From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 16 9:21:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from intranova.net (blacklisted.intranova.net [209.3.31.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6EF5614CF5 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:21:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: (qmail 88348 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2000 12:23:48 -0000 Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (user20472@209.201.95.10) by blacklisted.intranova.net with SMTP; 16 Jan 2000 12:23:48 -0000 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:19:00 -0500 (EST) From: Omachonu Ogali To: Matthew Hunt Cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I will never trust NBC news again! In-Reply-To: <20000113112930.A29388@wopr.caltech.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why isn't it and why can't it be? Omachonu Ogali Intranova Networking Group On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Thu, Jan 13, 2000 at 07:00:44AM -0500, Omachonu Ogali wrote: > > > There are some institutions and organizations (such as banks and crime > > departments) that need to record dates that happened before 1970. > > That's not what a time_t is for. > > -- > Matthew Hunt * Science rules. > http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 16 9:31:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from astralblue.com (adsl-209-76-108-39.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [209.76.108.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB3B14CA3; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:31:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.com) Received: from localhost (ab@localhost) by astralblue.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02344; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:31:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.com) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:31:20 -0800 (PST) From: "Eugene M. Kim" To: Greg Lehey Cc: Chris Costello , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 sysctl.conf.5 In-Reply-To: <20000116133434.K3413@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to -chat] On Sun, 16 Jan 2000, Greg Lehey wrote: | Do you have any evidence? I suspect this is an impression that native | English speakers have about the language. In fact, I believe most | non-native speakers spend some time learning some contractions and may | be confused in some cases if they're omitted (though probably not in | this case). No, they (including me and my friends) are not confused if contractions aren't used. In almost all English classes (as a second language) they first teach `you are' then explain briefly about its contracted form `you're', not the opposite way. In fact, it makes almost no difference even to non-native speakers once they reach a certain level. I would, however, prefer non-contracted form in manual pages because they are public documents. Regards, Eugene -- Eugene M. Kim "Is your music unpopular? Make it popular; make music which people like, or make people who like your music." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 16 12: 2:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pluto.psn.net (pluto.psn.net [207.211.58.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E7E150F6; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:02:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@shadow.blackdawn.com) Received: from 22-084.008.popsite.net ([209.69.197.84] helo=shadow.blackdawn.com) by pluto.psn.net with esmtp (PSN Internet Service 3.12 #1) id 129vso-0001t8-00; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 13:02:42 -0700 Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA48751; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:02:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:02:38 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: Omachonu Ogali Subject: Re: time_t (was Re: I will never trust NBC news again!) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Eivind Eklund , Matthew Hunt Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-Jan-00 Omachonu Ogali wrote: > Why isn't it and why can't it be? Historical reasons. You're asking the entire computer industry to change the standard libraries' use of the time_t typedef. time_t starts on January 1, 1970 at 00:00 UTC. People who need dates before that can write their own timekeeping libraries that can easily "drop in" for their C libraries. Banks, crime depts, etc. are only a small portion of the "computer user" legion. It would be a completely ridiculous idea to change time_t everywhere. I would predict chaos, quite frankly. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 16 12:23:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68CA11539C for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:23:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh27.bfm.org [216.127.220.220]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:22:46 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000116142208.009db2a0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:22:08 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 sysctl.conf.5 In-Reply-To: References: <20000116133434.K3413@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:31 16-01-2000 -0800, Eugene M. Kim wrote: >No, they (including me and my friends) are not confused if contractions >aren't used. In almost all English classes (as a second language) they >first teach `you are' then explain briefly about its contracted form >`you're', not the opposite way. FWIW, as a native Slovak speaker who studied English in Slovakia, I was taught to use contractions in spoken English, while the full form in written English. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 16 14: 3:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F1DF14A00; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:03:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:03:13 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Omachonu Ogali" , "Matthew Hunt" Cc: "Eivind Eklund" , Subject: RE: I will never trust NBC news again! Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:03:12 -0800 Message-ID: <003301bf606d$7b846840$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > There are some institutions and organizations (such as banks and crime > > > departments) that need to record dates that happened before 1970. > Why isn't it and why can't it be? Because no currently existing standard currently guarantees the valid range of a 'time_t' to extend before 1970. If an application has specific date requirements, it must use libraries and routines that are guaranteed to function over that time range. Anything else is programming negligence. This is why I say that we desperately need a new time API. And we need to get it standardized and deployed well before 2038. :) DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 16 14:34:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pluto.psn.net (pluto.psn.net [207.211.58.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02D914DBF; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:34:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@shadow.blackdawn.com) Received: from 22-084.008.popsite.net ([209.69.197.84] helo=shadow.blackdawn.com) by pluto.psn.net with esmtp (PSN Internet Service 3.12 #1) id 129yFZ-0006b1-00; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:34:21 -0700 Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA51510; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:34:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <003301bf606d$7b846840$021d85d1@youwant.to> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:34:13 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: David Schwartz Subject: RE: I will never trust NBC news again! Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Eivind Eklund , Matthew Hunt , Omachonu Ogali Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-Jan-00 David Schwartz wrote: > Because no currently existing standard currently guarantees the valid > range of a 'time_t' to extend before 1970. If an application has specific date > requirements, it must use libraries and routines that are guaranteed to > function over that time range. Anything else is programming negligence. > > This is why I say that we desperately need a new time API. And we need > to get it standardized and deployed well before 2038. :) That's certainly true. Such a deployment will require an international standards committee's involvement, or there will be chaos, just like with x2 and k56flex. We have time on our side to develop such a thing right now. However, I will not present any ideas, because this is not the appropriate forum. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? P.S. What's your email width limit set to? I always get extra-long lines.. I use 75-character widths. Is this not the standard? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 16 16:15: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from intranova.net (blacklisted.intranova.net [209.3.31.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A51714F5F for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:14:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: (qmail 54659 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2000 19:17:07 -0000 Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (user21307@209.201.95.10) by blacklisted.intranova.net with SMTP; 16 Jan 2000 19:17:07 -0000 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:12:17 -0500 (EST) From: Omachonu Ogali To: Will Andrews Cc: David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Eivind Eklund , Matthew Hunt Subject: RE: I will never trust NBC news again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ahhh, I get it now, thanks for enlightening me. Omachonu Ogali Intranova Networking Group On Sun, 16 Jan 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > On 16-Jan-00 David Schwartz wrote: > > Because no currently existing standard currently guarantees the valid > > range of a 'time_t' to extend before 1970. If an application has specific date > > requirements, it must use libraries and routines that are guaranteed to > > function over that time range. Anything else is programming negligence. > > > > This is why I say that we desperately need a new time API. And we need > > to get it standardized and deployed well before 2038. :) > > That's certainly true. Such a deployment will require an international > standards committee's involvement, or there will be chaos, just like with x2 > and k56flex. > > We have time on our side to develop such a thing right now. However, I will not > present any ideas, because this is not the appropriate forum. > > -- > Will Andrews > GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- > ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ > G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? > > P.S. What's your email width limit set to? I always get extra-long lines.. I > use 75-character widths. Is this not the standard? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 16 18: 2: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D0C14CB1 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: from uwi.tt (cuscon2246.tstt.net.tt [209.94.210.68]) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with ESMTP id VAA127774; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:52:54 -0400 Message-ID: <38827721.71FB7187@uwi.tt> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:57:53 -0400 From: "Dale Chulhan - \\" Away\ "" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: antionline@onelist.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Swap Files vs Swap Partitions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org looking for PROPER ( qualified ) answers to this question from a friend... > In the context of *nix...what are the distinct pros 'n cons > re: swap partitions vs. swapfiles???? apart from the obvious: > the filesystem overheads, I mean. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 16 18:16: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88E7B151C7 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:16:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA19911; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:38:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:38:46 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dale Chulhan - Away Cc: antionline@onelist.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Swap Files vs Swap Partitions Message-ID: <20000116183846.M508@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <38827721.71FB7187@uwi.tt> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38827721.71FB7187@uwi.tt>; from dchulhan@uwi.tt on Sun, Jan 16, 2000 at 09:57:53PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dale Chulhan - " Away [000116 18:25] wrote: > > looking for PROPER ( qualified ) answers to this question from a > friend... > > > In the context of *nix...what are the distinct pros 'n cons > > re: swap partitions vs. swapfiles???? apart from the obvious: > > the filesystem overheads, I mean. exactly that. swap partitions are _much_ better than swapfiles, note that some operating systems allow swapping to the free-space on a filesystem, however once you get that far you are probably so seriously hosed it's not worth the effort. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 16 23:36:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E51A14A15 for ; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 23:36:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA99539; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 08:36:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 08:36:24 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200001170736.IAA99539@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 sysctl.conf.5 X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <85ta0f$1fkh$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > At 09:31 16-01-2000 -0800, Eugene M. Kim wrote: >>No, they (including me and my friends) are not confused if contractions >>aren't used. In almost all English classes (as a second language) they >>first teach `you are' then explain briefly about its contracted form >>`you're', not the opposite way. > > FWIW, as a native Slovak speaker who studied English in Slovakia, I was > taught to use contractions in spoken English, while the full form in > written English. I'm German, and learned English as 2nd language at school. We learned both forms ``you are'' and ``you're'' etc. at about the same time, at the very beginning. We were taught that the non-contracted form is often used to indicate emphasis, or to stress that part of the sentence. I.e. ``You are'' is more emphasized and "stronger" than the contracted form ``you're''. Compare the following two conversations: 1. A: ``Where am I?'' B: ``You're at the airport.'' 2. A: ``How do I get to the airport?'' B: ``You _are_ at the airport.'' The sentence of person B is the same, except for emphasis and accentuation. (I've aded underscores to indicate this.) In the second conversation, it is not possible to use the contracted form without breaking the emphasis. Although the the non-contracted form could have been used in the first example, but I think that's not very common. But then again, I'm not a native English speaker, and maybe my English teachers and books were clueless. :-) Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 7: 6:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0604214C09 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:06:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12ADjj-000OIa-00; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:06:31 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12516 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:06:27 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:06:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: funny repair remark Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's a funny one for you... I've had a laptop with a bad sound channel for several months now. I noticed the failure with windows, and it has been there ever since. I finally got around to returning it for service. It's running win95 and FreeBSD dual boot. Here's what the repair report said: problem found: Unit has a third party operating system causing defective speakers repair action: replaced the system board Pretty funny, eh? I never new an OS could ruin speakers, and that you could fix them by changing the system board. Of course, i had the sound problem long before i ever installed linux OR freeBSD :-) -=> jm <=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 7:20:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AD7B14BEA for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:20:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (m21.chn.vsnl.net.in [202.54.43.237] (may be forged)) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02193 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 01:50:02 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA00449 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:59:18 +0530 (IST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:59:18 +0530 From: Greg Lehey To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Non-native English (was: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 sysctl.conf.5) Message-ID: <20000117185918.C368@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <85ta0f$1fkh$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200001170736.IAA99539@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200001170736.IAA99539@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de>; from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de on Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 08:36:24AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 17 January 2000 at 8:36:24 +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: > G. Adam Stanislav wrote in list.freebsd-chat: >> At 09:31 16-01-2000 -0800, Eugene M. Kim wrote: >>> No, they (including me and my friends) are not confused if contractions >>> aren't used. In almost all English classes (as a second language) they >>> first teach `you are' then explain briefly about its contracted form >>> `you're', not the opposite way. >> >> FWIW, as a native Slovak speaker who studied English in Slovakia, I was >> taught to use contractions in spoken English, while the full form in >> written English. > > I'm German, and learned English as 2nd language at school. We > learned both forms ``you are'' and ``you're'' etc. at about the > same time, at the very beginning. This confirms my suspicion. You and Adam are the only two non-native English speakers on this thread, and you both confirm that the contractions are no source of confusion. > We were taught that the non-contracted form is often used to > indicate emphasis, or to stress that part of the sentence. > I.e. ``You are'' is more emphasized and "stronger" than the > contracted form ``you're''. Compare the following two > conversations: > > 1. A: ``Where am I?'' > B: ``You're at the airport.'' > > 2. A: ``How do I get to the airport?'' > B: ``You _are_ at the airport.'' Good example. > The sentence of person B is the same, except for emphasis and > accentuation. (I've aded underscores to indicate this.) In the > second conversation, it is not possible to use the contracted form > without breaking the emphasis. Although the the non-contracted form > could have been used in the first example, but I think that's not > very common. Agreed. > But then again, I'm not a native English speaker, and maybe my > English teachers and books were clueless. :-) I've seen some evidence of this in Germany, but these examples are fine. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 8:54:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64C7314C3D for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 08:54:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA11761; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:53:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-native English (was: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 sysctl.conf.5) References: <85ta0f$1fkh$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200001170736.IAA99539@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000117185918.C368@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Jan 2000 17:53:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:59:18 +0530" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > This confirms my suspicion. You and Adam are the only two non-native > English speakers on this thread, and you both confirm that the > contractions are no source of confusion. Me three. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 9:25:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C58614CA2 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:25:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25468; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:24:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000117102140.018cc7f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:24:21 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This wouldn't happen to be IBM's repair center in Memphis, would it? These people are the number one reason why one should NOT buy a ThinkPad. I have one unit which has been back there three times since December; the first two times, it was not repaired properly and failed on arrival. (The first time, the screen gradually dimmed and went dark; the second, it failed its own internal RAM test.) Stay away from ThinkPads until and unless IBM hires a contractor that can do warranty repairs competently. --Brett Glass At 08:06 AM 1/17/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >Here's a funny one for you... > >I've had a laptop with a bad sound channel for several months now. I >noticed the failure with windows, and it has been there ever since. I >finally got around to returning it for service. It's running win95 and >FreeBSD dual boot. Here's what the repair report said: > >problem found: Unit has a third party operating system causing defective >speakers > >repair action: replaced the system board > >Pretty funny, eh? I never new an OS could ruin speakers, and that you >could fix them by changing the system board. Of course, i had the sound >problem long before i ever installed linux OR freeBSD :-) > >-=> jm <=- > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 9:29:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cornflake.nickelkid.com (cornflake.nickelkid.com [216.116.135.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D26414F3C for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:29:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@cornflake.nickelkid.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by cornflake.nickelkid.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA43247 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:29:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jooji@cornflake.nickelkid.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:29:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-native English (was: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 sysctl.conf.5) In-Reply-To: <20000117185918.C368@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 17 January 2000 at 8:36:24 +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: > We were taught that the non-contracted form is often used to > indicate emphasis, or to stress that part of the sentence. > I.e. ``You are'' is more emphasized and "stronger" than the > contracted form ``you're''. Compare the following two > conversations: > > 1. A: ``Where am I?'' > B: ``You're at the airport.'' > > 2. A: ``How do I get to the airport?'' > B: ``You _are_ at the airport.'' > > The sentence of person B is the same, except for emphasis and > accentuation. (I've aded underscores to indicate this.) In the > second conversation, it is not possible to use the contracted form > without breaking the emphasis. As an American English speaker, I might also use the following to achieve the same effect: 3. A: ``How do I get to the airport?'' B: ``You're _at_ the airport.'' Cheers, Mick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 9:30:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from copland.udel.edu (copland.udel.edu [128.175.13.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF00114F3C for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:29:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from papalia@UDel.Edu) Received: from copland.udel.edu (copland.udel.edu [128.175.13.92]) by copland.udel.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15420; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:25:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:25:22 -0500 (EST) From: John To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Here's a funny one for you... > > I've had a laptop with a bad sound channel for several months now. I > noticed the failure with windows, and it has been there ever since. I > finally got around to returning it for service. It's running win95 and > FreeBSD dual boot. Here's what the repair report said: > > problem found: Unit has a third party operating system causing defective > speakers > > repair action: replaced the system board > > Pretty funny, eh? I never new an OS could ruin speakers, and that you > could fix them by changing the system board. Of course, i had the sound > problem long before i ever installed linux OR freeBSD :-) Maybe they were calling Windoze the 3rd party OS? I know *IT* can destroy things... It toasted my monitor just a few weeks back (it thought it knew my refresh rates better than I). Those guys in Redmond think of EVERYTHING...... ;) ==John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 9:30:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E371E14CF1 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:30:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AFyx-0005iD-00; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:30:23 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14741; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:30:23 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:30:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117102140.018cc7f0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: >This wouldn't happen to be IBM's repair center in Memphis, would it? No, it's a Toshiba, which i have been otherwise very happy with. And they must all work together on repairs... mine went to Tennessee as well. >Stay away from ThinkPads until and unless IBM hires a contractor >that can do warranty repairs competently. I've heard to stay away from them in general.... -=> jm <=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 9:51:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0801314EB5 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:51:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25824; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:49:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000117104743.019b33b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:49:43 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: funny repair remark Cc: freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000117102140.018cc7f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:30 AM 1/17/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > >This wouldn't happen to be IBM's repair center in Memphis, would it? > >No, it's a Toshiba, which i have been otherwise very happy with. And they >must all work together on repairs... mine went to Tennessee as well. Ohmigod. You mean Solectron is the repair center for Toshiba, too? The one on "Knight Road" in Memphis? If so, that's another brand of laptop I will not buy. >I've heard to stay away from them in general.... Well, the ThinkPads with the MWave modem are particularly difficult to use with FreeBSD. (By the way, has anyone here had any success getting the MWave's Sound Blaster emulation code loaded under FreeBSD? I haven't been able to do it yet.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 9:56:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19FAC14BCC for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:56:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AGO6-0006Jv-00; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:56:22 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15165; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:56:22 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:56:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117104743.019b33b0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: >>On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: >> >> >This wouldn't happen to be IBM's repair center in Memphis, would it? >> >>No, it's a Toshiba, which i have been otherwise very happy with. And they >>must all work together on repairs... mine went to Tennessee as well. > >Ohmigod. You mean Solectron is the repair center for Toshiba, too? >The one on "Knight Road" in Memphis? If so, that's another brand of >laptop I will not buy. This one is 4600 Cromwell. Now you've got me nervous. I received it here at work, and didn't bring my power supply because i thought it wouldn't be here until tomorrow. I hope all is OK. -=> jm <=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 10:51:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gvr.gvr.org (gvr.gvr.org [194.151.74.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B755F14FA4 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:51:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from guido@gvr.org) Received: by gvr.gvr.org (Postfix, from userid 657) id E7574A856; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:51:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:51:46 +0100 From: "van Rooij, Guido" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Microsoft go it right ;-) Message-ID: <20000117195145.A534@gvr.gvr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See the following page and look at what is the definate answer to the 'which OS' question: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/psdk/sms/refsms22_3lwt.htm Also look at JavaVM. -Guido To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 11: 2:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E14751520B for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:02:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01507; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:00:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:00:45 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117104743.019b33b0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Well, the ThinkPads with the MWave modem are particularly difficult > to use with FreeBSD. (By the way, has anyone here had any success > getting the MWave's Sound Blaster emulation code loaded under > FreeBSD? I haven't been able to do it yet.) > > --Brett > the mwave was the predecessor to the "winmodem" they sucked, surely. I worked at ibm with these godforsaken things a few years ago, I think they are hopeless. but hey, I have plenty of spare parts for my parents' aptiva. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 11:19:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F97E14F5C for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:19:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AHgv-0009Dw-00; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:19:53 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16399; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:19:53 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:19:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: "van Rooij, Guido" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) In-Reply-To: <20000117195145.A534@gvr.gvr.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't get it... is this just a way for M$ to tell what OS is running on our machines? -=> jm <=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 12: 1:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DFF14A2D for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:01:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from tnt6-216-180-5-121.dialup.HiWAAY.net (tnt6-216-180-5-121.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.121]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA23984; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:00:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:59:48 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117104743.019b33b0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Ohmigod. You mean Solectron is the repair center for Toshiba, too? > The one on "Knight Road" in Memphis? If so, that's another brand of > laptop I will not buy. I work for one of their competitors who will soon be building (maybe repairing) NEC's desktops and laptops. I can tell you firsthand that these companies don't pay well, and attract less than competent staff. Sad. Solectron is #1 in the outsourcing field. My company is number 2. Be glad they repaired the laptop at all. That tech probably had to go get his supervisor to tell him how to use booteasy... :-) --- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 12:17:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C037E14EA9 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:17:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27384; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:15:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000117131330.019fde70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:15:53 -0700 To: Kris Kirby From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: funny repair remark Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000117104743.019b33b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:59 PM 1/17/2000 , Kris Kirby wrote: >I work for one of their competitors who will soon be building (maybe >repairing) NEC's desktops and laptops. I can tell you firsthand that >these companies don't pay well, and attract less than competent staff. Interesting. Hopefully, their quality standards will be those of NEC and not (shudder!) Packard Bell. >Sad. Solectron is #1 in the outsourcing field. My company is number 2. Be >glad they repaired the laptop at all. That tech probably had to go get >his supervisor to tell him how to use booteasy... :-) I wouldn't send them the hard drive; I'd take it out before sending the unit back for repair. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 12:17:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3EC14ECC for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:17:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27381; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:15:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000117131053.019b3d30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:13:03 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick , "van Rooij, Guido" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000117195145.A534@gvr.gvr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yep. And it may be that, if you're running the wrong OS or the wrong browser, things will be slower. This appears to be true of the microsoft.com Web site: when I access it with Netscape and IE side by side, I often see dramatic differences in response times from their server. --Brett At 12:19 PM 1/17/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >I don't get it... is this just a way for M$ to tell what OS is running on >our machines? > >-=> jm <=- > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 12:23:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goliath.siemens.de (goliath.siemens.de [194.138.37.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C86914CFF for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:23:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer goliath.siemens.de) Received: from mail1.siemens.de (mail1.siemens.de [139.23.33.14]) by goliath.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19200 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:23:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail1.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19519 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:23:11 +0100 (MET) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA24773 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:23:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:23:09 +0100 From: Andre Albsmeier To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) Message-ID: <20000117212309.A6625@internal> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yesterday, I did some playing around with sed and grep. As part of this, I tried to find files that have lines with trailing whitespaces. Just for curiosity I ran tests on the 3.4-STABLE sources. Here is the result: Total files in 3.4-STABLE: 19642 Files with at least one trailing whitespace: 6769 = 34% Sum of all file lengths: 190767719 Sum after removing all trailing whitespaces: 190615494 ---------------- 152225 Since I often see commit logs talking about removing whitespaces, I thought this might be interesting... However, filing a PR seems a little bit hard for this :-) -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 12:35:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F3814CF1 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:35:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AIs9-000Kbv-00; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:35:33 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17462; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:35:33 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:35:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Kris Kirby Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I must say i was a bit nervous when i realized i had left it in default to FreeBSD mode. I hope my filesystem isn't trashed from some tech pulling the plug to start over.. 