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Date:      Wed, 6 May 2020 11:57:19 +0200
From:      Polytropon <>
To:        Aryeh Friedman <>
Cc:        Shamim Shahriar <>, FreeBSD Mailing List <>
Subject:   Re: bsd install
Message-ID:  <>
In-Reply-To: <>
References:  <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>

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On Wed, 6 May 2020 04:59:14 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote:
> It almost certainly does not help to have your attitude towards beginners
> with thinking like this, which luckily is not everyone on the list, no
> wonder FreeBSD has the reputation it has for being unfriendly (I would
> agree it is not a OS meant for beginners it doesn't mean we should push
> them away).

In my opinion and experience, the FreeBSD community is one
of the friendliest (!) I have encountered so far. Where does
the reputation of being unfriendly come from? I'm not asking
this in any kind of impolite tone, I'm really interested in
who thinks and says this community is unfriendly...

> This is the beginners list, after all, according to the Handbook -- not one
> of the more specialized lists where expectations of RTFM are more
> appropriate.  Note that even on other lists the OP is being treated with a
> much more open mind (ex. see his bhyve thread on -virtualization@)

Don't confuse friendliness with endless tolerance of rude
behaviour. Even for a beginners' list, there is the common
suggestion of "doing your homework", as well as maintaining
a certain discussion culture. Aspects of this are part of
what is widely understood as "netiquette". Just allow me to
mention a few things that I find problematic:

 - messages with the question (or just bullet points) in
   the subject, no body

 - messages with no subject, just a short question or state-
   ment in the body

 - not mentioning the OS version, program version, or hardware
   brand and model the question is about

 - not providing what has been done, and what the result was

 - not accepting the "posting rules" of the list (here: inline
   replies, shortening and summarizing possible)

Yes, I know: If someone can only access your mail with some
dysfunctional smartphone app that was obviously made for people
who have no clue what they're doing, then following all those
suggestions can be quite problematic. But again, if you seek
help for free (i. e., paid by others' time!), you should first
make sure your communication equipment is compatible. Everything
else just leads to follow-up questions and guesswork, and that
has never been a good foundation.

As you said, RTFM is just a part of the whole "homework", but
it's also an important one. Not being able to understand all
terminology and everything mentioned is not a problem. But
not _trying_ might be...

Blindly followint things mentioned in the handbook and other
places usually does not lead to everything magically working,
especially if the stuff mentioned there doesn't even apply to
the current setting, or doesn't apply anymore. In my opinion,
there are certain readers who will follow a structured manual
in the form of "if X then A else B" by doing A _and_ B (just
in the order as they are listed, not even looking at condition
X), and then start complaining. I don't know if this applies
here; not enough information, does not compute. ;-)

Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...

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