From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 0:23:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AB737B6C9 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:23:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp7.jaring.my (smtp7.jaring.my [61.6.32.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C17943E3B for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:23:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kaeru@pd.jaring.my) Received: from [61.6.121.22] (j8.crc32.jaring.my [61.6.121.22]) by smtp7.jaring.my (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id gAO8IN722907; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:18:24 +0800 (MYT) Subject: Re: newbie question about make and include files From: Khairil Yusof To: Kyle Martin Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20021124073740.GB1450@marvin.bsdng.org> References: <1038119825.47127.115.camel@daemon.home> <20021124073740.GB1450@marvin.bsdng.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-FNr44LYo36eCDgPxQ6w+" Organization: Message-Id: <1038125845.47127.122.camel@daemon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0 Date: 24 Nov 2002 16:17:25 +0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=-FNr44LYo36eCDgPxQ6w+ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2002-11-24 at 15:37, Kyle Martin wrote: > adding include directories can be done with -I, ie: -I/usr/local/include > the library directorys can be specified just like the include directories= , > but with -L, ie -L/usr/local/lib Thanks for the pointers. I can start the compile, but now I run into pthreads problems :) /usr/local/lib/libmikmod.so: undefined reference to `pthread_mutex_lock' which is a better list to pursue further help? newbies@freebsd.org questions@freebsd.org hackers@freebsd.org =20 --=20 Khairil Yusof --=-FNr44LYo36eCDgPxQ6w+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQA94IsVDAqnLW/+/X8RAnV1AKDH7zQFrYhxK91nzZUG71ki5um6xwCgnZIX PptlQOJ/GjDJZIQFdsbw1J0= =4rEH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-FNr44LYo36eCDgPxQ6w+-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 0:54:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35DB537B401; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:54:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (24-159-234-52.jvl.wi.charter.com [24.159.234.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F9943E88; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:54:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mkm@marvin.bsdng.org) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (marvin [127.0.0.1]) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gAO8qja9004557; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:52:45 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mkm@marvin.bsdng.org) Received: (from mkm@localhost) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gAO8qibV004556; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:52:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:52:44 -0600 From: Kyle Martin To: Khairil Yusof Cc: chat@freebsd.org, ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbie question about make and include files Message-ID: <20021124085244.GC1450@marvin.bsdng.org> References: <1038119825.47127.115.camel@daemon.home> <20021124073740.GB1450@marvin.bsdng.org> <1038125845.47127.122.camel@daemon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1038125845.47127.122.camel@daemon.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 04:17:25PM +0800, Khairil Yusof wrote: > Thanks for the pointers. I can start the compile, but now I run into > pthreads problems :) > > /usr/local/lib/libmikmod.so: undefined reference to `pthread_mutex_lock' > > which is a better list to pursue further help? > > newbies@freebsd.org > questions@freebsd.org > hackers@freebsd.org > sounds like your having issues porting source code, id' mail ports@freebsd.org -- Kyle Martin || mkm@IEEE.org || http://www.BSDng.org "Profanity is the only language all programmers understand." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 1: 7:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B5437B404 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:07:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-232-220-15.client.attbi.com [12.232.220.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4620943E3B for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gAO964Uf003270; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:06:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gAO96304003269; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:06:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:06:03 -0800 From: David Schultz To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Gary W. Swearingen : > The OP's complaint might better have been a form of: "there are too many > requirements in the style guide, and this is one example of a > requirement which, regardless of the merit of the particular style in > each developer's mind (or that of whoever controls the style guide), > costs more than it is worth for these reasons: Yes, a few of the requirements in style(9) are unnecessary, but I don't think they're worth debating. For an example of a *really* pedantic style guide, see GNU's coding guidelines. (From what I can tell by looking at GNU software, few people actually follow it.) > "1) People waste more time fixing intrusions of the illegal style than > would be spent by people illegally changing other people's style if > there were no requirement (those changes being a well-known no-no). Some people are just that way. They see something that isn't asthetically pleasing to them, so they `fix' it. Style(9) is merely their justification. While it annoys me when someone makes a bunch of whitespace changes in /etc, I'm willing to live with it. > "2) The additional requirement screens out some potential developers who > won't agree (even grudgingly) to develop under one too many requirements > which they consider lame and over-burdensome. What you say is generally true about open source software, but it's a stretch to apply your reasoning to style(9). I don't think a good programmer is going to shy away from the FreeBSD Project because we ask that control statements with single-statement consequents have no braces. If we asked that no less than one third and no more than two fifths of all statements be preceded by the word `please', that would be another story. ;-) > "3) The assumed benefit of a particular standard style has not been > demonstrated, the style being more likely to be just a idiosyncratic > artifact of a once-influential developer who got his way as a sort of > ego-payment for services rendered." Many of the requirements exist because nobody cares enough to reformat all of the code in a new style. That's probably why you see a number of K&R-isms as well. If you want to change style(9), the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that some requirement is wrong and harmful; you can't just say ``the benefit [of the style] has not been demonstrated.'' Standards aren't always the best solutions, but people still use them because they understand the value of having standards. (At this point, Terry will probably chime in with some witty comment about standards.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 1:34: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C7D37B401 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:34:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-21.mail.nl.demon.net (post-21.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A4643E4A for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:34:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-21.