'hey it works with windows...' At least i marked single user mode insecure. We'll find out about the filesystem and all the rest when i get home. -=> jm <=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 12:37:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B90D614C32 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:37:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AIu1-000BCx-00; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:37:29 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17501; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:37:29 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:37:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: "van Rooij, Guido" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117131053.019b3d30@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: >Yep. And it may be that, if you're running the wrong OS or the wrong >browser, things will be slower. This appears to be true of the >microsoft.com Web site: when I access it with Netscape and IE >side by side, I often see dramatic differences in response >times from their server. Could this simply be attributed to the explorer code being more tightly linked to the OS? And M$ knowing all the back doors to squeeze performance out of their own OS system calls? -=> jm <=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 12:38: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E367514DFE for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:38:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27641; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:37:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000117133712.01a01910@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:37:56 -0700 To: Andre Albsmeier , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) In-Reply-To: <20000117212309.A6625@internal> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wow. Removing these could cut out a bunch of download time if you're on a slow link. --Brett At 01:23 PM 1/17/2000 , Andre Albsmeier wrote: >Yesterday, I did some playing around with sed and grep. >As part of this, I tried to find files that have lines with >trailing whitespaces. Just for curiosity I ran tests on the >3.4-STABLE sources. Here is the result: > >Total files in 3.4-STABLE: 19642 >Files with at least one trailing whitespace: 6769 = 34% > >Sum of all file lengths: 190767719 >Sum after removing all trailing whitespaces: 190615494 > ---------------- > 152225 > >Since I often see commit logs talking about removing >whitespaces, I thought this might be interesting... >However, filing a PR seems a little bit hard for this :-) > > -Andre > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 12:40:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E53FC14DFE for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:40:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27661; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:39:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000117133813.019fae90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:39:12 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kirby From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: funny repair remark Cc: freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes. IBM's contractor offers a "complimentary virus scan" if you send a unit in for repair with a hard drive. I wonder if they snoop on your data. I "just say no" and take the drive out. --Brett At 01:35 PM 1/17/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >I must say i was a bit nervous when i realized i had left it in default to >FreeBSD mode. I hope my filesystem isn't trashed from some tech pulling >the plug to start over.. 'hey it works with windows...' > >At least i marked single user mode insecure. We'll find out about the >filesystem and all the rest when i get home. > >-=> jm <=- > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 12:41:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 944F815139 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:41:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AIy8-000Kf3-00; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:41:44 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17586; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:41:44 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:41:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117133813.019fae90@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I would have taken the hard drive out, but they said to include everything unless told otherwise. Believe me, it wasn't my preference. -=> jm <=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 12:57:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728691512B for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:57:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA68249; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:55:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ken) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:55:55 -0700 From: "Kenneth D. Merry" To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: "van Rooij, Guido" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) Message-ID: <20000117135555.A68205@panzer.kdm.org> References: <20000117195145.A534@gvr.gvr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 07:19:52PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 19:19:52 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > I don't get it... is this just a way for M$ to tell what OS is running on > our machines? > I think what Guido was getting at is that FreeBSD is number 42, which is the answer to everything, or something like that, from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. And the value for JavaVM is 13. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 12:59:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBCD314FBF for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:59:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27879; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:57:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000117134916.019f97a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:49:54 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) Cc: "van Rooij, Guido" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000117131053.019b3d30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:37 PM 1/17/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >Could this simply be attributed to the explorer code being more tightly >linked to the OS? And M$ knowing all the back doors to squeeze >performance out of their own OS system calls? No; it's the SERVER that responds more slowly. I've watched on a network monitor. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 13: 3: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C278A14CF1 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:02:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AJIg-000KrL-00; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:02:58 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17965; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:02:58 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:02:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: "van Rooij, Guido" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117134916.019f97a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: >No; it's the SERVER that responds more slowly. I've watched on a >network monitor. Unbelievable. What a brilliant, but utterly pathetic company. -=> jm <=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 13: 3:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ECF114F26 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:03:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AJJS-000Kri-00; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:03:46 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17987; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:03:46 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:03:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: "Kenneth D. Merry" Cc: "van Rooij, Guido" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) In-Reply-To: <20000117135555.A68205@panzer.kdm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: >On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 19:19:52 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >> >> I don't get it... is this just a way for M$ to tell what OS is running on >> our machines? >> > >I think what Guido was getting at is that FreeBSD is number 42, which is >the answer to everything, or something like that, from the Hitchhiker's >Guide to the Galaxy. > >And the value for JavaVM is 13. Ah, of course. 42. And the good part is about frogs... ;-) -=> jm <=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 13:19:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D98E150B0 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:19:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@orion.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23365; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:15:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:15:58 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Brett Glass , "van Rooij, Guido" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) Message-ID: <20000117131558.A11503@orion.ac.hmc.edu> References: <4.2.2.20000117134916.019f97a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 09:02:58PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 09:02:58PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > >No; it's the SERVER that responds more slowly. I've watched on a > >network monitor. > > Unbelievable. What a brilliant, but utterly pathetic company. Not that Netscape doesn't do it too. I was using a copy of netscape for Solaris x86 a few years ago and it bus errored every time the the string microsoft.com appeared in a URL. It wasn't the site, you could type in any of the IP addresses and it would work fine until you hit a page with an absolute refrence instead of a relative refrence (causing you to stop using the IP address in favor of the domain name) at which point it would bus error again. -- Brooks -- "Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one" --Thomas Jefferson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 13:32:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from parsons.rh.rit.edu (res112b-165.rh.rit.edu [129.21.112.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9FAE14FDD for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:32:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mfisher@csh.rit.edu) Received: from mfisher (helo=localhost) by parsons.rh.rit.edu with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12AJjm-000BPu-00; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:30:58 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:30:56 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Fisher X-Sender: mfisher@res112b-165.rh.rit.edu To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117133712.01a01910@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > Wow. Removing these could cut out a bunch of download time > if you're on a slow link. > > At 01:23 PM 1/17/2000 , Andre Albsmeier wrote: > > >Sum of all file lengths: 190767719 > >Sum after removing all trailing whitespaces: 190615494 > > ---------------- > > 152225 How would this remove a bunch of download time on a slow link? The source distribution option in an install grabs compressed files and there is an option to compress the traffic sent with CVsup. Use of cvs or sup, however, I'm not sure about. - -- Mike "The man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, 'Limit yourself'; it is he who is truly the impractical utopian." -- Murray Rothbard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0i Comment: Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBOIOKEeG+Jfm/z6tNEQL4AACg19Upa3HJR52bd0AkNoBh1kQII7MAoNPs /tltUur0hqIHj6BFQuQXAi0i =TJkC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 13:44:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stuffed-crust.co.uk (stuffed-crust.co.uk [212.24.70.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 35CBB14F4A for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:44:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve@haagen-dazs.org) Received: (qmail 66494 invoked by uid 5001); 17 Jan 2000 21:51:56 -0000 Received: from ice.haagen-dazs.org (HELO develop) (212.24.70.5) by stuffed-crust.co.uk with SMTP; 17 Jan 2000 21:51:56 -0000 Message-Id: <4.3.0.25.20000117210111.00c5d670@pop.clara.net> X-Sender: steveda@pop.clara.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.25 (Beta) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:52:54 +0000 To: Brett Glass , Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kirby From: Steve Darrall Subject: Re: funny repair remark Cc: freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117133813.019fae90@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If PCWorld (like CompUSA, but in the UK) are anything to go by, its pretty likely that they do. Gary Glitter was caught with kiddie porn on his PC when he took it into PC World to be umm errr serviced. Surely the staff wouldn't search for *.jpg on every customer's PC they got would they? ;) Steve At 01:39 PM 1/17/00 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >Yes. IBM's contractor offers a "complimentary virus scan" if you send a >unit in for repair with a hard drive. I wonder if they snoop on your >data. I "just say no" and take the drive out. > >--Brett > >At 01:35 PM 1/17/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > >I must say i was a bit nervous when i realized i had left it in default to > >FreeBSD mode. I hope my filesystem isn't trashed from some tech pulling > >the plug to start over.. 'hey it works with windows...' > > > >At least i marked single user mode insecure. We'll find out about the > >filesystem and all the rest when i get home. > > > >-=> jm <=- > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 13:51:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E96A414FB4 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:51:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:51:26 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Steve Darrall" Cc: "freebsd-chat" Subject: RE: funny repair remark Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:51:26 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf6135$00de68c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.25.20000117210111.00c5d670@pop.clara.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If PCWorld (like CompUSA, but in the UK) are anything to go by, > its pretty > likely that they do. > > Gary Glitter was caught with kiddie porn on his PC when he took > it into PC > World to be umm errr serviced. > > Surely the staff wouldn't search for *.jpg on every customer's PC > they got > would they? ;) So how is the computer store looking for kiddy porn on Gary's computer, finding it, and viewing it any different from Gary doing the same thing on the 'Net? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 14:10:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.x-treme.gr (mx2.x-treme.gr [212.120.192.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F77015030 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:10:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat32.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.224]) by mx2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id AAA08398; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:10:33 +0200 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA04299; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:26:07 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:26:07 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark Message-ID: <20000117222607.A4105@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 03:06:26PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Here's a funny one for you... > > I've had a laptop with a bad sound channel for several months now. I > noticed the failure with windows, and it has been there ever since. > I finally got around to returning it for service. It's running win95 > and FreeBSD dual boot. Here's what the repair report said: > > problem found: Unit has a third party operating system causing > defective speakers > > repair action: replaced the system board To such reports I usually reply: "problem: you don't have a clue" "repair action: I should change vendors." This, more often than not, works for me ;) -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > "What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing." [Aristotle] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 14:17: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stuffed-crust.co.uk (stuffed-crust.co.uk [212.24.70.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0825514F68 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:17:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve@haagen-dazs.org) Received: (qmail 66530 invoked by uid 5001); 17 Jan 2000 22:24:21 -0000 Received: from ice.haagen-dazs.org (HELO develop) (212.24.70.5) by stuffed-crust.co.uk with SMTP; 17 Jan 2000 22:24:21 -0000 Message-Id: <4.3.0.25.20000117220904.00bfabd0@pop.clara.net> X-Sender: steveda@pop.clara.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.25 (Beta) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:25:20 +0000 To: "David Schwartz" From: Steve Darrall Subject: RE: funny repair remark Cc: "freebsd-chat" In-Reply-To: <000001bf6135$00de68c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.3.0.25.20000117210111.00c5d670@pop.clara.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Who says they were looking for child porn? Maybe they were looking for porn of a more (legally, not necessarily morally) acceptable kind, came across the child porn and reported it to the police. If you find a knife used as a murder weapon (you don't know its a murder weapon at the time, but it looks dangerous, so you do the public spirited thing before someone hurts themself) in the street, pick it up and take it to a police station, would you want to be arrested for committing the murder? Steve At 01:51 PM 1/17/00 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > If PCWorld (like CompUSA, but in the UK) are anything to go by, > > its pretty > > likely that they do. > > > > Gary Glitter was caught with kiddie porn on his PC when he took > > it into PC > > World to be umm errr serviced. > > > > Surely the staff wouldn't search for *.jpg on every customer's PC > > they got > > would they? ;) > > So how is the computer store looking for kiddy porn on Gary's > computer, >finding it, and viewing it any different from Gary doing the same thing on >the 'Net? > > DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 15:50:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF25D14C1D for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:50:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from vangelderen.org (hoefnix.ai [209.88.68.215]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1804C; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:50:13 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <3883AA55.2124A1B6@vangelderen.org> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:48:37 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-native English (was: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 sysctl.conf.5) References: <85ta0f$1fkh$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200001170736.IAA99539@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000117185918.C368@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Greg Lehey writes: > > This confirms my suspicion. You and Adam are the only two non-native > > English speakers on this thread, and you both confirm that the > > contractions are no source of confusion. > > Me three. AOL. Cheers, Jeroen -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen - jeroen@vangelderen.org Interesting read: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ JLF To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 16:31: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 9927D15083; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EAFF1CD644; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:30:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:30:59 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Andre Albsmeier , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117133712.01a01910@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > Wow. Removing these could cut out a bunch of download time > if you're on a slow link. Except for the minor speed hump of the CTM delta/cvsup which contains the diffs :-P Saving 150k of uncompressed spaces hardly seems worth the effort, really. Kris ---- "How many roads must a man walk down, before you call him a man?" "Eight!" "That was a rhetorical question!" "Oh..then, seven!" -- Homer Simpson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 16:47:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.x-treme.gr (mx2.x-treme.gr [212.120.192.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 856B915054 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:47:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat60.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.252]) by mx2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id CAA12548; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 02:47:30 +0200 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA06102; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 02:36:31 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 02:36:31 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brooks Davis Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Brett Glass , "van Rooij, Guido" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) Message-ID: <20000118023631.A5990@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <4.2.2.20000117134916.019f97a0@localhost> <20000117131558.A11503@orion.ac.hmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <20000117131558.A11503@orion.ac.hmc.edu> X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 01:15:58PM -0800, Brooks Davis wrote: > On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 09:02:58PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > > On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > >No; it's the SERVER that responds more slowly. I've watched on a > > >network monitor. > > > > Unbelievable. What a brilliant, but utterly pathetic company. > > Not that Netscape doesn't do it too. I was using a copy of netscape for > Solaris x86 a few years ago and it bus errored every time the the string > microsoft.com appeared in a URL. It wasn't the site, you could type in > any of the IP addresses and it would work fine until you hit a page with > an absolute refrence instead of a relative refrence (causing you to stop > using the IP address in favor of the domain name) at which point it > would bus error again. I'd hate it if I had to to come to the conclusion that 'code cleanup', before the first Mozilla source opening, was all about things like this truly amazing fact. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > "Don't let your schooling interfere with your education." [?] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 17: 6: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE7314F7E for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:05:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01109 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:05:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200001180105.UAA01109@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:05:52 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: For any sick-in-the-head C programmers Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This code was "discovered" in src/usr.bin/chat/chat.c during -Wall fixups. Please, go grab a trashcan before you read this so you don't mess up your keyboard: From line 142 and following: /*************** Micro getopt() *********************************************/ #define OPTION(c,v) (_O&2&&**v?*(*v)++:!c||_O&4?0:(!(_O&1)&& \ (--c,++v),_O=4,c&&**v=='-'&&v[0][1]?*++*v=='-'\ &&!v[0][1]?(--c,++v,0):(_O=2,*(*v)++):0)) #define OPTARG(c,v) (_O&2?**v||(++v,--c)?(_O=1,--c,*v++): \ (_O=4,(char*)0):(char*)0) #define OPTONLYARG(c,v) (_O&2&&**v?(_O=1,--c,*v++):(char*)0) #define ARG(c,v) (c?(--c,*v++):(char*)0) static int _O = 0; /* Internal state */ /*************** Micro getopt() *********************************************/ -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 18:34:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F5C150E6 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:34:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:34:54 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Steve Darrall" Cc: "freebsd-chat" Subject: RE: funny repair remark Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:34:53 -0800 Message-ID: <000701bf615c$9a0e7ef0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.25.20000117220904.00bfabd0@pop.clara.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Who says they were looking for child porn? Maybe they were > looking for porn > of a more (legally, not necessarily morally) acceptable kind, came across > the child porn and reported it to the police. Who says Gary was looking for child porn? All that we know in either case is that they were both looking some place child porn was likely to be and they both found it. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 20: 8:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2E714C98 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:08:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id FAA24679 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:08:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id AA9618863; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:34:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:34:51 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-native English (was: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 sysctl.conf.5) Message-ID: <20000118003451.A4216@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <85ta0f$1fkh$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200001170736.IAA99539@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000117185918.C368@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 05:53:51PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Dag-Erling Smorgrav: > > This confirms my suspicion. You and Adam are the only two non-native > > English speakers on this thread, and you both confirm that the > > contractions are no source of confusion. > > Me three. If I may, me 4 :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #77: Thu Dec 30 12:49:51 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 20: 8:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08EE315116 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:08:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id FAA24680 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:08:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 39CAC8863; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:40:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:40:38 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) Message-ID: <20000118004038.B4216@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000117212309.A6625@internal> <4.2.2.20000117133712.01a01910@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117133712.01a01910@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 01:37:56PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Brett Glass: > Wow. Removing these could cut out a bunch of download time > if you're on a slow link. Don't even think about it. Jordan and Rod Grimes probably still get nightmares from the last time it was done (just before 2.0.5). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #77: Thu Dec 30 12:49:51 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 20:17:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7559114F64 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:17:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-208-170-119-229.dialup.HiWAAY.net [208.170.119.229]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA04849 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:17:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18448 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:17:46 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200001180417.WAA18448@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) In-reply-to: Message from "Kenneth D. Merry" of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:55:55 MST." <20000117135555.A68205@panzer.kdm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:17:46 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Kenneth D. Merry" writes: > On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 19:19:52 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > > I don't get it... is this just a way for M$ to tell what OS is running on > > our machines? > > > > I think what Guido was getting at is that FreeBSD is number 42, which is > the answer to everything, or something like that, from the Hitchhiker's > Guide to the Galaxy. "42" is the answer to "What is the meaning of life?" (at least for earthlings). The mice contracted to have earth built in order to determine what the real question was. However just moments before the conclusion of the experiment popped into Arthur Dent's head ("what is 6 times 7?") his house was destroyed to make way for a bypass. Then moments later the earth was destroyed by a Vogon construction crew to make way for an intergalactic bypass. Or maybe the mice created earth simply to calculate 6 times 7. Am not sure, can't find my Hitchiker books, and haven't been able to find it online. Don't forget your towel. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 20:33:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87AA715121 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:33:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA10153; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:32:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200001180432.UAA10153@implode.root.com> To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:17:46 CST." <200001180417.WAA18448@nospam.hiwaay.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:32:49 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> I think what Guido was getting at is that FreeBSD is number 42, which is >> the answer to everything, or something like that, from the Hitchhiker's >> Guide to the Galaxy. > >"42" is the answer to "What is the meaning of life?" (at least for >earthlings). The mice contracted to have earth built in order to Actually, it was "...life, the universe, and everything". >determine what the real question was. However just moments before the >conclusion of the experiment popped into Arthur Dent's head ("what is 6 >times 7?") his house was destroyed to make way for a bypass. Then >moments later the earth was destroyed by a Vogon construction crew to >make way for an intergalactic bypass. > >Or maybe the mice created earth simply to calculate 6 times 7. Am not >sure, can't find my Hitchiker books, and haven't been able to find it >online. > >Don't forget your towel. ...and don't panic. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 21: 7:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 987A715175 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA64457; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:11:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:11:54 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) Message-ID: <20000118001154.D63571@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> References: <200001180417.WAA18448@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200001180417.WAA18448@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 10:17:46PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 10:17:46PM -0600, David Kelly wrote: > "Kenneth D. Merry" writes: > > On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 19:19:52 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > > > > I don't get it... is this just a way for M$ to tell what OS is running on > > > our machines? > > > > > > > I think what Guido was getting at is that FreeBSD is number 42, which is > > the answer to everything, or something like that, from the Hitchhiker's > > Guide to the Galaxy. > > "42" is the answer to "What is the meaning of life?" (at least for > earthlings). The mice contracted to have earth built in order to > determine what the real question was. However just moments before the > conclusion of the experiment popped into Arthur Dent's head ("what is 6 > times 7?") his house was destroyed to make way for a bypass. Then > moments later the earth was destroyed by a Vogon construction crew to > make way for an intergalactic bypass. > > Or maybe the mice created earth simply to calculate 6 times 7. Am not > sure, can't find my Hitchiker books, and haven't been able to find it > online. > > Don't forget your towel. DON'T PANIC -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 21: 8:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 65D5414E29 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:08:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 59834 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2000 05:08:04 -0000 Received: from bumf.outpost.co.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.4) by outpost2.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 18 Jan 2000 05:08:04 -0000 Message-ID: <38851E6F.23416412@outpost.co.nz> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:16:15 -0800 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: 42 (was Re: Microsoft go it right ;-)) References: <200001180432.UAA10153@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >"42" is the answer to "What is the meaning of life?" (at least for > >earthlings). The mice contracted to have earth built in order to > > Actually, it was "...life, the universe, and everything". Deep Thought was the giant self-aware supercomputer built to discover the Answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything. The result he returned (after several millennia) was 42. Deep Thought justified the Answer (to the astounded high priests in attendance) by pointing out that the Answer didn't really make sense until you fully understood what the Question was; and thus a new even more powerful organic computer (called "Earth") was built to compute the ultimate Question of life, the universe, and everything. The final readout of the Question apparently popped into the head of a woman called Fenchurch ("...sitting on her own in a small cafe in Rickmansworth") but before she could reach a telephone to tell anyone about it, the Earth was destroyed by the Vogons to make way for a hyperspace bypass. Fenchurch later became romantically entangled with Arthur Dent on the substitute Earth recovered by the dolphins. The mice (who were genetically modified descendants of the original question-askers, inserted into the Earth system to direct the computation) realized they would be able to recover the result directly from a careful scan of Arthur Dent's brain, which required only the slight inconvenience of removing it from its traditional location (and some dicing). Arthur successfully fled and the opportunity to obtain the Question was lost. Much later, after a series of unlikely adventures, Arthur Dent and Ford Prefect ended up on prehistoric Earth with its indigenous population of cavemen in the company of a starship-load of Golgafrincham telephone sanitisers. Ford and Arthur realised that the Question locked in Arthur's brain could be recovered through the unconscious direction of a random act (pulling scrabble letters from a bag) and came up with "what do you get if you multiply six by nine". The incorrect Question is explained by the fact that the presence of the Golgafrincham settlers on Earth killed off the native pre-human population, distorting the original setup conditions for the experiment. -- C. (no, I don't have the books with me at work. Entirely from memory. Very disturbing!) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 21:20: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from css.tuu.utas.edu.au (css.tuu.utas.edu.au [131.217.115.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE3214CC8 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:19:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iaint@css.tuu.utas.edu.au) Received: from localhost (iaint@localhost) by css.tuu.utas.