From owner-freebsd-scsi Wed Sep 30 11:29:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20672 for freebsd-scsi-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:29:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Genesis.Denninger.Net (kdhome-2.pr.mcs.net [205.164.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20659 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:29:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from karl@Genesis.Denninger.Net) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Genesis.Denninger.Net (8.9.1/8.8.2) id NAA04521; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:29:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980930132933.B4481@Denninger.Net> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:29:33 -0500 From: Karl Denninger To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Cc: scsi@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Long IDE probes? References: <19980930125858.B4304@Denninger.Net> <199809301819.MAA14837@pluto.plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199809301819.MAA14837@pluto.plutotech.com>; from Justin T. Gibbs on Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 12:13:04PM -0600 Organization: Karl's Sushi and Packet Smashers Sender: owner-freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 12:13:04PM -0600, Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > >The default was recently increased (read: made longer) - like doubled. > > The delay in the generic kernel has always been 15 seconds. The default > with no delay specified has always been 2 seconds. CAM effectively reduces > this delay over the old SCSI code as all bus delays during the initial > prove phase occur in parallel. > > >I *KNOW* that things like Exabytes "go away" for short periods of time > >after a bus reset. But we're talking about *defaults* here, and modern > >disks and tape drives, while they may kvetch internally for a while before > >they'll generally be useful, but virtually all will respond to an inquiry > >within 3-5 seconds - maximum. > > Not everyone who uses FreeBSD has "modern devices". Not everyone > who uses FreeBSD knows that their devices will only work with a longish > delay. Are you saying that we should lose the ability to install on > these machines simply because you, a user that knows how to modify this > behavior, finds the default behavior annoying? > > -- > Justin Justin, quit being a pompous ass and lose the attitude. Its uncalled for. You and I both know damn well that to install you need ONLY, WORST CASE: 1. A floppy that works (to boot from) 2. A CDROM 3. A disk Some folks need only a floppy, disk, and network card - they load off the network. Kvetching about how someone's 1980's scanner or ancient tape drive won't come up under GENERIC on initial boot is both pointless and inappropriate, given that you *know* these facts to be true, and that for every one of those people there are a dozen others who can't boot without manual override of GENERIC's defaults due to ISA bus conflicts. Don't give me crap about how "the defaults must accomodate everyone". They don't RIGHT NOW and FreeBSD has NEVER had that as a criteria for driver probe behavior. I have loaded FreeBSD on a dozen machines over the last two years in which the default network card settings in GENERIC - over which I wanted to load the system - were in conflict with other found devices and as such I had to MANUALLY go into the config screen and reset them. There are a half-dozen machines in MCSNet's computer room that have ISA cards in them that simply WILL NOT run GENERIC without manual intervention - not because the devices aren't there, but because the ONLY possible combination of IRQs and shared RAM addresses aren't the pre-ordained set of ones which are in GENERIC's idea of where devices have to be in order to show up. If you want to make a point about ancient hardware, then explain why in the heck was CAM integrated without ALL the legacy SCSI devices being supported? Don't get me wrong - I'm not bitching about the CAM integration - that was the right choice. It was just as much right as the current settings for bus settling time and probe delays in the IDE code are wrong. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-scsi" in the body of the message