > > Yes. > > Actually, if you can do something like "if /usr/local is a separate > filesystem from /usr or a symlink to a directory in a separate > filesystem from /usr, then make /usr/X11R6 a symlink into > /usr/local/X11R6", that will be great, but that's probably asking too > much. :) It's quite achievable; the question is (as Jordan asked) whether it's going to surprise people that *expect* it to be in /usr. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 20:52:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02872 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:52:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02670; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:51:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA05725; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:50:16 -0800 (PST) To: Mike Smith cc: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami), regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:44:13 PST." <199803030444.UAA15161@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:50:16 -0800 Message-ID: <5721.888900616@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It's quite achievable; the question is (as Jordan asked) whether it's > going to surprise people that *expect* it to be in /usr. I think attempting to move things to their own partitions in an attempt to outsmart the user also only misses the point. The *real* nut in need of cracking here is to simply supply enough sizing information that /usr or any other partition becomes as big (either as an advisory or as the default behavior for "auto" layout) as its contents merit. In other words, this problem does NOT call for a special case, it calls for the general case (of sizing any partition) being made more robust. :) Mike & I will be talking about this a fair bit before 2.2.6 comes out in an attempt to arrive at a workable solution. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 23:48:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21253 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:48:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA20748; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:40:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-announce) Received: by hub.freebsd.org (bulk_mailer v1.6); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:27:44 -0800 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19514 for freebsd-announce-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:27:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-announce@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA19508 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:27:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca34-11.ix.netcom.com [207.93.143.139]) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA27859 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/8.6.9) id XAA09791; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:26:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:26:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803030726.XAA09791@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: announce@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Tertiary Disk and GridPix From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Tertiary Disk: Scalable, Economical Storage meets the Art World Tertiary Disk is a storage system architecture that exploits the rapidly decreasing disk price to create large disk storage systems. The name comes from twin goals: to have the cost per megabyte and capacity of tape libraries and the performance of magnetic disk drives. We use commodity, off-the-shelf components to develop a scalable, low cost, terabyte-capacity disk system. Tertiary Disk uses PCs connected by a switched network to host a large number of disks. This architecture has several advantages over traditional disk arrays: it avoids the cost of custom designed components, is more flexible, and supports incremental expansion. Our prototype consists of 20 200MHz P6 PCs that host 370 8GB IBM disks and connected through 100Mbps switched Ethernet. The PCs run FreeBSD 3.0-current with Justin Gibbs' CAM patches. The main application of Tertiary Disk is the image server called "the Zoom Project." The Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco have thumbnail sketches of about 65,000 objects of art, which they have been providing over the Internet for two years with a search engine. The Tertiary Disk prototype is used to serve larger versions (up to 3,072 x 2048 pixels) of the images. Cal undergrads have cleaned up about 22,000 full-sized images so far that you can zoom in and zoom out via a HTML-based user interface called "GridPix". The range is from 1/8th actual size to 4X times actual size in powers of 2. If you want to see the images yourself, go to www.thinker.org (the museum site), click on the Imagebase area, then type in your favorite artist. When a list of thumbnails appear, click on any one with a red numeral next to it, and then click on GridPix or select your screen size from the menu. You can zoom in by clicking anywhere in the image, zoom out by clicking on the magnifying glass with the minus sign, and click on ? to learn more commands. Satoshi Asami asami@freebsd.org, asami@cs.berkeley.edu This is the moderated mailing list freebsd-announce. The list contains announcements of new FreeBSD capabilities, important events and project milestones. See also the FreeBSD Web pages at http://www.freebsd.org To unsubscribe from freebsd-announce, send a mail to majordomo@freebsd.org with the body unsubscribe freebsd-announce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-announce" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 2 23:56:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22741 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:56:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22727 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:56:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca34-11.ix.netcom.com [207.93.143.139]) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA27906; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/8.6.9) id XAA09887; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:55:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:55:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803030755.XAA09887@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: mike@smith.net.au CC: mike@smith.net.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199803030444.UAA15161@dingo.cdrom.com> (message from Mike Smith on Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:44:13 -0800) Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * > Actually, if you can do something like "if /usr/local is a separate * > filesystem from /usr or a symlink to a directory in a separate * > filesystem from /usr, then make /usr/X11R6 a symlink into * > /usr/local/X11R6", that will be great, but that's probably asking too * > much. :) * * It's quite achievable; the question is (as Jordan asked) whether it's * going to surprise people that *expect* it to be in /usr. Um, I haven't asked it to create a new partition or anything, just asked that it put in the same place as /usr/local. Since /usr/X11R6 and /usr/local are, by all accounts, very similar in nature, I think this is just natural. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 00:16:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA25680 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:16:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA25672 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:16:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA32589 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@freebsd.org); Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:15:16 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id XAA06604; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:57:44 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803022257.XAA06604@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: <19980303084608.56831@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 3, 98 08:46:08 am" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:57:44 +0100 (MET) Cc: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Greg Lehey wrote... > On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 14:23:50 -0500, sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: > >> ---------- > >> From: Terry Lambert[SMTP:tlambert@primenet.com] > >> > >>>>> I think Julian's SLICE code has something in that direction. > >> DPT > >>>>> supports INCREASING the size of a RAID-5 array by adding drives. > >>>> > >>>> How can that work? > >>> > >>> Something like > >>> - read N RAID blocks from K disks > >>> - compute new checksum for K+1 disks and write as less number > >>> of RAID blocks but each one of bigger size (K+1/K times) > >>> - add empty blocks at the end of RAID in the added space > >> > >> You would have to remember to grab the blocks to be relocated with > >> the same O(n) randomness as their allocation. 8-). > >> > > Huh ? Probably I've missed something about RAIDs. I've thought > > that, for example, RAID block 0 consists of blocks 0 of all > > the physical disks. And so on. And I've thought that RAID itself > > does not allocate any blocks, the upper level like filesystem or > > volume manager does it, RAID just makes chechsuming. Am I wrong again ? > > That's not the point. OK, we were talking about RAID 5 here, which > also has parity blocks, but the point is that if you add another disk, > you're effectively adding another block every n blocks in the file > system address space. It requires some non-trivial data movement to > rearrange all the data (more specifically, except for the first n (n = > old number of drives) blocks, you must move *everything*, and you must > recalculate parity for every stripe. > > My question ("How can that work?") was based on the misassumption that > this would be too much work to be justifiable. And apart from the work involved to get it implemented: how long would it take a RAIDset to get re-organised/enlarged. Reason #1 for doing things like this is because you don't want downtime. And I don't want to think about some hardware failure (say a disk) halfway during this process. That would really result in a dis[k]array ;-) 'Not everything that can be done should be done' Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 00:33:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA28643 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:33:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA28638 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:33:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 23625 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 08:34:19 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-030198 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803022257.XAA06604@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 00:34:18 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, (Greg Lehey) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 02-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... > And apart from the work involved to get it implemented: how long would it > take a RAIDset to get re-organised/enlarged. Reason #1 for doing things > like > this is because you don't want downtime. And I don't want to think about > some hardware failure (say a disk) halfway during this process. That > would > really result in a dis[k]array ;-) Nope... > 'Not everything that can be done should be done' Right!!! ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 00:39:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA29482 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:39:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29473 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:38:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA03606; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:36:04 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <34FBC0F1.74A067A6@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:36:04 +0200 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Alex Belits , Amancio Hasty , Eivind Eklund , khansen@njcc.com, "Ron G. Minnich" , hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. References: <2404.888874936@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I fail to see how ANY of this discussion brings us any closer to > having the end product. We can discuss the relative merits of every > programming language under the sun for the next ten years, but it > won't get one line of code written. > Interesting, that after posting info about alpha-version of my GUI config tool,I receive only one feedback from wich, who actually test it. > Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 00:49:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01275 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:49:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01265 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:49:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA09407; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:19:07 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA16738; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:19:06 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980303191906.19116@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:19:06 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980303084608.56831@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 05:48:19PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 17:48:19 -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > On 02-Mar-98 Greg Lehey wrote: > > ... > >> That's not the point. OK, we were talking about RAID 5 here, which >> also has parity blocks, but the point is that if you add another disk, >> you're effectively adding another block every n blocks in the file >> system address space. It requires some non-trivial data movement to >> rearrange all the data (more specifically, except for the first n (n = >> old number of drives) blocks, you must move *everything*, and you must >> recalculate parity for every stripe. > > Not quite. The [parity is not in the filesystem. It is in the ``device''. > The filesystem sees a plain, old LBA addressable ``disk''. If a RAID-5 > array grows, the ``disk'' will grow by having its last block address be > (old_size - 1) + increment. Yes, of course. Sorry for my sloppy terminology. >> My question ("How can that work?") was based on the misassumption that >> this would be too much work to be justifiable. > > ``Justifiable'' is a relative term. If the cost is 30% reduction in > perfromance vs. shutdown of service for 2 hours, that may be real cheap. > Some of the systems we work on measure downtime in minutes/year, and number > of shutdowns in once/several_years. In that scenario, a customer may find > this ability, as complex as it may be, quite attractive. Agreed. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 00:49:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01404 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:49:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.ftf.dk (root@mail.ftf.dk [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01318; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:49:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk) Received: from mail.prosa.dk ([192.168.100.2]) by firewall.ftf.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25097; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:38:36 +0100 Received: from deepo.prosa.dk (deepo.prosa.dk [192.168.100.10]) by mail.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA26575; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:57:47 +0100 (CET) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by deepo.prosa.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) id JAA22686; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:48:06 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19980303094806.16915@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:48:06 +0100 From: Philippe Regnauld To: Mike Smith Cc: Satoshi Asami , jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff References: <199803021952.LAA26193@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> <199803030444.UAA15161@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199803030444.UAA15161@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 08:44:13PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386 Organization: PROSA Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith writes: > > > > Actually, if you can do something like "if /usr/local is a separate > > filesystem from /usr or a symlink to a directory in a separate > > filesystem from /usr, then make /usr/X11R6 a symlink into > > /usr/local/X11R6", that will be great, but that's probably asking too > > much. :) > > It's quite achievable; the question is (as Jordan asked) whether it's > going to surprise people that *expect* it to be in /usr. IMHO, not if you _ask_ the user before you proceed, as in: Choices: 1. Auto size /usr ? 2. install in other partition and symlink ? -- -[ Philippe Regnauld / sysadmin / regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk / +55.4N +11.3E ]- «Pluto placed his bad dog at the entrance of Hades to keep the dead IN and the living OUT! The archetypical corporate firewall?» - S. Kelly Bootle, ("MYTHOLOGY", in Marutukku distrib) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 00:49:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01741 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:49:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.ftf.dk (root@mail.ftf.dk [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01669; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:49:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk) Received: from mail.prosa.dk ([192.168.100.2]) by firewall.ftf.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25110; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:39:14 +0100 Received: from deepo.prosa.dk (deepo.prosa.dk [192.168.100.10]) by mail.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA26579; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:58:24 +0100 (CET) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by deepo.prosa.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) id JAA22694; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:48:43 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19980303094843.04271@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:48:43 +0100 From: Philippe Regnauld To: Satoshi Asami Cc: mike@smith.net.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff References: <199803030444.UAA15161@dingo.cdrom.com> <199803030755.XAA09887@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199803030755.XAA09887@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU>; from Satoshi Asami on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 11:55:50PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386 Organization: PROSA Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Satoshi Asami writes: > * > * It's quite achievable; the question is (as Jordan asked) whether it's > * going to surprise people that *expect* it to be in /usr. > > Um, I haven't asked it to create a new partition or anything, just > asked that it put in the same place as /usr/local. Since /usr/X11R6 > and /usr/local are, by all accounts, very similar in nature, I think > this is just natural. For the sake of wasting bandwidth: I agree with this. -- -[ Philippe Regnauld / sysadmin / regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk / +55.4N +11.3E ]- «Pluto placed his bad dog at the entrance of Hades to keep the dead IN and the living OUT! The archetypical corporate firewall?» - S. Kelly Bootle, ("MYTHOLOGY", in Marutukku distrib) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 00:50:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01871 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:50:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01797 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:49:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA09403; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:17:57 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA16730; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:17:56 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980303191755.14264@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:17:55 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wilko Bulte Cc: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980303084608.56831@freebie.lemis.com> <199803022257.XAA06604@yedi.iaf.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803022257.XAA06604@yedi.iaf.nl>; from Wilko Bulte on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 11:57:44PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 23:57:44 +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > As Greg Lehey wrote... >> On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 14:23:50 -0500, sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: >>>> ---------- >>>> From: Terry Lambert[SMTP:tlambert@primenet.com] >>>> >>>>>>> I think Julian's SLICE code has something in that direction. >>>> DPT >>>>>>> supports INCREASING the size of a RAID-5 array by adding drives. >>>>>> >>>>>> How can that work? >>>>> >>>>> Something like >>>>> - read N RAID blocks from K disks >>>>> - compute new checksum for K+1 disks and write as less number >>>>> of RAID blocks but each one of bigger size (K+1/K times) >>>>> - add empty blocks at the end of RAID in the added space >>>> >>>> You would have to remember to grab the blocks to be relocated with >>>> the same O(n) randomness as their allocation. 8-). >>>> >>> Huh ? Probably I've missed something about RAIDs. I've thought >>> that, for example, RAID block 0 consists of blocks 0 of all >>> the physical disks. And so on. And I've thought that RAID itself >>> does not allocate any blocks, the upper level like filesystem or >>> volume manager does it, RAID just makes chechsuming. Am I wrong again ? >> >> That's not the point. OK, we were talking about RAID 5 here, which >> also has parity blocks, but the point is that if you add another disk, >> you're effectively adding another block every n blocks in the file >> system address space. It requires some non-trivial data movement to >> rearrange all the data (more specifically, except for the first n (n = >> old number of drives) blocks, you must move *everything*, and you must >> recalculate parity for every stripe. >> >> My question ("How can that work?") was based on the misassumption that >> this would be too much work to be justifiable. > > And apart from the work involved to get it implemented: how long would it > take a RAIDset to get re-organised/enlarged. Reason #1 for doing things like > this is because you don't want downtime. And I don't want to think about > some hardware failure (say a disk) halfway during this process. That would > really result in a dis[k]array ;-) Obviously there are a number of problems. But in fact it's not as difficult as it sounds. There's a problem with RAID 5 anyway if there's, say, a power failure during a write. After bringing it back up again, you can recognize that there's a parity error, but where? The question of reorganizing isn't as critical: run an asynchronous process which updates the array a stripe at a time. In addition to the data, let it write a magic number in the entire first sector following the updated slice. If the array does go down during the update, a recovery run can can find this magic number and know where to restart the reorganization. Not ideal, but better than nothing. Vinum offers another alternative: attach a second plex with the same data, maybe only a few megabytes at a time. During the time this area of the volume is being updated, the plex supplies a backup in case of failure. When the region is left, the plex is detached and reattached at the next point in the array. If anything goes down, the correct data will be in the auxiliary plex. Does that make sense? I'll try to formulate it more clearly if anybody has difficulty with the concepts. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 01:00:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03681 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:00:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03672 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:00:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA08237; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:58:53 -0800 (PST) To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua cc: Alex Belits , Amancio Hasty , Eivind Eklund , khansen@njcc.com, "Ron G. Minnich" , hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:36:04 +0200." <34FBC0F1.74A067A6@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 00:58:53 -0800 Message-ID: <8233.888915533@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Interesting, that after posting info about alpha-version of my GUI > config tool,I receive only one feedback from wich, who actually test > it. Well, I did actually test it myself when you first announced it but, to be perfectly honest, there were so few actual configuration screens currently implemented that I thought "hmmmm, nice idea but not enough here to see whether it's going to work out in actual practice or not so I will come back and look at it when there is more here." Perhaps that was unfair, but I think that's probably an accurate summation of how most folks will look at it. For what it's worth the same thing happened to "FreEasy" from our friends in Holland. It was complete enough to make some folks think "hmm, interesting!" but not complete enough to get folks raving about it loudly enough to get everyone else to jump in and look at it. In order to really catch the public attention with a configuration tool, you need to be able to configure enough stuff to be useful to the "working system administrator" in his daily job. That seems to be the case with all the other successful tools I've seen, anyway, and whether that's a nice situation or not it's also the way things simply are. :-( Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 01:28:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08758 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:28:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.dk [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08704 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:28:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk) Received: from mail.prosa.dk ([192.168.100.2]) by firewall.ftf.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25438 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:53:58 +0100 Received: from deepo.prosa.dk (deepo.prosa.dk [192.168.100.10]) by mail.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA26599 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:13:09 +0100 (CET) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by deepo.prosa.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) id KAA22946; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:03:28 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19980303100327.54315@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:03:27 +0100 From: Philippe Regnauld To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: CCD & booting on / Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386 Organization: PROSA Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stop me when I'm falling over the edge :-) I'm interested in getting a machine with having every partition as a CCD mirror -- including /. I'm aware of the usual problem of having / as a ccd: the bootblocks won't be able to read the partition, etc... But I remember, on one setup using _mirroring_ (and only in that case of course) where one of the disks died, I just rebooted single user on the remaining disk, changed the ccdconfig line to remove the defective disk, and ran ccdconfig with the same options -- and I was up and running again, with a 1-sided mirror :-) My question is: is there no workaround/unspeakable hack that could be made, with CCD in the kernel, for the bootblocks to read from the first of an N-part mirror, just to get past the boot ? Yeah, I could of course have / = 2 MB and symlink everything somewhere else :-P -- -[ Philippe Regnauld / Sysadmin ]- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 01:49:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11245 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:49:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from eiche.bik-gmbh.de (eiche.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA11238; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:48:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lgk@eiche.bik-gmbh.de) Received: from localhost (lgk@localhost) by eiche.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA04379; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:23:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:23:42 +0100 (CET) From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl To: Satoshi Asami cc: mike@smith.net.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff In-Reply-To: <199803030755.XAA09887@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Satoshi Asami wrote: > * > Actually, if you can do something like "if /usr/local is a separate > * > filesystem from /usr or a symlink to a directory in a separate > * > filesystem from /usr, then make /usr/X11R6 a symlink into > * > /usr/local/X11R6", that will be great, but that's probably asking too > * > much. :) > * > * It's quite achievable; the question is (as Jordan asked) whether it's > * going to surprise people that *expect* it to be in /usr. > > Um, I haven't asked it to create a new partition or anything, just > asked that it put in the same place as /usr/local. Since /usr/X11R6 > and /usr/local are, by all accounts, very similar in nature, I think > this is just natural. > But that's probably the most useful. /usr/local is likely to require an entire disk (no matter how large :). The current scheme seperates the X stuff quite well from whatever resides in /usr/local. Particularly if a system gets more and more mature it is quite helpful not to depend on disassembling hotchpotch. If the /usr/local and the X tree don't get that merged, that they couldn't reside on different partitions, it's probably not really important whether the X partition is mounted on /usr/X11R6 or /usr/local/X11R6. But even the installation procedure for unexperienced syadmins should make the installer aware of the problem. And of course most newbies need advice how to keep a system reorganisable without a completely new installion. Bad initial disk layouts are probably most bothersome. Directory softlinks are in most cases quite soft solutions and should be used in a non-negligable number only by people, who've understood all options of find(1-) and similar programs as well as all related libc functions and system calls. (I've seen too many sysadmins, who don't have sufficient knowledge about state of the systems they have to manage - principii obsta. |-) Lars To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 02:24:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA16344 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:24:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA16302; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:24:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17206; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:27:10 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:27:09 +0100 (CET) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: rssh@grad.kiev.ua, hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-Reply-To: <8233.888915533@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Interesting, that after posting info about alpha-version of my GUI > > config tool,I receive only one feedback from wich, who actually test > > it. > > Well, I did actually test it myself when you first announced it but, > to be perfectly honest, there were so few actual configuration screens > currently implemented that I thought "hmmmm, nice idea but not enough Hmmm.. But this is only a test version! IMHO, you shouldn't expect that someone writes the _complete_ stuff at this stage, where it wasn't decided yet which direction to take. If I were to write such a tool, I'd do it the same way as Ruslan did - to implement _some_ of the functions to let people get a feel of it, and wait for comments. Otherwise, I'd waste much time for writing the code which would eventually end up in /dev/null... So, what is the minimal set of tasks that should be implemented in a test version of admin tool, before you (or someone else from the team) will consider it "nice AND worth pursuing" ...? Andrzej Bialecki ---------------------+--------------------------------------------------------- abial@warman.org.pl | if(halt_per_mth > 0) { fetch("http://www.freebsd.org") } Research & Academic | "Be open-minded, but don't let your brains to fall out." Network in Poland | All of the above (and more) is just my personal opinion. ---------------------+--------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 02:32:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18180 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:32:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050ndd.san.rr.com (root@dt050ndd.san.rr.com [204.210.31.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA18144; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:32:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (dougdougdougdoug@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050ndd.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA05785; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:32:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <34FBDC53.9531562@san.rr.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 02:32:51 -0800 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE-0302 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG CC: Satoshi Asami , jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff References: <199803030444.UAA15161@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > > * A question - would it be desirable for X to be installed, by default, > > * somewhere *else*, and just symlinked into /usr? Should it go in > > * /usr/local, so that an experienced admin can assign a separate > > * filesystem for this? > > > > Yes. > > > > Actually, if you can do something like "if /usr/local is a separate > > filesystem from /usr or a symlink to a directory in a separate > > filesystem from /usr, then make /usr/X11R6 a symlink into > > /usr/local/X11R6", that will be great, but that's probably asking too > > much. :) > > It's quite achievable; the question is (as Jordan asked) whether it's > going to surprise people that *expect* it to be in /usr. I think part of the problem here is that different people are talking about different things. What I was talking about (and pardon me for not making myself clear) is installing any X related ports into /usr/local/X11R6/*, not installing all of X into /usr/local. My reasoning for this is simple. I like to back up /usr/local (et al) so that if my system goes belly up I can rebuild most of /usr from the default distribution and then paste /usr/local back in, thus saving myself hours and days of work. Others have mentioned the desire to make /usr/whatever ro, and other valid security concerns. Bowing to the "we don't want to confuse anybody" argument, I would settle for an option in /etc/make.conf. We have X11BASE now, how about X11PORTS? Yes, I realize this isn't really our problem, we've always done it that way, yadda yadda yadda. However this is an excellent case of what seems to me like a pretty simple change that would bring a lot of joy. :) Flame away, Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server. 5,328 clients and still growing. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 02:42:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19731 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:42:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19668 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:41:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca34-11.ix.netcom.com [207.93.143.139]) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA28131; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:41:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/8.6.9) id CAA12165; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:41:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:41:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803031041.CAA12165@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: Studded@san.rr.com CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-reply-to: <34FBDC53.9531562@san.rr.com> (message from Studded on Tue, 03 Mar 1998 02:32:51 -0800) Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * about different things. What I was talking about (and pardon me for not * making myself clear) is installing any X related ports into * /usr/local/X11R6/*, not installing all of X into /usr/local. My Let me make myself clear one more time; and I'll shut up. This is not a FreeBSD issue. It is *not possible* for us to change this without massive imake hacking. Talk with the XFree86 folks about it if you really care about it. Now back to our regularly scheduled Terry-o-rama.... Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 05:06:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06245 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:06:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06192; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:06:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA09325; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:05:46 -0800 (PST) To: Andrzej Bialecki cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , rssh@grad.kiev.ua, hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:27:09 +0100." Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 05:05:46 -0800 Message-ID: <9321.888930346@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Well, I did actually test it myself when you first announced it but, > > to be perfectly honest, there were so few actual configuration screens > > currently implemented that I thought "hmmmm, nice idea but not enough > > Hmmm.. But this is only a test version! IMHO, you shouldn't expect that > someone writes the _complete_ stuff at this stage, where it wasn't decided > yet which direction to take. I was being honest. Like I said, it's not necessarily _fair_ but these are the criteria that myself and others apply to administration tools. You think you've got it bad? Hah - just think about how the poor compiler writers feel - nobody looks at their stuff until it implements the _full_ programming language. :-) > So, what is the minimal set of tasks that should be implemented in a test > version of admin tool, before you (or someone else from the team) will > consider it "nice AND worth pursuing" ...? It should take over at least one important function currently filled by another (insufficiently sophisticated) tool. One example might be adduser/deluser/edituser functionality. Another might be an rc.conf editor/merge utility. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 06:00:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11486 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:00:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from att.com (cagw1.att.com [192.128.52.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA11345 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:59:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sbabkin@dcn.att.com) From: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Received: by cagw1.att.com; Tue Mar 3 08:52 EST 1998 Received: from dcn71.dcn.att.com (dcn71.dcn.att.com [135.44.192.112]) by caig1.att.att.com (AT&T/GW-1.0) with ESMTP id IAA29392 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:58:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by dcn71.dcn.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:01:15 -0500 Message-ID: To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, grog@lemis.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:01:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > ---------- > From: Terry Lambert[SMTP:tlambert@primenet.com] > > > Huh ? Probably I've missed something about RAIDs. I've thought > > that, for example, RAID block 0 consists of blocks 0 of all > > the physical disks. And so on. And I've thought that RAID itself > > does not allocate any blocks, the upper level like filesystem or > > volume manager does it, RAID just makes chechsuming. Am I wrong > again ? > > If I allocate N stripes on M devices, I have N/M stripes per device. > > If I add a device, I do not automagically end up with N/(M+1) stripes > per device. I have to move some stripes around. > Absolutely agreed, and what I wrote was how this moving around can IMO be implemented. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 06:02:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12122 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:02:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA11833 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:02:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA21909; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:01:44 +0200 (IST) Message-ID: <19980303160142.15863@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:01:42 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <199803031041.CAA12165@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU>; from Satoshi Asami on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:41:47AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Satoshi, You, Satoshi Asami, were spotted writing this on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:41:47AM -0800: > * about different things. What I was talking about (and pardon me for not > * making myself clear) is installing any X related ports into > * /usr/local/X11R6/*, not installing all of X into /usr/local. My > > Let me make myself clear one more time; and I'll shut up. > > This is not a FreeBSD issue. It is *not possible* for us to change > this without massive imake hacking. Talk with the XFree86 folks about > it if you really care about it. I'm afraid you misunderstood the argument. I was talking about X11 ports _that build without imake_. There're quite a few. rxvt(1) is a good example. These ports are now forced into /usr/X11R6 by USE_X11 (without USE_IMAKE); bsd.port.mk then selects PREFIX to be either /usr/X11R6 or /usr/local, based on whether USE_X11 is defined. PREFIX is then picked up either by configure or custom Makefile, etc... Again, an /etc/make.conf _non-default_ flag could force USE_X11 to mean PREFIX=/usr/local/X11R6 (or even specify the dir in the flag, instead of making it boolean), and force bsd.port.mk not to run mtree to reaffirm/recreate X11's dir structure in $PREFIX, or run it /usr/local, or whatever. And - lo and behold - at least the non-imake ports go cleanly into /usr/local/X11R6. (I guess if I repeat this a few more times, Jordan will agree just to shut me up ;)). -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 06:39:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17519 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:39:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from enteract.com (good@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA17390 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:39:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from good@enteract.com) Received: (from good@localhost) by enteract.com (8.8.8/8.7.6) id IAA20074; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:39:33 -0600 (CST) From: The Good/John Scholvin Message-Id: <199803031439.IAA20074@enteract.com> Subject: Help: 2.2.5 crashing on boot after I add RAM To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:39:32 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Please accept my apologies if thie list is inappropriate for this question! I tried comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc and didn't see anything. I've got an old Compaq Contura 4/25 laptop which I'm trying to install 2.2.5 on, and I've got a problem I can't figure out. The machine boots the GENERIC kernel fine when it has 8MB RAM installed. I've got an expansion RAM card which, when installed, ups the total to 20MB. The GENERIC kernel no longer boots; it never even gets to the probe stage. I figure, no problem, build a new kernel with option "MAXMEM=(20*1024)" after the example I found in LINT. With this new kernel, I now get a message before the probing starts which says BIOS basemem (639K) != RTC basemem (640K), setting to BIOS value BIOS extmem (15232K) != RTC extmem (15360K) Then the probing occurs, apparently successfully, and after the npx0 probe, I get this (typed in by hand, but I think I copied it correctly): Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode fault virtual address = 0x2c fault code = supervisor read, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0xf01a48b3 stack pointer = 0x10:0xefbffef8 frame pointer = 0x10:0xefbfff04 code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 current process = 0 (swapper) interrupt mask = panic: page fault syncing disks... done Any ideas? Obviously, it's idea of how much extended memory I have is confused. Is 20MB a valid option? Does that number need to be an even power of 2, or is there something else going on here? Also, I have another question since I originally posted. The laptop that's crashing is bare bones; I build the kernel on my desktop and ftp it over. If I config the crashing kernel -g and I want to analyze the crash dump from it on the other machine, can I do this? Which files do I need to transfer back to the desktop? Thanks in advance! John -- good@enteract.com is The Good, or probably John Scholvin speaking for them. OUR WEB SITE IS UP! Check out http://www.enteract.com/~good To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 07:11:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22660 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:11:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from att.com (cagw1.att.com [192.128.52.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA22653 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:11:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sbabkin@dcn.att.com) From: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Received: by cagw1.att.com; Tue Mar 3 09:35 EST 1998 Received: from dcn71.dcn.att.com (dcn71.dcn.att.com [135.44.192.112]) by caig1.att.att.com (AT&T/GW-1.0) with ESMTP id JAA20913 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by dcn71.dcn.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:44:54 -0500 Message-ID: To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, grog@lemis.com Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:44:50 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > ---------- > From: Simon Shapiro[SMTP:shimon@simon-shapiro.org] > > > It's still a lot less work than put everything to tape, drop current > > filesystems, drop current logical volumes, drop RAID group, create > > new RAID group, create new logical volumes, create new filesystems, > > restore everything from tape :-) > > If the tape still works, and is readable (have some good horror > stories on > dump/restore to tell). > I did nod added it to not make it too horrorous :-) Yes, I personally do not like tapes very much. DAT tapes seem to be reliable if you dispose the tapes after about 100 write-read cycles but even with them I had a completely terrible story when during restoring the tape was torn in drive (Archive drive and Verbatim tape). -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 07:12:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23114 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:12:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA23052 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:12:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jddst19+@pitt.edu) Received: from dysphoria.pain.com (ehdup-c3-8.rmt.net.pitt.edu [136.142.20.178]) by post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cispo-7.2.1.10) ID ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:12:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <24192.888937362.858108.15866@> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:02:42 -0500 From: John Duncan Subject: Re: CCD & booting on / To: , Reply-To: John Duncan X-Importance: normal X-Sensitivity: normal X-Priority: normal X-Mailer: TeamWARE Embla 2.03, Final, Build: 74 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Philippe Regnauld: >Stop me when I'm falling over the edge :-) > >I'm interested in getting a machine with having every partition >as a CCD mirror -- including /. > >I'm aware of the usual problem of having / as a ccd: the bootblocks >won't be able to read the partition, etc... > >But I remember, on one setup using _mirroring_ (and only in that >case of course) where one of the disks died, I just rebooted >single user on the remaining disk, changed the ccdconfig >line to remove the defective disk, and ran ccdconfig with the same >options -- and I was up and running again, with a 1-sided mirror :-) > >My question is: is there no workaround/unspeakable hack that >could be made, with CCD in the kernel, for the bootblocks to read >from the first of an N-part mirror, just to get past the boot ? > >Yeah, I could of course have / = 2 MB and symlink everything >somewhere else :-P if you could spare a cylinder on each disk, you could have a kernel load from the first cylinder on the first disk past the bootsector and then use unionfs for that partition (readonly) and ccd. The kernel would also be on a readonly filesystem. You'd have to keep a backup of the kernel. Minimally, you'd need to put some parts of /etc on the small partition, I think. Someone else would be better at telling you exactly which parts. -John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 08:03:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00829 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:03:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA00812 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:02:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 268 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 16:10:00 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-030198 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:10:00 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: grog@lemis.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: >> ---------- >> From: Simon Shapiro[SMTP:shimon@simon-shapiro.org] >> >> > It's still a lot less work than put everything to tape, drop current >> > filesystems, drop current logical volumes, drop RAID group, create >> > new RAID group, create new logical volumes, create new filesystems, >> > restore everything from tape :-) >> >> If the tape still works, and is readable (have some good horror >> stories on >> dump/restore to tell). >> > I did nod added it to not make it too horrorous :-) Yes, > I personally do not like tapes very much. DAT tapes seem > to be reliable if you dispose the tapes after about 100 > write-read cycles but even with them I had a completely > terrible story when during restoring the tape was torn > in drive (Archive drive and Verbatim tape). I stopped using verbatim when their 8" SS-SD floppies would grind the drive head to oblivion in weeks, vs. Dysan years. DAT is as reliable as rain in Portland OR. It is most likely to be there, but... ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 08:36:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06365 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:36:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tbird.cc.bellcore.com (tbird.cc.bellcore.com [128.96.96.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA06352 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:36:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from khansen@njcc.com) Received: from monolith.bellcore.com by tbird.cc.bellcore.com with SMTP id AA07867 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:41:36 -0500 Received: from kenh-1 (khansen.cc.bellcore.com) by monolith.bellcore.com (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA22681; Tue, 3 Mar 98 11:36:03 EST Message-Id: <34FC31FA.5B5D@njcc.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:38:18 -0500 From: Ken Hansen Reply-To: khansen@njcc.com Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: The Good/John Scholvin Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Help: 2.2.5 crashing on boot after I add RAM References: <199803031439.IAA20074@enteract.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The Good/John Scholvin wrote: > > Please accept my apologies if thie list is inappropriate for this question! > I tried comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc and didn't see anything. Hope this helps... > I've got an old Compaq Contura 4/25 laptop which I'm trying to install 2.2.5 > on, and I've got a problem I can't figure out. The machine boots the GENERIC > kernel fine when it has 8MB RAM installed. I've got an expansion RAM card > which, when installed, ups the total to 20MB. I wonder if the ram expansion is good - have you tried using the same exp. board under a different OS - Win or other? Just a thought... > The GENERIC kernel no longer > boots; it never even gets to the probe stage. Just a question, but how about the FreeBSD install diskette - will that boot the laptop (with the 20M Ram installed)? > I figure, no problem, build a > new kernel with option "MAXMEM=(20*1024)" after the example I found in > LINT. Is 20 Meg RAM a significant difference that requires a custom kernel? Ken khansen@njcc.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 08:43:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08055 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:43:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA08001 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:43:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from dbsys (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA15886; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:49:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980303114747.00f4e270@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:47:53 -0500 To: Robert Withrow , Terry Lambert From: dennis Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. Cc: witr@rwwa.com (Robert Withrow), hasty@rah.star-gate.com, abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, eivind@yes.no, khansen@njcc.com, rminnich@Sarnoff.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:45 PM 3/2/98 -0500, Robert Withrow wrote: > >I said: >:- Java isn't a scripting language. > >tlambert@primenet.com said: >:- ??? >:- You must not be running the same JAVA *interpreter* I run... > >Terry: > >"interpreted" is not a synonym for "scripting language". > >If it were then C, BASIC, PL1, PASCAL, and probably COBOL would be >called scripting languages, since they all run or have been >interpreted. > >But lets not debate this further on hacker. Besides, I don't consider >*this* issue debatable. Sorry. Perhap he is confusing JavaScript with Java Language? db To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 09:45:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16964 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from float.eli.net (float.eli.net [208.131.4.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16957 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:45:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blkirk@float.eli.net) Received: from localhost (blkirk@localhost) by float.eli.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA08170; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:43:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:43:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Ben Kirkpatrick, ELI" To: Philippe Regnauld cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CCD & booting on / In-Reply-To: <19980303100327.54315@deepo.prosa.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Philippe Regnauld wrote: > My question is: is there no workaround/unspeakable hack that > could be made, with CCD in the kernel, for the bootblocks to read > from the first of an N-part mirror, just to get past the boot ? Here's another idea (very out there). During boot, I don't think there's any way of safely reading two copies of the boot blocks. But, you could have the boot code check several places for a kernel and do checksums on them. Then pick a good one and boot. I've never tried this, but you'd have to umount+mount / again... Perhaps have an /altroot or a mfs to accomplish this early in the rc's. Okey, I'd better quit now, my crack-tablet-dispenser is broken. --Ben Kirkpatrick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 10:13:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23145 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:13:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23047 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:12:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25509 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:12:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803031812.KAA25509@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: OOP and Java Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:12:39 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG For the current Java effort for sys ad tools, This month issue of the magazine Java Report has an interesting article on a design pattern called Panels -- it allows connecting screens using a state machine. see http://www.sigs.com/jro Here is a great pointer to ACE --- a C++ class library suitable for building servers: http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/ACE-netsvcs.html We should be in good shape to support ACE once ELF support is rolled into current. Have Fun, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 10:25:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26774 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:25:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA26647 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:24:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA04298; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:23:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA00431; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:23:41 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:23:41 -0700 Message-Id: <199803031823.LAA00431@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OOP and Java In-Reply-To: <199803031812.KAA25509@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199803031812.KAA25509@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Here is a great pointer to ACE --- a C++ class library suitable for > building servers: > > http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/ACE-netsvcs.html > > We should be in good shape to support ACE once ELF support is rolled into > current. We don't need ELF for ACE. ACE is already implemented in Java. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 10:32:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27774 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:32:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27740 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:31:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25695; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:31:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803031831.KAA25695@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OOP and Java In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:23:41 MST." <199803031823.LAA00431@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:31:44 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Most Cool! I was just targetting those who don't want to see a server implemented in Java. There was a quick rapid exchange on this issue and out it came : mark@vmunix.com said: > :-) As it turns out, myself and 3 others will be attempting a FreeBSD > GUI admin system (client/server) over the summer for a course credit. > Right now, the initial design is leaning towards using a C++ server > and a Java client talking to it over an established protocol. Likely > going to be using LDAP for distribution, etc, as Terry suggested in a > much earlier post. > So, wait til summer and then we'll see what happens. :-) > With my project, and the 2 others that are going on right now (HTTP > based, and the Tcl/Tk one) by fall I suspect there will be some rather > neat administration tools for FreeBSD. Yeah! There was also a concern to keep the servers small with the hope that it would respond better under low system resources scenarios. Amancio > > Here is a great pointer to ACE --- a C++ class library suitable for > > building servers: > > > > http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/ACE-netsvcs.html > > > > We should be in good shape to support ACE once ELF support is rolled into > > current. > > We don't need ELF for ACE. ACE is already implemented in Java. > > > Nate > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 10:54:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02927 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:54:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from euthyphro.uchicago.edu (euthyphro.uchicago.edu [128.135.21.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02922 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:54:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sfarrell@phaedrus.uchicago.edu) Received: from phaedrus.uchicago.edu (phaedrus [128.135.21.10]) by euthyphro.uchicago.edu (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA04471 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:54:01 -0600 (CST) Received: (from sfarrell@localhost) by phaedrus.uchicago.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA17191; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:54:00 -0600 (CST) To: freebsd hackers Subject: hook database into filesystem like BeOS? From: stephen farrell Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 03 Mar 1998 12:54:00 -0600 Message-ID: <87pvk3sj07.fsf@phaedrus.uchicago.edu> Lines: 36 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG one nice thing about the BeOS is the database integration with the filesystem. what this means is that all meta-data about files and directories is stored simultaneously in a database. i assume that the two are independant, really, but that the filesystem layer has some hooks it calls to keep the database in sync. the advantages are great: searches across the entire filesystem (say for all files containing the letter "e" that were edited between 2pm and 4pm yesterday) take less than a second, instead of minutes or tens of minutes with find. additionally, updates are "live", so it's not like locate where the file will show up only if it was there the last time updatedb was run. this has some rather impressively neat affects, like if you're at the command line (BeOS much posix compliance), and you rename a file and happen to have the filemanager open on that dir, you'll see the file change. this is nifty and all, but i would also imagine that such a system would be extremely useful for more important issues: e.g., it could also store inode numbers and thus allow an alternative way for applications to access files very quickly (like news server). so my question is: 1. anyone thinking about this? 2. how difficult do you think it would be to get started playing with this--adding hooks to the vfs layer to maintain the state in a rdbms (mysql, postgres, etc)? 3. do you think it might be possible that such a system could be, in principal, integrated with the c library so that applications (e.g., find, file managers) would use it while calling the existing api (analagous to nis vs. passwd file... perhaps a /etc config file telling it whether it should use database, if so what kind, if so which hostname is the database on, etc)? -- Steve Farrell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 11:02:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05496 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:02:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isvara.net (root@[130.88.148.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05483; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@challenge.isvara.net) Received: from challenge.isvara.net ([130.88.66.5]) by isvara.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06204; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:01:46 GMT Message-ID: <34FC539D.44DC7452@challenge.isvara.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:01:49 +0000 From: freebsd@isvara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Current , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Soward wrote: > We have a large investment in FreeBSD here at UK. Currently our primary campus > web server uses it (~1000 users), and our news server...and in a few weeks our 3 > 2,000 user pop mail system will be FreeBSD based. Similar situation here. Our universities use FreeBSD and Novell OSs for the servers. The admin people have identified that FreeBSD is far more stable and faster than Linux generally. There are close to 100K students in Manchester AFAIK, putting a large loading on the services offered. There are three main mail gateways (smarthosts), and all operate well. The local university networks comprise of four 100Mb FDDI rings (one per university) feeding into the 155Mb ATM Manchester backbone which connects to the Manchester Network Access Point (MaNAP) and two other core switching nodes for the academic community, via 155Mb ATM links. There are three DNS servers (all running FreeBSD), and are under very heavy load; All continously work perfectly. FreeBSD is well known for it's stability and performance operating as a server, and Manchester Computing uses it extensively. 8-) Well done FreeBSD team. Dan _____________________________________ Daniel J Blueman BSc Computation, UMIST, Manchester Email: blue@challenge.isvara.net Web: http://www.challenge.isvara.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 11:14:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09087 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:14:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08921 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:13:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from gjallarbru.ifi.uio.no (2602@gjallarbru.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.133]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id UAA19115; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:13:40 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by gjallarbru.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:13:39 +0100 (MET) To: Michael Hancock Cc: Niall Smart , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: cshort - speaking of new utilities References: Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse / KRST / PUMS X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 03 Mar 1998 20:13:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: Michael Hancock's message of "Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:40:18 +0900 (JST)" Message-ID: Lines: 25 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Michael Hancock writes: > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Niall Smart wrote: > > > int > > > foobar(a) > > > int a; > > > REQUIRE(a > 0); > > > ENSURE(retval < 100); > > > > Ugh, do you really use this precondition stuff? > > Sure. It beats writing specs and they're kept up to date. If you were > really pedantic about it every time you looked at a piece of code without > preconditions you would say, "Anything goes". This code is telling me > that I can give it whatever I want as arguments. AOL. Plus - can you *prove* that your code is correct? No you can't, not without a suitable specification. And sometimes it is extremely useful to be able to prove your code is correct, especially stuff lik complex ADTs, or protocols. I ought to know - I teach this stuff at the Univeristy of Oslo... -- "I have a closed mind. It helps keeping the rain out." (Michael Press on a.s.r) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 11:15:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09356 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:15:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09295 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:14:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02601; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:14:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd002520; Tue Mar 3 12:14:36 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA00679; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:14:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803031914.MAA00679@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:14:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: witr@rwwa.com, tlambert@primenet.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, eivind@yes.no, khansen@njcc.com, rminnich@Sarnoff.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980303114747.00f4e270@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Mar 3, 98 11:47:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >But lets not debate this further on hacker. Besides, I don't consider > >*this* issue debatable. Sorry. > > Perhap he is confusing JavaScript with Java Language? Perhaps I'm just reading the subject line about the code being executed in a browser, which implies JavaScript... If we are talking Java in a web-based admin tool, then we are talking about scripting. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 11:51:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16681 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:51:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA16664 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:51:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA08218 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:49:50 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA01249; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:13:18 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803031813.TAA01249@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: <19980303191755.14264@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 3, 98 07:17:55 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:13:18 +0100 (MET) Cc: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Greg Lehey wrote... > On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 23:57:44 +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > > As Greg Lehey wrote... > >> On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 14:23:50 -0500, sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: > >>>> ---------- > >>>> From: Terry Lambert[SMTP:tlambert@primenet.com] > >>>> > >>>>>>> I think Julian's SLICE code has something in that direction. > >>>> DPT > >>>>>>> supports INCREASING the size of a RAID-5 array by adding drives. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> How can that work? > >>>>> > >>>>> Something like > >>>>> - read N RAID blocks from K disks > >>>>> - compute new checksum for K+1 disks and write as less number > >>>>> of RAID blocks but each one of bigger size (K+1/K times) > >>>>> - add empty blocks at the end of RAID in the added space > >>>> > >>>> You would have to remember to grab the blocks to be relocated with > >>>> the same O(n) randomness as their allocation. 8-). > >>>> > >>> Huh ? Probably I've missed something about RAIDs. I've thought > >>> that, for example, RAID block 0 consists of blocks 0 of all > >>> the physical disks. And so on. And I've thought that RAID itself > >>> does not allocate any blocks, the upper level like filesystem or > >>> volume manager does it, RAID just makes chechsuming. Am I wrong again ? > >> > >> That's not the point. OK, we were talking about RAID 5 here, which > >> also has parity blocks, but the point is that if you add another disk, > >> you're effectively adding another block every n blocks in the file > >> system address space. It requires some non-trivial data movement to > >> rearrange all the data (more specifically, except for the first n (n = > >> old number of drives) blocks, you must move *everything*, and you must > >> recalculate parity for every stripe. > >> > >> My question ("How can that work?") was based on the misassumption that > >> this would be too much work to be justifiable. > > > > And apart from the work involved to get it implemented: how long would it > > take a RAIDset to get re-organised/enlarged. Reason #1 for doing things like > > this is because you don't want downtime. And I don't want to think about > > some hardware failure (say a disk) halfway during this process. That would > > really result in a dis[k]array ;-) > > Obviously there are a number of problems. But in fact it's not as > difficult as it sounds. There's a problem with RAID 5 anyway if > there's, say, a power failure during a write. After bringing it back > up again, you can recognize that there's a parity error, but where? This is called the 'write hole' in the literature. The trick is to use battery backed cache not only for RAID5 (write)performance reasons, but also to keep the data until date AND parity have safely landed on the disks. Same problems for mirror sets BTW. And don't enable the write caches *on the disks themselves* unless you feel suicidal ;-) > The question of reorganizing isn't as critical: run an asynchronous > process which updates the array a stripe at a time. In addition to > the data, let it write a magic number in the entire first sector > following the updated slice. If the array does go down during the > update, a recovery run can can find this magic number and know where > to restart the reorganization. Not ideal, but better than nothing. Throw hardware at it... Maybe you could also use a Prestoserve memory card of some sort for it. > Vinum offers another alternative: attach a second plex with the same > data, maybe only a few megabytes at a time. During the time this area > of the volume is being updated, the plex supplies a backup in case of > failure. When the region is left, the plex is detached and reattached > at the next point in the array. If anything goes down, the correct > data will be in the auxiliary plex. Hmm. Sounds reasonable. Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 11:56:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18471 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:56:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA18424 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:56:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA08233 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@freebsd.org); Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:49:54 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA01286; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:16:24 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803031816.TAA01286@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 00:34:18 am" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:16:24 +0100 (MET) Cc: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 02-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > ... > > > And apart from the work involved to get it implemented: how long would > it > > take a RAIDset to get re-organised/enlarged. Reason #1 for doing things > > like > > this is because you don't want downtime. And I don't want to think about > > some hardware failure (say a disk) halfway during this process. That > > would > > really result in a dis[k]array ;-) > > Nope... > > > 'Not everything that can be done should be done' > > Right!!! You must have tried it ;-) HP has something like this, but with a different implementation, I think it is called AutoRaid (?). They use RAID5 for 'cool' data and RAID1 for 'hot' data. This gives a nice compromise between cost (RAID1 is $$) and RAID5 (slower, especially on writes). They migrate between the raid levels based on data usage patterns. It was a very hot topic a couple of years ago, but in my experience this has cooled down quite a bit. Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 12:03:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19846 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:03:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA19830 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:03:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 15459 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 20:10:08 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980303191755.14264@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:10:08 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, Wilko Bulte Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Greg Lehey wrote: ... > Obviously there are a number of problems. But in fact it's not as > difficult as it sounds. There's a problem with RAID 5 anyway if > there's, say, a power failure during a write. After bringing it back > up again, you can recognize that there's a parity error, but where? This sounds like an uncomitted transaction. Quite easy to arrange for a rollback at boot time. You keep such gems in NVRAM, for example, or in a known place on the disks, or you implement a journal, or... ... > Vinum offers another alternative: attach a second plex with the same > data, maybe only a few megabytes at a time. During the time this area > of the volume is being updated, the plex supplies a backup in case of > failure. When the region is left, the plex is detached and reattached > at the next point in the array. If anything goes down, the correct > data will be in the auxiliary plex. Concatenation with journaling. Could be done. > Does that make sense? I'll try to formulate it more clearly if > anybody has difficulty with the concepts. The only problem I have here, is the assumption that the O/S will do all that. Not only it consumes much CPU, I/O bus, memory bandwidth, etc., but O/S crashes are the number one cause of failure in any modern computer. Putting all this logic there is asking for it to crash frequently, and run under load all the time. I think that the RAID logic should be outside the VPU/O/S proper, just like CRC checking is not done in the CPU anymode, and since SCSI and IDE, so is data separation, PLL detection loops, etc. If your data is so important to you, spend few dollars to get it done in a predictable and reliable manner. BTW, Since 1984 or so, I NEVER lost data due to disk failure. I lost a LOT of data due to O/S failures, and some data due to bugs in RAID logic. Although I do not belive Seagate's claim for 1,000,000 hours MTBF, I think the realized MTBF will far exceed any FreeBSD uptime. This discussion is very enlightening none the less. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 12:07:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20532 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:07:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA20523 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:07:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 15534 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 20:14:52 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803031813.TAA01249@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:14:51 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, (Greg Lehey) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... > This is called the 'write hole' in the literature. The trick is to > use battery backed cache not only for RAID5 (write)performance > reasons, but also to keep the data until date AND parity have safely > landed on the disks. I have seen an interesting solution some time ago; Instead of battery, the spindle motor (on the disk) was used to generate the power needed to flush the caches. then the motor leads will be clamped, and the spidle shut down quickly (normal procedure nowdays). This was done on a 14" spindle that had a bit more inertia than todays' disks. But the circuitry consumed more power too. > Same problems for mirror sets BTW. And don't enable the write caches *on > the > disks themselves* unless you feel suicidal ;-) Unless they use the above trick... ... ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 12:24:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25814 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:24:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA25708 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:24:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 15945 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 20:31:22 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87pvk3sj07.fsf@phaedrus.uchicago.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:31:22 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: stephen farrell Subject: RE: hook database into filesystem like BeOS? Cc: freebsd hackers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 stephen farrell wrote: ... > so my question is: 1. anyone thinking about this? 2. how difficult do > you think it would be to get started playing with this--adding hooks > to the vfs layer to maintain the state in a rdbms (mysql, postgres, > etc)? 3. do you think it might be possible that such a system could > be, in principal, integrated with the c library so that applications > (e.g., find, file managers) would use it while calling the existing > api (analagous to nis vs. passwd file... perhaps a /etc config file > telling it whether it should use database, if so what kind, if so > which hostname is the database on, etc)? Yes, I am. Although nice and highly optimized for their own declared purpose (video streams, if I remember), this structure is not fit for most RDBMS storage managers. Database engines tend to view the disk as an array of blocks and no more. In Postgres, for example (I would have commented on Oracle OSD but cannot), you simply cannot do anything to the disk other than read a block, and write a block. (Well, there are few others). Locking cannot and should not be associated with disk blocks, as in an RDBMS you want to be able to lock abstract objects that may map to vlocks, may not map to blocks, map to multiple blocks, etc. If you examine the lock manager in Postgres, you will see what I mean. Locking ``one'' object can translate to several hundred lock operations. Ugly indeed. Since you opened this can of worms, I'll add that there is a loose group of us which contemplates the merging of RDBMS storage management and a Unix O/S. This is an interesting subject, and FreeBSD is actually a good O/S for this type of work. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 12:30:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26717 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:30:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26705 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:30:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA15506; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:27:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd015502; Tue Mar 3 12:27:10 1998 Message-ID: <34FC66A3.2781E494@whistle.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:22:59 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro wrote: > > I have seen an interesting solution some time ago; Instead of battery, the > spindle motor (on the disk) was used to generate the power needed to flush > the caches. then the motor leads will be clamped, and the spidle shut down > quickly (normal procedure nowdays). This was done on a 14" spindle that > had a bit more inertia than todays' disks. But the circuitry consumed more > power too. > spindle inertia is no longer used for power. I quote from the Qantum fireball programmer's manual.. "You may apply the power in any order, or open either the power or return line with no loss of data or damage to the disk drive. However, data may be lost in the sector being written at the time of power loss." Other drives have similar stories to tell. We queried the manufacturers closely on this and they confirmed that they cease all operation IMMEDIATLY on recognition of power loss. julian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 13:02:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02608 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:02:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA02523 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:01:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 16436 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 21:08:48 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803031816.TAA01286@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:08:48 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > As Simon Shapiro wrote... >> >> On 02-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... >> > 'Not everything that can be done should be done' >> >> Right!!! > > You must have tried it ;-) I expanded this statement (a favorite of mine) in my mind to cover a wide range of social, political, and interpersonal subjects. > HP has something like this, but with a different implementation, I think > it is called AutoRaid (?). They use RAID5 for 'cool' data and RAID1 for > 'hot' data. This gives a nice compromise between cost (RAID1 is $$) and > RAID5 (slower, especially on writes). They migrate between the raid > levels > based on data usage patterns. Check out {sendero,nomis}.simon-shapiro.org. I have RAID-1 on the boot images, RAID-5 on data I care about, /usr/obj and such on RAID-0. Sonme of these arrays are actually shared between nomis and sendero. Hard to tell which is which. Migration happens using human prowess and the all powerful ``find . | cpio -dump'' tool. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 13:10:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05256 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:10:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA05048 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:09:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 16642 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 21:16:19 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <34FC66A3.2781E494@whistle.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:16:19 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Julian Elischer Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Julian Elischer wrote: ... > spindle inertia is no longer used for power. Probably saves them all of $3.00/drive. > I quote from the Qantum fireball programmer's manual.. > > "You may apply the power in any order, or open either the power or > return line with no loss of data or damage to the disk drive. However, > data may be lost in the sector being written at the time of power > loss." > > Other drives have similar stories to tell. > > We queried the manufacturers closely on this > and they confirmed that they cease all operation IMMEDIATLY on > recognition of power loss. That means that the drive's cache is useless at best. Alternatively, my HA work is that much more valuable (coupled with a good UPS). ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 13:28:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10599 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:28:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10458 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:27:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17949; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:23:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803032123.NAA17949@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: Wilko Bulte , sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:14:51 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:23:24 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > On 03-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > ... > > > This is called the 'write hole' in the literature. The trick is to > > use battery backed cache not only for RAID5 (write)performance > > reasons, but also to keep the data until date AND parity have safely > > landed on the disks. > > I have seen an interesting solution some time ago; Instead of battery, the > spindle motor (on the disk) was used to generate the power needed to flush > the caches. then the motor leads will be clamped, and the spidle shut down > quickly (normal procedure nowdays). This was done on a 14" spindle that > had a bit more inertia than todays' disks. But the circuitry consumed more > power too. This is common practice on most modern disks; it dates from the days of autoparking stepper-motor units in that market. You don't get a guarantee that everything that you wrote to the cache on the disk will be flushed, just that the disk won't write half a block and trail off. Some do flush the cache, some will complete the current set of blocks, and some will process as much of the cache as they have power for. It seems to depend on the studliness of the firmware authors, and TBH given that most of this understanding comes from experimental rather than authoratative sources you are welcome to take your own interpretation. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 13:30:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11428 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:30:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from us.net (laurel.us.net [198.240.72.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11145 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:29:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jjw@us.net) Received: from q.jjw.us.net (q.jjw.us.net [207.244.202.2]) by us.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA20914 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:19:26 -0500 (EST) X-Provider: US Net - Advanced Internet Services - (301) 572-5926 - info@us.net Where Business Connects! (tm) -- http://www.us.net/ Message-ID: <34FACDE5.41C67EA6@us.net> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:19:01 -0500 From: John Woodruff Organization: US Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff References: <353.888824865@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: [in response to /usr/X11R6 -> /usr/local/X11R6 suggestion] > Actually, this would be far from consistent - it would confuse the > piss out of folks who've become more than used to /usr/X11R6 as the > location for X libraries and binaries over the last 3 years. > Changing it at this juncture would only be a recipe for complete > and utter chaos. Hear, Hear!! Anyone want to count all occurrances of '/usr/X11R6' in the -current + ports trees?? -- John Woodruff, Sr. Network Engineer, US Net - 301-572-5926 Washington/Baltimore/Richmond ISP - $6.95/month for full PPP! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 13:34:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12750 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:34:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12642 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:34:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17997; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:31:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803032131.NAA17997@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Julian Elischer cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:22:59 PST." <34FC66A3.2781E494@whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:31:53 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > spindle inertia is no longer used for power. ... > We queried the manufacturers closely on this > and they confirmed that they cease all operation IMMEDIATLY on > recognition of power loss. Well, that's what I get for experimenting with old disks. Thanks for the correction! -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 13:51:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17295 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:51:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17286 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:51:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id PAA07690; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:51:20 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id PAA26625; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:51:20 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303155120.43579@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:51:20 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: Julian Elischer Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <34FC66A3.2781E494@whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <34FC66A3.2781E494@whistle.com>; from Julian Elischer on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:22:59PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:22:59PM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > Simon Shapiro wrote: > > > > I have seen an interesting solution some time ago; Instead of battery, the > > spindle motor (on the disk) was used to generate the power needed to flush > > the caches. then the motor leads will be clamped, and the spidle shut down > > quickly (normal procedure nowdays). This was done on a 14" spindle that > > had a bit more inertia than todays' disks. But the circuitry consumed more > > power too. > > > > spindle inertia is no longer used for power. > > I quote from the Qantum fireball programmer's manual.. > > "You may apply the power in any order, or open either the power or > return line with no loss of data or damage to the disk drive. However, > data may be lost in the sector being written at the time of power > loss." > > Other drives have similar stories to tell. > > We queried the manufacturers closely on this > and they confirmed that they cease all operation IMMEDIATLY on > recognition of power loss. > > julian It is extremely dangerous to attempt to continue operating with unknown power levels on a winchester disk. In the extreme you could damage the format, rendering the sector being written unusable. In days of old, you could cause a headcrash (nowdays the voicecoil positioners retract on power loss) :-) You want the heads off the active media surface and the write gate off *now* if you detect a power failure. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 14:03:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20098 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:03:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA20068 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:02:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 17602 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 22:09:56 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980303155120.43579@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 14:09:56 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Karl Denninger Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: ... > You want the heads off the active media surface and the write gate off > *now* > if you detect a power failure. ``now'' is a relative term. f you are writing a sector, you want ``now'' to be ``just as soon as the sector is done''. Power failure is not instantenous. It is a short event, but takes some time. Those old drives that sported ``command completion'' lost less data upon power failure than these new ``1,000,000 MTBF 10,000RPM as lnog as I do not get warm even once'' drives. They also cost a lot more per megabyte, vibrated real nice and loud and kept my garage warm ieven in the dead of winter. Ah, the good old days... :-) ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 14:10:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22452 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22351 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:10:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id QAA09216; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:10:27 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id QAA27069; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:10:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303161026.53326@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:10:26 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980303155120.43579@mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:09:56PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 02:09:56PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > On 03-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: > > ... > > > You want the heads off the active media surface and the write gate off > > *now* > > if you detect a power failure. > > ``now'' is a relative term. f you are writing a sector, you want ``now'' > to be ``just as soon as the sector is done''. > Power failure is not instantenous. It is a short event, but takes some > time. Those old drives that sported ``command completion'' lost less data > upon power failure than these new ``1,000,000 MTBF 10,000RPM as lnog as I do > not get warm even once'' drives. They also cost a lot more per megabyte, > vibrated real nice and loud and kept my garage warm ieven in the dead of > winter. Ah, the good old days... :-) Part of that is that these days, with the smaller form factors, there's no space to put the requisite capacitor to store enough energy to do it. Making this possible would mean either (1) using regenerative power, as some other folks have suggested, or, (2) making enough room for the capacitor :-) If you know the power drain from the electronics, its a simple matter to hold up the circuitry for the "N" milliseconds you need to complete the current operation and cleanly shut down. Making things smaller, unfortunately, has the side effect of making it tougher to store enough energy for this purpose and the idea of using regenerative power seems to have fallen out of favor. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 15:27:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14640 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:27:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA14613 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:27:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA20463 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:27:06 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA03955; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:44:52 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803032144.WAA03955@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: <34FC66A3.2781E494@whistle.com> from Julian Elischer at "Mar 3, 98 12:22:59 pm" To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:44:52 +0100 (MET) Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Julian Elischer wrote... > Simon Shapiro wrote: > > > > > I have seen an interesting solution some time ago; Instead of battery, the > > spindle motor (on the disk) was used to generate the power needed to flush > > the caches. then the motor leads will be clamped, and the spidle shut down > > quickly (normal procedure nowdays). This was done on a 14" spindle that > > had a bit more inertia than todays' disks. But the circuitry consumed more > > power too. > > > > spindle inertia is no longer used for power. > > I quote from the Qantum fireball programmer's manual.. > > "You may apply the power in any order, or open either the power or > return line with no loss of data or damage to the disk drive. However, > data may be lost in the sector being written at the time of power > loss." > > Other drives have similar stories to tell. > > We queried the manufacturers closely on this > and they confirmed that they cease all operation IMMEDIATLY on > recognition of power loss. Once Upon A Time, When Power Supplies Were Still Powersupplies there were 2 signals available: AC_OK and DC_OK. Whenever your logic (disk) saw AC_OK negate, it was time to cleanup. After some time, dependent on how big your powersupply capacitors were, how loaded the PS was etc you saw DC_OK negate. Current drives can only sense powergood by looking at their DC power inputs. This is of course lousy, because as soon as you see power drop, you better park the heads and lock out any write current to the heads. A spiral written by a retracting head on top of your precious data leaves lots to be desired from a data integrity standpoint. This not even takes into account writing out unflushed cache data, possibly requiring a seek. Drive write caches are Evil. Every write cache without good battery backup is Evil. Talk to a DBMS guy about enabling disk write caches. Put sneakers on and be prepared to run fast... But then again, with VM systems that have megabytes worth of unflushed data the best way to loose your data is to pull the plug from your server ;-) Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 15:27:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14682 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:27:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA14627 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:27:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA20528 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:27:19 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA04054; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:55:31 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803032155.WAA04054@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 12:10:08 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:55:31 +0100 (MET) Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 03-Mar-98 Greg Lehey wrote: > ... > > > Obviously there are a number of problems. But in fact it's not as > > difficult as it sounds. There's a problem with RAID 5 anyway if > > there's, say, a power failure during a write. After bringing it back > > up again, you can recognize that there's a parity error, but where? > > This sounds like an uncomitted transaction. Quite easy to arrange for a > rollback at boot time. You keep such gems in NVRAM, for example, or in a > known place on the disks, or you implement a journal, or... Not on disk, in NVRAM. Or you would need to do sync writes on hardware level. Say you have the I/O out to your 'rollback' disk. The drive stashes it in it's I/O queue (tagged queueing and all). So, the data is not yet on disk and the power fails.... Chances are slim, agreed. > > Does that make sense? I'll try to formulate it more clearly if > > anybody has difficulty with the concepts. > > The only problem I have here, is the assumption that the O/S will do all > that. Not only it consumes much CPU, I/O bus, memory bandwidth, etc., but > O/S crashes are the number one cause of failure in any modern computer. > Putting all this logic there is asking for it to crash frequently, and run > under load all the time. I think that the RAID logic should be outside the > VPU/O/S proper, just like CRC checking is not done in the CPU anymode, and > since SCSI and IDE, so is data separation, PLL detection loops, etc. If > your data is so important to you, spend few dollars to get it done in a > predictable and reliable manner. Hear hear. RAID parity is also done in hardware these days. Mostly for speed reasons. A second reason to go for a standalone RAIDbox is of course the clustering/multi-host thingy. Backplane RAID is IMHO more for low(er)-end solutions. > BTW, Since 1984 or so, I NEVER lost data due to disk failure. I lost a LOT > of data due to O/S failures, and some data due to bugs in RAID logic. > > Although I do not belive Seagate's claim for 1,000,000 hours MTBF, I think > the realized MTBF will far exceed any FreeBSD uptime. This is probably true. You also want to realise that the early production units of a given drive model tend to have substantially lower MTBFs. It seems when manufacturing plants get the 'feel' for producing a specific model MTBF gets better. > This discussion is very enlightening none the less. Sure. _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 15:27:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14756 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:27:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA14656 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:27:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA20477 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:27:09 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA03990; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:47:28 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803032147.WAA03990@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 12:14:51 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:47:28 +0100 (MET) Cc: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 03-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > ... > > > This is called the 'write hole' in the literature. The trick is to > > use battery backed cache not only for RAID5 (write)performance > > reasons, but also to keep the data until date AND parity have safely > > landed on the disks. > > I have seen an interesting solution some time ago; Instead of battery, the > spindle motor (on the disk) was used to generate the power needed to flush > the caches. then the motor leads will be clamped, and the spidle shut down > quickly (normal procedure nowdays). This was done on a 14" spindle that > had a bit more inertia than todays' disks. But the circuitry consumed more > power too. > > > Same problems for mirror sets BTW. And don't enable the write caches *on > > the > > disks themselves* unless you feel suicidal ;-) > > Unless they use the above trick... > > ... The trick is cute, but it was used to park heads in the drives I saw. Not for flushing on drive caches. There would not be enough power to do e.g. a seek in order flush the cache. And by definition your platter rpm is dead wrong, you essentially use the whole thing as a electromagnetic brake. Not nice. Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 15:28:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15079 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA14985 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:28:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA20570 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:27:25 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA03917; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:35:07 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803032135.WAA03917@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: <199803032123.NAA17949@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Mar 3, 98 01:23:24 pm" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:35:07 +0100 (MET) Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Mike Smith wrote... > > > > On 03-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > > ... > > > > > This is called the 'write hole' in the literature. The trick is to > > > use battery backed cache not only for RAID5 (write)performance > > > reasons, but also to keep the data until date AND parity have safely > > > landed on the disks. > > > > I have seen an interesting solution some time ago; Instead of battery, the > > spindle motor (on the disk) was used to generate the power needed to flush > > the caches. then the motor leads will be clamped, and the spidle shut down > > quickly (normal procedure nowdays). This was done on a 14" spindle that > > had a bit more inertia than todays' disks. But the circuitry consumed more > > power too. I think Digital RL02 disks did that, maybe even RK05 (2.5 Mb on 14".....) > This is common practice on most modern disks; it dates from the days of > autoparking stepper-motor units in that market. > > You don't get a guarantee that everything that you wrote to the cache > on the disk will be flushed, just that the disk won't write half a > block and trail off. Some do flush the cache, some will complete the > current set of blocks, and some will process as much of the cache as > they have power for. It seems to depend on the studliness of the > firmware authors, and TBH given that most of this understanding comes > from experimental rather than authoratative sources you are welcome to > take your own interpretation. The oldies did not have any cache, they used the rotational energy to autopark their heads (and slam a mechanical lock in place). Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 15:51:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20084 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:51:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA19749 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:50:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 19686 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1998 23:57:02 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803032135.WAA03917@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 15:57:02 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, (Mike Smith) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... > I think Digital RL02 disks did that, maybe even RK05 (2.5 Mb on 14".....) ... > The oldies did not have any cache, they used the rotational energy to > autopark their heads (and slam a mechanical lock in place). Priam disks with the smart controller option had some cashe on them. I think 2KB, 2 tracks, somehting. Not as old as you mention above, but not exactly new either :-) ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 16:03:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23226 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:03:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA23139 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:03:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 19957 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 00:09:52 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803032144.WAA03955@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:09:52 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, (Julian Elischer) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... > Once Upon A Time, When Power Supplies Were Still Powersupplies there were > 2 signals available: AC_OK and DC_OK. Whenever your logic (disk) saw > AC_OK negate, it was time to cleanup. After some time, dependent on how > big your powersupply capacitors were, how loaded the PS was etc you saw > DC_OK negate. Unless it is a DC/DC power supply :-) Yes, you are right, but the cost of two extra wires, two gates, a transistor, etc. is really too much. ... > Drive write caches are Evil. Every write cache without good battery > backup > is Evil. Talk to a DBMS guy about enabling disk write caches. Put > sneakers > on and be prepared to run fast... Nah, we just smile at you and put your reume in the can... Actually, there are ways around that. I promised to make them available on FreeBSD and I will. Real Soon Now. I am waiting for hardware for testing... > But then again, with VM systems that have megabytes worth of unflushed > data the best way to loose your data is to pull the plug from your server > ;-) Top said, on last make world that there are 158MB of buffers in use. This is 5 times the total disk capacity on the first Unix port I tried to compile. Scary. Terry? Any thoughts on hot-starting a Unix based PC? We need to dump memory quickly, I think. No way to preserve DRAM across BIOS resets I know of. Assuming we have the ability to dump memory quickly (see below), can we just snap a state, dump it, leave a signature and resume at power up? We had that on VAXes with VMS (Not AT&T Unix, and I do not think BSD). Memory SNAP: If you write it into a DPT controller, and the controller has enough cache to hold it, it is pretty fast. I can sustain about 2us per transaction overhead and about 120MB/Sec. This gives us about a second or two. The new DPT's can retain the cache until power returns. Even a small UPS (with poer alarms will last long enough. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 16:09:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24602 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:09:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24496 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:08:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id CAA26310; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:06:42 +0200 (IST) Message-ID: <19980304020642.57804@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:06:42 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: John Woodruff Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff References: <353.888824865@time.cdrom.com> <34FACDE5.41C67EA6@us.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <34FACDE5.41C67EA6@us.net>; from John Woodruff on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 10:19:01AM -0500 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You, John Woodruff, were spotted writing this on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 10:19:01AM -0500: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > [in response to /usr/X11R6 -> /usr/local/X11R6 suggestion] > > Actually, this would be far from consistent - it would confuse the > > piss out of folks who've become more than used to /usr/X11R6 as the > > location for X libraries and binaries over the last 3 years. > > Changing it at this juncture would only be a recipe for complete > > and utter chaos. > > Hear, Hear!! Anyone want to count all occurrances of '/usr/X11R6' > in the -current + ports trees?? Again, the suggestion is to only move _ports_ to /usr/local/X11R6, _not_ the whole X! (and 99% of those occurances you're talking about are for including/linking with standart X headers/libs). And not all the ports, but only (for now) non-imake ones. And do it as a non-default /etc/make.conf flag. As for your question - there're lots, and just about all of them are evil anyway (except perhaps for /usr/share/mk files and sysinstall code ;)). -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 16:11:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25095 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:11:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24939 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:10:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id SAA16326; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:09:59 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id SAA29224; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:09:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303180959.19173@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:09:59 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: Wilko Bulte Cc: Julian Elischer , shimon@simon-shapiro.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <34FC66A3.2781E494@whistle.com> <199803032144.WAA03955@yedi.iaf.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199803032144.WAA03955@yedi.iaf.nl>; from Wilko Bulte on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:44:52PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:44:52PM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > Once Upon A Time, When Power Supplies Were Still Powersupplies there were > 2 signals available: AC_OK and DC_OK. Whenever your logic (disk) saw > AC_OK negate, it was time to cleanup. After some time, dependent on how > big your powersupply capacitors were, how loaded the PS was etc you saw > DC_OK negate. Yep. > Current drives can only sense powergood by looking at their DC power inputs. > This is of course lousy, because as soon as you see power drop, you better > park the heads and lock out any write current to the heads. A spiral written > by a retracting head on top of your precious data leaves lots to > be desired from a data integrity standpoint. Well, if you have a big enough cap on the output side of the regulator you can write the rest of the current sector. But these days, trying to get that on the circuit board is basically impossible. > This not even takes into account writing out unflushed cache data, possibly > requiring a seek. And settling time, and acquisition of the servo (along with centering on it), etc etc etc. > Drive write caches are Evil. Every write cache without good battery backup > is Evil. Talk to a DBMS guy about enabling disk write caches. Put sneakers > on and be prepared to run fast... > > But then again, with VM systems that have megabytes worth of unflushed > data the best way to loose your data is to pull the plug from your server > ;-) This is one of the reasons I like the CMD RAID controllers. They have a nice big cache on them (with appropriate SIMMs), but they ALSO have an input for a 6V gelcel battery, and an internal *charging circuit* to manage it. In addition, they have inputs on them to sense UPS health (if you have one). You therefore get three levels of protection: 1) If the UPS goes onto battery, the unit starts "watching" things. 2) If it gets a low power warnings (ie: the "2 minute warning") it flushes the cache and goes into write-through mode. Now you're "safe" if you get screwed. 3) If you get dumped without warning, the battery is there and it will pick up the pieces when power returns. Note that if you have no battery connected or its discharged (the controller is smart enough to know), getting a 2-minute warning flushes the cache and quiesces the controller IMMEDIATELY. These controllers will not operate without either a battery or UPS, and both are (of course) preferred. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 16:14:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25795 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:14:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA25575 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:13:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 19991 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 00:13:30 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803032147.WAA03990@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:13:29 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... > The trick is cute, but it was used to park heads in the drives I saw. > Not for flushing on drive caches. There would not be enough power to > do e.g. a seek in order flush the cache. And by definition your platter > rpm is dead wrong, you essentially use the whole thing as a > electromagnetic brake. Not nice. I could swear the old Priam 14" had something like 0.5 sec before RPM will degrad. And I am pretty sure it could flush all 2K of cache (2 seeks and two rotations worst case with 1k sectors), but I could be wrong. Most modern drives use the motor as an electromagnetic break. Try to snap off the motor leads and you see the difference in spin-down time. I have :-) ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 16:15:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26094 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:15:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25994 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:14:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: (from hasty@localhost) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01499 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:14:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:14:50 -0800 (PST) From: Amancio Hasty Message-Id: <199803040014.QAA01499@rah.star-gate.com> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wandering , if we can get a grant from the goverment to support the SMP project or to support FreeBSD ? "Me thinks that the current timing is purfect" 8) Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 16:17:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26644 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:17:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA26391 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:16:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 20176 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 00:23:24 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803032155.WAA04054@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:23:24 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... > Hear hear. RAID parity is also done in hardware these days. Mostly for > speed reasons. A second reason to go for a standalone RAIDbox is of > course > the clustering/multi-host thingy. Backplane RAID is IMHO more for > low(er)-end solutions. Where does that leave kernel RAID? I like controller level RAID because: a. Much more flexible in packaging; I can use of-the shelf disks in off-the-shelf cases if I choose to). b. In the case of a DPT, you get better performance and better reliability, as I have three busses to spread the I/O across, and three busses to take fatal failures on. c. I am used to it (see you argue with that :-) ... > This is probably true. You also want to realise that the early production > units of a given drive model tend to have substantially lower MTBFs. It > seems when manufacturing plants get the 'feel' for producing a specific > model MTBF gets better. I think the focus has to change: * We used to do RAID to protect from hardware failure disrupting service. In the face of O/S and firmware volatility and buginess, this is absurd; As I said, I am using DPT controllers for ALL my storage. and yet have to loose a byte to disk failure (unless I use WD or certain Micropolis models). * I think RAID is only important to protect us fro mthe damage WHEN the failure occurs. I think the focus changed from operational feature to insurance policy. Risk management is something not too many of us is any good at (count the number of times you/I/we delivered a project on time. What does it all mean? I dunno. I leave it to the scientists to ponder. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 16:48:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06387 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:48:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05785 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:46:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07163; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:24:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA04149; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:24:29 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:24:29 -0700 Message-Id: <199803040024.RAA04149@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? In-Reply-To: <199803040014.QAA01499@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199803040014.QAA01499@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Wandering , if we can get a grant from the goverment to support the SMP > project or to support FreeBSD ? The government has no money for such things anymore. Nate - Speaking as an employee from a company who used to bilk the Feds for such projects. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 16:53:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07661 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:53:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA07202 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:50:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 20772 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 00:57:21 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980303180959.19173@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:57:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Karl Denninger Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer , Wilko Bulte Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: ... > Well, if you have a big enough cap on the output side of the regulator > you > can write the rest of the current sector. But these days, trying to get > that on the circuit board is basically impossible. There is a problem with that too. Increased capacitance does funny things to switching power supplies. I think the whole idea went the way of good sound when Hi-Fi turned into solidstate stereo. ... > This is one of the reasons I like the CMD RAID controllers. They have a > nice big cache on them (with appropriate SIMMs), but they ALSO have an > input for a 6V gelcel battery, and an internal *charging circuit* to > manage it. Question is; Do they actually know how to do something useful with that cache? Or is the reset that comes from the BIOS wipe them clean? Before you answer, try it. I have seen batteries on computers before. They do not always do what you think they should. > In addition, they have inputs on them to sense UPS health (if you have > one). > > You therefore get three levels of protection: > > 1) If the UPS goes onto battery, the unit starts "watching" things. > > 2) If it gets a low power warnings (ie: the "2 minute warning") > it flushes the cache and goes into write-through mode. Now > you're "safe" if you get screwed. > > 3) If you get dumped without warning, the battery is there and it will > pick up the pieces when power returns. > > Note that if you have no battery connected or its discharged (the > controller > is smart enough to know), getting a 2-minute warning flushes the cache > and > quiesces the controller IMMEDIATELY. > > These controllers will not operate without either a battery or UPS, and > both are (of course) preferred. That's the way I like it. Except, if the O/S is not in the loop, it may do stupid things. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 17:03:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09479 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:03:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA09448 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:03:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 20888 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 01:09:54 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980303183101.05201@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:09:53 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Karl Denninger Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, Wilko Bulte Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: ... > My CMD RAID adapters have saved my nuts twice in the last month. > > In both cases there was a non-recoverable, hard sector error on a 9G > drive. > Without parity I would have lost something. With the RAID5 in place I > lost > nothing, other than the time to pull the pack, replace it, and set the > new > disk to "warm spare" (the system had already started the rebuild onto the > existing spare). This is what a RAID controller should do. Any less, junk it. > Lose 36GB all the way back to your last full + incremental dump (at least > a > day's worth of revisions) across 10,000 customers and tell me what > happens > to your head when they get done with you. This is a small database. I had to deal with customers with 3,000 drives per system and was told there are larger. > The problem isn't even necessarily the data loss - its the restore time. > A > 9G drive takes a shitload of time to reload from even the fastest DLT > drive. > > We still run tapes nightly for incrementals, and weekly for full dumps - > but > they are more for the "aw shit" user-induced stupidity (like the infamous > "rm -rf *") rather than hardware coverage. The pain of a restore across > disks of this size is just too darn big. I wrote a white paper at Oracle some years ago, claiming that databases over a certain size simply cannot be backed up. I became very UN-popular very quickly. In you moderate setup, you already see the proof of corectness. This is why most MIS types shiver when they hear about databases on Unix filesystems. All you need is a crash and fsck in a bad mood. If you are lucky, the entire data base is gone. If you are unlucky, a block will disappear form somewhere in the middle, and you will find out a week later. Now backup is literally useless. > This is, by the way, one of the reasons I used to favor lots of 1G drives > and filesystems - they can be restored in an hour or so if one fails. > With > a 9G drive, even the newest and fastest ones, and the best tape devices, > you're looking at a multi-hour outage. True. Your perfromance also goes up with the smaller drives. You can stripe better. I think I mentioned it before in this forum; Most DBMS benchmarks only use 300MB of the disk. This is sort of the ``sweet spot'' between system cost and perfrormance. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 17:43:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16837 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:43:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16743 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:43:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id TAA20399; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:43:01 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id TAA00444; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:43:00 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303194300.45312@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:43:00 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer , Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980303180959.19173@mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 04:57:21PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 04:57:21PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > This is one of the reasons I like the CMD RAID controllers. They have a > > nice big cache on them (with appropriate SIMMs), but they ALSO have an > > input for a 6V gelcel battery, and an internal *charging circuit* to > > manage it. > > Question is; Do they actually know how to do something useful with that > cache? Or is the reset that comes from the BIOS wipe them clean? Before > you answer, try it. I have seen batteries on computers before. They do > not always do what you think they should. Yes, they do, and yes, I've tried it. You can tell the controller to: 1) IGNORE a host-based RESET. 2) PASS a host-based reset through to the OTHER host ports (this is nice to tell a host that has "taken over" that you're back, and makes clustering possible in-band on the SCSI bus!) If you do this you'll abort any pending I/O from the other host channel(s) when the first RESET comes through. In either case the controller will start flushing any dirty pages to disk after about 30 seconds of inactivity. When you power down, IF you do so cleanly (ie: you tell the controller you're shutting down either from the front panel or via the control port - it has an RS232 interface) it disconnects the battery and the cache RAM (and event log) is lost. If you *DON'T* tell it first, it leaves the battery powering the refresh and the RAM contents remain. On reapplication of power the controller then verifies the array and immediately flushes any dirty pages out to the appropriate disk(s). You can manually disconnect the battery in this event from the front panel, but if the LED is blinking you have dirty buffers in there and it's a REALLY bad idea to push the button. :-) The cache is dual-mode; it functions as both a write-back cache and as a read cache. The controller does lazy-write aggregation (to avoid having to read/compute/write the RAID parity) when possible, but will flush the cache the hard way if it must. You can set the threshold for flushing to begin anywhere you want; it defaults to 50% full, but some Unix systems (FreeBSD included) seems to like it at 10% better. CMD tells me that Suns like this setting as well, but they're not quite sure why. If you want you can tell the controller not to use write-back (but to write-through instead); this is safer if you don't have a UPS or battery, of course, but is such a huge lose on RAID 5 writes that the battery and UPS are better options. Parity is computed in hardware by a dedicated proprietary chipset. You can also tell the controller to either: 1) Do no read-ahead (usually best for Unix, but not always; let the kernel handle that stuff) 2) Read ahead up to one raid block group (usually either 128 or 256 blocks), or less if you want (in reasonable increments). For sequentially-stored files, this can be a big win, but it comes at the cost of expending some of the cache (and rotational time) on possibly unused data. This thing has a 40Mhz MIPS processor on it, and pretty nice firmware along with an LCD front panel... > > In addition, they have inputs on them to sense UPS health (if you have > > one). > > > > You therefore get three levels of protection: > > > > 1) If the UPS goes onto battery, the unit starts "watching" things. > > > > 2) If it gets a low power warnings (ie: the "2 minute warning") > > it flushes the cache and goes into write-through mode. Now > > you're "safe" if you get screwed. > > > > 3) If you get dumped without warning, the battery is there and it will > > pick up the pieces when power returns. > > > > Note that if you have no battery connected or its discharged (the > > controller > > is smart enough to know), getting a 2-minute warning flushes the cache > > and > > quiesces the controller IMMEDIATELY. > > > > These controllers will not operate without either a battery or UPS, and > > both are (of course) preferred. > > That's the way I like it. Except, if the O/S is not in the loop, it may do > stupid things. Well, that much is true. You *CAN* lie about the UPS connection (ie: tell it you have one when you really don't) but that is DUMB DUMB DUMB. In that situation if you lose power the cache contents are toast and your disk structure may be as well. These beasties have 4 Ultra/Wide SCSI connections on them, and up to three can be designated for either host or drives (you must obviously have one of each). There are both Single-ended and differential versions available. I typically run them with one host connection and the drives split between two of the other busses; 5 9G disks with one warm spare, or for very high-volume writes, 6 9G disks in a RAID 0+1 config. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 18:02:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22184 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:02:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21986 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:01:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id SAA17269; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:31:02 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id SAA29449; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:31:01 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303183101.05201@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:31:01 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: Wilko Bulte , sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <199803032155.WAA04054@yedi.iaf.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 04:23:24PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 04:23:24PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > I think the focus has to change: > > * We used to do RAID to protect from hardware failure disrupting service. > In the face of O/S and firmware volatility and buginess, this is absurd; > As I said, I am using DPT controllers for ALL my storage. and yet have to > loose a byte to disk failure (unless I use WD or certain Micropolis > models). > > * I think RAID is only important to protect us fro mthe damage WHEN the > failure occurs. > > I think the focus changed from operational feature to insurance policy. > Risk management is something not too many of us is any good at (count the > number of times you/I/we delivered a project on time. > > What does it all mean? I dunno. I leave it to the scientists to ponder. My CMD RAID adapters have saved my nuts twice in the last month. In both cases there was a non-recoverable, hard sector error on a 9G drive. Without parity I would have lost something. With the RAID5 in place I lost nothing, other than the time to pull the pack, replace it, and set the new disk to "warm spare" (the system had already started the rebuild onto the existing spare). Lose 36GB all the way back to your last full + incremental dump (at least a day's worth of revisions) across 10,000 customers and tell me what happens to your head when they get done with you. The problem isn't even necessarily the data loss - its the restore time. A 9G drive takes a shitload of time to reload from even the fastest DLT drive. We still run tapes nightly for incrementals, and weekly for full dumps - but they are more for the "aw shit" user-induced stupidity (like the infamous "rm -rf *") rather than hardware coverage. The pain of a restore across disks of this size is just too darn big. This is, by the way, one of the reasons I used to favor lots of 1G drives and filesystems - they can be restored in an hour or so if one fails. With a 9G drive, even the newest and fastest ones, and the best tape devices, you're looking at a multi-hour outage. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 18:08:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23572 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:08:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23330 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:07:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA21468; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:06:52 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id UAA00680; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:06:52 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303200652.07366@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:06:52 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980303183101.05201@mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 05:09:53PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 05:09:53PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > We still run tapes nightly for incrementals, and weekly for full dumps - > > but > > they are more for the "aw shit" user-induced stupidity (like the infamous > > "rm -rf *") rather than hardware coverage. The pain of a restore across > > disks of this size is just too darn big. > > I wrote a white paper at Oracle some years ago, claiming that databases > over a certain size simply cannot be backed up. I became very UN-popular > very quickly. In you moderate setup, you already see the proof of > corectness. Correct. I consider any "regular" filesystem with more than 4G of data on it to be unrestorable, simply because there isn't enough time to do the restore and not get skewered. If the filesystem has news on it? Forget it. The small files blast the hell out of restore (or pax, or anything else) during the creates - even if mounted async during that operation. It simply takes forever. I've tried copying a 4G news spool disk before - get ready for a 12 hour wait. This, by the way, is why most ISPs just dump the spool if they get hit with a disk failure. By the time you restore it its out of date anyway :-) That's also why we have a nice RAID 0+1 array serving that on our primary news machine. :-) > This is why most MIS types shiver when they hear about databases on Unix > filesystems. All you need is a crash and fsck in a bad mood. If you are > lucky, the entire data base is gone. If you are unlucky, a block will > disappear form somewhere in the middle, and you will find out a week later. > Now backup is literally useless. Yep. This is, by the way, why a proper rotation of tapes is ESSENTIAL. If not, you're *DEAD*. I've been at this too long to get screwed by this kind of problem. Databases on Unix filesystems aren't safe. Neither are databases on raw partitions. I've seen both lost due to physical problems. Ever see a disk adapter decide to "translate" a block address? I have - and guess what happened to the database (this one was on a raw partition)? It was over a week later before the problem was detected when the back-end crashed for no ascertainable reason, and the validate failed. That one wasn't my responsibility, and the person who *WAS* the DBA wasn't doing the right things with the TLOGs. The company lost a week's worth of work. > > This is, by the way, one of the reasons I used to favor lots of 1G drives > > and filesystems - they can be restored in an hour or so if one fails. > > With > > a 9G drive, even the newest and fastest ones, and the best tape devices, > > you're looking at a multi-hour outage. > > True. Your perfromance also goes up with the smaller drives. You can > stripe better. I think I mentioned it before in this forum; Most DBMS > benchmarks only use 300MB of the disk. This is sort of the ``sweet spot'' > between system cost and perfrormance. To a point this is true. The problem is that the smaller disks rotate slower, and have bit densities that are lower. There is a tradeoff between seek latency and transfer time. If there are lots of small files, the huge number of small disks wins big. If there are a few large files, the small number of disks with speed on the physical I/O wins, provided you can seek sequentially. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 18:35:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28722 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:35:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28694 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:35:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10290; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:10:26 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA20551; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:10:26 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980304121026.00655@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:10:26 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Philippe Regnauld , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CCD & booting on / References: <19980303100327.54315@deepo.prosa.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980303100327.54315@deepo.prosa.dk>; from Philippe Regnauld on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:03:27AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 10:03:27 +0100, Philippe Regnauld wrote: > Stop me when I'm falling over the edge :-) > > I'm interested in getting a machine with having every partition > as a CCD mirror -- including /. My new ccd replacement, vinum, will be able to do that. Later. You need to have two a partitions on two different drives. At boot time, you boot from one of them as a standalone partition. When the first phase of file system checks have past, you remount them as a vinum volume. To do this, you need to place the partitions in a position which matches the vinum configuration. It shouldn't be too difficult. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 19:13:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04374 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:13:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA04357 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:13:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12048 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:13:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd012028; Tue Mar 3 20:13:37 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA12989 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:13:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803040313.UAA12989@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Disk write caches To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:13:36 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I would be very interested to see what the benchmarks on a machine with soft updates would be with a disk with and without write cacheing. In many repsects, write caching could be obsolete soon... ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 19:30:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07630 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:30:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA07557 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:30:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfieber@indiana.edu) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12412; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:29:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:29:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Nate Williams cc: Amancio Hasty , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? In-Reply-To: <199803040024.RAA04149@mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Nate Williams wrote: > > Wandering , if we can get a grant from the goverment to support the SMP > > project or to support FreeBSD ? > > The government has no money for such things anymore. There is some money flowing into academia. The NSF digitial library initiative is handing out about US$50 million this year. Unfortunately, SMP devolpment would be on the fringes of their agenda specified in their request for proposals. -john To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 19:33:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08223 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:33:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08154 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:33:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA08589; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:33:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA06084; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:33:12 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:33:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199803040333.UAA06084@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: John Fieber Cc: Nate Williams , Amancio Hasty , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? In-Reply-To: References: <199803040024.RAA04149@mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Wandering , if we can get a grant from the goverment to support the SMP > > > project or to support FreeBSD ? > > > > The government has no money for such things anymore. > > There is some money flowing into academia. There will always be some money flowing from the government, but it's nowhere near the same as it used to be. There is still $$ going into SRI as well, but it's probably over an order of magnitude less than it was 10 years ago, which means that things are a changing. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 20:00:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11597 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:00:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11463 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:59:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02545; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:58:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803040358.TAA02545@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: John Fieber cc: Nate Williams , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:29:31 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:58:12 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I must have a cool SMP in order to support tera bytes libraries, how else will I drive giganets with PCs, Cool if we get funding we can drive Internet II , etc... I know that there is money flowing around we need a couple of guys that know they way around Washington to get the money. Incidently, FreeBSD goverment backing is not restricted to the US 8) Cheers, Amancio > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > Wandering , if we can get a grant from the goverment to support the SMP > > > project or to support FreeBSD ? > > > > The government has no money for such things anymore. > > There is some money flowing into academia. The NSF digitial > library initiative is handing out about US$50 million this year. > Unfortunately, SMP devolpment would be on the fringes of their > agenda specified in their request for proposals. > > -john > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 20:05:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12908 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:05:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12802 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:05:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10494; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:34:51 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA21722; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:34:48 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980304143448.27241@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:34:48 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980303191755.14264@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 12:10:08PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 12:10:08 -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > On 03-Mar-98 Greg Lehey wrote: > > ... > >> Obviously there are a number of problems. But in fact it's not as >> difficult as it sounds. There's a problem with RAID 5 anyway if >> there's, say, a power failure during a write. After bringing it back >> up again, you can recognize that there's a parity error, but where? > > This sounds like an uncomitted transaction. Quite easy to arrange for a > rollback at boot time. You keep such gems in NVRAM, for example, or in a > known place on the disks, or you implement a journal, or... Sure, if you're doing it in hardware. >> Does that make sense? I'll try to formulate it more clearly if >> anybody has difficulty with the concepts. > > The only problem I have here, is the assumption that the O/S will do all > that. Not only it consumes much CPU, I/O bus, memory bandwidth, etc., but > O/S crashes are the number one cause of failure in any modern > computer. Sure. > Putting all this logic there is asking for it to crash frequently, > and run under load all the time. I don't think you can assume that. The load depends on the input. The reliability depends on the quality of the code. > I think that the RAID logic should be outside the VPU/O/S proper, > just like CRC checking is not done in the CPU anymode, and since > SCSI and IDE, so is data separation, PLL detection loops, etc. If > your data is so important to you, spend few dollars to get it done > in a predictable and reliable manner. You've made the point: spend a few dollars. It's a tradeoff between speed and cost. > BTW, Since 1984 or so, I NEVER lost data due to disk failure. I have. > I lost a LOT of data due to O/S failures, and some data due to bugs > in RAID logic. That, too, but *much* less. Maybe you've been using different operating systems? > Although I do not belive Seagate's claim for 1,000,000 hours MTBF, I > think the realized MTBF will far exceed any FreeBSD uptime. Especially not when it comes from Seagate :-) Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 21:16:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24386 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:16:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA24368 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:16:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 28135 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 05:23:10 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980303200652.07366@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:23:10 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Karl Denninger Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: Wilko Bulte , sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: ... > If the filesystem has news on it? Forget it. The small files blast the > hell out of restore (or pax, or anything else) during the creates - even > if > mounted async during that operation. It simply takes forever. I've > tried > copying a 4G news spool disk before - get ready for a 12 hour wait. I always thought news is an excellent candidate for a heavily cached RAID-0. 8 stripes or better. Some of my customers insist on RAID-5 which is very slow on WRITE. Never understood why. I figured out, whith 8 stripes on a RAID-0, you will fail /var/spool/news aboutevery 18 months. ... > Databases on Unix filesystems aren't safe. Neither are databases on raw > partitions. I've seen both lost due to physical problems. Ever see a > disk > adapter decide to "translate" a block address? I have - and guess what > happened to the database (this one was on a raw partition)? It was > over a week later before the problem was detected when the back-end > crashed > for no ascertainable reason, and the validate failed. That one wasn't my > responsibility, and the person who *WAS* the DBA wasn't doing the right > things with the TLOGs. Failures will occur, but if a database is on ``raw disk'' which is RAID-{1,5} on a relaible adapter, you will not have much to complain about. What I am nervous about, is running RAID-{1,5} in the Unix kernel. It makes the actualy integrity of your disks dependant on the sound driver, the VGA driver, X11, PPP, etc. Any bug in these not only will lay your filesystem to rest. It will take the ``disk'' with it. Then I have yet to see an in-kernel RAID that can truely recover concurrently with the O/S operation. I am not talking perfromance, I am taking functionality at all. ... >> True. Your perfromance also goes up with the smaller drives. You can >> stripe better. I think I mentioned it before in this forum; Most DBMS >> benchmarks only use 300MB of the disk. This is sort of the ``sweet >> spot'' >> between system cost and perfrormance. > > To a point this is true. The problem is that the smaller disks rotate > slower, and have bit densities that are lower. Yup. This is where you see a benchmark machine using 200 4 GB drives for a database of 50GB. Nobody can affrd such machine, but benchmarks being what they are. > There is a tradeoff between seek latency and transfer time. If there are > lots of small files, the huge number of small disks wins big. If there > are > a few large files, the small number of disks with speed on the physical > I/O > wins, provided you can seek sequentially. Yes, but they all end up on a SCSI bus. The great equalizer. At least I do not feel so lonely in my views any more :-) Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 21:25:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26019 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:25:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26009 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:25:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id XAA02559; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:24:45 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id XAA05534; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:24:44 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980303232444.59397@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:24:44 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: Wilko Bulte , sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980303200652.07366@mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 09:23:10PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 09:23:10PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > On 04-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: > > > If the filesystem has news on it? Forget it. The small files blast > the > > hell out of restore (or pax, or anything else) during the creates - even > > if > > mounted async during that operation. It simply takes forever. I've > > tried > > copying a 4G news spool disk before - get ready for a 12 hour wait. > > I always thought news is an excellent candidate for a heavily cached RAID-0. > 8 stripes or better. Some of my customers insist on RAID-5 which is very > slow on WRITE. Never understood why. I figured out, whith 8 stripes on a > RAID-0, you will fail /var/spool/news aboutevery 18 months. The probelm is getting enough cache to matter. We have a 25GB RAID 0+1 news spool. Its about half full right now, on its way upward (we keep tuning expiration times). There is basically ZERO locality of reference by the readers, which means that you'd need at least a couple of GB of RAM to make any difference at all. Now the RAID adapter helps - a lot - by striping the writes and reads, primarily. The ultra SCSI bus ends up being the controlling factor. > Failures will occur, but if a database is on ``raw disk'' which is > RAID-{1,5} on a relaible adapter, you will not have much to complain about. > What I am nervous about, is running RAID-{1,5} in the Unix kernel. It > makes the actualy integrity of your disks dependant on the sound driver, > the VGA driver, X11, PPP, etc. Any bug in these not only will lay your > filesystem to rest. It will take the ``disk'' with it. Then I have yet to > see an in-kernel RAID that can truely recover concurrently with the O/S > operation. I am not talking perfromance, I am taking functionality at all. Yep. The other problem is that a kernel RAID *cannot* do writeback caching. If it does, you're f*d if the power goes out or the OS goes down dirty. The standalones CAN do writeback, because they can have a battery on them AND if the CPU dies they keep running. RAID 5, in particular, benefits enormously from writeback, as it allows it to defer writes until an entire stripe is ready, which means no read/compute/write cycle. This is a monstrous win for performance. > >> True. Your perfromance also goes up with the smaller drives. You can > >> stripe better. I think I mentioned it before in this forum; Most DBMS > >> benchmarks only use 300MB of the disk. This is sort of the ``sweet > >> spot'' > >> between system cost and perfrormance. > > > > To a point this is true. The problem is that the smaller disks rotate > > slower, and have bit densities that are lower. > > Yup. This is where you see a benchmark machine using 200 4 GB drives for a > database of 50GB. Nobody can affrd such machine, but benchmarks being what > they are. Yep. > > There is a tradeoff between seek latency and transfer time. If there are > > lots of small files, the huge number of small disks wins big. If there > > are > > a few large files, the small number of disks with speed on the physical > > I/O > > wins, provided you can seek sequentially. > > Yes, but they all end up on a SCSI bus. The great equalizer. At least I > do not feel so lonely in my views any more :-) Well, yes. The best I've seen off our RAID systems right now is about 11MB/sec (that's megaBYTES, not bits). That's on an Ultra bus, with 2 ultra busses going to the RAID disks. Neither the disk buses nor the RAID controller CPU are saturated. I believe this is pretty much the wall on one SCSI channel, at least with 16 SCBs. I'm going to try it with SCBPAGING turned on and see if that helps, but for sequential reads it probably won't matter much. I could run two host channels on this thing across two RAID sets into two Adaptec adapters. That might be a big win. I suspect the bottleneck is in the AIC code at this point, or the bus itself, or the interrupt latency on the DMA completion is killing me. There is no appreciable difference between running at 40MB/sec (ultra full-bore) and 20MB/sec, indicating that perhaps the hold-up is in the Adaptec microcode, driver, and/or the Adaptec/PCI bus interface. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 21:45:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28719 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:45:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA28703 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:45:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 28523 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 05:52:15 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980304143448.27241@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:52:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: Wilko Bulte , sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Greg Lehey wrote: ... >> The only problem I have here, is the assumption that the O/S will do all >> that. Not only it consumes much CPU, I/O bus, memory bandwidth, etc., >> but >> O/S crashes are the number one cause of failure in any modern >> computer. > > Sure. > >> Putting all this logic there is asking for it to crash frequently, >> and run under load all the time. > > I don't think you can assume that. The load depends on the input. > The reliability depends on the quality of the code. It does not matter at all how good your code is. It matterswhat the sound driver decided to do, the PPP driver, the x25 driver, X11, serial console, etc. There is no compartmentalizing in Unix. This means that any failure in totally unrelated code WILL crash your code. In a RAID controller, as long is power is applied, and the hardware did not fail, the firmware has to worry about only one thing; the firmware. There are fewer interrupts, fewer processes, simpler O/S, no filesystem topaic with freeing free inode. Just SCSI devices on one side and (in the case of DPT, etc.) a PCI interface. I think the work you do is great and important, but the filesystem and volume managers are more interesting than the RAID stuff. When I joined Oracle, I thought just like you. The attitude there was that Oracle does not do ANY storage availability at all. This is in the platform. If the platform has RAID, then Oracle will have a more reliable storage. If not, not. It assumes that if (write(...) == 0) then the data can be read. This is how it was. I will be amazed if that changed. I tend these days to think the same way. If I can buy the realiability in a black box, for the cost of a single drive, and get a host of other features with it for free, and (in most real life cases) get also a better perfromance, why waste my time? Now, the Unix filesystem is a different matter altogether. It is totally volatile, explosive and self igniting. FreeBSD has a darn good one, but I have lost more than once filesystem to crashes. The best? ALL the executablesin /usr/local/bin turned into binary data files. Cool, eh? ... > You've made the point: spend a few dollars. It's a tradeoff between > speed and cost. Nope. the tradeoff is between cost and reliability. I will be har to convince that a PC, with its 1-2 processors can run at load 5.0 and above, on user code, and have enough CPU cycles to do all the parity for a RAID-5 array FASTER than a DPT (Mylex, whoever) that can throw a 160 MHz i960 at the problem, in a private memory space, do the RAID in hardware and do exactly one thing: Run the disk. I do not have to be a scientist to know that conputing 5 things takes more CPU than computing four. On an idle machine, doing nothing else, a P6-200 will run RAID-5 code almost as fast as an i960. If you want to have (for bandwidth, and redundency) more than one SCSI bus, and have, say 20 drives (on a typical full feed News server, etc.), you will still handle 20 times as many interrupts as a DPT card will give you. Sure, the DPT will take all these 20 interrupts, but it will not be serving an interrupt per keyboard keystroke, an interrupt per 16 bytes on the PPP link, interrupt per packet on the internet, etc. Mainframe designers learned this trick in the early 1960's. An IBM 370 had about 4 MIPS on a CPU, ig I remember right, and about 4MB of RAM and supported, OLTP load (airline reservations) with 10,000 terminals and half as manu disks. The architecture of these things is fascinating, the amount of intelligence and elegance is incredible. We have a lot to learn from these. They were the original distributed processing systems. >> BTW, Since 1984 or so, I NEVER lost data due to disk failure. > > I have. > >> I lost a LOT of data due to O/S failures, and some data due to bugs >> in RAID logic. > > That, too, but *much* less. Maybe you've been using different > operating systems? No, I use FreeBSD for the last 18 months. Seagate claims, in writing 1,000,000 hours mean time between failures on their drives. Can FreeBSD make that claim? Can Tandem make this claim about their O/S? No operating system written today (or EVER) can honestly make this claim. I think Seagate is full of it with this million hours nonsense. But 5 years of contineous operation is reasonable. I have Fujitsu drives and some Micropolis drives with that much contineous operation on them. Zero failures BTW, I know the difference between hardware and software. In theory software does not fail. In reality it does. Go to a company like Oracle, which makes money when their software does NOT demonstrat a bug; They make almost as much money from support as from sales. They have a huge army of talented programmers and they keep excellent records of their support. Ask them (they will probably say no :-) about the ratio of service loss due to hardware failure, vs. RDBMS failure, vs. O/S failure (when I was there we had 58 different ports), operator errors, applications failure. You come out of these presentation very sober. >> Although I do not belive Seagate's claim for 1,000,000 hours MTBF, I >> think the realized MTBF will far exceed any FreeBSD uptime. > > Especially not when it comes from Seagate :-) I think, left in the orignal container, in temperature controlled room, non-operational, it may survive for 500,000 hours. Maybe. Running in a badly cooled PC? 5 years top. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 22:16:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02461 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:16:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA02447 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:16:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 28856 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 06:23:33 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980303232444.59397@mcs.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:23:32 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Karl Denninger Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: Wilko Bulte , sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: ... > The probelm is getting enough cache to matter. > > We have a 25GB RAID 0+1 news spool. Its about half full right now, on > its > way upward (we keep tuning expiration times). There is basically ZERO > locality of reference by the readers, which means that you'd need at > least a > couple of GB of RAM to make any difference at all. Well known problem. Similar problems happen with RDBMS code in the CPU proper; How much L1/L2 cache can you throw at it. > Now the RAID adapter helps - a lot - by striping the writes and reads, > primarily. The ultra SCSI bus ends up being the controlling factor. Yup. And fast it is not. This is what I like about the DPT setup; I have three independant SCSI busses to work with. ... > Yep. The other problem is that a kernel RAID *cannot* do writeback > caching. > If it does, you're f*d if the power goes out or the OS goes down dirty. Yup. Layering and modularity and compartmentalizing take many shapes. > The standalones CAN do writeback, because they can have a battery on them > AND if the CPU dies they keep running. They are a true I/O Channel, in the mainframe tradition. > RAID 5, in particular, benefits enormously from writeback, as it allows > it to defer writes until an entire stripe is ready, which means no > read/compute/write cycle. This is a monstrous win for performance. I played, on the DPT with RAID{0,1,5} stripe size vs. perfromance. The numbers really move around. I used to even know how to compute this stuff... ... > The best I've seen off our RAID systems right now is about 11MB/sec > (that's > megaBYTES, not bits). That's on an Ultra bus, with 2 ultra busses going > to > the RAID disks. About right. SCSI-II used to be 4-5 MB/bus. Ultra-wide is about 5-6, for small O/S-type blocks. I see about 18 MB/Sec on the DPT on three busses. The difficulty is in having FreeBSD capable of producing this traffic on small blocks (dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/something bs=64k is NOT typical application). > Neither the disk buses nor the RAID controller CPU are saturated. I > believe this is pretty much the wall on one SCSI channel, at least with > 16 SCBs. I'm going to try it with SCBPAGING turned on and see if that > helps, but for sequential reads it probably won't matter much. Hook up a DPT to one of these boxes. Will be interesting to see what happens. Seriously. > I could run two host channels on this thing across two RAID sets into two > Adaptec adapters. That might be a big win. > > I suspect the bottleneck is in the AIC code at this point, or the bus > itself, or the interrupt latency on the DMA completion is killing me. > There is no appreciable difference between running at 40MB/sec (ultra > full-bore) and 20MB/sec, indicating that perhaps the hold-up is in the > Adaptec microcode, driver, and/or the Adaptec/PCI bus interface. I read the AIC code quite carefully when writing the DPT code. There is nothing obviously wrong with it. Justin is a very careful engineer. It is either the sequencer itself, or the SCSI layer, or FreeBSD. To get a DPT to saturate, you need about (with 4KB transfers, random across the entire array), 1,900 transactions per second. To reach 1,740 or so, from userspace, I have to run about 256 copies of st.c. The LA is about 220 at this point. Not very good for interactive work. Trying the same with SMP either crashes, or goes down to about 880 TPS. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 22:30:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05246 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:30:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from plugcom.ru (uucp@radiance.plugcom.ru [195.2.73.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05237 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:30:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Sarnoff.COM!rminnich@minas-tirith.pol.ru) Received: from minas-tirith.pol.ru (uucp@localhost) by plugcom.ru (8.8.7/8.8.6) with UUCP id JAA07001 for freebsd.org!hackers; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:30:00 +0300 (MSK) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by minas-tirith.pol.ru (8.8.8/8.8.7) with UUCP id GAA17513; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:33:49 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by plugcom.ru (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA07225; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:00:02 +0300 (MSK) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA23190; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:59:17 -0500 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:59:16 -0500 (EST) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Alex Povolotsky cc: freebsd.org!hackers@minas-tirith.pol.ru Subject: Re: Cluster? In-Reply-To: <199803020905.MAA01190@minas-tirith.pol.ru> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG well for starters see http://www.sarnoff.com:8000/, go to metacomputing. clusters for freebsd have existed here since 1994. ron Ron Minnich |Java: an operating-system-independent, rminnich@sarnoff.com |architecture-independent programming language (609)-734-3120 |for Windows/95 and Windows/NT on the Pentium ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 22:47:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07481 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:47:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from monk.via.net (monk.via.net [209.81.9.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA07468 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:47:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe@via.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by monk.via.net (8.6.11/8.6.12) id WAA03267 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:35:56 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:35:56 -0800 From: Joe McGuckin Message-Id: <199803040635.WAA03267@monk.via.net> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: URGENT HELP NEEDED X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've got a 2.2.5 system that I use as a web server. It's been running great. All of a sudden, no one can log in. Typing in a valid username/password results the following message: login: /bin/sh: permission denied Connection closed by foreign host. By the way, this happens if I try to login via the console as well. I can login as root. programs that are linked static run ok. Dynamic linked apps die with the following message: www# man Couldn't open /usr/libexec/ld.so. www# /var/log/messages has the following messages also: login: /bin/sh: permission denied Connection closed by foreign host. By the way, this happens if I try to login via the console as well. I can login as root. programs that are linked static run ok. Dynamic linked apps die with the following message: www# man Couldn't open /usr/libexec/ld.so. www# /var/log/messages has the following messages also: www login: _secure_path: cannot stat /home/joe/.login.conf: Permission denied www login: _secure_path: cannot stat /etc/login.conf: Permission denied There seems to be a general problem running dynamically linked apps. Login.conf, ld.so exist - have the proper permissions and have the same checksum as version on another 2.2.5 system. Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 22:53:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08498 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:53:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08487 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:53:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@narnia.plutotech.com) Received: (from gibbs@localhost) by narnia.plutotech.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id XAA14156; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:50:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:50:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Message-Id: <199803040650.XAA14156@narnia.plutotech.com> To: Tom cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: do you support Newsgroups: pluto.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971204 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.0-CURRENT (i386)) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article you wrote: > > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > >> > Then I'll consider you surprised then, because it is running CAM. >> >> I am surprised. 8) I wonder if the demon that did the backport would >> consider bundling it such that we could ship it as an optional extra? > > Well, this was discussed on freebsd-scsi I believe... > > Justin and/or Dave G are working on making a patchkit for 2.2-stable I > believe. I did the port of CAM back to 2.2 in December of last year after David called me up to complain, yet again, of instability in our current SCSI code. The patches have "rotted" and won't work with the most recent snapshot, but I plan to release patches for 2.2 in the next CAM snapshot (real soon now... I promise! 8-). > There is is even talking including CAM in the 2.2 branch after > 2.2.6. I suspect that would be done as a kernel option, because some > drivers are not CAMified yet. Not exactly. I talked about bringing into stable a few of the changes from current upon which CAM relies, to make it almost trivial to drop CAM into either current or stable. CAM may wind up on a branch in the near future, but it will not be "standard" in either current or stable until all current devices are supported. To respond to a few other comments in this thread: There are problems in the ahc driver in current that I've known about for some time. I'm sorry that certain users are plagued by these bugs, but I can't do anything more about them than I am already. Several of these bugs are simply unfixable in the SCSI framework in current. Instead of attempting patch after patch to attempt to hack around these issues, I decided to write the CAM code instead. I know it doesn't help that the last snapshot we released doesn't apply cleanly to a current, current, but I am working hard on rectifying this. So why is it that the NCR driver works so well? I think this is more a matter of perspective than fact. There are users of both the Adaptec and NCR cards that will say they work flawlessly and users who say they break in configuration X. It's my hope that as CAM is a much cleaner framework, we will be able to resolve these issues swiftly as CAM receives more testing. As for CAM being for the "true hacker" only, I don't think this needs to be the case. I'm focusing now on getting the next snapshot out so that proper installation media can be generated and once this is done, I don't anticipate users that can live with the limited device support in CAM having any reliability issues. The feature set of CAM grows daily and I hope that more and more people try using it. -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 22:57:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09124 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:57:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09119 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:57:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id RAA17396; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:59:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803040659.RAA17396@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: URGENT HELP NEEDED In-Reply-To: <199803040635.WAA03267@monk.via.net> from Joe McGuckin at "Mar 3, 98 10:35:56 pm" To: joe@via.net (Joe McGuckin) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:59:53 +1100 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joe McGuckin wrote: > I can login as root. programs that are linked static run ok. Dynamic linked > apps die with the following message: I had a similar situation with 2.2.5 recently caused by bad hardware (an old 486) which created a lot of disk errors which fsck "fixed" by moving whole slabs of the disk to lost+found. On one occasion it blew away most of /usr. I could log in as root, but just about anything else ended in tears. I tried different disks, thinking that was the problem. Then I swapped out the motherboard. Your problem might be different, but it's worth checking if all the required directories still exist; and if they contain the usual files. If you've got lots of lost+found entries, you can be there are missing files. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 23:08:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA10083 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:08:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA10077 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:08:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yA80m-0002Wc-00; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:50:40 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:50:38 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Joe McGuckin cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: URGENT HELP NEEDED In-Reply-To: <199803040635.WAA03267@monk.via.