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12931 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:19:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from iaint@depravitas.tuu.utas.edu.au) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:19:55 +1100 (EST) From: Iain Templeton To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 42 (was Re: Microsoft go it right ;-)) In-Reply-To: <38851E6F.23416412@outpost.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Craig Harding wrote: > Much later, after a series of unlikely adventures, Arthur Dent and Ford > Prefect ended up on prehistoric Earth with its indigenous population of > cavemen in the company of a starship-load of Golgafrincham telephone > sanitisers. Ford and Arthur realised that the Question locked in > Arthur's brain could be recovered through the unconscious direction of a > random act (pulling scrabble letters from a bag) and came up with "what > do you get if you multiply six by nine". > Although six by nine is 54, which if expressed in a base 13 number system does come out at 42 (4 x 13 = 52 + 2 = 54). I sat there for a few minutes trying to make sense of it, and that was the best I could do. Although... > The incorrect Question is explained by the fact that the presence of the > Golgafrincham settlers on Earth killed off the native pre-human > population, distorting the original setup conditions for the experiment. > Makes far more sense. > (no, I don't have the books with me at work. Entirely from memory. Very > disturbing!) > Wow! Iain To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 22:12: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 08E1115239; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD0D1CD648; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:12:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:12:03 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Craig Harding Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 42 (was Re: Microsoft go it right ;-)) In-Reply-To: <38851E6F.23416412@outpost.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Craig Harding wrote: > sanitisers. Ford and Arthur realised that the Question locked in > Arthur's brain could be recovered through the unconscious direction of a > random act (pulling scrabble letters from a bag) and came up with "what > do you get if you multiply six by nine". I've always thought it odd the number of people who unconsciously transmute the Incorrect Ultimate Question to "what do you get if you multiply six by seven?" so it becomes A Possible Correct Ultimate Question (e.g. dg :-) There's probably some deeply profound reason behind it.. Kris ---- "How many roads must a man walk down, before you call him a man?" "Eight!" "That was a rhetorical question!" "Oh..then, seven!" -- Homer Simpson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 23:10: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enterprise.sanyusan.se (enterprise.sanyusan.se [212.209.55.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE8614A1F for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:10:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anders@enterprise.sanyusan.se) Received: (from anders@localhost) by enterprise.sanyusan.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA22400; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:09:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anders) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:09:46 +0100 From: Anders Andersson To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-native English (was: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 sysctl.conf.5) Message-ID: <20000118080945.A22380@enterprise.sanyusan.se> References: <85ta0f$1fkh$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200001170736.IAA99539@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000117185918.C368@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <20000118003451.A4216@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000118003451.A4216@keltia.freenix.fr>; from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr on Tis, Jan 18, 2000 at 12:34:51am +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tis, Jan 18, 2000 at 12:34:51am +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Dag-Erling Smorgrav: > > > This confirms my suspicion. You and Adam are the only two non-native > > > English speakers on this thread, and you both confirm that the > > > contractions are no source of confusion. > > > > Me three. > > If I may, me 4 :-) I will only agree, me 5! -- Anders Andersson anders@sanyusan.se Sanyusan International AB http://www.sanyusan.se/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 17 23:22:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1053414D75 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:22:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id IAA02502 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:22:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 835E38863; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:21:26 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:21:26 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: For any sick-in-the-head C programmers Message-ID: <20000118082126.A7006@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.org References: <200001180105.UAA01109@server.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200001180105.UAA01109@server.baldwin.cx>; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 08:05:52PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to John Baldwin: > #define OPTION(c,v) (_O&2&&**v?*(*v)++:!c||_O&4?0:(!(_O&1)&& \ > (--c,++v),_O=4,c&&**v=='-'&&v[0][1]?*++*v=='-'\ > &&!v[0][1]?(--c,++v,0):(_O=2,*(*v)++):0)) Reminds me of procmail and to a less extend of qmail :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #77: Thu Dec 30 12:49:51 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 1:19:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from parsons.rh.rit.edu (res112b-165.rh.rit.edu [129.21.112.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3629514C57 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 01:19:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mfisher@csh.rit.edu) Received: from mfisher (helo=localhost) by parsons.rh.rit.edu with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12AUmx-000Cwq-00; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 04:18:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 04:18:58 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Fisher X-Sender: mfisher@res112b-165.rh.rit.edu To: Craig Harding Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 42 (was Re: Microsoft go it right ;-)) In-Reply-To: <38851E6F.23416412@outpost.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Craig Harding wrote: > sanitisers. Ford and Arthur realised that the Question locked in > Arthur's brain could be recovered through the unconscious direction of a > random act (pulling scrabble letters from a bag) and came up with "what > do you get if you multiply six by nine". Do they have six- or nine-point-scoring Scrabble tiles in New Zealand? - -- Mike "The man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, 'Limit yourself'; it is he who is truly the impractical utopian." -- Murray Rothbard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0i Comment: Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBOIQwA+G+Jfm/z6tNEQLsSQCfSNClCMHnNFibho5G2BeuZ37RBNkAn0CO /htOYFxErZodViA/WcUapwxS =GDnA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 3:34:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5A7150B7 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 03:34:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA45912; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:34:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:34:29 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200001181134.MAA45912@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <85vu1t$12p$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andre Albsmeier wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > Yesterday, I did some playing around with sed and grep. > As part of this, I tried to find files that have lines with > trailing whitespaces. Just for curiosity I ran tests on the > 3.4-STABLE sources. Here is the result: > [...] > Since I often see commit logs talking about removing > whitespaces, I thought this might be interesting... > However, filing a PR seems a little bit hard for this :-) Also, don't forget all those source lines where spaces could be unexpanded into tabs. There's an awfully lot of these, too. ;) Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 3:38: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cip12.melaten.rwth-aachen.de (cip12.melaten.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.92.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A941151F4 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 03:38:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tg@melaten.rwth-aachen.de) Received: (from tg@localhost) by cip12.melaten.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA72933; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:44:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from tg@melaten.rwth-aachen.de) X-Authentication-Warning: cip12.melaten.rwth-aachen.de: tg set sender to tg@melaten.rwth-aachen.de using -f To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) References: <200001181134.MAA45912@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Thomas Gellekum In-Reply-To: Oliver Fromme's message of "Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:34:29 +0100 (CET)" Date: 18 Jan 2000 12:44:19 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) XEmacs/20.4 (Emerald) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oliver Fromme writes: > Also, don't forget all those source lines where spaces could be > unexpanded into tabs. There's an awfully lot of these, too. ;) Tabs should be expanded to four spaces, as everyone knows. tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 3:43:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4D2150D7 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 03:43:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from tnt6-216-180-5-246.dialup.HiWAAY.net (tnt6-216-180-5-246.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.246]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id FAA19027; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:43:12 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:43:05 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: David Greenman Cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) In-Reply-To: <200001180432.UAA10153@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >"42" is the answer to "What is the meaning of life?" (at least for > >earthlings). The mice contracted to have earth built in order to > > Actually, it was "...life, the universe, and everything". > > >determine what the real question was. However just moments before the > >conclusion of the experiment popped into Arthur Dent's head ("what is 6 > >times 7?") his house was destroyed to make way for a bypass. Then > >moments later the earth was destroyed by a Vogon construction crew to > >make way for an intergalactic bypass. Fourty-two is the answer that Deep Thought comes up with to the question: "What is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?" The mice commissioned the planet-builders to build a computer (planet) that would calculate the question as to why it came up with 42. And, through a strange misadventure (a whole trilogy of them ;-) Arthur comes to find that the question is: "What is six times seven?" --- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 4: 5:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B1C14F00 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 04:05:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA16107; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:05:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Kris Kirby Cc: David Greenman , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Jan 2000 13:05:48 +0100 In-Reply-To: Kris Kirby's message of "Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:43:05 -0600 (CST)" Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby writes: > Fourty-two is the answer that Deep Thought comes up with to the question: > "What is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?" The mice > commissioned the planet-builders to build a computer (planet) that would > calculate the question as to why it came up with 42. And, through a > strange misadventure (a whole trilogy of them ;-) Arthur comes to find > that the question is: "What is six times seven?" No. Now, will you people please stop spreading disinformation and go re-read the books? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 4:35:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD931504E for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 04:35:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id F2C6E7555; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 04:37:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F039A1D89; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 04:37:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 04:37:13 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brooks Davis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) In-Reply-To: <20000117131558.A11503@orion.ac.hmc.edu> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brooks Davis wrote: :"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not :have, nor do they deserve, either one" : --Thomas Jefferson Quick comment on your .sig. Unless Jefferson paraphrased Franklin, you've munged the quote and misattributed it. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 6:24:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cornflake.nickelkid.com (cornflake.nickelkid.com [216.116.135.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24040150C5 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 06:24:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@cornflake.nickelkid.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by cornflake.nickelkid.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08083; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:24:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jooji@cornflake.nickelkid.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:24:26 -0500 (EST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Brooks Davis , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brooks Davis wrote: > > :"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not > :have, nor do they deserve, either one" > : --Thomas Jefferson > > Quick comment on your .sig. Unless Jefferson paraphrased Franklin, you've > munged the quote and misattributed it. They all said it, in one form or another, around the same time. I've seen at least a dozen different versions of the above quote, but the only one I've seen with a citation was this one: "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin. From "American Quotations," 1988, Carruth and Ehrlich, eds. Cheers, Mick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 6:36: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8520D14BE3 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 06:35:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id AAA12408; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:35:42 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) via SMTP by ren.detir.qld.gov.au, id smtpd012404; Wed Jan 19 00:35:34 2000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA23370; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:35:17 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA13035; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:35:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA42995; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:35:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <200001181435.AAA42995@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: Iain Templeton Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: 42 (was Re: Microsoft go it right ;-)) References: <38851E6F.23416412@outpost.co.nz> In-Reply-To: from Iain Templeton at "Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:19:55 +1100" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:35:15 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 18th January 2000, Iain Templeton wrote: >Although six by nine is 54, which if expressed in a base 13 number system >does come out at 42 (4 x 13 = 52 + 2 = 54). I happened to have the chance to put this thesis to Douglas Adams in person. He was touring in the early 80s and I had a copy of Hitchhikers I wanted him to sign. When I walked up smugly and asked "Did you know that six times nine is 42 base 13?" he sort of groaned and rolled his eyes, signed the book and handed it back. So, he'd .. um .. heard it before. It must be a special sort of hell to meet nothing but enthusiastic newbies over and over and over again. :-) >> The incorrect Question is explained by the fact that the presence of the >> Golgafrincham settlers on Earth killed off the native pre-human >> population, distorting the original setup conditions for the experiment. >> >Makes far more sense. I'm not sure it needs to make sense. Stephen. PS I've just had a frustrating time with the Information Super Highway. All I wanted to know was when the damn book was first published. You'd think that Douglas Adams' site would have it. Or that Amazon would have it. But, surprisingly, their version is from 1995. And 1997. And 1994... And the Douglas Adams FAQ? Full of fascinating trivia, but not that. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 6:36:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445D514BE3 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 06:36:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AZjs-0008z2-00; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:36:08 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA32260; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:36:07 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:36:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: For any sick-in-the-head C programmers In-Reply-To: <20000118082126.A7006@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Ollivier Robert wrote: >> #define OPTION(c,v) (_O&2&&**v?*(*v)++:!c||_O&4?0:(!(_O&1)&& \ >> (--c,++v),_O=4,c&&**v=='-'&&v[0][1]?*++*v=='-'\ >> &&!v[0][1]?(--c,++v,0):(_O=2,*(*v)++):0)) So can someone explain what this actually *does*? -=> jm <=- "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, and i didn't care which...." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 6:38:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2DC14E8D for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 06:38:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AZm1-000E2i-00; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:38:21 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA32304; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:38:21 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:38:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117104743.019b33b0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > >Ohmigod. You mean Solectron is the repair center for Toshiba, too? >The one on "Knight Road" in Memphis? If so, that's another brand of >laptop I will not buy. Well, i lucked out. All is well with the laptop, and sound is back to spec. Wonderful! Question: would a repair company ever downgrade the CPU if they didn't have the correct clock speed available? -=> jm <=- "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, and i didn't care which...." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 6:43: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B9C14D33 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 06:43:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id AAA12586; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:42:21 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) via SMTP by ren.detir.qld.gov.au, id smtpd012584; Wed Jan 19 00:42:14 2000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA23515 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:41:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA13104 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:41:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA43128; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:41:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <200001181441.AAA43128@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: 42 (was Re: Microsoft go it right ;-)) References: <38851E6F.23416412@outpost.co.nz> <200001181435.AAA42995@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> In-Reply-To: <200001181435.AAA42995@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> from Stephen McKay at "Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:35:15 +1000" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:41:42 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 19th January 2000, Stephen McKay wrote: >PS I've just had a frustrating time with the Information Super Highway. >All I wanted to know was when the damn book was first published. You'd >think that Douglas Adams' site would have it. Or that Amazon would have >it. But, surprisingly, their version is from 1995. And 1997. And 1994... >And the Douglas Adams FAQ? Full of fascinating trivia, but not that. Pox! I was only a click away from a better FAQ. (Always the way...) 1979, for those that care. See: http://www.atomiser.demon.co.uk/mh/faq/y.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 7: 8: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25CC214E89 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:08:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from tnt6-216-180-4-199.dialup.HiWAAY.net (tnt6-216-180-4-199.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.199]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA10729; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:07:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:07:52 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: David Greenman , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No. > > Now, will you people please stop spreading disinformation and go > re-read the books? Damn. I was sure I had that one head on. Oh well. --- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 7:28:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CC614DE6 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:28:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id BAA13434; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:28:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) via SMTP by ren.detir.qld.gov.au, id smtpd013432; Wed Jan 19 01:28:24 2000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA24480; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:27:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA14218; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:27:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA43810; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:27:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <200001181527.BAA43810@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: For any sick-in-the-head C programmers References: <20000118082126.A7006@keltia.freenix.fr> In-Reply-To: from Jonathon McKitrick at "Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:36:07 +0000" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:27:56 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 18th January 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Ollivier Robert wrote: > >>> #define OPTION(c,v) (_O&2&&**v?*(*v)++:!c||_O&4?0:(!(_O&1)&& \ >>> (--c,++v),_O=4,c&&**v=='-'&&v[0][1]?*++*v=='-'\ >>> &&!v[0][1]?(--c,++v,0):(_O=2,*(*v)++):0)) > >So can someone explain what this actually *does*? You don't like obfuscated C puzzles? :-) Together with the other macros, it does all that getopt(3) does. It's rather clever, if poorly formatted. It even recognises '--' and stops option processing, and handles optional spaces before option arguments. The state variable _O is 0 initially (to enable skipping the program name), 1 when just about to look at a command line argument to see if it is an option, 2 when it's seen '-' and is part way through a list of flags, and 4 when there are no more option flags. (3 isn't used because _O&2 is shorter than _O==2.) Then ARG() is used to read the file arguments. This stuff was really fun back at University, but in the real world it just gets you beaten to death by maintenance programmers. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 7:35: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F52614DDC for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:34:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Aaee-000HYC-00; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:34:48 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA33239; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:34:48 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:34:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: For any sick-in-the-head C programmers In-Reply-To: <200001181527.BAA43810@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is there a way to format that macro so it is more readable? -=> jm <=- "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, and i didn't care which...." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 7:52: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AD714CC5 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:52:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id BAA13859; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:50:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) via SMTP by ren.detir.qld.gov.au, id smtpd013857; Wed Jan 19 01:50:28 2000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA24944; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:50:23 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA14678; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:50:23 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA44174; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:50:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <200001181550.BAA44174@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: For any sick-in-the-head C programmers References: In-Reply-To: from Jonathon McKitrick at "Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:34:48 +0000" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:50:22 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 18th January 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >Is there a way to format that macro so it is more readable? I've not tried compiling it, but this should be equivalent. By the way, clear layout shows that the & vs == trick saved 2 characters in total. :-) /*************** Micro getopt() *********************************************/ #define OPTION(c,v) \ ( \ _O&2 && **v \ ? *(*v)++ \ : !c || _O&4 \ ? 0 \ : ( \ !(_O&1) && (--c, ++v), \ _O=4, \ c && **v == '-' && v[0][1] \ ? *++*v == '-' && !v[0][1] \ ? (--c, ++v , 0) \ : (_O=2, *(*v)++) \ : 0 \ ) \ ) #define OPTARG(c,v) \ ( \ _O&2 \ ? **v || (++v, --c) \ ? (_O=1, --c, *v++) \ : (_O=4, (char*)0) \ : (char*)0 \ ) #define OPTONLYARG(c,v) \ ( \ _O&2 && **v \ ? (_O=1, --c, *v++) \ : (char*)0 \ ) #define ARG(c,v) \ ( \ c \ ? (--c, *v++) \ : (char*)0 \ ) static int _O = 0; /* Internal state */ /*************** Micro getopt() *********************************************/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 8:11:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2769414E5F for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:11:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AbDz-000Ax3-00; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:11:19 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA33773; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:11:18 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:11:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: For any sick-in-the-head C programmers In-Reply-To: <200001181550.BAA44174@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Reminds me of an old saying: "The C programming language combines all the power of assembly language with all the flexibility of assembly language." -=> jm <=- "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, and i didn't care which...." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 8:22: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eterna.binary.net (eterna.binary.net [12.13.84.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C36A14FB9 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nathan@rtfm.net) Received: from matrix.binary.net (root@matrix.binary.net [12.13.120.2]) by eterna.binary.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA61112; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:22:01 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nathan@localhost) by matrix.binary.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA44926; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:22:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:22:01 -0500 From: Nathan Dorfman To: Thomas Gellekum Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) Message-ID: <20000118112201.A44535@rtfm.net> References: <200001181134.MAA45912@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Thomas Gellekum on Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 12:44:19PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 12:44:19PM +0100, Thomas Gellekum wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: > > > Also, don't forget all those source lines where spaces could be > > unexpanded into tabs. There's an awfully lot of these, too. ;) > > Tabs should be expanded to four spaces, as everyone knows. Err...why? Leaving them as tabs allows anyone to use whatever tabstops they want (four? eight? two?). > tg -- Nathan Dorfman The statements and opinions in my Unix Admin @ Frontline Communications public posts are mine, not FCC's. "The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching train." --/usr/games/fortune To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 9:24: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A3614E4C for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:24:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12AcMO-000Nl0-00; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:24:04 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA34919 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:24:04 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:24:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: microsoft got it right... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does that mean M$ can tell what OS you are running at the moment, or what OS's you have installed on your machine? -=> jm <=- "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, and i didn't care which...." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 9:59:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7C014CA6; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:58:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA07091; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:54:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAbMaqSn; Tue Jan 18 10:53:54 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA07986; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:58:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001181758.KAA07986@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: time_t (was Re: I will never trust NBC news again!) To: andrews@TECHNOLOGIST.COM Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:58:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: oogali@intranova.net (Omachonu Ogali), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, eivind@FreeBSD.ORG (Eivind Eklund), mph@astro.caltech.edu (Matthew Hunt) In-Reply-To: from "Will Andrews" at Jan 16, 2000 03:02:38 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Why isn't it and why can't it be? > > Historical reasons. You're asking the entire computer industry > to change the standard libraries' use of the time_t typedef. > time_t starts on January 1, 1970 at 00:00 UTC. People who need > dates before that can write their own timekeeping libraries > that can easily "drop in" for their C libraries. > > Banks, crime depts, etc. are only a small portion of the "computer > user" legion. It would be a completely ridiculous idea to change > time_t everywhere. I would predict chaos, quite frankly. time_t is a signed value. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 10: 8:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90FF14DFB for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:08:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA28688; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:05:05 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000118185031.00c4e580@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:54:29 +0100 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: microsoft got it right... Cc: freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 17:24 18.01.00 +0000, you wrote: > >Does that mean M$ can tell what OS you are running at the moment, or >what OS's you have installed on your machine? > Hi! Ok, did not follow the thread from the beginning. In fact, if they set a cookie, they can easily know which OS you _are_ running at the moment. Sniffing your OS installed is far more complicated, you'd need at least some malicious code on the web page, like ActiveX or so.. Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- The power to serve ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 10:18:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB1214C91 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:18:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AdD1-000D48-00; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:18:27 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA35701; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:18:26 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:18:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Olaf Hoyer Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: microsoft got it right... In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000118185031.00c4e580@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I would have included the whole thread but i deleted it. In the archive from yesterday (i found it on the freebsd site with search) is a message about how MS has a lib function (the article included the link to the sdk site) that apparently lets them identify your OS, along with many other details. I wasn't sure if it was the OS running, or any installed OS. I can find the article if you like. -=> jm <=- "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, and i didn't care which...." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 10:24:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3AAC14C21 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:24:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21275; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:23:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:23:00 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Nathan Dorfman Cc: Thomas Gellekum , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) Message-ID: <20000118122300.A18846@futuresouth.com> References: <200001181134.MAA45912@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000118112201.A44535@rtfm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <20000118112201.A44535@rtfm.net> X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 11:22:01AM -0500, a little birdie told me that Nathan Dorfman remarked > On Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 12:44:19PM +0100, Thomas Gellekum wrote: > > Oliver Fromme writes: > > > > > Also, don't forget all those source lines where spaces could be > > > unexpanded into tabs. There's an awfully lot of these, too. ;) > > > > Tabs should be expanded to four spaces, as everyone knows. > > Err...why? Leaving them as tabs allows anyone to use whatever tabstops > they want (four? eight? two?). Unless they're using pico, in which case it's hardcoded into the source as 8-char. Numerically (not with a central constant). In about 8 places. If someone wants, I can dig up my patches to pico to make it use 4-char (necessary because a friend of mine uses it and we work on code together), which I believe also set it to use a constant in the header file instead of a bunch of hardcoded numbers distributed around the source. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 10:29:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3340314D96 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:29:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA05266; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:25:47 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000118192021.009be600@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:23:35 +0100 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: microsoft got it right... Cc: freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.20000118185031.00c4e580@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:18 18.01.00 +0000, you wrote: > >I would have included the whole thread but i deleted it. In the >archive from yesterday (i found it on the freebsd site with search) is >a message about how MS has a lib function (the article included the >link to the sdk site) that apparently lets them identify your OS, >along with many other details. I wasn't sure if it was the OS >running, or any installed OS. I can find the article if you like. Hi! You refer to the registration functionality of WIn xxx? Or some bad-ass code buried deep within that spies on you? Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- The power to serve ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 10:32:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C88991508B for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:31:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12AdPN-0001Kv-00; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:31:13 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA35879; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:31:13 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:31:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Olaf Hoyer Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: microsoft got it right... In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000118192021.009be600@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Olaf Hoyer wrote: >>along with many other details. I wasn't sure if it was the OS >>running, or any installed OS. I can find the article if you like. > >Hi! >You refer to the registration functionality of WIn xxx? > >Or some bad-ass code buried deep within that spies on you? I didn't post the lessage, so i'm really not sure. That's actually what i was trying to find out by my question. -=> jm <=- "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, and i didn't care which...." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 10:40: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C5714C86 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:40:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10440; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:39:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAGoaywu; Tue Jan 18 11:39:41 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09857; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:39:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001181839.LAA09857@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: funny repair remark To: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:39:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: from "Jonathon McKitrick" at Jan 17, 2000 05:30:23 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > >This wouldn't happen to be IBM's repair center in Memphis, would it? > > No, it's a Toshiba, which i have been otherwise very happy with. And they > must all work together on repairs... mine went to Tennessee as well. > > >Stay away from ThinkPads until and unless IBM hires a contractor > >that can do warranty repairs competently. > > I've heard to stay away from them in general.... IBM has been reported to send replacement units in at great expense; one anecdotal instance had them loading a replacement AS/400 onto a cargo plane in Germany to take to a central African country in order to honor a repair contract. They have also been anecdotally reported to have flown a replacement ThinkPad to an Australian who purchased the thing in the US, and for which the unit was not normally sold in Australia. The courier was a sales executive who happened to be travelling to Australia on business. IBM has also supported the idea of "FreeBSD certification" of IBM systems; Doug Ambrisko spent some time validating a machine, only to have the Advocacy group _not_ show up with a FreeBSD certification logo. IBM may be many things, but in the seven months since they purchased Whistle, it's bleedingly obvious to me that they have a very strong service philosophy. PS: Just so that people know my bias, I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the last time I was swallowed by a very large company, back when Novell bought USL, and I can still say nice things about both Novell and IBM. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 10:44:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11920150CA for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:43:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA22993; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:39:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAcYay2S; Tue Jan 18 11:38:54 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10178; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:43:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001181843.LAA10178@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: funny repair remark To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:43:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000117104743.019b33b0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Jan 17, 2000 10:49:43 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >This wouldn't happen to be IBM's repair center in Memphis, would it? > > > >No, it's a Toshiba, which i have been otherwise very happy with. And they > >must all work together on repairs... mine went to Tennessee as well. > > Ohmigod. You mean Solectron is the repair center for Toshiba, too? > The one on "Knight Road" in Memphis? If so, that's another brand of > laptop I will not buy. That would be the only US company to win two Malcolm Baldridge awards... that Solectron, right? > >I've heard to stay away from them in general.... > > Well, the ThinkPads with the MWave modem are particularly difficult > to use with FreeBSD. (By the way, has anyone here had any success > getting the MWave's Sound Blaster emulation code loaded under > FreeBSD? I haven't been able to do it yet.) Doug Ambrisko has everything working on his ThinkPad, including the wireless ethernet and DVD player. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 11: 4:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailtoaster1.pipeline.ch (mailtoaster1.pipeline.ch [62.48.0.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D251815129 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:04:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 43872 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2000 19:02:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) ([195.134.128.41]) (envelope-sender ) by mailtoaster1.pipeline.ch (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Jan 2000 19:02:32 -0000 Message-ID: <3884B915.7741A4D6@pipeline.ch> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:03:49 +0100 From: Andre Oppermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen McKay Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: For any sick-in-the-head C programmers References: <20000118082126.A7006@keltia.freenix.fr> <200001181527.BAA43810@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stephen McKay wrote: > > On Tuesday, 18th January 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > >On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > > >>> #define OPTION(c,v) (_O&2&&**v?*(*v)++:!c||_O&4?0:(!(_O&1)&& \ > >>> (--c,++v),_O=4,c&&**v=='-'&&v[0][1]?*++*v=='-'\ > >>> &&!v[0][1]?(--c,++v,0):(_O=2,*(*v)++):0)) > > > >So can someone explain what this actually *does*? > > You don't like obfuscated C puzzles? :-) Uh-oh! Did you ever look at this stuff?: http://www.ioccc.org/ After (trying) to read some of it, and not even understanding, you're ready for an brain surgery. -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 11:10:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.globix.net (postal.globix.net [204.254.224.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2650D15065 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:10:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uncleben@mindspring.com) Received: from uncleben (ncc-124.ops.nyc1.globix.net [209.10.69.124]) by postal.globix.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04565; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:07:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000118140611.00ba2ed0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: uncleben@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:09:13 -0500 To: Jonathon McKitrick , Brett Glass From: Ben Pitzer Subject: Re: funny repair remark Cc: freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000117104743.019b33b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:38 PM 1/18/00 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > >Ohmigod. You mean Solectron is the repair center for Toshiba, too? > >The one on "Knight Road" in Memphis? If so, that's another brand of > >laptop I will not buy. > >Well, i lucked out. All is well with the laptop, and sound is back to >spec. Wonderful! > >Question: would a repair company ever downgrade the CPU if they didn't >have the correct clock speed available? > >-=> jm <=- Heh, well I know the key now. I've got two Toshiba laptops at home, both belonging to my fiancee'. If I ever have a problem with them, I'll just install a new OS to have them replace the hardware, rather than install some BS patch to fix things. Hey, works for me! Ben Pitzer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 11:38:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gvr.gvr.org (gvr.gvr.org [194.151.74.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB816151FA for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:38:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from guido@gvr.org) Received: by gvr.gvr.org (Postfix, from userid 657) id 8F77EA843; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:38:35 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:38:35 +0100 From: Guido van Rooij To: Andre Albsmeier Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) Message-ID: <20000118203835.A4527@gvr.gvr.org> References: <20000117212309.A6625@internal> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <20000117212309.A6625@internal>; from Andre Albsmeier on Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 09:23:09PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 09:23:09PM +0100, Andre Albsmeier wrote: > Yesterday, I did some playing around with sed and grep. > As part of this, I tried to find files that have lines with > trailing whitespaces. Just for curiosity I ran tests on the > 3.4-STABLE sources. Here is the result: > > Total files in 3.4-STABLE: 19642 > Files with at least one trailing whitespace: 6769 = 34% > > Sum of all file lengths: 190767719 > Sum after removing all trailing whitespaces: 190615494 > ---------------- > 152225 Sssst! Don't tell Bruce. -Guido To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 11:48: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC0115140 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:48:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Aebf-00045m-00; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:47:59 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA37048; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:47:59 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:47:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Guido van Rooij Cc: Andre Albsmeier , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) In-Reply-To: <20000118203835.A4527@gvr.gvr.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Guido, Did your post about the microsoft OS identifying routine mean that M$ can ID our OSes even when they aren't running? -=> jm <=- "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, and i didn't care which...." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 12: 2:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C21D1504E for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:02:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11423; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:00:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:00:45 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: <200001181839.LAA09857@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > IBM has also supported the idea of "FreeBSD certification" of > IBM systems; Doug Ambrisko spent some time validating a > machine, only to have the Advocacy group _not_ show up with a > FreeBSD certification logo. > So what would we need to do in order to come up with something like this? THis is the first I'm hearing about it, but it seems like a damn important thing to do. Someone from FreeBSD.org should be here for LinuxWorld in a couple weeks and maybe I'll bring this up. Its certainly something I'd like to get involved with. > IBM may be many things, but in the seven months since they > purchased Whistle, it's bleedingly obvious to me that they have > a very strong service philosophy. > Yes, when I was working there, I got that feeling too, of course this was back when I was a linux weenie, which should sound really funny to some here =) -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 12:16:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eterna.binary.net (eterna.binary.net [12.13.84.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337A714A26 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:16:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nathan@rtfm.net) Received: from matrix.binary.net (root@matrix.binary.net [12.13.120.2]) by eterna.binary.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA66822; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:16:27 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nathan@localhost) by matrix.binary.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA51727; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:16:27 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:16:26 -0500 From: Nathan Dorfman To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Thomas Gellekum , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) Message-ID: <20000118151626.A51656@rtfm.net> References: <200001181134.MAA45912@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000118112201.A44535@rtfm.net> <20000118122300.A18846@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <20000118122300.A18846@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 12:23:00PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 12:23:00PM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > Unless they're using pico, in which case it's hardcoded into the source > as 8-char. Numerically (not with a central constant). In about 8 > places. What a coincidence -- I can think of about 8 places to stick pico. > -- > Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net > Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com > Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ > > "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I > haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" -- Nathan Dorfman The statements and opinions in my Unix Admin @ Frontline Communications public posts are mine, not FCC's. "The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching train." --/usr/games/fortune To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 12:41:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4074150E8 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:41:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@orion.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24315; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:40:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:40:55 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft go it right ;-) Message-ID: <20000118124055.A25770@orion.ac.hmc.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: ; from jooji@nickelkid.com on Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 09:24:26AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 09:24:26AM -0500, Jasper O'Malley wrote: > They all said it, in one form or another, around the same time. I've seen > at least a dozen different versions of the above quote, but the only one > I've seen with a citation was this one: > > "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary > safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin. > > >From "American Quotations," 1988, Carruth and Ehrlich, eds. I've seen it in several forms from several people. Since all of them were of equal presumed accuracy (i.e. unrefrenced quotes on the net) I just kept one at random. As you can see, I've decided to adopt the Benjamin Franklin quote since you provided a citation which should imporve it's chances of being accurate somewhat. ;-) -- Brooks -- "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 13:18:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C2B14FDA for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:18:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11359; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:18:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000118141721.019a1c80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:18:06 -0700 To: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) In-Reply-To: <20000118004038.B4216@keltia.freenix.fr> References: <4.2.2.20000117133712.01a01910@localhost> <20000117212309.A6625@internal> <4.2.2.20000117133712.01a01910@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:40 PM 1/17/2000 , Ollivier Robert wrote: >According to Brett Glass: > > Wow. Removing these could cut out a bunch of download time > > if you're on a slow link. > >Don't even think about it. Jordan and Rod Grimes probably still get nightmares >from the last time it was done (just before 2.0.5). That's probably because it was done all at once. What if source were ran through a formatter that removed tabs and trailing white spaces during the commit process? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 13:34:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C31F1517E for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:34:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11527; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:33:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000118143202.018f36d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:32:58 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: funny repair remark Cc: freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000117104743.019b33b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:38 AM 1/18/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >Well, i lucked out. All is well with the laptop, and sound is back to >spec. Wonderful! > >Question: would a repair company ever downgrade the CPU if they didn't >have the correct clock speed available? I've heard of it happening now and then. I asked IBM for a free *upgrade* of the CPU after all the trouble they caused me. Of course, they claimed they "couldn't" do that. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 14: 3:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.iafrica.com (smtp03.mweb.co.za [196.2.134.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5738114CAF for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:03:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dugg@iafrica.com) Received: from pta-dial-196-2-20-121.mweb.co.za ([196.2.20.121] helo=iafrica.com) by smtp03.iafrica.com with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for chat@FreeBSD.ORG id 12Agib-000Ety-00; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:03:18 +0200 Message-ID: <388434D7.88CBDD84@iafrica.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:39:35 +0200 From: Douglas Ulyate X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark References: <000001bf6135$00de68c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > > So how is the computer store looking for kiddy porn on Gary's computer, > finding it, and viewing it any different from Gary doing the same thing on > the 'Net? > I wouldn't think so. The sicker staff members probably burn it to a CD first. Personally, what is on a client's computer is their business. But, I guess if you come across a plane to assasinate some public figure, or something, you might have to act. Douglas -- Visit Sir Bismuth's Page: http://users.iafrica.com/d/du/dugg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 14: 8: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072D5150FA for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:07:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11950; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:06:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000118143609.01924f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:06:32 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick) From: Brett Glass Subject: IBM Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: <200001181839.LAA09857@usr08.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:39 AM 1/18/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >IBM has been reported to send replacement units in at great >expense; one anecdotal instance had them loading a replacement >AS/400 onto a cargo plane in Germany to take to a central >African country in order to honor a repair contract. > >They have also been anecdotally reported to have flown a >replacement ThinkPad to an Australian who purchased the >thing in the US, and for which the unit was not normally sold >in Australia. The courier was a sales executive who happened >to be travelling to Australia on business. > >IBM has also supported the idea of "FreeBSD certification" of >IBM systems; Doug Ambrisko spent some time validating a >machine, only to have the Advocacy group _not_ show up with a >FreeBSD certification logo. Obviously, these were different departments. This ThinkPad has been a great deal of trouble for me. Its power management has never worked correctly, and the thermal design is poor; when you put it into the docking station, the station places the fluid-filled heat exchanger up against a slab of insulating plastic. The unit gets so hot you can't touch it. The MWave modem originally did not work at 33.6 Kbps, and when they finally hacked the code so that it could, it was balky, slow, and shut off the sound while you were online. If the machine tried to make a sound during the call, the system crashed -- sometimes immediately, sometimes as you hung up. And, of course, IBM refuses to release the technical information that would let anyone develop a better driver or one for BSD. The modem -- in fact, the entire MWave -- is useless under BSD. The service I've gotten on this ThinkPad has likewise been horrendous, in part because it's outsourced to a chop shop called "Solectron." I suspect that IBM has lost money on the 760 laptops because they so frequently need repair. I do not know if this is why they try to charge users who send their machines in for warranty repair. Repair of my unit was held up for several days because their billing department wanted to charge me $300 -- for two tiny pieces of plastic which were dented but did not affect operation. (During the delay, they didn't order parts for the repairs which WERE covered by the warranty, even though they knew that those repairs were to be made even if I declined to pay for overpriced ones it did not need.) And I've already mentioned that the machine was TWICE not fixed properly. It's been back and forth to Memphis three times since the beginning of December, and FINALLY seems to be stable enough for me to reload my data onto it. >IBM may be many things, but in the seven months since they >purchased Whistle, it's bleedingly obvious to me that they have >a very strong service philosophy. It's hard to generalize about an organization as large as IBM. The IBM PC Company seems not to have such a strong service philosophy. IBM PC Direct, their sales division, once sent me an obviously used laptop when I ordered a new one. (The packaging was not intact, the AC adapter cord had a knot in the middle, and the previous user had already selected an OS -- so I could not choose OS/2 instead of Windows. >PS: Just so that people know my bias, I still have a bad taste >in my mouth from the last time I was swallowed by a very large >company, back when Novell bought USL, and I can still say nice >things about both Novell and IBM. Novell and IBM both have good sides and bad sides. But this is certainly the last time I'm buying a ThinkPad. Their PC Company seems to be one of the bad sides. --Brett P.S. -- I am currently working on a BSD driver for a Lexmark inkjet printer for which they only furnish Microsoft drivers. Alas, Lexmark (another IBM company) will only release the information required to write drivers under NDA. (I'm not sure why; there's nothing terribly unique about the way ANY of the major manufacturers' inkjets work.) I'd be willing to give away the source, but due to the NDA I won't be able to. (Sigh.) I will, however, publish binaries if I can. For the life of me, I don't understand why Lexmark wouldn't want the UNIX market to use their products. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 14: 9:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A42415116 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11978; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:08:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000118150704.018f6880@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:08:10 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: funny repair remark Cc: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: <200001181843.LAA10178@usr08.primenet.com> References: <4.2.2.20000117104743.019b33b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:43 AM 1/18/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >That would be the only US company to win two Malcolm Baldridge >awards... that Solectron, right? I have no idea. Certainly their behavior in this case does not suggest that they deserved any such award. > > Well, the ThinkPads with the MWave modem are particularly difficult > > to use with FreeBSD. (By the way, has anyone here had any success > > getting the MWave's Sound Blaster emulation code loaded under > > FreeBSD? I haven't been able to do it yet.) > >Doug Ambrisko has everything working on his ThinkPad, including >the wireless ethernet and DVD player. Is it one with an MWave? Does sound work? Does the internal modem? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 14:11:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93279150FA for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA12491; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:11:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAzSaqvy; Tue Jan 18 15:11:12 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12048; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:11:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001182211.PAA12048@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Swap Files vs Swap Partitions To: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:11:22 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dchulhan@uwi.tt (Dale Chulhan - Away), antionline@onelist.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000116183846.M508@fw.wintelcom.net> from "Alfred Perlstein" at Jan 16, 2000 06:38:46 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > looking for PROPER ( qualified ) answers to this question from a > > friend... > > > > > In the context of *nix...what are the distinct pros 'n cons > > > re: swap partitions vs. swapfiles???? apart from the obvious: > > > the filesystem overheads, I mean. > > exactly that. swap partitions are _much_ better than swapfiles, > note that some operating systems allow swapping to the free-space > on a filesystem, however once you get that far you are probably so > seriously hosed it's not worth the effort. Swap files go through the file system to the device driver to the disk. Swap partitions go through the device driver to the disk. Swap files are limited to the maximum file size. Swap partitions are limited to the maximum device size. If you run out of swap space on a partition, you can not recover. If you run out of swap space on a file, you can recover by permitting the growth of the file; however, if you place an administrative limit on the growth, then you in the same boat as if you wre using a partition. If your swap utilization is lowered on a swap partition, you can't recover the space for other uses. If your swap utilization is lowered on a swap file, you can recover the resources for use by other parts of the system. This is similar to other administrative resource limits, which can limit legitimate use of scare resources, in an ill-conceived attempt to "save the user" from themselves or a malicious user that you can't just kick off the machine; this works for ISPs and similar users, but for desktops and dedicated servers, it's kind of pointless to stage denial of service attacks against yourself. Administrative limits are also kind of useless when you have differential use of the machine (e.g. not the same kind of uniform load 24 hours a day, so it doesn't make sense to hog-tie your payroll runs at 3 AM to "protect" your database reports at 6 PM). In other words, swap files may seem to be a bad idea, but if you are going to disk anyway, dereferencing direct and indirect blocks are the least of your worries about latency issues, and the added flexibilty they offer when implemented correctly will generally more than make up for the problems you might encounter. As a final example, the NeXTStep OS used swap files, and so long as you dd'ed /dev/zero into the files before enabling swapping (to avoid overcommitting your available disk blocks for swapping), it was a wonderful feature that save our butts in Mathematica and FrameMaker on numerous occasions. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 14:38: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F69614F49 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:37:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA09023; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:37:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAIJaaIr; Tue Jan 18 15:37:33 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13223; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:37:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001182237.PAA13223@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: IBM To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:37:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000118143609.01924f00@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Jan 18, 2000 03:06:32 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Obviously, these were different departments. > > This ThinkPad has been a great deal of trouble for me. Its > power management has never worked correctly, and the thermal > design is poor; when you put it into the docking station, the > station places the fluid-filled heat exchanger up against a > slab of insulating plastic. The unit gets so hot you can't > touch it. The MWave modem originally did not work at 33.6 > Kbps, and when they finally hacked the code so that it could, > it was balky, slow, and shut off the sound while you were > online. If the machine tried to make a sound during the call, > the system crashed -- sometimes immediately, sometimes as you > hung up. I can't tell if you are saying this is a Windows crash or a BSD crash... if a Windows, all I can say is "Well, Duh!, that's the reason for Windows, it's what it does". If you are complaining about a BSD crash, it is perfectly legal, in Findland, Germany, and elsewhere, to take the Windows drivers and run them through "Sourcer" from V Communications, Inc. (Frank van Gilluwe's company, author of "The Undocumented PC"), and then use this documented source code to as interface documentation to create a BSD driver. I am deeply surprised that the countries where this is legal do not have more of this going on; if I were a citizen there, you could be guaranteed that I would spend much of my time getting my hands on hardware with Windows drivers, and making BSD drivers. Linux seems to have learned how to do this. If that isn't enough, the MWave modem was widely criticized when it was released, as any "Winmodem" or DSP codec-based modem so far released. Unless you got a prerelease of the hardware, you have only yourself to blame. > And, of course, IBM refuses to release the technical > information that would let anyone develop a better driver > or one for BSD. The modem -- in fact, the entire MWave -- > is useless under BSD. The documentation is attainable. I will personally put up half the cost of a copy of "Sourcer" for up to 5 people who agree to do the reverse engineering work, and are familiar enough with Windows and FreeBSD to do the work, and will agree to send the software to someone else in that position, should they not produce one driver every six months. As far as the hard part about WinModems, I seriously doubt you will be able to utilize the "modem" part under any circumstances, regardless of whether or not IBM (or any other vendor) releases all of the technical information that they can legally release. This is because the CODEC that is necessary to utilize such a modem is both Copyright and Patented in most cases. However, I would be happy to pursue documentation for what can be legally released (e.g. that is not under non-disclosure from another vendor) on your behalf; however, I doubt the availability of the CODEC license will allow you to get very far, regardless of the documentation. > The service I've gotten on this ThinkPad has likewise been > horrendous, in part because it's outsourced to a chop shop > called "Solectron." I suspect that IBM has lost money on the > 760 laptops because they so frequently need repair. I do > not know if this is why they try to charge users who send > their machines in for warranty repair. Repair of my unit > was held up for several days because their billing department > wanted to charge me $300 -- for two tiny pieces of plastic > which were dented but did not affect operation. (During > the delay, they didn't order parts for the repairs > which WERE covered by the warranty, even though they knew > that those repairs were to be made even if I declined to pay > for overpriced ones it did not need.) And I've already mentioned > that the machine was TWICE not fixed properly. You need to call you Customer Care Representative, whose sole job is to fight tooth and nail on your behalf. > It's been back and forth to Memphis three times since the > beginning of December, and FINALLY seems to be stable enough > for me to reload my data onto it. So it was fixed. > >IBM may be many things, but in the seven months since they > >purchased Whistle, it's bleedingly obvious to me that they have > >a very strong service philosophy. > > It's hard to generalize about an organization as large as IBM. > The IBM PC Company seems not to have such a strong service > philosophy. IBM PC Direct, their sales division, once sent me > an obviously used laptop when I ordered a new one. (The > packaging was not intact, the AC adapter cord had a knot > in the middle, and the previous user had already selected > an OS -- so I could not choose OS/2 instead of Windows. You haven't been through the Cultural Indoctrination Process; you may have had a bad experience (which seems predicated on buying a modem that was knowingly not supported by BSD, and which doubled as a sound card, and then trying to use it as a modem), but I can tell you that they are agressively service oriented. Julian and Archie will tell you the same thing, since they are also recent indoctrinees. > >PS: Just so that people know my bias, I still have a bad taste > >in my mouth from the last time I was swallowed by a very large > >company, back when Novell bought USL, and I can still say nice > >things about both Novell and IBM. > > Novell and IBM both have good sides and bad sides. But this > is certainly the last time I'm buying a ThinkPad. Their > PC Company seems to be one of the bad sides. Well, that's too bad. Unfortunately, if there's no customer base for off-brand OSs, then there will never be support for those OSs forthcoming. > P.S. -- I am currently working on a BSD driver for a Lexmark > inkjet printer for which they only furnish Microsoft drivers. > Alas, Lexmark (another IBM company) will only release > the information required to write drivers under NDA. (I'm not > sure why; there's nothing terribly unique about the way ANY > of the major manufacturers' inkjets work.) I'm pretty sure that it's the same reason Adaptec invented their HIM layer for microcode: to prevent people from building clone hardware that utilized drivers that they had invested engineering effort in writing. It's a means of using software license to protect a hardware market, where margins are often hovering around 3%. All hardware manufacturers do this; it's probably quasi-legal, if they have significant marketshare where they do it. > I'd be willing to > give away the source, but due to the NDA I won't be able > to. (Sigh.) I will, however, publish binaries if I can. Binaries. > For the life of me, I don't understand why Lexmark wouldn't > want the UNIX market to use their products. What UNIX market? How many lost sales have they suffered because of this? Where's the IDC report to back up the lost sales numbers to the marketing people? But that aside, I've described the process for revealing interfaces and offered to go half-sies with you on funding it. I really don't know what else I can personally do. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 14:41: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54AB614D77 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:40:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA09992; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:40:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAavaGBt; Tue Jan 18 15:40:24 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13415; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:40:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001182240.PAA13415@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: funny repair remark To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:40:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000118150704.018f6880@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Jan 18, 2000 03:08:10 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >That would be the only US company to win two Malcolm Baldridge > >awards... that Solectron, right? > > I have no idea. Certainly their behavior in this case does not > suggest that they deserved any such award. Well, then you know to whom you can complain: IBM, Solectron, and the awards people; I personally don't represent any of those, so it's little use to vent at me. > > > Well, the ThinkPads with the MWave modem are particularly difficult > > > to use with FreeBSD. (By the way, has anyone here had any success > > > getting the MWave's Sound Blaster emulation code loaded under > > > FreeBSD? I haven't been able to do it yet.) > > > >Doug Ambrisko has everything working on his ThinkPad, including > >the wireless ethernet and DVD player. > > Is it one with an MWave? Does sound work? Does the internal modem? I doubt he would buy hardware that was legally encumbered to the point that, even if you reverse engineered the interfaces to download a CODEC, you wouldn't have legal access to the CODEC. I suspect that if it has an MWave card, it is being used solely as a DSP for sound, and not as a (cruddy) modem. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 14:41:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C04A14BF4 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:41:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12299; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:30:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000118150911.018f59b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:09:49 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick , Guido van Rooij From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) Cc: Andre Albsmeier , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000118203835.A4527@gvr.gvr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:47 PM 1/18/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >Guido, > >Did your post about the microsoft OS identifying routine mean that M$ >can ID our OSes even when they aren't running? I think you misunderstand. That API is used by a program running on a server to determine what's running on the CLIENT. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 15:48:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E1ED14E8C for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:48:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13286; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:46:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000118162503.0193bc60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:46:53 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: <200001182237.PAA13223@usr09.primenet.com> References: <4.2.2.20000118143609.01924f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:37 PM 1/18/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >I can't tell if you are saying this is a Windows crash or a >BSD crash... if a Windows, all I can say is "Well, Duh!, that's >the reason for Windows, it's what it does". It's under Windows; after all, the modem doesn't work AT ALL under BSD. But while Windows is unstable, the modem driver should not be coded so badly as to lock up the machine. >If you are complaining about a BSD crash, it is perfectly legal, >in Findland, Germany, and elsewhere, to take the Windows drivers >and run them through "Sourcer" from V Communications, Inc. (Frank >van Gilluwe's company, author of "The Undocumented PC"), and >then use this documented source code to as interface documentation >to create a BSD driver. While Frank's an excellent programmer, I somehow do not think that Sourcer will disassemble the MWave code. ;-) >I am deeply surprised that the countries where this is legal >do not have more of this going on; if I were a citizen there, >you could be guaranteed that I would spend much of my time >getting my hands on hardware with Windows drivers, and making >BSD drivers. Linux seems to have learned how to do this. I'm not sure whether it's legal or illegal here. The only case in which I've heard of reverse engineering being claimed to be illegal is Microsoft v. Stac, which was settled. >If that isn't enough, the MWave modem was widely criticized when >it was released, as any "Winmodem" or DSP codec-based modem so >far released. Unless you got a prerelease of the hardware, you >have only yourself to blame. There wasn't any other option on that machine. If I'd known that IBM would do such a poor job of writing drivers, or about the OTHER flaws in that unit (which none of the reviewers had documented), I wouldn't have bought it. Ditto if I'd known how badly they'd support OS/2 (which is what I wanted to run on it when I bought it). > > And, of course, IBM refuses to release the technical > > information that would let anyone develop a better driver > > or one for BSD. The modem -- in fact, the entire MWave -- > > is useless under BSD. > >The documentation is attainable. I will personally put up half >the cost of a copy of "Sourcer" for up to 5 people who agree >to do the reverse engineering work, and are familiar enough with >Windows and FreeBSD to do the work, and will agree to send the >software to someone else in that position, should they not >produce one driver every six months. I already have a copy of Sourcer, plus Andrew Schulman's Windows disassembly tools for it. But again, I don't think Sourcer can disassemble the MWave code. >As far as the hard part about WinModems, I seriously doubt you >will be able to utilize the "modem" part under any circumstances, >regardless of whether or not IBM (or any other vendor) releases >all of the technical information that they can legally release. >This is because the CODEC that is necessary to utilize such a >modem is both Copyright and Patented in most cases. Most often, the vendor of the hardware has already paid the required royalty. Rockwell pays royalties on the Heatherington patent for all buyers of its hardware. I'm sure that, in the case of the ThinkPad, the royalty has been paid before the computer leaves the shop. >You need to call you Customer Care Representative, whose sole >job is to fight tooth and nail on your behalf. I did! She tried valiantly. > > It's been back and forth to Memphis three times since the > > beginning of December, and FINALLY seems to be stable enough > > for me to reload my data onto it. > >So it was fixed. After I lost the use of it for a month and a half and had to purchase a replacement in the interim. >You haven't been through the Cultural Indoctrination Process; >you may have had a bad experience (which seems predicated on >buying a modem that was knowingly not supported by BSD, and >which doubled as a sound card, and then trying to use it as a >modem), but I can tell you that they are agressively service >oriented. Julian and Archie will tell you the same thing, >since they are also recent indoctrinees. No, I'm afraid that my opinions are based solely on actual experience, not indoctrination! ;-) >Well, that's too bad. Unfortunately, if there's no customer >base for off-brand OSs, then there will never be support for >those OSs forthcoming. Should I sacrifice myself on that altar? Especially when IBM is saying "Linux, Linux, Linux" and ignores e-mail asking about BSD support? It appears that IBM is already on the Linux bandwagon and is not even doing very well at backing THAT up with action. >I'm pretty sure that it's the same reason Adaptec invented their >HIM layer for microcode: to prevent people from building clone >hardware that utilized drivers that they had invested engineering >effort in writing. Since the drivers for OSes such as Windows would have GUIs that proudly display the name of the printer for which they were intended, it seems unlikely that a company would want to make a printer that's compatible with someone else's proprietary drivers. However, there IS an advantage in creating a standard language. HP has had great success due to PCL. > > For the life of me, I don't understand why Lexmark wouldn't > > want the UNIX market to use their products. > >What UNIX market? How many lost sales have they suffered >because of this? Where's the IDC report to back up the lost >sales numbers to the marketing people? Would they care even if presented with these numbers? >But that aside, I've described the process for revealing >interfaces and offered to go half-sies with you on funding >it. I really don't know what else I can personally do. I'm not asking you to do anything for me in this case. The MWave seems to have been phased out, so writing drivers for it is of limited value now. My short-term strategy is to avoid using hardware which is Windows-specific. In the long term, I wouldn't mind writing more drivers that support hardware that's supposedly Windows- specific -- provided that I can get the information to do so. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 15:50:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B0EA14DB1 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:50:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13316; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:48:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000118164706.0193cb40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:48:56 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: funny repair remark Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: <200001182240.PAA13415@usr09.primenet.com> References: <4.2.2.20000118150704.018f6880@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:40 PM 1/18/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >Well, then you know to whom you can complain: IBM, Solectron, >and the awards people; I personally don't represent any of >those, so it's little use to vent at me. Why do you get the impression that I'm venting at you? I'm simply chatting about my experiences. > > Is it one with an MWave? Does sound work? Does the internal modem? > >I doubt he would buy hardware that was legally encumbered to >the point that, even if you reverse engineered the interfaces >to download a CODEC, you wouldn't have legal access to the >CODEC. > >I suspect that if it has an MWave card, it is being used solely >as a DSP for sound, and not as a (cruddy) modem. I haven't been able to get the MWave to emulate a Sound Blaster under BSD either, alas. What's his secret? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 16: 0:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E1714F1E for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:00:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13418; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:57:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000118165402.018f7140@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:57:33 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:37 PM 1/18/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >you may have had a bad experience (which seems predicated on >buying a modem that was knowingly not supported by BSD, and >which doubled as a sound card, and then trying to use it as a >modem), The experience I originally reported had to do with their repair service, which I'm sure you will agree was inexcusably bad. Yes, the problems with the MWave were also annoying, but these could have been solved if IBM wanted them to be. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 16:45:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id DE58214E14; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3CB1CD645; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:45:08 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000118141721.019a1c80@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > That's probably because it was done all at once. What if source were ran > through a formatter that removed tabs and trailing white spaces during the > commit process? Bruce would turn purple and have fits :-) Kris ---- "How many roads must a man walk down, before you call him a man?" "Eight!" "That was a rhetorical question!" "Oh..then, seven!" -- Homer Simpson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 18: 4:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.x-treme.gr (mx2.x-treme.gr [212.120.192.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB4914D5F for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:04:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat44.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.236]) by mx2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id DAA22475; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:59:08 +0200 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA57094; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:24:00 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:24:00 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anders Andersson Cc: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-native English (was: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 sysctl.conf.5) Message-ID: <20000119002400.A57016@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <85ta0f$1fkh$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200001170736.IAA99539@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000117185918.C368@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <20000118003451.A4216@keltia.freenix.fr> <20000118080945.A22380@enterprise.sanyusan.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <20000118080945.A22380@enterprise.sanyusan.se> X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 08:09:46AM +0100, Anders Andersson wrote: > On Tis, Jan 18, 2000 at 12:34:51am +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > According to Dag-Erling Smorgrav: > > > > This confirms my suspicion. You and Adam are the only two non-native > > > > English speakers on this thread, and you both confirm that the > > > > contractions are no source of confusion. > > > > > > Me three. > > > > If I may, me 4 :-) > > I will only agree, me 5! I can't resist being myself number 6. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > "Don't let your schooling interfere with your education." [??] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 18:58:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.x-treme.gr (mx2.x-treme.gr [212.120.192.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD9115111 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:58:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat44.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.236]) by mx2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id DAA22478; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:59:13 +0200 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA57117; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:28:57 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:28:57 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Nathan Dorfman , Thomas Gellekum , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) Message-ID: <20000119002857.B57016@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <200001181134.MAA45912@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000118112201.A44535@rtfm.net> <20000118122300.A18846@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <20000118122300.A18846@futuresouth.com> X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 12:23:00PM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > Unless they're using pico, in which case it's hardcoded into the > source as 8-char. Numerically (not with a central constant). In > about 8 places. > > If someone wants, I can dig up my patches to pico to make it use > 4-char (necessary because a friend of mine uses it and we work on > code together), which I believe also set it to use a constant in the > header file instead of a bunch of hardcoded numbers distributed > around the source. Umm... well, did it occur to you that you might just be a bit (or a few bytes) happier without using pico, instead of trying to patch it? I'll refrain myself from suggesting alternatives in a hopeless effort to avoid starting a new editor flamewar. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > "Don't let your schooling interfere with your education." [??] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 20: 8:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2179814F1E for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:08:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id FAA29891 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 05:08:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id DCD0E8863; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:31:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:31:31 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) Message-ID: <20000119013131.A12781@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.2.2.20000117133712.01a01910@localhost> <20000117212309.A6625@internal> <4.2.2.20000117133712.01a01910@localhost> <20000118004038.B4216@keltia.freenix.fr> <4.2.2.20000118141721.019a1c80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000118141721.019a1c80@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 02:18:06PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Brett Glass: > That's probably because it was done all at once. What if source were ran > through a formatter that removed tabs and trailing white spaces during the > commit process? Diff obfuscation is the major problem here and would make "cvs diff" "cvs rdiff" unusable because you have to sort which deltas are for whitespace removal and the others. You don't want that. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #77: Thu Dec 30 12:49:51 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 20:22:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00DAF14EBE for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:22:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Amdb-000Hfo-00; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 04:22:31 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA44854; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 04:22:31 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 04:22:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000118143202.018f36d0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: >>Question: would a repair company ever downgrade the CPU if they didn't >>have the correct clock speed available? > >I've heard of it happening now and then. I asked IBM for a free *upgrade* >of the CPU after all the trouble they caused me. Of course, they claimed >they "couldn't" do that. Well, i checked dmesg and my CPU was spared, apparently. -=> jm <=- "Doors to the pleasures of heaven or hell, and i didn't care which...." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 18 22:15:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0307151EE for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:15:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24509; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:11:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:11:49 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr Cc: Nathan Dorfman , Thomas Gellekum , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) Message-ID: <20000119001149.A24456@futuresouth.com> References: <200001181134.MAA45912@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000118112201.A44535@rtfm.net> <20000118122300.A18846@futuresouth.com> <20000119002857.B57016@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <20000119002857.B57016@hades.hell.gr> X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 19, 2000 at 12:28:57AM +0200, a little birdie told me that Giorgos Keramidas remarked > > Umm... well, did it occur to you that you might just be a bit (or a few > bytes) happier without using pico, instead of trying to patch it? > > I'll refrain myself from suggesting alternatives in a hopeless effort > to avoid starting a new editor flamewar. I personally would be a LOT happier without pico. Unfortunately, I'd like my friend to be productive in this code project we're working on, so for the time being (until I finish converting him and getting him comfortable with vi, the Supreme Good Editor) that means I have to give him pico. And some of this code is just useless to try and read with 8-char tabstops... -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 1: 5: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E850415297 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from tnt6-216-180-4-117.dialup.HiWAAY.net (tnt6-216-180-4-117.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.117]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id DAA04803; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:04:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:04:30 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in Nashville, TN? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Howdy all, > > Are there any FreeBSD user groups in Nashville, TN? If not, > is there any interest in starting one? I may be moving up > there in a short while and wanted to know what the OS climate > was like. I can put you in touch with a member of a Linux group up there... --- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 1:31:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C5F6150F9 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:31:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from tnt6-216-180-4-117.dialup.HiWAAY.net (tnt6-216-180-4-117.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.117]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id DAA24254; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:31:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:30:49 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr Cc: Anders Andersson , Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-native English (was: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 sysctl.conf.5) In-Reply-To: <20000119002400.A57016@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > > "Don't let your schooling interfere with your education." [??] Mark Twain, aka Samuel Clements ---- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 1:33:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gvr.gvr.org (gvr.gvr.org [194.151.74.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B685F1526E for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:33:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from guido@gvr.org) Received: by gvr.gvr.org (Postfix, from userid 657) id AB814A844; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:33:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:33:27 +0100 From: Guido van Rooij To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Andre Albsmeier , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) Message-ID: <20000119103327.A6987@gvr.gvr.org> References: <20000118203835.A4527@gvr.gvr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Jonathon McKitrick on Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 07:47:59PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 07:47:59PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Guido, > > Did your post about the microsoft OS identifying routine mean that M$ > can ID our OSes even when they aren't running? No. I did it because FreeBSD was assigned 42, the famous answer from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. -Guido To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 7:13:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DAB114E44 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:13:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.26.63]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOL005488NG7E@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:06:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01398; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:21:11 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:21:11 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-reply-to: <200001181839.LAA09857@usr08.primenet.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] >IBM has also supported the idea of "FreeBSD certification" of >IBM systems; Doug Ambrisko spent some time validating a >machine, only to have the Advocacy group _not_ show up with a >FreeBSD certification logo. Interesting. I always wondered what FreeBSD would be like on an SP. Are they willing to open up information for MCA, SSA and other useful devices? Rephrased, will we benefit from the current Linux hysteria at IBM? As an aside, there was some discussion in the past about the functionally useless but politically beneficial business of certification. Has anything changed and is there such a thing? IBM's backing of a FreeBSD certification would carry a lot of weight in the corporate and govt worlds. Do you know what IBM is doing with the *BSDs? -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 8:19:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F70F1529D for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:19:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21111; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:19:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000119091759.01a69cd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:19:28 -0700 To: Jay Nelson , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: funny repair remark Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200001181839.LAA09857@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:21 PM 1/18/2000 , Jay Nelson wrote: >Do you know what IBM is doing with the *BSDs? Well, for one thing, they bought Whistle. In general, they're doing what a lot of high-profile companies (including Intel, Maxtor, etc.) are doing: Touting support of Linux in a high-profile way, while using BSD UNIX as a "secret weapon," behind the scenes, in embedded work. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 10:58:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6384215322 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:58:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23353; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:58:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:58:15 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200001191858.TAA23353@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <862lcq$1p4b$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > At 04:40 PM 1/17/2000 , Ollivier Robert wrote: >>Don't even think about it. Jordan and Rod Grimes probably still get nightmares >>from the last time it was done (just before 2.0.5). > > That's probably because it was done all at once. What if source were ran > through a formatter that removed tabs and trailing white spaces during the > commit process? I think it should rather _insert_ tabs, not remove them. Well, it would make cvs diffs more obfuscated, even though diff has options -b and --ignore-space-change... Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 11:11:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from artsmail.uwaterloo.ca (artsmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.42.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF4114EE5 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmccolm@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca) Received: from artsu217.uwaterloo.ca (cmccolm@artsu217.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.42.43]) by artsmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id OAA13262 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:11:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cmccolm@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000119141151.0079ca70@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca> X-Sender: cmccolm@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:11:51 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Charles McColm Subject: subscribe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe .-'''''-. Charles McColm, cmccolm@artsu1.uwaterloo.ca .' `. University of Waterloo : : Honours Arts Undergraduate : : : _/| : "Thus thou hast seen one world begin, and end; : =/_/ : And Man, as from a second stock, proceed." `._/ | .' - PARADISE LOST, XII ( / ,|...-' \_/^\/||__ _/~ `""~`"` \_ __/ -'/ `-._ `\_\__ /jgs /-'` `\ \ \-.\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 15:17:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E466215346 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:17:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA03614 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:17:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:17:15 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: What Was I Smoking, or, First 2.1.x build of 2000? Message-ID: <20000119171714.D11587@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org root% uname -a FreeBSD musca.sighup.org 2.1-STABLE FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE #0: Wed Jan 19 07:31:26 CST 2000 fullermd@musca.sighup.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/MUSCA i386 On: CPU: i386DX (386-class CPU) real memory = 4587520 (4480K bytes) avail memory = 3174400 (3100K bytes) Approx. time to 'make world' (-O -pipe, NFS /usr/src and /usr/obj): 8 days. So, did anyone beat me to the title of 'First 2.1 build of 2000'? ;> -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 15:35: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3771314E5A for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:34:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id AAA03133 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:34:36 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id AAA68960; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:49:16 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <20000120004915.53375@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:49:15 +0100 From: Phil Regnauld To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Transmeta opens up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Very impressive technology -- 20mW processors :-))) http://www2adm.transmeta.com/crusoe/technology.html http://www2adm.transmeta.com/crusoe/lowpower/ -- Y2k happened without any problems. To remind us of how it could have been, Microsoft has just released Windows 2000. -- BSD/Dk -- Danish *BSD User Group -- http://www.bsd-dk.dk -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 16:13: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB65614DF3 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:13:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA35678; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 01:13:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 01:13:02 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200001200013.BAA35678@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Transmeta opens up X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <865hnu$gub$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Phil Regnauld wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > Very impressive technology -- 20mW processors :-))) Well, in sleep mode. Under normal operation it's 1 - 2W. But that's still pretty good. :-) Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 19:55:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E50614DAC for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:55:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.45.71]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOM002YQ87ESG@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:54:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02513 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:47:03 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:47:03 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Curious header (Was: Re: funny repair remark) In-reply-to: <4.2.2.20000119091759.01a69cd0@localhost> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett's response appeared for the second time, identical to the first with the exception of the route indicated by the header. This copy took a trip through a portal called thrunet.com. Does anyone know how and why this happened? -- Jay From brett@localhost.rcsntx.swbell.net Wed Jan 19 20:00:34 2000 -----------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is curious, too. This didn't show up in Brett's original response. Return-Path: Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02252 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:00:32 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from brett@localhost.rcsntx.swbell.net) Received: from postoffice.swbell.net by localhost with IMAP (fetchmail-5.0.4) for noslenj@swbell.net (single-drop); Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:00:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4-pr.rcsntx.swbell.net) by sims1.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.07.30.00.05.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOM00KV70I2XH@sims1.rcsntx.swbell.net> for noslenj@sims-ms-daemon; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:08:32 -0600 (CST) ->Received: from smtp.thrunet.com ([210.117.65.9]) by ->mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net -> (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) -> with ESMTP id <0FOM00HS90HL3X@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for -> noslenj@Sims1.rcsntx.swbell.net; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:08:10 -0600 (CST) -> Received: from mail pickup service by smtp.thrunet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; -> Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:01:31 +0900 -> Received: from mail pickup service by smtp.mailhost.thrunet.com with Microsoft -> SMTPSVC; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:46:41 +0900 -> Received: from hub.freebsd.org ([204.216.27.18]) by smtp.thrunet.com with -> Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Thu, 20 Jan 2000 02:55:54 +0900 -> Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 538) id 09A54152E4; Wed, -> 19 Jan 2000 08:19:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EC8471CD644; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:19:42 -0800 (PST envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: by hub.freebsd.org (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:19:42 -0800 Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F70F1529D for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:19:40 -0800 (PST envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21111; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:19:33 -0700 (MST) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 20:36: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3931214F1C for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:36:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29608; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:21:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000119211932.00af6c40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:21:20 -0700 To: Jay Nelson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Curious header (Was: Re: funny repair remark) In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000119091759.01a69cd0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not I! Note the references to "Microsoft SMTPSVC" in the headers. Maybe it's one of the zillion bugs in NT. --Brett At 08:47 PM 1/19/2000 , Jay Nelson wrote: >Brett's response appeared for the second time, identical to the first >with the exception of the route indicated by the header. This copy >took a trip through a portal called thrunet.com. Does anyone know how >and why this happened? > >-- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 20:50:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CA2D14E9F for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@oldserver.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.105.241] (helo=propro) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 12B9Xr-000354-00; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 04:50:07 +0000 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 05:50:06 +0100 (CET) From: Marc Schneiders To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What Was I Smoking, or, First 2.1.x build of 2000? In-Reply-To: <20000119171714.D11587@futuresouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > root% uname -a > FreeBSD musca.sighup.org 2.1-STABLE FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE #0: Wed Jan 19 > 07:31:26 CST 2000 > fullermd@musca.sighup.