From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 07:44:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02BAE2AAE3F for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:44:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4978TB75jGz4c5c for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:44:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id t12so4627507ile.9 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 00:44:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=B39GikBW/1pVFAhTJqPG7Jk1p2F64n+z+z6h6Oy92tw=; b=Sx0XD0wdg/PtST8q7JSsmHdKtBxaFOA4KEuiICkK+6z6Iz2r0STI7ToOLnUmIPbfr6 uOjbp0ymdY1Wx8akVL7fUjEUSRebomwbryUjs2blJncYzRIt7k0QBerZ8qXcpWewVdHE l/NkWGNEsHCVGVLhOab9AiXhowwA8ouXKSdBxGIimcvfbOsZepAbuQdGEregjrFcJzGX bgeW3ofvS5ypeIb1X6bd57lfNs6858EcyQCz+f7gir//k4tKbo4ypyl2sDiZkjAoRQYZ BKgtN/EzD95ecVLbOSiMn8d4ts4iJ3rIhpmoLqfhILvmodgf+K5+3y2YhbQNuXxl8HZ5 36jw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=B39GikBW/1pVFAhTJqPG7Jk1p2F64n+z+z6h6Oy92tw=; b=OEg6DCsLcBZ1Db4ZjzAyP0Cm3cdvWEzr4hbGpPlE26nRC8s4dg+for7aE5y4nkDnAY TZ1fdpn+MNjZb+cxGajPhAjQC4Y/EUKIQdXTrEhEkY71t1ZLkldfJrEBU8dtadZCgGKi IZnXq+Mwm5e/gRMvM8N3F6NbRKASTOaHvxWMfJLaL7eOFWhW2aQZOMLP8zPkCjnc8rYn eTDHDk+3fCbVVDqUrxPEBNB0/otaNjB0imtp4eX3qW7ybKngl88vWQkGnIxMr1owUAlq mRwxqFYSBpP3y4JoW/HSNx3D/FYE7UFq9uUFz7ObVEpyTE0Tlu007i1PKwq6RtFLermD KFvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYtXoYTeqXH6EpCJn2+RBl7pbRg3STuczNB94lRhTKKQmBduYkG i6CuKHb6+kSSBk1F2lF+OieZp3X8MHab3EiRRlU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKkIrr8Vb8l5tiQRPzTkyzXbD+Ol09Ju4JCfX9Kxr59GK25cYCKfeAjxSYETQK8xi1glwWQ7N5G2bS5q0Q+nsw= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d186:: with SMTP id z6mr2100977ilz.119.1587627869881; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 00:44:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> In-Reply-To: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 03:44:17 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Ihor Antonov Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4978TB75jGz4c5c X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Sx0XD0wd; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[9]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.99), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[c.2.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:44:32 -0000 On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 4:25 AM Ihor Antonov wrote: > > BUT FreeBSD folks are conservative bunch, some especially don't like > changes > that come from "linsucks". Others say that FreeBSD is a server OS. Same > "server OS advocates" comfortably sit behind their MacBooks. There are > ones > that make a living with it so any unnecessary change at the very least is > ignored or at most is actively being not welcomed. > I want a beat up old pickup not a sports car to carry lumber in ;-) (Is FreeBSD sexy? no ... Do I care? no) Also Linux (and yes I am resisting calling it by it's proper name you gave above) has broken an amazing number of very simple things completely in half to the point of making them unusable. Let's take an example that caused me to lose a $20k contract back in 2014. Client wanted me to write a "decent" installer for OpenStack, this relates to Linux see below, (I don't know if the installer has improved since 2014 but back then it was horrific to put it politely). So I decided to start with DevStack (*NONE* of the tutorials on how to do a hand configuration of OpenStack worked and none of them {nor the OpenStack documentation}). So once I set it up I decided to reboot the host and no matter what I did after that DevStack simply refused to work. After a week of digging I ran across the following passage in the manual: "The worst disaster for a cloud is a power loss." ( https://docs.openstack.org/nova/latest/admin/node-down.html). So I decided to dig deeper and found out the problem was iSCSI (a Linux feature not OpenStack one) and its completely brain dead decision to allow block level access to disks over the network and do so as if it was a local disk as far the filesystem was concerned (with zero safeguards for the connection being lost, which makes a corrupted disk/file an almost certainty in the case of a power failure). So means if Linux had decided to do network storage the *RIGHT WAY* it have would of done something like NFS (if not NFS it self) and the worst that could have happened