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Joe McGuckin wrote: > login: /bin/sh: permission denied > Connection closed by foreign host. > I can login as root. programs that are linked static run ok. Dynamic linked > www# man > Couldn't open /usr/libexec/ld.so. Check that you haven't mounted /usr with "nosuid", as this will break a lot of stuff. Also, is is possible to change permissions on "/"? I see that "/" contains a ".", so probably. That would break all kinds of non-root things. Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 23:22:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11482 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:22:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from monk.via.net (monk.via.net [209.81.9.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA11472 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:22:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joe@via.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by monk.via.net (8.6.11/8.6.12) id XAA03742; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:10:47 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:10:47 -0800 From: Joe McGuckin Message-Id: <199803040710.XAA03742@monk.via.net> To: tom@sdf.com Subject: Re: URGENT HELP NEEDED Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From tom@sdf.com Tue Mar 3 22:57:24 1998 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:50:38 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Joe McGuckin cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: URGENT HELP NEEDED MIME-Version: 1.0 Also, is is possible to change permissions on "/"? I see that "/" contains a ".", so probably. That would break all kinds of non-root things. Tom ----- End Included Message ----- Holy cow Batman!!! That's it. Somehow, '/' was changed to 700. I would have never thought of that. Why exactly does this break the system? Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 23:22:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11667 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:22:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA11636 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:22:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yA8Ec-0002Xf-00; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:04:58 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:04:57 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: "Ron G. Minnich" cc: Alex Povolotsky , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cluster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Ron G. Minnich wrote: > well for starters see http://www.sarnoff.com:8000/, go to metacomputing. > > clusters for freebsd have existed here since 1994. But that cluster design is focused on performance. The focus of this dicussion is reliability. For example, being able to migrate functions from a failed node to a functioning node with no user perceived losss of service. > ron > > Ron Minnich |Java: an operating-system-independent, > rminnich@sarnoff.com |architecture-independent programming language > (609)-734-3120 |for Windows/95 and Windows/NT on the Pentium > ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 23:25:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12462 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA12446 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:25:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yA8Gs-0002Xv-00; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:07:18 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:07:18 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Joe McGuckin cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: URGENT HELP NEEDED In-Reply-To: <199803040710.XAA03742@monk.via.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Joe McGuckin wrote: > Holy cow Batman!!! That's it. Somehow, '/' was changed to 700. > > I would have never thought of that. > > Why exactly does this break the system? It would mean that non-root users aren't allow to read any files, anywhere. It should not be surprising, as this is how permissions work everywhere. > Joe Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 23:29:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13346 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:29:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13213 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:28:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20116; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:25:29 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803040725.XAA20116@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Joe McGuckin cc: tom@sdf.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: URGENT HELP NEEDED In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 23:10:47 PST." <199803040710.XAA03742@monk.via.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 23:25:26 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > ----- Begin Included Message ----- > > >From tom@sdf.com Tue Mar 3 22:57:24 1998 > Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:50:38 -0800 (PST) > From: Tom > To: Joe McGuckin > cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: URGENT HELP NEEDED > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Also, is is possible to change permissions on "/"? I see that "/" > contains a ".", so probably. That would break all kinds of non-root > things. > > Tom > > ----- End Included Message ----- > > > Holy cow Batman!!! That's it. Somehow, '/' was changed to 700. You probably did something like # cd /root # chmod 0700 .* > I would have never thought of that. > > Why exactly does this break the system? It means that nothing can perform directory lookups anywhere unless it's running as root, because it can't traverse down from /. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 3 23:38:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15166 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:38:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (root@fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15154 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:38:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu) Received: from win95.local.sunyit.edu (A-T34.rh.sunyit.edu [150.156.210.241]) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA20794; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:39:54 GMT Message-ID: <011001bd473f$e71a1580$0600a8c0@win95.local.sunyit.edu> From: "Alfred Perlstein" To: "Joe McGuckin" , Subject: Re: URGENT HELP NEEDED Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:33:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hmmmm, are you sure all your disks got mounted ok? sounds like you are missing some partitions. your disk might have died, check the dmesg for bad sector reports... -Alfred -----Original Message----- From: Joe McGuckin To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tuesday, March 03, 1998 9:50 PM Subject: URGENT HELP NEEDED > >I've got a 2.2.5 system that I use as a web server. It's been running >great. > >All of a sudden, no one can log in. Typing in a valid username/password >results the following message: > > login: /bin/sh: permission denied > Connection closed by foreign host. > >By the way, this happens if I try to login via the console as well. > >I can login as root. programs that are linked static run ok. Dynamic linked >apps die with the following message: > > www# man > Couldn't open /usr/libexec/ld.so. > www# > >/var/log/messages has the following messages also: > > login: /bin/sh: permission denied > Connection closed by foreign host. > >By the way, this happens if I try to login via the console as well. > >I can login as root. programs that are linked static run ok. Dynamic linked >apps die with the following message: > > www# man > Couldn't open /usr/libexec/ld.so. > www# > >/var/log/messages has the following messages also: > > www login: _secure_path: cannot stat /home/joe/.login.conf: Permission denied > www login: _secure_path: cannot stat /etc/login.conf: Permission denied > >There seems to be a general problem running dynamically linked apps. > >Login.conf, ld.so exist - have the proper permissions and have the same >checksum as version on another 2.2.5 system. > >Joe > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 00:07:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA20228 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:07:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA20223 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:07:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca34-11.ix.netcom.com [207.93.143.139]) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA00202; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:07:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/8.6.9) id AAA14401; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:07:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:07:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803040807.AAA14401@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: mellon@pobox.com CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19980303155926.38453@techunix.technion.ac.il> (message from Anatoly Vorobey on Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:59:26 +0200) Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * I'm afraid you misunderstood the argument. I was talking about X11 ports * _that build without imake_. There're quite a few. rxvt(1) is a good example. I don't think there is any point in making Yet Another Bin Dir if it's just for non-imake X ports. Besides, if you take out USE_X11, it will go into /usr/local just like many other programs in there that use X. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 00:13:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21317 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:13:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arka.mtl.pl (root@mtl.pl [195.116.4.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA20900; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:10:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@arka.mtl.pl) Received: (from tom@localhost) by arka.mtl.pl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id JAA22324; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:10:17 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:10:17 +0100 (MET) From: Tomasz Zin To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Streamer Iomega Ditto 2GB Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Does support FreeBSD streamer Iomega Ditto 2GB? This is "floppy type". Tomasz Zin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 00:13:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21490 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:13:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc8.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA21350; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:13:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tg@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.90.6]) by ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA03639; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:12:59 +0100 (CET) Received: (from tg@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id JAA02062; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:12:58 +0100 (CET) To: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Cc: mellon@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff References: <199803040807.AAA14401@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 04 Mar 1998 09:12:58 +0100 In-Reply-To: asami@FreeBSD.ORG's message of Wed, 04 Mar 1998 00:07:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <87afb6x4ad.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.37/XEmacs 19.16 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) writes: > * I'm afraid you misunderstood the argument. I was talking about X11 ports > * _that build without imake_. There're quite a few. rxvt(1) is a good example. > > I don't think there is any point in making Yet Another Bin Dir if it's > just for non-imake X ports. Besides, if you take out USE_X11, it will > go into /usr/local just like many other programs in there that use X. Yup, but be careful about X resource files. Not everyone has XAPPRESDIR (or whatever it's called) set. tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 00:17:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA23117 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:17:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23106 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:17:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca34-11.ix.netcom.com [207.93.143.139]) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA00217; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/8.6.9) id AAA14455; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:17:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:17:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803040817.AAA14455@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: tg@ihf.rwth-aachen.de CC: mellon@pobox.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <87afb6x4ad.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> (message from Thomas Gellekum on 04 Mar 1998 09:12:58 +0100) Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Yup, but be careful about X resource files. Not everyone has * XAPPRESDIR (or whatever it's called) set. You're right. It may or may not work. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 01:10:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA28975 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:10:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA28967; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:10:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05127; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:09:04 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <34FD1A27.B491CF5@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:08:56 +0200 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Andrzej Bialecki , rssh@grad.kiev.ua, hackers Subject: Re: A web-based FreeBSD configuration tool. References: <9321.888930346@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > ? So, what is the minimal set of tasks that should be implemented in a test > ? version of admin tool, before you (or someone else from the team) will > ? consider it "nice AND worth pursuing" ...? > > It should take over at least one important function currently filled > by another (insufficiently sophisticated) tool. One example might > be adduser/deluser/edituser functionality. Another might be an rc.conf > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ it work now. > editor/merge utility. > > Jordan -- @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 01:35:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA01927 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:35:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA01912 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:35:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sos@sos.freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17137; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:35:00 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from sos) Message-Id: <199803040935.KAA17137@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: CCD & booting on / In-Reply-To: <19980304121026.00655@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 4, 98 12:10:26 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:35:00 +0100 (MET) Cc: regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: Søren Schmidt Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In reply to Greg Lehey who wrote: > On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 10:03:27 +0100, Philippe Regnauld wrote: > > Stop me when I'm falling over the edge :-) > > > > I'm interested in getting a machine with having every partition > > as a CCD mirror -- including /. > > My new ccd replacement, vinum, will be able to do that. Later. You > need to have two a partitions on two different drives. At boot time, > you boot from one of them as a standalone partition. When the first > phase of file system checks have past, you remount them as a vinum > volume. > > To do this, you need to place the partitions in a position which > matches the vinum configuration. It shouldn't be too difficult. You can do that with CCD as well, check options CCD_OFFSET :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 02:13:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05118 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:13:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA05111 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:12:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA00477 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:12:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803041012.CAA00477@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Java JIT for FreeBSD? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 02:12:54 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here is a nice pointer on Sun's HotSpot: http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-03-1998/jw-03-hotspot.html Wondering if we have any compiler experts in-house who could tackle the problem of JIT or extend kaffe to support jdk properly . Of course, if we extend kaffe with jdk we will not be able to distribute the mods. Enjoy, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 03:37:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16033 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:37:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.sminter.com.ar (ns1.sminter.com.ar [200.10.100.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA15929; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:37:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fpscha@ns1.sminter.com.ar) Received: (from fpscha@localhost) by ns1.sminter.com.ar (8.8.5/8.8.4) id IAA27579; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:35:02 -0300 (GMT) From: Fernando Schapachnik Message-Id: <199803041135.IAA27579@ns1.sminter.com.ar> Subject: Telnet from one FBSD to another throw Bay Networks System 5000 not working. To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, isp@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, bugs@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:35:01 -0300 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG *** 1 Warning: this is a very long message because it contains a lot of debugging data. Sorry. *** 2 Warning: please reply to me because I'm not in the list. Hello, I'm network manager at an ISP in Argentina. We have two kind of access servers: -Cisco 2500 routers. -Bay Networks Remote Access Concentrator boards (RAC 5399 on a Bay Networks System 5000). I can't get a TCP connection work from my FBSD at home any of the many we have here as servers when dialing to the System 5000. The most strange think is that the problem appears in a very particular scenario. Let me summarize: TCP connection: -From Windows to * throw Cisco: Ok. -From Windows to * throw Bay: Ok. -From FBSD to Solaris throw Cisco: Ok. -From FBSD to FBSD throw Cisco: Ok. -From FBSD to Solaris throw Bay: Ok. -From FBSD to FBSD throw Bay: No way! Yesterday I tested and collected as much information as possible: I logged from my FBSD to a Solaris (200.10.100.10) and to a FBSD (ns3.sminter.com.ar). I did it throw Cisco and throw Bay. At the bottom of this message is a uuencoded tgz that has: -ppp.log. Log of both connections. -cisco/typescript: capture of a session where I show netstat, ifconfig, and how telnet worked. -cisco/tcpdump: tcpdump -vv of the ppp interface. -bay/typescript: capture of a session where I show netstat, ifconfig, and how telnet did not worked. -bay/tcpdump: tcpdump -vv of the ppp interface. All the FBSD involved are 2.1.7.1 (sorry, I hadn't have time to upgrade yet :)). My support engeneer at Bay is getting a copy of these message. I'll let you know if I get any feedback from him. Thanks and regards. Fernando P. Schapachnik S&M Internet Here is the uuencode. begin 644 detail.tar.gz M'XL("/4[_30" V1E=&%I;"YT87( [%U;<]O&DLYC5E7Z!7D9UU;V4(E%SOV" M3;3E.':BBF_'LG?/EBMQ021DL4(2/ 1D65OGQV\/ !(#$B2']"AQ$D&42!' M]->7Z>F> =#G\4WOLUO>,.98"0'O&!.NBG>,:?5>;)]AR96B3#!,X'M"%)6? MB<]^@^TJR^,9D+R89OW+>/UQY\/)%B8K1JKW/\AV#OK/;Z9)UI\-I_DMZ9]@ M4"]?HW]",:6E_@F#7[N?<"S!7N[T?^O;6:%W9(60)P.43M"KJP0]C6<(,419 MQ&3$%2+&Z(,W!).?7R;]^#R>S9))U,O'TY,\&4V2'%&,N^1S]/G6U_"BGTXN MAN_0<7QX,)KB"%V,XG?9MUH3_,V+YZ?/7CTO_MX_.WWZXLFC?]Q_^OK)J].' 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Write cache disabling lowered the perfs from 2 to 10 time depending on operations. RAIDying inside the kernel can be a good 'cheap' solution even if i prefer it external (for the same reasons as Mr Shapiro). What i humbly demand is that, for those able to plug an UPS on their machines, the performances DO NOT DEGRADE in the name of security. I want perfs, i need perfs. Okay, i spent a lot of money for good and fast disks, i know that loosing a disk on a CCD will require restoring 18GB and that it will takes me 2 or 3 hours but i prefer this eventuality rather than the certainty of 20% performances decrease. whatever you decide in the future, *PLEASE* make it optional. TIA. > In many repsects, write caching could be obsolete soon... ;-). > Not sure IMHO. Typical wait time before write starts is 20 to 50 ms or half the internal disk buffers. Far less than sync daemon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 03:45:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA17700 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:45:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA17670 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:44:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23430; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:44:01 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Message-ID: <19980304134401.35933@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:44:01 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: Amancio Hasty , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? References: <199803040014.QAA01499@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199803040014.QAA01499@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 04:14:50PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 04:14:50PM -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Wandering , if we can get a grant from the goverment to support the SMP > project or to support FreeBSD ? > > "Me thinks that the current timing is purfect" 8) Netscape Corp. is a more likely candidate... they're going to need a fast, stable, cheap i386 OS in the near future, when Microsoft are at a lack to explain the slowness of SuiteSpot's networking, while they "don't experience similar problems with BackOffice on NT"... :) The user's aren't always going to buy Suns or SGIs. -Jeremy -- .sig.gz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 03:47:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA18153 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:47:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA18096; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:47:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sos@sos.freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17458; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:47:00 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from sos) Message-Id: <199803041147.MAA17458@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: Telnet from one FBSD to another throw Bay Networks System 5000 not working. In-Reply-To: <199803041135.IAA27579@ns1.sminter.com.ar> from Fernando Schapachnik at "Mar 4, 98 08:35:01 am" To: fpscha@ns1.sminter.com.ar (Fernando Schapachnik) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:47:00 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, isp@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, bugs@FreeBSD.ORG From: Søren Schmidt Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In reply to Fernando Schapachnik who wrote: > *** 1 Warning: this is a very long message because it contains a lot of > debugging data. Sorry. > *** 2 Warning: please reply to me because I'm not in the list. > > > Hello, > I'm network manager at an ISP in Argentina. We have two kind of access > servers: > -Cisco 2500 routers. > -Bay Networks Remote Access Concentrator boards (RAC 5399 on a Bay > Networks System 5000). > > I can't get a TCP connection work from my FBSD at home any of the > many we have here as servers when dialing to the System 5000. > > The most strange think is that the problem appears in a very > particular scenario. Let me summarize: > > TCP connection: > -From Windows to * throw Cisco: Ok. > -From Windows to * throw Bay: Ok. > -From FBSD to Solaris throw Cisco: Ok. > -From FBSD to FBSD throw Cisco: Ok. > -From FBSD to Solaris throw Bay: Ok. > -From FBSD to FBSD throw Bay: No way! Bay equipment is known to be unable to handle some of the more modern RFC's. You should try to set tcp_extensions="NO" in you /etc/sysconfig, thereby telling FreeBSD not to use those extensions, that should do the trick. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 04:15:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA24064 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24058 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:15:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA11815; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:53:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA08249; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:53:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:53:29 -0700 Message-Id: <199803041153.EAA08249@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Cc: Tom , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: do you support Newsgroups: pluto.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: <199803040650.XAA14156@narnia.plutotech.com> References: <199803040650.XAA14156@narnia.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > So why is it that the NCR driver works so well? I think this is > more a matter of perspective than fact. There are users of both > the Adaptec and NCR cards that will say they work flawlessly and > users who say they break in configuration X I don't know of any NCR users that have ever said it was broken. Either it worked, or it didn't. No corruptions, no weird error messages, if it was found it worked. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 04:25:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25280 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:25:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isvara.net (root@[130.88.148.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA25273 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:25:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@challenge.isvara.net) Received: from challenge.isvara.net ([130.88.66.5]) by isvara.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04240 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:24:56 GMT Message-ID: <34FD481D.B3CCB346@challenge.isvara.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:25:01 +0000 From: freebsd@isvara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Ethernet card driver Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I'm about to write an ethernet card driver (3Com 3C905), utilizing all the features of the card (Bus master DMA transfers, etc). What calls are required to interface to the kernel (I prefer not looking at other code, and writing from scratch) ? The functions {xxinit, xxattach, ...}have quite obvious names for what they should do, but I am unsure *exactly* what should be done were. Any help would be great. Cheers, Dan _____________________________________ Daniel J Blueman BSc Computation, UMIST, Manchester Email: blue@challenge.isvara.net Web: http://www.challenge.isvara.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 04:40:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27298 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:40:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from walter.doc.ic.ac.uk (tpYeu0BJZL49v+9A5aGWWsvxLhebrXk6@walter.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA27150 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:39:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31] ([BmchAoWCjGllqVVpcWQeLg7C8x3xuLkH]) by walter.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0yAD2R-0005Pu-00; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:12:43 +0000 Received: from oak2.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.17.7] ([3I3m0Zer1ew5CABu8AFvalyx24+D7ZzB]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0yACrR-0006AL-00; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:01:22 +0000 Received: from njs3 by oak2.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0yACqr-0005la-00; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:00:45 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:00:44 +0000 In-Reply-To: Tom "Re: Cluster?" (Mar 3, 11:04pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Tom , "Ron G. Minnich" Subject: Re: Cluster? Cc: Alex Povolotsky , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mar 3, 11:04pm, Tom wrote: } Subject: Re: Cluster? > > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Ron G. Minnich wrote: > > > well for starters see http://www.sarnoff.com:8000/, go to metacomputing. > > > > clusters for freebsd have existed here since 1994. > > But that cluster design is focused on performance. The focus of this > dicussion is reliability. For example, being able to migrate functions > from a failed node to a functioning node with no user perceived losss of > service. I think a good approach to transparent clustering is through distributed shared memory. However, the coherencey schemes used for high reliability (probably sequential consistency update-based) are different from those used for high performance (release or entry consistency, update or invalidate based). In addition, with high reliability systems you must cater for the case of atomic updates to a range of pages in the virtual shared memory space. (some varient of entry consistency might help here) For my final year project I'm working on a shared memory implementation for the Fujitsu AP3000 using entry consistency, when I graduate (if :)) I'd be more than interested in adding some DSM support to FreeBSD to support transparent fall-over clustering. Thats going to be a couple of months from now though. One particular thing that could benefit easily from this are DNS servers, other servers like mail and news wouldn't be so easy, because of the need for a reliable shared filesystem. Plus there is the problem of how to get clients of these servers to contact the redundant one in the event of a failure, I think someone has done something in this area using proxy arp... Niall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 07:10:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16747 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:10:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from heathers2.stdio.com (root@heathers2.stdio.com [199.89.192.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA16694 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:09:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lile@stdio.com) Received: (from lile@localhost) by heathers2.stdio.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23198; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:50:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:50:29 -0500 (EST) From: "Larry S. Lile" To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Interrupts during probe/attach? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is it possible to receive an interrupt from an adapter during probe/attach routines? I am working on a token ring driver and in order to initialize the card you have to latch/release/enable interrupts and wait... then the card will interrupt when it has finished. The problem is I can't seem to process an interrupt until all the other probe/attach routines finish. I have tried changing the spl level around my DELAY() but no interrupt. So are interrupts masked until later? or is DELAY() not interruptable? or am I doing something wrong? I can just poll the interrupt status register on the card if interrupts are masked during probe/attach but I just want to know if i'm doing something stupid. Larry Lile lile@stdio.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 07:10:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16802 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:10:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA16792 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:10:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@plutotech.com) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11577; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:10:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803041510.IAA11577@pluto.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Nate Williams cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , Tom , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: do you support In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 04:53:29 MST." <199803041153.EAA08249@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:07:01 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> So why is it that the NCR driver works so well? I think this is >> more a matter of perspective than fact. There are users of both >> the Adaptec and NCR cards that will say they work flawlessly and >> users who say they break in configuration X > >I don't know of any NCR users that have ever said it was broken. Either >it worked, or it didn't. No corruptions, no weird error messages, if it >was found it worked. > >Nate Read the NetBSD lists. -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 07:13:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17645 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:13:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA17571 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:13:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id IAA16855; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:15:24 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id IAA13916; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:15:23 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980304081523.61560@mcs.net> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:15:23 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: Wilko Bulte , sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980303232444.59397@mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:23:32PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:23:32PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > > RAID 5, in particular, benefits enormously from writeback, as it allows > > it to defer writes until an entire stripe is ready, which means no > > read/compute/write cycle. This is a monstrous win for performance. > > I played, on the DPT with RAID{0,1,5} stripe size vs. perfromance. The > numbers really move around. I used to even know how to compute this > stuff... :-) > > The best I've seen off our RAID systems right now is about 11MB/sec > > (that's > > megaBYTES, not bits). That's on an Ultra bus, with 2 ultra busses going > > to > > the RAID disks. > > About right. SCSI-II used to be 4-5 MB/bus. Ultra-wide is about 5-6, for > small O/S-type blocks. I see about 18 MB/Sec on the DPT on three busses. > The difficulty is in having FreeBSD capable of producing this traffic on > small blocks (dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/something bs=64k is NOT typical > application). Hmmm.... Well, I made some adjustments to the queueing algorythm in the controller this morning, and guess what - I now get ~17MB/Sec on two SCSI busses in RAID 0+1 mode. Now *that's* not bad. In RAID 5 mode I'm getting ~10MB/sec still, and I think I'm hitting the wall now on the disk I/O (since RAID 5 doesn't stripe data) rather than on the interface! Curiously enough, turning read-ahead in the controller on actually slows it *down* a bit. Not much, but a little bit. > Hook up a DPT to one of these boxes. Will be interesting to see what > happens. Seriously. I'll have to give that a shot. > > I could run two host channels on this thing across two RAID sets into two > > Adaptec adapters. That might be a big win. > > > > I suspect the bottleneck is in the AIC code at this point, or the bus > > itself, or the interrupt latency on the DMA completion is killing me. > > There is no appreciable difference between running at 40MB/sec (ultra > > full-bore) and 20MB/sec, indicating that perhaps the hold-up is in the > > Adaptec microcode, driver, and/or the Adaptec/PCI bus interface. > > I read the AIC code quite carefully when writing the DPT code. There is > nothing obviously wrong with it. Justin is a very careful engineer. > It is either the sequencer itself, or the SCSI layer, or FreeBSD. To get a > DPT to saturate, you need about (with 4KB transfers, random across the > entire array), 1,900 transactions per second. To reach 1,740 or so, from > userspace, I have to run about 256 copies of st.c. The LA is about 220 at > this point. Not very good for interactive work. > > Trying the same with SMP either crashes, or goes down to about 880 TPS. > > Simon -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 07:17:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18905 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:17:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (root@fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18171 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:15:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu) Received: from win95.local.sunyit.edu (A-T34.rh.sunyit.edu [150.156.210.241]) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA24237 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:15:31 GMT Message-ID: <000201bd477f$8fa02de0$0600a8c0@win95.local.sunyit.edu> From: "Alfred Perlstein" To: Subject: Urgent please read... Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:44:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In wake of the recent massive amount of disscussion about donations, The United FreeBSD Donation Orginization has been founded. (voiceover:) Imagine a hacker... alone at his computer... unable to function because of lack of Doritos and Jolt. He tries to program, but can't because lack of funds for takeout has left him with terrible malnutrition. What can you do? Well for 19cents a day, you can help one of our starving coders, imagine that, just 19cents a day, barely the price of a hot cappichino with almond flavoring, and that little sprinkle of cinnamon... (we all like cinnamon right?) that's JUST 20$ a month! Together we can help these poor individuals lead better, if not more healthier lives. The United FreeBSD Donation Orginization has been here for ummm, about a day or so and we plan to make a difference. Along with your donation you will recieve a FreeBSD cdrom, and documentation. You will also get updated pictures of your core team member To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 07:29:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20957 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:29:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA20926 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:29:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA00201; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:28:09 -0500 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:28:08 -0500 (EST) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Tom cc: Alex Povolotsky , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cluster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG yeah, but that's been done for the most part too. For example, we did mpeg encoding in parallel for several projects and demonstrated that you could walk up to a node or set of nodes, power them off, and continue to get your data. I'm assuming you've all looked at condor as well. Sorry, I missed part of this discussion. You can't run a cluster for anything useful without addressing failures. It's a given, much like AC power, which is why we don't talk about it that much. ron Ron Minnich |Java: an operating-system-independent, rminnich@sarnoff.com |architecture-independent programming language (609)-734-3120 |for Windows/95 and Windows/NT on the Pentium ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 07:36:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22453 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:36:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA22422 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:36:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA00241; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:34:04 -0500 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:34:04 -0500 (EST) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Niall Smart cc: Tom , "Ron G. Minnich" , Alex Povolotsky , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cluster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Mar 3, 11:04pm, Tom wrote: > I think a good approach to transparent clustering is through distributed > shared memory. However, the coherencey schemes used for high reliability yes, this has been an active area too. DSM is great, we build 'em, we use 'em, but it's not the panacea. It's just good for some things, poor for others. > I'd be more than interested in adding some DSM support to FreeBSD > to support transparent fall-over clustering. well, it's a nice goal, the trick is getting the VM fixed, and other pieces fixed, so that it will work. I tried to get this to happen in 1994, when I offered FreeBSD MNFS (see web page for info on MNFS), but the reception was muted, although some projects in some places did use MNFS. Note that Chuck Cranor's UVM fixes the problems, but it is only in OpenBSD and NetBSD. ah well. In terms of crash resilience: while not perfect, MNFS was as crash resilient as NFS, and in fact we used it to support DSM for migrating Condor processes. Condor processes migrate by sending themselves a signal and dumping core, and then restarting the corefile elsewhere. ron To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 08:02:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25051 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:02:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from enteract.com (good@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25045 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:02:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from good@enteract.com) Received: (from good@localhost) by enteract.com (8.8.8/8.7.6) id KAA21666; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:02:03 -0600 (CST) From: The Good/John Scholvin Message-Id: <199803041602.KAA21666@enteract.com> Subject: Re: Help: 2.2.5 crashing on boot after I add RAM To: khansen@njcc.com Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:02:02 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <34FC31FA.5B5D@njcc.com> from "Ken Hansen" at Mar 3, 98 11:38:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ken Hansen wrote: > The Good/John Scholvin wrote: > > I've got an old Compaq Contura 4/25 laptop which I'm trying to install 2.2.5 > > on, and I've got a problem I can't figure out. The machine boots the GENERIC > > kernel fine when it has 8MB RAM installed. I've got an expansion RAM card > > which, when installed, ups the total to 20MB. > > I wonder if the ram expansion is good - have you tried using the same > exp. board > under a different OS - Win or other? Just a thought... Well, how embarrassing. Turns out I got bad RAM. DOS booted OK but I never tried running Windows, and DOS never exercised the high addresses since I don't have HIMEM or any of that junk. A little diagnostic tool found the bad bits up around the 15M point. Thanks for the advice, and thanks to all you FreeBSD hackers for putting out an unbelievably cool product. John -- good@enteract.com is The Good, or probably John Scholvin speaking for them. OUR WEB SITE IS UP! Check out http://www.enteract.com/~good To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 08:18:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27543 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:18:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from loewe.cosy.sbg.ac.at (loewe.cosy.sbg.ac.at [141.201.2.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA27534 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:18:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pmeerw@cosy.sbg.ac.at) Received: from laus.cosy.sbg.ac.at (pmeerw@laus.cosy.sbg.ac.at [141.201.2.42]) by loewe.cosy.sbg.ac.at (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24478; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:18:23 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:53:56 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Meerwald To: "Larry S. Lile" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interrupts during probe/attach? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Larry, > Is it possible to receive an interrupt from an adapter during > probe/attach routines? I am working on a token ring driver and no, the interrupt handler is installed after probe/attach (see /sys/i386/isa/isa.c) Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 08:24:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28922 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:24:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from att.com (cagw1.att.com [192.128.52.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA28753 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:23:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sbabkin@dcn.att.com) From: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Received: by cagw1.att.com; Wed Mar 4 11:16 EST 1998 Received: from dcn71.dcn.att.com (dcn71.dcn.att.com [135.44.192.112]) by caig1.att.att.com (AT&T/GW-1.0) with ESMTP id LAA05177 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:23:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by dcn71.dcn.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:25:37 -0500 Message-ID: To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, karl@mcs.net Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:25:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > ---------- > From: Karl Denninger[SMTP:karl@mcs.net] > > > > I wrote a white paper at Oracle some years ago, claiming that > databases > > over a certain size simply cannot be backed up. I became very > UN-popular > > very quickly. In you moderate setup, you already see the proof of > > corectness. > > Correct. I consider any "regular" filesystem with more than 4G of > data on > Databases are not regular filesystems. They have little number of big files. > it to be unrestorable, simply because there isn't enough time to do > the > restore and not get skewered. > Save it to tape as an image of logical disk. Restore it in the same way. With things like OnlineJFS you can even do save it online. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 08:31:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00232 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:31:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iclub.nsu.ru (iclub.nsu.ru [193.124.222.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA00214 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:31:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from semen@iclub.nsu.ru) Received: from localhost (semen@localhost) by iclub.nsu.ru (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA09306 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:33:07 +0600 (NS) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:33:06 +0600 (NS) From: Ustimenko Semen To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Are mbufs aligned or bounded on something? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello! The question is above. In other words: should i care about mbuf cluster is bounded on PAGE_SIZE in physical memory. Thank you! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 08:34:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00881 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:34:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (root@fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA00835 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:34:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu) Received: from win95.local.sunyit.edu (A-T34.rh.sunyit.edu [150.156.210.241]) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA25142; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:35:59 GMT Message-ID: <001101bd478a$cded93c0$0600a8c0@win95.local.sunyit.edu> From: "Alfred Perlstein" To: "Alfred Perlstein" , Subject: Re: (don't) Urgent please read... Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:30:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ooops... sorry if i offended anyone, this was just a draft and a joke didn't mean to send it out :) -----Original Message----- From: Alfred Perlstein To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wednesday, March 04, 1998 6:23 AM Subject: Urgent please read... >In wake of the recent massive amount of disscussion about donations, The >United FreeBSD Donation Orginization has been founded. > > > >(voiceover:) >Imagine a hacker... alone at his computer... unable to function because of >lack of Doritos and Jolt. >He tries to program, but can't because lack of funds for takeout has left >him with terrible malnutrition. > >What can you do? > >Well for 19cents a day, you can help one of our starving coders, imagine >that, just 19cents a day, barely the price of a hot cappichino with almond >flavoring, and that little sprinkle of cinnamon... (we all like cinnamon >right?) >that's JUST 20$ a month! > >Together we can help these poor individuals lead better, if not more >healthier lives. > >The United FreeBSD Donation Orginization has been here for ummm, about a day >or so and we plan to make a difference. > >Along with your donation you will recieve a FreeBSD cdrom, and >documentation. >You will also get updated pictures of your core team member > > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 09:11:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04875 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:11:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04832 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA17021; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd017000; Wed Mar 4 09:05:58 1998 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:01:47 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: "Larry S. Lile" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interrupts during probe/attach? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Larry S. Lile wrote: > > Is it possible to receive an interrupt from an adapter during > probe/attach routines? I am working on a token ring driver and > in order to initialize the card you have to latch/release/enable > interrupts and wait... then the card will interrupt when it has > finished. The problem is I can't seem to process an interrupt > until all the other probe/attach routines finish. I have > tried changing the spl level around my DELAY() but no interrupt. > > So are interrupts masked until later? or is DELAY() not > interruptable? or am I doing something wrong? No, Interupts are not fully set up at this time > > I can just poll the interrupt status register on the card if > interrupts are masked during probe/attach but I just want to > know if i'm doing something stupid. > you are doing what others do, which is poll. If you are certain that the interrupt is known, then you can break your initialiasation into 2 parts and do the 2nd part later when interrupts are up. In -current there is a function config_intrhook_establish() (yech what a name) which you call with a structure that defines a function to call after interrupts are enabled. you can use this to do part 2 of yuo rinitialisation.. (that's what it's for) (I has a similar function as part of the SLICE code but I've switched to using this ine that has been commited by Justin. > Larry Lile > lile@stdio.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 09:15:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05900 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:15:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from att.com (cagw2.att.com [192.128.52.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA05832 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:14:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sbabkin@dcn.att.com) From: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Received: by cagw2.att.com; Wed Mar 4 11:15 EST 1998 Received: from dcn71.dcn.att.com (dcn71.dcn.att.com [135.44.192.112]) by caig2.att.att.com (AT&T/GW-1.0) with ESMTP id LAA19926 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:18:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by dcn71.dcn.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:20:06 -0500 Message-ID: To: karl@mcs.net, shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:20:03 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > ---------- > From: Simon Shapiro[SMTP:shimon@simon-shapiro.org] > > > > The problem isn't even necessarily the data loss - its the restore > time. > > A > > 9G drive takes a shitload of time to reload from even the fastest > DLT > > drive. > > > > We still run tapes nightly for incrementals, and weekly for full > dumps - > > but > > they are more for the "aw shit" user-induced stupidity (like the > infamous > > "rm -rf *") rather than hardware coverage. The pain of a restore > across > > disks of this size is just too darn big. > > I wrote a white paper at Oracle some years ago, claiming that > databases > over a certain size simply cannot be backed up. I became very > UN-popular > very quickly. In you moderate setup, you already see the proof of > corectness. > IMHO they CAN be backed up. As long as you have enough spare equipment. At my previous work in bank where we were paranoid about backup and downtime I think I have found a scaleable way of doing so. We used it on a relatively small database (~15G) but I can't see why it can not be scaled. First, forget about exports. Copy the database files and archived logs. Additionally to the production instance have two more instances. One gets archived logs copied and rolled forward immediately. Another one gets archived logs copied immediately, but rolled forward only after they aged. Copy this third instance to tapes time to time. Copy archived logs to tape as fast as they get produced. If the production instance crashes, use the second one. If someone removed a table and that was more recently than the age of third instance, start this instance and get this table from it. If this removal was noticed too late, there will be big PITA with restoring from tapes. Do offline (better but with downtime) or online backup if you do reset logs. This can be done fast if the I/O subsystem is has enough throughput to copy all the disks of database to backup disks in parallel, and if the disks can be remapped between machines easily. For 4G disks this will be not more than 1 hour. > This is why most MIS types shiver when they hear about databases on > Unix > filesystems. All you need is a crash and fsck in a bad mood. If you > are > Nope. Databases must have dedicated filesystems. And as long there are no files created or removed in these filesystems or blocks added or removed to/from any files in them (in other words, no change of metadata, what is normal for databases) there is no chance that you will lose your database. I know that not everyone follows this rule (looks like everyone in AT&T does not do it) but this is their personal problem and not the problem of Unix. > lucky, the entire data base is gone. If you are unlucky, a block will > disappear form somewhere in the middle, and you will find out a week > later. > Now backup is literally useless. > -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 10:09:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14231 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:09:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA14063 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:09:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yAII3-000329-00; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:49:11 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:48:50 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Niall Smart cc: "Ron G. Minnich" , Alex Povolotsky , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cluster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Niall Smart wrote: > I think a good approach to transparent clustering is through distributed > shared memory. However, the coherencey schemes used for high reliability Or via a distributed lock manager, and shared disk storage. I understand this is how current cluster development is going. > of months from now though. One particular thing that could benefit > easily from this are DNS servers, other servers like mail and news wouldn't DNS? DNS already has excellent fault-tolerant capabilities. > be so easy, because of the need for a reliable shared filesystem. Plus > there is the problem of how to get clients of these servers to contact > the redundant one in the event of a failure, I think someone has done > something in this area using proxy arp... This is the important bit. IP address assumption is critical. Some clusters do it by assuming the MAC address to ensure an instant transition. > Niall Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 10:26:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18241 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:26:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18208 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:26:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA14314; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:26:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA10104; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:26:03 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:26:03 -0700 Message-Id: <199803041826.LAA10104@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Peter Meerwald Cc: "Larry S. Lile" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interrupts during probe/attach? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Is it possible to receive an interrupt from an adapter during > > probe/attach routines? I am working on a token ring driver and > > no, the interrupt handler is installed after probe/attach (see > /sys/i386/isa/isa.c) Except in the case of PCCARD devices (this is a bug). Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 10:40:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20549 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:40:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.91.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA20510 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:40:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from trojanhorse.pr.watson.org (trojanhorse.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.10]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA22553; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:38:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:38:44 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@trojanhorse.pr.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Niall Smart cc: Tom , "Ron G. Minnich" , Alex Povolotsky , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cluster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Niall Smart wrote: > For my final year project I'm working on a shared memory implementation > for the Fujitsu AP3000 using entry consistency, when I graduate (if :)) > I'd be more than interested in adding some DSM support to FreeBSD > to support transparent fall-over clustering. Thats going to be a couple > of months from now though. One particular thing that could benefit > easily from this are DNS servers, other servers like mail and news wouldn't > be so easy, because of the need for a reliable shared filesystem. Plus > there is the problem of how to get clients of these servers to contact > the redundant one in the event of a failure, I think someone has done > something in this area using proxy arp... Niall, It is not clear to me how DNS servers would benefit from this type of replication and migration -- DNS provides inherrent replication of data, as well as load distribution. I can see how this might be useful for dynamic DNS where only the primary can perform updating activity, but a better approach might be to fix DNS. :) What might benefit from what you describe, however, are distributed file system servers, where the server processes themselves could be replicated and migrated as needed to retain transparency to current clients. I'm still not sure I like this primary-backup approach to replication, however, as you lose the advantages of replication in the area of performance, for network services? For clustered computational work, however, there are no debates about performance :). Hiding clustering of network services as well as retaining reliability is a very interesting problem -- perhaps use of a NAT to do magic would help here? Robert N Watson Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 10:58:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26379 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:58:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA26296 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:57:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08031 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:57:52 -0300 (EST) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199803041857.PAA08031@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: dump bug or file system problem ? To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:57:51 -0300 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I've sent this to -questions (and got no answer), but after reading the sources of dump, I think it's more a -hackers question. I'm right now trying to make a dump of my file system, but it seems to never end (dumping to /dev/null to make sure it's not a tape problem): gaia::jonny [503] dump 0fa /dev/null /usr DUMP: Date of this level 0 dump: Wed Mar 4 13:57:54 1998 DUMP: Date of last level 0 dump: the epoch DUMP: Dumping /dev/rsd0f (/usr) to /dev/null DUMP: mapping (Pass I) [regular files] DUMP: mapping (Pass II) [directories] DUMP: estimated 1545215 tape blocks. DUMP: dumping (Pass III) [directories] DUMP: 27.30% done, finished in 0:13 DUMP: 57.87% done, finished in 0:07 DUMP: 88.27% done, finished in 0:01 DUMP: 119.27% done, finished in 0:-3 DUMP: 148.05% done, finished in 0:-8 DUMP: 176.90% done, finished in 0:-13 DUMP: 208.32% done, finished in 0:-18 DUMP: 240.57% done, finished in 0:-23 DUMP: 270.01% done, finished in 0:-28 DUMP: 300.63% done, finished in 0:-33 DUMP: 332.25% done, finished in 0:-38 DUMP: 363.33% done, finished in 0:-43 DUMP: 393.50% done, finished in 0:-48 DUMP: 418.82% done, finished in 0:-53 DUMP: 445.49% done, finished in 0:-58 DUMP: 473.04% done, finished in -1:-3 DUMP: 502.15% done, finished in -1:-8 DUMP: 530.49% done, finished in -1:-13 DUMP: 558.39% done, finished in -1:-17 (and continues...) The first think I thought was a problem with integer length in dump, but I've never had this before and could not find a problem like that in dump sources. It seems to be able to handle file systems with 2^41 bytes, and that is definitely not my case. And not all of them beeing directories. Other possibility is a file system problem. I've had problems with it in the last weeks, with panic "freeing a free frag" or something like that. At this time, fsck finds no error, though. I would love any hint that could help me solving this problem. This is what df reports on this file system: Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity iused ifree %iused Mounted on /dev/sd0f 1822017 1486754 189502 89% 70480 374958 16% /usr Thanks in advance, Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 11:07:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28693 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:07:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA28675 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:07:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 8449 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 19:14:28 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980304081523.61560@mcs.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:14:28 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Karl Denninger Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, Wilko Bulte Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: ... > Hmmm.... Well, I made some adjustments to the queueing algorythm in the > controller this morning, and guess what - I now get ~17MB/Sec on two SCSI > busses in RAID 0+1 mode. Now *that's* not bad. In RAID 5 mode I'm > getting > ~10MB/sec still, and I think I'm hitting the wall now on the disk I/O > (since > RAID 5 doesn't stripe data) rather than on the interface! These are good numbers. Play with RAID-5 stripe size. You may see jumps in perfromance. > Curiously enough, turning read-ahead in the controller on actually slows > it *down* a bit. Not much, but a little bit. Of course. For RAID-5 it is normal. I set the DPT to ZERO. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 11:15:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00345 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:15:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00286 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:14:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA06569; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:14:41 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id NAA08084; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:14:41 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980304131441.31888@mcs.net> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:14:41 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980304081523.61560@mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 11:14:28AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 11:14:28AM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > On 04-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: > ... > > > Hmmm.... Well, I made some adjustments to the queueing algorythm in the > > controller this morning, and guess what - I now get ~17MB/Sec on two SCSI > > busses in RAID 0+1 mode. Now *that's* not bad. In RAID 5 mode I'm > > getting > > ~10MB/sec still, and I think I'm hitting the wall now on the disk I/O > > (since > > RAID 5 doesn't stripe data) rather than on the interface! > > These are good numbers. Play with RAID-5 stripe size. You may see jumps > in perfromance. > > > Curiously enough, turning read-ahead in the controller on actually slows > > it *down* a bit. Not much, but a little bit. > > Of course. For RAID-5 it is normal. I set the DPT to ZERO. > > Simon Do you have a computation available for the 'optimum' stripe size (in blocks)? -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 11:24:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02566 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:24:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA02509 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:24:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA20906 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:24:07 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA01426; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:48:38 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803041848.TAA01426@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: Urgent please read... In-Reply-To: <000201bd477f$8fa02de0$0600a8c0@win95.local.sunyit.edu> from Alfred Perlstein at "Mar 4, 98 05:44:16 am" To: perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:48:38 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Alfred Perlstein wrote... > In wake of the recent massive amount of disscussion about donations, The > United FreeBSD Donation Orginization has been founded. > > > > (voiceover:) > Imagine a hacker... alone at his computer... unable to function because of > lack of Doritos and Jolt. > He tries to program, but can't because lack of funds for takeout has left > him with terrible malnutrition. Or: Unable to program due to starving felines going for his throat for lack of catfood... > What can you do? > > Well for 19cents a day, you can help one of our starving coders, imagine > that, just 19cents a day, barely the price of a hot cappichino with almond > flavoring, and that little sprinkle of cinnamon... (we all like cinnamon > right?) Argh. All those things Americans throw in their coffee... We tend to think most additions should 've been listed in the Geneva Convention on Chemical Warfare. :-) _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 11:24:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02623 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:24:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA02511 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:24:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA20898 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:24:05 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA01389; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:43:16 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803041843.TAA01389@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 04:09:52 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:43:16 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 03-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > ... > > > Drive write caches are Evil. Every write cache without good battery > > backup > > is Evil. Talk to a DBMS guy about enabling disk write caches. Put > > sneakers > > on and be prepared to run fast... > > Nah, we just smile at you and put your reume in the can... And rightfully so :) > Actually, there are ways around that. I promised to make them available on > FreeBSD and I will. Real Soon Now. I am waiting for hardware for > testing... Anxiously awaiting. I just missed an opportunity today to obtain a Mylex DAC960 3 channel RAIDcard. Bah. > > But then again, with VM systems that have megabytes worth of unflushed > > data the best way to loose your data is to pull the plug from your server > > ;-) > > Top said, on last make world that there are 158MB of buffers in use. This > is 5 times the total disk capacity on the first Unix port I tried to > compile. Scary. I had Ultrix-11 running on an PDP11/34 256k mem and 2x RK05. Slow as molasses but it worked. Had a couple of fresh CS weenies watch it in awe. Still have this 11/23 and 11/73 in the basement waiting for a memorable event in Unix history (maybe a major earthquake in Redmond? ;-) > Terry? Any thoughts on hot-starting a Unix based PC? We need to dump > memory quickly, I think. No way to preserve DRAM across BIOS resets I know > of. Assuming we have the ability to dump memory quickly (see below), can > we just snap a state, dump it, leave a signature and resume at power up? > > We had that on VAXes with VMS (Not AT&T Unix, and I do not think BSD). A couple of years ago while working at Philips Info Systems we had a SysV2 derivative that could do powerfail/restart (as we called it). It used some battery backed up RAM, and it was not a PC (M68K cpu). Having never worked on that kernel I don't know how they did it. But it worked pretty well. > Memory SNAP: If you write it into a DPT controller, and the controller has > enough cache to hold it, it is pretty fast. I can sustain about 2us per > transaction overhead and about 120MB/Sec. This gives us about a second or > two. The new DPT's can retain the cache until power returns. > Even a small UPS (with poer alarms will last long enough. But how do you checkpoint things? So, where did the processor leave off? _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 11:24:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02681 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:24:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA02553 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:24:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA20890 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:24:04 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA01322; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:33:47 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803041833.TAA01322@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 04:13:29 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:33:47 +0100 (MET) Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > On 03-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > > ... > > > The trick is cute, but it was used to park heads in the drives I saw. > > Not for flushing on drive caches. There would not be enough power to > > do e.g. a seek in order flush the cache. And by definition your platter > > rpm is dead wrong, you essentially use the whole thing as a > > electromagnetic brake. Not nice. > > I could swear the old Priam 14" had something like 0.5 sec before RPM will > degrad. And I am pretty sure it could flush all 2K of cache (2 seeks and > two rotations worst case with 1k sectors), but I could be wrong. 2K yes. Did you find any 2K RAMs the last time you looked in the catalog? ;-) > Most modern drives use the motor as an electromagnetic break. Try to snap > off the motor leads and you see the difference in spin-down time. I have > :-) I know. I've done my share of demolishing drives. Very enlightening, highly recommended to all these software-only techies that crowd the streets today :) _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 11:25:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02859 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:25:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA02729 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:24:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA20866 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@freebsd.org); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:23:59 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA01136; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:05:12 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803041805.TAA01136@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 10:23:32 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:05:12 +0100 (MET) Cc: karl@mcs.net, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 04-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: > > ... > > > The best I've seen off our RAID systems right now is about 11MB/sec > > (that's > > megaBYTES, not bits). That's on an Ultra bus, with 2 ultra busses going > > to > > the RAID disks. > > About right. SCSI-II used to be 4-5 MB/bus. Ultra-wide is about 5-6, for > small O/S-type blocks. I see about 18 MB/Sec on the DPT on three busses. > The difficulty is in having FreeBSD capable of producing this traffic on > small blocks (dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/something bs=64k is NOT typical > application). Build a datawarehouse and do full-table reads etc. For dataprocessing etc you will never come near. We've seen host adapters becoming saturated before the RAIDbox. This is of course using an artificial benchmark that produces 100% cache hits on the RAIDbox' cache. > > I could run two host channels on this thing across two RAID sets into two > > Adaptec adapters. That might be a big win. That could be possible, highly depends on the adapter & driver. But for single stream a well written driver & good card will probably not be the bottleneck. Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 11:25:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02916 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:25:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA02786 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:24:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA20925 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:24:11 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id UAA01584; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:14:47 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803041914.UAA01584@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 09:52:15 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:14:47 +0100 (MET) Cc: grog@lemis.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 04-Mar-98 Greg Lehey wrote: > ... > > >> The only problem I have here, is the assumption that the O/S will do all > >> that. Not only it consumes much CPU, I/O bus, memory bandwidth, etc., > >> but > >> O/S crashes are the number one cause of failure in any modern > >> computer. > > > > Sure. > > > >> Putting all this logic there is asking for it to crash frequently, > >> and run under load all the time. > > > > I don't think you can assume that. The load depends on the input. > > The reliability depends on the quality of the code. > > It does not matter at all how good your code is. It matterswhat the sound > driver decided to do, the PPP driver, the x25 driver, X11, serial console, > etc. There is no compartmentalizing in Unix. This means that any failure > in totally unrelated code WILL crash your code. In a RAID controller, as > long is power is applied, and the hardware did not fail, the firmware has > to worry about only one thing; the firmware. There are fewer interrupts, > fewer processes, simpler O/S, no filesystem topaic with freeing free inode. And best of all: no users.. We all know that systems tend to stay up much longer when left alone (read: dedicated to say WWW serving or something like that). > No, I use FreeBSD for the last 18 months. Seagate claims, in writing > 1,000,000 hours mean time between failures on their drives. Can FreeBSD Read the fine print on MTBF: it applies to large enough populations. You as Joe Average user will never have a statistically sound sample to claim anything. So they can essentially write down what they like. > make that claim? Can Tandem make this claim about their O/S? No operating > system written today (or EVER) can honestly make this claim. I think > Seagate is full of it with this million hours nonsense. But 5 years of > contineous operation is reasonable. I have Fujitsu drives and some > Micropolis drives with that much contineous operation on them. Zero > failures _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 11:25:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03046 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:25:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA02953 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:25:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA20914 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:24:08 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA01178; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:10:21 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803041810.TAA01178@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: do you support In-Reply-To: <199803041510.IAA11577@pluto.plutotech.com> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at "Mar 4, 98 08:07:01 am" To: gibbs@plutotech.com (Justin T. Gibbs) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:10:21 +0100 (MET) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, gibbs@plutotech.com, tom@sdf.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Justin T. Gibbs wrote... > >> So why is it that the NCR driver works so well? I think this is > >> more a matter of perspective than fact. There are users of both > >> the Adaptec and NCR cards that will say they work flawlessly and > >> users who say they break in configuration X > > > >I don't know of any NCR users that have ever said it was broken. Either > >it worked, or it didn't. No corruptions, no weird error messages, if it > >was found it worked. > > > >Nate > > Read the NetBSD lists. There seem to be a lot of NetBSD users that have lotsa problems with the ncr. On my Alpha it works just fine. The 2 in my FreeBSD box also work fine. But be careful: it seems that the NetBSD problems are (highly) sensitive to the brand/model of devices attached to it. So it looks to me like a less than optimal behaviour of the driver when confronted with less-than-optimal firmware/devices. > Justin _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 11:26:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03315 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:26:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA03208 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:26:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA20932 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:24:12 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id UAA01618; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:19:51 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803041919.UAA01618@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 09:23:10 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:19:51 +0100 (MET) Cc: karl@mcs.net, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 04-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: > > ... > > I always thought news is an excellent candidate for a heavily cached RAID-0. > 8 stripes or better. Some of my customers insist on RAID-5 which is very > slow on WRITE. Never understood why. I figured out, whith 8 stripes on a > RAID-0, you will fail /var/spool/news aboutevery 18 months. News is volatile data IMHO. If you loose it, though luck. So striping is fine. Or use RAID0+1 if you insist on disk redundancy (and have some money to burn on the project) > >> True. Your perfromance also goes up with the smaller drives. You can > >> stripe better. I think I mentioned it before in this forum; Most DBMS > >> benchmarks only use 300MB of the disk. This is sort of the ``sweet > >> spot'' > >> between system cost and perfrormance. > > > > To a point this is true. The problem is that the smaller disks rotate > > slower, and have bit densities that are lower. > > Yup. This is where you see a benchmark machine using 200 4 GB drives for a > database of 50GB. Nobody can affrd such machine, but benchmarks being what > they are. Interestingly enough these benchmarks are mostly run with direct attached disks, no RAID controller in sight. Assuming enough CPU horsepower (a AlphaServer 8400 will do just fine with 8x 625Mc CPU will do...) you do striping on the machine. Lots faster than any RAIDbox. Who cares about data integrity, it is TPC you want for the glossies. Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 11:27:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03675 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:27:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA03488 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:27:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 8967 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 19:33:57 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:33:57 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com, karl@mcs.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: ... >> I wrote a white paper at Oracle some years ago, claiming that >> databases >> over a certain size simply cannot be backed up. I became very >> UN-popular >> very quickly. In you moderate setup, you already see the proof of >> corectness. >> > IMHO they CAN be backed up. As long as you have enough spare equipment. > At my previous work in bank where we were paranoid > about backup and downtime I think I have found a scaleable way > of doing so. We used it on a relatively small database (~15G) but > I can't see why it can not be scaled. First, forget about exports. > Copy the database files and archived logs. Additionally to the > production instance have two more instances. One gets archived logs > copied and rolled forward immediately. Another one gets archived > logs copied immediately, but rolled forward only after they aged. > Copy this third instance to tapes time to time. Copy archived > logs to tape as fast as they get produced. Yes. This scheme works, but you ar not backing up the database, nor is it scalable. Operating on a databse (from a backup point of view) makes arbitrary changes to the files. If you back them up, you will have an inconsistent view of the data. Problem number 2: If your system's storage I/O is utilized at higher that 50%, you cannot dump the files at all. > If the production instance crashes, use the second one. If someone > removed a table and that was more recently than the age of third > instance, start this instance and get this table from it. If this > removal was noticed too late, there will be big PITA with restoring > from tapes. What you describe here is application-level mirroring. It works after a fasion, but in case the two databases go out of sync, you have no way of proving which side is correct. Also, it is not a deterministic system; You cannot really commit the master until the slave committed. This gets nasty in a hurry. One database with one mirror may work. Twenty of them? > Do offline (better but with downtime) or online backup if you do reset > logs. This can be done fast if the I/O subsystem is has enough > throughput to copy all the disks of database to backup disks in > parallel, and if the disks can be remapped between machines > easily. For 4G disks this will be not more than 1 hour. There are databases which cannot go offline. Banks have the unique position where they hold the customer's money behind a locked door :-) An ISPs Radius database cannot shut down. A telephone company authentication server cannot shutdown, A web server should not shut down. A mail server can shutdown. A DNS server cannot shutdown. You may disagree with some of these classifications, but some of them cannot be shutdown, and actually cannot get out of sync either. ... > Nope. Databases must have dedicated filesystems. And as long > there are no files created or removed in these filesystems > or blocks added or removed to/from any files in them > (in other words, no change of metadata, what is normal for databases) > there is no chance that you will lose your database. > I know that not everyone follows this rule (looks like everyone > in AT&T does not do it) but this is their personal problem and > not the problem of Unix. I was hoping you will say that :-) You are talking theory. I am talking practice. I have demonstrated cases, (many times) where you boot a system, mount everything, crash it and upon re-boot, the filesystem is severely corrupt. Besides, a living database will change things on disk. There is no Unix semantics to pre-alloacte blocks to a file in Unix. Some of you may remember the old Oracle ccf utility. It did exactly that. Therfore, you may add a block to file A, which shares superblock sector with file B, have the system crash three days later, and then fsck will decide that file A belongs in lost+found, or, less commonly, rearrange it a bit. If you never saw it, you simply did not look long enough. I totally agree that most of it is a filesystem problem, not a Unix problem. I am working on such filesystem right now. The problem I have is that the Unix semantics for creat(2), open(2), etc. are wrong for such a filesystem. We can only estimate the degree of noise generated and guess at the outcome, if I suggested that these system calls need a new definition, or that new ones are needed. I'll save that for another day :-) Please do not misunderstand me; I like Unix, I love FreeBSD, but perfect for all occasions neither one is. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 11:43:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08269 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:43:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA08246 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:42:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 9281 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 19:49:35 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:49:35 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com, karl@mcs.