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/MUSCA i386 > > On: > CPU: i386DX (386-class CPU) > real memory = 4587520 (4480K bytes) > avail memory = 3174400 (3100K bytes) > > Approx. time to 'make world' (-O -pipe, NFS /usr/src and /usr/obj): 8 days. > > > So, did anyone beat me to the title of 'First 2.1 build of 2000'? ;> > I am jealous, even though I have a 'server' up for two weeks running 4.0-CURRENT on 4 MB RAM: http://niet.openbaar.net -- Marc Schneiders marc@venster.nl marc@oldserver.demon.nl propro 5:20am up 5 days, 5:09, load average: 2.03 2.05 2.01 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 19 22:16: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABDD15366 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:16:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA25311; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 01:15:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200001200615.BAA25311@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000119013131.A12781@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 01:15:47 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Ollivier Robert Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces : Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19-Jan-00 Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Brett Glass: >> That's probably because it was done all at once. What if source were ran >> through a formatter that removed tabs and trailing white spaces during the >> commit process? > > Diff obfuscation is the major problem here and would make "cvs diff" "cvs > rdiff" unusable because you have to sort which deltas are for whitespace > removal and the others. cvs diff -b? > You don't want that. > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- > roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #77: Thu Dec 30 12:49:51 CET 1999 -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 0:37: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6964815208 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:36:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mw@theatre.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id JAA09208; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:36:52 +0100 (CET) Received: (from mw@localhost) by theatre.lan (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA14723; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 06:08:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mw) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 06:08:58 +0100 From: Martin Welk To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Was I Smoking, or, First 2.1.x build of 2000? Message-ID: <20000120060858.C13227@theatre.lan> Reply-To: mw@sax.de References: <20000119171714.D11587@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000119171714.D11587@futuresouth.com>; from fullermd@futuresouth.com on Wed, Jan 19, 2000 at 05:17:15PM -0600 Organization: Private UUCP/Usenet site. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 19, 2000 at 05:17:15PM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On: > CPU: i386DX (386-class CPU) > real memory = 4587520 (4480K bytes) > avail memory = 3174400 (3100K bytes) I already mentioned somewhere on some mailing lists that good old 386DX20 I was using in 1994 with FreeBSD-1.1-R - it was a fine machine, but making a kernel took about 8-9 hours (3 MByte RAM but SCSI disks) as it was constantly swapping meanwhile, and although at that time I really didn't think of making the world, I wouldn't have tried that without a good UPS on such a machine :-) (It's a little like building PCL font images from description files under Windows, for 50-60 mbytes of fonts I remember more than two days on a 386 - hey, this was in 1988 and there were not much Windoze users speaking of PostScript this time :-) Regards, Martin -- /| /| | /| / ,,You know, there's a lot of opportunities, / |/ | artin |/ |/ elk if you're knowing to take them, you know, there's a lot of opportunities, Freiberg/Saxony, Germany if there aren't you can make them, mw@sax.de / mw@theatre.sax.de make or break them!'' (Tennant/Lowe) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 0:40:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.x-treme.gr (mx2.x-treme.gr [212.120.192.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7B3153CA for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:40:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from localhost.hell.gr (pat39.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.231]) by mx2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id KAA14935; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:39:58 +0200 Received: (from charon@localhost) by localhost.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02959; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:31:15 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:31:15 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Pico, indentation (was: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources ...) Message-ID: <20000120083115.B2879@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <200001181134.MAA45912@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000118112201.A44535@rtfm.net> <20000118122300.A18846@futuresouth.com> <20000119002857.B57016@hades.hell.gr> <20000119001149.A24456@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <20000119001149.A24456@futuresouth.com> X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 19, 2000 at 12:11:49AM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > I personally would be a LOT happier without pico. Unfortunately, I'd > like my friend to be productive in this code project we're working on, so > for the time being (until I finish converting him and getting him > comfortable with vi, the Supreme Good Editor) that means I have to give > him pico. And some of this code is just useless to try and read with > 8-char tabstops... You know what they say. If your indentation level exceeds a well defined limit (the 80 characters of a terminal line being one such, uhm, `well defined limit'), you might have to reconsider your design. Without any intention to offend anyone, I'd suggest your friend starts reading that style(9) manpage. Ciao. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > "Don't let your schooling interfere with your education." [Mark Twain] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 0:53:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw-laissus.laissus.fr (gw-laissus.laissus.fr [193.104.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481AF152A9 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:53:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fla@laissus.fr) Received: from myriade.laissus.fr by gw-laissus.laissus.fr with ESMTP (8.9.3/fla-28.10.1999) id JAA16016; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:53:40 +0100 (CET) Received: by myriade.laissus.fr Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:53:39 +0100 From: Francois LAISSUS To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Licence for ApplixWare for FBSD ? Message-ID: <20000120095339.A587@myriade.laissus.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE #18 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Could anybody say anything about "Licence for Applixware" ? From the main screen Tools->Licence there is a beautiful dialog-box to input type of licence and associated keys ... The help-on-line speaks about a 30 days lifetime Is this interface usefull with this ported application ? Thanks François To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 1:16:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sblake.comcen.com.au (sblake.comcen.com.au [203.23.236.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7CAB1538C for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 01:16:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aunty@sblake.comcen.com.au) Received: (from aunty@localhost) by sblake.comcen.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA34031; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:18:07 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from aunty) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:18:07 +1100 From: aunty To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) Message-ID: <20000120201807.E32295@comcen.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200001181134.MAA45912@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000118112201.A44535@rtfm.net> <20000118122300.A18846@futuresouth.com> <20000119002857.B57016@hades.hell.gr> <20000119001149.A24456@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000119001149.A24456@futuresouth.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 19, 2000 at 12:11:49AM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Wed, Jan 19, 2000 at 12:28:57AM +0200, a little birdie told me > that Giorgos Keramidas remarked > > > > Umm... well, did it occur to you that you might just be a bit (or a few > > bytes) happier without using pico, instead of trying to patch it? > > > > I'll refrain myself from suggesting alternatives in a hopeless effort > > to avoid starting a new editor flamewar. > > I personally would be a LOT happier without pico. Unfortunately, I'd > like my friend to be productive in this code project we're working on, so > for the time being (until I finish converting him and getting him > comfortable with vi, the Supreme Good Editor) that means I have to give > him pico. And some of this code is just useless to try and read with > 8-char tabstops... No problem. Just install the joe port and have him type 'jpico' instead. He can use all the familiar keys, plus lots of extras, and you get to edit a plain text .jpicorc to set whatever defaults instead of wasting time fixing that which doesn't want to be fixed. Recently I substituted jpico for pico, for a bunch of long term pico novices. Few noticed, nobody complained, one started exploring macros. (I hate jpico myself but it seems to meet certain needs.) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 3: 6:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67C214E2C; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 03:06:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA69559; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:06:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:06:17 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200001201106.MAA69559@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: time sync problem--ntpdate AND xntpd?? X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-questions In-Reply-To: <865k6g$ibj$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to -chat] Harry Woodward-Clarke wrote in list.freebsd-questions: > Walter Brameld wrote: >> By the way, what does..... >> >> > "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" >> > (Terry Pratchett) >> mean? > > from babelfish.altavista.com... > > "in each piece [of] coal a diamond waits for its birth" That translation is surprisingly accurate for babelfish. :) Sorry that I don't have separate signatures for German and international mailing lists. It's a quote from a great book by Terry Patchett, who's often called the ``Douglas Adams of Fantasy'' -- the original is in English, of course, but I only have the German translation. The German title of the book is ``Gevatter Tod'' (published by Goldmann Verlag, ISBN 3-442- 41551-9), the original is ``Reaper Man'', published by Victor Gollancz Ltd., London. I have to say that this is probably the best book I've read in my life (so far). It's a very humorous story from the ``disc world'', with a lot of ``sense of wonder'', and it's surprisingly emotional given the fact that the main protagonist is Mr. Death himself... If you like Douglas Adam's "Hitchhiker Trilogy", you will love this book. I can recommend it to everyone. Regards Oliver PS: In this book, "Death" lives incognito on the disc world for some time in a small village under the name "Bill Door". Although I think it's coincidental, it leaves room for some thoughts... ;-) -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 7: 4:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 769A614FBA; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:04:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: noslenj@swbell.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Jay Nelson on Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:47:03 -0600 (CST)) Subject: Re: Curious header (Was: Re: funny repair remark) Message-Id: <20000120150443.769A614FBA@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:04:43 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org the one subscriber from thru.net has been removed from the lists. i have sent him mail asking him to look into his email configuration. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 7: 9:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE0314BCE for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:09:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (m21.chn.vsnl.net.in [202.54.43.229] (may be forged)) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA06000 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 01:38:50 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA00975 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:38:23 +0530 (IST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:38:22 +0530 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Another Linux benchmark (was: Off Topic Humour) Message-ID: <20000120203822.A937@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Forwarded message from Joel Sutton ----- > Mailing-List: contact general-help@vicfug.au.freebsd.org; run by ezmlm > Delivered-To: mailing list general@vicfug.au.freebsd.org > X-Authentication-Warning: stargate.home: jsutton owned process doing -bs > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:52:17 +1100 (EST) > X-Sender: jsutton@stargate.home > To: Victorias FreeBSD User Group > > Howdy, > > Check out the "Linux Vs. Chicken Independent Benchmarking Study". I know > the URL looks bad, but there's nothing graphic there: > > http://www.sexcowairlines.com/linchick.shtml > > Thanks to Marc for this URL. > > Enjoy!!! > > Cheers, Joel... > > --- > Joel Sutton | Busy Bee Consulting > Phone: 0409 426-563 | Melbourne, Australia > Email: jsutton@bbcon.com.au | http://www.bbcon.com.au/ > VicFUG Webmaster/Acting President | http://www.vicfug.au.freebsd.org/ > > ---------------- ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 11:49:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32B3214D60 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:49:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07512; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:49:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000120124650.0172c100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:49:10 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Another Linux benchmark (was: Off Topic Humour) In-Reply-To: <20000120203822.A937@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:08 AM 1/20/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > > Howdy, > > > > Check out the "Linux Vs. Chicken Independent Benchmarking Study". I know > > the URL looks bad, but there's nothing graphic there: > > > > http://www.sexcowairlines.com/linchick.shtml > > > > Thanks to Marc for this URL. > > > > Enjoy!!! Of course, if the chicken WERE really Linux-compatible, it would doubtless come with a license that required all of its ofspring to be "free range" chickens. And Richard Stallman would get all of the eggs. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 13: 8:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3AC14F1C for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA24802; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:07:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAzQaqzW; Thu Jan 20 14:07:04 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16183; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:07:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001202107.OAA16183@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: funny repair remark To: noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:07:08 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jay Nelson" at Jan 18, 2000 06:21:11 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >IBM has also supported the idea of "FreeBSD certification" of > >IBM systems; Doug Ambrisko spent some time validating a > >machine, only to have the Advocacy group _not_ show up with a > >FreeBSD certification logo. > > Interesting. I always wondered what FreeBSD would be like on an SP. Any real advocate, I think, has wondered the same thing. > Are they willing to open up information for MCA, SSA and other useful > devices? The MCA stuff is well documented. I have a 386 PS/2 box that runs using ABIOS and FreeBSD circa 1995, though I haven't cranked it up in a year or so. The MCA stuff is documented at: http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/ Along with a lot of other stuff. You have me at a disadvantage with "SAA"; I assume you mean AS/400. The AS/400 is unsuited to running C. It uses a 64 bit pointer, 8 bits of which are a check-value. This means that running C code that does pointer arithmatic or array indexing would be nearly impossible with a free compiler. > Rephrased, will we benefit from the current Linux hysteria at > IBM? FreeBSD will benefit, if FreeBSD grabs the opportunities it is presented; just as FreeBSD has been able to benefit from other aspects of the Linux phenomenon. The lack of tangible benefit in past situations is more a FreeBSD problem, than anything else. > As an aside, there was some discussion in the past about the > functionally useless but politically beneficial business of > certification. Has anything changed and is there such a thing? IBM's > backing of a FreeBSD certification would carry a lot of weight in > the corporate and govt worlds. FreeBSD certification is different than certifying hardware to have been tested and verified to have drivers for all its components for FreeBSD so that people can buy off the shelf hardware for FreeBSD use, without fear. I remember a FreeBSD certification discussion, as well as a "FreeBSD Certified Engineer" discussion (an attempt to get in on the RedHat certification frenzy), but nothing really came from that, as all of the hacker types shouted down all of the business types that wanted it. > Do you know what IBM is doing with the *BSDs? The WebConnections product is based on a customer premesis equipment provided by IBM, and services. The equipment being provided is a Whistle InterJet. InterJets run FreeBSD. IBM has also been publically recognized to be bidding FreeBSD into school districts in Taiwan. NTT is bidding InterJet hardware into school prefectures for approximately 28,000 schools in Japan. There are a number of FreeBSD projects scattered around IBM, now that the due dilligence has been passsed on Whistle. Some projects are using Linux, but only because they haven't heard of FreeBSD, or because they are on non-Intel chips, and the alternatives are Linux or NetBSD. At least one project at Almaden has switched to FreeBSD. At least one person responsible for the IRDa standard, and an IBM employee, is working on drivers for some IBM hardware. And then there's a lot of stuff that I can't tell you about, but which I personally find exciting. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 13:25: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gvr.gvr.org (gvr.gvr.org [194.151.74.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F138F1548A for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:25:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from guido@gvr.org) Received: by gvr.gvr.org (Postfix, from userid 657) id 89C62A844; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:24:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:24:54 +0100 From: Guido van Rooij To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Another Linux benchmark (was: Off Topic Humour) Message-ID: <20000120222454.A2641@gvr.gvr.org> References: <20000120203822.A937@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000120124650.0172c100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000120124650.0172c100@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 12:49:10PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 12:49:10PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > > http://www.sexcowairlines.com/linchick.shtml > > > > > > Thanks to Marc for this URL. > > > > > > Enjoy!!! > > Of course, if the chicken WERE really Linux-compatible, it would doubtless > come with a license that required all of its ofspring to be "free range" > chickens. And Richard Stallman would get all of the eggs. ;-) I wonder what a 486 running FreeBSD would do when tested against a penguin ;-) -Guido To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 13:46:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83BC14C9B for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:45:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA09246; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:45:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAbqaaas; Thu Jan 20 14:45:28 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18179; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:45:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001202145.OAA18179@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: IBM To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:45:39 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000118162503.0193bc60@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Jan 18, 2000 04:46:53 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >I can't tell if you are saying this is a Windows crash or a > >BSD crash... if a Windows, all I can say is "Well, Duh!, that's > >the reason for Windows, it's what it does". > > It's under Windows; after all, the modem doesn't work AT ALL > under BSD. But while Windows is unstable, the modem driver > should not be coded so badly as to lock up the machine. So you are complaining about WinModems in general, and using a particular instance as an example. > >If you are complaining about a BSD crash, it is perfectly legal, > >in Findland, Germany, and elsewhere, to take the Windows drivers > >and run them through "Sourcer" from V Communications, Inc. (Frank > >van Gilluwe's company, author of "The Undocumented PC"), and > >then use this documented source code to as interface documentation > >to create a BSD driver. > > While Frank's an excellent programmer, I somehow do not think that > Sourcer will disassemble the MWave code. ;-) It disassembled a network card driver for me, so that I could hack it and reassemble it to fix a bug. It will certainly disassemble and comment OS entry points for x86 code that is used to load the MWave CODEC. If you are talking about the CODEC itself, then I think you will need to contact the company that licenses it, probably in binary form. This is probably _not_ IBM, but instead a third party vendor. [ ... disassembly to document interfaces ... ] > I'm not sure whether it's legal or illegal here. The only case > in which I've heard of reverse engineering being claimed to be > illegal is Microsoft v. Stac, which was settled. It is illegal in the US everywhere shrink-wrap licensing is legally binding. The "Millenium Copyright Act" will incidently make this "everywhere in the US", and will additionally apply it to things like videos and CDs. So be ready to say goodbye to used videos and CDs if it passes. Regardless, it _is_ legal in most of the EU and other non-EU member European countries, it's just not being done. The only thing that _is_ being done, is whining about a lack of drivers BTW, as the Compaq case showed, you can reverse engineer in the US, so long as you clean-room it. The Stac lawsuit came about by virtue of them naming thier compresstion code "DRVSPACE.SYS", taking advantage of the fact that Microsoft engineered the IO.SYS to load it by name (an anti-competitive practice, in itself) to give their code a special hook to allow booting from a compressed disk. > >If that isn't enough, the MWave modem was widely criticized when > >it was released, as any "Winmodem" or DSP codec-based modem so > >far released. Unless you got a prerelease of the hardware, you > >have only yourself to blame. > > There wasn't any other option on that machine. PCMCIA. I know for a fact that modems were an add-on option, unless they were hooked through a sound card, in which case they are a non-option (e.g. don't expect the phone connector to work just because you paid for it). > If I'd known that > IBM would do such a poor job of writing drivers, or about > the OTHER flaws in that unit (which none of the reviewers had > documented), I wouldn't have bought it. The chip vendor wrote the driver. IBM only wrote the loader (if that). I expect that it was really the vendor. Tell me, if you bought a PC with a Diamond video board or an Adaptec SCSI controller during the black days of both those vendors, would you have expected it to work under a non-Windows OS? > Ditto if I'd known > how badly they'd support OS/2 (which is what I wanted to run > on it when I bought it). When did you buy it? I know for a fact that OS/2 is only supported as a legacy system, for eveything but POS systems, and it's unlikely that your laptop is part of a POS system. Let's narrow that down: Winmodems post-date OS/2 as a supported product on anything but POS systems. > I already have a copy of Sourcer, plus Andrew Schulman's Windows > disassembly tools for it. But again, I don't think Sourcer can > disassemble the MWave code. You are looking too deep, then. You don't want to disassemble the MWave code, you only want to disassemble the Windows loader for the MWave code, and write a FreeBSD loader that loads the code. The MWave code that is non-x86 code is going to be the same for all supported OSs, regardless, just like the SCO version and Windows NT version of the Adaptec RAID controller microcode are the same, and only the loader code for it differs. The one concession on this point which I will have to make (and you will have to deal with) is that there is likely a fixed amount of main CPU required in order to run the CODEC, which is why the things are so cheap. You will have to modify the quantum clock and the FreeBSD scheduler to accommodate the existing MWave code needs in this regard. [ ... Winmodem CODEC licensing ... ] > Most often, the vendor of the hardware has already paid the > required royalty. Rockwell pays royalties on the Heatherington > patent for all buyers of its hardware. I'm sure that, in the > case of the ThinkPad, the royalty has been paid before the > computer leaves the shop. Read the fine print; it is likely restricted to a license for Windows as the OS. If it's not, go for it. > After I lost the use of it for a month and a half and had > to purchase a replacement in the interim. I had the same thing happen with a car. Welcome to the new so-called "service economy", where we can all produce no tangible results or goods, and get paid anyway. [ ... IBM service philosophy ... ] > No, I'm afraid that my opinions are based solely on actual > experience, not indoctrination! ;-) Apparently not including your "valiant" Customer Care Representative. > >Well, that's too bad. Unfortunately, if there's no customer > >base for off-brand OSs, then there will never be support for > >those OSs forthcoming. > > Should I sacrifice myself on that altar? Especially when IBM > is saying "Linux, Linux, Linux" and ignores e-mail asking > about BSD support? It appears that IBM is already on the Linux > bandwagon and is not even doing very well at backing THAT up > with action. Linux gets you press. Linux is nothing more than a vehicle for getting press. IBM had opportunity to buy other Whistle-like companies that used Linux, but bought Whistle instead because of the intellectual property rights dilution effects of the GPL. Believe me, there is no love of Linux in the legal departments of any of the apparent Linux boosters out there; if you have a patent at all, you let the marketing department hold Linux up to get their press and to keep them from whining, but you make them hold it at arms reach, much in the same way you would hold a dead skunk. Try an experiment: send the same email from a psuedonym, asking the same questions you are asking about BSD, but substituting Linux instead. I expect you to get as much response as you got for BSD; the position one takes towards ones customers is seldom the position one takes towards the press. > >I'm pretty sure that it's the same reason Adaptec invented their > >HIM layer for microcode: to prevent people from building clone > >hardware that utilized drivers that they had invested engineering > >effort in writing. > > Since the drivers for OSes such as Windows would have GUIs that > proudly display the name of the printer for which they were intended, > it seems unlikely that a company would want to make a printer that's > compatible with someone else's proprietary drivers. However, there > IS an advantage in creating a standard language. HP has had great > success due to PCL. Adaptec drivers are integrated into Windows. If there is a GUI, it is a third-party add-on, and not an integral part of the driver. > > > For the life of me, I don't understand why Lexmark wouldn't > > > want the UNIX market to use their products. > > > >What UNIX market? How many lost sales have they suffered > >because of this? Where's the IDC report to back up the lost > >sales numbers to the marketing people? > > Would they care even if presented with these numbers? Yes. Executives of large companies only talk in terms of the dollars or in terams of "deals". If you can't speak their language, then they can't hear you; they see your lips moving, but that's all they see. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 13:50:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F3F1539F for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:50:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA10554; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:45:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAv7aaEu; Thu Jan 20 14:45:27 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18381; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:49:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001202149.OAA18381@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources contain 152225 trailing whitespaces :-) To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:49:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000119013131.A12781@keltia.freenix.fr> from "Ollivier Robert" at Jan 19, 2000 01:31:31 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > According to Brett Glass: > > That's probably because it was done all at once. What if source were ran > > through a formatter that removed tabs and trailing white spaces during the > > commit process? > > Diff obfuscation is the major problem here and would make "cvs diff" "cvs > rdiff" unusable because you have to sort which deltas are for whitespace > removal and the others. > > You don't want that. If anyone really gave a damn about it, it could be fixed with repository suregery. That is, you go through the CVS raw repository files, and remove ALL trailing whitespace from the offending files. This will ensure that the CVS diff will show only actual code changes. The next analysis in this too-long-running-thread I would like to see is how many of those trailing spaces were original, and how many crept in over the years from someone using EMACS or some other editor in the wrong mode. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 13:56:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3345C15141 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:56:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09124; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:56:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000120145559.01a20140@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:56:33 -0700 To: Guido van Rooij From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Another Linux benchmark (was: Off Topic Humour) Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <20000120222454.A2641@gvr.gvr.org> References: <4.2.2.20000120124650.0172c100@localhost> <20000120203822.A937@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000120124650.0172c100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:24 PM 1/20/2000 , Guido van Rooij wrote: >I wonder what a 486 running FreeBSD would do when tested against >a penguin ;-) Depends on the test conditions. If it were cold enough, it might freeze up. But then, so would a 486 running Linux. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 14:48:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACCF715375 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:48:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09795; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:46:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000120145704.01a24100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:46:38 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: <200001202145.OAA18179@usr01.primenet.com> References: <4.2.2.20000118162503.0193bc60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:45 PM 1/20/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: > > It's under Windows; after all, the modem doesn't work AT ALL > > under BSD. But while Windows is unstable, the modem driver > > should not be coded so badly as to lock up the machine. > >So you are complaining about WinModems in general, and using a >particular instance as an example. This one has a particularly bad driver. Most Winmodems do not crash the machine. So, I do fault IBM for this malfunction. They wrote the driver. > > While Frank's an excellent programmer, I somehow do not think that > > Sourcer will disassemble the MWave code. ;-) > >It disassembled a network card driver for me, so that I could hack >it and reassemble it to fix a bug. > >It will certainly disassemble and comment OS entry points for >x86 code that is used to load the MWave CODEC. If you are talking >about the CODEC itself, then I think you will need to contact >the company that licenses it, probably in binary form. This is >probably _not_ IBM, but instead a third party vendor. The thing is that the MWave is reloaded on the fly, just like the TMS320 in the old IBM Voice Communications Option boards. (IBM's MWave strategy was launched by the people who developed those boards, in cooperation with TI and Dragon Systems. I worked with the VCO a great deal, and so know how it was architected internally. It was VERY complex and you needed to know a lot of detail.) So you won't just need to load code once, but will need to swap code at very specific times. >It is illegal in the US everywhere shrink-wrap licensing is >legally binding. The "Millenium Copyright Act" will incidently >make this "everywhere in the US", and will additionally apply it >to things like videos and CDs. So be ready to say goodbye to >used videos and CDs if it passes. I think you're overly pessimistic about the current situation, but there's surely a drive to make it that way in the future. UCITA is actually the biggest threat, not the Millennium Copyright Act. But the latter is significant too. >The Stac lawsuit came about by virtue of them naming thier >compresstion code "DRVSPACE.SYS", taking advantage of the fact >that Microsoft engineered the IO.SYS to load it by name (an >anti-competitive practice, in itself) to give their code a >special hook to allow booting from a compressed disk. As I understand it, the court was going to rule against them because of a shrinkwrap prohibition against disassembly of the MS-DOS boot code. One of the reasons Microsoft settled is that they didn't want to lose this point -- the ONLY point they would have won at trial -- on appeal. > There wasn't any other option on that machine. >PCMCIA. I know for a fact that modems were an add-on option, >unless they were hooked through a sound card, in which case >they are a non-option (e.g. don't expect the phone connector >to work just because you paid for it). But what about sound? I could add a modem, but the laptop would still be mute. Unfortunately, no PCMCIA sound card works with BSD. And they're almost impossible to find now that virtually all laptops integrate sound. I have an old Media Vision one, but it was equivalent to a Sound Blaster Pro in quality and no one supports it anymore. I hear that Roland did a PCMCIA Sound Canvas card but has now dropped it. > > If I'd known that > > IBM would do such a poor job of writing drivers, or about > > the OTHER flaws in that unit (which none of the reviewers had > > documented), I wouldn't have bought it. > >The chip vendor wrote the driver. IBM only wrote the loader (if >that). I expect that it was really the vendor. MWave was IBM's own thing. At first, some of the design was licensed from TI; IBM then branched off on its own. But IBM wrote the drivers. See http://watson.mbb.sfu.ca/mwave.html. >Tell me, if you bought a PC with a Diamond video board or an >Adaptec SCSI controller during the black days of both those >vendors, would you have expected it to work under a non-Windows >OS? I did both! Diamond supported OS/2. And Adaptec published interfaces for its 1542 boards. I used them with Coherent and QNX. >Let's narrow that down: Winmodems post-date OS/2 as a >supported product on anything but POS systems. Not the MWave. In fact, if you look on IBM's ThinkPad site, they specifically list the model I have as supporting OS/2. You're probably thinking of the USR/Rockwell devices that were actually CALLED "WinModems." >You are looking too deep, then. You don't want to disassemble >the MWave code, you only want to disassemble the Windows loader >for the MWave code, and write a FreeBSD loader that loads the >code. That won't work. The modem code is partly in the MWave and partly on the host, and modules get swapped dynamically (more on this below). I don't even think that all of the modem speeds fit at once; when you move from Bell 303 to Bell 212 to FAX, etc., code is brought in for that modulation scheme. It is said to be possible to load the sound code and keep it there, but it will only emulate a cheap Sound Blaster. >The MWave code that is non-x86 code is going to be the same for >all supported OSs, regardless, just like the SCO version and >Windows NT version of the Adaptec RAID controller microcode are >the same, and only the loader code for it differs. If that is so, then why doesn't IBM simply publish the binaries and instructions for loading them? The answer, it appears, is that it isn't QUITE that simple. There's a "discriminator" program, for example, that answers phone calls and attempts to quickly load the module that handles the type of call that's come in -- voice, data, etc. So, you don't just load them; you must communicate with them through sophisticated APIs. And swap them at the right moments. >The one concession on this point which I will have to make (and >you will have to deal with) is that there is likely a fixed >amount of main CPU required in order to run the CODEC, Not the CODEC but other functions. I believe that when the modem runs V.32/V.42bis, V.32 runs on the MWave and V.42bis on the host. > > Most often, the vendor of the hardware has already paid the > > required royalty. Rockwell pays royalties on the Heatherington > > patent for all buyers of its hardware. I'm sure that, in the > > case of the ThinkPad, the royalty has been paid before the > > computer leaves the shop. > >Read the fine print; it is likely restricted to a license for >Windows as the OS. If it's not, go for it. We'd have to see. As mentioned above, though, it may not be feasible. >> After I lost the use of it for a month and a half and had > > to purchase a replacement in the interim. > >I had the same thing happen with a car. Welcome to the new >so-called "service economy", where we can all produce no >tangible results or goods, and get paid anyway. Sigh. >[ ... IBM service philosophy ... ] > > > No, I'm afraid that my opinions are based solely on actual > > experience, not indoctrination! ;-) > >Apparently not including your "valiant" Customer Care Representative. Well, she TRIED valiantly, but the repair contractor delivered no faster than before. The replacement part they put in this time does not seem to be defective, but it is unclear whether it was luck or skill that caused this. (Pardon me for sounding cynical, but the repair people were REALLY lame.) >Linux gets you press. Linux is nothing more than a vehicle for >getting press. The trouble is that Linux is a direct competitor, which means that for every bit of press it gets BSD, it gets much more for itself. BSD should not rely on Linux for publicity! >IBM had opportunity to buy other Whistle-like companies that >used Linux, but bought Whistle instead because of the intellectual >property rights dilution effects of the GPL. It's good to see that they're aware of this! I noted that their license for ViaVoice was more BSD-like than GPL-like -- another positive sign. >Believe me, there is no love of Linux in the legal departments of >any of the apparent Linux boosters out there; if you have a patent >at all, you let the marketing department hold Linux up to get >their press and to keep them from whining, but you make them hold >it at arms reach, much in the same way you would hold a dead skunk. Interesting. This does not seem to be the case at at least some of them, though. Corel seems to have bought Raymond's rhetoric hook, line, and sinker. (Of course, Corel may be a poster child for why NOT to do Linux. They do embedded stuff and value-added software; they really could benefit from moving to BSD.) >Adaptec drivers are integrated into Windows. If there is a GUI, >it is a third-party add-on, and not an integral part of the driver. No, the driver can (and often does!) contain GUI components. Have you ever developed a Windows printer driver? There are hooks for GUI applets which are part of the driver. In fact, the new "Winprinters" rely on this for ink monitoring, etc. >Executives of large companies only talk in terms of the >dollars or in terams of "deals". If you can't speak their >language, then they can't hear you; they see your lips moving, >but that's all they see. I know. Alas, they seem to think that only Microsoft products are associated with dollars, so it's a tough sell. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 15:49: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23A114E57 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:48:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA21628; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:48:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:48:43 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pico, indentation (was: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources ...) Message-ID: <20000120174843.A4414@futuresouth.com> References: <200001181134.MAA45912@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000118112201.A44535@rtfm.net> <20000118122300.A18846@futuresouth.com> <20000119002857.B57016@hades.hell.gr> <20000119001149.A24456@futuresouth.com> <20000120083115.B2879@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <20000120083115.B2879@hades.hell.gr> X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 08:31:15AM +0200, a little birdie told me that Giorgos Keramidas remarked > > You know what they say. If your indentation level exceeds a well > defined limit (the 80 characters of a terminal line being one such, > uhm, `well defined limit'), you might have to reconsider your design. Indeed. But that 'well defined limit' gets reached much faster (twice as fast, in fact) with 8-char tabs than 4-char. Too much faster. > Without any intention to offend anyone, I'd suggest your friend starts > reading that style(9) manpage. Hey, *I* wrote a lot of the code! Besides, there's a lot of things in style(9) that I don't like, and don't use in my own projects. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 15:56:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF03D152EE for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:56:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.26.202]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FON00FKKRS715@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:55:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00657; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:42:11 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:42:10 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Curious header (Was: Re: funny repair remark) In-reply-to: <20000120150443.769A614FBA@hub.freebsd.org> To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I didn't realize you could mangle a mailer that badly. Do you see this type of thing often? Is M$ a common element? -- Jay On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > >the one subscriber from thru.net has been removed from the lists. >i have sent him mail asking him to look into his email configuration. > >jmb > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 17:45: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 520251555E for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:44:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06724; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:44:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:44:42 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jay Nelson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: <200001202107.OAA16183@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > The MCA stuff is well documented. I have a 386 PS/2 box that runs > using ABIOS and FreeBSD circa 1995, though I haven't cranked it up in > a year or so. Could you get me that code? I'm quite interested. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 17:51: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 1C05F15575; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:51:07 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: noslenj@swbell.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Jay Nelson on Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:42:10 -0600 (CST)) Subject: Re: Curious header (Was: Re: funny repair remark) Message-Id: <20000121015107.1C05F15575@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:51:07 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org no i really dont see this too often. MS seems to be teh cause more often than other systems. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 18: 1:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0EBE15147 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:00:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.44.84]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FON007PLXKXIC@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:00:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00561; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:52:21 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:52:21 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: IBM (Was: Re: funny repair remark) In-reply-to: <200001202107.OAA16183@usr01.primenet.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> >IBM has also supported the idea of "FreeBSD certification" of >> >IBM systems; Doug Ambrisko spent some time validating a >> >machine, only to have the Advocacy group _not_ show up with a >> >FreeBSD certification logo. >> >> Interesting. I always wondered what FreeBSD would be like on an SP. > >Any real advocate, I think, has wondered the same thing. FreeBSD seems more suited to the environment than AIX. Curiously, the SP wouldn't work without the tools that come out of the box with FreeBSD. Ah, well -- the infinite mystery of IBM. >> Are they willing to open up information for MCA, SSA and other useful >> devices? > >The MCA stuff is well documented. I have a 386 PS/2 box that That's curious. With all the 3xx and 5xx machnes still running AIX 3.2.5, I'm surprised the NetBSD folks haven't ported. >Along with a lot of other stuff. You have me at a disadvantage >with "SAA"; I assume you mean AS/400. No -- I mean SSA -- the serial disk architecture. IBM is claiming 160MB across the buss and from what little I've seen, seems like it will do a reasonable percentage of that in real production. With a rack full of 7133s (64 18Gb drives) I think there would be a number of places interested. The controllers will do Raid 0-5 reasonably efficiently and there are two loops on the controller for mirroring. It's nice gear. All of the critical, high availability configurations I do are based on SSA disk architecture. I'd be interested in your opinion when you see it. >The AS/400 is unsuited to running C. It uses a 64 bit pointer, >8 bits of which are a check-value. This means that running C >code that does pointer arithmatic or array indexing would be >nearly impossible with a free compiler. I was under the impression that the xlc compilers were ANSI compliant. Given what you are telling me, how in hell are they going to "enable" Linux on that platform? [snip] >I remember a FreeBSD certification discussion, as well as a >"FreeBSD Certified Engineer" discussion (an attempt to get in >on the RedHat certification frenzy), but nothing really came >from that, as all of the hacker types shouted down all of the >business types that wanted it. Out here in the ditches, the certification cuts a lot of weight with the management droids. They generally have no basis on which to judge new hires because they know nothing about Unix or operating systems in general. I've seen good, experienced mainframe people fall back on the "certification" because they didn't know Unix and didn't know how to judge an applicant. The hacker types would probably have more opportunity to work with more interesting and less limited systems if there was such a thing as a "FreeBSD Certified Engineer". >> Do you know what IBM is doing with the *BSDs? > >The WebConnections product is based on a customer premesis >equipment provided by IBM, and services. The equipment being >provided is a Whistle InterJet. InterJets run FreeBSD. > >IBM has also been publically recognized to be bidding FreeBSD >into school districts in Taiwan. That, I didn't know. Is that information available on any accessable site? >NTT is bidding InterJet hardware into school prefectures for >approximately 28,000 schools in Japan. Where are the announcements? I haven't seen any of this on ILINK. (They must be hiring too many teenagers -- most of the "official" IBM info has been slow or non-existent lately.) >There are a number of FreeBSD projects scattered around IBM, >now that the due dilligence has been passsed on Whistle. Some >projects are using Linux, but only because they haven't heard >of FreeBSD, or because they are on non-Intel chips, and the >alternatives are Linux or NetBSD. Do you know of anything going on in Austin that you can tell me about? >At least one project at Almaden has switched to FreeBSD. Ahh... _That's_ interesting. Can you reveal which one? >At least one person responsible for the IRDa standard, and an >IBM employee, is working on drivers for some IBM hardware. Terry, you're getting short on information;) Is this... >And then there's a lot of stuff that I can't tell you about, >but which I personally find exciting. ... Yep -- the good ole IBM line;) Thanks for the insight. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 18:56:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC8A153CC for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:56:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07612; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:55:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:55:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: <200001202107.OAA16183@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > The MCA stuff is documented at: > > http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/ I wasn't able to find anything. Am I missing something or is their search engine faulty? -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 21: 9:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F0F14E9F; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:09:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with ESMTP id e0L4iBW05168; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:44:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:44:11 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Curious header (Was: Re: funny repair remark) In-Reply-To: <20000121015107.1C05F15575@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > no i really dont see this too often. MS seems to be teh cause more > often than other systems. I just love this line from the demoroniser(1) manpage. A little detective work revealed that, as is usually the case when you encounter something shoddy in the vicinity of a computer, Microsoft incompetence and gratuitous in- compatibility were to blame. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 21:40:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 434651547D for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:40:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com ([203.197.137.151]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06724; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:06:21 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00746; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:44:11 +0530 (IST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:44:11 +0530 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Another Linux benchmark (was: Off Topic Humour) Message-ID: <20000121104411.I481@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <20000120203822.A937@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000120124650.0172c100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000120124650.0172c100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 12:49:10PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 20 January 2000 at 12:49:10 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:08 AM 1/20/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> Howdy, >>> >>> Check out the "Linux Vs. Chicken Independent Benchmarking Study". I know >>> the URL looks bad, but there's nothing graphic there: >>> >>> http://www.sexcowairlines.com/linchick.shtml >>> >>> Thanks to Marc for this URL. >>> >>> Enjoy!!! > > Of course, if the chicken WERE really Linux-compatible, it would doubtless > come with a license that required all of its ofspring to be "free range" > chickens. And Richard Stallman would get all of the eggs. ;-) Would you prefer to give him only the rotten ones? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 20 21:50:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B790D1566D for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:50:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15225; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:49:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000120224643.0193d570@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:49:53 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Another Linux benchmark (was: Off Topic Humour) Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <20000121104411.I481@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000120124650.0172c100@localhost> <20000120203822.A937@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000120124650.0172c100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:14 PM 1/20/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > > Of course, if the chicken WERE really Linux-compatible, it would doubtless > > come with a license that required all of its ofspring to be "free range" > > chickens. And Richard Stallman would get all of the eggs. ;-) > >Would you prefer to give him only the rotten ones? Maybe. But it'd be more fun to see a Tasmanian Devil named Chuck chase him away and eat the chicken. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 3:57:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98CBE14D63 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 03:57:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com ([203.197.137.158]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07185 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:27:36 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA00777 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:27:31 +0530 (IST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:27:31 +0530 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: New speed record? Message-ID: <20000121172731.B517@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm getting my mail under somewhat adverse conditions here in India. The Internet connections to the outside world are somewhat overloaded during the daytime. I'm trying to bring compressed mail files across with fup. Here some results: 23360 bytes received in 1063.64 seconds (0.02 KB/s) 2920 bytes received in 356.93 seconds (0.01 KB/s) 24820 bytes received in 1266.68 seconds (0.02 KB/s) All this has me wondering why. It seems that ftp gets particularly bad performance when transferring full frames (1460 bytes payload). While this transfer is (not) progressing, I can access the system at the other end interactively. It seems that if I could persuade ftpd to send smaller frames, I might get better throughput. Does anybody have opinions? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 4:18:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DCE515464 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:18:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA29457; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:18:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: fortune(1) candidate From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Jan 2000 13:18:29 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "The scanf() function is a large and complex beast that often does something almost but not quite entirely unlike what you desired." -- Chris Torek DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 5: 2:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trltech.demon.co.uk (trltech.demon.co.uk [194.222.7.191]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A3814F07 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:02:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from ns.sw.wan (ns.sw.wan [192.9.200.19]) by trltech.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA05726; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:02:13 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from trltech.co.uk (localhost.sw.wan [127.0.0.1]) by ns.sw.wan (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00911; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:01:30 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Message-ID: <388858AA.5980479E@trltech.co.uk> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:01:30 +0000 From: Richard Smith Organization: http://www.trltech.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fortune(1) candidate References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > "The scanf() function is a large and complex beast that often does > something almost but not quite entirely unlike what you desired." > > -- Chris Torek ... paraphrasing Douglas Adams, but I expect you knew that :-) or vice versa :-/ Richard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 5:42:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.x-treme.gr (mx2.x-treme.gr [212.120.192.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C040C14C33 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:42:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat27.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.219]) by mx2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id PAA04935; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:41:45 +0200 Received: (from charon@localhost) by localhost.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA02269; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 03:43:26 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 03:43:26 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pico, indentation (was: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources ...) Message-ID: <20000121034326.A1638@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <200001181134.MAA45912@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000118112201.A44535@rtfm.net> <20000118122300.A18846@futuresouth.com> <20000119002857.B57016@hades.hell.gr> <20000119001149.A24456@futuresouth.com> <20000120083115.B2879@hades.hell.gr> <20000120174843.A4414@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <20000120174843.A4414@futuresouth.com> X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E X-Phone-Number: +30-94-6203692, +30-93-2886457 X-Address: Theodorou Kirinaiou 61, 26334 Patra, Greece Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 05:48:43PM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 08:31:15AM +0200, a little birdie told me > that Giorgos Keramidas remarked > > > > You know what they say. If your indentation level exceeds a well > > defined limit (the 80 characters of a terminal line being one such, > > uhm, `well defined limit'), you might have to reconsider your design. > > Indeed. > But that 'well defined limit' gets reached much faster (twice as fast, in > fact) with 8-char tabs than 4-char. Too much faster. > > > > Without any intention to offend anyone, I'd suggest your friend starts > > reading that style(9) manpage. > > Hey, *I* wrote a lot of the code! > Besides, there's a lot of things in style(9) that I don't like, and don't > use in my own projects. Oops! There is goes... I can almost see the fireball travelling through the night to reach my head :/ As I said, no offence intended for anyone. For one thing is that I will defend your right to keep a consistent style, whatever that is. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > "Don't let your schooling interfere with your education." [Mark Twain] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 7:12:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D128514C0C for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:12:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA29944; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:12:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: New speed record? References: <20000121172731.B517@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Jan 2000 16:12:01 +0100 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:27:31 +0530" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > All this has me wondering why. It seems that ftp gets particularly > bad performance when transferring full frames (1460 bytes payload). > While this transfer is (not) progressing, I can access the system at > the other end interactively. It seems that if I could persuade ftpd > to send smaller frames, I might get better throughput. Does anybody > have opinions? Maybe some routers are configured to give small packets priority over large ones? Lower the MTU on your interface, see if it helps. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 8:19:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [209.191.58.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184EC151FF for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:19:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@bg-tc-ppp840.monmouth.com) Received: from bg-tc-ppp840.monmouth.com (root@bg-tc-ppp840.monmouth.com [209.191.53.216]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04916 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:19:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by bg-tc-ppp840.monmouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA09255 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:21:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <200001211621.LAA09255@bg-tc-ppp840.monmouth.com> Subject: Linux-Expo next month To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:21:23 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 732-935-0629 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone going to be at Linux Expo in NY. I'm trying to figure what day to make it to the show -- and I'm wondering if there will be a FreeBSD BOF somewhere somehow? Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bpechter@monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org|pechter@pechter.bsdonline.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 8:37: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D021517D for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:36:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA30257; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:36:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Richard Smith Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fortune(1) candidate References: <388858AA.5980479E@trltech.co.uk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Jan 2000 17:36:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: Richard Smith's message of "Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:01:30 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Richard Smith writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > "The scanf() function is a large and complex beast that often does > > something almost but not quite entirely unlike what you desired." > ... paraphrasing Douglas Adams, but I expect you knew that :-) Yes. May I offer you a cup of tea? :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 9: 7:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC7815433 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:07:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (m14.chn.vsnl.net.in [202.54.43.197] (may be forged)) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA09847; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:37:31 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA01382; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:37:19 +0530 (IST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:37:19 +0530 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: New speed record? Message-ID: <20000121223719.I918@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <20000121172731.B517@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 04:12:01PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 21 January 2000 at 16:12:01 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> All this has me wondering why. It seems that ftp gets particularly >> bad performance when transferring full frames (1460 bytes payload). >> While this transfer is (not) progressing, I can access the system at >> the other end interactively. It seems that if I could persuade ftpd >> to send smaller frames, I might get better throughput. Does anybody >> have opinions? > > Maybe some routers are configured to give small packets priority over > large ones? I'd guess that this isn't an issue of fragmentation. It *may* be an issue of TOS, but this appears not to be implemented. > Lower the MTU on your interface, see if it helps. No, the PPP interface reassembles the packets. What I'm getting through is 1460 byte packets, which seem to be the default I get from ftpd; the MTU of my PPP interface would only be an issue if that link were the bottleneck. Even a 300 bps link would be adequate in this case :-( Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 9:18:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A67D1551E for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:18:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (m14.chn.vsnl.net.in [202.54.43.197] (may be forged)) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA09858; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:48:01 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA01423; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:47:40 +0530 (IST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:47:39 +0530 From: Greg Lehey To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pico, indentation (was: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources ...) Message-ID: <20000121224739.J918@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <200001181134.MAA45912@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000118112201.A44535@rtfm.net> <20000118122300.A18846@futuresouth.com> <20000119002857.B57016@hades.hell.gr> <20000119001149.A24456@futuresouth.com> <20000120083115.B2879@hades.hell.gr> <20000120174843.A4414@futuresouth.com> <20000121034326.A1638@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000121034326.A1638@hades.hell.gr>; from charon@hades.hell.gr on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 03:43:26AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmm. Somehow I missed the beginning of this. On Friday, 21 January 2000 at 3:43:26 +0200, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 05:48:43PM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 08:31:15AM +0200, a little birdie told me >> that Giorgos Keramidas remarked >>> >>> You know what they say. If your indentation level exceeds a well >>> defined limit (the 80 characters of a terminal line being one such, >>> uhm, `well defined limit'), you might have to reconsider your design. >> >> Indeed. But that 'well defined limit' gets reached much faster >> (twice as fast, in fact) with 8-char tabs than 4-char. Too much >> faster. I think both these statements miss the obvious point: clarity of style depends on the medium available. style(9) still uses an IBM 029 card punch with an 8 step tab on the program drum. This makes it difficult to express yourself clearly. >>> Without any intention to offend anyone, I'd suggest your friend starts >>> reading that style(9) manpage. >> >> Hey, *I* wrote a lot of the code! Besides, there's a lot of things >> in style(9) that I don't like, and don't use in my own projects. Hear, hear. I don't fight style(9), because it makes for a uniform style in the project, and that makes it easier for people to find their way around. But I do regret that we're still tied to such tiny views of our code. It's been nearly 20 years since I built myself a terminal (remember them? :-) which displayed 64 lines of 128 characters, so I could overview my assembler code. In C, with indentation, the width is even more important, yet style(9) limits us to an absolute maximum of 9 nesting levels, and effectively bars comments to the right of code. Both of these restrictions appear counterproductive to me. They can result in gratuitous creation of subfunctions called only once in order to satisfy the layout requirements. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 9:42:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E476A15526 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:42:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Bi4j-0009iT-00; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:42:21 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28857; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:42:20 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:42:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Greg Lehey Cc: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr, "Matthew D. Fuller" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pico, indentation (was: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources ...) In-Reply-To: <20000121224739.J918@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >I don't fight style(9), because it makes for a uniform style in the >project, and that makes it easier for people to find their way around. >But I do regret that we're still tied to such tiny views of our code. I agree. I'm not an experienced programmer, nor do i remember punched card readers (actually, i do, i just never used them. I also remember when harddrive heads we the size of dimes. (: But it seems to me that there are many ways to format C code that makes it readable, maintainable, and reasonably consistent. >overview my assembler code. In C, with indentation, the width is even >more important, yet style(9) limits us to an absolute maximum of 9 >nesting levels, and effectively bars comments to the right of code. >Both of these restrictions appear counterproductive to me. They can >result in gratuitous creation of subfunctions called only once in >order to satisfy the layout requirements. I've seen it said that the only comments should be at the beginning of the function, and that if it requires more docs, then it should be broken up. I disagree. SOmetimes there may be a few lines of code that do something out of the ordinary that could be explained in a line or two of comments, but that doesn't necessitate a new function just for those lines. -=> jm <=- Actual penalty by referee in an American Football game: "Unsportsmanlike conduct: giving him the business! Fifteen yard penalty, automatic first down!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 10: 3:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20B8154D6 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:03:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21356; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:03:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000121110238.01a6f4d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:03:07 -0700 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Richard Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: fortune(1) candidate Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <388858AA.5980479E@trltech.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:36 AM 1/21/2000 , Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > ... paraphrasing Douglas Adams, but I expect you knew that :-) > >Yes. May I offer you a cup of tea? :) "Brain the size of a planet...." -BG To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 10:14:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB91E14FB7 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:14:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21517; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:14:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000121110945.01a69c30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:14:08 -0700 To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux-Expo next month In-Reply-To: <200001211621.LAA09255@bg-tc-ppp840.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org February 1st will be sessions only; the 2nd and 3rd will be the hot days for the exhibits. If you plan to stay in NYC, I have some leads on inexpensive hotel rooms. --Brett P.S. -- Like your sig. I wonder how much overlap there is between the FreeBSD and filk communities.... At 09:21 AM 1/21/2000 , Bill Pechter wrote: >Anyone going to be at Linux Expo in NY. I'm trying to figure what day >to make it to the show -- and I'm wondering if there will be a FreeBSD >BOF somewhere somehow? > >Bill >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >bpechter@monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org|pechter@pechter.bsdonline.