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Date:      Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:01:49 -0800 (PST)
From:      Matthew Jacob <mjacob@feral.com>
To:        Warner Losh <imp@harmony.village.org>
Cc:        current@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: cvs commit: src/sys/i386/i386 exception.s genassym.c machdep.c mp_machdep.c mpapic.c swtch.s vm_machdep.c src/sys/i386/include cpufunc.h pcb.h src/sys/i386/isa apic_vector.s clock.c icu_vector.s intr_machdep.c intr_machdep.h npx.c src/sys/kern ... 
Message-ID:  <Pine.BSF.4.21.0202261349400.98715-100000@beppo>
In-Reply-To: <200202262143.g1QLh2L27678@harmony.village.org>

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> How is it different than publishing patches on a web site?  There are
> a number of tools that one needs to have to get the patches, just like
> in P4.  The P4 repo is available from cvsup10, so you don't even need
> to install P4 to see the patches.

Because it encourages (and has encouraged) a side project with 'special' tools
that subsets this overall project- by it's very nature precluding developers
from openwly working together. I've had reservations for quite some time about
this and mentioned this before.

It came up again recently for me when David asked me to look at Sparc64 issues
with the isp driver. Because the sparc64 effort is also using a separate p4
repository, the issue came up again and I asked 'why perforce?'. The net
effect of all of the discussion (cordial though it was) was that I have very
little interest in helping the overall sparc64 effort and will just fix the
isp- when I get around to actually getting a FreeBSD/sparc64 netbooted.

Jake's been quite helpful about info for this, but because the effort is a
side group with p4, even if I run p4 (which I can do, btw), I was asked to not
delta directly into the p4 depot. 

So, like many of the other 'sub projects' with FreeBSD, it violates (IMO) the
democratic spirit of the project. Even if everyone means well.

> 
> Our CVS meisters have told us in the past that branches on the CVS
> tree are bad, and NetBSD's experience is that not more than one or two
> are sustainable in the long run.

This is not entirely true. A branch is good for doing major work that you
intend to pull into the mainline at some point. It's hard on the people
maintaining the branch because the major grunt work of pulling the head into
the branch is a major file conflict PITA.

There are many other tools that are, btw, quite adequate and better than CVS,
that we could all use. Or we could all use p4- but the issue here isn't
*really* the tool. The issue is that the tools are being used to subvert the
spirit of the project.


> I don't think P4 is the problem here.  The problem is communication,
> expectations and work habits.

I think it's both. The establishment of side projects with different tools
than we all use guarantees resentment and poor communication. Such
methodologies are okay in a business where you have management actively
involved- and perhaps having reasons for such a divided software development
approach. 

In a volunteer project I don't believe it's helpful. However, like many things
within FreeBSD over the last 6 months- I don't believe my views are really in
accord with a number of other developers. This is, as I mentioned to somebody
else, one of the 3 main reasons I no longer actively spend much time in
FreeBSD. I don't expect you all to change your opinions about this- I've
expressed mine- politely I hope. As I prefaced my mail to Julian/cc- to all of
you- "FWIW".

-amtt



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