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: ... > Databases are not regular filesystems. They have little number of > big files. Wrong. First, databases can have many small tables (let's stick with RDBMS for simplicity). What you refer to is what you can see from the utside. Inside these few big files, is a complex organization that takes closely related blocks of data and names them. This is what a filesystem is. So, inside the big files, which reside in a Unix filesystem, there is another filesystem. It is called a ``storage manager'' or something like that, but it is a filesystem. Second, A Unix filesystem is nothing more than a heirarchial database, with a single key index, variable length records, with one record per table. Then, at the application level, you assign meanings to the contents of that record by breaking it into sub records. For example, most Unix utilities will read this one record sequentially, and everytine they see a '\n', they will declare it an end-of-record. ... > Save it to tape as an image of logical disk. Restore it in the same > way. With things like OnlineJFS you can even do save it online. I have this new, imaginary Super-DAT tape that does 1 gigabyte/Sec. Itis attached to a Super-Duper-Ultra-SCSI thatt= has 1GB/Sec throughtput, and a small, 100GB database. The application is sinmple, for every telephone call the switch wants to make, we need to find the customer's telephone number, his long-distance company code, is his account valid, etc. then we add a CDR (Call Detail Record) that said that Simon called George on such-and-such date and talked for so many minutes. This is a highly, overly simplified application. Now, these database inquiries come at the rate of only 200/Sec. For simplicity sake, each CDR is exactly one half of a sector on the disk (forget databases. We are in the raw here :-). The database never shuts down, as you hate it when there is no dialtone when you pick up the phone. Now go and backup this database: a. You cannot shut it down, because the PUC said so and you hate prisons. b. By the time you back it up (100 seconds, there have been 20,000 modifications to the database. c. If you do a hot backup of the files, you will have approximately 10,000 changes that are not in your backup. d. If this was on a Unix filesystem, your files are now corrupt. Totall. you tell me why. This is a simplistic examples. Life is nastier than that. Can it be solved? Of course. With Unix? Yes, what do you think a 5ESS switch runs? With FreeBSD? Yes. As is today? No.... ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 11:45:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08933 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:45:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08915 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:45:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05707; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:44:46 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id NAA09939; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:44:15 -0600 Message-ID: <19980304134414.19644@right.PCS> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:44:14 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Wilko Bulte Cc: Alfred Perlstein , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Urgent please read... References: <000201bd477f$8fa02de0$0600a8c0@win95.local.sunyit.edu> <199803041848.TAA01426@yedi.iaf.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <199803041848.TAA01426@yedi.iaf.nl>; from Wilko Bulte on Mar 03, 1998 at 07:48:38PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mar 03, 1998 at 07:48:38PM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > > Well for 19cents a day, you can help one of our starving coders, imagine > > that, just 19cents a day, barely the price of a hot cappichino with almond > > flavoring, and that little sprinkle of cinnamon... (we all like cinnamon > > right?) > > Argh. All those things Americans throw in their coffee... We tend to think > most additions should 've been listed in the Geneva Convention on Chemical > Warfare. Hey, not all Americans. I like my coffee black. B L A C K. No sugar, no cream, no cinnamon, and definitely no flavored coffee. Speaking of which, when I was Amsterdam a few years ago, I ordered coffee with dinner in one of the restaurants. The waiter looked at me like I was an alien - "You mean _after_ dinner." "No, I mean _with_ dinner." They brought me this little cup of espresso to go with my steak (which was perfectly fine with me, BTW), but still looked at me as if I was a weirdo. Heh. I guess I just perpetuated the "weird American" stereotype. -- Jonathan (who still insists on getting Peet's coffee via mailorder) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 12:11:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13333 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA13318 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:11:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 9708 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 20:18:31 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803041805.TAA01136@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:18:31 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, karl@mcs.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... >> The difficulty is in having FreeBSD capable of producing this traffic on >> small blocks (dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/something bs=64k is NOT typical >> application). > > Build a datawarehouse and do full-table reads etc. For dataprocessing etc > you will never come near. Sure. These you make with 256KB stripes or larger, and turn read-ahead on. BTW, these applications should enjoy Super-Ultra-Wide-ExtraWide SCSI. > We've seen host adapters becoming saturated before the RAIDbox. This is > of course using an artificial benchmark that produces 100% cache hits on > the RAIDbox' cache. Yup. I think you will enjoy the new generation DPT controllers. Even as a passthrough to your RAID box. >> > I could run two host channels on this thing across two RAID sets into >> > two >> > Adaptec adapters. That might be a big win. > > That could be possible, highly depends on the adapter & driver. But for > single stream a well written driver & good card will probably not be the > bottleneck. The bottleneck is not in the driver, but most likely in the SCSI sequencer. I suspect something in the kernel is also holding things down. A clue can be had in the drop in I/O rate when you switch from UP to SMP. I dropped the ball on tracking these down but will pick it up soon. SMP is twice as slow as UP in these tests. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 12:19:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14979 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:19:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.netcetera.dk (root@sleipner.netcetera.dk [194.192.207.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14933 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:19:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leifn@image.dk) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.netcetera.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id VAA25010 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:14:47 +0100 Received: by swimsuit.swimsuit.roskildebc.dk (0.99.970109) id AA04048; 04 Mar 98 21:16:21 +0100 From: leifn@image.dk (Leif Neland) Date: 04 Mar 98 10:12:48 +0100 Subject: Re: URGENT HELP NEEDED Message-ID: <4c0_9803042116@swimsuit.swimsuit.roskildebc.dk> References: <199803040710.XAA03742@monk.via.net> Organization: Fidonet: Swimsuit Safari. Go for it. To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04 Mar 98 08:10:47 Joe McGuckin (2:234/49.99) wrote to All regarding Re: URGENT HELP NEEDED in area "freebsd-hacker" JM> Also, is is possible to change permissions on "/"? I see that JM> "/" contains a ".", so probably. That would break all kinds of JM> non-root things. JM> JM> Tom JM> JM> ----- End Included Message ----- JM> JM> JM> Holy cow Batman!!! That's it. Somehow, '/' was changed to 700. JM> JM> I would have never thought of that. On my previous SVR3-system the spooler was also used as a job-queue; a "printer" got a comma-delimited file, and produced a file in word-format for mailmerge in another directory. I once wanted to check every printer to see if they worked, so I made a small script which did echo $printer|lp -d$printer This "printer" did a chmod on /$inputfile. As there wasn't any input file when lp got its input from stdin, it chmod / instead, so as in your case, only root could log in. 4 hours of downtime, and a bill from support, because I did the damage. I think I succeded to brush it off on the company who made the spooler... Leif Neland leifn@image.dk --- |Fidonet: Leif Neland 2:234/49 |Internet: leifn@image.dk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 12:19:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15077 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:19:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA14966 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:19:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199803042014.PAA00502@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:19:15 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Simon Shapiro cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > This is a simplistic examples. Life is nastier than that. Can it be > solved? Of course. With Unix? Yes, what do you think a 5ESS switch runs? > With FreeBSD? Yes. As is today? No.... Plan9? -- Jamie Bowden Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 12:20:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15520 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:20:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.netcetera.dk (root@sleipner.netcetera.dk [194.192.207.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14912 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:18:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leifn@image.dk) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.netcetera.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id VAA25009 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:14:46 +0100 Received: by swimsuit.swimsuit.roskildebc.dk (0.99.970109) id AA04047; 04 Mar 98 21:16:20 +0100 From: leifn@image.dk (Leif Neland) Date: 04 Mar 98 09:02:00 +0100 Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Message-ID: <4bf_9803042116@swimsuit.swimsuit.roskildebc.dk> References: Organization: Fidonet: Swimsuit Safari. Go for it. To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04 Mar 98 02:09:53 Simon Shapiro (2:234/49.99) wrote to All regarding Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... in area "freebsd-hacker" SS> I wrote a white paper at Oracle some years ago, claiming that SS> databases over a certain size simply cannot be backed up. I SS> became very UN-popular very quickly. In you moderate setup, you SS> already see the proof of corectness. A company I know has the production database in one location, and a backup database in another. The backup-database operates in "incremental restore" mode (for lack of a better word), and receives the redo-logs from the production database over a dedicated network link. So the backup-database is only a few minutes behind at most. Leif Neland leifn@image.dk --- |Fidonet: Leif Neland 2:234/49 |Internet: leifn@image.dk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 12:22:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16098 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:22:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA15955 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:22:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA20875 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:24:02 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA01281; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:29:38 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803041829.TAA01281@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 3, 98 04:23:24 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:29:38 +0100 (MET) Cc: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 03-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > > ... > > > Hear hear. RAID parity is also done in hardware these days. Mostly for > > speed reasons. A second reason to go for a standalone RAIDbox is of > > course > > the clustering/multi-host thingy. Backplane RAID is IMHO more for > > low(er)-end solutions. > > Where does that leave kernel RAID? I like controller level RAID because: > > a. Much more flexible in packaging; I can use of-the shelf disks in > off-the-shelf cases if I choose to). Assuming *good* drives, with *good* firmware. This is as you know not as obvious as it sounds ;-) > b. In the case of a DPT, you get better performance and better > reliability, as I have three busses to spread the I/O across, and three > busses to take fatal failures on. Yep. Apart from that customer that had a 3 channel Mylex but used only one to attach drives to. Wanted to save on the hot-plug case for the drives. Well, never mind... You can guess what has happened. 3 channel is the bare minimum IMO. > > This is probably true. You also want to realise that the early production > > units of a given drive model tend to have substantially lower MTBFs. It > > seems when manufacturing plants get the 'feel' for producing a specific > > model MTBF gets better. > > I think the focus has to change: > > * We used to do RAID to protect from hardware failure disrupting service. > In the face of O/S and firmware volatility and buginess, this is absurd; ? I don't quite follow you I think. We *still* do RAID to avoid service disruption. > I think the focus changed from operational feature to insurance policy. Like going bankrupt or collide in midair in case of an aircraft tracking system. > Risk management is something not too many of us is any good at (count the > number of times you/I/we delivered a project on time. > > What does it all mean? I dunno. I leave it to the scientists to ponder. Hm. _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 12:28:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18171 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA18012 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:28:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 10025 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 20:34:56 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803041829.TAA01281@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:34:56 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... >> Where does that leave kernel RAID? I like controller level RAID >> because: >> >> a. Much more flexible in packaging; I can use of-the shelf disks in >> off-the-shelf cases if I choose to). > > Assuming *good* drives, with *good* firmware. This is as you know not as > obvious as it sounds ;-) Of course not. But moving the logic into the kernel will not solve it. I have always had good success with dedicated controllers. The CMD box, a DPT controller typically work very well. The only disapointment (at the time) was Mylex. But that probably changed since. >> b. In the case of a DPT, you get better performance and better >> reliability, as I have three busses to spread the I/O across, and >> three >> busses to take fatal failures on. > > Yep. Apart from that customer that had a 3 channel Mylex but used only > one > to attach drives to. Wanted to save on the hot-plug case for the drives. > Well, never mind... You can guess what has happened. 3 channel is the > bare minimum IMO. The numbers are simple, and can be easily derived from the SCSI specs (Justin can correct me where I am off base here), but a SCSI bus is good for 400-600 TPS, a drive is good for about that manym and about 4-6MB/Sec, the BUS is not good for much more. If you play with latencies, you arrive at 4-6 drives per bus. PCI-memory is good for 120MB/Sec on a sunny day, on a P6-200 FreeBSD (UP) is good for about 2,000 interrupts/Sec. The eventual throughput is derived from these numbers. ... > ? I don't quite follow you I think. We *still* do RAID to avoid service > disruption. Yes. But service will be disrupted from O/S and application crashes many times more. Whe disk packs were manually loaded, etc. a RAID actually contributed significantly to uptime. Today we do it to reduce the damage WHEN there is a failure, not as much to prevent the failure. This is where my work in HA comes in. It provides a ``CPU RAID'' at the service level. A Traditional FT does it at the instruction level. FreeBSD is not a good candidate for that. I also think that instruction level redundency is excessive for most applications FreeBSD is fit for. But having the service continually available can be a boon to its popularity in certain circles. I think we need to look in this direction as NT is starting to offer some such functionality, and we compete with NT. Let Linux compete with Win9{5,8}. there is overlap between NT and W95. There is (even more) overlap between Linux and FreeBSD, but the ``market'' differentiation is there nonetheless. >> I think the focus changed from operational feature to insurance policy. > Like going bankrupt or collide in midair in case of an aircraft tracking > system. Yes. These two examples are very good. They are all about recovery time. Computers fail. A true FT will detect and correct it at the instruction level (almost or exactly). This is crucial for the control surfaces in a fly-by-wire airplane. A financial transaction can tolerate a second, or seconds lapse in service during an error detection/correction, as long as the logical database is still coherent. My HA model guarantees the second and does absolutely nothing for the first. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 12:58:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24978 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:58:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24939 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:58:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 10343 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 20:58:32 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803041843.TAA01389@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:58:32 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... > Anxiously awaiting. I just missed an opportunity today to obtain a > Mylex DAC960 3 channel RAIDcard. Bah. Last I touched these, they were where DPT was 5 years prior, only buggier. I was at Intel at the time, working on a ``big'' benchmark and could get zilch support. I far a lot better calling, anonymously into DPT hotline, saying ``I have this 1991 vintage card a friend gave me, and it does...'' Part of a product is its producer and support. Maybe Mylex is much better at it today. ... > A couple of years ago while working at Philips Info Systems we had a > SysV2 derivative that could do powerfail/restart (as we called it). > It used some battery backed up RAM, and it was not a PC (M68K cpu). > Having never worked on that kernel I don't know how they did it. > But it worked pretty well. The details fail me and we may be talking about two different things: A device driver monitors the power-fail line (typically, on VME it is an NMI). The driver's inerrupt service routine pushes the stack into memory, sets a bit and halts. When you boot, you FIRST look at that bit. If it is ON, you do NOT run memory test :-), you simply pop the stack and CONT (or whatever). That driver leaked into the SVR4 source tree. I used it in another project on a 486 port, but we did not use a BIOS *Yup, we built a PC that could not boot DOS, only Unix. >> Memory SNAP: If you write it into a DPT controller, and the controller >> has >> enough cache to hold it, it is pretty fast. I can sustain about 2us per >> transaction overhead and about 120MB/Sec. This gives us about a second >> or >> two. The new DPT's can retain the cache until power returns. >> Even a small UPS (with poer alarms will last long enough. > > But how do you checkpoint things? So, where did the processor leave > off? The DPT gets transactions form the host. It processes them in an autonomous manner. If the entire transaction is OK, an ACK is sent to the host. If not, not. If Power-Fail is detected, the DPT simply halts until it sees a reset from the host. Once the reset arrives, it checks the disks. If they are all there, it can choose to flush the caches. One the host, once you detect a power-fail, you write all that you want to the DPT. The DPT takes the WRITE requests and ACKs (it acts as a write-back cache, normal modus operandum). The only fly in this cup is; Whatt if there is more main memory than cache on the DPT (which is normally the case)? What we do here, is a callback to an emergency shutdown routine that calls sync() in the kernel, and then calls boot(). It assumes the UPS can sustain the system this long, but that is very doable. 1GB worth of buffers will take (at 6 MB/sec - slow RAID-5) just over two minutes to flush. Most systems are much faster than that. So, the answer is; There is exactly one checkpoint, and it is a one-shot. Once we detect power failure, we assume we have reserve power to flush everything and shutdown. This does not protect you from disk bay power failures, but these are almost aloways on N+1 power systems and hooked up to separate UPSs. To have the kernel actually checkpoint itself, with any better resolution, or intelligence will have to change too many things. I am trying to make the system monitoring drivers implement a general purpose, hardware independent manner. How successful that will be I do not know yet. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 13:00:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA25620 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:00:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA25469 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:59:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 10549 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 21:06:43 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803041914.UAA01584@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:06:43 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, grog@lemis.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: .... > And best of all: no users.. We all know that systems tend to stay up much > longer when left alone (read: dedicated to say WWW serving or something > like that). sure. The number of variants is much smaller then, the number of execution paths through the code is smaller. It is almost as if software behaves like mechanics (like an engine running at constant RPM lasts much longer than one stat stops-n-goes, etc.). Some computer scientist needs to pick up on this phenomenon (really). >> No, I use FreeBSD for the last 18 months. Seagate claims, in writing >> 1,000,000 hours mean time between failures on their drives. Can FreeBSD > > Read the fine print on MTBF: it applies to large enough populations. You > as Joe Average user will never have a statistically sound sample to claim > anything. So they can essentially write down what they like. Oh, I am fully aware of it. But I still claim (with confidence), that the typical modern hard disk has a much better (many times better) uptime than any Unix (or NT) does, I suspect they even have better uptime than most motherboards and most memory SIMMs (although this makes no sense at all). Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 13:08:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27325 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:08:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA27294 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:07:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 10674 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 21:14:46 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803041919.UAA01618@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:14:46 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, karl@mcs.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... > Interestingly enough these benchmarks are mostly run with direct attached > disks, no RAID controller in sight. Assuming enough CPU horsepower > (a AlphaServer 8400 will do just fine with 8x 625Mc CPU will do...) you > do striping on the machine. Lots faster than any RAIDbox. A lot of that has to do with politics. Some years ago i worked (briefly!) for a certiain CPU manufacturer who ran RDBMS menchmarks mainly on certain O/S and certain RDBMS engine (both made by the same vendor, dare I say). One brand of RAID controllers was not used because it had a politically incorrect CPU on board. the other brand of RAID controllers was pushed hard as it had a politiclly correct CPU, but was so buggy, we could never finish formatting the disks. We ended up with another brand of non-RAID controllers which was politically acceptable (they did not use the proper CPU or any CPU at all, but the politically wrong O/S was not getting the inside track to this controller). Yes, a very hot CPU arrangement, with many channels, on a fast I/O bus will deliver carefully configured benchmark very well. It is not necessarily an optimal setup for most of us (utilizing 5% of a disk is not what we normally do either. There ar ebenchmarks, and there is real life. > Who cares about data integrity, it is TPC you want for the glossies. Actually some benchmarks are supposed to consider that. But I could tell you some funny stories there too. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 13:48:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03637 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:48:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isbalham.ist.co.uk (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03631 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:48:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham.ist.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.4) with UUCP id VAA16985 for freebsd.org!hackers; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:46:57 GMT Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:36:31 GMT X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:37:12 +0000 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: Bob Bishop Subject: ed0: NIC memory corrupt Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Since upgrading this box to 2.2.5, I'm getting occasional ed0: NIC memory corrupt - invalid packet length It's an 8216: ed0 at 0x280-0x29f irq 5 maddr 0xd8000 msize 16384 on isa ed0: address 00:00:c0:69:14:86, type SMC8216/SMC8216C (16 bit) Is this worth a bug report? -- Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 14:36:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07947 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:36:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07809 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:34:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22559; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:32:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803042232.OAA22559@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: freebsd@isvara.net cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Ethernet card driver In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:25:01 GMT." <34FD481D.B3CCB346@challenge.isvara.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:32:29 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hi, > I'm about to write an ethernet card driver (3Com 3C905), utilizing > all the features of the card (Bus master DMA transfers, etc). Sounds good. > What calls are required to interface to the kernel (I prefer not looking > at other code, and writing from scratch) ? > > The functions {xxinit, xxattach, ...}have quite obvious names for what > they should do, but I am unsure *exactly* what should be done were. The best thing for you to do _is_ to look at other code, for real-world, known-functional examples. The fxp driver is an excellent place to start from your point of view - it's another PCI busmaster ethernet card, with known good performance and excellent reliability. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 14:38:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08188 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:38:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA08116 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:37:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 12223 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 22:44:08 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803042014.PAA00502@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:44:08 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Jamie Bowden Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > >> This is a simplistic examples. Life is nastier than that. Can it be >> solved? Of course. With Unix? Yes, what do you think a 5ESS switch >> runs? >> With FreeBSD? Yes. As is today? No.... > > Plan9? I do not really know, but do not think so. Plan9 is newer than 5ESS. Besides, my definition of Plan9: What Unix should have been" ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 14:38:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08321 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:38:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08269 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:38:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22577; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:34:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803042234.OAA22577@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Ustimenko Semen cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are mbufs aligned or bounded on something? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 22:33:06 +0600." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:34:51 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > In other words: should i care about mbuf cluster is bounded on PAGE_SIZE > in physical memory. Unless it explicitly matters to your hardware, you should assume that mbuf clusters are aligned to suit the architecture you're running on. If it *does* matter to your hardware, I would be inclined to suggest that you code to handle all situations, and optimise for the case where the alignment best suits you. This will greatly improve the portability of your code. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 14:49:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10996 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:49:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from att.com (cagw2.att.com [192.128.52.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA10972 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:49:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sbabkin@dcn.att.com) From: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Received: by cagw2.att.com; Wed Mar 4 17:00 EST 1998 Received: from dcn71.dcn.att.com (dcn71.dcn.att.com [135.44.192.112]) by caig2.att.att.com (AT&T/GW-1.0) with ESMTP id RAA01608 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:04:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by dcn71.dcn.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:06:51 -0500 Message-ID: To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com, karl@mcs.net Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:06:48 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > ---------- > From: Simon Shapiro[SMTP:shimon@simon-shapiro.org] > > >> I wrote a white paper at Oracle some years ago, claiming that > >> databases > >> over a certain size simply cannot be backed up. I became very > >> UN-popular > >> very quickly. In you moderate setup, you already see the proof of > >> corectness. > >> > > IMHO they CAN be backed up. As long as you have enough spare > equipment. > > At my previous work in bank where we were paranoid > > about backup and downtime I think I have found a scaleable way > > of doing so. We used it on a relatively small database (~15G) but > > I can't see why it can not be scaled. First, forget about exports. > > Copy the database files and archived logs. Additionally to the > > production instance have two more instances. One gets archived logs > > copied and rolled forward immediately. Another one gets archived > > logs copied immediately, but rolled forward only after they aged. > > Copy this third instance to tapes time to time. Copy archived > > logs to tape as fast as they get produced. > > Yes. This scheme works, but you ar not backing up the database, nor > is it > scalable. Operating on a databse (from a backup point of view) makes > arbitrary changes to the files. If you back them up, you will have an > inconsistent view of the data. > But it makes archived logs (I mean Oracle database) that can be used to roll forward an outdated copy. > Problem number 2: If your system's storage I/O is utilized at higher > that > 50%, you cannot dump the files at all. > The third copy is outdated by definition. So if you stop it rolling forward for half a day or a whole day and make full tape backup from it then it will make no problem at all. Yes, it will be outdated, but because all the archived logs are also written to tape after they are created, you can later restore them together with this full backup and apply them after that. > > If the production instance crashes, use the second one. If someone > > removed a table and that was more recently than the age of third > > instance, start this instance and get this table from it. If this > > removal was noticed too late, there will be big PITA with restoring > > from tapes. > > What you describe here is application-level mirroring. It works after > a > Yes, with the difference that the second copy may be located on machine in another building connected by something like FDDI, so you are protected against things like fire in computer room. And it is not quite mirror, they are out of sync by something like 10 minutes all the time. Of course, the primary system should have all the hardware mirroring and like things (or may not, in my exact case it was not done by political reasons. Personally I would prefer having mirroring, even instead of this scheme, but there were political reasons), so you can lose these 10 minutes of operational data only if you have the primary system significantly destroyed. > fasion, but in case the two databases go out of sync, you have no way > of > proving which side is correct. Also, it is not a deterministic > system; > They can not go far out of sync if everything is working. One of them is master, it generates the database archive logs during the operation and these logs get applied to the secondary database. They are all the time out of sync by the time necessary to generate, transfer and apply these logs but it can't become worse. > You cannot really commit the master until the slave committed. This > gets > nasty in a hurry. One database with one mirror may work. Twenty of > them? > It does not try to sync. It is just an auxiliary backup system. If your primary system goes completely down, you can start the secondary system in 10 minutes as primary. Yes, you will lose something like last 0...10 minutes of operation. But you will still be able to provide service. > > Do offline (better but with downtime) or online backup if you do > reset > > logs. This can be done fast if the I/O subsystem is has enough > > throughput to copy all the disks of database to backup disks in > > parallel, and if the disks can be remapped between machines > > easily. For 4G disks this will be not more than 1 hour. > > There are databases which cannot go offline. Banks have the unique > position where they hold the customer's money behind a locked door :-) > An ISPs Radius database cannot shut down. A telephone company > authentication server cannot shutdown, A web server should not shut > down. > A mail server can shutdown. A DNS server cannot shutdown. > You may disagree with some of these classifications, but some of them > cannot be shutdown, and actually cannot get out of sync either. > Agreed. For these cases Oracle has opportunity named online backup. You tell the RDBMS that you are going to do backup, after that copy the database files (the RDBMS is still running, only performance is degraded due to competition for disks). Later you can apply the archived logs to this image and get working database. > > Nope. Databases must have dedicated filesystems. And as long > > there are no files created or removed in these filesystems > > or blocks added or removed to/from any files in them > > (in other words, no change of metadata, what is normal for > databases) > > there is no chance that you will lose your database. > > I know that not everyone follows this rule (looks like everyone > > in AT&T does not do it) but this is their personal problem and > > not the problem of Unix. > > I was hoping you will say that :-) > You are talking theory. I am talking practice. I have demonstrated > cases, > (many times) where you boot a system, mount everything, crash it and > upon > re-boot, the filesystem is severely corrupt. > Yes, I had it too. But don't forget that the booting changes files, at least logs, utmp/wtmp, pipes, etc. If you just mount some filesystem and don't touch it after this, it can not get corrupted. > Besides, a living database will change things on disk. There is no > Unix > semantics to pre-alloacte blocks to a file in Unix. Some of you may > remember the old Oracle ccf utility. It did exactly that. Therfore, > you > may add a block to file A, which shares superblock sector with file B, > have > the system crash three days later, and then fsck will decide that file > A > belongs in lost+found, or, less commonly, rearrange it a bit. If you > never > saw it, you simply did not look long enough. > Don't know about ccf, never saw it. But if I create the database, all the blocks are allocated during the creation and later the file sizes never change (and no, they don't have gaps inside). And as far as I know if I write to some block in file that is already allocated, the data will go to this block and it will never be reallocated by the filesystem. So you do not have any blocks allocated or deallocated during normal operation and the filesystem can not get corrupted. > Please do not misunderstand me; I like Unix, I love FreeBSD, but > perfect > for all occasions neither one is. > I do not :-) After all, you can use logical volumes: they are as much convenient as files (if you do have LVM) but have less overhead. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 14:49:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11010 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:49:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from att.com (cagw2.att.com [192.128.52.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA10986 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:49:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sbabkin@dcn.att.com) From: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Received: by cagw2.att.com; Wed Mar 4 17:16 EST 1998 Received: from dcn71.dcn.att.com (dcn71.dcn.att.com [135.44.192.112]) by caig2.att.att.com (AT&T/GW-1.0) with ESMTP id RAA08596 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:19:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by dcn71.dcn.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:22:16 -0500 Message-ID: To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com, karl@mcs.net Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:22:15 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > ---------- > From: Simon Shapiro[SMTP:shimon@simon-shapiro.org] > > > Databases are not regular filesystems. They have little number of > > big files. > > Wrong. > > First, databases can have many small tables (let's stick with RDBMS > for simplicity). What you refer to is what you can see from the > utside. > Inside these few big files, is a complex organization that takes > closely > Yes, but the original mail was talking that if you restore your backup from tape (and if you make your backup also) it will take long time to create big number of filesystem files. If you do export/import on a database, yes, you will have the same problem. But if you backup a database as a set of OS files, you will not see its internal structure. > > Save it to tape as an image of logical disk. Restore it in the same > > way. With things like OnlineJFS you can even do save it online. > ... > a. You cannot shut it down, because the PUC said so and you hate > prisons. > b. By the time you back it up (100 seconds, there have been 20,000 > modifications to the database. > c. If you do a hot backup of the files, you will have approximately > 10,000 > changes that are not in your backup. > d. If this was on a Unix filesystem, your files are now corrupt. > Totall. > you tell me why. > No. If you use Online JFS, what you do: make your database residing in one filesystem. This is a must. Then take another 30G volume (the exact size depends on the intensity of changes, this one estimates that no more than ~1/3 of blocks in your original filesystem will be changed during backup) and mount it as a "freeze" to your original filesystem. When some operation is done on your original filesystem, the contents at the time of "freezing" will be saved to the second volume. So when your backup reads the "freezed" filesystem, it will take a proper block from either the original or second volume. Yet better idea: don't store your database right in the filesystem, store it in Oracle and you will get possibility of online backups for free. > This is a simplistic examples. Life is nastier than that. Can it be > solved? Of course. With Unix? Yes, what do you think a 5ESS switch > runs? > With FreeBSD? Yes. As is today? No.... > Unless someone will make Oracle working on it :-) -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 14:53:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12166 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:53:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12053 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:53:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA31995 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:52:51 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA04141; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:54:04 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803042154.WAA04141@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 4, 98 12:58:32 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:54:04 +0100 (MET) Cc: julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 04-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > > ... > > > Anxiously awaiting. I just missed an opportunity today to obtain a > > Mylex DAC960 3 channel RAIDcard. Bah. > > Last I touched these, they were where DPT was 5 years prior, only buggier. > I was at Intel at the time, working on a ``big'' benchmark and could get > zilch support. I far a lot better calling, anonymously into DPT hotline, > saying ``I have this 1991 vintage card a friend gave me, and it does...'' > > Part of a product is its producer and support. Maybe Mylex is much better > at it today. I never talked to Mylex directly. And I'd only get one if I get it (nearly) free, like a $10-15 pricepoint. No real use for it here, but maybe fun to play with. Like the FDDI network here ;-) > >> enough cache to hold it, it is pretty fast. I can sustain about 2us per > >> transaction overhead and about 120MB/Sec. This gives us about a second > >> or > >> two. The new DPT's can retain the cache until power returns. > >> Even a small UPS (with poer alarms will last long enough. > > > > But how do you checkpoint things? So, where did the processor leave > > off? > > The DPT gets transactions form the host. It processes them in an > autonomous manner. If the entire transaction is OK, an ACK is sent to the > host. If not, not. If Power-Fail is detected, the DPT simply halts until > it sees a reset from the host. Once the reset arrives, it checks the > disks. If they are all there, it can choose to flush the caches. > > One the host, once you detect a power-fail, you write all that you want to > the DPT. The DPT takes the WRITE requests and ACKs (it acts as a > write-back cache, normal modus operandum). The only fly in this cup is; > Whatt if there is more main memory than cache on the DPT (which is normally > the case)? What we do here, is a callback to an emergency shutdown routine > that calls sync() in the kernel, and then calls boot(). It assumes the UPS > can sustain the system this long, but that is very doable. 1GB worth of > buffers will take (at 6 MB/sec - slow RAID-5) just over two minutes to > flush. Most systems are much faster than that. Agreed. Sounds ok. > So, the answer is; There is exactly one checkpoint, and it is a one-shot. > Once we detect power failure, we assume we have reserve power to flush > everything and shutdown. > > This does not protect you from disk bay power failures, but these are > almost aloways on N+1 power systems and hooked up to separate UPSs. An extra power supply is money well spent. We ship all our standalone arrays at least with N+1, optional 2N power. 2N gives you 2 seperate power entry points to the power grid. Now we only need to educate people to use two different power branches (phases? what's the right English term?) > To have the kernel actually checkpoint itself, with any better resolution, > or intelligence will have to change too many things. I am trying to make OK, that was my original question. Had a bad feeling about exactly what you mention here. _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 14:53:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12178 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:53:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12072 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:53:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA32002 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:52:52 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id XAA04270; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:11:26 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803042211.XAA04270@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 4, 98 12:18:31 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:11:26 +0100 (MET) Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, karl@mcs.net X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 04-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > > ... > > >> The difficulty is in having FreeBSD capable of producing this traffic on > >> small blocks (dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/something bs=64k is NOT typical > >> application). > > > > Build a datawarehouse and do full-table reads etc. For dataprocessing etc > > you will never come near. > > Sure. These you make with 256KB stripes or larger, and turn read-ahead on. > BTW, these applications should enjoy Super-Ultra-Wide-ExtraWide SCSI. Or a FibreChannel array. Will be playing with that for the rest of the week. I'm pretty curious to see how that behaves. > > We've seen host adapters becoming saturated before the RAIDbox. This is > > of course using an artificial benchmark that produces 100% cache hits on > > the RAIDbox' cache. > > Yup. I think you will enjoy the new generation DPT controllers. Even as a > passthrough to your RAID box. I don't know if DPT will be part of our product offering. I play with what they throw at me ;-) The FC array is cute so I don't complain. > > That could be possible, highly depends on the adapter & driver. But for > > single stream a well written driver & good card will probably not be the > > bottleneck. > > The bottleneck is not in the driver, but most likely in the SCSI sequencer. > I suspect something in the kernel is also holding things down. A clue can > be had in the drop in I/O rate when you switch from UP to SMP. I dropped > the ball on tracking these down but will pick it up soon. SMP is twice as > slow as UP in these tests. Somebody/something locking resources? But that is definetely worth investigating for SMP users. Wilko (who has plenty of CPUs, but all in the own mainboard/box) _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 14:53:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12195 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:53:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12100 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:53:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA32018 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:52:54 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id XAA04235; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:07:08 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803042207.XAA04235@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 4, 98 12:34:56 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:07:08 +0100 (MET) Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 04-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > > ... > > >> Where does that leave kernel RAID? I like controller level RAID > >> because: > >> > >> a. Much more flexible in packaging; I can use of-the shelf disks in > >> off-the-shelf cases if I choose to). > > > > Assuming *good* drives, with *good* firmware. This is as you know not as > > obvious as it sounds ;-) > > Of course not. But moving the logic into the kernel will not solve it. I Believe me, I like RAID boxes, not kernel raid. > have always had good success with dedicated controllers. The CMD box, a > DPT controller typically work very well. The only disapointment (at the > time) was Mylex. But that probably changed since. > > >> b. In the case of a DPT, you get better performance and better > >> reliability, as I have three busses to spread the I/O across, and > >> three > >> busses to take fatal failures on. > > > > Yep. Apart from that customer that had a 3 channel Mylex but used only > > one > > to attach drives to. Wanted to save on the hot-plug case for the drives. > > Well, never mind... You can guess what has happened. 3 channel is the > > bare minimum IMO. > > The numbers are simple, and can be easily derived from the SCSI specs > (Justin can correct me where I am off base here), but a SCSI bus is good > for 400-600 TPS, a drive is good for about that manym and about 4-6MB/Sec, > the BUS is not good for much more. If you play with latencies, you arrive > at 4-6 drives per bus. PCI-memory is good for 120MB/Sec on a sunny day, on For good performance our rule of thumb is 4-5 disks/bus. Matches your's quite nicely. 3 buses minimum is more based on the rule that you don't want to have more than one disk out of each set on a channel. As Murphy has it it is always the bus with >1 disk that somehow gets killed. A RAID5 of 3 disks is pretty minimal (OK, it might be 36 Gb netto cap now) > ... > > > ? I don't quite follow you I think. We *still* do RAID to avoid service > > disruption. > > Yes. But service will be disrupted from O/S and application crashes many > times more. Whe disk packs were manually loaded, etc. a RAID actually > contributed significantly to uptime. Today we do it to reduce the damage > WHEN there is a failure, not as much to prevent the failure. Hm. Well it is a matter of terminology I suppose. In my view 'failure' also includes a service disruption. But that's a different angle. > This is where my work in HA comes in. It provides a ``CPU RAID'' at the > service level. A Traditional FT does it at the instruction level. FreeBSD > is not a good candidate for that. I also think that instruction level > redundency is excessive for most applications FreeBSD is fit for. But > having the service continually available can be a boon to its popularity in > certain circles. > > I think we need to look in this direction as NT is starting to offer some > such functionality, and we compete with NT. Let Linux compete with > Win9{5,8}. there is overlap between NT and W95. There is (even > more) overlap between Linux and FreeBSD, but the ``market'' differentiation > is there nonetheless. OK, I understand you intend to compete with NT/Wolfpack (OK, MS Cluster Server they call it now I think). What do you call it? 'ChuckPack' ? ;-) > >> I think the focus changed from operational feature to insurance policy. > > > Like going bankrupt or collide in midair in case of an aircraft tracking > > system. > > Yes. These two examples are very good. They are all about recovery time. > Computers fail. A true FT will detect and correct it at the instruction > level (almost or exactly). This is crucial for the control surfaces in a > fly-by-wire airplane. A financial transaction can tolerate a second, or > seconds lapse in service during an error detection/correction, as long as > the logical database is still coherent. My HA model guarantees the second > and does absolutely nothing for the first. You are aiming for second-failover times? How do you distinguish then between a somewhat slow machine and one that is really dead? Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 14:59:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13884 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:59:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13602 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:58:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA07943; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:56:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:56:57 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: Simon Shapiro cc: Jamie Bowden , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > On 04-Mar-98 Jamie Bowden wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > > >> This is a simplistic examples. Life is nastier than that. Can it be > >> solved? Of course. With Unix? Yes, what do you think a 5ESS switch > >> runs? > >> With FreeBSD? Yes. As is today? No.... > > > > Plan9? > > I do not really know, but do not think so. Plan9 is newer than 5ESS. > > Besides, my definition of Plan9: What Unix should have been" Would you mind expanding on that? I'm interested ... > > > ---------- > > > Sincerely Yours, > > Simon Shapiro > Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 15:09:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15277 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:09:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15270 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:09:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA16402; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:07:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA12483; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:07:52 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:07:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199803042307.QAA12483@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Wilko Bulte Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com Subject: MOVE THIS!!! (was Re: SCSI Bus redundancy...) In-Reply-To: <199803042207.XAA04235@yedi.iaf.nl> References: <199803042207.XAA04235@yedi.iaf.nl> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Can we *please* move this to -scsi? It has gone on a very long time, and while it may be helpful, it's no longer 'hackers' material. Thanks! Nate ps. I left it on -hackers so that others would see to move it! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 15:13:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16263 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:13:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16214 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:13:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23177; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:13:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd023144; Wed Mar 4 16:13:07 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA17919; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:12:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803042312.QAA17919@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Disk write caches To: remy@synx.com (Remy NONNENMACHER) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:12:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Remy NONNENMACHER" at Mar 4, 98 11:29:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I would be very interested to see what the benchmarks on a machine > > with soft updates would be with a disk with and without write > > cacheing. > > I tested cache benefits within disks. Write cache disabling lowered the > perfs from 2 to 10 time depending on operations. Did this include soft updates, however? IMO, soft updates is topologically equivalent to moving a write cache from the controller to the kernel. I am *specifically* interested in what an FS mounted with soft updates would do (as I don't personally have the hardware wherewithall to be able to answer the question for myself; my DEC drives don't seem to allow me to turn things off). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 15:17:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16862 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:17:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16844 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:17:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16337; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:17:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd016306; Wed Mar 4 16:17:30 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA18065; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:17:28 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803042317.QAA18065@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Interrupts during probe/attach? To: lile@stdio.com (Larry S. Lile) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:17:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Larry S. Lile" at Mar 4, 98 09:50:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Is it possible to receive an interrupt from an adapter during > probe/attach routines? I am working on a token ring driver and > in order to initialize the card you have to latch/release/enable > interrupts and wait... then the card will interrupt when it has > finished. The problem is I can't seem to process an interrupt > until all the other probe/attach routines finish. I have > tried changing the spl level around my DELAY() but no interrupt. > > So are interrupts masked until later? or is DELAY() not > interruptable? or am I doing something wrong? Look at the ethernet driver for the LANCE chipset, since it has the same probe requirements (you must poke it and it must say "ouch". Look specifically at one of the many lance drivers we have (any number larger than "1" is "many" in driver space). if_le.c and if_lnc.c in /sys/i386/isa, specifically. > I can just poll the interrupt status register on the card if > interrupts are masked during probe/attach but I just want to > know if i'm doing something stupid. Hmm. If you could do this with the LANCE as well, it would be worth masking things... I think what happense now is you tenatively register an interrupt handler before you poke it... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 15:21:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17694 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:21:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA17686 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:21:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 13177 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 23:28:04 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803042154.WAA04141@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:28:04 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... > free, like a $10-15 pricepoint. No real use for it here, but maybe fun > to play with. Like the FDDI network here ;-) I am using FDDI (CDDI) here on my development setup. The DEC cards supported by FreeBSD. Very boring setup; You plug them in and it works. Nice thing is it provides redundancy and does not need an expensive switch. I use the Intel 100B cards for 100mbit PtP. Just as boring but twice as fast. (boring here is the ultimate compliment a kernel subsystem can have; it works well without any problems). ... > An extra power supply is money well spent. We ship all our standalone > arrays at least with N+1, optional 2N power. 2N gives you 2 seperate > power entry points to the power grid. Now we only need to educate people > to use two different power branches (phases? what's the right English > term?) The old DPT 9W tower (made by DEC) had an interesting feature, where the power INPUT was switchable too. If the AC to one supply went dowm it will draw AC from the other. Yes, 2N P/S is trivial to do (2 diods/circuit if I remember right) and cheap. Technically, you want each supply fed from a different phase. In the US they are referredto as ``independant circuits''. I have seen people paying lots of money to get that, where they have 220V right in the same room (220BAC in the US is 2-phases, 180 degrees apart, unlike the European 3 phasees 120 degrees apart. Yest, you can get 3phase circuits in the US too). The hot wire in a 220VAC, in the us is 117VAC to ground, 220VAC hot-hot. >> To have the kernel actually checkpoint itself, with any better >> resolution, >> or intelligence will have to change too many things. I am trying to >> make > > OK, that was my original question. Had a bad feeling about exactly what > you mention here. What's bad? I would like to know if you think there is a mistake here. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 15:52:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24863 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:52:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA24724 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:52:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 14203 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1998 23:58:30 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:58:30 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com, karl@mcs.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: ... >> What you describe here is application-level mirroring. It works after > Yes, with the difference that the second copy may be located > on machine in another building connected by something like FDDI, > so you are protected against things like fire in computer room. > And it is not quite mirror, they are out of sync by something > like 10 minutes all the time. Of course, the primary system should have > all the hardware mirroring and like things (or may not, in my exact > case it was not done by political reasons. Personally I would > prefer having mirroring, even instead of this scheme, but there > were political reasons), so you can lose these > 10 minutes of operational data only if you have the primary system > significantly destroyed. I have a better solution, which was implemented here at my work (and I'll repeat if my employer ahd the guy that wote it do not contribute it); This is NOT my original idea, but so old I do not remember who did it first; You start with two identical databases. You modify the (postgres) libpq, or (Oracle) SQL*Net interface to intercept all data-modifying SQL statements (you do not care about SELECT and such). You cache those until you see a COMMIT. If you see a ROLLBACK, you discard all that cache. When you capture the SQL statements, you stamp each with a high precision time stamp (does not have to be accurate, but has to be precise). When you see a COMMIT, you ship the whole thing to a remote machine. The remote machine can simply log these, or apply them against a reference database. If you just logthem, you sort them by the timestamp before you apply them. The quality of the resultant database is surprisingly good. Especially for an OLTP system. the advantages are obvious. ... > They can not go far out of sync if everything is working. One of > them is master, it generates the database archive logs during the > operation and these logs get applied to the secondary database. > They are all the time out of sync by the time necessary to > generate, transfer and apply these logs but it can't become worse. This will only work if you can switch the database clients to the alternative system. Otherwise you will have long interruption of service. Something your employer does not routinely like. I normally classify these schemes as part of disaster recovery plan, not routine operation. In my terminology, backup is part of routine operation. Truely hot databases cannot be routinely backed up, nor restored without unacceptable disruption of service. Your scheme, which is good for disaster recovery, is not acceptable for a hot, non-stop operation, unless modified as indicated above. ... > It does not try to sync. It is just an auxiliary backup system. If > your primary system goes completely down, you can start > the secondary system in 10 minutes as primary. Yes, you will lose > something like last 0...10 minutes of operation. But you will > still be able to provide service. Last time AT&T lost service for 10 minutes it ended up on TV. Besides, if you promise 1 minute, demonstrate 10 minutes, in a real disaster it will be 4 hours. What is the revenue loss, per 5ESS switch for 10 minutes loss of service? What is the contractual obligation for downtime? One of the readers of this list (works for Sprint, I think) reminded me the 5 minutes/year or something on that scale. ... > Agreed. For these cases Oracle has opportunity named online backup. > You tell the RDBMS that you are going to do backup, after that > copy the database files (the RDBMS is still running, only performance > is degraded due to competition for disks). Later you can apply > the archived logs to this image and get working database. I know of that option. I also had to listen to a Telco customer who detailed, in public, how this feature takes 18 hours to bring the database back up after a software induced crash, using exactly this mechanism. It sounds good in a brochure. Not worth a damn for non-stop operations in real-life. Besides, Oracle does not support a FreeBSD port, costs a yearly salary per copy and does not provide source yet. ... > Yes, I had it too. But don't forget that the booting changes > files, at least logs, utmp/wtmp, pipes, etc. If you just > mount some filesystem and don't touch it after this, it > can not get corrupted. If you say so. Are you willing to bet your salary, carreer or life on that statement? In FreeBSD, I have lost /usr/src twice, and /usr/local three times in the last three or six months (Each of these is on a separate F/S, of course. None of them is modifyable by the boot process (other than the clean umount bit), but I lost them all the same. Once it was atttributed to a bug/glitch in the fdisk/disklabel/partitions/slices logic, the other times, I have no clue. I did not bitch about it as it is under current, which has no warranty, etc. I had similar losses under other O/Ss and versions. Finally, even if you were totally right (which I do not think you are), no technical executive will allow a critical database on a Unix filesystem. Databases get corrupted all the time, on and off Unix filesystems. But to allow mission critical databases on Unix filesystems is prophane to these people. Reality notwithstanding. ... > Don't know about ccf, never saw it. But if I create the database, > all the blocks are allocated during the creation and later the > file sizes never change (and no, they don't have gaps inside). > And as far as I know if I write to some block in file that is > already allocated, the data will go to this block and it will never > be reallocated by the filesystem. So you do not have any blocks > allocated or deallocated during normal operation and the filesystem > can not get corrupted. The reason you see these nice solid files, is that ccf (which used to be a stand-alone utility up to Oracle version 4.1.3, is now part of the program which creates the database. It still does the same exact thing; Goes and writes every byte in the Unix file. If you have a Unix filesystem with three-four files that were totally pre-written, and nothing else, and then go through the girations the Oracle OSD does to circumvent the caching and such of the filesystem, you are in effect on a raw device. the only difference is that you are executing 19,438 lines of ufs code, plus who knows how many lines of VFS, FFS, whatever, in addition to the code required to run to the device itself. how can that be faster, or more reliable than not running that code, I do not grasp. Remember, not executing logic is more reliable and faster than executing it. The contents of that logic is immaterial. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 16:03:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27664 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:03:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA27341 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:02:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 14382 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 00:09:06 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803042207.XAA04235@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:09:06 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: ... > For good performance our rule of thumb is 4-5 disks/bus. Matches your's > quite nicely. I hope others are reading this. I hear conflicting opinions, quite argumentatively, all the time. I hope I do not offend anyone, but these numbers were true about 20 years ago, and somehow, they stay constant, or get worse with time. This is partially why when the SASI spec turned into SCSI, the number of address lines went down from 8 to 3. The wieres are still there :-) > 3 buses minimum is more based on the rule that you don't want to have > more than > one disk out of each set on a channel. As Murphy has it it is always the > bus > with >1 disk that somehow gets killed. A RAID5 of 3 disks is pretty > minimal > (OK, it might be 36 Gb netto cap now) Yup. If you stick with RAID-1, you can get away with 2 busses. Now, connecting a RAID box like this to your computer with exactly ONE SCSI cable is .... ... > OK, I understand you intend to compete with NT/Wolfpack (OK, MS Cluster Server they call it now I think). Not really. I just need this functionality, belive many others do too, and want to assure NT does not get them because Unix does not have it, or has it on proprietary hardware for more money per system than I make in a year. > What do you call it? 'ChuckPack' ? ;-) It is traditional with my people not to name a child until he/she is born and proven viable and healthy :-) ... > You are aiming for second-failover times? How do you distinguish then > between a somewhat slow machine and one that is really dead? Watchdog timers, mainly. SCSI-SCSI communications, secondary, RS-232 modem control lines tricery. The WDTs are cross wired. Kernel facilities to attach callbacks to events are already there and running. This entire conversation belongs in databases. No? ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 16:08:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29146 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:08:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA28947 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:08:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 14547 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 00:14:32 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803042211.XAA04270@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:14:32 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, karl@mcs.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ... > Or a FibreChannel array. Will be playing with that for the rest of the > week. I'm pretty curious to see how that behaves. Ah, the first usable and functional disk channel to hit small computers. The demos I saw several years ago showed over 1,700 TPS to a single drive. And it is redundant, EMI/RFI clean, wonderful, and expensive. ... > I don't know if DPT will be part of our product offering. I play with > what they throw at me ;-) The FC array is cute so I don't complain. I do NOT work for DPT. I get generous help when I need it. But they have an FCAL HBA someplace. There was another company in Colorado (?) which had a controller. They promised me a card to write the FreeBSD driver, but I never hear from them anymore. ... >> the ball on tracking these down but will pick it up soon. SMP is twice >> as slow as UP in these tests. > > Somebody/something locking resources? But that is definetely worth > investigating for SMP users. Yup. I never invoked any interest in this phenomenon, other than ``if you find why, give me the patch''. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 16:15:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01185 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:15:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00731 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:13:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 14661 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 00:20:01 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:20:01 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com, karl@mcs.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: ... Self - Reminder; This is a FreeBSD, hackers mailing list. Now, Your solutions are workable, but they are user-space, application level solutions. If you are on a black box O/S with a black box DBMS, they are not only valid, but the only workable solution. If you are thinking of way to may FreeBSD, as na O/S better, so that applications can be relieved from this burden, then your solutions are less optimal. > No. If you use Online JFS, what you do: make your database > residing in one filesystem. This is a must. Then take another > 30G volume (the exact size depends on the intensity of changes, > this one estimates that no more than ~1/3 of blocks in your > original filesystem will be changed during backup) and mount it as > a "freeze" to your original filesystem. When some operation is done > on your original filesystem, the contents at the time of "freezing" > will be saved to the second volume. So when your backup reads the > "freezed" filesystem, it will take a proper block from either the > original or second volume. FreeBSD does not have, to date, a journaling file system, available in source under the Berkeley license. Even if it did, it will not solve the original problem of this thread, which was how to guarantee reliability in the face of a SCSI bus failure. > Yet better idea: don't store your database right in the filesystem, > store it in Oracle and you will get possibility of online backups > for free. Oracle for FREE? Where? >> This is a simplistic examples. Life is nastier than that. Can it be >> solved? Of course. With Unix? Yes, what do you think a 5ESS switch >> runs? >> With FreeBSD? Yes. As is today? No.... >> > Unless someone will make Oracle working on it :-) huh! ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 16:23:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03128 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:23:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02869 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:22:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 14825 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 00:28:44 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:28:44 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Chuck Robey Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: Jamie Bowden , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Chuck Robey wrote: ... > Would you mind expanding on that? I'm interested ... [ This list is turning into simon's own soap box. My apologies, but some of these issues are interesting to me and others. I hope for opposing views ] The original concept of Unix, the way I understand it was a symetrical I/O. All system resources are represented as files in a heirarchial filesystem. Files are uniformly presented as bytestreams. Then reality started messing it all up. Some files are seekable. some are not. no clean way to know that by looking at the file. Even dirtier, to tell a device something, you do not write to it. To hear something from a device you do not read it. You execute an orthogonal system call ioctl(2). Plan9 (and some devices in FreeBSD) have implemented read/write interface to /dev/foo.ctl. It should be consistent. It is not. Files are arranged in Heiracrchial order, and the mount concept was introduced to allow moving segments of the heiracrchy around. Alas, the mount is opaque. FreeBSD has a special means of taking this opacity out but it panics my system every time I try it. Unix-Unix communications is artificial, cumbersone and basically broken (See NFS). Plan9 introcuces a uniform, simple and clean message protocol that is uniform, universal, and clean. There are a host of other, even more important issues. They are well covered elsewhere. I just enjoyed the clean, elegant design. The implementation... Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 17:26:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14865 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:26:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA14671 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:25:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 15807 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 01:32:22 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803040313.UAA12989@usr05.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:32:22 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Terry Lambert Subject: RE: Disk write caches Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Terry Lambert wrote: > I would be very interested to see what the benchmarks on a machine > with soft updates would be with a disk with and without write > cacheing. I would, if I could have it not freeze up the system long enough. Any benchmark in mind? All mine are DBMS oriented, and skewed too (50% WRITE duty cycle). I have a system you csan login into and run against a 32MB cache to a 6-wide RAID-0 array. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 17:29:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15985 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:29:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15845 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:29:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 15886 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 01:35:56 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:35:56 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Remy NONNENMACHER Subject: Re: Disk write caches Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Remy NONNENMACHER wrote: ... > Not sure IMHO. Typical wait time before write starts is 20 to 50 ms or > half the internal disk buffers. Far less than sync daemon. Get a caching controller, they start at $250.00 for IDE ones. I measure 2us or less for a cache hit to such controller. I agree that RAID-0 could (should) be viewed as throw away any to the wind in the name of performance. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 17:33:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17085 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:33:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17019 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:33:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03332; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:32:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803050132.UAA03332@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: <199803042014.PAA00502@gatekeeper.itribe.net> from Jamie Bowden at "Mar 4, 98 03:19:15 pm" To: jamie@itribe.net (Jamie Bowden) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:32:16 -0500 (EST) Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jamie Bowden said: > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > > This is a simplistic examples. Life is nastier than that. Can it be > > solved? Of course. With Unix? Yes, what do you think a 5ESS switch runs? > > With FreeBSD? Yes. As is today? No.... > > Plan9? > The 5E is a network of computers, where the central computer is a modified (or enhanced) 3B20D. Alot of work happens autonomously on the beast. No way could a 3B20D keep up with all of the processing in that complex. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 17:39:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18743 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:39:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18578 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:39:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03356; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:38:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803050138.UAA03356@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Cluster? In-Reply-To: from "Ron G. Minnich" at "Mar 4, 98 10:34:04 am" To: rminnich@Sarnoff.COM (Ron G. Minnich) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:38:18 -0500 (EST) Cc: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk, tom@sdf.com, Sarnoff.COM!rminnich@minas-tirith.pol.ru, tarkhil@minas-tirith.pol.ru, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ron G. Minnich said: > > Note that Chuck Cranor's UVM fixes the problems, but it is only in > OpenBSD and NetBSD. ah well. > What exactly are the specific problems that need to be fixed? -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 17:48:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20286 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:44:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20168 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:44:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23401; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:37:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803050137.RAA23401@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: Remy NONNENMACHER , hackers@FreeBSD.org, Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Disk write caches In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:35:56 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:37:49 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Not sure IMHO. Typical wait time before write starts is 20 to 50 ms or > > half the internal disk buffers. Far less than sync daemon. > > Get a caching controller, they start at $250.00 for IDE ones. I measure > 2us or less for a cache hit to such controller. Do you know of any that do DMA? That'd be something *very* much worth supporting. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 18:22:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27723 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:22:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA27543 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:21:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 16739 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 02:28:07 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:28:06 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Tom Subject: Re: Cluster? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Alex Povolotsky , "Ron G.Minnich" , Niall Smart Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Tom wrote: ... > Or via a distributed lock manager, and shared disk storage. I > understand this is how current cluster development is going. See ftp://simon-shapiro.org/crash/patches/3.0 ... > This is the important bit. IP address assumption is critical. Some > clusters do it by assuming the MAC address to ensure an instant > transition. Look at the ISIS project from Georgia-Tech. Was incorporated as company after some time. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 18:24:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28556 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:24:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA28426 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:24:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 16797 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 02:30:37 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:30:37 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Cluster? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Alex Povolotsky , "Ron G.Minnich" , Tom , Niall Smart Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Robert Watson wrote: .... > For clustered computational work, however, there are no debates about > performance :). Hiding clustering of network services as well as > retaining reliability is a very interesting problem -- perhaps use of a > NAT to do magic would help here? We conputed about 10-25 times slower memory access for database engine type work. This was with specialized hardware, with about 800MB/Sec node-node communications. Intelectually challenging project, though... ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 18:43:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01268 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:43:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA01222 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:43:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 17167 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 02:49:45 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803050132.UAA03332@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:49:45 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, (Jamie Bowden) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote: > Jamie Bowden said: >> On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: >> >> > This is a simplistic examples. Life is nastier than that. Can it be >> > solved? Of course. With Unix? Yes, what do you think a 5ESS switch >> > runs? >> > With FreeBSD? Yes. As is today? No.... >> >> Plan9? >> > The 5E is a network of computers, where the central computer is a > modified > (or enhanced) 3B20D. Alot of work happens autonomously on the beast. No > way could a 3B20D keep up with all of the processing in that complex. There was a talk about putting a SPARC in these things. My guess used to be 8th Eddition Unix, or maybe 10th Edition. I think the discussion was around (or relevant) to the part that produces CDRs, not the switching matrix stuff. I always see them as a black box running Unix and talking TCP/IP. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 18:45:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01597 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:45:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA01505 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 17209 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 02:51:45 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803050137.RAA23401@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:51:45 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: Disk write caches Cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Remy NONNENMACHER Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: >> > Not sure IMHO. Typical wait time before write starts is 20 to 50 ms or >> > half the internal disk buffers. Far less than sync daemon. >> >> Get a caching controller, they start at $250.00 for IDE ones. I measure >> 2us or less for a cache hit to such controller. > > Do you know of any that do DMA? That'd be something *very* much worth > supporting. All The DPT controllers do DMA. The PCI ones do only DMA, no pio anymore. But these are SCSI. The IDE ones look like a standard IDE ``controller''. The ones I saw in the store claimed to do DMA, but my knowledge of IDE is old, outdated. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 18:46:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02211 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:46:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02128 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:46:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05269; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:46:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803050246.VAA05269@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 4, 98 06:49:45 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:46:25 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jamie@itribe.net From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro said: > > >> > > The 5E is a network of computers, where the central computer is a > > modified > > (or enhanced) 3B20D. Alot of work happens autonomously on the beast. No > > way could a 3B20D keep up with all of the processing in that complex. > > There was a talk about putting a SPARC in these things. My guess used to > be 8th Eddition Unix, or maybe 10th Edition. I think the discussion was > around (or relevant) to the part that produces CDRs, not the switching > matrix stuff. I always see them as a black box running Unix and talking > TCP/IP. > There is a debugging/testing version of the 5E, that will run on a Sun workstation. You can theoretically connect the Sun to SMs and have a small 5E in your office :-). I don't know if it was ever productized though. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 18:54:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04243 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:54:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA03704 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:53:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 17386 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 03:00:03 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803050246.VAA05269@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:00:03 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jamie@itribe.