Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 15:48:27 +0100 From: Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> To: Tomasz CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" <steve@sohara.org>, "James E. Pace" <james@pacehouse.com>, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: 12.1 on Thinkpad - problem making graphics work Message-ID: <20191109154827.42b0b2e1.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <CAFYkXj=zofebWOtNhdzc8PhHC5xbWSQGf2pmQNywq1hjSDFVUg@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAN1es4Jqy17VZeJkEFrUtX872929eLt78Bmrc20jPcernhk88A@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1es4Lab0uvZRPb51PaSjDDOH%2B9ZQTQedi1xvKO%2BCbnsbr20g@mail.gmail.com> <20191108194652.50c4f8e7c87ec76b9abc6e19@sohara.org> <CAFYkXjkWLwfZaBwR6pXRp18ZWV76B2%2BBwUeuyKVTgv6Trzy_qQ@mail.gmail.com> <20191108200005.21a9cdac18587cc36bd7cb01@sohara.org> <CAFYkXj=zofebWOtNhdzc8PhHC5xbWSQGf2pmQNywq1hjSDFVUg@mail.gmail.com>
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On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 21:35:57 +0100, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > my two cents to the release process / attitude: > > the issue is that i did a release upgrade and my machine is useless out of > the box. > > even worse it crashes the os with mounted root what eventually results in > data corruption! no need to mention that data is more precious than > hardware itself. That is a _big_ problem. Depending on disk setup, the impact can be catastrophic. Sure, you should have a backup before performing something as important (to the system) as an OS upgrade, but that doesn't of course solve the primary problem, which is, the OS crashing due to something that should work, as it has done before, and as it _can_ after manually obtaining and compiling a vital part of kernel-related software. Yes, I know this sounds a lot like a Linux statement... ;-) > the issue is that it should work out of the box without "reading the entire > issue" or waste several hours just to fallback to incomplete setup. this is > not Linux. i avoid Linux for that. Here is something I'd like to add: Documentation is contradicting and not up to date. So when something changes, it should be documented. Significant changes should definitely be in the release notes. Dealing with graphics on the OS side has been an issue from the beginning. Do you need a kernel module? If yes, which if the three loading methods (in /boot/loader.conf, in /etc/rc.conf, or manually in /etc/rc.local) should you use? And don't get me started with additional things like automounter for personal workstations (where the "only one user in full control" paradigm can be assumed) - lots of ways, none works as described... > FreeBSD was always "it works stable or its not part of stable" (not to > mention a release). This is why I prefer it whenever it's not about an experimental setup to try bleeding-edge software, but to install a server or workstation that is to be actually used. > We should not accept, ever, this kind of rush, just because others do. We > avoid Windows and Linux for that. We never should accept a situation like > this in FreeBSD! Definitely agree. The process of "refinement" from -HEAD across -STABLE down to -RELEASE has always been guided with stability as a primary goal, and never really was about "let's just patch in this feature, it'll probably work, and if not, we'll issue an update later on." > i never upgraded a server until NN.1 was out. now i have concerns even > about NN.1. I've read about this attitude a lot, and it seems that there really were problems with x.0 releases in the past - not just for FreeBSD OS, but also for other pieces of software. Those in charge regarding version numbers have reacted: They now start numbering at x.1 for an initial version. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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