From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Aug 24 12:03:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23147 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arizona.EDU (Penny.Telcom.Arizona.EDU [128.196.128.217]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA23137 for ; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov by Arizona.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #2381) id <01I8NI9DWLXCCQFOEC@Arizona.EDU>; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:37:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost by sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04073; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:36:05 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:36:05 -0700 From: Doug Wellington Subject: Re: JDK 1.02 To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, didier@aida.org Message-id: <9608241836.AA04073@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Me, then Nate: >> look at lisp/scheme, ada, visual basic... [...] >Most of these languages weren't written up in the press on a daily >basis, and touted as the 'best of breed' in programming languages. >Something will come along that's better in the future, but for now Java >is *the* language. Just like Coke is *the* soft drink, MacDonalds is *the* burger, Baywatch is *the* tv show, Femstat 3 is *the* cure? (Should I go on?) Can we only like things when the media tells us to? (And ALL things the media tells us to?) Why do we attach ourselves to such ridiculousness? (I thought we, the UNIX world, were about elegant solutions that work hand in hand with other tools we have, and not about flavors of the day!) [EEEEK, I hope I don't sound toooooo zealous there...] >Java is C++ w/out pointers, w/out multiple inheritance, and the ability >to run on multiple platforms w/out recompile. It's the 'ultimate' in >portability, although M$ and others are trying to muddy the waters by >making 'platform specific' extensions for it. Hmmm... When *I* want portability, I look to Python and TCL... There are always trade-offs, and I don't believe that there is any way Java will be consistant across platforms (like Unix itself - "of course it's standard, but we have modified it to make our version just a little better..."). Hmmm, I wonder if we can extend autoconf for interpretting Java on the fly? >> Do we really want to be dependent upon some server somewhere for what are >> really just throw-away viewers? >Whose 'we' Kemosabe'? :) ME, for one... "We" in general... The Public(tm) is too ignorant to know any better, so since I'm the duly elected "daemon's advocate", I represent all those who aren't here... ;-) >For 'intranets' (the current buzzword which has replaced >'enterprise-wide network), applets are a great way to go. You can leave >the low powered PC on everyone's desk (maybe even a 'Network Computer') >which runs applets which talk to the main server. However, you can have >multiple 'servers'. The push for 'Data warehousing' and other >meaningless names makes it easy to push for Java. We're really getting to the big point that I see, and that is the fact that there are two very distinct areas, 1) extension of the global www, and 2) locally controlled ("secure"?) nets. As for the www, I personally do not want to be transferring applets from parts unknown, even if I have a supposedly robust vm running on my local machine. And about the local stuff, I wonder if we wouldn't be better served with server side cgi scripting...? One focal point, one script, central control, etc, and if those PC's on everyone's desk are so "low powered", shouldn't we be doing the hard work on the server? Or if we have sufficient power on the local PC, shouldn't they be running a dedicated (efficient?) viewer program instead of running an interpreter? And while I'm on this track, if we ARE on a local secure net, why not run a more full-fledged, more powerful interpreter like perl, python or tcl that already exists, instead of waiting for some limited Java interpreter? >For those zillions of programmers who have been doing Win32 programming >(aka, the API of the day), Java is a way out. Ah, so Java is the answer to the Win32 blues...! ;-) Visual C++ 4.2 doesn't support win32s anymore, so we know there is a way out. Microsoft has already shown us the way... ;-) (Seriously though, I think we'd all be better off honing our knowledge of the MFC instead of trying to switch languages...) >> Do we even have the bandwidth to do it? >Java applets decreases bandwidth in many cases. There is no longer the >need for 'server push', and instead you can get everything in one shot >by using an applet. Hmm, not sure I follow you here... If I have to transfer an applet AND the data every time I want to view something, how is that less bandwidth than if I am just transferring the data to be viewed by a program I already have on my client machine? >Java is much bigger than the WWW, especially if Sun has it's way. And ActiveX will be bigger than both Sun and the WWW if Microsoft has its way... [shrug] ======================================================================== Narvi wrote: >One part of the game is Java Applications. Theoretically, a Java >Application compiled on one plaform will run on any other platform, the >source code should also display similar features - once written, it will >compile everywhere. Or so they say :-) Well, with tools like YACL, I can write C++ code that will compile everywhere... (Especially if we put the same effort into extending YACL as is being spent on Java...!) I use Python, and in reality (not just theory) Python code DOES run on other platforms. Recent versions of TCL also run multi-platform, and I think Perl also has interpreters on a variety of platforms... It might be entertaining to have everyone look into the problems encountered with multi-platform support with those three languages... So, my point is, Java isn't anything special, it's just neutered C++, Perl, Python and TCL... We already have all these other tools, they're stable and established, and free! ================================================================== Didier wrote: >If java is well specified Perhaps that a group of people could start to >write a Java clone: something like kaffe but with a BSD copyright. >if some other people were interested I would be really happy to help in that >task Why not build upon existing tools? Like I mentioned before, we already have Perl, Python, TCL, etc... What will Java give us that can't already be done? -Doug ...who is now wondering if he drank too much coffee this morning... Doug Wellington doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov System and Network Administrator US Geological Survey, Tucson, AZ Project Office According to proposed Federal guidelines, this message is a "non-record". Hmm, I wonder if _everything_ I say is a "non-record"...? FreeBSD and Apache - the best real tools for the virtual world! Check out www.freebsd.org and www.apache.org... Chuck - Lord of Darkness? Or Lord of Cuteness?