Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:56:45 -0600 (CST) From: John Sconiers <jrs@enteract.com> To: Jason Nordwick <nordwick@citycom.com> Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Frustrated with bsd Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.981201091357.8246B-100000@adam.enteract.com> In-Reply-To: <029c01be1cfa$35ca6190$f73c1c26@yasmeen.citycom.com>
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> >> For someone new, buying the CD is the easiest. Deciding what is
> necessary
> >> for
> >> a minimal install or what they need is beyond the beginner level. When
> >> asked,
> >> I don't even know if I could determine what was necessary for my version
> of minimal.
> >It all depends on what you need to run...
> True, so by your silence, I assume that you agree that someone new to
> the system cannot determine what they need to run.
no....just look at what you want to do and what you need to do it. If
your running a webserver then you might want to install apache...If you
have a workstation then maybe your going to need star office..etc..I
printed out the whole ports list and looked through it..or you could just
read the description of the port.
> >> >When your new to a product it may be hard at first but if you read and
> ask
> >> >good questions you can get through it.
> >> Asking good questions is a pain in the ass. First, it is very difficult
> to
> >> ask good questions when you new to something as foreign as UNIX coming
> from
> >> Windows. Second, if you bought a software package and you had to call
> tech
> >> support a couple of times to install it wouldn't you feel that they did
> not
> >> do their job in living up to their promise of easy to install?
> >
> >Key words...*BOUGHT A PACKAGE*...implies warranty etc...Maybe a few of us
> >should offer paid support for FreeBSD...hell redhat does it...any
> >takers email me off the list :-)
> Those words are not key. Image you are sent an AOL CD (hard to imagine heh),
> with the description of "east to install," the manual they provide doesn't
> answer the very simple questions that you have. You call tech support and
> their response is that it is easy to install, you just need to read three
> seperate documents just to install the thing. Additionally, you are told
> that it is easy to install, you just didn't look hard enough. Is this
> acceptable,
> simply because you didn't pay money for the license to use it?
You still are going to pay for tha AOL service and you have to stay on
hold for about 3 hours...you are referred to these documents and should
always read documentation. The problem is that windows makes us lazy...
we decide not to use or pay attention to other files.
> Alternatively,
> replace the words in the sentence: "Second, if you were given a software
> package
> and you had to call tech support a couple of times to install it wouldn't
> you
> feel that they did not do their job in living up to their promise of easy to
> install?" If you think that buying a product somehow entitles it to a
> better
> stature (such as easier to install), then you along with a few other people,
> are helping to perpetuate that gross stereotype.
It's easy for some hard for others. There is no stereotype...simple
question...If you would have read the documentation ( FAQ, etc) would you
have had an easier time installing the software....the answer is yes. I
myself had a horrible first couple days with freebsd because I didn't
read. I just jumped right in and tried to install everything I
could..even stuff i didn't need.
> >From here your only leaving yourself with the idea that it is free software,
> so it is okay if the install does not go as smoothly, or you would have said
> something, I guess.
The question is why didn't it go smoothly....not reading..or not
understanding....???
> >chapter two in the FAQ is nothing but about installation...which file do I
> >download (one of your previous questions) etc.. Chapter two and for of
> >the handbook discusses installs as well. The Complete FreeBSD book is
> >nothing more but helping you setup and maintain FreeBSD...If you read the
> >FAQ, Handbook, Readme etc. I don't think you would've had a
> >question....Even a search of the mailing list using the key\words
> >install and instructions gave helpful info. I don't think (maybe you over
> >looked it) you looked as hard as you could have or claim to....
> At the top, remember that even if the information is there, a non-linear
> search through two difference source is not sufficient. A step-by-step
> guide is necessary to rectify the documentation side of the problem.
The FAQ and Hand book is a step by step guide...or you c ould by the
book..your choice.....
> This is just a reincarnation of the argument you were making at the top
> of email, nothing really new. Section 2.1 is close, but not authorative
> enough. It says that here are a few suggestions for what you might
> what, but lacks any explanation or description of what the directories
> do, and also doesn't tell what the hierarchy you need will look like on
> disk. I talked about the handbook section 2.2.3 earlier, and the same
> thing still applies: it is not specific enough; check earlier argumentation.
The readme file says this
"LAYOUT.TXT Information about the layout of the release
directory. If you are installing from floppies,
it is especially important that you
*read this section!*"
The Layout gives a description of all of the directories....there is no
set hierachy. If you read about installing from fat16 (what I believe
your referring to) then it could be clearer but its not far out there
either.
> >make life a little easeir and use 2.2.8
> True, pre-ELF would be a better idea in terms of some of the ports problems,
> but for Os installation it does not mean anything.
> >You have to realize this mailing list (-questions) has to get more than
> >400 messages a day ....Now not only are you answering a question that
> >someone could have looked up but the person on the other end seems to
> >only have a bug up their ass and flame them but claim they looked
> >extremely hard when to you the answer is right in front of their face.
> Why do you keep insisting that the answer is "right in front of their
> face" when I don't think that you have shown really exists. Look at
> my earlier comments about the FAQ and Handbook entries.
> >You don't have to know anything about ppp. You can right a shell script
> >or small gui that does ppp setup where you ask for the parameters and do
> >the actually work behind the scenes. IE You provide boxes for a ip and
> >gateway dns etc...they click apply and behid the scenes you run ifconfig
> >-a whatever....This would take little knowledge at all...even if you
> >didn't know x you make a command line script using bash or whatever...
> This PPP stuff is besides the point (and actually to do line autodetection
> of login method you can't just make a shell script).
> >I'm glad your learning but you need to help as well...heck build a website
> >devoted to the installation of FreeBSD.....And as I've alredy said...get
> >rid of 3.0. I can send you a 2.2.7 cd-rom (assuming you want to provide
> >or pay for a blank.
> I have been running -current for over two years now. I just don't think
> that our install is as bomb as many other people think, and that we need
> a slightly better install documentation.
I agree it could be better but you must agree that if you look a little
harder some people may be able to figure it out.
> Why do you defend such a position without thought. Look at the email you
> just
> wrote. The only argument that you collapsed to is that FreeBSD is not
> purchased
> so it can provide mediocre installation support documentation. This is
> exactly
> what I meant when I said that some people will not open their eyes and admit
> that
> things are not the way they wished.
I'm not saying the installation is the greatest other wise there wouldn't
be people working on it. I'm saying it can be figured out.
> -jay
JOHN
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