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18Ft9O-0007CK-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:34:02 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 94BA26A56 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:34:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 3E0771F2C for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:33:51 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id B07EF225F8; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:33:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:33:51 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021124093351.GB51850@raggedclown.net> References: <3DDF241B.FF30ACE2@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 02:23:53AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:45 PM -0800 2002/11/22, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > That means that they are limited to holding in their head only the > > maximum amount of data that can be displayed on a screen at a time, > > so the more non-whitespace data you can display in a limited amount > > of real-estate, the better. > > I know I cut off the smiley. I know. > > On the serious side, this isn't a bad argument. I don't think > it's as good as "we follow the standard because it is the standard", > but it's not bad. > > However, I would observe that screens are getting larger, windows > should be getting larger, and you should be able to have more stuff > on screen at once. Indeed, I would argue that perhaps the problem is > that there is too much stuff on screen at once, and that this has > been a problem for some time. > Oh this is true, true, true ! > > In music, the silences are just as important, if not more > important, than the notes. In print publications, proper use of > white space is just as important as the writing. > > I submit that in coding, less dense spaces caused by things like > braces can help improve the overall readability of the program, and > thus the probability of being able to more correctly maintain it. > Yup, I agree, within limits. > > Or do you really want single-line programs that comprise tens of > thousands of kilobytes (or megabytes) of memory? After all, if the > goal is to cram everything together onto the smallest number of lines > possible, we can just remove all whitespace everywhere. > I worked with a programmer who did just this, He had written his own editor that just cut lines at about column 78, and he wrote program code in a continous succession of such lines, cramming as many statements as possible into the line. Whitespace .. pah ! It was a nightmare fixing his programs when we upgraded the O/S and had to change some things. He refused to do it...(unfortunately he was in a position to get away with this). Oddly enough his programs had never been found to have bugs in them, I mean *never*. The trouble was that he was the only person who could read them. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 2: 9: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2656837B401 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:08:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-21.mail.nl.demon.net (post-21.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E80343E4A for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:08:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-21.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18FthB-0007md-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:08:57 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 8BA506A56 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:08:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 642771F2C for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:08:46 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id 7E3EF225F8; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:08:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:08:46 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 01:06:03AM -0800, David Schultz wrote: > Thus spake Gary W. Swearingen : > > The OP's complaint might better have been a form of: "there are too many > > requirements in the style guide, and this is one example of a > > requirement which, regardless of the merit of the particular style in > > each developer's mind (or that of whoever controls the style guide), > > costs more than it is worth for these reasons: > > Yes, a few of the requirements in style(9) are unnecessary, but I > don't think they're worth debating. For an example of a *really* > pedantic style guide, see GNU's coding guidelines. (From what I > can tell by looking at GNU software, few people actually follow it.) > "Hello World" > > "1) People waste more time fixing intrusions of the illegal style than > > would be spent by people illegally changing other people's style if > > there were no requirement (those changes being a well-known no-no). > > Some people are just that way. They see something that isn't > asthetically pleasing to them, so they `fix' it. Style(9) is > merely their justification. While it annoys me when someone makes > a bunch of whitespace changes in /etc, I'm willing to live with it. > > > "2) The additional requirement screens out some potential developers who > > won't agree (even grudgingly) to develop under one too many requirements > > which they consider lame and over-burdensome. > Wither ego-less programming ? > What you say is generally true about open source software, but > it's a stretch to apply your reasoning to style(9). I don't think > a good programmer is going to shy away from the FreeBSD Project > because we ask that control statements with single-statement > consequents have no braces. If we asked that no less than one > third and no more than two fifths of all statements be preceded by > the word `please', that would be another story. ;-) > i = 1; /* assign 1 to the variable i */ > > "3) The assumed benefit of a particular standard style has not been > > demonstrated, the style being more likely to be just a idiosyncratic > > artifact of a once-influential developer who got his way as a sort of > > ego-payment for services rendered." > Well, that may or may not be true. Writing a style guide does not make you any friends, and I hardly considered it a reward when I had to write some...having the grandiose title at the time of "Design Authority" on a project. This basically meant everyone ignored them (I think actually that nobody read them). Of course a "style" is just one person's idea of what a program should look like. I managed to convince a couple of people that some things were beneficial, others I did not. So it goes. I resorted at times to the rather pathetic reasoning that my style was 90% in the tracks of K&R's book. > Many of the requirements exist because nobody cares enough to > reformat all of the code in a new style. That's probably why you > see a number of K&R-isms as well. If you want to change style(9), > the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that some requirement > is wrong and harmful; you can't just say ``the benefit [of the > style] has not been demonstrated.'' Standards aren't always the > best solutions, but people still use them because they understand > the value of having standards. (At this point, Terry will > probably chime in with some witty comment about standards.) > Well there is no standard standard for coding style, as far as I know. Maybe we need an RFC :). Even standard standards are not problem free. Network protocols for example do not always cover what to do with non-meaningful information in a packet header (options combinations that make no sense). So everyone makes their own decisions -- hence exploits become available. In the case of code, mistakes by maintainers unused to the coding style of the original programmer are made more likely. Mmm. For some reason that reminds me of an ex-assembly programmer I worked with who multiplied things by 2 using left shifts..."more efficient" he would say..hee hee. He didn't care about the mystification that may cause in those who followed him. Presumably they would know what such a statement did, but not why it was done that way. Can someone tell me if working code has ever been rejected from FreeBSD sources because it grossly violated the style guidelines ? -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 8:27:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4993037B401 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6958943E6E for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:27:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a187.otenet.gr [212.205.215.187]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAOGRSU6005547; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:27:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAOGRRlk004031; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:27:27 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gAOGRH4Z004017; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:27:17 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:27:17 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021124162717.GA576@gothmog.gr> References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-11-24 11:08, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > Can someone tell me if working code has ever been rejected from FreeBSD > sources because it grossly violated the style guidelines ? Not really "rejected", but if you troll the PR database for a while, you will notice followups to the spirit of ``This looks fine, but it doesn't fit the style of the affected sources. Can you please fix this, and post the new patch in a followup?'