Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:31:17 -0800 From: Joshua Tinnin <krinklyfig@spymac.com> To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Cc: Sue Blake <sue@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: It's time to shut down this list. Message-ID: <200412280531.17688.krinklyfig@spymac.com> In-Reply-To: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au> References: <20041228230146.A70476@welearn.com.au>
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On Tuesday 28 December 2004 04:01 am, Sue Blake <sue@freebsd.org> wrote: > FreeBSD-Newbies was created at a time when FreeBSD had only been home > to experienced Unix people with a strong Old Internet community culture. > Occasionally new people had come in and pretty quickly adjusted to > the culture (or left), but until that time we had been almost > entirely the Venerable Hacker type. But we had a sudden new influx > of people who had no Internet or Open Source Community culture, > and the rate was increasing. Some place was needed for them to > talk together about how to culturally integrate with FreeBSD, > and for general chatter of a type that was banned on other lists. > > We had a list called FreeBSD-Chat which was the kind of thing > but it was traditionally the place for FreeBSD-Hackers members > to retreat to, continuing conversations that had started in the > other list. They didn't want the mood to change, so we needed > to set up something like a FreeBSD-Newbies-Chat. It could also > be a place to help with learning to use the mailing lists > correctly, including the importance of sticking to list charters. > > Due to some vague technical or aesthetic limitations, it could not be > called a triple name and had to be shortened from the most obvious > name to FreeBSD-Newbies, therefore it had to have a strong charter to > remind people that it is for chat only, not questions, plus a > periodic reminder notice to the list (the FAK). Yes, leaving the > name like that was a big mistake. I told you so. > > From time to time people have asked for a place for new users to > ask for technical help. That place is, and has always been, > FreeBSD-Questions. If you want a separate group for that, then you > have an issue that has nothing to do with the present discussion. > If there ever were a mailing list for newbie tech support, it would > NOT be this one, it would NOT be this one, do I make myself clear? > A new mailing list would have to be created for the purpose, with a > different name as well as a different list charter. But that's not > the topic of this email. I'm talking only about the social chat > list, FreeBSD-Newbies, that catered for a sudden influx of newbies > last century when newbies were very rare in our community and our > community wasn't sufficiently prepared to understand their social > needs. > > That was many years ago now. Newbies are no longer an extremely > small bunch of odd people coming in and not knowing how we behave. > They are a large active and vital part of our community. The > time for an enclave to protect and encourage their social > interactions in a separate environment is over. Newbies are > much more accepted on all the other mailing lists, indeed their > presence is now expected. > > The FreeBSD-Newbies list has served its purpose, and if thrashed > further will become a liability. Therefore I propose to > disband the FreeBSD-Newbies list by late January 2005. > We might make it read-only from 21st to 30th so that we can > issue a final notice to those who don't read it often (like me). > > Now what are you going to do? I suggest you take your place in the > mainstream community as you deserve to do. Let them know you're a > newbie when you write, and they'll treat you gently. Be sure to > read and agree to the List Charter of each mailing list before you > start using it. And remember, there's no free lunch. You should > consider helping other newbies on FreeBSD-Questions when you feel > competent to do so, and your new user insights are highly valued by > the FreeBSD-Doc documentation group, so please consider helping out > with proof reading and testing docs. The only place that chatter > is allowed is FreeBSD-Chat, and I expect you're all already > subscribed to the read-only FreeBSD-Announce list. > > Thanks to the FreeBSD Wise Ones who respected this list for what > it was, a place for newbies to relax, for so many years. Thanks to > counteless generations of newbies who helped other newbies to > feel welcome and find their way around the main mailing lists. > And to the current newbies, welcome to FreeBSD, you won't > be sorry you joined us, and nor will we. Happy coming-of-age! What was the point of all that discussion, or asking the question in the first place, then, if this is the outcome? I'm sorry, but, can the people on this list not make any impact on the decision, or has it always been up to one person, and if so, why were we asked? And why is there so much emphasis on creating a new list if the charter changes? I don't quite see the logic in that. I'm getting the sense, however, that my questions are rhetorical and it won't make any difference. Oh well. - jt
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