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote: ... > There is a debugging/testing version of the 5E, that will run on a Sun > workstation. You can theoretically connect the Sun to SMs and have > a small 5E in your office :-). I don't know if it was ever productized > though. How about putting a PC with SMP FreeBSD there? Surely will run better than a SPARC... ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 19:46:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14059 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:46:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13947; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:46:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00479; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:45:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803050345.WAA00479@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 4, 98 07:00:03 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:45:36 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jamie@itribe.net From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro said: > > On 05-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote: > > ... > > > There is a debugging/testing version of the 5E, that will run on a Sun > > workstation. You can theoretically connect the Sun to SMs and have > > a small 5E in your office :-). I don't know if it was ever productized > > though. > > How about putting a PC with SMP FreeBSD there? Surely will run better than > a SPARC... > That would be good... -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 21:17:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01685 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:17:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picasso.wcape.school.za (picasso.wcape.school.za [196.21.102.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA01670 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:16:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za) Received: from uucp by picasso.wcape.school.za with local-rmail (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yAT1Z-00068o-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 07:16:53 +0200 Received: from localhost (pvh@localhost) by leftside.wcape.school.za (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA18005 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 07:16:09 +0200 (SAT) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 07:16:09 +0200 (SAT) From: Peter van Heusden To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Detecting state of PPP Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi How does one go about writing a program to check if a PPP link is up or down? I'm running PPP in -auto mode, and I'd like to be able to tell whether the PPP link is actually up (i.e. the modem connection is in place) at any particular time. Unfortunately, the flags on tun0 stay the same (0x8051 on my system) whether the modem is connected or not. What should I be looking at? Thanks, Peter -- Peter van Heusden | Computers Networks Reds Greens Justice Peace Beer Africa pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za | Support the SAMWU 50 litres campaign! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 21:17:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01722 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:17:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picasso.wcape.school.za (picasso.wcape.school.za [196.21.102.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA01669 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:16:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za) Received: from uucp by picasso.wcape.school.za with local-rmail (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yAT1Y-00068m-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 07:16:52 +0200 Received: from localhost (pvh@localhost) by leftside.wcape.school.za (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA17997 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 07:13:06 +0200 (SAT) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 07:13:05 +0200 (SAT) From: Peter van Heusden To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Doing a reboot from a CGI script? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi I'm busy writing a set of scripts to make the management of a FreeBSD box easier (basically provide a WWW interface to manage UUCP, Squid, etc). One of the capabilities I want to build in is the ability to reboot the machine by pressing a button on a HTML page. I've tried doing this by running '/sbin/reboot' from the cgi-bin script (which is written in perl), but all that happens is that all processes are killed, and the reboot process stops there. I would imagine that somehow this means that the through killing the httpd process, the cgi-bin script and thus the reboot process have died. This seems to happen even if I fork a process from the cgi-bin script. Is there any way to get around this? Has anyone tried this before? Thanks for any info, Peter -- Peter van Heusden | Computers Networks Reds Greens Justice Peace Beer Africa pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za | Support the SAMWU 50 litres campaign! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 22:27:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13291 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:27:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oskar.nanoteq.co.za (oskar.nanoteq.co.za [196.37.91.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13278 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:27:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rbezuide@oskar.nanoteq.co.za) Received: (from rbezuide@localhost) by oskar.nanoteq.co.za (8.8.8/8.8.5) id IAA03487; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:23:06 +0200 (SAT) From: Reinier Bezuidenhout Message-Id: <199803050623.IAA03487@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> Subject: Re: Doing a reboot from a CGI script? In-Reply-To: from Peter van Heusden at "Mar 5, 98 07:13:05 am" To: pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za (Peter van Heusden) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:21:51 +0200 (SAT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hi > > I'm busy writing a set of scripts to make the management of a FreeBSD box > easier (basically provide a WWW interface to manage UUCP, Squid, etc). One > of the capabilities I want to build in is the ability to reboot the > machine by pressing a button on a HTML page. I've tried doing this by > running '/sbin/reboot' from the cgi-bin script (which is written in perl), > but all that happens is that all processes are killed, and the reboot > process stops there. I would imagine that somehow this means that the > through killing the httpd process, the cgi-bin script and thus the reboot > process have died. This seems to happen even if I fork a process from the > cgi-bin script. > > Is there any way to get around this? Has anyone tried this before? > we do something similar by calling a shell script from a tcl script .... we use shutdown instead of reboot and it works fine ... #!/bin/sh fn=$1 shift (/bin/sleep 2; /sbin/shutdown $* now > $fn 2>1 ) & Hope this helps Reinier To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 23:13:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18808 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:13:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18803 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:13:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@narnia.plutotech.com) Received: (from gibbs@localhost) by narnia.plutotech.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id AAA17706; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:10:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:10:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Message-Id: <199803050710.AAA17706@narnia.plutotech.com> To: Karl Denninger cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Newsgroups: pluto.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: <19980303200652.07366@mcs.net> <19980303232444.59397@mcs.net> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971204 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.0-CURRENT (i386)) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The best I've seen off our RAID systems right now is about 11MB/sec (that's > megaBYTES, not bits). That's on an Ultra bus, with 2 ultra busses going to > the RAID disks. > > Neither the disk buses nor the RAID controller CPU are saturated. I > believe this is pretty much the wall on one SCSI channel, at least with > 16 SCBs. I'm going to try it with SCBPAGING turned on and see if that > helps, but for sequential reads it probably won't matter much. The problem is that the largest I/O you can send to your RAID box is 64k which it will stripe over N disks. As soon as you drop to 16 or 8k a disk per transaction, you will never be able to saturate the system. This is one of the reasons CCD performs so much better than a RAID 0 external box. CCD can perform up to a 64k transaction per disk. We really need to get buffer chaining into the kernel so we can get past this silly 64k I/O barrier. > I suspect the bottleneck is in the AIC code at this point, or the bus > itself, or the interrupt latency on the DMA completion is killing me. > There is no appreciable difference between running at 40MB/sec (ultra > full-bore) and 20MB/sec, indicating that perhaps the hold-up is in the > Adaptec microcode, driver, and/or the Adaptec/PCI bus interface. You need to up the number of transactions handled in parallel. The ahc driver has no problem saturating the SCSI bus, if you feed it enough to do. > -- > Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin > http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service > | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems > Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS > Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 23:24:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21139 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:24:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA21129 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:24:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA22961 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:24:22 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA08143; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:20:33 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803050720.IAA08143@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 4, 98 03:28:04 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:20:33 +0100 (MET) Cc: julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > > On 04-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > > ... > > > free, like a $10-15 pricepoint. No real use for it here, but maybe fun > > to play with. Like the FDDI network here ;-) > > I am using FDDI (CDDI) here on my development setup. The DEC cards > supported by FreeBSD. Very boring setup; You plug them in and it works. Same experience here. 'Just works'. Picked mine up for $ 5 a piece. Should've bought more :< > Nice thing is it provides redundancy and does not need an expensive switch. I'm trying to get a FDDI hub, don't want to power up all boxes to use FDDI. > > An extra power supply is money well spent. We ship all our standalone > > arrays at least with N+1, optional 2N power. 2N gives you 2 seperate > > power entry points to the power grid. Now we only need to educate people > > to use two different power branches (phases? what's the right English > > term?) > > The old DPT 9W tower (made by DEC) had an interesting feature, where the > power INPUT was switchable too. If the AC to one supply went dowm it will > draw AC from the other. > > Yes, 2N P/S is trivial to do (2 diods/circuit if I remember right) and > cheap. Technically, you want each supply fed from a different phase. In > the US they are referredto as ``independant circuits''. I have seen people > paying lots of money to get that, where they have 220V right in the same > room (220BAC in the US is 2-phases, 180 degrees apart, unlike the European > 3 phasees 120 degrees apart. Yest, you can get 3phase circuits in the US > too). The hot wire in a 220VAC, in the us is 117VAC to ground, 220VAC > hot-hot. I don't think you can get 2phase power here. We're slowly moving from 220 -> 230. And ultimatly to 240. And 50Hz iso 60Hz op course. > >> To have the kernel actually checkpoint itself, with any better > >> resolution, > >> or intelligence will have to change too many things. I am trying to > >> make > > > > OK, that was my original question. Had a bad feeling about exactly what > > you mention here. > > What's bad? I would like to know if you think there is a mistake here. Well, bad in the sense of very complicated. Not in the sense of mistake. _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 23:24:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21194 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:24:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA21151 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:24:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA22954 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:24:17 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA08081; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:14:40 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803050714.IAA08081@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Mar 4, 98 04:14:32 pm" To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:14:40 +0100 (MET) Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, sbabkin@dcn.att.com, karl@mcs.net X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Simon Shapiro wrote... > ... > > > Or a FibreChannel array. Will be playing with that for the rest of the > > week. I'm pretty curious to see how that behaves. > > Ah, the first usable and functional disk channel to hit small computers. > The demos I saw several years ago showed over 1,700 TPS to a single drive. > And it is redundant, EMI/RFI clean, wonderful, and expensive. For now we have a FC frontend connection, and UW on the device end. Makes it possible to go from a UWD frontend array controller to a FC one with the same box & drives. > > I don't know if DPT will be part of our product offering. I play with > > what they throw at me ;-) The FC array is cute so I don't complain. > > I do NOT work for DPT. I get generous help when I need it. But they have > an FCAL HBA someplace. There was another company in Colorado (?) which had > a controller. They promised me a card to write the FreeBSD driver, but I > never hear from them anymore. HBA for PCI / FC can be had from Emulex, Jaycor, Adaptec, Genroco, PTI and probably more. > ... > > >> the ball on tracking these down but will pick it up soon. SMP is twice > >> as slow as UP in these tests. > > > > Somebody/something locking resources? But that is definetely worth > > investigating for SMP users. > > Yup. I never invoked any interest in this phenomenon, other than ``if you > find why, give me the patch''. Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 23:24:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21364 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:24:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA21241 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:24:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA22978 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:24:25 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA08153; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:22:16 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803050722.IAA08153@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: Disk write caches In-Reply-To: <199803042312.QAA17919@usr01.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 4, 98 11:12:53 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:22:16 +0100 (MET) Cc: remy@synx.com, tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Terry Lambert wrote... > I am *specifically* interested in what an FS mounted with soft updates > would do (as I don't personally have the hardware wherewithall to be > able to answer the question for myself; my DEC drives don't seem to > allow me to turn things off). What do you want to turn of? And what drives? I might be able to find out how to 'convince' them W/ _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 4 23:50:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26680 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.netcetera.dk (root@sleipner.netcetera.dk [194.192.207.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26671 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:50:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leifn@image.dk) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.netcetera.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id IAA10262 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:49:32 +0100 Received: by swimsuit.swimsuit.roskildebc.dk (0.99.970109) id AA03869; 05 Mar 98 08:52:24 +0100 From: leifn@image.dk (Leif Neland) Date: 05 Mar 98 08:42:52 +0100 Subject: Detecting state of PPP Message-ID: Organization: Fidonet: Swimsuit Safari. Go for it. To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05 Mar 98 06:16:09 Peter van Heusden (2:234/49.99) wrote to All regarding Detecting state of PPP in area "freebsd-hacker" Pv> How does one go about writing a program to check if a PPP link Pv> is up or down? I'm running PPP in -auto mode, and I'd like to be Pv> able to tell whether the PPP link is actually up (i.e. the modem Pv> connection is in place) at any particular time. Unfortunately, Pv> the flags on tun0 stay the same (0x8051 on my system) whether Pv> the modem is connected or not. What should I be looking at? In lack of anything better, you could do a tail on ppp.log through awk to look for the right strings. Leif Neland leifn@image.dk --- |Fidonet: Leif Neland 2:234/49 |Internet: leifn@image.dk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 00:50:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA05755 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:50:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isvara.net (root@[130.88.148.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA05664; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:50:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@challenge.isvara.net) Received: from challenge.isvara.net ([130.88.66.5]) by isvara.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10511; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:49:44 GMT Message-ID: <34FE672D.FA5A7F08@challenge.isvara.net> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:49:49 +0000 From: freebsd@isvara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Hackers , FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: Ethernet card driver References: <199803042232.OAA22559@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm about to write an ethernet card driver (3Com 3C905), utilizing > > all the features of the card (Bus master DMA transfers, etc). > > Sounds good. > > > What calls are required to interface to the kernel (I prefer not looking > > at other code, and writing from scratch) ? > > > > The functions {xxinit, xxattach, ...}have quite obvious names for what > > they should do, but I am unsure *exactly* what should be done were. > > The best thing for you to do _is_ to look at other code, for > real-world, known-functional examples. The fxp driver is an excellent > place to start from your point of view - it's another PCI busmaster > ethernet card, with known good performance and excellent reliability. I can look at other code, but I thought it may be quicker if anyone knew the information I was after (it would save digging through all the code), and I like writing code given a few base specificaitions, rather than seeing how someone elses' (potentally bogus) code. Any takers? Dan _____________________________________ Daniel J Blueman BSc Computation, UMIST, Manchester Email: blue@challenge.isvara.net Web: http://www.challenge.isvara.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 01:09:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08469 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:09:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from symbionics.co.uk (symsun3.symbionics.co.uk [194.32.100.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA08315 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:07:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) From: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk Received: from sympc287.symbionics.co.uk by symbionics.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18200; Thu, 5 Mar 98 09:02:25 GMT Message-Id: <9803050902.AA18200@symbionics.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: Peter van Heusden Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:58:57 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP Reply-To: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk Cc: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 07:16:09 +0200 (SAT) > From: Peter van Heusden > To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Detecting state of PPP > Hi > > How does one go about writing a program to check if a PPP link is up or > down? I'm running PPP in -auto mode, and I'd like to be able to tell > whether the PPP link is actually up (i.e. the modem connection is in > place) at any particular time. Unfortunately, the flags on tun0 stay the > same (0x8051 on my system) whether the modem is connected or not. What > should I be looking at? > > Thanks, > Peter The generic way is to either use pppctl(8) or connect to the listening socket and detect the state of the ppp prompt. ppp ON computer> --- ppp is down PPP ON computer> --- ppp is up. Something I did in tcl was the follwoing (from memory) #!/usr/local/bin/tclsh7.6 set s [socket localhost 3000] gets $s gets $s gets $s if {[read $s 3] == "PPP"} { puts "ppp is up" } else { puts "ppp is down" } close $s The three gets read the initial banner from pp; the read reads the first 3 bytes of the prompt. The socket number 3000 is talked about in the manual basically ppp will open 3000+tunnel number. You may also need to set a password in /etc/ppp.secrets. Note that the new way of talking is via a unix domain socket (a socket addressable by a file name). But tcl can't open unix domain sockets, so I did it the old way. I am using this with TkDesk to give a little phone up/down icon. Comments Brian? Duncan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 01:13:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA09182 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:13:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.netcetera.dk (root@sleipner.netcetera.dk [194.192.207.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA09173 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:13:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leifn@image.dk) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.netcetera.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id IAA10263 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:49:32 +0100 Received: by swimsuit.swimsuit.roskildebc.dk (0.99.970109) id AA03870; 05 Mar 98 08:52:24 +0100 From: leifn@image.dk (Leif Neland) Date: 05 Mar 98 08:44:55 +0100 Subject: Doing a reboot from a CGI script? Message-ID: Organization: Fidonet: Swimsuit Safari. Go for it. To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05 Mar 98 06:13:05 Peter van Heusden (2:234/49.99) wrote to All regarding Doing a reboot from a CGI script? in area "freebsd-hacker" Pv> I'm busy writing a set of scripts to make the management of a Pv> FreeBSD box easier (basically provide a WWW interface to manage Pv> UUCP, Squid, etc). One of the capabilities I want to build in is Pv> the ability to reboot the machine by pressing a button on a HTML Pv> page. I've tried doing this by running '/sbin/reboot' from the Pv> cgi-bin script (which is written in perl), but all that happens Pv> is that all processes are killed, and the reboot process stops Pv> there. I would imagine that somehow this means that the through Pv> killing the httpd process, the cgi-bin script and thus the Pv> reboot process have died. This seems to happen even if I fork a Pv> process from the cgi-bin script. Pv> Pv> Is there any way to get around this? Has anyone tried this Pv> before? You could signal init instead. kill -KILL 1. I think -KILL is the right signal; see man init. Leif Neland leifn@image.dk --- |Fidonet: Leif Neland 2:234/49 |Internet: leifn@image.dk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 02:04:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA16515 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:04:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA16360 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:03:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from remy@synx.com) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA29902; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:08:37 +0100 Received: from rs1 by s3.synx.com id aa04800; 5 Mar 98 10:54 GMT Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:53:10 -0100 (GMT) From: Remy NONNENMACHER To: Terry Lambert cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disk write caches In-Reply-To: <199803042312.QAA17919@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I would be very interested to see what the benchmarks on a machine > > > with soft updates would be with a disk with and without write > > > cacheing. > > > > I tested cache benefits within disks. Write cache disabling lowered the > > perfs from 2 to 10 time depending on operations. > > Did this include soft updates, however? > No. It was using 3.0 from December (25). How does soft update compares with async mounts ? Will the driver immediatly responding 'OK' for each write have no more interest with soft update ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 02:20:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19664 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:20:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tyree.iii.co.uk (tyree.iii.co.uk [195.89.149.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19566; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:19:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@iii.co.uk) From: nik@iii.co.uk Received: from carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (carrig.strand.iii.co.uk [192.168.7.25]) by tyree.iii.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08267; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:13:49 GMT Received: (from nik@localhost) by carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14388; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:18:58 GMT Message-ID: <19980305101856.57666@iii.co.uk> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:18:56 +0000 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Proposal] Policy for ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/incoming/ and its environs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e Organization: interactive investor Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi folks [ x-posted to -hackers and -ports, since it affects both communities. Reply-to *not* set, please reply to the mailing list which is most appropriate (or directly to freebsd-maintainers@ftp.freebsd.org) ] Your FreeBSD 'maintainers' have been busy over the past few weeks working through /incoming/, and in the process have come up with the following proposal, which will affect everyone who's uploaded stuff into /incoming/, and anyone who regularly trawls through that directory to commit new ports, patches and so on. Comments appreciated. If there are no complaints then we'll (a) start doing things like this and (b) roll a variation on this description into the handbook. [Proposal] Policy for ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/incoming/ and its environs $Id: policy-incoming.sgml,v 1.5 1998/03/04 22:26:51 nik Exp $ Contents 1 Outline 2 The maintainers 3 New directories and policies 3.1 development/ports/mumble/ 3.2 development/mumble/ 3.3 development/misc/ 3.4 downloads/ 3.5 incoming/ 4 Conclusion This document proposes a new policy for the maintenance of incoming/ directory (ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/incoming/) and associated directories. The aim is to alleviate the current situation, where incoming/ has become a dumping ground for all manner of ports submissions, patches to the OS and other assorted bits and pieces. 1 Outline The maintainers have the job of sifting through incoming/, removing outdated files and trying to organise what remains. The maintainers will periodically (typically every few days) work through new submissions moving them into one a number of new directory hierarchies. Other people and/or automated scripts will then manage the files from there. 2 The maintainers The current maintainers are Steve Sims and Nik Clayton. They can be reached (collectively) as FreeBSD-maintainers@ftp.FreeBSD.ORG. 3 New directories and policies As files are removed from incoming/ they will be placed in one of a number of new directory hierarchies, depending on the nature of the file. 3.1 development/ports/mumble/ Anything in incoming/ that looks like a port tarball will be examined. If the port has already been committed to the ports system then it will be deleted. Otherwise, the port tarball (and any associated README) will be moved to a directory under development/ports/. The directory it is moved to depends on the port. The maintainers will endeavour to ensure that the directory hierarchy under development/ports/ mirrors that of a regular ports tree. However, there will be occasions where the specific category to use will not be obvious, in which case the port will be placed in development/ports/unfiled/. The maintainers will endeavour to see if there is an outstanding PR relating to that port. If there is, the port tarball will be renamed, and the PR number will be placed at the beginning of the filename, seperated with a period ``.''. The maintainer will then update the PR to indicate the new location of the tarball. It is envisaged that members of the ports team will periodically check these directories for new submissions, and either commit them or reject them. When the ports team member has done this, they should remove the tarball from this directory. It should be possible (with a little sh and cron) to have interested parties automatically e-mailed shortly after new ports are moved to this hierarchy. Periodically, a maintainer will check the contents of this directory, to see if any ``ports with a PR number'' have had their associated PR closed. If they have, the maintainer will delete the tarball. This directory will be read-only from the FTP server. 3.2 development/mumble/ Specific, on-going FreeBSD projects that have not yet been (and may not be) integrated into the codebase will receive (upon request from the developer) a directory under the development/ hierarchy. Examples of current projects that would fit under this scheme include PicoBSD, the soft update patches, ISA PNP code and the bISDN submission. The developer may (or may not) receive a login on wcarchive to write to that portion of this hierarchy that covers their projects. That's not yet been decided. In the event that they don't, the developer will need to e-mail the maintainers when they have uploaded a new version of their code into incoming/, and the maintainers can move it over. This directory will be read-only from the FTP server. 3.3 development/misc/ Anything that looks like a one off development project (for example, Julian Ellischer's ``suiddir'' patches) will be moved to this directory. The maintainers will endeavour to keep an up to date INDEX in this directory, outlining what the various submissions do. This directory will be read-only from the FTP server. 3.4 downloads/ Anything that's left in incoming/ that doesn't fit into the above categories is either warez/porn, or has been uploaded in order to make it available to a wider audience, but with a limited useful life span. In the case of the former, it will be deleted. In the case of the latter, it will be moved to this directory. A cron job will clear this directory of all files older than three weeks. This directory will be read-only from the FTP server. 3.5 incoming/ incoming/ stays pretty much as it is now. It is write-only from the FTP server, but the majority of its contents will be moved to another location fairly rapidly, so it shouldn't continue to grow. 4 Conclusion This scheme should mean that incoming/ becomes manageable. It seperates out the ports and development efforts (which make up most of incoming/ at the moment) which should make it easier for the ports team to find and commit submitted ports (and also see which non-PR'd ports have been submitted). It might also ``legitimise'' some of the other development efforts (such as PicoBSD) by giving them their own development directory. Finally, it lets people upload files to incoming/ of use to the wider FreeBSD community, secure in the knowledge that they'll get moved to downloads/ where other people can try them out. -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 02:23:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA20238 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:23:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA20217 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:23:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from remy@synx.com) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA00108; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:27:02 +0100 Received: from rs1 by s3.synx.com id aa04974; 5 Mar 98 11:12 GMT Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:11:35 -0100 (GMT) From: Remy NONNENMACHER To: Simon Shapiro cc: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, tlambert@primenet.com, jdn@acp.qiv.com, blkirk@float.eli.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com, karl@mcs.net Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > On 04-Mar-98 sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: > > ... > > I have a better solution, which was implemented here at my work (and I'll > repeat if my employer ahd the guy that wote it do not contribute it); > This is NOT my original idea, but so old I do not remember who did it first; > > You start with two identical databases. You modify the (postgres) libpq, > or (Oracle) SQL*Net interface to intercept all data-modifying SQL > statements (you do not care about SELECT and such). You cache those until > you see a COMMIT. If you see a ROLLBACK, you discard all that cache. > When you capture the SQL statements, you stamp each with a high precision > time stamp (does not have to be accurate, but has to be precise). When you > see a COMMIT, you ship the whole thing to a remote machine. The remote > machine can simply log these, or apply them against a reference database. > If you just logthem, you sort them by the timestamp before you apply them. > The quality of the resultant database is surprisingly good. Especially for > an OLTP system. the advantages are obvious. > And what about sending all packets to two RDBMS at the same time and dropping one of the results when it come back?. Instead of having only a copy, you can also have fault tolerancy since if one machine goes down, you simply send the result from the other ? (Would probably need clock synchonisation and on random numbers that can be generated by either machine and a physical DB copy before starting). Surely their is a lot of applications that can be forked/merged like this from a network point of vue. (I remember seeing something about equaly MACed NICS with one machine listening the result of the other and the two machine running the same program (using a lightly synchronised kernel)). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 02:29:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21447 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:29:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (SNvVIyOyISPeVBxgmkIB6UYAeN5F+4MM@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA21440 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:29:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from oak67.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.33.67] ([gl+HtTgJOkEhNWn1LOKt6shpo5izPD+q]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0yAXtW-0002kB-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:28:54 +0000 Received: from njs3 by oak67.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0yAXsq-0005qk-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:28:12 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:28:11 +0000 In-Reply-To: Tom "Re: Cluster?" (Mar 4, 9:48am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Tom , Niall Smart Subject: Re: Cluster? Cc: "Ron G. Minnich" , Alex Povolotsky , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mar 4, 9:48am, Tom wrote: } Subject: Re: Cluster? > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Niall Smart wrote: > > of months from now though. One particular thing that could benefit > > easily from this are DNS servers, other servers like mail and news wouldn't > > DNS? DNS already has excellent fault-tolerant capabilities. I should have mentioned that I was had dynamic DNS in mind, in this scenario the two (or n) DNS servers could share the data structures in a shared memory region so that an update by any would be reflected in the address spaces of all the others. I agree that DNS has fault tolerant capabilities but I wouldn't call them excellent, its annoying to have to wait for requests to the primary to time out before the resolver library starts hitting on the secondaries. > > be so easy, because of the need for a reliable shared filesystem. Plus > > there is the problem of how to get clients of these servers to contact > > the redundant one in the event of a failure, I think someone has done > > something in this area using proxy arp... > > This is the important bit. IP address assumption is critical. Some > clusters do it by assuming the MAC address to ensure an instant > transition. Hmm, thats an interesting one, can most cards be programmed to accept frames with specific MAC's? Niall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 02:37:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22627 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iclub.nsu.ru (iclub.nsu.ru [193.124.222.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22042 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:34:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from semen@iclub.nsu.ru) Received: from localhost (semen@localhost) by iclub.nsu.ru (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA18493; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:31:54 +0600 (NS) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:31:54 +0600 (NS) From: Ustimenko Semen To: Mike Smith cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are mbufs aligned or bounded on something? In-Reply-To: <199803042234.OAA22577@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello! On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > Unless it explicitly matters to your hardware, you should assume that > mbuf clusters are aligned to suit the architecture you're running on. > > If it *does* matter to your hardware, I would be inclined to suggest > that you code to handle all situations, and optimise for the case where > the alignment best suits you. This will greatly improve the > portability of your code. > It realy touch hardware becouse i pass physical address of mtod( caddr_t, mbuf) to hardware, and if it cross the PAGE_SIZE, DMA operation will overwrite some physical address that do not belong to mbuf data area:( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 05:19:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10038 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:19:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from canyon.merrimack.edu (canyon.merrimack.edu [204.165.80.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA10031 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:19:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from greg@merrimack.edu) Received: from merrimack.edu (204.165.80.172) by chasm.merrimack.edu (MX V5.0) with ESMTP; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:14:42 -1300 Message-ID: <34FEA5A7.1CE23830@merrimack.edu> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:16:23 -0500 From: Greg Fraize X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter van Heusden CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PPP Stuff References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I recently change to a diferent ISP, and after i change ISP I try to connect with my reeBSD box by using ppp -auto but for some reason with this new ISP ppp does not work.... if I do a tail on the /var/log/ppp.log file it seems to freeze right before it link my assign IP to my card...... any help would be great Greg greg@merrimack.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 05:38:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA13386 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:38:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rocksalt.mui.net ([207.12.13.235]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA13352 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:38:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@mui.net) From: ken@mui.net Received: from prune.mui.net (prune.mui.net [207.12.13.234]) by rocksalt.mui.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA01489 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 03:38:17 -1000 (HST) (envelope-from ken@mui.net) Message-Id: <199803051338.DAA01489@rocksalt.mui.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 03:35:19 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PPP Stuff In-reply-to: <34FEA5A7.1CE23830@merrimack.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I recently change to a diferent ISP, and after i change ISP I try to > connect with my reeBSD box by using ppp -auto > > but for some reason with this new ISP ppp does not work.... > if I do a tail on the /var/log/ppp.log file it seems > to freeze right before it link my assign IP to my card...... > any help would be great > could it be that his ppp login script is different? ie, some isp's may be using login: or log: or logname: or whatever. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 06:00:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17148 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:00:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from canyon.merrimack.edu (canyon.merrimack.edu [204.165.80.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA17139 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:00:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from greg@merrimack.edu) Received: from merrimack.edu (204.165.80.172) by chasm.merrimack.edu (MX V5.0) with ESMTP; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:56:11 -1300 Message-ID: <34FEAF60.C1F87216@merrimack.edu> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:57:52 -0500 From: Greg Fraize Reply-To: greg@merrimack.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ken@mui.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PPP Stuff References: <199803051352.DAA01580@rocksalt.mui.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG it does connect with the isp..and I can watch the login and password be sent and the isp box logs me on.... the one thing i am not sure on.... is I have my buad rate set at 115200 ..but the modem I am connecting to is a 33.6 .....should I have my buad rate set to 33.6 ? and if the answer is yes...that number should I use to set my buad rate I know that is a pretty dum question...but i just want to make sure I get the right number thansk Greg > > are u able to try and log in using a non-unix machine, such as win95? > that way you can 1) make sure the modem init string is working 2) > the baud rate matches and 3) that you haven't missed something simple > regarding the login procedure. I realize that it sounds simplistic, > but i've seen it happen where the isp uses something like gfraize.ppp > and others may use Pgfraize, etc. > > sorry I can't be more helpful ... > > ken > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Return-Path: > Received: from rocksalt.mui.net (207.12.13.235) by canyon.merrimack.edu (MX > V5.0) with ESMTP; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:48:34 -1300 > Received: from prune.mui.net (prune.mui.net [207.12.13.234]) by > rocksalt.mui.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA01580 for > ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 03:52:41 -1000 (HST) > (envelope-from ken@mui.net) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 06:24:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19883 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:24:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from proxy.stinol.lipetsk.ru ([193.232.237.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA19076 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:22:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ym@stinol.lipetsk.ru) Received: from exchange.stinol.int ([172.17.3.14]) by proxy.stinol.lipetsk.ru (8.8.5/8.8.5/sgena/290397) with ESMTP id RAA28456 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:21:02 +0300 (MSK) Received: by EXCHANGE with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:24:01 +0300 Message-ID: <26F5F31730F8D011A44100805F14F1FC21ED1E@EXCHANGE> From: "Mashkovtsev, Yuri" To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PPP Stuff Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:24:00 +0300 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > the one thing i am not sure on.... > is I have my buad rate set at > 115200 > ..but the modem I am connecting to is a 33.6 > .....should I have my buad rate set to 33.6 ? > No, you should not, since 115200 means port speed (remember about data compression between modems). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 06:35:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21377 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:35:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from canyon.merrimack.edu (canyon.merrimack.edu [204.165.80.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA21369 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:35:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from greg@merrimack.edu) Received: from merrimack.edu (204.165.80.172) by chasm.merrimack.edu (MX V5.0) with ESMTP; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:25:55 -1300 Message-ID: <34FEB656.D0155331@merrimack.edu> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 09:27:34 -0500 From: Greg Fraize Reply-To: greg@merrimack.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Mashkovtsev, Yuri" CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PPP Stuff References: <26F5F31730F8D011A44100805F14F1FC21ED1E@EXCHANGE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG that is what I thought to...but I just wanted to bounce my idea off someone else.... thanks.... > No, you should not, since 115200 means port speed (remember > about data compression between modems). > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Return-Path: > Received: from oz.plymouth.edu (158.136.1.100) by chasm.merrimack.edu (MX V5.0) > with ESMTP; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:23:08 -1300 > Received: from eot.cs.uoregon.edu (eot.cs.uoregon.edu [128.223.202.87]) by > oz.plymouth.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA14492 for > ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:26:36 -0500 (EST) > Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by > eot.cs.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA27084; Thu, 5 Mar > 1998 06:26:05 -0800 (PST) > Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) > with SMTP id GAA20460; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:26:03 -0800 (PST) > (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers) > Received: by hub.freebsd.org (bulk_mailer v1.6); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:24:15 -0800 > Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id > GAA19883 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:24:13 -0800 > (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) > Received: from proxy.stinol.lipetsk.ru ([193.232.237.136]) by hub.freebsd.org > (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA19076 for > ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:22:34 -0800 (PST) > (envelope-from ym@stinol.lipetsk.ru) > Received: from exchange.stinol.int ([172.17.3.14]) by proxy.stinol.lipetsk.ru > (8.8.5/8.8.5/sgena/290397) with ESMTP id RAA28456 for > ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:21:02 +0300 (MSK) > Received: by EXCHANGE with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; > Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:24:01 +0300 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 06:57:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA23375 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:57:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA23361 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:56:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id IAA25404; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:56:55 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id IAA06363; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:56:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980305085654.20326@mcs.net> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:56:54 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980303200652.07366@mcs.net> <199803050710.AAA17706@narnia.plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199803050710.AAA17706@narnia.plutotech.com>; from Justin T. Gibbs on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 12:10:14AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 12:10:14AM -0700, Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > > The best I've seen off our RAID systems right now is about 11MB/sec (that's > > megaBYTES, not bits). That's on an Ultra bus, with 2 ultra busses going to > > the RAID disks. > > > > Neither the disk buses nor the RAID controller CPU are saturated. I > > believe this is pretty much the wall on one SCSI channel, at least with > > 16 SCBs. I'm going to try it with SCBPAGING turned on and see if that > > helps, but for sequential reads it probably won't matter much. > > The problem is that the largest I/O you can send to your RAID box is > 64k which it will stripe over N disks. As soon as you drop to 16 or > 8k a disk per transaction, you will never be able to saturate the system. > This is one of the reasons CCD performs so much better than a RAID 0 > external box. CCD can perform up to a 64k transaction per disk. > We really need to get buffer chaining into the kernel so we can get past > this silly 64k I/O barrier. > > > I suspect the bottleneck is in the AIC code at this point, or the bus > > itself, or the interrupt latency on the DMA completion is killing me. > > There is no appreciable difference between running at 40MB/sec (ultra > > full-bore) and 20MB/sec, indicating that perhaps the hold-up is in the > > Adaptec microcode, driver, and/or the Adaptec/PCI bus interface. > > You need to up the number of transactions handled in parallel. The ahc > driver has no problem saturating the SCSI bus, if you feed it enough > to do. Will going to paged SCBs do this? Some disks have had trouble with this in the past, which is why I run it disabled right now. But with the CMD controllers in the loop now, that's no longer a factor. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 07:07:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24914 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 07:07:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from spiv.fnal.gov (spiv.fnal.gov [131.225.124.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA24890 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 07:07:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neswold@fnal.gov) Received: from localhost (neswold@localhost) by spiv.fnal.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA05013; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:09:14 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: spiv.fnal.gov: neswold owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:09:14 -0600 (CST) From: "Richard M. Neswold" Reply-To: neswold@fnal.gov To: Peter van Heusden cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Spambot-Food: abuse@localhost postmaster@localhost abuse@fbi.gov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Peter van Heusden wrote: > How does one go about writing a program to check if a PPP link is up or > down? I'm running PPP in -auto mode, and I'd like to be able to tell > whether the PPP link is actually up (i.e. the modem connection is in > place) at any particular time. Unfortunately, the flags on tun0 stay the > same (0x8051 on my system) whether the modem is connected or not. What > should I be looking at? If you're looking for a way to do it in a script, I've found two successful methods. Both methods use 'ifconfig' to check the state. The first method is in Perl. The following test works on my system: if (index(`ifconfig -l -u`, "tun0") > -1) { ... this code executes when 'tun0' is active... } I use a different method in my crontab file. My cron job to periodically grab the latest sources has this command (I took out the full paths to make it fit on one line): ifconfig -l -u | grep -q tun0 && cvsup -L 1 -g /etc/supfile This way, I only grab the sources if my connection is active. You can test for "down" interfaces by replacing the -u option with -d. Hope this helps... Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard Neswold, Accelerator Div./Controls Dept | neswold@fnal.gov Fermilab, PO Box 500, MS 347, Batavia, IL 60510 | voice (630) 840-3454 'finger neswold@aduxb.fnal.gov' for PGP key | fax (630) 840-3093 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 08:47:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05449 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:47:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from att.com (cagw1.att.com [192.128.52.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA05430 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:47:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sbabkin@dcn.att.com) From: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Received: by cagw1.att.com; Thu Mar 5 11:40 EST 1998 Received: from dcn71.dcn.att.com (dcn71.dcn.att.com [135.44.192.112]) by caig1.att.att.com (AT&T/GW-1.0) with ESMTP id LAA25793 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:46:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by dcn71.dcn.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:49:14 -0500 Message-ID: To: tom@sdf.com, njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk Cc: Sarnoff.COM!rminnich@minas-tirith.pol.ru, tarkhil@minas-tirith.pol.ru, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Cluster? Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:49:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > ---------- > From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk[SMTP:njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk] > > > DNS? DNS already has excellent fault-tolerant capabilities. > > I should have mentioned that I was had dynamic DNS in mind, in this > scenario the two (or n) DNS servers could share the data structures in > a > shared memory region so that an update by any would be reflected in > the > address spaces of all the others. I agree that DNS has fault > tolerant > capabilities but I wouldn't call them excellent, its annoying to have > to > wait for requests to the primary to time out before the resolver > library > starts hitting on the secondaries. > I have a simple solution for this :-) A daemon that every N minutes sends a request to all DNS servers listed and moves the one from which it got the first reply to the first position in this file. Of course, it will make additional overhead but it will be highly portable and do not touch any internals of already compiled programs. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 08:58:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07794 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:58:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (ODoFkYXHWF4ldYEIGALl2VjsNX0lFb7d@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA07770 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:58:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from oak65.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.33.65] ([Q0Dz3GahBfFrFJq5lHl887Ng76zkvido]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0yAdyN-0004yW-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:58:20 +0000 Received: from njs3 by oak65.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0yAdxT-0000T7-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:57:23 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:57:22 +0000 In-Reply-To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com "RE: Cluster?" (Mar 5, 11:49am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tom@sdf.com, njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: Cluster? Cc: Sarnoff.COM!rminnich@minas-tirith.pol.ru, tarkhil@minas-tirith.pol.ru, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mar 5, 11:49am, sbabkin@dcn.att.com wrote: } Subject: RE: Cluster? > > address spaces of all the others. I agree that DNS has fault > > tolerant > > capabilities but I wouldn't call them excellent, its annoying to have > > to > > wait for requests to the primary to time out before the resolver > > library > > starts hitting on the secondaries. > > > I have a simple solution for this :-) A daemon that every > N minutes sends a request to all DNS servers listed and > moves the one from which it got the first reply to the > first position in this file. Of course, it will make > additional overhead but it will be highly portable and do > not touch any internals of already compiled programs. Well, thats a nice hack, but it doesn't solve the problem of dynamic DNS, also this kind of functionality should be part of the resolver library. [ Note: This is the last email on which I will CC you all, sorry for cluttering up your mailboxes, I'm sure the thread can continue in -hackers ] Niall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 09:02:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08726 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:02:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (zv5V1T/6/jIvjHKNcp33hpK65a/93v/B@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA08544 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:01:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from oak65.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.33.65] ([UnFfQtKs2XDF9HTqdTV1Hh+Hj/nOjNze]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0yAe1D-0004zT-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:01:15 +0000 Received: from njs3 by oak65.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0yAe0X-0000U0-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:00:33 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:00:33 +0000 In-Reply-To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com "RE: Cluster?" (Mar 5, 11:49am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, tom@sdf.com, njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: Cluster? Cc: Sarnoff.COM!rminnich@minas-tirith.pol.ru, tarkhil@minas-tirith.pol.ru, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oh yeah... it will overload your DNS servers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 09:13:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11039 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:13:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA11018 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:12:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yAdui-00040w-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:54:32 -0800 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:54:20 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Niall Smart cc: "Ron G. Minnich" , Alex Povolotsky , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cluster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Niall Smart wrote: > > DNS? DNS already has excellent fault-tolerant capabilities. > > I should have mentioned that I was had dynamic DNS in mind, in this > scenario the two (or n) DNS servers could share the data structures in a > shared memory region so that an update by any would be reflected in the BIND can do this with NOTIFY too. > address spaces of all the others. I agree that DNS has fault tolerant > capabilities but I wouldn't call them excellent, its annoying to have to > wait for requests to the primary to time out before the resolver library > starts hitting on the secondaries. Speak for your own resolver. I can't even tell if a primary fails. ... > Hmm, thats an interesting one, can most cards be programmed to accept > frames with specific MAC's? I don't know about PCs, but on Sun hardware, the MAC address was programmed in PROM on the motherboard, and the kernel would configure all cards with the MAC address on init. This was handy for diskless workstations, as the workstations MAC address would never change even ethernet cards were swapped. > Niall Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 09:46:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17073 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:46:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA17064 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:46:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@plutotech.com) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA21520; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:45:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803051745.KAA21520@pluto.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Karl Denninger cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:56:54 CST." <19980305085654.20326@mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:42:27 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Will going to paged SCBs do this? SCB paging gives you the potential to have up to 255 transactions outstanding, but with the current SCSI system, bumping the transaction count that high can be hazardous. I would suggest trying the next CAM snapshot on this box and see how the performance changes. The CAM driver defaults to 64 tags per device but that can safely and easily be changed up to 255 with a quirk entry. It looks like the next snapshot will come out on either Friday or Saturday of this week. >-- >Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin >http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service > | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems >Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS >Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 10:09:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20777 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:09:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA20702 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:09:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id MAA07798; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:09:43 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id MAA20077; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:09:43 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980305120943.00850@mcs.net> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:09:43 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980305085654.20326@mcs.net> <199803051745.KAA21520@pluto.plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199803051745.KAA21520@pluto.plutotech.com>; from Justin T. Gibbs on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:42:27AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG My concern for these is as follows: 1) The devices on the RAID arrays are high-availability required machines (ie: primary NFS fileservers, News service, and the authentication database machines). NONE OF THESE can afford to be down or crash. 2) -CURRENT at present has a reputation for having some trouble, particularly at the kernel level. I'm running mid-November kernels and operating system releases on these machines right now due to this. That release *is* stable in these uses. Am I asking for major trouble if I up-rev to a recent (like last night) -CURRENT? -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:42:27AM -0700, Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > >Will going to paged SCBs do this? > > SCB paging gives you the potential to have up to 255 transactions > outstanding, but with the current SCSI system, bumping the transaction > count that high can be hazardous. I would suggest trying the next CAM > snapshot on this box and see how the performance changes. The CAM driver > defaults to 64 tags per device but that can safely and easily be changed > up to 255 with a quirk entry. > > It looks like the next snapshot will come out on either Friday or Saturday > of this week. > > >-- > >Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin > >http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service > > | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems > >Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS > >Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost > > -- > Justin > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 10:13:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22103 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:13:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA21976 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:13:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from ragnet.demon.co.uk ([158.152.46.40]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2025315; 5 Mar 98 18:02 GMT Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yAVg3-0006iN-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:06:51 +0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:06:50 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Simon Shapiro Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com, Wilko Bulte Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Mar-98 Simon Shapiro wrote: > > On 04-Mar-98 Wilko Bulte wrote: > > ... > >> An extra power supply is money well spent. We ship all our standalone >> arrays at least with N+1, optional 2N power. 2N gives you 2 seperate >> power entry points to the power grid. Now we only need to educate people >> to use two different power branches (phases? what's the right English >> term?) > > The old DPT 9W tower (made by DEC) had an interesting feature, where the > power INPUT was switchable too. If the AC to one supply went dowm it will > draw AC from the other. > > Yes, 2N P/S is trivial to do (2 diods/circuit if I remember right) and > cheap. Technically, you want each supply fed from a different phase. In > the US they are referredto as ``independant circuits''. I have seen people > paying lots of money to get that, where they have 220V right in the same > room (220BAC in the US is 2-phases, 180 degrees apart, unlike the European > 3 phasees 120 degrees apart. Yest, you can get 3phase circuits in the US > too). The hot wire in a 220VAC, in the us is 117VAC to ground, 220VAC > hot-hot. > Are you sure you guys want to use different phases of a the same feed? Remember all two or three phases come into the building from the same sub-station down the same pice of cable. Most comman fault is a digger cutting this cable taking out all three phases or temp. shorts in the overheads to the sub-station (auto reset ater a couple of minutes; usually from wind blowing the cables together). You need feeds from seperate sub-stations. Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 10:56:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28128 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:56:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (8InG7lFaNcwikuQ/SQe8oD5xLxo+7JEv@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA28111 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:56:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from oak65.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.33.65] ([S7CsXDFFMU9+tv07GNP+fweknOhdKXd9]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0yAfow-0005XB-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:56:42 +0000 Received: from njs3 by oak65.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0yAfoG-0000sB-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:56:00 +0000 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:56:00 +0000 In-Reply-To: Karl Denninger "Re: SCSI Bus redundancy..." (Mar 5, 12:09pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Karl Denninger , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mar 5, 12:09pm, Karl Denninger wrote: } Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... > > 1) The devices on the RAID arrays are high-availability required machines > (ie: primary NFS fileservers, News service, and the authentication > database machines). NONE OF THESE can afford to be down or crash. "NONE OF THESE"? Ever heard of Stratus Computer Corporation? Niall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 11:00:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28791 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:00:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28682 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:59:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id MAA10948; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:59:11 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id MAA22575; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:59:11 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980305125911.15755@mcs.net> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:59:11 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: Niall Smart Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Niall Smart on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 06:56:00PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 06:56:00PM +0000, Niall Smart wrote: > On Mar 5, 12:09pm, Karl Denninger wrote: > } Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... > > > > 1) The devices on the RAID arrays are high-availability required machines > > (ie: primary NFS fileservers, News service, and the authentication > > database machines). NONE OF THESE can afford to be down or crash. > > "NONE OF THESE"? Ever heard of Stratus Computer Corporation? > > Niall Actually, if I didn't care about the cost, Tandem makes some very good fault-tolerant machines. Of course the problem is "if you don't care about the cost". Reality is that building something 100% fail-proof is just not economically justified in the ISP business. In other lines of work, it is. However, being able to swap a CPU in 5 minutes (the only non-redundant component) is one thing. Having persistent OS crashes is entirely different. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 11:02:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29335 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:02:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29330 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:02:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01580; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:02:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803051902.OAA01580@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: <19980305120943.00850@mcs.net> from Karl Denninger at "Mar 5, 98 12:09:43 pm" To: karl@mcs.net (Karl Denninger) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:02:32 -0500 (EST) Cc: gibbs@plutotech.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Karl Denninger said: > My concern for these is as follows: > > 1) The devices on the RAID arrays are high-availability required machines > (ie: primary NFS fileservers, News service, and the authentication > database machines). NONE OF THESE can afford to be down or crash. > > 2) -CURRENT at present has a reputation for having some trouble, > particularly at the kernel level. I'm running mid-November kernels > and operating system releases on these machines right now due to > this. That release *is* stable in these uses. > > Am I asking for major trouble if I up-rev to a recent (like last night) > -CURRENT? > Please don't yet. I am working at 100% trying to resolve some problems. I will try to get done more quickly, but I don't want to risk any more bugs. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 11:03:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29761 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:03:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29710 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:03:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18797; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:03:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd018774; Thu Mar 5 12:03:22 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA29505; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:03:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803051903.MAA29505@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Disk write caches To: remy@synx.com (Remy NONNENMACHER) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:03:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Remy NONNENMACHER" at Mar 5, 98 09:53:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > I would be very interested to see what the benchmarks on a machine > > > > with soft updates would be with a disk with and without write > > > > cacheing. > > > > > > I tested cache benefits within disks. Write cache disabling lowered the > > > perfs from 2 to 10 time depending on operations. > > > > Did this include soft updates, however? > > No. It was using 3.0 from December (25). How does soft update compares > with async mounts? For many operations it's faster. Async mounts do not necessarily imply write gathering. Soft Updates use an I/O "clock" that can result in gathered writes. The difference is that there are a reduced number of I/O's in the softupdates uses of async I/O vs. the async mount uses of async I/O. For some operations, the clock and the number of buckets in the clock cause a slowdown. This can be tuned two ways (neither of which are implemented as tunables at this time). The reallocation is a bit of work, so it would require an event rather than a simple value change to make it work. The sysctl() code is not very well suited to this type of thing (attaching code to a change operation). In practice, these tunables would only be needed in pessimal cases, for benchmarking things like large tree creates (which are a tiny bit slower than async). If you combine the create/delete time, then the soft updates code is *vastly* faster than async, even with noatime, because it gathers metadata writes. > Will the driver immediatly responding 'OK' for each write have no > more interest with soft update ? I don't understand the question. The reason I asked my question (which Julian has stated he will be answering, thereby letting me off the hook of getting my own hardware that will disable write cache on the drive) is that I question the value of a write cache, if sync writes are not being performed for nearly any operations. Effectively, soft updates creates a write cache in software, which is smarter about OS usage patterns than the write cache in hardware (being that soft updates has an exact graphical model of the optimal usage pattern). My question bears on the utility of cacheing and returning a driver level write in the case where nearly all controller level writes are cached and returned by the soft update dependecy creation process. There has been a lot of interest in the Simon/SCSI/RAID thread about fault tolerance. It seems to me that a system *without* disk write caching is more fault tolerant than a system *with* disk write caching. It is a pity that standard PC architecture machines do not include power supplies with seperate AC and DC powerfail notification, nor motherboard circuitry to notify the OS of the AC failure so that the OS can do something about it (in a driver). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 11:06:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00915 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:06:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA00814 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:06:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA03715; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:05:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:05:00 -0500 (EST) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: "John S. Dyson" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: vm architecture of freebsd. In-Reply-To: <199803050138.UAA03356@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > What exactly are the specific problems that need to be fixed? actually, there's a very long note I sent years ago to the freebsd list on the problems. There are implementation problems, problems with VFS interaction (e.g. NFS), but the ones which caused me trouble are architectural. example: last time I checked, you can msync an mmap'ed page, and if it is backed by NFS, the page is not really purged. The next time you fault on the page, it's just pulled out of the NFS block cache. That's wrong. But it's hard to fix because the VM system can't tell the VFS that it should purge the page from its cache: the information is not available in the arguments to the VFS from the VM. Follow the VM fault path: at each level, information is added as more is learned, but not all the information is passed down to the lower levels, such as faulting VA, fault type, etc. This is I suppose good Information Hiding policy, but it's bad for my needs. Also the VM tends to not consult the underlying object for a number of cases, the worst one being that if a write fault occurs on a read-only page, the VM will tend to add write access without asking the VFS is that is ok. For an example of how the VM ought to work, see, e.g. SunOS. Yes, I'm serious. Anyway this is a years old discussion I have gone into on this group about once a year, so if there are archives more detail is in them. Since Chuck Cranor has basically resolved my problems in Open- and Net-BSD, I'm not as concerned with FreeBSD VM limitations at this point ... I also provided some fixes for the VM to support the MNFS that ran on 2.0.5R, but these were never adopted. thanks ron To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 11:23:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02456 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:23:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA02442 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:22:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21995; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:22:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:22:42 -0500 (EST) From: Snob Art Genre To: Leif Neland cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Doing a reboot from a CGI script? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 5 Mar 1998, Leif Neland wrote: > You could signal init instead. kill -KILL 1. > I think -KILL is the right signal; see man init. "kill -INT 1" for this. Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 11:25:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03070 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:25:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA03049 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:25:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA32730 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:25:08 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id UAA02461; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:24:01 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803051924.UAA02461@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party To: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD hackers list) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:24:01 +0100 (MET) Cc: rene@tcja.nl (Rene 'Freeze' de Vries), arnoud.venema@ict.nl (Arnoud Venema) X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi All, We are currently contemplating the feasibility of organising a 2nd European hackers party. All in the best traditions of the 'Aachen party' organised bij Christoph 'Kuku' Kukulies a couple of years (! already) ago. The idea is to poll for interest, while at the same time trying to find out if we can get accomodation for this. Location will be Arnhem, the Netherlands. www.mapquest.com can probably produce you a map, or look at www.dhp.nl for a satellite image. In order not to clutter the -hackers list, we've set up a (closed) majordomo list on majordomo@tcja.nl, just send it a message body 'subscribe hackersparty' People are invited to subscribe if they are interested, the list will be the delivery vehicle of status messages etc. No guarantees yet it is gonna work, but we are going to try. Wilko Bulte Rene de Vries _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 11:32:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04368 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:32:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04357 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:32:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17023; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:32:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd017003; Thu Mar 5 12:32:50 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02034; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:32:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803051932.MAA02034@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: vm architecture of freebsd. To: rminnich@Sarnoff.COM (Ron G. Minnich) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:32:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Ron G. Minnich" at Mar 5, 98 02:05:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > What exactly are the specific problems that need to be fixed? > > actually, there's a very long note I sent years ago to the freebsd list on > the problems. There are implementation problems, problems with VFS > interaction (e.g. NFS), but the ones which caused me trouble are > architectural. > > example: last time I checked, you can msync an mmap'ed page, and if it is > backed by NFS, the page is not really purged. The next time you fault on > the page, it's just pulled out of the NFS block cache. That's wrong. But > it's hard to fix because the VM system can't tell the VFS that it should > purge the page from its cache: the information is not available in the > arguments to the VFS from the VM. This is no longer true. Now there is an NFS specific putpages (if my last set of changes was committed, instead of the defaultops "fix" that was suggested as an alternative; I don't know which is the case, having been flooded at work and unable to update my source tree at home). At a minimum, you could call the generic putpages after uncaching the page. > Follow the VM fault path: at each level, information is added as more is > learned, but not all the information is passed down to the lower levels, > such as faulting VA, fault type, etc. This is I suppose good Information > Hiding policy, but it's bad for my needs. Also the VM tends to not > consult the underlying object for a number of cases, the worst one being > that if a write fault occurs on a read-only page, the VM will tend to > add write access without asking the VFS is that is ok. For an example of > how the VM ought to work, see, e.g. SunOS. Yes, I'm serious. The SunOS VM has a number of scaling and other problems. Even if we totally dismiss SMP, this is still an issue for async I/O, kernel threading, and any actual RealTime work that someone might want to do. 8-(. > Anyway this is a years old discussion I have gone into on this group > about once a year, so if there are archives more detail is in them. Since > Chuck Cranor has basically resolved my problems in Open- and Net-BSD, I'm > not as concerned with FreeBSD VM limitations at this point ... Well, I think you shouldn't abandom FreeBSD. You are doing sexy work, and that certainly benefits the community. There have been a number of changes for the better in the specific areas you outline, which will at least make it possible to do something about them, if it doesn't fix things already (I know the uncache fix isn't there...). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 11:37:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06230 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:37:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06119 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:36:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10960; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:13:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd010951; Thu Mar 5 12:12:59 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA00602; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:12:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803051912.MAA00602@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Disk write caches To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:12:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, remy@synx.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803050722.IAA08153@yedi.iaf.nl> from "Wilko Bulte" at Mar 5, 98 08:22:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I am *specifically* interested in what an FS mounted with soft updates > > would do (as I don't personally have the hardware wherewithall to be > > able to answer the question for myself; my DEC drives don't seem to > > allow me to turn things off). > > What do you want to turn of? And what drives? I might be able to find out > how to 'convince' them Julian's going to do it to some hardware here. What I wanted to turn off was the write cache onboard the disk drive itself. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 11:49:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08315 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:49:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08305 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:49:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01841; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:49:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803051949.OAA01841@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: vm architecture of freebsd. In-Reply-To: <199803051932.MAA02034@usr06.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 5, 98 07:32:43 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:49:34 -0500 (EST) Cc: rminnich@Sarnoff.COM, toor@dyson.iquest.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert said: > > This is no longer true. Now there is an NFS specific putpages (if > my last set of changes was committed, instead of the defaultops > "fix" that was suggested as an alternative; I don't know which is > the case, having been flooded at work and unable to update my > source tree at home). > > At a minimum, you could call the generic putpages after uncaching the > page. > Actually, that isn't even needed to fix the problem, but, oh well!!! I am about ready to test a two line fix. It certainly isn't an architectural problem. I simply did not want to modify something that I couldn't adequately test. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 12:07:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10841 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:07:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10831 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:07:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01931; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:07:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803052007.PAA01931@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: vm architecture of freebsd. In-Reply-To: <199803051949.OAA01841@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 5, 98 02:49:34 pm" To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:07:23 -0500 (EST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, rminnich@Sarnoff.COM, toor@dyson.iquest.