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 12:15:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A29737B401 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from c3po.skynet.be (c3po.skynet.be [195.238.3.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 418A843E3B for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:15:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by c3po.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id gAOKEu714547; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:14:56 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20021124162717.GA576@gothmog.gr> References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> <20021124162717.GA576@gothmog.gr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:12:46 +0100 To: Giorgos Keramidas From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Style(9) question Cc: Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:27 PM +0200 2002/11/24, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > Not really "rejected", but if you troll the PR database for a while, > you will notice followups to the spirit of ``This looks fine, but it > doesn't fit the style of the affected sources. Can you please fix > this, and post the new patch in a followup?'' And how many times has a modified patch been submitted as a follow-up, versus how many times people didn't bother to ever again file a PR? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 13:16:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7172537B401 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:16:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A1A043E9C for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:16:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b106.otenet.gr [195.167.121.234]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAOLG2Yh001833; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:16:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAOLFvLP002475; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:15:57 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gAOLFvHi002474; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:15:57 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:15:57 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brad Knowles Cc: Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021124211557.GB1145@gothmog.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: On 2002-11-24 21:12, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 6:27 PM +0200 2002/11/24, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > Not really "rejected", but if you troll the PR database for a while, > > you will notice followups to the spirit of ``This looks fine, but it > > doesn't fit the style of the affected sources. Can you please fix > > this, and post the new patch in a followup?'' > > And how many times has a modified patch been submitted as a > follow-up, versus how many times people didn't bother to ever again > file a PR? I haven't really looked, but if one were to do a ``human resources'' type of research, you'd also have to include cases where a committer makes changes to the submitted patches (and separate these in two cases too, depending on whether the original submitter was annoyed or not). That's a bit difficult to do though, since a lot of the people who are annoyed by such changes probably don't bother mailingn gnats about it... I always try to be as gentle as I can, when I need to make changes to submitted patches, and I can only hope that it doesn't make anyone too upset, leading them to stop working with FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 16:51:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E37937B413 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E5E43E3B for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:51:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0378.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.123] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18G7Sb-0004mg-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:50:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE1739B.5AD2AEA7@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:49:31 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> <20021124162717.GA576@gothmog.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-11-24 11:08, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > Can someone tell me if working code has ever been rejected from FreeBSD > > sources because it grossly violated the style guidelines ? > > Not really "rejected", but if you troll the PR database for a while, > you will notice followups to the spirit of ``This looks fine, but it > doesn't fit the style of the affected sources. Can you please fix > this, and post the new patch in a followup?'' How about just committing the fix, and filing a "style PR" against the working code, instead of having style(9) compliant broken code? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 17: 2:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C23B37B401 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15BF943E91 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:02:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b147.otenet.gr [212.205.244.155]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAP12lYh018798; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:02:48 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAP12iLP017353; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:02:44 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gAP12hBU017352; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:02:43 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:02:42 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021125010242.GE15728@gothmog.gr> References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> <20021124162717.GA576@gothmog.gr> <3DE1739B.5AD2AEA7@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DE1739B.5AD2AEA7@mindspring.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-11-24 16:49, Terry Lambert wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > On 2002-11-24 11:08, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > > Can someone tell me if working code has ever been rejected from FreeBSD > > > sources because it grossly violated the style guidelines ? > > > > Not really "rejected", but if you troll the PR database for a while, > > you will notice followups to the spirit of ``This looks fine, but it > > doesn't fit the style of the affected sources. Can you please fix > > this, and post the new patch in a followup?'' > > How about just committing the fix, and filing a "style PR" against > the working code, instead of having style(9) compliant broken code? That makes the PR databas grow linearly in relation to the number of submitted PRs that have ``style issues''. I am more in favor of fixing any style issues, then commiting the fix, and closing the PR with a notice to the spirit of "I have changed the diff a bitt, because of `foo', and have committed it in revision x.y.z of `bar'." This way both the submitter and people who read the bug report in the future, can quickly spot the commit and see what was done differently. Why it was done differently, is what should be noted when the PR closes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 17:13:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 306FD37B401 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B75F643E4A for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:13:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0378.