to OpenStack from a power failure would have been to force the guests to run fsck. Linux making the choice it did of iSCSI over a NFS-like system makes it impossible to run a stable cloud outside of a purpose built data center that can guarantee no power loss for no more then 1/10 of a second. (Doing so is not a good option for many organizations for security reasons.) Whereas even though PetiteCloud (see my signature) is nowhere near complete or ready for third party use, it already kicks the ass off OpenStack in that it can suffer a power loss without even batting an eye. I have been using it in my home office as my private cloud system for almost 5 years now and when I vacuum or there is a t-storm I lose power frequently and have never had to do anything more then a simple fsck of a guest drive despite having the file server and my desktop on physically separate machines. TL;dr; due to a royal F'up in basic storage system architecture Linux is unusable outside of data centers for any sort of cloud computing whereas FreeBSD doesn't even blink an eye in such environments. So you tell me which one is more modern and useful? There are many more examples, these are just the fresh ones. Read arch > mailing > list, I am not making this up). A few progressive developers are > outnumbered > by fanatics of retro-computing. "Don't fix what is already broken" they > say, > "nobody uses it anyway" :P A rush to be cool is usually a recipe for disaster unless you have no serious work to do on you machine except to paint racing strips on it (and the OS) and install flashing mutlicolored LED strips along the mother board because it "looks cool". I just gave a prime example above where the desire to be on the cutting edge without really understanding what had already been done before and proven to work completely crippled a product. I forgot to add that the mistake I mentioned above was so awful that it led NASA's inspector general to conclude that OpenStack was a $35M complete waste of tax payer's money! (https://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY13/IG-13-021.pdf) It should be noted like typical Linux developers OpenStack never paused for one second to go back and fix a glaring and obvious design flaw. Instead they just piled more and more ill-conceived and even worse-implemented crap on top of the flaw making any future failures even worse (and harder to fix). The FreeBSD core team would have *NEVER* tolerated such complete disregard for even the most basic system/software quality assurance! > > > I am afraid that on FreeBSD Wayland will remain a third-class citizen. > Look at sway for example: it needs Linux Kernel event API (evdev, luckily > on > by default in 12), epoll-shim and eudev-shim, and then some magic with > barely > documented kern.evdev.rcpt_mask=12 in sysctl.conf to make it work. > > Why? Because FreeBSD folks are generally not interested in contributing > proper > kqueue and devd support to "linusucks" projects. As well as maintaining > X11. > Linux developers are not going to write that either. The amount of > linuxisms > and shims is only going to grow, the desktop team is fighting an uphill > battle > here, there is no proper infrastructure for them to give users good > Wayland > support. All they can offer is shims, hacks and workarounds. > > And so Wayland will slowly but surely replace X in Linux world. But even > in 10 > years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting X11, will keep stating that > they > had jails first, ZFS is cool, GPL is evil and Netflix uses FreeBSD on > their > servers. > > FreeBSD is not a general purpose OS. It is a server OS, It is retro OS. It > is > OS that fills the niche where closing sources is needed for commercial > success. > An OS you want to put somewhere and never ever touch it again. It is not a > desktop OS, quoting someone from this very mailing list: "It is power to > serve, not power to desktop!" > I challenge you to show a single item in the base system that does not have the source available in a better documented and easier to find place then Linux does (any system that can only be built easily from binaries is not very open!). BTW as far as desktop use goes it does everything I need right out of the box with no special configuration needed after installing the XFCE ports (plus any browser and office apps I use). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org