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John S. Dyson said: > Terry Lambert said: > > > > This is no longer true. Now there is an NFS specific putpages (if > > my last set of changes was committed, instead of the defaultops > > "fix" that was suggested as an alternative; I don't know which is > > the case, having been flooded at work and unable to update my > > source tree at home). > > > > At a minimum, you could call the generic putpages after uncaching the > > page. > > > Actually, that isn't even needed to fix the problem, but, oh well!!! > I am about ready to test a two line fix. It certainly isn't an > architectural problem. I simply did not want to modify something > that I couldn't adequately test. > Whoops, more than two lines, but still not brain surgery :-). -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 12:09:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11419 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:09:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA11353 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:09:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 707 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 20:15:21 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:15:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Duncan Barclay Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: Wilko Bulte , julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Duncan Barclay wrote: ... > Are you sure you guys want to use different phases of a the same feed? > Remember > all two or three phases come into the building from the same sub-station > down > the same pice of cable. Most comman fault is a digger cutting this > cable taking out all three phases or temp. shorts in the > overheads to the sub-station (auto reset ater a couple of minutes; > usually > from wind blowing the cables together). > > You need feeds from seperate sub-stations. And then snow levels the cables from the power plant, or a flood destroys the dam... I recommend 2 separate UPSs for the two inputs. True HA should be on 48VDC, separate packs, separate feeds. Standard Telco stuff. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 12:10:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11825 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:10:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peedub.muc.de (newpc.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA11768 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:10:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garyj@peedub.muc.de) Received: from peedub.muc.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peedub.muc.de (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA15534 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:11:45 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199803052011.VAA15534@peedub.muc.de> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Reply-To: Gary Jennejohn In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:43:16 +0100." <199803041843.TAA01389@yedi.iaf.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 21:11:45 +0100 From: Gary Jennejohn Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wilko Bulte writes: >> We had that on VAXes with VMS (Not AT&T Unix, and I do not think BSD). > > A couple of years ago while working at Philips Info Systems we had a > SysV2 derivative that could do powerfail/restart (as we called it). > It used some battery backed up RAM, and it was not a PC (M68K cpu). > Having never worked on that kernel I don't know how they did it. > But it worked pretty well. > hey ! I did that while I was at UniSoft (RIP). Glad that _somebody_ thought it was OK. I could probably wake up enough brain cells to say how it worked (it was about 11 years ago). It was one of the more interesting projects I worked on at the Munich office. Spent the longest 3 months of my life in Eindhoven finishing up a port to a 68020 system for Philips. --- Gary Jennejohn Home - garyj@muc.de Work - garyj@fkr.dec.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 12:12:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12537 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:12:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fxp0.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA12475 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:12:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 772 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 1998 20:18:41 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:18:41 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Remy NONNENMACHER Subject: RE: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: karl@mcs.net, grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, blkirk@float.eli.net, jdn@acp.qiv.com, tlambert@primenet.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, sbabkin@dcn.att.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Remy NONNENMACHER wrote: ... > And what about sending all packets to two RDBMS at the same time and > dropping one of the results when it come back?. Instead of having only a > copy, you can also have fault tolerancy since if one machine goes down, > you simply send the result from the other ? (Would probably need clock > synchonisation and on random numbers that can be generated by either > machine and a physical DB copy before starting). Surely their is a lot of > applications that can be forked/merged like this from a network point of > vue. (I remember seeing something about equaly MACed NICS with one > machine > listening the result of the other and the two machine running the same > program (using a lightly synchronised kernel)). That will work too. The idea is to move as much of the redundency to lower and lower layers and make the application as oblivious to these things as possible. Somethines you do that in the name of simplicity, sometimes in the name of sanity; As was mentioned here before, an application cannot differentiate between a slow server and a dead one (not for a while anyway). A computer, with a simple device in it can detect crashing very reliably and very quickly. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 12:26:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14452 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:26:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from att.com (cagw2.att.com [192.128.52.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA14447 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:26:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sbabkin@dcn.att.com) From: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Received: by cagw2.att.com; Thu Mar 5 14:37 EST 1998 Received: from dcn71.dcn.att.com (dcn71.dcn.att.com [135.44.192.112]) by caig2.att.att.com (AT&T/GW-1.0) with ESMTP id OAA02128 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:41:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by dcn71.dcn.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:43:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Which CD writers ? Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:43:34 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I've discovered today that Philips 26XX series are discontinued :-( And HP4020i/6020i that used Philips drive are discontinued too. The question is: which other CD writers are supported ? Are Sony SCSI CD writers supported ? Thanks! -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 12:29:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15010 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:29:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from amsoft.ru (amsoft.ru [194.87.86.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14854 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:27:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from am@amsoft.ru) Received: (from am@localhost) by amsoft.ru (8.8.8/amsoft/1.0) id XAA07179 ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:26:29 +0300 (MSK) From: Andrew Maltsev Message-Id: <199803052026.XAA07179@amsoft.ru> Subject: ATX power management To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:26:28 +0300 (MSK) Cc: am@amsoft.ru (Andrew Maltsev) Organization: AM'soft X-Location: Oryol (http://www.oryol.ru/), Russia X-Phone: +7 086 229 9988 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anybody working on implementing ATX `automatic switching off' and `blocking power off switch' features? If no, is there anybody who can provide me with the pointers to information on how it can be done? I'm interested in attempting to implement that features.. (I'm a bit tired of that `power off' sensor which I'd touched accidently at least two times already :) I'd only found ATX geometry and wiring specification, but the programmatic interface to power/fan/... management is standardized also I expect, is it? Andrew. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 13:17:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20978 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:17:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20972 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:17:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@plutotech.com) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05146; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:17:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803052117.OAA05146@pluto.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Karl Denninger cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:09:43 CST." <19980305120943.00850@mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:14:13 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >My concern for these is as follows: > >1) The devices on the RAID arrays are high-availability required machines > (ie: primary NFS fileservers, News service, and the authentication > database machines). NONE OF THESE can afford to be down or crash. Neither can WCArchive. >2) -CURRENT at present has a reputation for having some trouble, > particularly at the kernel level. I'm running mid-November kernels > and operating system releases on these machines right now due to > this. That release *is* stable in these uses. It should be possible to run CAM on a system of that vintage provided you perform a little porting effort. I'd have to go look at the CVS logs to determine just what you would have to bring into your system in order to run CAM. >Am I asking for major trouble if I up-rev to a recent (like last night) >-CURRENT? I can't say. I don't believe that CAM will contribute to any instability though. >-- >Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin >http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service > | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems >Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS >Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 14:18:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28867 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:18:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28839 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:17:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA04234; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:10:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:10:05 -0500 (EST) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Terry Lambert cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vm architecture of freebsd. In-Reply-To: <199803051932.MAA02034@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here's a specific and I hope interesting question for this list. suppose we have: msync with MS_INVALIDATE msync WITHOUT MS_INVALIDATE can the vm system communicate this request to the underlying VFS as two different types of requests? I am pretty sure it can not. This is 3.0-SMP by the way. in vm_map_clean: if (current->protection & VM_PROT_WRITE) { vm_object_page_clean(object, OFF_TO_IDX(offset), OFF_TO_IDX(offset + size), (syncio||invalidate)?1:0, TRUE); so syncio and invalidate mean ... void vm_object_page_clean(object, start, end, syncio, lockflag) vm_object_t object; vm_pindex_t start; vm_pindex_t end; boolean_t syncio; boolean_t lockflag; so at some point invalidate is used to tell the vnodes underneath to do sync io. But the info as to invalidate is basically lost. This is the type of thing that can make life hard: information of use is disappearing as you walk down the function call tree. It would be nice to keep that info there, right down to the bottom of the food chain. thanks ron Ron Minnich |Java: an operating-system-independent, rminnich@sarnoff.com |architecture-independent programming language (609)-734-3120 |for Windows/95 and Windows/NT on the Pentium ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 14:57:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03771 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:57:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03763 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:57:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26985; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:55:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803052255.OAA26985@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Andrew Maltsev cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATX power management In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 23:26:28 +0300." <199803052026.XAA07179@amsoft.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:55:03 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Anybody working on implementing ATX `automatic switching off' and > `blocking power off switch' features? Not AFAIK, no. > If no, is there anybody who can provide me with the pointers to > information on how it can be done? I'm interested in attempting to > implement that features.. (I'm a bit tired of that `power off' sensor > which I'd touched accidently at least two times already :) APM, but make sure your BIOS is set correctly. > I'd only found ATX geometry and wiring specification, but the > programmatic interface to power/fan/... management is standardized also > I expect, is it? Yup, I do believe so. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 15:12:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06426 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:12:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06420 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:12:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27042; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:07:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803052307.PAA27042@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Ustimenko Semen cc: Mike Smith , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are mbufs aligned or bounded on something? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 16:31:54 +0600." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 15:07:51 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hello! G'day! > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > Unless it explicitly matters to your hardware, you should assume that > > mbuf clusters are aligned to suit the architecture you're running on. > > > > If it *does* matter to your hardware, I would be inclined to suggest > > that you code to handle all situations, and optimise for the case where > > the alignment best suits you. This will greatly improve the > > portability of your code. > > > > It realy touch hardware becouse i pass physical address of > mtod( caddr_t, mbuf) to hardware, and if it cross the PAGE_SIZE, DMA > operation will overwrite some physical address that do not belong to > mbuf data area:( Ah. You should look at the fxp driver to see how this is handled. I suspect that you're actually safe to assume that the data area will not cross a page boundary, but you might want to check. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 16:00:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12023 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:00:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12009 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:00:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA12823; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:59:35 -0800 (PST) To: Wilko Bulte cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD hackers list), rene@tcja.nl (Rene 'Freeze' de Vries), arnoud.venema@ict.nl (Arnoud Venema) Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:24:01 +0100." <199803051924.UAA02461@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 15:59:35 -0800 Message-ID: <12820.889142375@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Actually, a few of us here were also thinking about putting together a "FreeBSD WorldCon" this year - the date would be September 25th and the location would be Amsterdam, Holland. Perhaps we should attempt to merge the two events? Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 16:14:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13755 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:14:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gte.net (1Cust73.tnt1.lafayette.in.da.uu.net [208.254.19.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13737 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:14:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bhlewis@gte.net) Received: from ylana.home.bhl (localhost.home.bhl [127.0.0.1]) by gte.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13234; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:14:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bhlewis@ylana.home.bhl) Message-Id: <199803060014.TAA13234@gte.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Peter van Heusden cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 05 Mar 1998 07:16:09 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:14:00 -0500 From: Benjamin Lewis Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za wrote: > How does one go about writing a program to check if a PPP link is up > or down? I've seen lots of complicated responses to this, so there is probably something inherintly wrong with what I've always done, check for the existence of the /var/spool/lock/LCK..cuaa? file. If there is a possibility that something else is using the serial line, one could check whether the PID in the file matches the PPP process. -Ben -- Benjamin Lewis bhlewis@gte.net -or- bhlewis@purdue.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 16:16:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13896 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:16:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13871 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:16:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@narnia.plutotech.com) Received: (from gibbs@localhost) by narnia.plutotech.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA04833; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:12:59 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:12:59 -0700 (MST) From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Message-Id: <199803060012.RAA04833@narnia.plutotech.com> To: Tom cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.dpt.com/os2.htm Newsgroups: pluto.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971204 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.0-CURRENT (i386)) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Also, it would nice if the DPT driver was actually available in a > released version of FreeBSD first. The 2.2-stable version is great, but > remains uncommitted. > > Tom Last I looked at the DPT driver, it required the same software interrupt hooks that CAM required. I don't think that we can make these changes so close to the 2.2.6 release, but I will merge them in after 2.2.6 is cut. -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 16:19:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14719 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:19:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14711; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:19:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA13137; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:48:56 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA05321; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:48:56 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980306104856.30653@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:48:56 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Wilko Bulte Cc: FreeBSD hackers list , "Rene 'Freeze' de Vries" , Arnoud Venema Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party References: <199803051924.UAA02461@yedi.iaf.nl> <12820.889142375@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <12820.889142375@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 03:59:35PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 March 1998 at 15:59:35 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Actually, a few of us here were also thinking about putting together a > "FreeBSD WorldCon" this year - the date would be September 25th and > the location would be Amsterdam, Holland. Perhaps we should attempt > to merge the two events? Two events? I count one. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 16:41:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18740 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:41:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18707; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:41:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA13178; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:39:59 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD hackers list , "Rene 'Freeze' de Vries" , Arnoud Venema Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:48:56 +1030." <19980306104856.30653@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 16:39:59 -0800 Message-ID: <13175.889144799@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Uh, what? > On Thu, 5 March 1998 at 15:59:35 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Actually, a few of us here were also thinking about putting together a > > "FreeBSD WorldCon" this year - the date would be September 25th and > > the location would be Amsterdam, Holland. Perhaps we should attempt > > to merge the two events? > > Two events? I count one. > > Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 17:17:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22497 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:17:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.netcetera.dk (root@sleipner.netcetera.dk [194.192.207.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22485 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:17:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leifn@image.dk) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.netcetera.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id CAA29655 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 02:17:02 +0100 Received: by swimsuit.swimsuit.roskildebc.dk (0.99.970109) id AA04088; 06 Mar 98 01:20:25 +0100 From: leifn@image.dk (Leif Neland) Date: 05 Mar 98 23:26:58 +0100 Subject: Re: PPP Stuff Message-ID: <51f_9803060120@swimsuit.swimsuit.roskildebc.dk> References: <199803051352.DAA01580@rocksalt.mui.net> <34FEAF60.C1F87216@merrimack.edu> Organization: Fidonet: Swimsuit Safari. Go for it. To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05 Mar 98 14:57:52 Greg Fraize (2:234/49.99) wrote to All regarding Re: PPP Stuff in area "freebsd-hacker" GF> it does connect with the isp..and I can watch the GF> login and password be sent and GF> the isp box logs me on.... GF> the one thing i am not sure on.... GF> is I have my buad rate set at GF> 115200 GF> ..but the modem I am connecting to is a 33.6 GF> .....should I have my buad rate set to 33.6 ? 115200 is just fine. Your modem can compress data, so you'll want to keep the comport at higher rate. As a test, I made a file containing 100.000 "*"'s. I transferred it with a connect 1200 (connect 300 went into fax-mode instead), but the modem could transfer it at 57600; the highest speed the modem accepts. If you surf and get lot of text, it can compress quite a bit, especially mail and news. (Here I disregard the fact that the ppp-layer can compress data before it reaches the comport) Leif Neland leifn@image.dk --- |Fidonet: Leif Neland 2:234/49 |Internet: leifn@image.dk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 17:18:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22556 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:18:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.netcetera.dk (root@sleipner.netcetera.dk [194.192.207.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22478 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:17:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leifn@image.dk) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.netcetera.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id CAA29656 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 02:17:04 +0100 Received: by swimsuit.swimsuit.roskildebc.dk (0.99.970109) id AA04089; 06 Mar 98 01:20:26 +0100 From: leifn@image.dk (Leif Neland) Date: 05 Mar 98 23:33:48 +0100 Subject: Re: Cluster? Message-ID: <520_9803060120@swimsuit.swimsuit.roskildebc.dk> References: Organization: Fidonet: Swimsuit Safari. Go for it. To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05 Mar 98 17:54:20 Tom (2:234/49.99) wrote to All regarding Re: Cluster? in area "freebsd-hacker" >> address spaces of all the others. I agree that DNS has fault tolerant >> capabilities but I wouldn't call them excellent, its annoying to have to >> wait for requests to the primary to time out before the resolver >> library starts hitting on the secondaries. T> Speak for your own resolver. I can't even tell if a primary T> fails. In one case I know, the first timeout is 5 seconds, before trying the secondary. The next timeout is 10, then 20 and finally 40 seconds. Your mileage may vary. Leif Neland leifn@image.dk --- |Fidonet: Leif Neland 2:234/49 |Internet: leifn@image.dk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 17:21:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23574 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:21:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23564 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:21:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13185; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:51:12 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA05482; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:51:11 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980306115111.62161@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:51:11 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Benjamin Lewis , Peter van Heusden Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP References: <199803060014.TAA13234@gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803060014.TAA13234@gte.net>; from Benjamin Lewis on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 07:14:00PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 March 1998 at 19:14:00 -0500, Benjamin Lewis wrote: > > pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za wrote: > >> How does one go about writing a program to check if a PPP link is up >> or down? > > I've seen lots of complicated responses to this, so there is probably > something inherintly wrong with what I've always done, check for the > existence of the /var/spool/lock/LCK..cuaa? file. If there is a possibility > that something else is using the serial line, one could check whether the > PID in the file matches the PPP process. Why not just look at the interface status: $ ifconfig -a lp0: flags=8810 mtu 1500 ep0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 inet 192.109.197.137 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.109.197.255 ether 00:a0:24:37:0d:2b tun0: flags=8151 mtu 1518 inet 192.109.197.137 --> 192.109.197.211 netmask 0xffffff00 This one is up (RUNNING) sl0: flags=c010 mtu 552 ppp0: flags=8051 mtu 1500 inet 139.130.136.133 --> 139.130.136.129 netmask 0xffff0000 This one is up ppp1: flags=8010 mtu 1500 This one is down lo0: flags=8049 mtu 16384 inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000 Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 17:50:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26174 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:50:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA26153 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:50:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15129; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:45:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd015124; Thu Mar 5 17:45:38 1998 Message-ID: <34FF5444.ABD322C@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:41:24 +0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Justin T. Gibbs" CC: Tom , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.dpt.com/os2.htm References: <199803060012.RAA04833@narnia.plutotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > > > Also, it would nice if the DPT driver was actually available in a > > released version of FreeBSD first. The 2.2-stable version is great, but > > remains uncommitted. > > > > Tom > > Last I looked at the DPT driver, it required the same software interrupt > hooks that CAM required. I don't think that we can make these changes > so close to the 2.2.6 release, but I will merge them in after 2.2.6 is > cut. > > -- > Justin > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message the DPT driver for 2.2 (which I have in my tree ready to commit) supplies it's own software interrupt hooks which can be discarded when the CAM stuff is merged in. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 17:58:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28108 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:58:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA28096 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:58:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yAm7L-0004KN-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:40:07 -0800 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:40:05 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Julian Elischer cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.dpt.com/os2.htm In-Reply-To: <34FF5444.ABD322C@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Julian Elischer wrote: > Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > > > > > Also, it would nice if the DPT driver was actually available in a > > > released version of FreeBSD first. The 2.2-stable version is great, but > > > remains uncommitted. > > > > > > Tom > > > > Last I looked at the DPT driver, it required the same software interrupt > > hooks that CAM required. I don't think that we can make these changes > > so close to the 2.2.6 release, but I will merge them in after 2.2.6 is > > cut. > > the DPT driver for 2.2 (which I have in my tree ready to commit) > supplies it's own software interrupt hooks which can be discarded when > the CAM stuff is merged in. That is what I thought. Can those hooks be conditionally compiled to reassure those how are skeptical about the DPT driver? At least the DPT driver can be shipped in 2.2.6 tree then. Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 18:01:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29138 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:01:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29126 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:00:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA13834; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:48:27 GMT (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980306014827.13887@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:48:27 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Benjamin Lewis , Peter van Heusden Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP References: <199803060014.TAA13234@gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199803060014.TAA13234@gte.net>; from Benjamin Lewis on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 07:14:00PM -0500 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 07:14:00PM -0500, Benjamin Lewis wrote: > pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za wrote: > > > How does one go about writing a program to check if a PPP link is up > > or down? > > I've seen lots of complicated responses to this, so there is probably > something inherintly wrong with what I've always done, check for the > existence of the /var/spool/lock/LCK..cuaa? file. If there is a possibility > that something else is using the serial line, one could check whether the > PID in the file matches the PPP process. If you're running a recent(ish) version you've probably got the pppctl program. Here's my ppp-state file (stored in /usr/local/bin) #!/bin/sh # # Report on the state of the PPP link pppctl -v /var/run/ppp quit | grep ^PPP > /dev/null if [ $? -eq 0 ]; then echo Up else echo Down fi N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 19:28:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10915 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:28:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA10876 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:27:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 6812 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Mar 1998 03:35:23 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:35:23 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Tom Subject: Re: http://www.dpt.com/os2.htm Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, "Justin T.Gibbs" , Julian Elischer Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Mar-98 Tom wrote: > > On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Julian Elischer wrote: > >> Justin T. Gibbs wrote: >> > >> > > Also, it would nice if the DPT driver was actually available in a >> > > released version of FreeBSD first. The 2.2-stable version is great, >> > > but >> > > remains uncommitted. >> > > >> > > Tom >> > >> > Last I looked at the DPT driver, it required the same software >> > interrupt >> > hooks that CAM required. I don't think that we can make these changes >> > so close to the 2.2.6 release, but I will merge them in after 2.2.6 is >> > cut. >> >> the DPT driver for 2.2 (which I have in my tree ready to commit) >> supplies it's own software interrupt hooks which can be discarded when >> the CAM stuff is merged in. > > That is what I thought. > > Can those hooks be conditionally compiled to reassure those how are > skeptical about the DPT driver? At least the DPT driver can be shipped > in 2.2.6 tree then. I would like that, as it will get me out of the CD business :-) The changes are very minor and there are enough users around to testify that it does not toast anything. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 19:32:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11381 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:32:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA11332 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:31:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 6856 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Mar 1998 03:40:08 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803052117.OAA05146@pluto.plutotech.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:40:08 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Karl Denninger Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Mar-98 Justin T. Gibbs wrote: >>My concern for these is as follows: >> >>1) The devices on the RAID arrays are high-availability required machines >> (ie: primary NFS fileservers, News service, and the authentication >> database machines). NONE OF THESE can afford to be down or crash. > > Neither can WCArchive. I'll be happy to turn it into a HA server. It will have to run 3.0 though :-) >>2) -CURRENT at present has a reputation for having some trouble, >> particularly at the kernel level. I'm running mid-November kernels >> and operating system releases on these machines right now due to >> this. That release *is* stable in these uses. > > It should be possible to run CAM on a system of that vintage provided you > perform a little porting effort. I'd have to go look at the CVS logs to > determine just what you would have to bring into your system in order > to run CAM. The 15-Dec-97 kernel is very stable. The only problem I am having with last week's kernels is in the soft updates stuff. >>Am I asking for major trouble if I up-rev to a recent (like last night) >>-CURRENT? > > I can't say. I don't believe that CAM will contribute to any instability > though. > >>-- >>Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin >>http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 >>Service >> | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems >>Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL >>ACCOUNTS >>Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no >>cost > > -- > Justin > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 19:35:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12326 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:35:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12257 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:34:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id VAA05598; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:34:44 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id VAA00279; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:34:44 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980305213444.62338@mcs.net> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:34:44 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <199803052117.OAA05146@pluto.plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 07:40:08PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 07:40:08PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > It should be possible to run CAM on a system of that vintage provided you > > perform a little porting effort. I'd have to go look at the CVS logs to > > determine just what you would have to bring into your system in order > > to run CAM. > > The 15-Dec-97 kernel is very stable. The only problem I am having with > last week's kernels is in the soft updates stuff. > > >>Am I asking for major trouble if I up-rev to a recent (like last night) > >>-CURRENT? > > > > I can't say. I don't believe that CAM will contribute to any instability > > though. > > Sincerely Yours, > > Simon Shapiro > Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 Well, John Dyson asked me NOT to upgrade right now... and so far, when it comes to code stability issues, he's been right on the money, so I'll wait a little bit. Speed is nice, but "it works" is a tad bit more important. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 20:04:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17351 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:04:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.91.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17316 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:04:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.4]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.6.10) with SMTP id XAA29173; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:04:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:04:10 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Leif Neland cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cluster? In-Reply-To: <520_9803060120@swimsuit.swimsuit.roskildebc.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 5 Mar 1998, Leif Neland wrote: > At 05 Mar 98 17:54:20 Tom (2:234/49.99) wrote to All regarding Re: Cluster? > in area "freebsd-hacker" > > >> address spaces of all the others. I agree that DNS has fault tolerant > >> capabilities but I wouldn't call them excellent, its annoying to have to > >> wait for requests to the primary to time out before the resolver > >> library starts hitting on the secondaries. > > T> Speak for your own resolver. I can't even tell if a primary > T> fails. > > In one case I know, the first timeout is 5 seconds, before trying the > secondary. > The next timeout is 10, then 20 and finally 40 seconds. Your mileage may vary. However, I believe that the standard resolver library will store which servers respond and which don't, and favor servers that have responded in the past. This is certainly true if it receives a connection refused icmp packet, but I'm not sure about lack of response: (res_send.c): /* * On a 4.3BSD+ machine (client and server, * actually), sending to a nameserver datagram * port with no nameserver will cause an * ICMP port unreachable message to be returned. * If our datagram socket is "connected" to the * server, we get an ECONNREFUSED error on the next * socket operation, and select returns if the * error message is received. We can thus detect * the absence of a nameserver without timing out. * If we have sent queries to at least two servers, * however, we don't want to remain connected, * as we wish to receive answers from the first * server to respond. */ The badns flag for that particular name server is set so that we avoid it in the future. A quick scan of the code did not turn up a badns bit toggle on timeout, as I think it is assumed that server disappearance may be transient, or the result of high load? I don't believe code to shift down precedence of a server exists in the v4.9.x BIND code, but it would certainly be a useful addition. I have not checked the Bind 8 code, however. Robert N Watson Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 20:15:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20185 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:15:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20170 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:15:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13344 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:44:54 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA06299; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:44:53 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980306144453.36162@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:44:53 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: CD burners: recommendations? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm considering getting a CD-ROM burner. Can anybody offer recommendations, war stories or comments? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 20:21:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20885 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:21:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.91.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20875 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:21:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA08976; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:17:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:17:13 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Berlin To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: CD burners: recommendations? In-Reply-To: <19980306144453.36162@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG MP6200s from Ricoh. I've gotten that thing to work on every OS known to man. And some known only to Aliens (IE Linux for the 3BX$#&@!*#&!@# (it's unpronouncable in your hoo-man languages)) --DAn On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > I'm considering getting a CD-ROM burner. Can anybody offer > recommendations, war stories or comments? > > Greg > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 20:36:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22961 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:36:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iclub.nsu.ru (iclub.nsu.ru [193.124.222.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22935 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:36:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from semen@iclub.nsu.ru) Received: from localhost (semen@localhost) by iclub.nsu.ru (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA05128; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:37:28 +0600 (NS) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:37:28 +0600 (NS) From: Ustimenko Semen To: Mike Smith cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are mbufs aligned or bounded on something? In-Reply-To: <199803052307.PAA27042@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > Ah. You should look at the fxp driver to see how this is handled. I > suspect that you're actually safe to assume that the data area will not > cross a page boundary, but you might want to check. > I've suspected the same:) And it works. But it should be better to read this somewhere. By the way: if i need aligned memory, should i use contigmalloc(), or better to use malloc, and align block by hands? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 21:26:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28238 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:26:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28165 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:25:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-218.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.218]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA27188 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:16:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA10600 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:24:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803052324.RAA10600@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? In-reply-to: Message from Amancio Hasty of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:14:50 PST." <199803040014.QAA01499@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 17:24:40 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amancio Hasty writes: > > Wandering , if we can get a grant from the goverment to support the SMP > project or to support FreeBSD ? I think you'd stand a better chance with the US Gov if you sold your pitch as a free and secure replacement for Windows. NT "security" was pitched hard and only now is the true situation being realized. Problem is to replace Windows you would also have to replace Word and Excel. These days government computers are essentially Microsoft Office platforms, and Microsoft Office is essentially the OS. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 22:02:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04510 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:02:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04286 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:02:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199803060602.WAA04286@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA172044156; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:02:36 +1100 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:02:36 +1100 (EDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803052324.RAA10600@nospam.hiwaay.net> from "David Kelly" at Mar 5, 98 05:24:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In some mail from David Kelly, sie said: > > Amancio Hasty writes: > > > > Wandering , if we can get a grant from the goverment to support the SMP > > project or to support FreeBSD ? > > I think you'd stand a better chance with the US Gov if you sold your > pitch as a free and secure replacement for Windows. NT "security" was > pitched hard and only now is the true situation being realized. > > Problem is to replace Windows you would also have to replace Word and > Excel. These days government computers are essentially Microsoft Office > platforms, and Microsoft Office is essentially the OS. Hmm, thre are products, now available such as Applix and StarOffice for some unix platforms...maybe freebsd should be one of those / To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 22:40:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11942 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:40:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11930 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:40:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA28253; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:36:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803060636.WAA28253@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Darren Reed cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:02:36 +1100." <199803060602.WAA04286@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:36:53 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Hmm, thre are products, now available such as Applix and StarOffice for > some unix platforms...maybe freebsd should be one of those / Actually, if what you want is a really nice wordprocessor, WordPerfect (which runs on FreeBSD) is _very_ nice. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 22:49:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14554 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:49:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14526 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:49:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13889; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 03:49:49 -0300 (EST) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199803060649.DAA13889@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re (Solved) dump bug or file system problem ? In-Reply-To: From jonny at "Mar 4, 98 03:57:51 pm" To: jonny@coppe.ufrj.br (jonny) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 03:49:49 -0300 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Answering myself, I think I found the problem. I had a bad hardware for some time (motherboard), and the system was frequently panicing. I have even once to remove an inode manually (clri), for fsck could not fix the file system. Now I found this: gaia::jonny [521] ls -lisa /usr/bin/ranlib 8050 16 -r-xr-xr-x 1 bin bin 1125899906859008 Feb 16 16:58 /usr/bin/ranlib I am really amazed that ls could even list a file with this size. :) But dump could not, and gave me that negative numbers. (Should we have a 64 bit aware dump now ? :) ). #define quoting(jonny) // Hi, // // I've sent this to -questions (and got no answer), but after reading // the sources of dump, I think it's more a -hackers question. // // I'm right now trying to make a dump of my file system, but it seems // to never end (dumping to /dev/null to make sure it's not a tape // problem): // // gaia::jonny [503] dump 0fa /dev/null /usr // DUMP: Date of this level 0 dump: Wed Mar 4 13:57:54 1998 // DUMP: Date of last level 0 dump: the epoch // DUMP: Dumping /dev/rsd0f (/usr) to /dev/null // DUMP: mapping (Pass I) [regular files] // DUMP: mapping (Pass II) [directories] // DUMP: estimated 1545215 tape blocks. // DUMP: dumping (Pass III) [directories] // DUMP: 27.30% done, finished in 0:13 // DUMP: 57.87% done, finished in 0:07 // DUMP: 88.27% done, finished in 0:01 // DUMP: 119.27% done, finished in 0:-3 // DUMP: 148.05% done, finished in 0:-8 // DUMP: 176.90% done, finished in 0:-13 // DUMP: 208.32% done, finished in 0:-18 // DUMP: 240.57% done, finished in 0:-23 // DUMP: 270.01% done, finished in 0:-28 // DUMP: 300.63% done, finished in 0:-33 // DUMP: 332.25% done, finished in 0:-38 // DUMP: 363.33% done, finished in 0:-43 // DUMP: 393.50% done, finished in 0:-48 // DUMP: 418.82% done, finished in 0:-53 // DUMP: 445.49% done, finished in 0:-58 // DUMP: 473.04% done, finished in -1:-3 // DUMP: 502.15% done, finished in -1:-8 // DUMP: 530.49% done, finished in -1:-13 // DUMP: 558.39% done, finished in -1:-17 // (and continues...) // // The first think I thought was a problem with integer length in dump, // but I've never had this before and could not find a problem like that // in dump sources. It seems to be able to handle file systems with 2^41 // bytes, and that is definitely not my case. And not all of them beeing // directories. // // Other possibility is a file system problem. I've had problems with // it in the last weeks, with panic "freeing a free frag" or something // like that. At this time, fsck finds no error, though. // // I would love any hint that could help me solving this problem. This // is what df reports on this file system: // // Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity iused ifree %iused Mounted on // /dev/sd0f 1822017 1486754 189502 89% 70480 374958 16% /usr // // Thanks in advance, // // Jonny // // -- // Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br // +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br // Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI // PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 // Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 22:59:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17073 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:59:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17013 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:59:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA24313; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:54:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803060654.WAA24313@implode.root.com> To: Ustimenko Semen cc: Mike Smith , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are mbufs aligned or bounded on something? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:37:28 +0600." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:54:13 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >By the way: if i need aligned memory, should i use contigmalloc(), or >better to use malloc, and align block by hands? All memory returned by malloc() is guaranteed to be power of two aligned and won't span a page boundry if <= a page in size; there are many places in the kernel that rely on this. If you need a large chunk of memory that must be physically contiguous, then use contigmalloc(). -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 23:06:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19978 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:06:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA19855 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:05:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13509; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:35:49 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA07228; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:35:47 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980306173547.64725@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:35:47 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Karl Denninger , Niall Smart Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980305125911.15755@mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980305125911.15755@mcs.net>; from Karl Denninger on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 12:59:11PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 March 1998 at 12:59:11 -0600, Karl Denninger wrote: > On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 06:56:00PM +0000, Niall Smart wrote: >> On Mar 5, 12:09pm, Karl Denninger wrote: >>> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... >>> >>> 1) The devices on the RAID arrays are high-availability required machines >>> (ie: primary NFS fileservers, News service, and the authentication >>> database machines). NONE OF THESE can afford to be down or crash. >> >> "NONE OF THESE"? Ever heard of Stratus Computer Corporation? >> >> Niall > > Actually, if I didn't care about the cost, Tandem makes some very good > fault-tolerant machines. Of course the problem is "if you don't care about > the cost". > > Reality is that building something 100% fail-proof is just not economically > justified in the ISP business. In other lines of work, it is. > > However, being able to swap a CPU in 5 minutes (the only non-redundant > component) Are you talking about Tandem? CPUs have always been redundant. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 23:14:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23378 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:14:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA23287; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:14:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA00749 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:14:06 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA09048; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:09:06 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803060709.IAA09048@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party In-Reply-To: <13175.889144799@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 5, 98 04:39:59 pm" To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:09:06 +0100 (MET) Cc: grog@lemis.com, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote... > Uh, what? Like in Amsterdam != Arnhem ... > > On Thu, 5 March 1998 at 15:59:35 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Actually, a few of us here were also thinking about putting together a > > > "FreeBSD WorldCon" this year - the date would be September 25th and > > > the location would be Amsterdam, Holland. Perhaps we should attempt > > > to merge the two events? > > > > Two events? I count one. > > > > Greg > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 23:20:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25876 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:20:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25662; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:19:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.2/nospam) with UUCP id IAA25473; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:19:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.8/keltia-2.13/nospam) id IAA10995; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:15:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980306081544.A10947@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:15:44 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Wilko Bulte Cc: FreeBSD hackers list , "Rene 'Freeze' de Vries" , Arnoud Venema Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party Mail-Followup-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD hackers list , Rene 'Freeze' de Vries , Arnoud Venema References: <199803051924.UAA02461@yedi.iaf.nl> <12820.889142375@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90.4i In-Reply-To: <12820.889142375@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 03:59:35PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4103 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Jordan K. Hubbard: > Actually, a few of us here were also thinking about putting together a > "FreeBSD WorldCon" this year - the date would be September 25th and > the location would be Amsterdam, Holland. Perhaps we should attempt > to merge the two events? That would be great. While we're on the subject of meeting together, Anyone going to the New Orleans Conference in June ? I plan to go there... (I just can't miss a FREENIX-labelled conference while having a .freenix.fr address :-)) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 23:25:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27957 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:25:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27837; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:25:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA23464; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:24:36 -0800 (PST) To: Wilko Bulte cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG (Jordan K. Hubbard), grog@lemis.com, FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 08:09:06 +0100." <199803060709.IAA09048@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 23:24:36 -0800 Message-ID: <23460.889169076@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Right, making two events rather than one. What's so confusing about that? Should I start over? :-) Jordan > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote... > > Uh, what? > > Like in Amsterdam != Arnhem ... > > > > On Thu, 5 March 1998 at 15:59:35 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > Actually, a few of us here were also thinking about putting together a > > > > "FreeBSD WorldCon" this year - the date would be September 25th and > > > > the location would be Amsterdam, Holland. Perhaps we should attempt > > > > to merge the two events? > > > > > > Two events? I count one. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > > > _ ______________________________________________________________________ > | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko > |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' > --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 23:26:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28269 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:26:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28189; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:26:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA23488; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:25:27 -0800 (PST) To: Ollivier Robert cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD hackers list , "Rene 'Freeze' de Vries" , Arnoud Venema Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 08:15:44 +0100." <19980306081544.A10947@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 23:25:27 -0800 Message-ID: <23485.889169127@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > That would be great. While we're on the subject of meeting together, Anyone > going to the New Orleans Conference in June ? I plan to go there... (I just Quite a few of us are going. In fact, I think that there will be more core team members in New Orleans this year than have ever gotten together in one place. :) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 23:39:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02063 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:39:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zwei.siemens.at (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA01805 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:38:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at) Received: from ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at (root@firix [10.1.143.100]) by zwei.siemens.at with ESMTP id IAA07108; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:31:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from ws6423.gud.siemens.at (ws6423-f.gud.siemens.co.at) by ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at with ESMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA178539371; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:29:31 +0100 Received: by ws6423.gud.siemens.at (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA29905; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:29:58 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:29:58 +0100 From: lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at (marino.ladavac@siemens.at) Message-Id: <199803060729.IAA29905@ws6423.gud.siemens.at> To: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, shimon@simon-shapiro.org Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: zprwN2/EZSNXNTAwKidoRQ== Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 5 21:12:11 MET 1998 > X-Priority: 3 (Normal) > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:15:21 -0800 (PST) > From: Simon Shapiro > To: Duncan Barclay > Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... > Cc: Wilko Bulte , julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > On 05-Mar-98 Duncan Barclay wrote: > ... > > > Are you sure you guys want to use different phases of a the same feed? > > Remember > > all two or three phases come into the building from the same sub-station > > down > > the same pice of cable. Most comman fault is a digger cutting this > > cable taking out all three phases or temp. shorts in the > > overheads to the sub-station (auto reset ater a couple of minutes; > > usually > > from wind blowing the cables together). > > > > You need feeds from seperate sub-stations. > > And then snow levels the cables from the power plant, or a flood destroys > the dam... I recommend 2 separate UPSs for the two inputs. True HA should > be on 48VDC, separate packs, separate feeds. Standard Telco stuff. And then you find yourself in the middle of a nuclear blast... Honestly, don't you think you're overdoing it a bit here. I mean, we're still talking ISP, right? If the power goes, your modems are dead as well. And if you want to UPS that, you're using motor-generator pairs with Diesel backup and don't really care about batteries (a 30 year old Diesel still kicks in within a second and if your power supply cannot stand a few second intermittent failure then you have some seriously underdimensioned power supplies). /Marino > > ---------- > > > Sincerely Yours, > > Simon Shapiro > Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 5 23:54:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06559 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:54:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA06522; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:54:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13556; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:23:58 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA07481; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:23:58 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980306182358.56365@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:23:58 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Wilko Bulte Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party References: <199803060709.IAA09048@yedi.iaf.nl> <23460.889169076@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <23460.889169076@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 11:24:36PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG (after rearrangement) On Thu, 5 March 1998 at 23:24:36 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote... >>>> On Thu, 5 March 1998 at 15:59:35 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>>>> Actually, a few of us here were also thinking about putting together a >>>>> "FreeBSD WorldCon" this year - the date would be September 25th and >>>>> the location would be Amsterdam, Holland. Perhaps we should attempt >>>>> to merge the two events? >>>> >>>> Two events? I count one. >>> Uh, what? >> >> Like in Amsterdam != Arnhem ... > > Right, making two events rather than one. What's so confusing about that? > Should I start over? :-) I think you need to make it clear that the hacker party and the "FreeBSD WorldCon" are not the same thing. With the supplied documentation, that wasn't obvious. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 00:00:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08244 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:00:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA08192; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:59:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA23872; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:59:03 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 18:23:58 +1030." <19980306182358.56365@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 23:59:03 -0800 Message-ID: <23869.889171143@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think you need to make it clear that the hacker party and the > "FreeBSD WorldCon" are not the same thing. With the supplied > documentation, that wasn't obvious. Erm, they were never the same thing - who said they were? What I was trying to suggest here was the possibility of merging the two events into one since the locales are already rather close and it seems silly to go do Arnhem one month and then return to Amsterdamn on another month. :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 00:43:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15668 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:43:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zwei.siemens.at (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15648; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:43:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at) Received: from ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at (root@firix [10.1.143.100]) by zwei.siemens.at with ESMTP id JAA10846; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:42:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from ws6423.gud.siemens.at (ws6423-f.gud.siemens.co.at) by ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at with ESMTP (1.40.112.8/16.2) id AA186723611; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:40:12 +0100 Received: by ws6423.gud.siemens.at (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA00667; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:40:38 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:40:38 +0100 From: lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at (marino.ladavac@siemens.at) Message-Id: <199803060840.JAA00667@ws6423.gud.siemens.at> To: grog@lemis.com, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: OQEdWUMmPSHb74hPR+r1Ig== Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG BTW, any chance that FreeBSD will have its booth at the upcoming CeBIT? If so, where, and will you have FreeBSD CR-ROMs for sale? Thanks, /Marino To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 00:45:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA16408 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:45:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA16334; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:45:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA00758 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:14:07 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id HAA08950; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:59:21 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803060659.HAA08950@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party In-Reply-To: <12820.889142375@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 5, 98 03:59:35 pm" To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:59:21 +0100 (MET) Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote... > Actually, a few of us here were also thinking about putting together a > "FreeBSD WorldCon" this year - the date would be September 25th and > the location would be Amsterdam, Holland. Perhaps we should attempt > to merge the two events? I suppose that would make very good sense. Didn't know that was in the works.... Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 04:48:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA12411 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:48:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from our.domaintje.com (our.domaintje.com [194.178.252.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA12371; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:47:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@our.domaintje.com) Received: from our.domaintje.com ([IPv6:::ffff:194.178.252.9] EHLO our.domaintje.com ident: IDENT-NONSENSE [port 48140]) by our.domaintje.com with ESMTP id <8340-180>; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:48:22 +0100 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at (marino.ladavac@siemens.at), grog@lemis.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 04:23:02 PST." <25165.889186982@time.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 13:48:15 +0100 From: Frank Ederveen Message-Id: <19980306124822Z8340-180+150@our.domaintje.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mr. Jordan wrote: >We stopped going to CeBIT when the organizers forbade us from selling >CDROMs, something which used to basically pay for going to the show. This might be a difficult issue, but did you consider getting more sponsorship from companies yet? I looked at the website and there aren't too many sponsors listed. Not as many as I would expect atleast. I have talked to some people here about making a small budget for sponsoring of 'free' projects which we find very usefull like FreeBSD, Squid, Diablo, Apache, etc. and I don't think it would be impossible. There must be plenty of other happy users who might be willing to chip in a bit. Escpecially if that would improve support for things like SMP and RAID; things needed for larger machines. Of course how to spend the money would be up to you people. There was some discussion earlier about getting someone to do the less fun bits for which it's hard to find volunteers? Just a thought, FrankE To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 05:02:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14471 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:02:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA14454; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:02:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA00364; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:00:58 -0800 (PST) To: Frank Ederveen cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at (marino.ladavac@siemens.at), grog@lemis.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 13:48:15 +0100." <19980306124822Z8340-180+150@our.domaintje.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 05:00:58 -0800 Message-ID: <361.889189258@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Mr. Jordan wrote: > >We stopped going to CeBIT when the organizers forbade us from selling > >CDROMs, something which used to basically pay for going to the show. > >This might be a difficult issue, but did you consider getting more sponsorship >from companies yet? I looked at the website and there aren't too many sponsors >listed. Not as many as I would expect atleast. Erm, let's not confuse Walnut Creek CDROM and the FreeBSD Project here. It's WC which has elected to no longer attend CeBIT. :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 05:02:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14657 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:02:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA14536 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:02:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hans@news.IAEhv.nl) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 15125 on Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:02:17 GMT; id NAA15125 efrom: hans; eto: UNKNOWN Received: by truk.brandinnovators.com (8.7.5/BI96070101) for id NAA22892; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:56:33 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199803061256.NAA22892@truk.brandinnovators.com> From: hans@brandinnovators.com (Hans Zuidam) Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... To: garyj@muc.de Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:56:33 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199803052011.VAA15534@peedub.muc.de> from Gary Jennejohn at "Mar 5, 98 09:11:45 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Gary Jennejohn wrote: > Spent the longest 3 months of my life in Eindhoven finishing up a port > to a 68020 system for Philips. Wasn't that the PG2100 with the two huge gate arrays :-)? Hans -- H. Zuidam E-Mail: hans@brandinnovators.com Brand Innovators B.V. P-Mail: P.O. Box 1377 de Pinckart 54 5602 BJ Eindhoven, The Netherlands 5674 CC Nuenen Tel. +31 40 2631134, Fax. +31 40 2831138 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 05:24:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA18347 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:24:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from omnix.net (omnix.net [194.183.217.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA18342 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:24:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from didier@omnix.net) Received: from localhost (didier@localhost) by omnix.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01837; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:43:27 GMT (envelope-from didier@omnix.net) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:43:27 +0100 (CET) From: Didier Derny To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: CD burners: recommendations? In-Reply-To: <19980306144453.36162@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: I bought a Yamaha CRW4260t recently, I've not been able to use it with the software I found on the FreeBSD cdrom but I'm writing a program to write a single track. (actually, it write the tracks but there is a problem a the end FreeBSD can mount and use the cd produced but Win95 Refuse it. this problem should be fixed in a few days) I like the CRW4260 for: 2Mb of memory it's using the MMC command 6X read, 4X write CDR, 2X write CDE > > I'm considering getting a CD-ROM burner. Can anybody offer > recommendations, war stories or comments? > > Greg > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -- Didier Derny didier@omnix.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 05:54:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA23078 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:54:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from att.com (cagw2.att.com [192.128.52.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA23066 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:54:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sbabkin@dcn.att.com) From: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Received: by cagw2.att.com; Fri Mar 6 08:50 EST 1998 Received: from dcn71.dcn.att.com (dcn71.dcn.att.com [135.44.192.112]) by caig2.att.att.com (AT&T/GW-1.0) with ESMTP id IAA29710 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by dcn71.dcn.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:56:14 -0500 Message-ID: To: grog@lemis.com, root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: CD burners: recommendations? Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:56:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > ---------- > From: Daniel Berlin[SMTP:root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu] > > MP6200s from Ricoh. > I've gotten that thing to work on every OS known to man. > And some known only to Aliens (IE Linux for the 3BX$#&@!*#&!@# (it's > unpronouncable in your hoo-man languages)) > How difficult is to make it work with FreeBSD ? -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 06:12:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26830 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:12:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frontier.stpp.soft.net ([206.102.1.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA26748; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:12:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mapte@frontier-soft.com) Received: from 206.102.1.165 by frontier.stpp.soft.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id GB4RBSXK; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:48:17 +0530 Received: by TORRENT with Microsoft Mail id <01BD4937.7B725000@TORRENT>; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:38:47 +0530 Message-ID: <01BD4937.7B725000@TORRENT> From: Manish Apte To: "'FreeBSDQuestions'" Cc: "'FreeBSD-Hackers'" , "'Greg Lehey'" Subject: FW: ISO/OSI stack support on FreeBSD Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:38:43 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----Original Message----- From: Manish Apte [SMTP:mapte@frontier-soft.com] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 1998 6:16 PM To: 'FreeBSDQuestions' Subject: ISO/OSI stack support on FreeBSD Hi, I am currently using FreeBSD v2.2.2 on i386. While understanding the OS build procedure I realized that FreeBSD has OSI support but it is not shipped with the distribution/sources because of 'lack of interest' (I found this mentioned in the file "/usr/src/sys/i386/conf/LINT"). I am interested in getting the ISO/OSI related sources (/usr/src/sys/netiso directory I presume, possibly with other files) so that I could build a kernel with OSI stack support in it. Is it possible to get the missing OSI stack related files ? If yes how ? Regards Manish mapte@frontier-soft.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 06:29:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00490 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:29:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iworks.InterWorks.org (deischen@iworks.interworks.org [128.255.18.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA00378; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:29:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org) Received: (from deischen@localhost) by iworks.InterWorks.org (8.8.7/) id IAA23800; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:34:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803061434.IAA23800@iworks.InterWorks.org> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:34:41 -0600 (CST) From: "Daniel M. Eischen" To: grog@lemis.com, owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu Subject: RE: CD burners: recommendations? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > MP6200s from Ricoh. > > I've gotten that thing to work on every OS known to man. > > And some known only to Aliens (IE Linux for the 3BX$#&@!*#&!@# (it's > > unpronouncable in your hoo-man languages)) > > How difficult is to make it work with FreeBSD ? FYI, I was unable to get the SCSI specs for that CD-ROM from Ricoh. They wanted me to sign an NDA. Although, if there is Linux support for it, someone must have figured out how to use it. Dan Eischen deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org (Who owns an HP SureStore 6020 which works fine with FreeBSD :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 08:37:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14596 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:37:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.91.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA14576; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:37:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA18092; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:33:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:33:20 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Berlin To: "Daniel M. Eischen" cc: grog@lemis.com, owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: CD burners: recommendations? In-Reply-To: <199803061434.IAA23800@iworks.InterWorks.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Daniel M. Eischen wrote: Well, here's the trick. Either A. Get them from a company that OEM's the drive and releases it themselves. Sometimes they are dumb enough not to make you sign NDA's B. Why do you need the specs to write code for it? I can get you the programming info you need if need be, but doesn't cdwrite use the scsi 3 mmc generic driver? > > FYI, I was unable to get the SCSI specs for that CD-ROM > from Ricoh. They wanted me to sign an NDA. > > Although, if there is Linux support for it, someone must > have figured out how to use it. > > Dan Eischen > deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org > > (Who owns an HP SureStore 6020 which works fine with FreeBSD :) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 09:23:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18987 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:23:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA18643 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:20:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yB0WC-0004tc-00; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:02:44 -0800 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:02:41 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Manish Apte cc: "'FreeBSD-Hackers'" , "'Greg Lehey'" Subject: Re: FW: ISO/OSI stack support on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <01BD4937.7B725000@TORRENT> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Manish Apte wrote: > Hi, > > I am currently using FreeBSD v2.2.2 on i386. > > While understanding the OS build procedure I realized that FreeBSD > has OSI support but it is not shipped with the distribution/sources because > of 'lack of interest' (I found this mentioned in the file "/usr/src/sys/i386/conf/LINT"). > > I am interested in getting the ISO/OSI related sources (/usr/src/sys/netiso directory > I presume, possibly with other files) so that I could build a kernel with OSI stack support in it. > > Is it possible to get the missing OSI stack related files ? If yes how ? I belive the OSI files are in the CVS attic. Read the CVS info in the handbook. Also, OSI support doesn't actually work, so you will need to fix it after you get it. Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 10:01:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24516 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:01:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA24490 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:01:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 13313 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Mar 1998 18:02:52 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803060729.IAA29905@ws6423.gud.siemens.at> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:02:52 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: (marino.ladavac@siemens.at) Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Mar-98 marino.ladavac@siemens.at wrote: ... > Honestly, don't you think you're overdoing it a bit here. I mean, we're > still talking ISP, right? If the power goes, your modems are dead as > well. Nope. There are ISPs and there are ISPs. All the larger ones I visit are taking their availability very seriously. Many are already on 48VDC. Many co-locate equipment in NAPs and switching centers, which comply with Telco standards. Consifer a small ISP with, say 5,000 accounts which loses power during ruch hour. Can you count the number of support calls? Consider a web server with 2,000 virtual servers. Many used for OLTP, thus directly generating revenue. If I had my business run on such a server, I sure would demand it is imunne to power glitches. I found FreeBSD being seriously deployed, or considered for deployment serving 5,000 accounts and up. All the way to 200,000 account (takes more than 1 FreeBSD machine to do that :-). > And if you want to UPS that, you're using motor-generator pairs with > Diesel > backup and don't really care about batteries (a 30 year old Diesel still > kicks in within a second and if your power supply cannot stand a few > second > intermittent failure then you have some seriously underdimensioned power > supplies). Wrong again. Diesel generators have a 15-180 seconds switch over time. You use the diesels to feed the battery chargers. The battery packs are impressive. If you are in the Portland Oregon area, call me and I'll take you to a small switching center. Fascinating to see. There ARE many ISPs who are still hacking it. A lump of PCs, SPARCS, and whathaveyou on picnic tables and Sportster modems stacked on each other (Hey, I ran my local ISP service that way :-), etc. But they will either change or disappear as the role Internet plays in our life. Internet, in this context is an alias to a TCP/IP network, public, private, or otherwise. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 10:23:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27620 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:23:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bbnplanet.com (cam-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com [199.94.215.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27613 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:23:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from moncrg@bt340707.res.ray.com) Received: from gatekeeper.ray.com (gatekeeper.ray.com [138.125.162.1]) by bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17442; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (mailer@localhost) by gatekeeper.ray.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24014; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:52:38 -0500 Received: from bt340707.res.ray.com/138.125.142.35() by gatekeeper.ray.com id sma.889206725.022575; Fri Mar 6 12:52:05 1998 Received: (from moncrg@localhost) by bt340707.res.ray.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00141; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:49:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from moncrg) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:49:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803061749.MAA00141@bt340707.res.ray.com> From: "Gregory D. Moncreaff" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Manish Apte Cc: "'FreeBSD-Hackers'" , "'Greg Lehey'" Subject: FW: ISO/OSI stack support on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <01BD4937.7B725000@TORRENT> References: <01BD4937.7B725000@TORRENT> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG you could probably get it from cvs... you might also want to look at net/open bsd as there code went through some cleanup after the freebsd code was attic'd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 11:30:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07329 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:30:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from plunger.gdeb.com (plunger.gdeb.com [153.11.11.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07060 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:30:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org) Received: from clcrtr.clc.gdeb.com ([153.11.109.11]) by plunger.gdeb.