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Date:      Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:54:06 -0800
From:      Robert Clark <res03db2@gte.net>
To:        Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm@toybox.placo.com>
Cc:        David Scheidt <rufus@brain.mics.net>, Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: NatWest? no thanks
Message-ID:  <20011106115406.B53379@darkstar.gte.net>
In-Reply-To: <004201c165e6$75c34720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 02:41:43AM -0800
References:  <Pine.BSI.4.20.0111040959300.2371-100000@brain.mics.net> <004201c165e6$75c34720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>

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On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 02:41:43AM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: David Scheidt [mailto:rufus@brain.mics.net]
> >Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 7:14 AM
> >To: Ted Mittelstaedt
> >Cc: Mike Meyer; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG
> >Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks
> >
> >
> >Most blind people aren't consumers of pornorgraphic images.  You might find
> >a blind person who wanted to gather some images to give to someone else, or
> >something like that.
> >
> 
> But even then they cannot make selection decisions because they
> cannot see what they are gathering and have no idea if the image is
> a real picture or a picture of an advertisement or is even worth
> looking at.  So I think that
> because of this reason it's impossible to argue that everything
> on the Internet is usable by the blind and thus must be made
> accessible.
> 
> >
> >It's a lot more complicated than that.  First, it's not at all clear that
> >were the ADA to apply to commercial web sites that it would be acceptable to
> >require tha you use IE, as opposed to any generally accepted solution.
> 
> Let's be clear on this, it's impossible for the
> website to require IE - all the website can do is require that
> the user use a web browser that appears to be IE.  Since the browser is
> operated by the user, it's really in the power of the user to send back any
> browser ID string they feel like, support whatever active x ie supports, etc.
> Any accessible browser that someone might develop could be made to emulate IE,
> and in fact would have to do this to make it as accessible as possible.
> (since the entire point of such a program would be to give access, spoofing
> the ID is just another component of the access)

How much of an incentive do companies have to make "spoofing" a browser a
violation of the DMCA?


-snip-

> 
> 
> Frankly, I've never met a sighted person, upon seeing Flash on a website,
> exclaim "Wow that really is something that really needs to be on this
> website"  The response generally is more along the lines of "get this
> ^&*$ off the screen"

I've gone to flash based sites just to see the flash. The "fatkid" stuff
was good for a few laughs.

> 
> So you won't get any arguements out of me if the Supreme Court tells all
> commercial entities that Flash cannot be used because it doesen't meet
> ADA.  On the contrary I'll be jumping for joy.
> 
> Keep in mind that I'm not arguing against a court judgement that forces the
> issue of ADA on commercial websites.  If one came down everyone, including
> sighted persons, would benefit because there's far too much crappy HTML on
> commercial sites as it is.

For this purpose, was gopher better mosaic?

> 
> What I do think, though, is that it's very easy to push this thing way too
> far, much easier than something mundane like building access.  It's easy
> enough to argue that public buildings need ramp access - not only is it good
> for the handicapped, but there's lots of normal everyday things like
> deliveries on handcarts that don't go through the loading dock and why should
> the minimum-wage UPS delivery kid have to throw out his back carrying loads up
> steps all day long?  But, while ADA access to commercial websites really needs
> to be written into the law, it also needs to have a whole lot more exceptions
> in it than building access.
> 
> 
> Ted Mittelstaedt                                       tedm@toybox.placo.com
> Author of:                           The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide
> Book website:                          http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com
> 
> 
> 
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