From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 21:04:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD1233463E for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:04:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.107.128.30]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49mgg42CFJz3TQt for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:04:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [198.74.231.63]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4704B60DB0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:04:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (doug@localhost.watson.org [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 05GL4EwU001295 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:04:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by fledge.watson.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 05GL4ErU001292 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:04:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:04:14 -0400 (EDT) From: doug Reply-To: doug@safeport.com cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: FreeBSD on the desktop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> <20200616130710.00002909@seibercom.net> <20200616151200.0000663a@seibercom.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mgg42CFJz3TQt X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of doug@fledge.watson.org has no SPF policy when checking 204.107.128.30) smtp.mailfrom=doug@fledge.watson.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.03 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[doug@safeport.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(1.00)[0.998]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_DOM_NEQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[watson.org]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.06)[1.059]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.97)[0.970]; MISSING_TO(2.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11288, ipnet:204.107.128.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:04:17 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > There are a lot of people who want to make FreeBSD a OS that is usable on > the desktop by normal everyday non-technical end-users (aka a "retail OS") > and the very same people (or a sizable overlap at least) also are the ones That is a not the goal (I believe) and certainly not my reason for wanting it to be easier to run FreeBSD as a desktop. I want to attract or at least not discourage people who want to become kernel developers, port maintainers, etc. I want (as a FreeBSD advocate) to attract these people in middle school. I believe not to do this will eventually lead to FreeBSD only being used by Netflix or the like and it's downhill from there (IMO). For those who disagree you are, as far as I can tell, are in good company (ie. most of the core team). There is some indication that this is not far fetched. E.g., pair.com and petitecloud.org that address their products to Linux, not any of the BSDs. There are a couple of projects that offer this. I do not know enough to know if there is a "best" one of these or not. The people I think we need to attract would be more likely to say, I do not use Ubuntu or FreeBSD-desktopx, I got stable running on my {fill-in-the-blank} and it rocks. But they likely would use an "easy-entry" thing as a first step. These are the ones that will eventually totally write a working wifi port because eventually they will want to do some serious stuff and all of the workarounds will be just annoying. Just my thoughts YMMV.