From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 13 17:44:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A260637B400; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 17:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vectors.cx (manifold.vectors.cx [64.163.147.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27F7743E4A; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 17:44:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from monkey@vectors.cx) Received: from vectors.cx (08ae269941161a15fb8827a30af11dcc@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vectors.cx (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g7E0jF2e098590; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 17:45:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from monkey@vectors.cx) Received: (from monkey@localhost) by vectors.cx (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) id g7E0jFQP098589; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 17:45:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from monkey) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 17:45:15 -0700 From: Adam Weinberger To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed Message-ID: <20020814004515.GX2818@vectors.cx> References: <1631.192.168.1.10.1028329834.squirrel@email.unixhideout.com> <20020802194944.R95370-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <2534.192.168.1.10.1028334913.squirrel@email.unixhideout.com> <20020803004445.GA11182@branwen.sfo.geekhouse.net> <1029285313.20421.187.camel@lohr.digitalglobe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1029285313.20421.187.camel@lohr.digitalglobe.com> X-Editor: Vim 6.1 http://www.vim.org X-Mailer: Mutt 1.5 http://www.mutt.org X-URL: http://www.vectors.cx http://www.crackula.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org this email belongs on freebsd-advocacy, not freebsd-questions nor freebsd-chat. -Adam >> (08.13.2002 @ 1735 PST): John-David Childs said, in 5.9K: << > I was going to let this thread by, but I just can't help it. > > I've been using FreeBSD for almost eight years. Unfortunately, I > haven't been able to contribute as much as I'd like...I keep thinking > that someday soon this will change, especially as I get more and more > pissed at the holier than thou attitude of most people on the questions > and stable lists (as referenced by the example below). > > If you like FreeBSD because it's a niche OS that no one else you work > with knows, or it makes you kewl, or you think it gives you job > security, or you like the little devil, press delete now. If you like > FreeBSD because the VM rocks, the ports/packages system kicks a$$, or > the (until recently) excruciatingly close scrutiny of MFC'd patches and > security issues, and you believe you have a civic duty to "show them the > way", then you're the audience I'm addressing. > > Plain and simple...the reason that Linux is used by 10 people (I'm > probably massively underestimating) for every FreeBSD user (not counting > Apple's marketing campaign) has NOTHING to do with whether it's a better > OS. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that Linux is easier to > install *and maintain* than FreeBSD...and most responses on the > questions/stable lists seem to think that's ok ("let the idiots use > Linux, the people who know use *BSD"). The problem with that thinking > is that if "no one" (term used loosely) uses *BSD, then > > 1) getting a user-base large enough to effectively trouble-shoot/improve > the OS becomes difficult. If an up-and-coming programmer/hacker is > looking ahead to which OS is likely to land them a job...it's not going > to be Free/Open/NetBSD. > > 2) getting driver support from commercial entities is next to > impossible. If there aren't enough users to justify demand, it isn't > going to be (cost) effective to write/support it. > > 3) getting support to install it as a server OS in medium-large > (especially non-ISP) based businesses is next to impossible. While *BSD > may have scored some initial successes, and Apple's support of BSD is > admirable (but Apple has always been considered a "niche" player, and > has fsckd-up more "initiatives" than I can count), most corporate > managers whose jobs are on the line will ask themselves "If the shit > hits the fan...". > > Less users = less admins = less programmers = less (corporate) support = > less installations = less demand = less users = > > Granted...I don't want any of the *BSD's to become a RedHat behemoth, > but I would like to not have cream pie thrown in my face every time I > suggest a FreeBSD server. Five years ago, when *BSD and Linux were > roughly neck and neck, it wasn't that hard to sell *BSD on technical > merits. Now...it's all about who will support it when I get hit by a > truck. How easy is it to set up? How easy is it (compared to Linux, > Solaris, SGI, AIX, HPUX, etc) to install and administrate? Can it do > clusters? Can it (natively) participate in a SAN? Is there a > commercial package for VLAN support? How 'bout a commercial firewall? > (Yes, I know and you know that ipf/ipfw/TIS does the job, but once we > leave the company the next admin either has to spend days/weeks learning > ipf/ipfw or s/he'll trash it immediately, bad-mouthing your stupid > decisions all the way up the management chain). > > And it all starts with a (relatively) easy to use installer (sysinstall > has gotten MUCH better, but still has too many ways to get lost in > TABS/ESC/whoops and still looks infantile to other text-based > installers), and at least the option for a workstation install (not a > "instant workstation" port, which could take hours or days to > compile/install, but an out-of-the-CD installation of Gnome or KDE with > (or without, by choice) popular options (Evolution, > OpenOfffice/Abiword+Gnumeric, etc)). And yes, a "dummy-fied" package > upgrader like RedHat Updater or MandrakeUpdate (which friggin rocks when > you have to update 50 machines across an enterprise). > > BSD'ers have always been a finicky lot, and have always preferred the > RTFM/do-it-yourself approach. That's great...to a point...but > eventually will relegate us to the land of A/UX, CP/M, and OS/2 (now > there's a niche player). "You decide which is right, and which is an > illusion." > > As requested, replies are redirected to freebsd-chat. I'm going to see > about getting some "official" time to work on the installer, or the > docs, or both. Replies directly to my address will be /dev/nulled > because of the list spam collectors...those of you who "know" will be > able to find me :-) > -- > > John-David Childs (JC612) Enterprise Internet Solutions > Systems Administration 9616 Pecos St, Thornton CO 80260 > & Network Engineering A fourth .sig line is a waste! > > > On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 18:44, Jim Mock wrote: > > On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 at 20:35:13 -0400, Mike wrote: > > > > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Mike wrote: > > > >> Stick with videos.. Please. -- > > > > > > > > Very funny. You mean "videoconferencing." And anyways, there is an > > > > expression: "The best of both worlds," you know? > > > > > > "videoconferencing." > > > It's two words. Not one. > > > I know all about you. Your all about SPAM. Besides, ask a stupid > > > question > > > > That would be "You're". If you're going to flame him for > > "videoconferencing" at least spell shit right otherwise you end up > > looking even more stupid than you did for flaming him in the first > > place. > > > > > get a stupid answer. you know? At least get a decent name for this > > > FreeBSD os you want to chop into linux and make it so any sweaty wife > > > beating greaseball can run a "Server" > > > > Enough already. Take this nonsense off list if you want to have a > > bitchfest. There's enough mail that comes through here without having > > to scrape through this garbage too. > > > > - jim > > > > -- > > jim mock jim@FreeBSD.org > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > >> end of "Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed" from John-David Childs << -- "Oh good, my dog found the chainsaw." -Lilo, "Lilo & Stitch" Adam Weinberger adam@vectors.cx http://vectors.cx To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message