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 10:47:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE5014CFA for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:47:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Bj5M-000KUO-00; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:47:04 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29804; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:47:04 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:47:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-Reply-To: <200001202107.OAA16183@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >The AS/400 is unsuited to running C. It uses a 64 bit pointer, >8 bits of which are a check-value. This means that running C >code that does pointer arithmatic or array indexing would be >nearly impossible with a free compiler. So do AS/400 programmers use proprietary C compilers or do they write in another language? >FreeBSD will benefit, if FreeBSD grabs the opportunities it is >presented; just as FreeBSD has been able to benefit from other >aspects of the Linux phenomenon. The lack of tangible benefit >in past situations is more a FreeBSD problem, than anything else. Could you explain what you mean by the last sentence? What benefits, and to whom? >And then there's a lot of stuff that I can't tell you about, >but which I personally find exciting. Top secret stuff, eh? (: -=> jm <=- Actual penalty by referee in an American Football game: "Unsportsmanlike conduct: giving him the business! Fifteen yard penalty, automatic first down!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 10:50: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB0E8154B6 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:49:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Bj88-000KYx-00; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:49:56 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29850; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:49:56 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:49:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: IBM In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000120145704.01a24100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: >At 02:45 PM 1/20/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >>It is illegal in the US everywhere shrink-wrap licensing is >>legally binding. The "Millenium Copyright Act" will incidently >>make this "everywhere in the US", and will additionally apply it >>to things like videos and CDs. So be ready to say goodbye to >>used videos and CDs if it passes. > >I think you're overly pessimistic about the current situation, >but there's surely a drive to make it that way in the future. >UCITA is actually the biggest threat, not the Millennium >Copyright Act. But the latter is significant too. Is this really in the works? That means once a piece of media is purchased, only the owner may use it, and it is non-transferrable? >>so-called "service economy", where we can all produce no >>tangible results or goods, and get paid anyway. How does a service economy get away with not providing service? -=> jm <=- Actual penalty by referee in an American Football game: "Unsportsmanlike conduct: giving him the business! Fifteen yard penalty, automatic first down!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 12:25:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B3F15676 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:25:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23177; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:24:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000121131307.01a32380@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:23:59 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: UCITA (Important) Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000120145704.01a24100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:49 AM 1/21/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >Is this really in the works? That means once a piece of media is >purchased, only the owner may use it, and it is non-transferrable? That and MUCH worse. See the following links: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/01/12/217259&mode=nocomment http://www.4cite.org/ucta101.html http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/99/12/06/991206opfoster.xml http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/00/01/10/000110opfoster.xml http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/foster/991018ef.htm If you're as horrified as I am by the potential effects of UCITA, you may want to support or join an organization, formed by librarians, called 4cite (http://www.4cite.org/). Its member list, from its Web site, includes: American Association of Law Libraries American Library Association Art Libraries Society of North America Association of Research Libraries Caterpillar Inc. Commonwealth of Virginia State Networking Users Advisory Board Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility Digital Future Coalition Electronic Frontier Foundation Infoworld International Communications Association John Hancock Mutual Life Insurance Company Law Office of Cem Kaner McLane Company Inc. National Consumer Law Center National Humanities Alliance Principal Financial Group Prudential Insurance Company of America Reynolds Metals Corporation Society for Information Management Special Libraries Association Virginia Association of Law Libraries See their Web site for more details. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 13: 8: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 048F415493 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:07:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12BlHX-000NjQ-00; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:07:47 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA31865; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:07:47 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:07:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000121131307.01a32380@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can i actually make a difference? I have no money to contribute. It seems the big lobbyists (software companies) will have the eweight to win this battle. I just realized what else this might mean... No used college textbooks No used music CDs No used video games Paranoia that being connected to the net could result in my machine being shut down by some hacker with 'disable' codes. The list goes on... On the bright side, BSD open source licensing may take a stronger hold. But that is hardly worth the negative effects. -=> jm <=- Actual penalty by referee in an American Football game: "Unsportsmanlike conduct: giving him the business! Fifteen yard penalty, automatic first down!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 13:16:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83CC15690 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:16:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23777; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:15:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:15:30 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000121131307.01a32380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:07 PM 1/21/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >Can i actually make a difference? I have no money to contribute. One of the best things you can do is WRITE ABOUT IT. Online, and also to your legislator and regional newspaper. There should at least be a Daemon News article about this. > It >seems the big lobbyists (software companies) will have the eweight to >win this battle. They won it in the CCUSL, which drafted the law. In fact, the head of the committee which drafted the law was a lawyer who had recently worked for Microsoft. Guess whose interests HE had in mind! >I just realized what else this might mean... > >No used college textbooks >No used music CDs >No used video games >Paranoia that being connected to the net could result in my machine >being shut down by some hacker with 'disable' codes. Yes. And that last isn't just paranoia. It's already possible to do it with some academic releases of Microsoft products, I'm told. >The list goes on... >On the bright side, BSD open source licensing may take a stronger >hold. It'd be nice. Of course, we need to warn about the problems of the GPL, too, or that radical faction may get even more mileage from this. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 13:34:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D646D154B5 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:34:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Blgz-000F3M-00; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:34:05 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA32252; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:34:04 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:34:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: >One of the best things you can do is WRITE ABOUT IT. Online, and >also to your legislator and regional newspaper. There should >at least be a Daemon News article about this. >>Paranoia that being connected to the net could result in my machine >>being shut down by some hacker with 'disable' codes. > >Yes. And that last isn't just paranoia. It's already possible to do >it with some academic releases of Microsoft products, I'm told. Academic meaning for students? Like office for students? I am even happier i ordered applixware even though i really can't afford $99 right now, but i need it for school. Is there any way that this law has positives, such as reducing piracy, or seeing to it that authors can compensation for their work? For example, supposed i write a textbook and only 1,000 copies sell because now they an be re-sold as used. Doesn't this hurt my profits? Also, when i can buy a CD, burn a copy, and sell it at the used CD store, where they may be done an indefinite number of times, doesn't that only hurt the artist, who makes a living only off that first copy? I just don't see how authors and musicians and even programmers stay alive.... -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 13:42:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34FF1553D for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:42:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24170; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:41:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000121143613.01a51ef0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:41:28 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:34 PM 1/21/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >Academic meaning for students? Meaning "site licensed to universities." Dave Farber, for example, reports that when he moved his Windows files from one laptop to another, Windows contacted Microsoft's Web site for validation across the Net. It discovered that the hardware was different (probably via a BIOS checksum or something similar) and DISABLED ITSELF. >Is there any way that this law has positives, such as reducing piracy, >or seeing to it that authors can compensation for their work? Very little in it is positive. Not enough to salvage. >For example, supposed i write a textbook and only 1,000 copies sell >because now they an be re-sold as used. Doesn't this hurt my >profits? The doctrine of first sale says that people can transfer their copies of a work. Your best bet is to come out with a new edition! >Also, when i can buy a CD, burn a copy, and sell it at the >used CD store, where they may be done an indefinite number of times, >doesn't that only hurt the artist, who makes a living only off that >first copy? That's already illegal. > I just don't see how authors and musicians and even >programmers stay alive.... They do. I know; I'm all three! I manage to do reasonably well -- though I'm surely not rich. Despite Richard Stallman's efforts to abolish artists' rights and run programmers out of business. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 13:54:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 279E615096 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:54:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@orion.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09067; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:50:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:50:41 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) Message-ID: <20000121135041.A4833@orion.ac.hmc.edu> References: <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 09:34:03PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 09:34:03PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Is there any way that this law has positives, such as reducing piracy, > or seeing to it that authors can compensation for their work? I seriously doubt any will ever have real impact on piracy unless it were something like shooting prirates. That wouldn't be on the books for long since _everyone_ has certaintly violated the _letter_ of copyright law at sometime or another. > For example, supposed i write a textbook and only 1,000 copies sell > because now they an be re-sold as used. Doesn't this hurt my > profits? Also, when i can buy a CD, burn a copy, and sell it at the > used CD store, where they may be done an indefinite number of times, > doesn't that only hurt the artist, who makes a living only off that > first copy? I just don't see how authors and musicians and even > programmers stay alive.... In the case of the textbook, that's the way it's always been, you just don't write books with audiences that small unless you don't want the profit or the book is so important you can charge what it cost you to write. As for the CD, that's already illegal. It's pretty much been illegal as long as there has been copyright. After all, that's what copyright is about. We don't need this idiotic legislation here. It certaintly won't help and anyone who isn't a major shareholder at M$ should be able to see just how bad it will hurt. -- Brooks -- "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 16: 6:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D72159BA for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:06:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.40.47]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOP00MCPMP00E@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:00:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01015; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:57:19 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:57:18 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-reply-to: To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> The MCA stuff is documented at: >> >> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/ > >I wasn't able to find anything. Am I missing something or is their search >engine faulty? I couldn't find it either. Even looked through some old redbook CDs. A publication number would be helpful. Typically, though, this kind of information isn't what is published in Redbooks. Maybe I was mislead by titles. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 16:57:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6D114CE9 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:57:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@azazel.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA23461; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:55:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:55:38 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) Message-ID: <20000121165538.A22405@azazel.zer0.org> References: <4.2.2.20000121131307.01a32380@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 02:15:30PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 02:15:30PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:07 PM 1/21/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > >Can i actually make a difference? I have no money to contribute. > > One of the best things you can do is WRITE ABOUT IT. Online, and > also to your legislator and regional newspaper. There should > at least be a Daemon News article about this. Are you offering to write one? Email article@daemonnews.org and we will discuss it with you. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 17: 3:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419261577E for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:01:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA20544; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:00:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAa9aWeO; Fri Jan 21 18:00:51 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA24201; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:01:09 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001220101.SAA24201@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: IBM (Was: Re: funny repair remark) To: noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:01:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jay Nelson" at Jan 20, 2000 07:52:21 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Along with a lot of other stuff. You have me at a disadvantage > >with "SAA"; I assume you mean AS/400. > > No -- I mean SSA -- the serial disk architecture. IBM is claiming > 160MB across the buss and from what little I've seen, seems like it > will do a reasonable percentage of that in real production. With a > rack full of 7133s (64 18Gb drives) I think there would be a number of > places interested. The controllers will do Raid 0-5 reasonably > efficiently and there are two loops on the controller for mirroring. > > It's nice gear. All of the critical, high availability > configurations I do are based on SSA disk architecture. I'd be > interested in your opinion when you see it. I'll go look. If it's not available for PC class hardware, I will probably never see it, unless the mail me somewhere. > >The AS/400 is unsuited to running C. It uses a 64 bit pointer, > >8 bits of which are a check-value. This means that running C > >code that does pointer arithmatic or array indexing would be > >nearly impossible with a free compiler. > > I was under the impression that the xlc compilers were ANSI compliant. > Given what you are telling me, how in hell are they going to "enable" > Linux on that platform? I expect they're compiling with xlc, not gcc. The point is, you can never have a fully self-hosted free system, without a free tool chain. Right now, both FreeBSD (especially) and Linux have hosted cross-compilation issues, having to do with using tools generated for the target in building the target (instead of using cross-tools targeted at the target but built for the host for building the target). This was a matter of much discussion a while back. [ ... ] > The hacker types would probably have more opportunity to work with > more interesting and less limited systems if there was such a thing as > a "FreeBSD Certified Engineer". I have to say that if you are in the Bay Area and know FreeBSD, then you have a job. We're hiring, if anyone is interested (hint, hint). > >IBM has also been publically recognized to be bidding FreeBSD > >into school districts in Taiwan. > > That, I didn't know. Is that information available on any accessable > site? It was press released. I can dig for it, but it's in the -advocacy archives, somewhere. > >NTT is bidding InterJet hardware into school prefectures for > >approximately 28,000 schools in Japan. > > Where are the announcements? I haven't seen any of this on ILINK. > (They must be hiring too many teenagers -- most of the "official" IBM > info has been slow or non-existent lately.) This is a pre-IBM Whistle deal, which IBM is keeping alive (they have good sense... 8-)). Whistle announced it with NTT last June or so; I don't have a copy of the release at hand, but I'm sure they announced it being printed in CRSN or something like that. > >There are a number of FreeBSD projects scattered around IBM, > >now that the due dilligence has been passsed on Whistle. Some > >projects are using Linux, but only because they haven't heard > >of FreeBSD, or because they are on non-Intel chips, and the > >alternatives are Linux or NetBSD. > > Do you know of anything going on in Austin that you can tell me about? No. We haven't really hooked into the IBM grapevine nearly anywhere as far as we wanted to have done by this time. 8-). > >At least one project at Almaden has switched to FreeBSD. > > Ahh... _That's_ interesting. Can you reveal which one? A secret one. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 17:38:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A901614F7D for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:38:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA29727; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:38:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAw0aOc6; Fri Jan 21 18:37:59 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA25380; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:38:12 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001220138.SAA25380@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Pico, indentation (was: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources ...) To: grog@lemis.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:38:12 +0000 (GMT) Cc: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr, fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000121224739.J918@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Jan 21, 2000 10:47:39 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I think both these statements miss the obvious point: clarity of style > depends on the medium available. style(9) still uses an IBM 029 card > punch with an 8 step tab on the program drum. This makes it difficult > to express yourself clearly. Works great on my old HeathKit terminal with hard wired, unprogrammable 8 character tab stops. If you are concerned about space, use real tabs. If you are concerned about format, then make your editor only put in real tabs on 8 column boundaries, and have the tab key output however many spaces you want it to, converting sequences of 8 spaces preceeding an 8 column modular boundary to tabs, retroactively. BTW, "vi" can do this trivially by choosing the right settings, though if you believed it were: set tabstop=2 set hardtabs=8 set shiftwidth=2 then out would be wrong; instead you have to be tricky, e.g.: set shiftwidth=2 set tabstop=8 And then mapping the tab key to T (exercise left to the student... hint: it involves at least one shell escape... ;-)). Realize that the tab key on computer terminals was invented for columnar sensitive languages, like FORTRAN and COBOL and some of the original varieties of BASIC, etc.. The typewriter usage of the tab key only crept in later, when word processing was invented. If you want to word process, then do it. If you want to write code, do that. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 18: 0:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D254A14CDF for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:00:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA09006; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:00:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAB3a4Ir; Fri Jan 21 19:00:15 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA26106; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:00:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001220200.TAA26106@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: funny repair remark To: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 02:00:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson), chat@freebsd.org (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: from "Jonathon McKitrick" at Jan 21, 2000 06:47:04 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >The AS/400 is unsuited to running C. It uses a 64 bit pointer, > >8 bits of which are a check-value. This means that running C > >code that does pointer arithmatic or array indexing would be > >nearly impossible with a free compiler. > > So do AS/400 programmers use proprietary C compilers or do they write > in another language? Proprietary C compilers. > >FreeBSD will benefit, if FreeBSD grabs the opportunities it is > >presented; just as FreeBSD has been able to benefit from other > >aspects of the Linux phenomenon. The lack of tangible benefit > >in past situations is more a FreeBSD problem, than anything else. > > Could you explain what you mean by the last sentence? What benefits, > and to whom? FreeBSD could have had a more visible presence, with banners, at "Windows Refund Day", for example. A more coordinated effort and showing of unity by the community could have been a large press coup that got FreeBSD dragged along with the Linux crowd. As to for whom, for FreeBSD and the FreeBSD community, of course. > >And then there's a lot of stuff that I can't tell you about, > >but which I personally find exciting. > > Top secret stuff, eh? > (: Stuff I get to see or hear about only if I keep my mouth shut about what it is. I don't want to lose washroom rights. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 18: 3:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB42415562 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:03:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA12883; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:58:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAFRaqjz; Fri Jan 21 18:58:56 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA26199; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:03:28 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001220203.TAA26199@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: IBM To: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 02:03:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: from "Jonathon McKitrick" at Jan 21, 2000 06:49:56 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >>It is illegal in the US everywhere shrink-wrap licensing is > >>legally binding. The "Millenium Copyright Act" will incidently > >>make this "everywhere in the US", and will additionally apply it > >>to things like videos and CDs. So be ready to say goodbye to > >>used videos and CDs if it passes. > > > >I think you're overly pessimistic about the current situation, > >but there's surely a drive to make it that way in the future. > >UCITA is actually the biggest threat, not the Millennium > >Copyright Act. But the latter is significant too. > > Is this really in the works? That means once a piece of media is > purchased, only the owner may use it, and it is non-transferrable? Yes. You no longer buy CDs and video tapes, you only buy licenses. The company selling you the license kindly gives you the media for free. > >>so-called "service economy", where we can all produce no > >>tangible results or goods, and get paid anyway. > > How does a service economy get away with not providing service? Beats me. All of the economists are crazy about it, though, and have been since way back when I was in college. I never understood how everyone could work at McDonalds without there being someone, somewhere, raising cows and draining money out of the service economy into the cow-raising economy. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 19:57: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E1F15683 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:56:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from wghicks.mindspring.com (user-33qtgp5.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.195.37]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA21987 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:12:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from wghicks.mindspring.com (IDENT:jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA03896 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:14:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@wghicks.mindspring.com) Message-Id: <200001220314.TAA03896@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.0 09/18/1999 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jan 2000 02:00:19 GMT." <200001220200.TAA26106@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:14:43 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >The AS/400 is unsuited to running C. It uses a 64 bit pointer, > > >8 bits of which are a check-value. This means that running C > > >code that does pointer arithmatic or array indexing would be > > >nearly impossible with a free compiler. Well, sorta :-) The machine that uses those pointers is a virtual machine, down deep under the covers you'll find that the processors are now POWER architecture, although I don't think the first AS400s were. Now, none of the "real computer in there" is directly accessible by customers and not even known by a lot of people outside IBM Rochester. The AS400 was derived of the System 38, a product of IBM's Advanced Systems Group. I remember in the early eighties getting my hands on an S/38 architecture document that really surprised me; It was quite a conventional looking 32-bit processor buried in there with lots of general purpose registers (32) and a really nifty looking virtual memory management arrangement. I also remember a slight sense of deja-Vu some years later studying Intel's new 386 and wondering about that IBM copyright on top of the chip ;-) > > > > So do AS/400 programmers use proprietary C compilers or do they write > > in another language? > > Proprietary C compilers. For the p-machine too, not the native one :-( C/400 came out after I swore off working on AS400s. During the period I worked on the pre-release AS400 (Silverlake was the code name) we used Pascal, the p-machine's assembly language PL/MI [machine interface] and (UGH!) RPG/400. PL/MI is also what they use for the compiler IR. I know some business programmer types who *really* know how to do database apps on these systems. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 20:32:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D49F157D3 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:32:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.26.7]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOP00FJ0Z9VZL@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:32:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01543; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:31:30 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:31:30 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: funny repair remark In-reply-to: <200001220314.TAA03896@mindspring.com> To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: freebsd-chat Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: >> > >The AS/400 is unsuited to running C. It uses a 64 bit pointer, >> > >8 bits of which are a check-value. This means that running C >> > >code that does pointer arithmatic or array indexing would be >> > >nearly impossible with a free compiler. > >Well, sorta :-) > >The machine that uses those pointers is a virtual machine, down deep >under the covers you'll find that the processors are now POWER >architecture, although I don't think the first AS400s were. That's true about the virtual machine. I also remember that you could mix Pascal, C, RPG, PL/1, et.al., without worrying about callling order or much of anything else -- so IBM said. Most IBM shops stayed away from it in droves, so I never saw how it worked. Nearly all of the 400's, now, have migrated to the power pc chip instead of the older Power risc architecture. Several companies around here made a good living for a couple of years migrating customers. And RPG, believe it or not, is _still_ a religion unapproachable except by the blessed;) -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 21 23: 1:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts1.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20B251554E for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:01:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost.nowhere ([206.172.235.34]) by tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.07 201-229-116-107) with ESMTP id <20000122070134.UYQU24271.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@localhost.nowhere>; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 02:01:34 -0500 Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA52938; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:37:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from tim) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:37:12 -0500 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) Message-ID: <20000122013712.A52838@mad> References: <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Jonathon McKitrick on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 09:34:03PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 09:34:03PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > For example, supposed i write a textbook and only 1,000 copies sell > because now they an be re-sold as used. Doesn't this hurt my > profits? If you write a textbook and only 1000 copies sell, then there isn't much of a market for your textbook secondhand, anyways. Besides that, as the author of a textbook being purchased by students paying exorbant prices, you will not find that the extra money produced by these exorbant prices enters your pocket, for the most part. Where it goes, nobody knows. -- Signature withheld by request of author. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 22 21:54: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF5314CCB for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 21:53:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (j39.klt31.jaring.my [161.142.169.233]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA11570; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:23:47 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA00637; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 15:18:09 +0800 (SGT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 15:18:08 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr, "Matthew D. Fuller" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pico, indentation (was: Re: The 3.4-STABLE sources ...) Message-ID: <20000122151808.F390@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <20000121224739.J918@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <200001220138.SAA25380@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200001220138.SAA25380@usr09.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Sat, Jan 22, 2000 at 01:38:12AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 22 January 2000 at 1:38:12 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> I think both these statements miss the obvious point: clarity of style >> depends on the medium available. style(9) still uses an IBM 029 card >> punch with an 8 step tab on the program drum. This makes it difficult >> to express yourself clearly. > > Works great on my old HeathKit terminal with hard wired, > unprogrammable 8 character tab stops. > > If you are concerned about space, use real tabs. If you are > concerned about format, then make your editor only put in real tabs > on 8 column boundaries, and have the tab key output however many > spaces you want it to, converting sequences of 8 spaces preceeding > an 8 column modular boundary to tabs, retroactively. I think you're off on a tangent. My real issue was the layout on the page, not whether it was represented using tab characters or spaces. Recall that on a punched card there is no tab character; the tab is on the program card, which just tells the punch how many positions on the card to skip. > BTW, "vi" can do this trivially by choosing the right settings, > though if you believed it were: > > set tabstop=2 That's a value I like. But it does not agree with style(9). > Realize that the tab key on computer terminals was invented for > columnar sensitive languages, like FORTRAN and COBOL and some of the > original varieties of BASIC, etc.. The typewriter usage of the tab > key only crept in later, when word processing was invented. I'm not sure that's correct. They seem to be two disparate cultures. ASCII came from telegraphy, and the cards came from data processing. They seem to have merged some time in the 50's or 60's of the last century. > If you want to word process, then do it. If you want to write code, > do that. Thanks. I shall :-) Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 22 22: 2:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93081509F for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:02:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (j39.klt31.jaring.my [161.142.169.233]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA11601; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:31:38 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00614; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:37:16 +0800 (SGT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:37:16 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) Message-ID: <20000122133716.J391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <4.2.2.20000121131307.01a32380@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 02:15:30PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 21 January 2000 at 14:15:30 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:07 PM 1/21/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >> Can i actually make a difference? I have no money to contribute. > > One of the best things you can do is WRITE ABOUT IT. Online, and > also to your legislator and regional newspaper. There should > at least be a Daemon News article about this. Fine. There are still 10 days till the next issue. Can you have an article finished by then? > It'd be nice. Of course, we need to warn about the problems of the > GPL, too, or that radical faction may get even more mileage from > this. You'll get better acceptance of an article on UCITA if you don't mention any other restrictive licenses. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message