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Date:      Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:15:08 -0700 (PDT)
From:      Simon Shapiro <Shimon@i-Connect.Net>
To:        "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc:        "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: group assignments from make world.
Message-ID:  <XFMail.971008111508.Shimon@i-Connect.Net>
In-Reply-To: <26899.876329950@time.cdrom.com>

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Hi "Jordan K. Hubbard";  On 08-Oct-97 you wrote: 
>  [Redirected to -chat; we've left the charter of -hackers now]

Yup.  you practice what you teach...

 ...

>  So there's more to this mindset than just trying to deflect too many
>  questions from the electronic equivalent of several thousand people
>  looking over one's shoulder, people also need to go into something
>  like -stable or -current with their eyes fully open, and "yer on yer
>  own, kid." appears to be a time-tested eye-opener. ;)

I think we may be talking past each other, while agreeing on two different
things:

Let's, for example, take the PPP errors I am getting with -current.
I posted (and responded to) several message on this subject.

I did so, because I detected an error condition I though is not always
obvious.  My goal wa to raise the issue and offer an opportunity, to the
proper party (many times I do not know who that may be) to know that an
error condition exists and to use my facilities to test for it; Not every
error is reproducable everywhere.  Right?

Now, If my purpose was to just have my connection to the office working,
solving ``my'' problem, then we have a legitimate issue in re-directing the
inquiry  to reduce traffic.

If my attitude would have been  ``The darn FreeBSD thing is broken again, 
YOU fix it!'', then I should switch to M$ or SUN for a while.

I understand that if -current is broken, I have no claim, except for trying
to help fix it.  I also understand that I am owed as much as I paid.  As I
do not pay the FreeBSD project much, not much is owed to me, -current
-stable or otherwise.

My point is that the lines are blurry here, it is a value problem, not a
concept problem.  If I choose to depreciate the list with ``you fix my
problem because you owe me'' things, I am choosing the wrong.  If I choose
to ask questions that are the results of problems, instability, breakage,
lack of documentation, etc. then I am choosing the right (all my opinion).

Maybe splitting the hackers list into SCSI (already there), kernel,
networking, archeology (UUCP :-), etc. will allow us to focus more clearly
on what we choose to track.  This in addition to a bit of policing (self
and otherwise) will greatly help.
 
>  The reality is also that many developers still *do* help anyone with a
>  legitimate question, often devoting many hours to this (like Joerg,
>  our one-man USENET tech support team, or Doug White, our one-man
>  freebsd-questions tech support team!), but it needs to be seen by the
>  users as the charitable donation that it is and no guarantee of any
>  further such support in the future - it's purely take it as you go*.

There is no guarantee anyway.  We all assume certain things by observation,
but there are no assumptions.

---


Sincerely Yours, 

Simon Shapiro                                                 Atlas Telecom
Senior Architect         14355 SW Allen Blvd., Suite 130 Beaverton OR 97005
Shimon@i-Connect.Net                                  Voice:   503.799.2313



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