From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 13:31:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D822C966E for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:31:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x144.google.com (mail-il1-x144.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::144]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494DQ71q51z4FPg for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:31:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x144.google.com with SMTP id i16so231360ils.12 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:31:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1qxLKS13/oYSW2/9p8jZLeBGBv5FCYnNCAQ89gZI9d0=; b=jNXTxAUjzy2KPEA+mo2mBbR0Gf2cfS2Nc3hYtcpc6bNX7+apugmNsfAzLx5kHIOeix J6FOaF1HY+6Ki1/UexntTvSFwMR1vWLT4WTgBKFBQQKGCDlHaCD2NPJIQwcYvdGdrMNi JqotBoeCAgzicHqREnu8um1RhoR56X3MXuddlob5IceFGnt9VH9wAYvBrF0Srdupw3D3 uRFnqtOupip8S/eckt8gNxoaL4DqkY7E5O+O3k3kzIaXj1JFwoqC5VAOA+QhqTVzc4ns 5R8s66uhan0haTla9HR7ynymGHVxsgqKQZb+GtRx+OUc+qwtlIQzGvaFXb8hljNYtpfE ciTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1qxLKS13/oYSW2/9p8jZLeBGBv5FCYnNCAQ89gZI9d0=; b=NxrNljW87pYHksUdeAHv7ks0YRjt/VpmMs3GJNBqkLQ+IVOlL7awJi/zIi2t7A6Zq8 rRKNc1SEsycHPBRDb93gZ+i9WohW8+CJFOfyedHXRhylxgv4rOpc2R73+aMdG6pSBfbd lmkoP7Bgal+En61i4v9UEq9fzVNYuGTnpxF7ljZEFsRpJ1syGsZSADQErnbzY6DHJyzO vDsntnU3xPgFfkuUJjAhQymPqpo4GkpWgiLUYxjxp99RYBpKcC0Wi7qMYrnkpI6wY4QR rKlKdqym3gUeGDsYzEEC8wGG+Z+/YB6eGizZUcqLyBgVuYv0OppsQR1wy4Nrqt3XZ+hp GDfw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua4672zc2OnbTTNdzWrC9CqfLxQXaN09dbLsFO+2od72yzyEN3y e/9StOyfrvg1WFO37Uwyn+dBFh/OhZby7MJmJS6Mx5XBhLk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLKxff77dSfH4yfIXNZTTFzqAISeo0MXbit/jvnS2JKKRVR+2RKIuL3hHs6OiL0Y6uEJFLvN6+hu+PEciYuQ/E= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d186:: with SMTP id z6mr5943228ilz.119.1587216702073; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:31:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 09:31:30 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494DQ71q51z4FPg X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=jNXTxAUj; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::144 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (0.15), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:31:45 -0000 On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 3:28 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:50:09 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >And here goes the *ABSOLUTE* reason why no developer who ever hopes to > >make any money at all from their work should *EVER* use GPL. > > You were already proven wrong! Let alone that you are defeated by a > naive miscalculation. > Every so called attempt to prove me wrong proved to be strawmen so please explain again the proof in a way that is not easy to show has at least one or more wholes in it. Business models based on secret recipes don't grant to earn money. Even > without "reverse engineering"/" disassembling" the idea could be > taken over. > Nor do business models that force you to make every last trade secret free for anyone to use. I don't know if your American or not but in the US the Constitution specifically protects the ability to keep exclusive rights to your work for a reasonable amount of time: "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries." (Article I, Section 8, Clause 8) Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the legality of GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project to give up all claims over how their work is used would likely unconstitutional. FSF knows this and that is why they highly recommends you to assign all intellectual property rights to FSF and/or the original author. https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#AssignCopyright And in some cases the users of the program *DEMAND* that you can not open source it for example one clause of the contract for developing the cardiac system I mentioned is we are not allowed to do any work (directly or indirectly) for any other cardiac related medical lab/service. Thus if any part of our work was GPL then I guarantee the client would sue the pants off of us. This means for example using linsucks is completely out the question for more then just technical reasons. > I don't clame that the GPL is better (or less good) as MIT, BSD or what > ever else licenses. I only claim that you are spreading misinformation. > If anything you are the one spreading misinformation based on a half informed knowledge of what the actual license says and the official interpretation of it's meaning (the GPL FAQ). I have spent over more then 5 years attempting to find a way to make GPL compatible with commercial work (including several hours of paid consulting with an intellectual property attorney), the only possible way is to dual license it (something GPL at least on the surface forbids). Where is BSD requires no such morally dishonest gymnastics since it is not viral. > There are reasons for different licenses, so it's important to > understand those reasons. The problem you have got is, that you don't > understand anything at all. > >From what you have said (and easily disproven) I wonder who has the understanding problem. > Note, the world is not divided into Communists and Capitalists, or > into idiots and people who know objective facts. The world is divided into the have's and have not's no matter how you want to phrase is and the simple fact of the matter is viral licenses (like GPL) re-enforce this while claiming to break out of this division. GPL is only suitable for people who don't need to worry about where their next meal is coming from (i.e. those who are subsitized by large organizations/user bases of that do not derive any direct living from their GPL'ed project). So please stop telling people the only possible way to be moral is to give up the ability to make a living in their chosen field (I do not see how that could be called moral by any definition). > > > Since you don't understand the reasons and consequences of the > different open source licenses, you might want to take a look at the > Creative Commons, since it explains an open minded worldview beyond > your Communist-Capitalist-idiots-misinterpreted-objective-facts > crap. To some extend it also fits to open source software licensing. > Broadly speaking the Creative Commons is spread into =E2=80=9CApproved fo= r Free > Cultural Works=E2=80=9D and not =E2=80=9CApproved for Free Cultural Works= =E2=80=9D licensing. > I suspect you have never been at risk of being homeless. I have and while in some ivory tower giving away your work is morally superior then associating with the evil word: money. I wonder what your landlord or the local grocery would tell you if you told them that because you do GPL work you will pay them in karma? > Programmers as well as artist could earn enough money to make a living > from work, that is also available for free as in beer. Have fun explaining that your landlord! > Some programmers > and artists even don't want to make money at all with their software or > artwork. However, programmers or artists are free to strike out on > their own. Users are free to do the same. > > We have the freedom of choice. The pitfall of this freedom is, that it's > annoying to care about all the details If you really care about freedom of choice why are you defending a license that takes that freedom away from you? As for myself, my life is to short to even read all end-user licence > agreements, let alone to entirely understand those I read. If a > programmer wants to sell software, the business model could be to > provide easy to understand end-user licence agreements, that give users > advantages and a free open source code, that gives advantages to > competitors. > And thats why I use BSD it is easy to understand but does not forbid anything that makes it possible to make a living. > For artists there is the CreativeCommons, it's a construction kit. For > coders there are different FLOSS licenses, all with their pros and > cons. If you remove the different names of those FLOSS licenses, you > could consider it a construction kit, too, comparable to the > CreativeCommons construction kit. > OSD sets some minimum requirements for FOSS all of which make impossible to make a living while using a viral license. --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org