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/CSC-E_1.8) id AA050151936; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:18:56 -0500 Received: from clcrtr.clc.gdeb.com (clcrtr [153.11.109.129]) by clcrtr.clc.gdeb.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA23131; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:24:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <35004D88.41C67EA6@iworks.InterWorks.org> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 14:24:56 -0500 From: "Daniel M. Eischen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE i386) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu Cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: CD burners: recommendations? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, here's the trick. > Either > A. Get them from a company that OEM's the drive and releases it > themselves. Sometimes they are dumb enough not to make you sign NDA's Got any pointers? > B. Why do you need the specs to write code for it? I can get you the > programming info you need if need be, but doesn't cdwrite use the scsi 3 > mmc generic driver? I wanted to be able to use wormcontrol(8). That would mean adding the necesary code to the worm driver. Dan Eischen deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 11:50:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14049 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:50:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.91.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA13989 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:50:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA23989; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:46:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:46:19 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Berlin To: "Daniel M. Eischen" cc: grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: CD burners: recommendations? In-Reply-To: <35004D88.41C67EA6@iworks.InterWorks.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Daniel M. Eischen wrote: > > Well, here's the trick. > > Either > > A. Get them from a company that OEM's the drive and releases it > > themselves. Sometimes they are dumb enough not to make you sign NDA's > > Got any pointers? here's a great one ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix/cdrecord/alpha yes get the latest alpha, also read the README.xxxBSD file and you should be able to get what you want. > > > B. Why do you need the specs to write code for it? I can get you the > > programming info you need if need be, but doesn't cdwrite use the scsi 3 > > mmc generic driver? > > I wanted to be able to use wormcontrol(8). That would mean adding the > necesary code to the worm driver. > > Dan Eischen > deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 11:50:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14050 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:50:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14005 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:50:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA08711 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd008704; Fri Mar 6 11:46:27 1998 Message-ID: <35005195.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 11:42:13 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Fwd: DPT for 2.2 testers needed!] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------446B9B3D2781E494167EB0E7" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------446B9B3D2781E494167EB0E7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought I sent this off a day ago but apparently I misdirected it... here is its again. --------------446B9B3D2781E494167EB0E7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <34FF5F09.500F9F30@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:27:21 +0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@, freebsd.org Subject: DPT for 2.2 testers needed! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have the DPT driver from -current merged to 2.2 but I can't test it. are there any DPT-owning users with 2.2.x based systems who are able to test the resultant tree? julian --------------446B9B3D2781E494167EB0E7-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 12:31:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20381 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:31:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA20369 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:31:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@sag.space.lockheed.com) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA24099; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:30:38 -0800 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:30:38 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Handy To: "Daniel M. Eischen" Cc: root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu, grog@lemis.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: CD burners: recommendations? In-Reply-To: <35004D88.41C67EA6@iworks.InterWorks.org> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> B. Why do you need the specs to write code for it? I can get you the >> programming info you need if need be, but doesn't cdwrite use the scsi 3 >> mmc generic driver? > >I wanted to be able to use wormcontrol(8). That would mean adding the >necesary code to the worm driver. Speaking from the standpoint of a clueless hacker, I've done this and it's not that bad. Figure out how to make it probe as a worm drive, and if it uses the same commands as either the HP or the Plasmon, you're golden. If you've suddenly discovered a new drive that doesn't cooperate though, it becomes more difficult. (Also I guess I don't speak for the eide drives.) Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 13:18:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26316 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:18:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isbalham.ist.co.uk (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26299 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:18:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham.ist.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.4) with UUCP id VAA03996; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:17:25 GMT Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:08:26 GMT X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199803060729.IAA29905@ws6423.gud.siemens.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:08:45 +0000 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, (marino.ladavac@siemens.at) From: Bob Bishop Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 6:02 pm +0000 6/3/98, Simon Shapiro wrote: >Wrong again. Diesel generators have a 15-180 seconds switch over time. True. It's also not widely realised that they aren't awfully reliable. They fail to start one time in N, regardless of how often you start them. N used to be about 15 last time I had anything much to do with them. -- Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 13:37:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28441 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:37:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28377 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:37:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA04544; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:37:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA28712; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:37:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:37:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199803062137.OAA28712@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Bob Bishop Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, (marino.ladavac@siemens.at) , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: References: <199803060729.IAA29905@ws6423.gud.siemens.at> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >Wrong again. Diesel generators have a 15-180 seconds switch over time. > > True. It's also not widely realised that they aren't awfully reliable. They > fail to start one time in N, regardless of how often you start them. N used > to be about 15 last time I had anything much to do with them. Actually, if you keep them warm they start pretty reliably. My dad does some work for a local radio station, and they've keep warm oil pumping through it *all* the time, and keep the room where it's housed warm. (That's pretty easy to do considering the amount of heat the 100KW transmitter puts out. :) They haven't had a failure yet (since they started doing that) at the remote site, but they are also very careful about doing regular maintenance on it. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 14:41:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05565 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:41:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.31.78.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05521 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:41:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19734; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:40:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:40:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Bob Bishop cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Bob Bishop wrote: > True. It's also not widely realised that they aren't awfully reliable. They > fail to start one time in N, regardless of how often you start them. N used > to be about 15 last time I had anything much to do with them. They don't have to be this way. You'll need to do a couple of things though... 1. Install a good block heater that can keep the engine block at a temperature between 80 and 120 degrees F. 2. Install an oil heater "". 3. Install an electric oil pump that can provide 20 to 60 PSI of pressure. (this should switch on 30 seconds or so before the engine is started.) (You should be running synthetic oil right?) 4. Install several oversize oil filters so you don't have too much back pressure at the filter. 5. Install a coolant pump that can keep the coolant circulating at about 5 to 10 psi. (this should switch on 10 seconds or so before the engine is started.) 6. Install a battery bank to power your startup pumps. (You should already have this for your starter unless you have an inertial starter. If you have an inertial starter, you should probably have batteries for the flywheel moter to spin the flywheel up in a no power situation.) 7. Inspect your glo-plugs after every run cycle. Clean or change if needed. 8. If you begin a run cycle, run under load for no less than 4 hours. 9. Perform monthly run cycle tests. 10. Check your batteries often. Keep in mind that those people who claim their gas turbine has faster switch-over time and never misses a start are probably running their compressors all the time at 100% RPM and applying fuel and turning on the igniters when they have a failure. Switch-over time is pretty damn fast in those cases. (under a second or two in most cases.) Anyhow, thats all the ideas I've got off the top of my head... (One of my long range projects is to build a small generator complex for my future house. Primaries run off of natural gas and the secondaries run off of diesel. I'm planning on using Nissan inline 4s as they're easy to work with and fairly cheap. I figure I can get at least 15kva out of a pair. (I've only got 10kva of UPS to feed so this shold be fine.) Should be fun.) /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 14:58:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07548 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:58:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA07531 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:58:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@sag.space.lockheed.com) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA26174; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:57:17 -0800 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:57:17 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Handy To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >> [Diesels fail to start every 15 times] > [Followed by...Matt's 10 steps to diesel happiness] Good god. Are you people serious? No, I'm sure you are. Man, I've worked with these things for *years*, I've kept a zillion TV transmitters and a handful of telephone outposts on the air with them, and I'll be damned if I ever saw the list o' 10 commandmants in the user's guide. Maybe I needed to go to the Cummins web page for this extra info. If you're working this hard to keep your diesels running, you need a vacation. Sheesh. All those interlocks are going to fail before you ever get around to turning the @#$@$ motor on. Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 15:01:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08245 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:01:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.31.78.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08238 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:01:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20026; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:01:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:01:28 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brian Handy cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Brian Handy wrote: > > [Followed by...Matt's 10 steps to diesel happiness] > If you're working this hard to keep your diesels running, you need a > vacation. Sheesh. All those interlocks are going to fail before you ever > get around to turning the @#$@$ motor on. Ok, so maybe thats a bit overkill... Heating the block and having a pre-presurized oil system is all you really need to do. /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 16:20:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17140 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:20:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17135 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:20:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA17847; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:14:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd017843; Fri Mar 6 16:14:35 1998 Message-ID: <3500906C.7566F4CF@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 16:10:20 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tom CC: "Justin T. Gibbs" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.dpt.com/os2.htm References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Tom wrote: > > On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > > > Last I looked at the DPT driver, it required the same software interrupt > > > hooks that CAM required. I don't think that we can make these changes > > > so close to the 2.2.6 release, but I will merge them in after 2.2.6 is > > > cut. > > > > the DPT driver for 2.2 (which I have in my tree ready to commit) > > supplies it's own software interrupt hooks which can be discarded when > > the CAM stuff is merged in. > > That is what I thought. > > Can those hooks be conditionally compiled to reassure those how are > skeptical about the DPT driver? At least the DPT driver can be shipped in > 2.2.6 tree then. I have done this.. I have checked in teh DPT driver into 2.2.x all the CHANGES (as opposed to new files) are conditional on DPTOPT. I thought it would be the safest way to do it so close to release time. so you need to add options DPTOPT to your config file as well as the more usual controller dpt0 the DPTOPT will go away after the release and when it's proven to work. > > Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 16:40:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19357 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:40:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA19348 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:40:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12310; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:40:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd012282; Fri Mar 6 17:40:37 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA24343; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:40:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803070040.RAA24343@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:40:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803052324.RAA10600@nospam.hiwaay.net> from "David Kelly" at Mar 5, 98 05:24:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Wandering , if we can get a grant from the goverment to support the SMP > > project or to support FreeBSD ? > > I think you'd stand a better chance with the US Gov if you sold your > pitch as a free and secure replacement for Windows. NT "security" was > pitched hard and only now is the true situation being realized. > > Problem is to replace Windows you would also have to replace Word and > Excel. These days government computers are essentially Microsoft Office > platforms, and Microsoft Office is essentially the OS. Get a grant for Win32 on FreeBSD first. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 16:59:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21490 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:59:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA21484 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:58:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11908; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:58:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd011878; Fri Mar 6 17:58:50 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA24995; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:58:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803070058.RAA24995@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP To: bhlewis@gte.net (Benjamin Lewis) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:58:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803060014.TAA13234@gte.net> from "Benjamin Lewis" at Mar 5, 98 07:14:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > How does one go about writing a program to check if a PPP link is up > > or down? > > I've seen lots of complicated responses to this, so there is probably > something inherintly wrong with what I've always done, check for the > existence of the /var/spool/lock/LCK..cuaa? file. If there is a possibility > that something else is using the serial line, one could check whether the > PID in the file matches the PPP process. #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include main() { char *ppp_name = "tun0"; struct ifreq ifr; int s; if( ( s = socket (AF_INET, SOCK_DGRAM, IPPROTO_UDP)) == -1) { perror( "socket"); exit( 1); } strcpy( ifr.ifr_name,ppp_name); if (ioctl(s, SIOCGIFFLAGS, (caddr_t)&ifr) == -1) { perror( "ioctl"); exit( 1); } printf( "%s: %s\n", ppp_name, (ifr.ifs_flags & IFF_UP) ? "up" : "down"); exit( 0); } Of course, not all of the includes are needed; I ripped this out of an experimental piece of DHCP code. Change the interface name from "tun0" to whatever; I happen to run user space ppp, so mine is named tun0. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 17:05:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23344 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:05:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23335 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:05:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13562; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:05:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd013510; Fri Mar 6 18:05:20 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA25317; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:05:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803070105.SAA25317@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Are mbufs aligned or bounded on something? To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:05:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: semen@iclub.nsu.ru, mike@smith.net.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803060654.WAA24313@implode.root.com> from "David Greenman" at Mar 5, 98 10:54:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >By the way: if i need aligned memory, should i use contigmalloc(), or > >better to use malloc, and align block by hands? > > All memory returned by malloc() is guaranteed to be power of two aligned > and won't span a page boundry if <= a page in size; there are many places in > the kernel that rely on this. > If you need a large chunk of memory that must be physically contiguous, > then use contigmalloc(). If you need to use contigmalloc(), then you should allocate at boot time. The current kernel does not support kernel page relocation as a means of defragmenting kernel memory to guarantee you the ability to do a contigmalloc() at some later date. Doing this is not terribly hard, but then leaves you with a contiguous region fragmentation problem (which would potentially leave you in the same boat, just less frequently than the current "always") if you alloc and dealloc frequently, and compete with other hardware for contig regions of different sizes. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 17:06:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23507 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:06:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA23427 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:06:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 20804 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 1998 01:14:27 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:14:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Bob Bishop Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, (marino.ladavac@siemens.at) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Mar-98 Bob Bishop wrote: > At 6:02 pm +0000 6/3/98, Simon Shapiro wrote: >>Wrong again. Diesel generators have a 15-180 seconds switch over time. > > True. It's also not widely realised that they aren't awfully reliable. > They > fail to start one time in N, regardless of how often you start them. N > used > to be about 15 last time I had anything much to do with them. I used to run a military radio station (along with telephony stuff, etc.) Somewhere in the Sinai deserts some time ago. Needless to say, we tended to want to keep electricity flowing regularly into our equipment. As the power company was not disposed to run lines to our part of the desert and the enemy (of that time) tended to cut any lines they could see, we used generators. We actually used diesels (from 5KW up to 200MW), but they were arranged as a non-stop. They charged BIG batteries. The microwave people used AC. We never had our radios out. They did. Our system cost 1/5 of theirs. AC is great for many things, but they tend to disappear within 2ms of disconnect from the power generator. BTW, 48VDC P/S for a PC is about $50.00, where an AC one is $15.00. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 17:14:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24638 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:14:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.91.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24571 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:13:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA04706; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:08:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:08:17 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Berlin To: Terry Lambert cc: David Kelly , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? In-Reply-To: <199803070040.RAA24343@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG SCO's merge 4.0 supports win95 under openserver. Networking and all. Runs it in an x window or full screen. Also, if you have multiple processors, you'll have a faster win95 than win95 On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Get a grant for Win32 on FreeBSD first. 8-). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 17:18:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25266 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:18:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25261 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:18:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id TAA29225; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:17:49 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id TAA18428; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:17:49 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980306191749.01367@mcs.net> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:17:49 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: Bob Bishop , dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, "marino.ladavac@siemens.at" Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 05:14:27PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 05:14:27PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > On 06-Mar-98 Bob Bishop wrote: > > At 6:02 pm +0000 6/3/98, Simon Shapiro wrote: > >>Wrong again. Diesel generators have a 15-180 seconds switch over time. > > > > True. It's also not widely realised that they aren't awfully reliable. > > They > > fail to start one time in N, regardless of how often you start them. N > > used > > to be about 15 last time I had anything much to do with them. > > I used to run a military radio station (along with telephony stuff, etc.) > Somewhere in the Sinai deserts some time ago. Needless to say, we tended > to want to keep electricity flowing regularly into our equipment. > > As the power company was not disposed to run lines to our part of the > desert and the enemy (of that time) tended to cut any lines they could see, > we used generators. We actually used diesels (from 5KW up to 200MW), but > they were arranged as a non-stop. They charged BIG batteries. The > microwave people used AC. We never had our radios out. They did. Our > system cost 1/5 of theirs. AC is great for many things, but they tend to > disappear within 2ms of disconnect from the power generator. > > BTW, 48VDC P/S for a PC is about $50.00, where an AC one is $15.00. Yeah, well, that's because DC/DC conversion takes two forms - expensive and cheap but wasteful in terms of dissipation (ie: basic regulation). AC/DC conversion by switching power supplies is so cheap now that it gets rediculous. Of course, its also cheap enough that lots of folks don't pay attention to minor little things like the tolerances of the components they use either. I used to be involved in Satellite Earth Station work (microcontrollers for same); a goodly amount of the stuff out there, particularly MCL's Klystron tuners and amplifiers, probably still has my code running around in them. The people who own these devices tend to be a bit anal about electricity. They also eat huge gobs of it. This means generators and monster UPS systems. Unfortunately, virtually all of *this* kind of equipment wants 220 3-phase in rather serious amperage ratings (or worse, 480 V). Shutting off a hot klystron by removing power is a great way to buy a new $25,000 tube; there is enough energy being dissipated in those things that if you shut them down without going through a clean power-down sequence (ie: forced air cooling for a few minutes) almost insures that you will damage the alignment of the plates in the tube (due to heat-related warpage). Given that under typical operation you have ~3KW *emitted* from the business end of these things in the form of a nice electron beam you really don't want that to happen. And those are the "small" ones; some of the larger ones had ~30KW rated outputs. What I've seen used is a monster online UPS installation with battery room, frequently comprised of open wet cells, and a big honking generator for utility backup. The batteries are basically there as a "smoothing" function - they keep things going until the generator can start up, warm up somewhat, and get to operating power. Most of these were diesel, but I *did* see one (big) gas turbine. The tests of these things (typically run once a week) were, uh, "interesting". -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 17:19:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25735 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:19:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25714 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:19:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16782; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:18:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd016743; Fri Mar 6 18:18:48 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA25810; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:18:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803070118.SAA25810@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... To: lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:18:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803060729.IAA29905@ws6423.gud.siemens.at> from "marino.ladavac@siemens.at" at Mar 6, 98 08:29:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ ...High Availability and ISP's... ] > > the dam... I recommend 2 separate UPSs for the two inputs. True HA should > > be on 48VDC, separate packs, separate feeds. Standard Telco stuff. > > And then you find yourself in the middle of a nuclear blast... > > Honestly, don't you think you're overdoing it a bit here. I mean, we're > still talking ISP, right? If the power goes, your modems are dead as well. > And if you want to UPS that, you're using motor-generator pairs with Diesel > backup and don't really care about batteries (a 30 year old Diesel still > kicks in within a second and if your power supply cannot stand a few second > intermittent failure then you have some seriously underdimensioned power > supplies). The point here is in the US, we are starting to think very seriously about the concept of "Internet dialtone" (well, some of us are), and come hell or high water, the packets must flow... If you are going to claim to be a common carrier, like the telco, then you need to *act* like a common carrier in terms of reliability. Other than overcommitted tone generators and DTMF decoders in the case of a state of emergency (ie: the last earthquake of 6.x or higher), I have *never* had an interruption of phone service. My power goes out with much greater frequency than my phones ever have. I think if an ISP isn't part of the communications infrastructure, he'll be replaced by one of his competitors who is. Reliability is starting to be one of the top line items people (at least in the US) are using when choosing an ISP, now that pricing is starting to fall into specific ranges for specific service offerings as the ISP competition space gets saturated. ISP services are becoming a commodity. Try thinking of it this way: if you have a site selling cars that's not on an HA server, and your competitor has one that is on an HA server, and you have a power outage in your part of California, who is the guy in New York going to buy through, the server that's down or the server that's up? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 17:36:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27159 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:36:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA27143 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:36:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 21240 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 1998 01:44:27 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980306191749.01367@mcs.net> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:44:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Karl Denninger Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: Bob Bishop , dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, "marino.ladavac@siemens.at" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: ... >> BTW, 48VDC P/S for a PC is about $50.00, where an AC one is $15.00. > > Yeah, well, that's because DC/DC conversion takes two forms - expensive > and > cheap but wasteful in terms of dissipation (ie: basic regulation). Yup. Many things in this earthly life tend to be that way. > AC/DC conversion by switching power supplies is so cheap now that it gets > rediculous. Of course, its also cheap enough that lots of folks don't > pay > attention to minor little things like the tolerances of the components > they > use either. Which quickly makes the cheap very expensive. > I used to be involved in Satellite Earth Station work (microcontrollers > for > same); a goodly amount of the stuff out there, particularly MCL's > Klystron > tuners and amplifiers, probably still has my code running around in them. > > The people who own these devices tend to be a bit anal about electricity. > They also eat huge gobs of it. This means generators and monster UPS > systems. Unfortunately, virtually all of *this* kind of equipment wants > 220 3-phase in rather serious amperage ratings (or worse, 480 V). > > Shutting off a hot klystron by removing power is a great way to buy a new > $25,000 tube; there is enough energy being dissipated in those things > that > if you shut them down without going through a clean power-down sequence > (ie: forced air cooling for a few minutes) almost insures that you will > damage the alignment of the plates in the tube (due to heat-related > warpage). > Given that under typical operation you have ~3KW *emitted* from the > business > end of these things in the form of a nice electron beam you really don't > want that to happen. And those are the "small" ones; some of the larger > ones had ~30KW rated outputs. Ugliest radio station I visited was a 1.8 MegaWatt short radio station. They had a direct feed from the power station down the mountain. I think they had their own set of generators at the power house. Same story. you do NOT shut these down. The desert installation I referred to was running a 2GHz microwave link at 1GW contineous. You should see what happened to seagulls who tried to fly in front of the dishes... We used the diesel-flywheel-generator-electric_motor arrangement. > What I've seen used is a monster online UPS installation with battery > room, > frequently comprised of open wet cells, and a big honking generator for > utility backup. Some of these are big enough to stand in. The amount of hydrogen boubling up classifies these rooms as explosives. > The batteries are basically there as a "smoothing" function - they keep > things going until the generator can start up, warm up somewhat, and get > to operating power. Yup. something between a filer and capacitor. They are very effective in that role. A bit too much for the typical FreeBSD server, but the lesson is the same. Have a battery somewhere in the loop, so your power input to the equipment never goes down. I do not remember the numbers, but somewhere around 6+ servers, it pays to put them in a rackmount and feed them DC. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 17:36:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27233 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:36:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27154 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:36:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26317; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:36:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd026299; Fri Mar 6 18:36:09 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA26475; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:36:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803070136.SAA26475@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? To: root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (Daniel Berlin) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:36:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dkelly@hiwaay.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Daniel Berlin" at Mar 6, 98 08:08:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Get a grant for Win32 on FreeBSD first. 8-). > > SCO's merge 4.0 supports win95 under openserver. > Networking and all. > Runs it in an x window or full screen. > Also, if you have multiple processors, you'll have a faster win95 than > win95 I don't run SCO, I run FreeBSD. Frankly, I think the kernel support for this has got to be horrific and not something that could be easily wedged into an ABI module. The networking is pretty trivial; you pretend the machine is yourself (transparent proxy), or you pretend it's on a routed subnet and you are the router. Trapping the net API to kernel space to get this is easy (Linux does it for IPX in their DOS emulator). The trapping to the host kernel is easy. It's the "emulating the rest of a 384/486/586 in the traps" that's the hard part. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 17:41:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28186 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:41:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA28174 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:40:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 21312 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 1998 01:49:17 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803070118.SAA25810@usr09.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:49:17 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Mar-98 Terry Lambert wrote: ... > The point here is in the US, we are starting to think very seriously > about the concept of "Internet dialtone" (well, some of us are), and > come hell or high water, the packets must flow... I implied that in the first part of this conversation. Terry is right, as usual. > If you are going to claim to be a common carrier, like the telco, > then you need to *act* like a common carrier in terms of reliability. > > Other than overcommitted tone generators and DTMF decoders in the case > of a state of emergency (ie: the last earthquake of 6.x or higher), I > have *never* had an interruption of phone service. My power goes out > with much greater frequency than my phones ever have. Telcos run equipment on 48VDC. In most switching rooms, not only you are not allowed (and do not have) power grid AC, you cannot even generate it inside your own cabinet. > I think if an ISP isn't part of the communications infrastructure, > he'll be replaced by one of his competitors who is. Reliability is > starting to be one of the top line items people (at least in the US) > are using when choosing an ISP, now that pricing is starting to fall > into specific ranges for specific service offerings as the ISP > competition space gets saturated. ISP services are becoming a > commodity. > > Try thinking of it this way: if you have a site selling cars that's not > on an HA server, and your competitor has one that is on an HA server, > and you have a power outage in your part of California, who is the > guy in New York going to buy through, the server that's down or the > server that's up? ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 17:43:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28685 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:43:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28677 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:43:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA05364; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:38:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803070138.RAA05364@implode.root.com> To: Terry Lambert cc: semen@iclub.nsu.ru, mike@smith.net.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are mbufs aligned or bounded on something? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 01:05:15 GMT." <199803070105.SAA25317@usr09.primenet.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:38:21 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> >By the way: if i need aligned memory, should i use contigmalloc(), or >> >better to use malloc, and align block by hands? >> >> All memory returned by malloc() is guaranteed to be power of two aligned >> and won't span a page boundry if <= a page in size; there are many places in >> the kernel that rely on this. >> If you need a large chunk of memory that must be physically contiguous, >> then use contigmalloc(). > >If you need to use contigmalloc(), then you should allocate at boot >time. Yes, I forgot to mention that, thanks. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 17:49:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29628 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:49:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA29605 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:49:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 21421 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 1998 01:58:01 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803070118.SAA25810@usr09.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:58:01 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Mar-98 Terry Lambert wrote: ... > Other than overcommitted tone generators and DTMF decoders in the case > of a state of emergency (ie: the last earthquake of 6.x or higher), I > have *never* had an interruption of phone service. My power goes out > with much greater frequency than my phones ever have. It runs 20:1 in residential, 4-6:1 in commercial areas. > I think if an ISP isn't part of the communications infrastructure, > he'll be replaced by one of his competitors who is. Reliability is > starting to be one of the top line items people (at least in the US) > are using when choosing an ISP, now that pricing is starting to fall > into specific ranges for specific service offerings as the ISP > competition space gets saturated. ISP services are becoming a > commodity. > > Try thinking of it this way: if you have a site selling cars that's not > on an HA server, and your competitor has one that is on an HA server, > and you have a power outage in your part of California, who is the > guy in New York going to buy through, the server that's down or the > server that's up? Now that you agreed with me that HA servers are important, are you going to help me build a FreeBSD one? I would really love to have you involved in this. Your insight and understanding can only make it better. I used to do this particular work for my employer, with the understanding that generic code goes back to FreeBSD. That agreement is still in force, but I am leaving that job as soon as I can, but want to continue this work. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 17:50:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29956 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:50:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29622 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:49:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id TAA29876; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:49:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id TAA18878; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:49:39 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980306194939.58793@mcs.net> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:49:39 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: Terry Lambert , dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <199803070118.SAA25810@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 05:49:17PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 05:49:17PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > Telcos run equipment on 48VDC. In most switching rooms, not only you are > not allowed (and do not have) power grid AC, you cannot even generate it > inside your own cabinet. Well, yeah, but I often wonder just how smart that really is. 48VDC might sound rather "harmless". Its not. The power levels running around in those switching centers are high enough to make me *extremely* careful when working around it. Bridge the positive and negative poles, and you'll find out what I mean. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 17:56:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01416 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:56:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01342 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:55:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA15837; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:55:42 -0800 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:55:41 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: Daniel Berlin cc: Terry Lambert , David Kelly , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Daniel Berlin wrote: > SCO's merge 4.0 supports win95 under openserver. > Networking and all. > Runs it in an x window or full screen. > Also, if you have multiple processors, you'll have a faster win95 than > win95 So what? One still has to pay Microsoft for a license, so it's not much different from having another box with Windows or running Windows in x86 emulator. AFAIK inefficient networking is one of the least our worries with Windows. > On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Get a grant for Win32 on FreeBSD first. 8-). And? Get in the whole lot of trouble with trade secrets, patents and reverse-engineering at the first attempt of soing anything marginally useful in it? I'll rather spend time/money/coffee on decent alternative to X11 or its extension with high-level functionality in server, as it will be more, realistic way to compete with Microsoft, and as opposed to copying their design, it will actually provide something useful for people, who really need computers. -- Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 18:12:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04179 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:12:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA04166 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:12:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16563 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:42:04 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA18640; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:42:04 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980307124203.50681@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:42:03 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Can I call scsi_strategy from the bottom half of a driver? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've come up with a rather strange problem: to perform a write in my RAID 5 driver, I need to first read in all two blocks, exclusive or the results and the block to be written, and write the block back to disk. This should be transparent to the caller. Normal requests, say a read, are straightforward enough: build subrequests to read the blocks needed, set the buffer headers to call an iodone function on completion (B_CALL). The top half issues all the requets in parallel, and the iodone function counts down and does a biodone () on the caller's bp when they're all complete. There'd be no particular difficulty issuing another VOP_STRATEGY call from the iodone function, but I seem to recall that the strategy routine belongs to the top half, and shouldn't be called from the bottom half. I've checked the code, and I can't see any reason why not, but I could well have missed something. Could anybody comment? If I can't call the strategy from the bottom half, I can't think of a clean way to do it, so I'd appreciate comments on that too. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 18:21:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05415 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:21:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05405 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:21:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA21248; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd021246; Fri Mar 6 18:14:56 1998 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:10:41 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Subject: DPT in 2.2.x not yet finished Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I need to go out for a few hours.. It is all conditionalised out so unless you want to use the DPT driver you won't see the problem but it won't compile correctly if you do try use it.. I will fix early tomorrow.. (gotta run) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 18:53:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08879 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:53:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08830 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:53:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA19459; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:51:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:51:41 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: Karl Denninger cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Terry Lambert , dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: <19980306194939.58793@mcs.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Karl Denninger wrote: > On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 05:49:17PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > Telcos run equipment on 48VDC. In most switching rooms, not only you are > > not allowed (and do not have) power grid AC, you cannot even generate it > > inside your own cabinet. Unless it's changed in the last 5 years, that's not true. The telco's test equipment is made by companies like HP, and runs on AC (not to mention the technicians stereos!). Of course they have AC in their office, and on every single equipment bay. Of course, their equipment does largely run on 48V nominal (which usually means around 55-56 V in fact, else the battery plant'd not ever get charged). Getting buzzed with 48V is nothing, even with 1500 Amps behind it, I've been bitten countless times. Ringing battery is _much_ more painful! Old style teletype, at polar +- 130V, would _really_ wake you up (thank god that was interrupted). > > Well, yeah, but I often wonder just how smart that really is. > > 48VDC might sound rather "harmless". Its not. The power levels running > around in those switching centers are high enough to make me *extremely* > careful when working around it. > > Bridge the positive and negative poles, and you'll find out what I mean. > > -- > -- > Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin > http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service > | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems > Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS > Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 18:58:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09525 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:58:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from friley585.res.iastate.edu (friley585.res.iastate.edu [129.186.167.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09519 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:58:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ccsanady@friley585.res.iastate.edu) Received: from friley585.res.iastate.edu (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by friley585.res.iastate.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA06647 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:58:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ccsanady@friley585.res.iastate.edu) Message-Id: <199803070258.UAA06647@friley585.res.iastate.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 Reply-to: ccsanady@iastate.edu To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: VM/Buffer cache sizing... (e.g. for serving NFS) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 20:58:39 -0600 From: Chris Csanady Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I had some questions about the workings of the buffer cache in our VM system. Currently, it seems that although the size of the cache varies dynamically, the maximum is still preset at compile time. Is this accurate? The reason I ask, is that in linux, it seems to grow dynamically until it reaches near the limit of your physical memory. I'm not sure how exactly it works, but can something similar be done it FreeBSD? If the limit were to be set really high though, would it starve everything else? When serving NFS to a large set of machines, it would allow for the entire file set to remain in cache (at least in our case, with 512M of ram.) Is this type of thing possible? Thanks, Chris Csanady To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 19:09:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10982 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:09:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10972 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:09:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.2) id OAA15897; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:09:20 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980307140919.22944@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:09:19 +1100 From: David Dawes To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: boot manager w/ freebsd References: <199803012253.OAA10127@dingo.cdrom.com> <199803020056.QAA07761@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199803020056.QAA07761@hub.freebsd.org>; from Darren Reed on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 11:56:42AM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 11:56:42AM +1100, Darren Reed wrote: >In some mail from Mike Smith, sie said: >> Either way, the booteasy code design is such that it's really only >> suited for simple arrangements. For more complex systems, I have to >> recommend either the OS/2 Boot Manager (if you have OS/2) or System >> Commander. If you insist on freeware, then OS-BS may also do what you >> want. > >In my experience, OS-BS doesn't work as well as Booteasy. I use OS-BS on a box with 6 OSs over 3 IDE drives, and haven't had any problems (including booting from the 3rd drive). I wouldn't go back to booteasy for anything other than pretty basic installations. I've never had any luck booting from even a second disk with it, but it has been a while since I tried it and maybe it works better now. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 19:12:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11919 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:12:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11912 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:12:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA24617; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:11:48 -0800 (PST) To: David Dawes cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: boot manager w/ freebsd In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:09:19 +1100." <19980307140919.22944@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 19:11:48 -0800 Message-ID: <24612.889240308@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I use OS-BS on a box with 6 OSs over 3 IDE drives, and haven't had any > problems (including booting from the 3rd drive). I wouldn't go back to > booteasy for anything other than pretty basic installations. I've never > had any luck booting from even a second disk with it, but it has been > a while since I tried it and maybe it works better now. If folks could figure out an easy way for me to install OS-BS from FreeBSD, I'd probably upgrade to it. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 19:14:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12371 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:14:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12193 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:13:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00262; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:13:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803070313.WAA00262@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: VM/Buffer cache sizing... (e.g. for serving NFS) In-Reply-To: <199803070258.UAA06647@friley585.res.iastate.edu> from Chris Csanady at "Mar 6, 98 08:58:39 pm" To: ccsanady@iastate.edu Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:13:34 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Csanady said: > > I had some questions about the workings of the buffer cache in our > VM system. Currently, it seems that although the size of the > cache varies dynamically, the maximum is still preset at compile > time. Is this accurate? > There are two kinds of caching in FreeBSD, (write-back) and (write-through, read) caching. Note that the write-back caching is limited to a reasonable size (to keep the disk from being overwhelmed by pending write requests), but the other cache is all of memory (including .text and mmapped files.) The two caches are physically the same and totally coherent, but logically slightly different. FreeBSD will not sandbag your disk subsystem with pending write requests. This design keeps the 'sync' command from freezing your system :-). > > The reason I ask, is that in linux, it seems to grow dynamically > until it reaches near the limit of your physical memory. I'm > not sure how exactly it works, but can something similar be done > it FreeBSD? If the limit were to be set really high though, > would it starve everything else? > FreeBSD does the same thing, but slightly more intelligently to avoid such starving. The algorithms are not complex, but are also not intuitive. > > When serving NFS to a large set of machines, it would allow for > the entire file set to remain in cache (at least in our case, > with 512M of ram.) Is this type of thing possible? > Of course :-). To verify that it works on FreeBSD, try running iozone for nearly the size of memory. You'll find the the read performance is very high up till some epsilon less than the size of available mem. The performance problem that you might see is that our metadata I/O is more conservative and not wide-open, unlike Linux. You can enable async metadata on UFS filesystems in order to get similar filesystem consistancy issues like Linux. The ONLY way that I would enable async metadata on a production, multi-user server is if there is a UPS on the system. Even then, it requires careful consideration. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 19:16:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12882 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:16:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA12863 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:16:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 22618 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 1998 03:24:16 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 19:24:16 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Chuck Robey Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, Terry Lambert , Karl Denninger Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Mar-98 Chuck Robey wrote: > On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Karl Denninger wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 05:49:17PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: >> > Telcos run equipment on 48VDC. In most switching rooms, not only you >> > are >> > not allowed (and do not have) power grid AC, you cannot even generate >> > it >> > inside your own cabinet. > > Unless it's changed in the last 5 years, that's not true. The telco's > test equipment is made by companies like HP, and runs on AC (not to > mention the technicians stereos!). Of course they have AC in their > office, and on every single equipment bay. My hardware people inform me that virtually all Telcos, domestic and international do not allow ANY AC equipment installed. I can belive test equipment is A/C, but test equipment is not permanently attached, rack-mounted. > Of course, their equipment does largely run on 48V nominal (which usually > means around 55-56 V in fact, else the battery plant'd not ever get > charged). Getting buzzed with 48V is nothing, even with 1500 Amps behind > it, I've been bitten countless times. Ringing battery is _much_ more > painful! Old style teletype, at polar +- 130V, would _really_ wake you > up (thank god that was interrupted). We used to run many painful practical jokes with these. I used to powe an old tube HiFi amplifier with a collection of these. BTW, some Telcos now allow A/C equipment in the rack, but not as part of their network. Network equipment must be DC, AFAIK. Simon Note: What has that got to do with FreeBSD? Quite a bit if you want to install a server in a switch... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 19:17:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13205 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:17:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13177 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:17:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00278; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:16:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803070316.WAA00278@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... In-Reply-To: from Chuck Robey at "Mar 6, 98 09:51:41 pm" To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:16:33 -0500 (EST) Cc: karl@mcs.net, shimon@simon-shapiro.org, tlambert@primenet.com, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chuck Robey said: > > Of course, their equipment does largely run on 48V nominal (which usually > means around 55-56 V in fact, else the battery plant'd not ever get > charged). Getting buzzed with 48V is nothing, even with 1500 Amps behind > it, I've been bitten countless times. Ringing battery is _much_ more > painful! Old style teletype, at polar +- 130V, would _really_ wake you > up (thank god that was interrupted). > Getting buzzed isn't the problem with 48V and mega-amps. It is any kind of metal jewelery melting and burning off skin :-(. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 19:23:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14049 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:23:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA14039 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:23:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 22709 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 1998 03:31:58 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803070316.WAA00278@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 19:31:57 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: karl@mcs.net, tlambert@primenet.com, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at, (Chuck Robey) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote: > Chuck Robey said: >> >> Of course, their equipment does largely run on 48V nominal (which >> usually >> means around 55-56 V in fact, else the battery plant'd not ever get >> charged). Getting buzzed with 48V is nothing, even with 1500 Amps >> behind >> it, I've been bitten countless times. Ringing battery is _much_ more >> painful! Old style teletype, at polar +- 130V, would _really_ wake you >> up (thank god that was interrupted). >> > Getting buzzed isn't the problem with 48V and mega-amps. It is any kind > of metal jewelery melting and burning off skin :-(. We knew to take off all jewlery. The killer was the dog-tags. You stayed for a qhile in the hospital after one of these evaporated around your nexk. I witnessed the aftermath of a Phillips #2 screwdriver dropping someplace it should not. Quite a site. A switching center here in town is using surplus submarine batteries. There are sealed and lay on their side, so they are not as sparky as the old open cells. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 19:36:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15249 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:36:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15240 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:36:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id VAA02013; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:36:00 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id VAA20351; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:35:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980306213559.63726@mcs.net> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:35:59 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: Chuck Robey Cc: shimon@simon-shapiro.org, Terry Lambert , dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <19980306194939.58793@mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Chuck Robey on Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 09:51:41PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 09:51:41PM -0500, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Karl Denninger wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 05:49:17PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > > Telcos run equipment on 48VDC. In most switching rooms, not only you are > > > not allowed (and do not have) power grid AC, you cannot even generate it > > > inside your own cabinet. > > Unless it's changed in the last 5 years, that's not true. The telco's > test equipment is made by companies like HP, and runs on AC (not to > mention the technicians stereos!). Of course they have AC in their > office, and on every single equipment bay. > > Of course, their equipment does largely run on 48V nominal (which usually > means around 55-56 V in fact, else the battery plant'd not ever get > charged). Getting buzzed with 48V is nothing, even with 1500 Amps behind > it, I've been bitten countless times. Ringing battery is _much_ more > painful! Old style teletype, at polar +- 130V, would _really_ wake you > up (thank god that was interrupted). I'm not talking about getting buzzed. I'm talking about bridging it with something near-zero resistance (say, a metallic object). People discount lower-voltage circuits because they *think* they're safer. They're not really if there is what amounts to a near-infinite current source behind them. 110V is perfectly safe if you provide no path to ground through yourself and never bridge hot and neutral (or ground). 48V is perfectly safe under the same conditions. Violate those conditions and you find out how unsafe either can be. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 19:42:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16310 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:42:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from friley585.res.iastate.edu (friley585.res.iastate.edu [129.186.167.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16277; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:42:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ccsanady@friley585.res.iastate.edu) Received: from friley585.res.iastate.edu (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by friley585.res.iastate.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA06836; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:42:07 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ccsanady@friley585.res.iastate.edu) Message-Id: <199803070342.VAA06836@friley585.res.iastate.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: ccsanady@iastate.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VM/Buffer cache sizing... (e.g. for serving NFS) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 22:13:34 EST." <199803070313.WAA00262@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 21:42:06 -0600 From: Chris Csanady Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Chris Csanady said: >> >> I had some questions about the workings of the buffer cache in our >> VM system. Currently, it seems that although the size of the >> cache varies dynamically, the maximum is still preset at compile >> time. Is this accurate? >> >There are two kinds of caching in FreeBSD, (write-back) and >(write-through, read) caching. Note that the write-back caching >is limited to a reasonable size (to keep the disk from being >overwhelmed by pending write requests), but the other cache >is all of memory (including .text and mmapped files.) The two >caches are physically the same and totally coherent, but logically >slightly different. FreeBSD will not sandbag your disk subsystem >with pending write requests. This design keeps the 'sync' command >from freezing your system :-). Ok, I did not realize that there were separate caching policies at work here. I was just looking at the stats that top provides.. probably a rather poor idea. Anyways, thanks for clearing up things, it is nice to know this. I should have just kept quiet and had faith. :) Should have known that there was something like this in place.. >> The reason I ask, is that in linux, it seems to grow dynamically >> until it reaches near the limit of your physical memory. I'm >> not sure how exactly it works, but can something similar be done >> it FreeBSD? If the limit were to be set really high though, >> would it starve everything else? >> >FreeBSD does the same thing, but slightly more intelligently to >avoid such starving. The algorithms are not complex, but are >also not intuitive. > >> When serving NFS to a large set of machines, it would allow for >> the entire file set to remain in cache (at least in our case, >> with 512M of ram.) Is this type of thing possible? >> >Of course :-). :) >To verify that it works on FreeBSD, try running iozone for nearly >the size of memory. You'll find the the read performance is very >high up till some epsilon less than the size of available mem. I will try this. We have not yet decided to use FreeBSD in this application, but I am trying my best. Surely if our other OS keeps up the random crashes, this may easier. I won't name names, but, I'm sure you can guess what it is. :P >The performance problem that you might see is that our metadata >I/O is more conservative and not wide-open, unlike Linux. You >can enable async metadata on UFS filesystems in order to get >similar filesystem consistancy issues like Linux. The ONLY way >that I would enable async metadata on a production, multi-user >server is if there is a UPS on the system. Even then, it requires >careful consideration. Yes, I am familiar with this. I am eagerly awaiting the integration of the soft updates code. :) On the note about linux file systems, a friend of mine recently had some problems. He was doing a parallel make in a directory, and the machine crashed. When it came back up, fsck showed hundreds of errors.. and then whenever he tried to rm -rf the dir, the machine would crash again.. Heh.. Silly OS. :) Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 19:43:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16784 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:43:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16694; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:43:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id VAA02185; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:43:46 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id VAA20432; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:43:45 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980306214345.34788@mcs.net> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:43:45 -0600 From: Karl Denninger To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: "John S. Dyson" , tlambert@primenet.com, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at, Chuck Robey Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... References: <199803070316.WAA00278@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 07:31:57PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 07:31:57PM -0800, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > On 07-Mar-98 John S. Dyson wrote: > > Chuck Robey said: > >> > >> Of course, their equipment does largely run on 48V nominal (which > >> usually > >> means around 55-56 V in fact, else the battery plant'd not ever get > >> charged). Getting buzzed with 48V is nothing, even with 1500 Amps > >> behind > >> it, I've been bitten countless times. Ringing battery is _much_ more > >> painful! Old style teletype, at polar +- 130V, would _really_ wake you > >> up (thank god that was interrupted). > >> > > Getting buzzed isn't the problem with 48V and mega-amps. It is any kind > > of metal jewelery melting and burning off skin :-(. > > We knew to take off all jewlery. The killer was the dog-tags. You stayed > for a qhile in the hospital after one of these evaporated around your nexk. > I witnessed the aftermath of a Phillips #2 screwdriver dropping someplace > it should not. Quite a site. > > A switching center here in town is using surplus submarine batteries. > There are sealed and lay on their side, so they are not as sparky as the > old open cells. Uh, sparks around batteries with the kind of capacities being played with in these environments is a seriously bad idea. So is any impairment of the ventilation system. Together they would make for a rather, uh, interesting situation. I have seen a #2 screwdriver *vaporized* by bridging the supply and ground on such a 48V plant. It was quite impressive, and tends to give you really serious respect for the energy levels involved in these things. Don't screw around when you're working near any high energy source. Voltage is *not* a reliable indication of whether you are dealing with energy levels that can be dangerous or even lethal, and in many ways I respect 48V Telco plant far more than I do 110V house current, if for no other reason than that people who don't know these things tend to get complacent around what they consider "low voltage" and therefore "safe" wiring. BTW, not all telcos prohibit 110V in their colocation areas. We have 110V hardware in a telco colocation room in Milwaukee. We *did* have to provide our own short-run UPS to cover generator startup (they don't cover that on the 110V side) and for the hard-wiring of the power and ground to the rack, but that was it. Doing so was far cheaper than buying 48V equipment for that installation, and it means that all our hardware is interchangable. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 19:58:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17813 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:58:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA17785 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:57:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 23123 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 1998 04:06:14 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980306213559.63726@mcs.net> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 20:06:14 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Karl Denninger Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, Terry Lambert , Chuck Robey Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: ... > I'm not talking about getting buzzed. I'm talking about bridging it with > something near-zero resistance (say, a metallic object). Like I said, that scredriver incident was as loud as a handgranade. The scredriver dropping fellow came out unharmed, except for the courtmarshal sentence to some 35 days in the brigg for violating more safety rules than anyone could count. > People discount lower-voltage circuits because they *think* they're > safer. > They're not really if there is what amounts to a near-infinite current > source behind them. >From R/C car racing, a sub-c NiCd battery will put out 60 AMp for about 3.5 minutes. > 110V is perfectly safe if you provide no path to ground through yourself > and never bridge hot and neutral (or ground). 48V is perfectly safe > under > the same conditions. Violate those conditions and you find out how > unsafe either can be. A telephone man older than I am (yes, there is such a thing), claimed that Union rules had as much to do with telephony voltages as pure engineering. The DC thing dates back to the days that DC/AC converters used mechanical vibrators and were less than efficient or reliable (yes, I used these on FM two-way radios) These old days were NOT good. Simon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 20:01:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18401 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:01:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA18317 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:01:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 23167 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 1998 04:09:40 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980306214345.34788@mcs.net> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 20:09:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Karl Denninger Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Cc: "John S. Dyson" , tlambert@primenet.com, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at, Chuck Robey Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: ... > BTW, not all telcos prohibit 110V in their colocation areas. We have 110V > hardware in a telco colocation room in Milwaukee. We *did* have to > provide > our own short-run UPS to cover generator startup (they don't cover that > on the 110V side) and for the hard-wiring of the power and ground to the > rack, but that was it. Doing so was far cheaper than buying 48V > equipment > for that installation, and it means that all our hardware is > interchangable. Yup. Some telcos now do that in co-locate rooms. Interesting possibilities for people like my employer. But our equipment directly connects to the switches, so maybe that's why they insist on 48VDC. Could also be that they do not insist and we simply do not ask :-) ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 20:58:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22980 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:58:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from murkwood.gaffaneys.com (dialup4.gaffaneys.com [208.155.161.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22938 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:57:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zach@gaffaneys.com) Received: (from zach@localhost) by murkwood.gaffaneys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13344; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:56:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from zach) Message-ID: <19980306225654.17589@gaffaneys.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:56:54 -0600 From: Zach Heilig To: Terry Lambert , Benjamin Lewis Cc: pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP References: <199803060014.TAA13234@gte.net> <199803070058.RAA24995@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803070058.RAA24995@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sat, Mar 07, 1998 at 12:58:46AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Mar 07, 1998 at 12:58:46AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: ... code removed ... > Of course, not all of the includes are needed; I ripped this out of an > experimental piece of DHCP code. After cleaning it up so it will compile, I tried your code. I always get: tun0: up no matter what the actual state is. -- Zach Heilig -- zach@gaffaneys.com Real Programs don't use shared text. Otherwise, how can they use functions for scratch space after they are finished calling them? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 21:14:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25250 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:14:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25236 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:13:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca34-04.ix.netcom.com [207.93.143.132]) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA05390; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/8.6.9) id VAA25423; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:10:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:10:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803070510.VAA25423@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tertiary Disk and GridPix From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG (To those not on the hackers list: this mail is sent to you via a BCC: list to protect your addresses from any lurkers.) Thanks for your interest in the Tertiary Disk / GridPix project. Unfortunately I don't have time to reply to you separately. However, I added some more information to our "architecture" page. You can get there from the main TD page: http://now.cs.berkeley.edu/Td/index.html I'm leaving for Japan tomorrow but will be back in a week and add some more. Meanwhile, these are the answers to most commonly asked questions: @ No, we don't run RAID (at least no parity-based RAID). @ No, we don't run any network filesystem. Please read the pages for more info. :) Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 21:32:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26878 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:32:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (root@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26873 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:32:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bannai@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from bannai@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id VAA07359 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:32:09 -0800 (PST) From: Vinay Bannai Message-Id: <199803070532.VAA07359@shell6.ba.best.com> Subject: Where is OS-BS? To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:32:09 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Can anyone point me the location of OS-BS? URL perhaps? Source code? Thanks Vinay -- Vinay Bannai E-mail: bannai@best.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 21:33:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27000 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:33:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from martini.ics.es.osaka-u.ac.jp (martini.ics.es.osaka-u.ac.jp [133.1.12.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26992 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:33:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matusita@ics.es.osaka-u.ac.jp) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by martini.ics.es.osaka-u.ac.jp (8.8.8/3.6W/ICS-2.2.2v7-44BSD) with ESMTP id OAA05857 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:33:28 +0900 (JST) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports for X11 stuff In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:01:42 +0200" <19980303160142.15863@techunix.technion.ac.il> References: <19980303160142.15863@techunix.technion.ac.il> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93b22 on Emacs 19.28 / Mule 2.3 (SUETSUMUHANA) X-FaceAnim: (-O_O-)(O_O- )(_O- )(O- )(- -)( -O)( -O_)( -O_O)(-O_O-) X-Fingerprint: 0C AC 93 FC E3 9D 9E 5B 3D B8 AC 5C 4A 79 D8 A6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19980307143323Q.matusita@ics.es.osaka-u.ac.jp> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:33:23 +0900 From: Makoto MATSUSHITA (=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJF4kRCQ3JD8kXiQzJEgbKEI=?=) X-Dispatcher: imput version 980219 Lines: 13 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG mellon> I'm afraid you misunderstood the argument. I was talking about mellon> X11 ports _that build without imake_. I'm also afraid you misunderstood the argument. Why do we consider such *poor* X application which does *not* use imake? IMHO, the true answers of this problem are 1) Ask to the rxvt developers to use imake, or 2) Ask to the XFree86 developers and all X application developers not to use imake; other solutions are not a true solution. -- - Makoto `MAR' MATSUSHITA When in Rome, do as the Romans do; When in X, do as the imake does. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 21:51:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28484 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:51:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from const. (tulip14.verinet.com [199.45.181.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28474 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:51:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20509 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:51:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:51:34 -0700 (MST) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199803070551.WAA20509@const.> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> How does one go about writing a program to check if a PPP link is up > >> or down? > > > > I've seen lots of complicated responses to this, so there is probably > > something inherintly wrong with what I've always done, check for the > > existence of the /var/spool/lock/LCK..cuaa? > > Why not just look at the interface status: [Ensuing example deleted] In the case of user land ppp, take a look at the pppctl(8) man page. It provides an example of how to check the status of ppp, among other things. Even pppctl leaves much to be desired; essentially to provides a way to control a running ppp daemon as though you are using the telnet socket. You must then parse the output from the session to get answers. I think ppp deserves a status tool that performs simple tests on the running daemon. Perhaps: if pppstat --linkup section then do something requiring 'section'. fi Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 22:08:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29902 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:08:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from friley585.res.iastate.edu (friley585.res.iastate.edu [129.186.167.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29883 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:07:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ccsanady@friley585.res.iastate.edu) Received: from friley585.res.iastate.edu (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by friley585.res.iastate.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00423 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:07:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ccsanady@friley585.res.iastate.edu) Message-Id: <199803070607.AAA00423@friley585.res.iastate.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 Reply-to: ccsanady@iastate.edu To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Soft updates inconsistencies... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 00:07:54 -0600 From: Chris Csanady Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I recently built a new kernel with the latest soft updates code, and rebooted. When I went to rm -rf /usr/obj/usr, It spontaneously rebooted (after a while.) It came up, fsck fixed it (after 1000's of lines of fixes,) and then booted. The thing is.. this happens when you try to cd to the /usr/obj/usr: friley585:/usr/obj/usr# ls ls: src: Bad file descriptor So.. I unmounted /usr, and fsck'd it, with the following errors. They are somewhat disturbing imho.. especially since fsck didn't fix them the first time. :\ This is with a kernel built today, with SMP.. Chris ** Phase 1 - Check Blocks and Sizes ** Phase 2 - Check Pathnames /lost+found IS AN EXTRANEOUS HARD LINK TO DIRECTORY /lost+found/#14897 REMOVE? [yn] y [ 3 more like this ] ** Phase 3 - Check Connectivity UNREF DIR I=22272 OWNER=root MODE=40755 SIZE=512 MTIME=Mar 6 23:25 1998 RECONNECT? [yn] y ** Phase 4 - Check Reference Counts LINK COUNT DIR I=58 OWNER=root MODE=40755 SIZE=512 MTIME=Mar 6 23:26 1998 COUNT -11 SHOULD BE 2 LINK COUNT INCREASING UNEXPECTED SOFTDEP INCONSISTENCY [lots and lots like this...] --Chris Csanady To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 22:26:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01557 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:26:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from drmemory.fnal.gov (drmemory.fnal.gov [131.225.105.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01552 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:26:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rneswold@mcs.net) Received: from localhost (rneswold@localhost) by drmemory.fnal.gov (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id AAA16865; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:20:26 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: drmemory.fnal.gov: rneswold owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:20:24 -0600 (CST) From: "Richard M. Neswold" X-Sender: rneswold@drmemory.fnal.gov Reply-To: rneswold@mcs.net To: allen campbell cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP In-Reply-To: <199803070551.WAA20509@const.> Message-ID: X-Spambot-Food: abuse@localhost postmaster@localhost postmaster@fbi.gov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, allen campbell wrote: > I think ppp deserves a status tool that performs simple tests on the > running daemon. Here's a ppp status tool (put this in a file called, for instance, 'ppp_up'): #!/bin/sh ifconfig -l -u | grep -q tun0; To test it: $ ppp_up && echo PPP is running. Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Rich Neswold | PGP: 0A C8 A5 76 DF 8E E1 B3 rneswold@mcs.net | F3 97 BE 73 DA CD 4B C9 http://www.mcs.net/~rneswold | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 23:14:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04709 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 23:14:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from osibisa.cl.msu.edu (osibisa.