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Date:      Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:40:55 -0500
From:      Valeri Galtsev <galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu>
To:        freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait)
Message-ID:  <5e46ccef-3cce-7769-bbd0-167eee6f01fc@kicp.uchicago.edu>
In-Reply-To: <f5a0170f-a97d-c961-8a4f-95e1c1454dda@gmail.com>
References:  <CAGBxaXk0Abwzk08aUFiNutTpADzAx4btFa0sWjuCoT_Awa=zuQ@mail.gmail.com> <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> <f5a0170f-a97d-c961-8a4f-95e1c1454dda@gmail.com>

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On 4/24/20 4:57 AM, Shamim Shahriar wrote:
> On 24/04/2020 01:09, 令狐月弦 wrote:
>> I am on freebsd list but I do like freebsd :) due to it is more light 
>> and stable than others, as server running environment. freebsd is may 
>> not as good as linux for desktop environment IMO.
>>
> disclaimer:
> this is not a personal response to any particular message. I am merely 
> responding to a pattern or generic typical statement. Mostly in line of 
> "this is better than that" or "FreeBSD is rubbish as desktop 
> environment" or "I have no idea what I am talking about and am very 
> proud of it". You have been warned!
> 
> 
> now, for the main response
> 
> and Linux is not as good as MS Windows
> and Windows is not as good as MacOS
> and MacOS is not as good as . . .
> 
> You can continue the way you prefer. I had been using FreeBSD as my 
> primary desktop/laptop environment for many many years now -- with many 
> ups and downs, but with much better success than people are led to 
> believe. There are times when I need to resort to other OS based system 
> primarily because people keep on pushing me to sites/items that I 
> personally neither need nor want (Flash, for example) -- but friends and 
> enemies are very keen on being the most tech savvy modern "dude" . . . 
> (you get the picture).
> 
> At work I use both MacOS and Windows. When it comes to security, guess 
> which OS I tend to turn to.
> 
> Anyway, in my own personal opinion, the inherent problem of the 
> statement above (and anything similar) is, people seem to confuse Linux 
> with desktop environment -- which it is not! Linux is nothing but just 
> the kernel. It is not even the base system -- let alone the userland!
> 
> People can complain that KDE does not work on particular hardware, or X 
> does not like certain graphics card. That has nothing to do with 
> FreeBSD. Anything and everything outside the base system are the fruit 
> of the hard labour by people trying to adopt things that were created 
> for some other system. The fruit will be mostly sweet, sometimes sour, 
> and that is how it should be going forward (IMHO). That is what the 
> Ports are offering -- take it or leave it, or alternatively help make it 
> better (testing, reporting issues, contributing to codes, donations -- 
> many different options to suit most people). FreeBSD is NOT Linux -- 
> there are concepts in FreeBSD like base, userland, ports -- something 
> worth familiarizing yourselves with in order to have a meaningful 
> conversation. FreeBSD boasts to have the best possible documentation -- 
> challenge it, read it through, prove it wrong before making assumptions. 
> Understanding the differences between other OSs is also essential (no, 
> it is NOT optional) unless you are content to make stupid remarks and be 
> proud of it.
> 
> It is amusing how people put "constructive criticism" without even 
> realizing what they are criticizing -- "FreeBSD is not suitable as 
> desktop environment" (and similar comments), for example. Well, what do 
> you mean by "desktop environment" and is FreeBSD really offering you 
> one? Or is your inability to make a third party system play nice on your 
> hardware, combined with your lack of understanding of what FreeBSD truly 
> is, is forcing you to expose the shortcomings/frustration on public 
> forum in shapes and form that makes people think that you hate FreeBSD?
> 
> I wonder . . .
> 
> Have fun!
> 
> 
> 
>> regards.
>>
>> Aryeh Friedman wrote:
>>> It seems like there are more then normal (than in years past) people 
>>> on the
>>> -questions@ list that for whatever reason just*HATE*  FreeBSD for 
>>> technical
>>> and non-technical reasons.    If you hate FreeBSD so much why are you on
>>> this list and why do you use FreeBSD?  I suspect in many cases they use
>>> FreeBSD because it is more stable then their favorite OS (linux).  Hint:
>>> that stability is in many cases due to the very reasons you hate FreeBSD
>>> (conservative adoption of features for example, not using GPL as much as
>>> possible, so called "out-dated" features and lack of "modern" hardware
>>> support -- the last two are either subjective or just out right 
>>> incorrect).
> 
> To answer the original post, IMHO the primary purpose / function of the 
> Trolls are to
> a. fill the Internet with loads of misleading and false information, so 
> that when newcomers are searching online for information, these 
> misleading and false information are at the top of the response
> b. try to persuade any newcomer from finding the truth and discourage 
> adopting to FreeBSD
> c. So far, I think this is the only place (FreeBSD mailing lists in 
> general) where people are more accommodating, and does not kick people 
> out for speaking BS. Despite being member in many Linux lists, I am not 
> aware of any Linux list being trolled so much, or accommodating to 
> people with different opinion (if anyone know of any, I'll be quite 
> happy to take a look at the list archive and accept my mistake).
> 
> The second statement above is from my personal experience. In a former 
> job, I had serious difficulty in convincing my then line manager as to 
> why they should move to FreeBSD -- primarily because his "Tech Savvy 
> Friends" and "googling" convinced him that FreeBSD is the most insecure 
> OS there can be -- even worse that M$ :P :P :P. At one point I even 
> setup a server and invited him to ask his friends to find any flaws -- 
> and of course, he refused to indulge me in that pursuit . . .
> 
> I'm not saying these are the only reasons, but in my own personal 
> opinion, these are at least within top seven.

Well said. Thanks a lot!!

Valeri

> 
> Best regards.
> 
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-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



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