From owner-freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Thu Apr 20 21:19:20 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DFE1D484AA for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2017 21:19:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from list1@gjunka.com) Received: from msa1.earth.yoonka.com (yoonka.com [88.98.225.149]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "msa1.earth.yoonka.com", Issuer "msa1.earth.yoonka.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 035A6D23 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2017 21:19:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from list1@gjunka.com) Received: from ultrabook.yoonka.com (p5DC0F861.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.192.248.97]) (authenticated bits=0) by msa1.earth.yoonka.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v3KLJH5I094574 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2017 21:19:17 GMT (envelope-from list1@gjunka.com) X-Authentication-Warning: msa1.earth.yoonka.com: Host p5DC0F861.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.192.248.97] claimed to be ultrabook.yoonka.com Subject: Re: Is pkg quarterly really needed? To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org References: <58F61A8D.1030309@a1poweruser.com> <29e44642-e301-f07c-afe3-bad735d8ee5e@freebsd.org> <20170420053722.GD31559@lonesome.com> <20170420084452.GH74780@home.opsec.eu> <99a57878-ae39-d2a4-fe35-023dae8b320b@gjunka.com> <20170420171119.GJ74780@home.opsec.eu> <127a5f89-93ba-aee4-14d3-41e2f2d71892@gjunka.com> <20170420195712.GK74780@home.opsec.eu> From: Grzegorz Junka Message-ID: <399feac5-71d7-25ab-80da-84bd6c2eeeda@gjunka.com> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 21:19:11 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170420195712.GK74780@home.opsec.eu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 21:19:20 -0000 Hi :) On 20/04/2017 19:57, Kurt Jaeger wrote: > Hi! > >> I understand that the main problem with quarterly branches is that they >> start from an unstable edge and mature with time, then after three >> months at the most mature point they are being deleted and replaced with >> a new unstable edge. So, there is no good point of reference to use as a >> source of packages. > First, let me say that for my use cases, the pkg tree is in consistent > state most of the time. We have a set of approx. 2500 pkg's build etc, > so roughly 10% of the full repo. We update the ports tree and build the > repo every week, just to see if all is fine, and we update > and build, if we need a package we do not yet have in our repo. > For the thrills, look at our repo at https://repo.nepustil.net I am maintaining four sets of pkg's for my desktop, laptop and server (in two variants) - anything between 100 to 1300 pkg's resulted from selecting around 10-200 ports depending on the set. I usually first build for my desktop, then if everything is fine I rebuild the set for my laptop, and finally the server. I hardly remember a single upgrade to the longest set that didn't result in some packages being broken. Sure, most of those breakages resulted from me selecting non-standard options (but if I wanted standard options then I would simply install from the official distribution, wouldn't I?). Only last weekend I filled two bugs against ports that didn't compile when either non-default options were selected in those packages or in some of their dependent packages. So, my experience is quite different to yours... > Hmm, let's try this thought experiment. > > For each package, keep the whole repo when it was last build sucessfully > (Note: we're not yet discussing whether it runs!) > > Worst case: We have n ports and n repos. The question is: > what would be the average case ? Would that be a sustainable model ? > > Now, the next question: Even if we have all the repos, > would we find *one* repo where *two* packagew we'd like to have > are in a consistent (build-!)state ? What about the 250+ > that are normally needed for a small server ? Or the 1200+ > for a multi-role server (some will say: "nah, don't do it, use > container/jails/ whatever virtualisiation"). If the whole repository builds doesn't it mean by default that any subset also builds? All packages are build incrementally, the packages that don't depend on any other packages are build first, then any packages that depend on them, and so on. Sure, it doesn't mean that they also run properly, but that's a different story. If packages are build then people can install them and fill bugs. That would be the reason for having CURRENT, STABLE and RELEASE where fixes would be gradually progressed between them. >> What I described is taking the good points (maturing the code through >> progressing version upgrades from CURRENT, through STABLE to RELEASE) > Now, if we have ports-HEAD, and changes to that (especially fixes and > features to the ports infrastructure), it's getting more and more difficult > to backport fixes from ports-HEAD to the ports-STABLE versions, because > those do not contain dependencies and infrastructure changes. > If we backport those, we have to roll forward some other > changes. This gets out of hand very quickly. I see where you are getting at. My assumption was that only version upgrades are progressed from CURRENT to STABLE to RELEASE. If a port can't be progressed because it requires infrastructure change then, well, it won't. STABLE and then RELEASE are meant to be more stable so we would prefer older versions that work rather than new versions that break. Infrastructure changes would have to be progressed eventually but that could be done in batches where most fixes in more edge branches have been fixed. > So: > > If we take the sum of the brain time our maintainers and committers > deliver to keep HEAD in a moving (different from a stagnating) state, > and try to estimate how much *more* time would be needed to > keep additional trees in working conditions, only updating > what is needed, under the assumption that infrastructure changes > *need* to happen ? What would that additional brain time be ? > My inituition tells me that it would probably break the model. On the other hand developers would be more inclined to do changes in CURRENT if they know that they are not going to break ports for the majority of users who should use STABLE or RELEASE. According to the principle "Failing by design ". They would be also more confident when porting changes to more stable branches knowing that they have been tested by many users and if something could have gone wrong most likely already did. > Now, if someone wants to *experiment* with that, we > already have quite a few people doing that: By setting up > our own repo boxes, where we build the trees to our liking. I am not trying to solve the problem for myself. I already have my own repo box. I am just investigating options as many people seem to be unhappy by the current state of affair. That's not to say that I am not annoyed by the frequent breakages in the ports that I am trying to build for my own purpose of course. > The FreeBSD svn commits are public. So, if someone wants > to use it, and select and pick to provide a stable repo, > we would all welcome the effort. If it's a sustained effort over > some time, clusteradm etc would probably add that repo > to the infrastructure. We can even call it the 'caveat'-repo. > > It's just that asking the team that's barely keeping up > to do that *on top*, that will probably not work. That was supposed to be more like *instead* rather than *on top*. >> From that short description it should be more or less >> obvious if that approach is better/doable when opposed to quarterly >> branches? > There's a way to find out: Try it. > Not the best way TBH. I would rather hear some opinions first as I am sure there are plenty of conditions and requirements I haven't even imagined myself yet. Grzegorz