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.123] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18G7oZ-0002yS-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:13:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE178ED.6883CEC2@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:12:13 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> <20021124162717.GA576@gothmog.gr> <3DE1739B.5AD2AEA7@mindspring.com> <20021125010242.GE15728@gothmog.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-11-24 16:49, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > On 2002-11-24 11:08, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > > > Can someone tell me if working code has ever been rejected from FreeBSD > > > > sources because it grossly violated the style guidelines ? > > > > > > Not really "rejected", but if you troll the PR database for a while, > > > you will notice followups to the spirit of ``This looks fine, but it > > > doesn't fit the style of the affected sources. Can you please fix > > > this, and post the new patch in a followup?'' > > > > How about just committing the fix, and filing a "style PR" against > > the working code, instead of having style(9) compliant broken code? > > That makes the PR databas grow linearly in relation to the number of > submitted PRs that have ``style issues''. Actually, it only grows relative to the number of people for whom style(9) is their sacred cow. 8-). Most people care about the code working, more than about how pretty it is. > I am more in favor of fixing any style issues, then commiting the > fix, and closing the PR with a notice to the spirit of "I have > changed the diff a bitt, because of `foo', and have committed it > in revision x.y.z of `bar'." This is good too. It puts the style(9) compliance onus onto people who care. > This way both the submitter and people who read the bug report in the > future, can quickly spot the commit and see what was done differently. > Why it was done differently, is what should be noted when the PR closes. Yes. The issue, though, was rejection of bug fixes on the basis of style(9). The heart of the issue is which of the two things is more important: compliance with style(9), or the fixing of bugs. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 17:19:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4C737B401 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F1E43E91 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:19:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b147.otenet.gr [212.205.244.155]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAP1JEYh002165; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:19:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAP1JDLP017608; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:19:14 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gAP1JD3a017607; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:19:13 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:19:13 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021125011913.GH15728@gothmog.gr> References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> <20021124162717.GA576@gothmog.gr> <3DE1739B.5AD2AEA7@mindspring.com> <20021125010242.GE15728@gothmog.gr> <3DE178ED.6883CEC2@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DE178ED.6883CEC2@mindspring.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-11-24 17:12, Terry Lambert wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > I am more in favor of fixing any style issues, then commiting the > > fix, and closing the PR with a notice to the spirit of "I have > > changed the diff a bitt, because of `foo', and have committed it > > in revision x.y.z of `bar'." > > This is good too. It puts the style(9) compliance onus onto > people who care. :) > The issue, though, was rejection of bug fixes on the basis of > style(9). Which is hopefully answered above. We can have both. The committer who makes the changes is free to make changes to the diff, and bring it closer to style(9) either a) before committing the changes, or b) afterwards. The fact that there is an existing style is orthogonal to fixing of bugs. One can both fix bug and keep the existing style, or do either of the two, without necessarily depending on the other. > The heart of the issue is which of the two things is more > important: compliance with style(9), or the fixing of bugs. Both. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 17:22:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D6137B401 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BE943E88 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:22:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0378.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.123] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18G7w6-0003sc-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:21:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE17AC0.59F8E322@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:20:00 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> <20021124162717.GA576@gothmog.gr> <3DE1739B.5AD2AEA7@mindspring.com> <20021125010242.GE15728@gothmog.gr> <3DE178ED.6883CEC2@mindspring.com> <20021125011913.GH15728@gothmog.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > The heart of the issue is which of the two things is more > > important: compliance with style(9), or the fixing of bugs. > > Both. Well, we can agree to disagree: "Rough consensus, and working code" -- Jon Postel -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 1:36: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CF537B401 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 01:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from intergate.saturnee.com (intergate.saturnee.com [12.2.144.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFA843E6E for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 01:35:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charlescedeno@mail.com) Received: from mail.com ([192.168.62.40]) by intergate.saturnee.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with SMTP id gAP9Zpa13595 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 04:35:51 -0500 Message-Id: <200211250935.gAP9Zpa13595@intergate.saturnee.com> From: "Charles Cedeno" To: Subject: JOIN for FREE ... 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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 10: 8: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C7537B401 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029EB43EC2 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:08:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id DBAC8706; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA97702 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:07:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:07:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Interesting article in the Register. Message-ID: <20021125100624.E80125-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Seems some of Gates' own people find Unix(like) to be prefereable to their own: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/28226.html Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 12:28:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6418E37B401; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D7D43EAA; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:28:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with ESMTP id <2002112520284005100rrq4qe>; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:28:40 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gAPKT3d8079614; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:29:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gAPKSqvH079611; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:28:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: Giorgos Keramidas Subject: Re: Style(9) question References: <20021124211557.GB1145@gothmog.gr> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 25 Nov 2002 12:28:52 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20021124211557.GB1145@gothmog.gr> Message-ID: <4dbs4d8kcb.s4d@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas writes: > I always try to be as gentle as I can, when I need to make changes to > submitted patches, and I can only hope that it doesn't make anyone too > upset, leading them to stop working with FreeBSD. People should accept, without getting too upset, committers' authority to make such changes and committers should accept, without getting too upset, patchers' not-too-upset commments about the change. Giorgos' suggested practice of briefing patchers about what was changed and why (and not just saying "committed with changes", forcing patchers to dig through freebsd.org for diffs) goes a long way towards smoothing over the natural offense to patchers's feelings than tend to occur with any change. It tends to head off the suspicion that the committer is just riding rough-shod over the patcher and slipping in, without notice, changes that the patcher is likely to not want made, Even better (for the patcher, and debatably for FreeBSD, but not for the committer) is giving the patcher a chance to comment on a proposed change before committing the change. But people should tolerate a lot of maybe-too-fast change commits so as to keep things moving and not over-work the committer. The patcher can always do another PR, if he thinks it's important. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 12:54:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7791737B401 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C22643ED4 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:54:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with ESMTP id <20021125205442053004c07re>; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:54:42 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gAPKt5d8079930 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:55:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gAPKsuQG079925; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:54:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 25 Nov 2002 12:54:56 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson writes: > [snip] This basically meant everyone ignored them (I think actually > that nobody read them). More common, from my experience, is good-old-boy, wink-of-the-eye variable enforcement of standards, so that standards are learned and followed best by the persons who recieve the most frequent and severe sanctions for violations. (And to a lesser degree, by those with the least pressure to produce working code.) The system obviously has some practical merit, but it often results in a lot of unhappy programmers. This is one reason for very strict enforcement of standards -- even automated systems -- so that favoritism doesn't rear it's ugly head. Of course, it tends to slow down and ire the most productive coders. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 14:36:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE84F37B404 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9EB43ED1 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:36:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0340.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.85] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GRqN-0003jD-00; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:36:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE2A5AD.C4EEC373@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:35:25 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Of course, it tends to slow down and ire the most productive coders. "I can make it run as fast as you want, as long as it doesn't have to work" -- Ed Lane -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 15:18:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F8137B401 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:18:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-21.mail.nl.demon.net (post-21.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A4143EC2 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:18:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-21.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18GSUs-000Gre-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:18:34 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id F1290BB0A for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:18:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id E49F11854 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:18:22 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id 23DD422596; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:18:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:18:23 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021125231823.GA567@raggedclown.net> References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> <20021124090603.GA3172@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <20021124100846.GC51850@raggedclown.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 12:54:56PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Cliff Sarginson writes: > > > [snip] This basically meant everyone ignored them (I think actually > > that nobody read them). > > More common, from my experience, is good-old-boy, wink-of-the-eye > variable enforcement of standards, so that standards are learned and > followed best by the persons who recieve the most frequent and severe > sanctions for violations. (And to a lesser degree, by those with the > least pressure to produce working code.) The system obviously has some > practical merit, but it often results in a lot of unhappy programmers. > > This is one reason for very strict enforcement of standards -- even > automated systems -- so that favoritism doesn't rear it's ugly head. > Of course, it tends to slow down and ire the most productive coders. > Mmm. Well then we get to the question of what productivity means. Joe Wizard may turn out working code very quickly, but written in his own idiosyncratic style. 2 years later, he has burnt out and is raising chickens from a caravan in Wales. Fred Newbie is assigned the task of maintaining Joe's code and he goes cross-eyed in the process...so his productivity is severely impaired. If people are writing code probably destined for a long-life it seems to me not such a bad idea that some kind of standard format, even a loose one, is better than none at all. But we keep going back to the point on agreement of what is a style generally usable by most programmers. Unless you give the powers of Cardinal Richelieu to the program authority on this, there will always be programmers who will not follow *any* of the guidelines. If such a person presents a 2000 line program, written without a care for any poor sod that is going to have to read it, but it "works", what Project Manager will be pleased to hear that he has been told to re-format it, an activity that may take days of begrudged work. So enforcement is better before and during the act, it is fairly hopeless afterwards. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 4:40:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E450037B404 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from rockwelldatacorp.com (108.Red-80-33-216.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.33.216.108]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 89F3543EB2 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:40:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j.schroeder@rockwelldatacorp.com) From: "J Schroeder" To: Subject: Urgent Unix Support Requirement for Frankfurt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:39:47 +0100 Reply-To: "J Schroeder" Message-Id: <20021127124018.89F3543EB2@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi. If any of you guys are looking (or know of anyone looking) for a new position in Frankfurt, I have a colleague looking for several Unix Support people there. Please drop me a mail if interested and I will forward details The rquirement involves: Knowledge of UNIX, SQL or programming languages, Standard Microsoft software, Native German speaker (also good knowledge of English) Best regards, J. Schroeder To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 4:42:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8CD737B404 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:42:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from rockwelldatacorp.com (108.Red-80-33-216.