Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:12:11 +0100 From: David Chisnall <theraven@FreeBSD.org> To: Julian Elischer <julian@FreeBSD.org> Cc: Nathan Whitehorn <nwhitehorn@freebsd.org>, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [CFT] packaging the base system with pkg(8) Message-ID: <5524F499-5042-407E-9180-43D15A53F3F0@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <57170E5D.1090701@freebsd.org> References: <E1asbZj-0003Ra-Qs@rmm6prod02.runbox.com> <76093.1461096570@critter.freebsd.dk> <5716AD65.8070007@shrew.net> <BF66EA01-E073-45F0-8F9E-22D57E8871B0@bsdimp.com> <5716FA70.4080604@freebsd.org> <57170E5D.1090701@freebsd.org>
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--Apple-Mail=_02AD6292-22C4-496C-8686-BD0001F40185 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 20 Apr 2016, at 06:06, Julian Elischer <julian@FreeBSD.org> wrote: >=20 > my problem with 400 packages is that is is hard to decide what you are = actually running.. or is it FreeBSD 11? is it FreeBSD 10.95342453? > you have no way to tell exactly what you have without comparing all = the packages to a known list. > uname doesn't mean much, nor does "__FreeBSD_version" if everything = comes with its own versions. I think that it=E2=80=99s very important, for the purpose of a = constructive discussion, to separate the two concerns: 1) The number of packages that the base system has. 2) The user interface by which the packages are presented. I believe (and, please, correct me if I=E2=80=99m wrong), that all of = the complaints in this thread have been about the UI, not about the = underlying mechanism. That=E2=80=99s not to say that they=E2=80=99re = unimportant (quite the reverse), but that they can be solved = concurrently with the task of preparing the base system for distribution = in packaged form. Having fine-grained packages makes a lot of things possible that are = difficult otherwise, but we do need to fix the UI. > the 'leaf' concept in pkg helps with this a bit, but we've always = considered FreeBSD bas as a sort of monalithic entity that moves forward = together. >=20 > you are running 10.1p8 pr 10.2p1 that tells you all you need to know. > If you now need to take into account 400 different dimensions you have = a much harder way to describe what you have.. >=20 > I mentioned this before but I think hte answer is to make a change on = the way that "meta packages" are displayed by default in pkg. Part of the problem is that we don=E2=80=99t actually have metapackages. = A metapackage is a package that *contains* other packages. What we = actually have is empty packages that *depend on* other packages. The = package tool has no way of distinguishing a package that you install for = the sole purpose of installing its dependencies from one that you = install because you want it (though having no files inside it might = serve as an heuristic that would work). > If I install the meta package, I really don't want to see all the sub = packages tat are unchanged unless I add '-v'. On the other hand if I = upgrade a sub package I want to see that in the context of the = metapackage. Similarly if I uninstall of the subpackages. Doing this properly also requires the notion of optional default and = non-default subpackages. I should be prevented from uninstalling (at = least, without a lot of -f) non-optional subpackages. For example, on a = small system where I=E2=80=99m not using zfs, I might uninstall the = libzfs subpackage from freebsd-libs, but if I try to uninstall the libc = package then the system should shout at me. >=20 > so something like this would remove most of my objections: >=20 > # pkg info > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D system packages=3D=3D=3D=3D > FreeBSD-networking-11.0.2_1 FreeBSD networking = subsystem and commands > - ipfw-11.0.2-1 ipfw tools (uninstalled) > - fbsd-tcpdump-11.0.2-1 Built in tcpdump tools = (uninstalled) > * openssl-11.0.2-2 Openssl support (upgraded = CVE-123456 > FreeBSD-base-base-11.0.2-1 The absolute minimum = booting base system > [...] > =3D=3D=3D=3D external packages =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > apache22-2.2.31 Version 2.2.x of Apache web server with = prefork MPM. > apr-1.5.2.1.5.4 Apache Portability Library > autoconf-2.69 Automatically configure source code on = many Un*x platforms > autoconf-wrapper-20131203 Wrapper script for GNU autoconf > [...] >=20 >=20 > Maybe I uninstalled ipfw because I use pf and I install the ports = tcpdump so I can remove the built in one. > I have installed a new openssl due to a bugfix.. >=20 > This gives me a real instant feel for what I'm running.. > if I add -v then I see all 400 packages, but I really don't want to = see them 99.99% of the time >=20 > I believe the "leaf" method gives close to this but if we could get = the above I'd have absolutely no objections. Thank you for this suggestion. I think that this is the sort of UI that = makes a lot of sense (though having subpackage support would also be = useful for ports). It=E2=80=99s also the kind of thing that I think we = could persuade the Foundation to fund if there is not enough volunteer = time to implement it. David --Apple-Mail=_02AD6292-22C4-496C-8686-BD0001F40185 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIK5jCCBPww ggPkoAMCAQICECJrrb9nBol9MHok/UZg/AYwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwdTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwx FjAUBgNVBAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKTAnBgNVBAsTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24g QXV0aG9yaXR5MSMwIQYDVQQDExpTdGFydENvbSBDbGFzcyAxIENsaWVudCBDQTAeFw0xNjA0MTkw OTI3NDJaFw0xNzA0MTkwOTI3NDJaMEQxHTAbBgNVBAMMFHRoZXJhdmVuQGZyZWVic2Qub3JnMSMw IQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhR0aGVyYXZlbkBmcmVlYnNkLm9yZzCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEP ADCCAQoCggEBALsL5pEhrGjrswHVdMHWhgxb8ARKDYRePSqpDLmjJ40bpx+n1zrvIwjC2Vk2IpoD 04rg5Pog2IrhnX+Qk2NSXzBXWj2JAaTc9OtSeAY0BtgJYXONGONQbRKVy97QBdzd1SbMEzDrOgH5 UDI+5sF1PboOTmLyTAPI9273XdfZ0BnstUXs8NXr/7p9E5CWJOsO1iQcINbm4XiwC1PLNMeWUknE Nji/hFKwcE8IFtaUe1ymbw6yA3rBpDu3KewIRD1T66FPTZJeIzvUoBIqWd+GAOfCBG2QYmbc3y/x 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