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA04662 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 23:12:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ikhala@osibisa.cl.msu.edu) Received: by osibisa.cl.msu.edu (SMI-8.6/MSU-2.20) id HAA04305; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 07:12:27 GMT Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 07:12:27 GMT From: original man Message-Id: <199803070712.HAA04305@osibisa.cl.msu.edu> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, bannai@best.com Subject: Re: Where is OS-BS? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 7 05:35:32 1998 > From: Vinay Bannai > Subject: Where is OS-BS? > To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:32:09 -0800 (PST) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Can anyone point me the location of OS-BS? URL perhaps? Source code? http://www.prz.tu-berlin.de/~wolf/os-bs.html > > Thanks > Vinay you're welcome ... ;-) > -- > Vinay Bannai E-mail: bannai@best.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 23:33:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06555 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 23:33:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA06549 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 23:33:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00475; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 02:33:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803070733.CAA00475@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Soft updates inconsistencies... In-Reply-To: <199803070607.AAA00423@friley585.res.iastate.edu> from Chris Csanady at "Mar 7, 98 00:07:54 am" To: ccsanady@iastate.edu Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 02:33:31 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Csanady said: > > I recently built a new kernel with the latest soft updates code, and > rebooted. When I went to rm -rf /usr/obj/usr, It spontaneously > rebooted (after a while.) It came up, fsck fixed it (after 1000's > of lines of fixes,) and then booted. The thing is.. this happens > when you try to cd to the /usr/obj/usr: > The soft-updates guys are about ready to commit the code. Also, it will still likely be unstable (only when enabled) for about 2wks more or so. It will also need some testing/regression testing for more bug feedback. The stuff is complex, but will be pretty cool when ready for production!!! My guesstimate is that by about the 1st of April softupdates will be really great. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 6 23:47:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08010 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 23:47:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA08001 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 23:47:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07332; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 23:47:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803070747.XAA07332@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "John S. Dyson" cc: ccsanady@iastate.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Soft updates inconsistencies... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 02:33:31 EST." <199803070733.CAA00475@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 23:47:00 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > My guesstimate is that by about the 1st of April softupdates will be > really great. You meant April 2 or March 31 , right ? 8) Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 00:23:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10229 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:23:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from const. (tulip14.verinet.com [199.45.181.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA10224 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:23:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20947; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:23:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:23:31 -0700 (MST) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199803070823.BAA20947@const.> To: rneswold@mcs.net Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > #!/bin/sh > ifconfig -l -u | grep -q tun0; This tells you something is happening on a tun interface. It doesn't tell you what is happening. My pseudo code tests for a specific 'section' from ppp.conf. This is important when several different ppp sections exist. I currently have four sections configured for various ppp hosts. Two of those sections are for different ppp hosts at the same institution (a private institution using RFC-1918 addresses.) Due to circumstances beyond my control, certain operations can be performed via one host and not the other. Being able to easily determine which of the two ppp hosts is in use might be useful. As another example, I regularly use two different ISPs. I maintain a mailbox with the primary ISP, and the secondary ISP provides no SMTP service. As is usual, the primary ISP will not forward mail from remote hosts. Attempts to send mail via SMTP while connected to the secondary ISP will be rejected. Again, it would be useful to be able to determine which dial-up host is in use, and quietly queue mail as needed. I realize there are many ways to overcome these issues. One might consider parsing netstat(1) output for patterns that would indicate which ppp host had assigned an interface address. This works as long as a) any one ppp host always assigns from the same range and b) no two ppp hosts assign from ranges which overlap (RFC-1918 again.) Or perhaps a reverse name lookup on the interface address, provided a) a name server is available and b) the peer host name doesn't suddenly change. Perhaps sendmail (and friends) many could be butchered to queue rather than bounce when a 'we do not forward' error occurs. Etcetera, etcetera. The fundamental problem here isn't a lack of special utilities for ppp, but rather the assumption that interfaces are static. None of the canonical daemons have the ability to vary their behavior based on the status of a particular interface (discounting the ability to log a failure,) even if you could identify the current ppp host. ('Never' is a vague word, however, and I don't presume to know the implementation details of all daemons.) You will understand that I mean this generally; dynamic network connections have not been considered in the design of most systems (DNS being an excellent example.) Solving this problem involves being able to query the status of abstract network interfaces and modifying behavior based on the results. Fortunately, most of the operations one might wish to perform via a ppp link are deterministic; you establish a connection, perform some operation and disconnect. You always know which host your dealing with while the link is up. This should sound familiar to current and (thankfully?) former UUCP administrators. :) Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 00:32:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11124 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:32:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [206.80.6.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA11119 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:32:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spidaman@well.com) Received: from well.com (nobody@well.com [206.15.64.10]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA28523; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (spidaman@localhost) by well.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22205; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:32:36 -0800 (PST) Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce,ba.internet Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:32:25 -0800 (PST) From: Ian Kallen To: postings@listfoundation.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-sf@arachna.com Subject: (event 3/12) SF Bay Area FreeBSD User's Group Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Who: San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD User's Group When: Thursday March 12, 1998 Where: Silicon Reef - 3057 17th Street (x Folsom & Harrison Streets) URL: http://www.arachna.com/freebsd/freebsd-sf-8.html Dr. Sudwell Brewer will dicuss implementing POSIX hops as an alternative to the traditional MIT hops implementation of UUBP (Unix to Unix Beer Protocol). A discussion of the relevent drinking vessels and RFC's will be followed by a lager vs. ale debate and a slide show illustrating characteristics of userspace barley vs. kernel barley. Bring your own bottle opener. OK, everything since the URL is a lie; I'm thristy, delirious and it's been a long day. However, we will be meeting at the time and place above on topics to be determined. FreeBSD is a high performance OS that runs on ordinary PC's. It's the ideal choice for file, print and internet serving (yea, there's a JDK 1.1.5 port too) even at 10 times the price ;) -- yup: it's free! See http://www.freebsd.org for the scoop and join us! Links to a map, directions and any further details that arise will be found at the URL above. -- Ian Kallen "Like so many Americans, she was trying to construct a life that made sense from things she found in gift shops." -- Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 01:09:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA13818 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:09:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA13790 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:08:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA10859; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 02:08:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd010821; Sat Mar 7 02:08:47 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA17333; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 02:08:40 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803070908.CAA17333@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP To: zach@gaffaneys.com (Zach Heilig) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:08:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, bhlewis@gte.net, pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980306225654.17589@gaffaneys.com> from "Zach Heilig" at Mar 6, 98 10:56:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Of course, not all of the includes are needed; I ripped this out of an > > experimental piece of DHCP code. > > After cleaning it up so it will compile, I tried your code. I always get: > tun0: up > > no matter what the actual state is. Look in ; I probably misspoke, and you probably want IFF_RUNNING. You can see these flags by doing an ifconfig -a before and after linkup; that should be enough to tell you what you should be looking for. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 01:19:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15030 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:19:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isvara.net (root@[130.88.148.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA14997 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:19:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@challenge.isvara.net) Received: from challenge.isvara.net ([130.88.66.5]) by isvara.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03281 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:19:34 GMT Message-ID: <350110FB.F5DF850E@challenge.isvara.net> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 09:18:51 +0000 From: freebsd@isvara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Soft updates inconsistencies... References: <199803070733.CAA00475@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John S. Dyson wrote: > The soft-updates guys are about ready to commit the code. Also, it > will still likely be unstable (only when enabled) for about 2wks more > or so. It will also need some testing/regression testing for more bug > feedback. The stuff is complex, but will be pretty cool when ready for > production!!! When it is comitted, do we enable it in the /etc/fstab file? Thanks, Dan _____________________________________ Daniel J Blueman BSc Computation, UMIST, Manchester Email: blue@challenge.isvara.net Web: http://www.challenge.isvara.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 01:47:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16539 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:47:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [207.141.254.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA16534 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:47:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (mail.futuresouth.com [207.141.254.21]) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA23028; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 03:46:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 03:46:52 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Ian Kallen cc: postings@listfoundation.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-sf@arachna.com Subject: Re: (event 3/12) SF Bay Area FreeBSD User's Group In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Ian Kallen wrote: > > Who: San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD User's Group > When: Thursday March 12, 1998 > Where: Silicon Reef - 3057 17th Street (x Folsom & Harrison Streets) > URL: http://www.arachna.com/freebsd/freebsd-sf-8.html > > Dr. Sudwell Brewer will dicuss implementing POSIX hops as an alternative > to the traditional MIT hops implementation of UUBP (Unix to Unix Beer > Protocol). A discussion of the relevent drinking vessels and RFC's will > be followed by a lager vs. ale debate and a slide show illustrating > characteristics of userspace barley vs. kernel barley. Bring your own > bottle opener. Here it is: UUBP ---- NAME uubp -- Unix-to-Unix beer protocol SYNOPSIS uubp [- acefghlqy] site DESCRIPTION uubp allows the user to transfer beer, ale, or other fermented grain beverages between network sites. Using TCP/IP (telecommunications protocol for imbibing pilsners), uubp encodes beer from a local file system into packets suitable for FTP (fermentation transfer protocol) delivery at a remote IP site. Example: % uubp -c"AMBER" -f0.7 -y0 -q2 198.137.240.100 The preceding example sends two six-packs (-q2) of amber ale (-c"AMBER") with a fizziness quotient of 70%, brewed using yeast of type 0 (saccharo-myces cerevisiae) to IP address 198.137.240.100, which is the IP address for the White House. RESTRICTIONS Both source and destination sites must be running uubp-daemon. In addition, local restrictions exist in many areas for the transportation of alcohol across state lines. The Electronic Frontier Foundation is currently involved in litigation to ensure the ability to distribute beer through the uubp protocol according to the 21st Amendment. To support the SIG of EFF devoted to this cause, join the Homebrewers of the Electronic Frontier Engaged in Winning Electronic Independence and Zeroing Establishment Nonsense (HEFEWEIZEN), or send mail to hefeweizen@eff.eff.org. Be sure to include the entire text of this manual page. NOTES Relax. Don't worry. Have a homebrew! ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's been a long day for me, too ;-P *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 02:48:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21102 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 02:48:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isvara.net (root@[130.88.148.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21094; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 02:48:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@challenge.isvara.net) Received: from challenge.isvara.net ([130.88.66.5]) by isvara.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03381; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:48:20 GMT Message-ID: <350125C8.C9E29294@challenge.isvara.net> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 10:47:36 +0000 From: freebsd@isvara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: davidg@FreeBSD.ORG CC: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Ethernet devices... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, what is the defined way to create a new ethernet device, and what device name can I use? (what about 'dx') Thanks, Dan _____________________________________ Daniel J Blueman BSc Computation, UMIST, Manchester Email: blue@challenge.isvara.net Web: http://www.challenge.isvara.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 02:56:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22924 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 02:56:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peedub.muc.de (newpc.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22919 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 02:56:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garyj@peedub.muc.de) Received: from peedub.muc.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peedub.muc.de (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA22658; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 11:57:08 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199803071057.LAA22658@peedub.muc.de> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: hans@brandinnovators.com (Hans Zuidam) cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... Reply-To: Gary Jennejohn In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 13:56:33 +0100." <199803061256.NAA22892@truk.brandinnovators.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 11:57:08 +0100 From: Gary Jennejohn Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hans Zuidam writes: >> Gary Jennejohn wrote: >> Spent the longest 3 months of my life in Eindhoven finishing up a port >> to a 68020 system for Philips. >Wasn't that the PG2100 with the two huge gate arrays :-)? > may have been. All I remember for certain is that it was a VME board. --- Gary Jennejohn Home - garyj@muc.de Work - garyj@fkr.dec.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 03:12:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA23940 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 03:12:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ren.globecomm.net (ren.globecomm.net [207.51.48.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA23935 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 03:12:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpitcher@weirdness.com) Received: from weirdness.com ([206.30.144.66]) by ren.globecomm.net (8.8.8/8.8.0) with ESMTP id GAA27031 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 06:12:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35012BAB.FF3C11B9@weirdness.com> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 06:12:44 -0500 From: Keith Pitcher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: subscribe freebsd-hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe freebsd-hackers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 03:15:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA24026 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 03:15:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ren.globecomm.net (ren.globecomm.net [207.51.48.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA24020 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 03:15:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpitcher@weirdness.com) Received: from weirdness.com ([206.30.144.66]) by ren.globecomm.net (8.8.8/8.8.0) with ESMTP id GAA27247 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 06:15:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35012C4F.55B62D75@weirdness.com> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 06:15:27 -0500 From: Keith Pitcher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SMC9432TX Question. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am currently running 2.2.5-release and wish to add the support for the SMC9432tx network card. After checking Ustimenko Semen's homepage (http://iclub.nsu.ru/~semen/smc9432tx.html) I only found diffs. I did find version 1.62 in the mailing archives, which was labeled for 2.2.5-release. However after applying the 1.62 patch, recompiling the kernel, and rebooting ; my system only detects an unknown hardware type tx0. dmesg shows no tx0 device found. If this is a known bug in the earlier version of the driver, I'd appreciate a pointer to the full version of the latest release. Keith Pitcher kpitcher@weirdness.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 03:36:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA25277 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 03:36:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newserv.urc.ac.ru (newserv.urc.ac.ru [193.233.85.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA25255 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 03:35:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joy@urc.ac.ru) Received: from urc.ac.ru (y.urc.ac.ru [193.233.85.37]) by newserv.urc.ac.ru (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA11526; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:34:45 +0500 (ES) (envelope-from joy@urc.ac.ru) Message-ID: <350130D5.AE9B61F4@urc.ac.ru> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 16:34:45 +0500 From: Konstantin Chuguev Organization: South Ural Center of FREEnet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zach Heilig CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP References: <199803060014.TAA13234@gte.net> <199803070058.RAA24995@usr09.primenet.com> <19980306225654.17589@gaffaneys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Zach Heilig wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 07, 1998 at 12:58:46AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > ... code removed ... > ? Of course, not all of the includes are needed; I ripped this out of an > ? experimental piece of DHCP code. > > After cleaning it up so it will compile, I tried your code. I always get: > tun0: up > > no matter what the actual state is. > Are you running ppp in -auto mode? If so, the tun* interface is always up, no matter, is modem carrier detected or not. IP packets normally go to the tun*, and after that, if the serial line is down, ppp dials etc. So, I don't see a way to detect the PPP connection state better than using pppctl by some script. If you're not using -auto mode, but still need to detect the state of PPP (-ddial, incoming PPP), you can flag the state by creating a file in /etc/ppp/ppp.linkup and /etc/ppp/ppp.linkdown scripts (they don't run in -auto mode). -- Konstantin V. Chuguev. System administrator of Ural Regional Center of FREEnet, Joy@urc.ac.ru Chelyabinsk, Russia. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 05:02:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA03158 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 05:02:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from awfulhak.org (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA03023 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 05:01:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10028; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:22:26 GMT (envelope-from brian@gate.lan.awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199803071222.MAA10028@awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Peter van Heusden cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 05 Mar 1998 07:16:09 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 12:22:26 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hi > > How does one go about writing a program to check if a PPP link is up or > down? I'm running PPP in -auto mode, and I'd like to be able to tell > whether the PPP link is actually up (i.e. the modem connection is in > place) at any particular time. Unfortunately, the flags on tun0 stay the > same (0x8051 on my system) whether the modem is connected or not. What > should I be looking at? Wow, what a range of answers. The ifconfig | fgrep UP answer is wrong as ppp -auto will keep the interface UP so that it can detect traffic that'll bring the line up. The correct answer is the one about the PPP prompt (it's mentioned in the pppctl man page). The problem of course is that ppp will only accept one diagnostic connection, so if someone else is already talking to ppp, you get no answer :-| I plan to facilitate ``status'' connections soon. This ``status'' socket will be like a read-only diagnostic socket that pumps out information about the state of ppp periodically. It will allow a configurable number of connections. I'll probably do a little tcl program to show how it works too (but my tcl's not too good). > Thanks, > Peter > -- > Peter van Heusden | Computers Networks Reds Greens Justice Peace Beer Africa > pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za | Support the SAMWU 50 litres campaign! -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 05:02:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA03240 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 05:02:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from awfulhak.org (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA03123 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 05:02:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10053; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:26:46 GMT (envelope-from brian@gate.lan.awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199803071226.MAA10053@awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re (Solved) dump bug or file system problem ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 03:49:49 -0300." <199803060649.DAA13889@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 12:26:46 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > gaia::jonny [521] ls -lisa /usr/bin/ranlib > 8050 16 -r-xr-xr-x 1 bin bin 1125899906859008 Feb 16 16:58 /usr/bin/ranlib [.....] This software bloat is getting out of hand ! > Jonny > > -- > Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br > +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br > Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI > PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 06:07:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10320 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 06:07:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from awfulhak.org (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA10305 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 06:07:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12904; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:05:23 GMT (envelope-from brian@gate.lan.awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199803071405.OAA12904@awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Terry Lambert cc: zach@gaffaneys.com (Zach Heilig), bhlewis@gte.net, pvh@leftside.wcape.school.za, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 09:08:40 GMT." <199803070908.CAA17333@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:05:23 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Of course, not all of the includes are needed; I ripped this out of an > > > experimental piece of DHCP code. > > > > After cleaning it up so it will compile, I tried your code. I always get: > > tun0: up > > > > no matter what the actual state is. > > Look in ; I probably misspoke, and you probably want > IFF_RUNNING. Ppp keeps the interface UP and RUNNING when it's in auto mode. > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 06:44:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA13078 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 06:44:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA13043 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 06:44:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.2/nospam) with UUCP id PAA28040 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:44:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.8/keltia-2.13/nospam) id NAA25777; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:24:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980307132441.A25761@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:24:41 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Soft updates inconsistencies... Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Hackers References: <199803070733.CAA00475@dyson.iquest.net> <350110FB.F5DF850E@challenge.isvara.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90.4i In-Reply-To: <350110FB.F5DF850E@challenge.isvara.net>; from freebsd@isvara.net on Sat, Mar 07, 1998 at 09:18:51AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4103 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to freebsd@isvara.net: > When it is comitted, do we enable it in the /etc/fstab file? It has to be enable through tunefs(8) for the moment. usage: tunefs tuneup-options special-device where tuneup-options are: -a maximum contiguous blocks -d rotational delay between contiguous blocks -e maximum blocks per file in a cylinder group -m minimum percentage of free space -n soft updates (`enable' or `disable') -o optimization preference (`space' or `time') -p no change - just prints current tuneable settings -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Mar 1 18:50:39 CET 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 07:42:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19132 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 07:42:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA19127 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 07:42:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA13033; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id KAA23291; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:41:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:41:59 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Janowski To: Ian Kallen cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (event 3/12) SF Bay Area FreeBSD User's Group In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Ian Kallen wrote: > > Who: San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD User's Group > When: Thursday March 12, 1998 > Where: Silicon Reef - 3057 17th Street (x Folsom & Harrison Streets) > URL: http://www.arachna.com/freebsd/freebsd-sf-8.html > > Dr. Sudwell Brewer will dicuss implementing POSIX hops as an alternative > to the traditional MIT hops implementation of UUBP (Unix to Unix Beer > Protocol). A discussion of the relevent drinking vessels and RFC's will > be followed by a lager vs. ale debate and a slide show illustrating > characteristics of userspace barley vs. kernel barley. Bring your own > bottle opener. On the topic of hops and UUBP, is there a FreeBSD User's Group in New York City? If not (sigh), I'll start one. (Where do I get my fanchise materials; do I get funny paper hats?) Who here is in or around NYC? BTW, what is 'listfoundation' ? Dan -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 07:53:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20928 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 07:53:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from apollo.ptway.com (apollo.ptway.com [199.176.148.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA20912 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 07:53:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from haskin@ptway.com) Received: from brianjr (116R1.infinitecom.com [199.176.148.59] (may be forged)) by apollo.ptway.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24715; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:55:24 -0500 Message-ID: <001e01bd49e1$1aa91600$0b00000a@brianjr.haskin.org> From: "Brian Haskin" To: , "allen campbell" Cc: Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:52:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----Original Message----- From: Richard M. Neswold To: allen campbell Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Saturday, March 07, 1998 1:26 AM Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP >On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, allen campbell wrote: > >> I think ppp deserves a status tool that performs simple tests on the >> running daemon. > >Here's a ppp status tool (put this in a file called, for instance, >'ppp_up'): > > #!/bin/sh > ifconfig -l -u | grep -q tun0; > >To test it: > > $ ppp_up && echo PPP is running. > > Rich > umm, this will tell you if the interface is up or not, i.e. if ppp is running. The original question was how, using userland ppp with the auto dial mode do you tell if ppp is currently connected. Your test would always show that the interface is up even when the modem is not actually connected, because the ppp is keeping the interface up and when it actually receives an outgoing packet it will dial. Others have pointed out various methods of checking this, varying from using pppctl to checking for a lock on the serial port. Brian Haskin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 09:36:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27607 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:36:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from enteract.com (ainvar@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27587 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:36:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ainvar@enteract.com) From: ainvar@enteract.com Received: (from ainvar@localhost) by enteract.com (8.8.8/8.7.6) id LAA21436; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 11:35:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980307113559.50298@enteract.com> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 11:35:59 -0600 To: Daniel Berlin , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD burners: recommendations? References: <19980306144453.36162@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-md5; boundary=sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Daniel Berlin on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 11:17:13PM -0500 x-no-archive: yes Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 11:17:13PM -0500, Daniel Berlin wrote: > MP6200s from Ricoh. > I've gotten that thing to work on every OS known to man. > And some known only to Aliens (IE Linux for the 3BX$#&@!*#&!@# (it's > unpronouncable in your hoo-man languages)) > --DAn Really? I haven't been able to accomplish anything with my IDE version of this drive.... FreeBSD doesn't know it. The Windows 95 software they include doesn't support Rockridge extensions, which seems to be required if you want to make a CD with long filenames (a FreeBSD CD, for example..) I haven't tried Linux.. how is its support? I could install Linux on the Windows 95 machine, then use Linux to create BSD cds.. but then how would I get Linux installed??-- Linux doesn't support FTP install and I am not paying $50+ for a copy of linux on a cd.. Their tech support is "unresponsive." > On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >=20 > > I'm considering getting a CD-ROM burner. Can anybody offer > > recommendations, war stories or comments? > >=20 > > Greg --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNQGFfTb5Q8E1KAKlAQHKkAP+OBg5QuPbDNf9RFXxRcgtQNhZB6mjEON9 ILOfam6d0Z5TRpWz8s2n2MShfIsUFiJafrauCAdIKrdTT9XWhM4pexXs7bUblmM+ 1L4Glie5lm4UFHcwYTZoGbRaQ+VtAyqBEffO65LyrueayMcqeHOJg1xmewEbzT9p CY/PSQ3wCXs= =9T6H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 10:10:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01341 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:10:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net [193.195.0.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA01328 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:10:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from ragnet.demon.co.uk ([158.152.46.40]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa1016196; 7 Mar 98 18:00 GMT Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yBLJz-0000Lo-00; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:15:31 +0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803071222.MAA10028@awfulhak.org> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 15:15:30 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Brian Somers Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Mar-98 Brian Somers wrote: >> Hi >> >> How does one go about writing a program to check if a PPP link is up or >> down? I'm running PPP in -auto mode, and I'd like to be able to tell >> whether the PPP link is actually up (i.e. the modem connection is in >> place) at any particular time. Unfortunately, the flags on tun0 stay the >> same (0x8051 on my system) whether the modem is connected or not. What >> should I be looking at? > > Wow, what a range of answers. > > The ifconfig | fgrep UP answer is wrong as ppp -auto will keep the > interface UP so that it can detect traffic that'll bring the line > up. > > The correct answer is the one about the PPP prompt (it's mentioned in > the pppctl man page). > > The problem of course is that ppp will only accept one diagnostic > connection, so if someone else is already talking to ppp, you get no > answer :-| > > I plan to facilitate ``status'' connections soon. This ``status'' > socket will be like a read-only diagnostic socket that pumps out > information about the state of ppp periodically. It will allow a > configurable number of connections. I'll probably do a little > tcl program to show how it works too (but my tcl's not too good). I'll help here if you want. Could the status be done a bit like a "daytime" service; just connect and it pumps out a string on demand and then closes its end. Or, are you expecting to support a persistant connection and the consumer just does blocking reads? Also, can this be made none password protected for simple info? Ahh buts as it read only this must be true. Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 10:47:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03871 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:47:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from plex.nl (SPARCserver.plex.nl [193.67.154.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA03856 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:46:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbackus@plex.nl) Received: from jos.mp-c.com (annex1s3.urc.tue.nl [131.155.12.13]) by plex.nl (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA13169; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:38:53 +0100 Received: (qmail 477 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 1998 14:44:39 -0000 Message-ID: <19980307154439.26748@mp-c.com> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:44:39 +0100 From: Jos Backus To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: boot manager w/ freebsd Reply-To: Jos Backus References: <19980307140919.22944@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> <24612.889240308@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <24612.889240308@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 07:11:48PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 07:11:48PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > If folks could figure out an easy way for me to install OS-BS from > FreeBSD, I'd probably upgrade to it. It seems that the new version has gone commercial. -- Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ "Modularity is not a hack." _/ _/ _/ -- D. J. Bernstein _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ jbackus@plex.nl _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 10:52:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04705 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:52:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA04673 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:52:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id SAA03615; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:21:49 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199803071721.SAA03615@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: weird problem (lost packets) in iijppp To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:21:49 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Since i wanted to play with ppp (to implement better compression for UDP/RTP traffic, and implement "preemption" of long, non real-time packets), i decided to do some tests using ppp over tcp. Setting up everything with two ppp instances on the same machine (details at the end of this email) i tried some pings and, surprise surprise: # ping 10.0.0.1 PING 10.0.0.1 (10.0.0.1): 56 data bytes ... 64 bytes from 10.0.0.1: icmp_seq=21 ttl=255 time=1.839 ms 64 bytes from 10.0.0.1: icmp_seq=22 ttl=255 time=1.748 ms 64 bytes from 10.0.0.1: icmp_seq=24 ttl=255 time=1.786 ms ... NOTE THE MISSING PKT 23 ... 64 bytes from 10.0.0.1: icmp_seq=30 ttl=255 time=1.716 ms 64 bytes from 10.0.0.1: icmp_seq=31 ttl=255 time=1.750 ms ^C --- 10.0.0.1 ping statistics --- 32 packets transmitted, 31 packets received, 3% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max = 1.716/1.826/3.646 ms so the packet has been lost (and not because i interrupted the ping, it is in the middle of the sequence), but presumably outside the low level (tcp) link since the ppp stats on the two sides seem to suggest that the packet has been correctly transferred over the link: Protocol in out client: COMPD : 31, 32 server: COMPD : 32, 31 Apart from some weird interaction with TCP delayed acks on the TCP circuit which carries ppp packets (since packets around 108 bytes and above 1500 will have a RTT of 300-400ms), there are some occasional packet losses (got up to 10-15 lost in some tests) and i have no idea where they occur. At first sight the losses seem to be more frequent when there is a short (<100ms) RTT. Disabling "pred1" compression seems not to make much difference -- just the effect of the predictor changes the sizes for which i get the delayed acks, but the losses remain. For what matters, i got the same loss pattern using ppp on a real modem line (frequently the losses occur at multiple of 8 pkts if that matters). I thought they were due to the modem (i.e. congestion somewhere) but that's not possible since ping is sending 1 pkt/s and the queues are 10pkts at least (i think) -- perhaps even 20 or 50 pkts. Any idea on this problem ? I am seeing it on 2.2.1 -- maybe newer relases of ppp do not have the problem. In any case something to check. For those willing to duplicate the problem, i have patched modem.c so that a negative port number will instruct ppp to open the socket in server mode. On the two sides i run [server] % ppp tcps [client] % ppp tcpc then go into "term" mode at the ppp prompt, and on one of the parties press ~p to enter packet mode. The relevant lines in ppp.conf are: #server for tcp connection tcps: set device 127.0.0.1:-2400 set ifaddr 10.0.0.1 10.0.0.2 tcpc: set device 127.0.0.1:2400 set ifaddr 10.0.0.2 10.0.0.1 while the patches for modem.c are as following cheers luigi --- ../ppp.22R/modem.c Sun Jan 12 22:52:49 1997 +++ modem.c Sat Mar 7 15:25:04 1998 @@ -334,6 +334,7 @@ struct hostent *hp; struct servent *sp; +bzero(&dest, sizeof(dest) ); dest.sin_family = AF_INET; dest.sin_addr.s_addr = inet_addr(host); if (dest.sin_addr.s_addr == INADDR_NONE) { @@ -357,6 +358,27 @@ } LogPrintf(LOG_PHASE_BIT, "Connected to %s:%s\n", host, port); + if (ntohs(dest.sin_port) & 0x8000) { + struct sockaddr_in src; +int r , l; + + bzero(&src, sizeof(src) ); + dest.sin_port = htons(- (short)(ntohs(dest.sin_port)) ) ; + dest.sin_addr.s_addr = INADDR_ANY ; + printf("using server socket at %d\n", ntohs(dest.sin_port)); + sock = socket(PF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, 0); + if (sock < 0) { + return(sock); + } + r = bind(sock, &dest, sizeof(dest) ); + printf("bind returns %d\n", r); + listen(sock, 10); + printf("listen returns %d\n", r); + l = sizeof(src) ; + sock = accept(sock, &src, &l ); + printf("accept returns %d\n", sock); + + } else { sock = socket(PF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, 0); if (sock < 0) { return(sock); @@ -364,6 +386,7 @@ if (connect(sock, (struct sockaddr *)&dest, sizeof(dest)) < 0) { printf("connection failed.\n"); return(-1); + } } return(sock); } To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 11:50:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09024 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 11:50:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09019 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 11:50:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA13273 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 11:50:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803071950.LAA13273@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: JACE -- ACE ported to Java Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 11:50:49 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The C++ Class library Adapative Communication Environment, ACE has been ported to Java well most of it . If you are interested check it out on : http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~pjain/java/ace/ACE.html For FreeBSD Java see http://www.freebsd.org/java/ Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 15:23:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26666 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26633 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:23:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from orthoefe@gte.net) Received: from moltar.oshea.lan (1Cust84.max25.orlando.fl.ms.uu.net [153.34.174.84]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id RAA13466 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:23:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:24:46 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Orthoefer X-Sender: orthoefe@moltar.oshea.lan To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: CD burners: recommendations? In-Reply-To: <199803061434.IAA23800@iworks.InterWorks.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have the external scsi version of the MP6200, and have burnt serveral disks with it on a 3.0-971108-SNAP machine using cdrecord out of ports. It is probed as a scsi cdrom drive; scbus0 target 6 lun 0: type 5 removable SCSI 2 cd0 at scbus0 target 6 lun 0 cd0: CD-ROM can't get the size The main stumbling block was to stay patient enough to read the documentation from cdrecord to establish the following link; lrwxrwxrwx 1 root wheel 9 Feb 22 23:05 /dev/scgx -> /dev/cd0c brw-r----- 1 root operator 6, 2 Aug 27 1997 /dev/cd0c I've had SCSIDEBUG enabled on this machine for a while, don't know if that had any influence on cdrecord working. On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Daniel M. Eischen wrote: > > > MP6200s from Ricoh. > > > I've gotten that thing to work on every OS known to man. > > > And some known only to Aliens (IE Linux for the 3BX$#&@!*#&!@# (it's > > > unpronouncable in your hoo-man languages)) > > > > How difficult is to make it work with FreeBSD ? > > FYI, I was unable to get the SCSI specs for that CD-ROM > from Ricoh. They wanted me to sign an NDA. > > Although, if there is Linux support for it, someone must > have figured out how to use it. > > Dan Eischen > deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org > > (Who owns an HP SureStore 6020 which works fine with FreeBSD :) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 16:42:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06352 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:42:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from awfulhak.org (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06068 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:39:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18531; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:31:01 GMT (envelope-from brian@gate.lan.awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199803080031.AAA18531@awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Duncan Barclay cc: Brian Somers , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Detecting state of PPP In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 15:15:30 GMT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 00:31:00 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I plan to facilitate ``status'' connections soon. This ``status'' > > socket will be like a read-only diagnostic socket that pumps out > > information about the state of ppp periodically. It will allow a > > configurable number of connections. I'll probably do a little > > tcl program to show how it works too (but my tcl's not too good). > > I'll help here if you want. > > Could the status be done a bit like a > "daytime" service; just connect and it pumps out a string on demand and then > closes its end. Or, are you expecting to support a persistant connection > and the consumer just does blocking reads? I really want to allow heartbeat / throughput type monitors where the refresh rate is controlled by the server. Once the connection is established, it'll write information to the socket 'till the socket is closed. Pppctl will be smart enough to answer `one-off' type questions, or you can use something like `sed' to find a labeled piece of information then exit. > Also, can this be made none password protected for simple info? Ahh buts as it > read only this must be true. It'll be the same as the diagnostic socket in this respect - you can specify an empty password if you wish. > Duncan > > --- > ________________________________________________________________________ > Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, > dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. > ________________________________________________________________________ -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 16:57:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07462 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:57:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from awfulhak.org (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA07451 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:57:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19541; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:56:13 GMT (envelope-from brian@gate.lan.awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199803080056.AAA19541@awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Luigi Rizzo cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: weird problem (lost packets) in iijppp In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 18:21:49 +0100." <199803071721.SAA03615@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 00:56:12 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Since i wanted to play with ppp (to implement better compression for > UDP/RTP traffic, and implement "preemption" of long, non real-time > packets), i decided to do some tests using ppp over tcp. > > Setting up everything with two ppp instances on the same machine > (details at the end of this email) i tried some pings and, surprise > surprise: > > # ping 10.0.0.1 > PING 10.0.0.1 (10.0.0.1): 56 data bytes > ... > 64 bytes from 10.0.0.1: icmp_seq=21 ttl=255 time=1.839 ms > 64 bytes from 10.0.0.1: icmp_seq=22 ttl=255 time=1.748 ms > 64 bytes from 10.0.0.1: icmp_seq=24 ttl=255 time=1.786 ms > ... NOTE THE MISSING PKT 23 ... > 64 bytes from 10.0.0.1: icmp_seq=30 ttl=255 time=1.716 ms > 64 bytes from 10.0.0.1: icmp_seq=31 ttl=255 time=1.750 ms > ^C > --- 10.0.0.1 ping statistics --- > 32 packets transmitted, 31 packets received, 3% packet loss > round-trip min/avg/max = 1.716/1.826/3.646 ms [.....] > Protocol in out > client: COMPD : 31, 32 > server: COMPD : 32, 31 Would you be able to try this with the ppp from -current, -stable or http://www.FreeBSD.org/~brian ? [.....] > #server for tcp connection > tcps: > set device 127.0.0.1:-2400 > set ifaddr 10.0.0.1 10.0.0.2 > > tcpc: > set device 127.0.0.1:2400 > set ifaddr 10.0.0.2 10.0.0.1 ppp.conf.sample in the above versions of ppp has a ppp/tcp example (kicking off ppp -direct from inetd). [.....] > cheers > luigi [.....] -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 20:35:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25605 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:35:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.91.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25549 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:35:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA07002; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:31:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:31:27 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Berlin To: ainvar@enteract.com cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD burners: recommendations? In-Reply-To: <19980307113559.50298@enteract.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Mar 1998 ainvar@enteract.com wrote: > On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 11:17:13PM -0500, Daniel Berlin wrote: > > MP6200s from Ricoh. > > I've gotten that thing to work on every OS known to man. > > And some known only to Aliens (IE Linux for the 3BX$#&@!*#&!@# (it's > > unpronouncable in your hoo-man languages)) > > --DAn > > Really? I haven't been able to accomplish anything with my IDE > version of this drive.... > That's because their expertise was in making scsi drives, or at least that's my view. I think this is one of the first, if no the first, IDE product they have ever had out > FreeBSD doesn't know it. > > The Windows 95 software they include doesn't support Rockridge > extensions, which seems to be required if you want to make a CD > with long filenames (a FreeBSD CD, for example..) Hmm, i wonder if the latest firmware fixed this? One firmware upgrade improved the speed of the scsi from 5x to 6x (by reducing the overhead in scsi access time i guess) > > I haven't tried Linux.. how is its support? I could install > Linux on the Windows 95 machine, then use Linux to create BSD cds.. > but then how would I get Linux installed??-- Linux doesn't support > FTP install and I am not paying $50+ for a copy of linux on a cd.. > What? Both debian and redhat support ftp installs. Having used every os on the planet, let me tell you, i'd rather stick with freebsd. It's better maintained. Or at least, i find it friendlier. --DAn > Their tech support is "unresponsive." > > > On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > > I'm considering getting a CD-ROM burner. Can anybody offer > > > recommendations, war stories or comments? > > > > > > Greg > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 21:15:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29458 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:15:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29452 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:15:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id WAA05856 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:15:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA03010 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:13:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:13:31 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko Reply-To: Marc Slemko To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: kernel wishlist for web server performance Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just a few misc comments regarding what I would want in an OS used for a high performance web server, for anyone who may be considering implementing any of it in the future. Am looking at it from the perspective of designing process and IO models for Apache 2.0. The plan is that Apache 2.0 will be able to make use of all of these things where supported. Decent kernel threads. Async IO (AIO) stuff that works for sockets. A sendfile() (eg. HPUX 11.x) or TransmitFile (eg. WinNT) system call. The key features are: - it can transmit from an arbitrary start position and an arbitrary length. Sending starting from the current position is ok I guess, but requires a mutex to allow multiple threads to start it on the same descriptor at the same time and adds the overhead of a seek. - An AIO version of this system call would be very useful; NT can do this with its completion ports API. This is required to avoid having to dedicate a thread to a connection. An efficient poll(). Has the MCLBYTES chunking/segment size thing been fixed yet? ie. in the 4.4BSD code data is copied in chunks of MCLBYTES and popped on the send queue, but tcp_output doesn't know there is more to come so it generates lots of small segments. ie. you end up with a lot of 832 or 608 byte segments on the network for no reason. Oh, and regarding the problem with slow start and delayed ACKs and writes between 100 and 208 bytes putting two segments on the network, David Borman had this to say: >I know what problem you are referring to, but it is not as you describe >it. For a non-atomic protocol (like TCP) sosend() will allocate a >cluster if the data won't fit in the mbuf, even if it is over by only >one byte. This puts a small amount of data into a cluster. It >doesn't take very many of these small writes until sb->sb_mbcnt bumps >into sb->sb_mbmax, long before sb->sb_cc hits sb->sb_hiwat. So, you >get a socket send buffer without much data to send, which can't accept >any more data from the user. You wind up waiting for the delayed ACKs >from the remote side to clear out buffer space, but it is never enough >to allow you to get 2 full packets out to get past the delayed ACKs! >The problem is that sbcompress() does not compress cluster mbufs, to >avoid excessive data copies. I've modified sbcompress() (in the next >release of BSD/OS) to allow cluster mbufs to be compressed, provided >that all the data can be copied and there is no more than 1/4 of a >cluster to copy. This change allows enough data to be copied down >from the user to get out 2 full packets and thus get past the delayed >ACKs. The benchmark will still run slow because of the tiny writes, >and the extra data copies, but at least it no longer runs an order or >two of magnitude slower than really tiny writes (<= the size of an mbuf). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 21:26:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01390 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:26:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01383 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:26:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08488; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:24:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803080524.VAA08488@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Marc Slemko cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 22:13:31 MST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 21:24:02 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > A sendfile() (eg. HPUX 11.x) or TransmitFile (eg. WinNT) system call. > The key features are: > > - it can transmit from an arbitrary start position and an > arbitrary length. Sending starting from the current position > is ok I guess, but requires a mutex to allow multiple > threads to start it on the same descriptor at the same time and > adds the overhead of a seek. > - An AIO version of this system call would be very useful; > NT can do this with its completion ports API. This is required > to avoid having to dedicate a thread to a connection. How does this differ from mmap/AIOwrite in terms of what it actually achieves? > An efficient poll(). What's inefficient about the current poll()? Thanks for the suggestions, of course. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 21:30:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02230 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:30:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01950 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:29:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA02867; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:29:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803080529.AAA02867@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance In-Reply-To: from Marc Slemko at "Mar 7, 98 10:13:31 pm" To: marcs@znep.com Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:29:29 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Marc Slemko said: > > Decent kernel threads. > Definitely in FreeBSD V3.0. John Birrell and I are doing them. (I have been holding up progress, but will really be in 3.0). > > Async IO (AIO) stuff that works for sockets. > Definitely in FreeBSD V3.0. It is already in -current, modulo 1 or 2 minor bugs, and is already being used by a big database mfg. The FreeBSD AIO API works for every file descriptor, and optimizations can be added incrementally. > > A sendfile() (eg. HPUX 11.x) or TransmitFile (eg. WinNT) system call. > ???? More info ???? > > An efficient poll(). > Don't know. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 21:39:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04037 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:39:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA03986 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:39:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id FAA04388; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:09:21 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199803080409.FAA04388@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: weird problem (lost packets) in iijppp To: brian@Awfulhak.org (Brian Somers) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:09:21 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803080056.AAA19541@awfulhak.org> from "Brian Somers" at Mar 8, 98 00:55:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Would you be able to try this with the ppp from -current, -stable or > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~brian ? downloading the files right now... in any case i did some more tests yesterday night, and every time i have a lost reply the "miss" or "uncompress" (depending on the direction) counts below increase: PPP ON prova> show compress Out: 780 (compress) / 909 (total) 14 (miss) / 300 (search) In: 819 (compress), 107 (uncompress) 0 (error), 0 (tossed) I have no idea if this only happens with ICMP packets or also with regular traffic. Speaking of ppp, i was wondering if you are also looking at the memory allocation used in the program. It seems to do a few malloc() on each packets (one for the header, one for the payload... and this appears kind of useless since the queues are short anyways and using a fixed array would be probably much more efficient. Also, would you like to help in implementing the 'preemption' feature that i had in mind ? The basic idea would be to define some negotiable mechanism (e.g. HDLC_ESC+something) to suspend/resume transmission of a packet when there is a higher-priority one. This would be used to improve interactive response when you also have background bulk traffic. Of course one has to be careful in the interaction with the "pred1" compression. This mechanism could also be useful (assuming it's not already there) with parallel ppp connections, since it would allow you to spread a packet on a number of parallel links. cheers luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 21:42:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04508 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:42:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04472 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:42:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id WAA06433; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:42:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA03177; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:40:03 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:40:02 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: Mike Smith cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > A sendfile() (eg. HPUX 11.x) or TransmitFile (eg. WinNT) system call. > > The key features are: > > > > - it can transmit from an arbitrary start position and an > > arbitrary length. Sending starting from the current position > > is ok I guess, but requires a mutex to allow multiple > > threads to start it on the same descriptor at the same time and > > adds the overhead of a seek. > > - An AIO version of this system call would be very useful; > > NT can do this with its completion ports API. This is required > > to avoid having to dedicate a thread to a connection. > > How does this differ from mmap/AIOwrite in terms of what it actually > achieves? Because you more easily do copy avoidance. The idea is that it will copy data out of the buffer cache to the network without any data copies in the middle, ie. to mbufs. Trying to implement this using traditional calls is possible, but can get ugly and involves some tradeoffs. With a sendfile(), the memory for the socket buffer goes away and the kernel can essentially copy data directly from the buffer cache. Combine that with a file handle cache of frequently accessed files in the server, and you no longer have to open and close files, and sending the response is a single syscall that goes from the buffer cache to the network. While you can easily make a wrapper that has the same external view in user space there is no point because performance sucks. Also, many systems have troubles with large write()s so you have to split them up. > > > An efficient poll(). > > What's inefficient about the current poll()? I have no idea; haven't looked. All I mean is a real poll that doesn't just hack on top of select but is implemented the logical way for poll to be done. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 21:47:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05401 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA05391 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:46:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id FAA04413; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:16:47 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199803080416.FAA04413@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance To: marcs@znep.com Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:16:46 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Marc Slemko" at Mar 7, 98 10:13:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Just a few misc comments regarding what I would want in an OS used for a > high performance web server, for anyone who may be considering ... > A sendfile() (eg. HPUX 11.x) or TransmitFile (eg. WinNT) system call. > The key features are: > - it can transmit from an arbitrary start position and an > arbitrary length. Sending starting from the current position why do you want it to be a syscall ? Can't you mmap() the file and then issue a large write() to save the copy ? (and having AIO might also save you from using a separate thread...) cheers luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 21:47:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05482 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:47:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05472; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:47:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id WAA06617; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:47:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA03214; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:45:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:45:14 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: "John S. Dyson" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance In-Reply-To: <199803080529.AAA02867@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > A sendfile() (eg. HPUX 11.x) or TransmitFile (eg. WinNT) system call. > > > ???? More info ???? Give it a file descriptor. Give it a socket. Give it some header and trailer info. The contents of the header, the descriptor, then the trailer magically go to the network without having to diddle around trying to do copy avoidance in the kernel between write and the socket buffers. > > > > An efficient poll(). > > > Don't know. Probably already there. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 21:55:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07198 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:55:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07172 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:55:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id WAA06843; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:55:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA03282; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:53:20 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:53:20 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: Luigi Rizzo cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance In-Reply-To: <199803080416.FAA04413@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > Just a few misc comments regarding what I would want in an OS used for a > > high performance web server, for anyone who may be considering > ... > > A sendfile() (eg. HPUX 11.x) or TransmitFile (eg. WinNT) system call. > > The key features are: > > - it can transmit from an arbitrary start position and an > > arbitrary length. Sending starting from the current position > > why do you want it to be a syscall ? Can't you mmap() the file and then > issue a large write() to save the copy ? (and having AIO might also > save you from using a separate thread...) In addition to the other followups I posted on this, see: ftp://ftp.cup.hp.com/dist/networking/briefs/copyavoid.pdf for a few comments on HPUX. This is an old paper so it doesn't talk about sendfile() at all, just about the problems of copy avoidance using write(). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 21:56:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07363 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:56:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07358 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:56:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08633; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:54:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803080554.VAA08633@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Marc Slemko cc: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 22:40:02 MST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 21:54:12 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > A sendfile() (eg. HPUX 11.x) or TransmitFile (eg. WinNT) system call. ... > > How does this differ from mmap/AIOwrite in terms of what it actually > > achieves? > > Because you more easily do copy avoidance. The idea is that it will copy > data out of the buffer cache to the network without any data copies in the > middle, ie. to mbufs. Trying to implement this using traditional calls is > possible, but can get ugly and involves some tradeoffs. With a > sendfile(), the memory for the socket buffer goes away and the kernel can > essentially copy data directly from the buffer cache. > > Combine that with a file handle cache of frequently accessed files in the > server, and you no longer have to open and close files, and sending the > response is a single syscall that goes from the buffer cache to the > network. This smacks of being a grubby hack to avoid dealing with performance problems in the host operating system. > While you can easily make a wrapper that has the same external view in > user space there is no point because performance sucks. Also, many > systems have troubles with large write()s so you have to split them up. Well, FreeBSD obviously isn't "most systems". I'm curious as to whether performance in that case "sucks" too - what you describe is basically what an FTP server does, and wcarchive should give you some idea as to how well that works already. I appreciate the conceptual niceness of what you're describing, but I guess I'm not convinced that something like that would be worth the cruft and effort involved. To my mind, the biggest win is in not having to do anything about the write until it has completed (or failed), and for this AIO is adequate. Perhaps that would be better worded differently: Do you have specific test results that indicate that, on FreeBSD, it is unacceptably inefficient to mmap/AIOwrite? Or is it the case that on some platforms it is, and you want to keep Apache as simple as possible in this regard (ie. have specific HTTP-transmit-file system calls everywhere)? > > > An efficient poll(). > > > > What's inefficient about the current poll()? > > I have no idea; haven't looked. All I mean is a real poll that doesn't > just hack on top of select but is implemented the logical way for poll to > be done. And what's that? The poll(2) implementation in 3.0 is based on the NetBSD poll(2), AFAIR. It certainly has different internal semantics, although the two do achieve basically the same thing. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 21:59:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07974 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:59:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07965; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:59:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08664; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:57:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803080557.VAA08664@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Marc Slemko cc: "John S. Dyson" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 22:45:14 MST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 21:57:55 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > > > > A sendfile() (eg. HPUX 11.x) or TransmitFile (eg. WinNT) system call. > > > > > ???? More info ???? > > Give it a file descriptor. Give it a socket. Give it some header and > trailer info. The contents of the header, the descriptor, then the > trailer magically go to the network without having to diddle around trying > to do copy avoidance in the kernel between write and the socket buffers. Ah, I think the substance of the mail you quoted in your earlier message makes more sense now. I'm inclined to feel that adding a new system call to work around problems in other parts of the system is less than optimal. At least, something says to me that fixing the problem first might save lots of work later. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 22:15:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10093 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:15:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10063 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:15:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id XAA07286; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:15:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA03429; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:12:53 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:12:52 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko Reply-To: Marc Slemko To: Mike Smith cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance In-Reply-To: <199803080554.VAA08633@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > > A sendfile() (eg. HPUX 11.x) or TransmitFile (eg. WinNT) system call. > ... > > > How does this differ from mmap/AIOwrite in terms of what it actually > > > achieves? > > > > Because you more easily do copy avoidance. The idea is that it will copy > > data out of the buffer cache to the network without any data copies in the > > middle, ie. to mbufs. Trying to implement this using traditional calls is > > possible, but can get ugly and involves some tradeoffs. With a > > sendfile(), the memory for the socket buffer goes away and the kernel can > > essentially copy data directly from the buffer cache. > > > > Combine that with a file handle cache of frequently accessed files in the > > server, and you no longer have to open and close files, and sending the > > response is a single syscall that goes from the buffer cache to the > > network. > > This smacks of being a grubby hack to avoid dealing with performance > problems in the host operating system. I don't think so. Trying to do anything else is an ugly hack. See the HP paper I mentioned for some of the details on why. Let me put it this way: how else do you propose to do copy avoidance to avoid an extra copy going into the mbufs? The data must go from the buffer cache to the network without any copy other than to the network card itself. Why is your other method of doing this any less of a hack? > > While you can easily make a wrapper that has the same external view in > > user space there is no point because performance sucks. Also, many > > systems have troubles with large write()s so you have to split them up. > > Well, FreeBSD obviously isn't "most systems". I'm curious as to > whether performance in that case "sucks" too - what you describe is > basically what an FTP server does, and wcarchive should give you some > idea as to how well that works already. Just because it sucks doesn't mean it can't be fast. Efficiency is relative. I don't know how David's ftp server does its stuff or how many copies it ends up going through. > I appreciate the conceptual niceness of what you're describing, but I > guess I'm not convinced that something like that would be worth the > cruft and effort involved. > > To my mind, the biggest win is in not having to do anything about the > write until it has completed (or failed), and for this AIO is adequate. Yes, although I have heard somewhat convincing arguments that on hardware with good enough support for context switching between threads, you don't actually gain that much (if anything) from AIO over just creating more threads. I'm not really convinced though, and it is highly dependent on how the OS implements that stuff. > Perhaps that would be better worded differently: Do you have specific > test results that indicate that, on FreeBSD, it is unacceptably > inefficient to mmap/AIOwrite? Or is it the case that on some > platforms it is, and you want to keep Apache as simple as possible in > this regard (ie. have specific HTTP-transmit-file system calls > everywhere)? But it isn't HTTP specific. It is really quite generic. In fact, the way I hope the Apache 2.0 process and IO model comes together, it will provide a good framework for any high performance network server. mmap+AIO will probably be done anyway, since not all OSes support a sendfile() type thing, so it isn't a matter of trying to avoid anything. Any advanced IO of this form is horribly platform specific anyway. Well, implement sendfile() and I will give you some results. No, I have no actual results just the comments at the start of this message about how else do you do copy avoidance. > > > > > An efficient poll(). > > > > > > What's inefficient about the current poll()? > > > > I have no idea; haven't looked. All I mean is a real poll that doesn't > > just hack on top of select but is implemented the logical way for poll to > > be done. > > And what's that? The poll(2) implementation in 3.0 is based on the > NetBSD poll(2), AFAIR. It certainly has different internal semantics, > although the two do achieve basically the same thing. Just that it doesn't end up going through FD_SET stuff so it doesn't have the overhead on sparse fd sets. While you would be ill-advised to listen to anything they say, some MS docs on their TransmitFile are at: http://premium.microsoft.com/msdn/library/sdkdoc/wsapiref_3pwy.htm http://premium.microsoft.com/msdn/library/conf/html/sa8ff.htm Note the benchmark results. They don't mean that the technique is always faster, since implementation has a lot to do with it, but do provide some data. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 22:29:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12080 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:29:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12051 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:29:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id XAA07622; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:29:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA03519; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:26:55 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:26:55 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: Mike Smith cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance In-Reply-To: <199803080554.VAA08633@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > this regard (ie. have specific HTTP-transmit-file system calls > everywhere)? Now, if you want to talk about HTTP-transmit-file calls and things being specialized for just one protocol, I was actually joking about that earlier today. HTTP-NG, which is currently under very initial development, will almost certainly allow for multiplexed transfers. ie. multiple documents multiplexed over a single TCP connection. A draft spec for that part is at: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/MUX/WD-mux-971203.html Now, consider how to efficiently implement sending small fragments (in SMUX, a fragment is a contiguous bit of data from one of the multiplexed streams in the TCP connection) on the server. With the obvious ways, all these efficiency gains go out the window. So, to get around that, I was joking that an Apache LKM to implement MUX would probably help. No, I'm not really serious because it is such a lame thing to do and has horrible portability. But... this problem is probably going to come up in the future, and I'm still trying to see about efficient ways of doing it. Sigh. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 23:28:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18650 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA18642; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id GAA04603; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 06:58:29 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199803080558.GAA04603@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 06:58:29 +0100 (MET) Cc: marcs@znep.com, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803080557.VAA08664@dingo.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Mar 7, 98 09:57:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Give it a file descriptor. Give it a socket. Give it some header and > > trailer info. The contents of the header, the descriptor, then the > > trailer magically go to the network without having to diddle around trying > > to do copy avoidance in the kernel between write and the socket buffers. > using mmap, right now i think you have two copies, one from the write to the socket buffer, the other one when assembling the output packet from the socket buffer in a form that can be directly DMA-ed by the network card. I don't think it is trivial to save both copies without heavy dependencies on the network adapter and considering that you don't know beforehand how big your packets will have to be (ok, in 90% of the cases you know, assuming you don't hit patological situations with window sizes etc.) Furthermore, consider that on modern machines these copies might run at some 250Mbytes/s or faster, i.e. one order of magnitude faster than network/disk speed. All in all, i don't think it is worth the effort. cheers luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 23:29:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18782 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:29:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA18777 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:29:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id GAA04619; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 06:59:24 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199803080559.GAA04619@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: weird problem (lost packets) in iijppp To: brian@Awfulhak.org (Brian Somers) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 06:59:24 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199803080056.AAA19541@awfulhak.org> from "Brian Somers" at Mar 8, 98 00:55:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Would you be able to try this with the ppp from -current, -stable or > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~brian ? well the problem seems not to occur in the version i got from your URL above... cheers luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 23:30:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18994 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:30:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18952 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:30:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA24535; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:21:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "current1.whistle.com" via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd024520; Sat Mar 7 23:20:59 1998 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:16:43 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Marc Slemko cc: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Let me put it this way: how else do you propose to do copy avoidance to > avoid an extra copy going into the mbufs? The data must go from the > buffer cache to the network without any copy other than to the network > card itself. Why is your other method of doing this any less of a hack? [...] I would like to add here that in FreeBSD's unified VM/Buffer cache, a mmapped file IS the buffer cache so that a send() from an mmapped file IS copying direct fromt he buffer cache. Ther eis ONE copy.. that from the buffer cache, into the mbuf. (assuming that the data got into the memory via DMA in the first place..) you may need to have a subprocess go through and tuch all the pages to get them into ram first.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 7 23:51:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21599 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:51:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA21587 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:51:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA09061; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:48:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803080748.XAA09061@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Julian Elischer cc: Marc Slemko , Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 23:16:43 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 23:48:52 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I would like to add here that in FreeBSD's unified VM/Buffer cache, > a mmapped file IS the buffer cache > so that a send() from an mmapped file IS copying direct fromt he buffer > cache. Ther eis ONE copy.. that from the buffer cache, into the mbuf. > > (assuming that the data got into the memory via DMA in the first place..) > you may need to have a subprocess go through and tuch all the pages to > get them into ram first.. The copyin will do this. This is why I couldn't see a real performance benefit outside of the convenience factor, and the mbuf shuffling alluded to. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 8 00:04:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24232 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:04:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24221 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:04:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA09131; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:02:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803080802.AAA09131@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Marc Slemko cc: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel wishlist for web server performance In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Mar 1998 23:26:55 MST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 00:02:07 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > this regard (ie. have specific HTTP-transmit-file system calls > > everywhere)? > > Now, if you want to talk about HTTP-transmit-file calls and things being > specialized for just one protocol, I was actually joking about that > earlier today. > > HTTP-NG, which is currently under very initial development, will > almost certainly allow for multiplexed transfers. ie. multiple > documents multiplexed over a single TCP connection. Ugh. Why multiplex over an already-multiplexing protocol? This sounds like yet another attempt at trying to get around a problem with a new solution rather than fixing the original one. > Now, consider how to efficiently implement sending small fragments > (in SMUX, a fragment is a contiguous bit of data from one of the > multiplexed streams in the TCP connection) on the server. With > the obvious ways, all these efficiency gains go out the window. > So, to get around that, I was joking that an Apache LKM to implement > MUX would probably help. No, I'm not really serious because > it is such a lame thing to do and has horrible portability. But... > this problem is probably going to come up in the future, and I'm > still trying to see about efficient ways of doing it. Sigh. Heh. What you want is to always stuff your datagrams out, either with more data (hang back a bit) or with junk. Call it "synchronous TCP". 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message