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.33.216.108]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 57DFD43EC2 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:42:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j.schroeder@rockwelldatacorp.com) From: "J Schroeder" To: Subject: Urgent Unix Support Requirement for Frankfurt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:42:23 +0100 Reply-To: "J Schroeder" Message-Id: <20021127124255.57DFD43EC2@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi. If any of you guys are looking (or know of anyone looking) for a new position in Frankfurt, I have a colleague looking for several Unix Support people there. Please drop me a mail if interested and I will forward details The rquirement involves: Knowledge of UNIX, SQL or programming languages, Standard Microsoft software, Native German speaker (also good knowledge of English) Best regards, J. Schroeder To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 11:58:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1561C37B401 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA91B43EB2 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:58:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0147.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.147] helo=mindspring.com) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18H8K2-0000f4-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:58:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE52381.A56877E4@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:56:49 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: J Schroeder Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Urgent Unix Support Requirement for Frankfurt References: <20021127124255.57DFD43EC2@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ This (-chat) and -jobs are the only appropriate lists to post to, out of the lists you posted to. Please do not post job offers to lists other than -jobs, or -chat, if you have to shotgun. ] J Schroeder wrote: > If any of you guys are looking (or know of anyone looking) for a new > position in Frankfurt, I have a colleague looking for several Unix > Support people there. Please > drop me a mail if interested and I will forward details > > The rquirement involves: Knowledge of UNIX, SQL or programming languages, > Standard Microsoft software, Native German speaker (also good knowledge of > English) Good UNIX people rarely admit a familiarity with Microsoft, for fear that they will be asked to work on Microsoft instead of on UNIX. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 12: 6:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB95437B401 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.Alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FB443E9C for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:06:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ulf@Alameda.net) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EEDF93A204; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:06:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:06:45 -0800 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Terry Lambert Cc: J Schroeder , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Urgent Unix Support Requirement for Frankfurt Message-ID: <20021127120645.I27994@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net References: <20021127124255.57DFD43EC2@mx1.FreeBSD.org> <3DE52381.A56877E4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3DE52381.A56877E4@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:56:49AM -0800 Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.7-PRERELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:56:49AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > [ This (-chat) and -jobs are the only appropriate lists to post to, > out of the lists you posted to. Please do not post job offers to > lists other than -jobs, or -chat, if you have to shotgun. > ] > > > J Schroeder wrote: > > If any of you guys are looking (or know of anyone looking) for a new > > position in Frankfurt, I have a colleague looking for several Unix > > Support people there. Please > > drop me a mail if interested and I will forward details > > > > The rquirement involves: Knowledge of UNIX, SQL or programming languages, > > Standard Microsoft software, Native German speaker (also good knowledge of > > English) > > Good UNIX people rarely admit a familiarity with Microsoft, > for fear that they will be asked to work on Microsoft instead > of on UNIX. > > -- Terry Plus I have seen you now posting the same message on at least 5 mailing lists .... tsk tsk -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 12:40:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E7137B401 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D686743EA9 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:40:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0147.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.147] helo=mindspring.com) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18H8yL-0004kn-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:39:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE52D3B.F4AD10FB@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:38:19 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ulf@Alameda.net Cc: J Schroeder , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Urgent Unix Support Requirement for Frankfurt References: <20021127124255.57DFD43EC2@mx1.FreeBSD.org> <3DE52381.A56877E4@mindspring.com> <20021127120645.I27994@seven.alameda.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:56:49AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > J Schroeder wrote: > > > If any of you guys are looking (or know of anyone looking) for a new > > > position in Frankfurt, I have a colleague looking for several Unix > > > Support people there. Please > > > drop me a mail if interested and I will forward details > > Plus I have seen you now posting the same message on at least 5 > mailing lists .... tsk tsk By which you meant "J Schroeder was posting the same message on multiple lists". FWIW: If you wanted to disambiguate it, you would have used "him" instead of "you", since "you" refers to the most recent person object, and 'him' would be the implied subject under discussion, which is the original poster. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 14:48:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 931) id 9590B37B401; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:48:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:48:36 -0800 From: Juli Mallett To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Embedded FreeBSD Cookbook Message-ID: <20021127144836.A61954@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i Organisation: The FreeBSD Project X-Alternate-Addresses: , , , , X-Towel: Yes X-LiveJournal: flata, jmallett X-Negacore: Yes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anyone run across the "Embedded FreeBSD Cookbook"? It seems to be recently published and also seems to be fairly interesting, and I'm considering picking up a copy off of Amazon, just for the sake of having it. Is it worth the USD35? Is it worth _anything_? :) Thanks, juli. -- Juli Mallett OpenDarwin, Mono, FreeBSD Developer. ircd-hybrid Developer, EFnet addict. FreeBSD on MIPS-Anything on FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 15:55:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C6937B401 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from vador.skynet.be (vador.skynet.be [195.238.3.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D991E43EB2 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:55:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [146.106.12.76] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by vador.