Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:07:58 +0100 From: Doug Rabson <dfr@rabson.org> To: Danny Braniss <danny@cs.huji.ac.il> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Jeremy Chadwick <koitsu@FreeBSD.org>, Mike Meyer <mwm-keyword-freebsdhackers2.e313df@mired.org> Subject: Re: continuous backup solution for FreeBSD Message-ID: <12DB2D13-1F6F-4CA5-B583-CCDD678419FF@rabson.org> In-Reply-To: <E1KocK0-000DEX-PV@cs1.cs.huji.ac.il> References: <200810091411.m99EB0Vo007538@lurza.secnetix.de> <20081010023428.87556dt18ejyzf48@mail.ispro.net> <20081009200641.60d0b236@bhuda.mired.org> <48EF5052.2000707@ispro.net> <20081010144111.GA34609@icarus.home.lan> <20081010112952.52b8209b@bhuda.mired.org> <20081010154249.GA35859@icarus.home.lan> <20081010122228.355c2c3e@bhuda.mired.org> <E1Koboa-000CyO-8l@cs1.cs.huji.ac.il> <20081011104409.GA58698@icarus.home.lan> <E1KocK0-000DEX-PV@cs1.cs.huji.ac.il>
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On 11 Oct 2008, at 12:07, Danny Braniss wrote: >> On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:35:16PM +0200, Danny Braniss wrote: >>>> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:42:49 -0700 >>>> Jeremy Chadwick <koitsu@FreeBSD.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:29:52AM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote: >>>>>> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:41:11 -0700 >>>>>> Jeremy Chadwick <koitsu@FreeBSD.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 03:53:38PM +0300, Evren Yurtesen wrote: >>>>>>>> Mike Meyer wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:34:28 +0300 >>>>>>>>> yurtesen@ispro.net wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Quoting "Oliver Fromme" <olli@lurza.secnetix.de>: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> These features are readily available right now on FreeBSD. >>>>>>>>>>> You don't have to code anything. >>>>>>>>>> Well with 2 downsides, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Once you actually try and implement these solutions, you'll >>>>>>>>> see that >>>>>>>>> your "downsides" are largely figments of your imagination. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So if it is my imagination, how can I actually convert UFS to >>>>>>>> ZFS >>>>>>>> easily? Everybody seems to say that this is easy and that is >>>>>>>> easy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's not that easy. I really don't know why people are >>>>>>> telling you it >>>>>>> is. >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe because it is? Of course, it *does* require a little prior >>>>>> planning, but anyone with more than a few months experience as a >>>>>> sysadmin should be able to deal with it without to much hassle. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Converting some filesystems are easier than others; /home (if >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> create one) for example is generally easy: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1) ZFS fs is called foo/home, mounted as /mnt >>>>>>> 2) fstat, ensure nothing is using /home -- if something is, >>>>>>> shut it >>>>>>> down or kill it >>>>>>> 3) rsync or cpdup /home files to /mnt >>>>>>> 4) umount /home >>>>>>> 5) zfs set mountpoint=/home foo/home >>>>>>> 6) Restart said processes or daemons >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "See! It's like I said! EASY!" You can do this with /var as >>>>>>> well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yup. Of course, if you've done it that way, you're not thinking >>>>>> ahead, >>>>>> because: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Now try /usr. Hope you've got /rescue available, because >>>>>>> once /usr/lib >>>>>>> and /usr/libexec disappear, you're in trouble. Good luck >>>>>>> doing this in >>>>>>> multi-user, too. >>>>>> >>>>>> Oops. You F'ed up. If you'd done a little planning, you would >>>>>> have >>>>>> realized that / and /usr would be a bit of extra trouble, and >>>>>> planned >>>>>> accordingly. >>>>>> >>>>>>> And finally, the root fs. Whoever says "this is easy" is >>>>>>> kidding >>>>>>> themselves; it's a pain. >>>>>> >>>>>> Um, no, it wasn't. Of course, I've been doing this long enough >>>>>> to have >>>>>> a system set up to make this kind of thing easy. My system disk >>>>>> is on >>>>>> a mirror, and I do system upgrades by breaking the mirror and >>>>>> upgrading one disk, making everything work, then putting the >>>>>> mirror >>>>>> back together. And moving to zfs on root is a lot like a system >>>>>> upgrade: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1) Break the mirror (mirrors actually, as I mirrored file >>>>>> systems). >>>>>> 2) Repartition the unused drive into /boot, swap & data >>>>>> 3) Build zfs & /boot according to the instructions on ZFSOnRoot >>>>>> wiki, just copying /boot and / at this point. >>>>>> 4) Boot the zfs disk in single user mode. >>>>>> 5) If 4 fails, boot back to the ufs disk so you're operational >>>>>> while >>>>>> you contemplate what went wrong, then repeat step 3. >>>>>> Otherwise, go >>>>>> on to step 6. >>>>>> 6) Create zfs file systems as appropriate (given that zfs file >>>>>> systems are cheap, and have lots of cool features that ufs >>>>>> file systems don't have, you probably want to create more than >>>>>> you had before, doing thing like putting SQL serves on their >>>>>> own file system with appropriate blocking, etc, but you'll >>>>>> want to >>>>>> have figured all this out before starting step 1). >>>>>> 7) Copy data from the ufs file systems to their new homes, >>>>>> not forgetting to take them out of /etc/fstab. >>>>>> 8) Reboot on the zfs disk. >>>>>> 9) Test until you're happy that everything is working properly, >>>>>> and be prepared to reboot on the ufs disk if something is >>>>>> broken. >>>>>> 10) Reformat the ufs disk to match the zfs one. Gmirror /boot, >>>>>> add the data partition to the zfs pool so it's mirrored, and >>>>>> you should have already been using swap. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is 10 steps to your "easy" 6, but two of the extra steps are >>>>>> testing you didn't include, and 1 of the steps is a failure >>>>>> recovery >>>>>> step that shouldn't be necessary. So - one more step than your >>>>>> easy >>>>>> process. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, the part you seem to be (intentionally?) forgetting: >>>>> most >>>>> people are not using gmirror. There is no 2nd disk. They have >>>>> one disk >>>>> with a series of UFS2 filesystems, and they want to upgrade. >>>>> That's how >>>>> I read Evren's "how do I do this? You say it's easy..." comment, >>>>> and I >>>>> think his viewpoint is very reasonable. >>>> >>>> Granted, most people don't think about system upgrades when they >>>> build >>>> a system, so they wind up having to do extra work. In particular, >>>> Evren is talking about spending thousands of dollars on proprietary >>>> software, not to mention the cost of the server that all this >>>> data is >>>> going to flow to, for a backup solution. Compared to that, the >>>> cost of >>>> a few spare disks and the work to install them are trivial. >>>> >>>>>> Yeah, this isn't something you do on a whim. On the other hand, >>>>>> it's >>>>>> not something that any competent sysadmin would consider a >>>>>> pain. For a >>>>>> good senior admin, it's a lot easier than doing an OS upgrade >>>>>> from >>>>>> source, which should be the next step up from trivial. >>>>> I guess you have a very different definition of "easy". :-) >>>> >>>> Given that mine is based on years of working with the kinds of >>>> backup >>>> solutions that Evren is asking for: ones that an enterprise deploys >>>> for backing up a data center, the answer may well be "yes". >>>> >>>>> The above procedure, in no way shape or form, will be classified >>>>> as >>>>> "easy" by the user (or even junior sysadmin) community, I can >>>>> assure you >>>>> of that. >>>> >>>> I never said it would be easy for a user. Then again, your average >>>> user doesn't do backups, and wouldn't know a continuous backup >>>> solution from a credit default swap. We're not talking about >>>> ghosting >>>> a disk partition for a backup, we're talking about enterprise-level >>>> backup solutions for data centers. People deploying those kinds of >>>> solutions tend to have multiple senior sysadmins around. >>>> >>>> I wouldn't expect a junior admin to call it easy. At least, not the >>>> first two or three times. If they still have problems with it after >>>> that, they should find a new career path, as they aren't ever >>>> going to >>>> advance beyond junior. >>>> >>>>> I'll also throw this in the mix: the fact that we are >>>>> *expecting* users >>>>> to know how to do this is unreasonable. It's even *more* rude >>>>> to expect >>>> >>>> Um, is anyone expecting users to do this? I'm not. ZFS is still >>>> marked >>>> as "experimental" in FreeBSD. That means that, among other things, >>>> it's not really well-supported by the installer, etc. Nuts, as of >>>> January of this year, there wasn't an operating system on the >>>> planet >>>> that would install and boot from ZFS. >>>> >>>> I'm willing to jump through some hoops to get ZFS's advantages. >>>> Those >>>> happen to include some things that go a long way to solving >>>> Zefren's >>>> problems, so it was suggested as the basis for such (not by me, >>>> mind >>>> you). Having done the conversion, and found it easy, I responded >>>> when >>>> he asked how hard it was. >>>> >>>> But I'd never recommend this for your average user - which pretty >>>> much >>>> excludes anyone contemplating continuous backup solutions. >>>> >>>>> that mid-level or senior SAs have to do >>>> it "the hard way". Why? I'll >>>>> explain: >>>>> >>>>> I'm an SA of 16+ years. I'm quite familiar with PBR/MBR, >>>>> general disk >>>>> partitioning, sectors vs. blocks, slices, filesystems, and >>>>> whatever >>>>> else. You want me to do it by hand, say, with bsdlabel -e? >>>>> Fine, I >>>>> will -- but I will not be happy about it. I have the knowledge, I >>>>> know how to do it, so why must the process continue to be a PITA >>>>> and >>>>> waste my time? >>>> >>>> Did I ever mention bsdlabel? But in any case, ZFS makes pretty much >>>> *all* that crap obsolete. You still have to deal with getting a >>>> boot >>>> loader installed, but after that, you never have to worry about >>>> partitioning, blocks, sectors, or slices again - until you go to an >>>> operating system that doesn't have ZFS. >>> >>> so can Freebsd boot off a ZFS root? in stable? current? ... >> >> boot0 doesn't apply here; it cares about what's at sector 0 on the >> disk, not filesystems. >> >> boot2/loader does not speak ZFS -- this is why you need the /boot >> UFS2 >> partition. This is an annoyance. >> >> For the final "stage/step", vfs.root.mountfrom="zfs:mypool/root" in >> loader.conf will cause FreeBSD to mount the root filesystem from ZFS. >> This works fine. > > so the answer is: > yes, if you have only one disk. > no, if you have ZFS over many disks > > because I see no advantage in the springboard solution where ZFS is > used to > cover several disks. > > I'm asking, because I want to deploy some zfs fileservers soon, and so > far the solution is either PXE boot, or keep one disk UFS (or boot > off a USB) > Today's /(root+usr) is somewhere between .5 to 1Gb(kernel+debug+src), > and is readonly, so having 1 disk UFS seems to be a pitty. ZFS boot is coming. Currently its part of pjd's perforce branch and supports disks, mirrors and collections of disks or mirrors with the only restriction being that enough drives in the pool must be accessible from the bios (i.e. at least one element of a mirror must be seen by the bios). Currently we don't support booting from raidz or raidz2 pools but there is no fundamental reason why that can't be added - someone just needs to implement the code to understand the raidz layout.
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