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id gARNtdm05451; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:55:39 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20021127124018.89F3543EB2@mx1.FreeBSD.org> References: <20021127124018.89F3543EB2@mx1.FreeBSD.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:55:20 +0100 To: "J Schroeder" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Urgent Unix Support Requirement for Frankfurt Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:39 PM +0100 2002/11/27, J Schroeder wrote: > If any of you guys are looking (or know of anyone looking) for a new > position in Frankfurt, I have a colleague looking for several Unix > Support people there. Please > drop me a mail if interested and I will forward details I have mentioned some details of your offer to some friends of mine on the Linuxbierwanderung list, and "Kevin Lee" has asked me to send his name and e-mail address to you. Feel free to contact him directly. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 4:10:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC1B37B404 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 04:10:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from plum.cyber.com.au (plum.cyber.com.au [203.7.155.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02DC843E88 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 04:10:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from army@cyber.com.au) Received: from vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (vanilla.office.cyber.com.au [192.168.155.226]) by plum.cyber.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id XAA13507 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:10:25 +1100 Received: by vanilla.office.cyber.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1103) id ADC4D57BAD8; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:10:23 +1100 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:10:23 +1100 From: Paul Armstrong To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: CD-ROM based systems Message-ID: <20021128121023.GL1069@vanilla.office.cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've seen a lot of conversation over the years for putting systems on CD-ROM for various reasons. However, I've never seen anyone automate this process... Being a large fan of automation, I decided to write some code to allow the administrators to setup a system and just type 'make' to have it generate an ISO. The idea started out as a way of building CD-ROM based packet filters. However, it's a generic script and can be used for just about any system you want to have booting from CD. The script also supports the building of another CD for automating the partitioning of hard disks and supplying a recovery type disk (this CD is written before file removal if you're doing that). I wrote it for use on FreeBSD (although it shouldn't take much to port it if sufficient interest is shown) and have made it available under a BSD style license. For anyone that's interested in this kind of thing, please have a look and send ideas/patches/bugs/bitches back to this address or psarmstr@optushome.com.au The script and some supporting/example files can be downloaded from http://members.optushome.com.au/psarmstr/ Paul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 9: 1: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BEE137B408 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pollux.asml.nl (ns.asml.nl [195.109.200.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7AC43EA9 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:01:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from creon.asml.nl (creon [146.106.1.223]) by pollux.asml.nl (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09469; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 18:01:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from titan.asml.nl (titan [146.106.1.9]) by creon.asml.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gASH12B03319; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 18:01:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from [146.106.12.76] (frobozz.asml.nl [146.106.12.76]) by titan.asml.nl (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02858; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 18:00:58 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20021127124018.89F3543EB2@mx1.FreeBSD.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 18:00:33 +0100 To: "J Schroeder" , From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Urgent Unix Support Requirement for Frankfurt Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:55 AM +0100 2002/11/28, Brad Knowles wrote: > I have mentioned some details of your offer to some friends of > mine on the Linuxbierwanderung list, and "Kevin Lee" > has asked me to send his name and e-mail address to you. Feel free > to contact him directly. Doh! Sorry, my brain was kinda fuzzy when I wrote that. Didn't mean to send that to the whole list. ;-( -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 17:30:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D975C37B401 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 17:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [193.197.184.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1ACE43EAF for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 17:30:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with gbsmtp id 18HZz6-00075c-00; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:30:24 +0100 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAT0jgi6046166 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:45:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gAT0jgEr046165 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:45:42 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Urgent Unix Support Requirement for Frankfurt Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:45:41 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <20021127124018.89F3543EB2@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > If any of you guys are looking (or know of anyone looking) for a new > > position in Frankfurt, I have a colleague looking for several Unix > > Support people there. > > I have mentioned some details of your offer to some friends of > mine on the Linuxbierwanderung list, This guy is *spamming* every Unix-related list he can find. I strongly suggest not to reward this sort of behavior. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 0: 1:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9635E37B401 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:01:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A8643E88 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:01:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0092.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.92] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Hg5s-0001sV-00; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:01:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE71E9D.868B70AD@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:00:29 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Barcroft Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: sparc64 tinderbox failure References: <200211282123.gASLN7nL037336@bowie.private> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Barcroft wrote: > Running test funny_targets > FAIL: Test failed: regression detected. See above. > *** Error code 1 Is this what happens when no one laughs? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 4:22:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6AF37B401 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 04:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.bezeq.co.il (bzq-25-121-11.cust.bezeqint.net [212.25.121.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC1E943EC5 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 04:22:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from q92fg5u@alinto.com) Received: from server2042.virtualave.net ([217.223.226.155]) by mail.bezeq.co.il with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:21:38 +0200 Message-ID: <00003cf86266$00003868$00001c79@mx.alibaba.com> To: , , From: "Mary Clark" Subject: ~Try this baby out (y5o5) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 05:21:44 -1900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: ifbno4z@mailfreecn.com X-Mailer: Pine.SOL.4.21 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Nov 2002 12:21:41.0343 (UTC) FILETIME=[09D14EF0:01C2986B] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ------------------------------------------------------------ Brand-New VERSION 8.2 Just Released: Astounding New Software Lets You Find Out Almost ANYTHING about ANYONE... ------------------------------------------------------------ Download it right now (no charge card needed): * For the brand-new VERSION 8.2, with access to ** *** 200+ million records on U.S. citizens alone, **** * click here: ** http://redir7.T0PBIZH0ST.NET/freeht/exp1.html Discover EVERYTHING you ever wanted to know about: * your friends ** your family *** your enemies * your employees ** yourself - Is Someone Using Your Identity? *** even your boss! ~ DID YOU KNOW you can search for ANYONE, ANYTIME, ANYWHERE, right on the Internet? ~~ Download this software right now--click here: http://host33.T0PBIZH0ST.NET/freeht/exp1.html === This mammoth COLLECTION of internet investigative tools & research sites will provide you with NEARLY 400 GIGANTIC SEARCH RESOURCES to locate information on: ==== -- people you trust --- screen new tenants or roommates - housekeepers -- current or past employment --- people you work with - license plate number with name and address -- unlisted phone numbers --- long lost friends Locate e-mails, phone numbers, or addresses: --> Get a Copy of Your FBI file. ---> Get a Copy of Your Military file. -> FIND DEBTORS and locate HIDDEN ASSETS. --> Check CRIMINAL Drug and driving RECORDS. ---> Lookup someone's EMPLOYMENT history. <<< For the brand-new VERSION 8.2, click here: <<<< http://free9.T0PBIZH0ST.NET/freeht/exp1.html >>> Locate old classmates, missing family member, or a LONG LOST LOVE: >>>> ===> Do Background Checks on EMPLOYEES before you hire them. => Investigate your family history, birth, death and government records! ==> Discover how UNLISTED phone numbers are located. ===> Check out your new or old LOVE INTEREST. => Verify your own CREDIT REPORTS so you can correct WRONG information. ==> Track anyone's Internet ACTIVITY; see the sites they visit, and what they are typing. ===> Explore SECRET WEB SITES that conventional search engines have never found. 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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 22: 5: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DEE337B401 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34CAB43EB2 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7931005F for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:04:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pantherdragon.org (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with ESMTP id B600EAA98 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:04:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:04:48 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm planning on making a port skeleton for a GPL'd program. I can't, though, figure out if I have to GPL the port skeleton or not. If the skeleton is just the basic wrapper Makefile and uses the entire contents of the original tarball verbatim, the skeleton is the equivalent of an external start-up script and thus outside the scope of the original license, right? What if I need to include patches or replace the original Makefiles to get a clean build and install? Do those patches and replacements have to be GPL'd? I've read the GPL, and all I gained is a state of confusion. IANAL, I guess. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 22:44:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09CC537B401 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (24-159-239-62.jvl.wi.charter.com [24.159.239.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF4C43EDA for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:44:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mkm@marvin.bsdng.org) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB10hOtx032407; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 00:43:24 GMT (envelope-from mkm@marvin.bsdng.org) Received: (from mkm@localhost) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gB10hNQY032406; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 00:43:23 GMT Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 00:43:23 +0000 From: Kyle Martin To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? Message-ID: <20021201004323.GD811@marvin.bsdng.org> References: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Nov 30, 2002 at 10:04:48PM -0800, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:04:48 -0800 > From: Darren Pilgrim > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? > > I'm planning on making a port skeleton for a GPL'd program. I can't, > though, figure out if I have to GPL the port skeleton or not. If the of course not > skeleton is just the basic wrapper Makefile and uses the entire contents > of the original tarball verbatim, the skeleton is the equivalent of an > external start-up script and thus outside the scope of the original > license, right? What if I need to include patches or replace the > original Makefiles to get a clean build and install? Do those patches > and replacements have to be GPL'd? I've read the GPL, and all I gained nope we do it all the time, look at any of the thousands of ported GPL applications -- Kyle Martin , http://www.bsdng.org -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d s:- a-- C+++ UB++++ P--- L- E--- W++ N+ o-- K- w--- O- M+ V-- PS+++ PE-- Y-- PGP++ t--- 5-- X+++ R+ tv b+++ DI+ D G- e* h++ r% y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 22:50: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21AC37B401 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602B243EDC for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:50:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0190.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.190] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18INvZ-0004WO-00; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:50:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE9B0CC.8A368E61@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:48:44 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? References: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote: > I'm planning on making a port skeleton for a GPL'd program. I can't, > though, figure out if I have to GPL the port skeleton or not. If the > skeleton is just the basic wrapper Makefile and uses the entire contents > of the original tarball verbatim, the skeleton is the equivalent of an > external start-up script and thus outside the scope of the original > license, right? What if I need to include patches or replace the > original Makefiles to get a clean build and install? Do those patches > and replacements have to be GPL'd? I've read the GPL, and all I gained > is a state of confusion. IANAL, I guess. You are basically asking the question "What makes A a derivative work of B?". Please see: http://www.pbwt.com/Attorney/files/ravicher_1.pdf For a lawyer's take on the subject, with regard to Open Source Software. See also: http://www.law.duke.edu/copyright/copykids/definitions.html#derivativework IMO: o The skeleton is _not_ a derivative work o The patches *are* a derivative work (thre represent deltas against the original code, and would preferrably "go away", so that the code would compile on FreeBSD without modification) o Replacement Makefiles are not derivative, but you might as well make them GPL, since they aren't useful without the code that it compiles. In general, replacements shouldn't be necessary; probably, you need to install "bash" and "gmake" and perhaps other code as package dependencies, instead, to avoid the rewrite. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message