From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 5:24:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 182B714F76 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 05:24:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA13554; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:24:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 Nov 1999 14:24:36 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070097 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.97) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.wired.com/news/ "Jackson's 207-page condemnation of Microsoft released late Friday reads like a litany of precisely the same offenses the company's enemies have spent years complaining about -- and spent much of the trial accusing the world's richest antitrust defendant of masterminding." "[Judge Jackson's] factual findings in this case are so anti-Microsoft that it's difficult to overemphasize how badly the company has lost the first round." DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 5:28:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0406514F76 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 05:28:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA13565; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:28:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Jackson's Findings of Fact From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 Nov 1999 14:28:24 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 6 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070097 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.97) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The entire 206-page document is available in HTML, PDF and WordPerfect format from . DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 9:51:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orange.csi.cam.ac.uk (orange.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289FD14BD8 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:51:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23 (helo=localhost) by orange.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 3.03 #1) id 11kWT9-0003Dp-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 07 Nov 1999 17:51:11 +0000 Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 17:51:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Student project ideas Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! I'm a student doing Computer Science at Cambridge University. This year I have to do a project (to take about 8 months), and I wondered if you can suggest anything. (I'd probably find writing tools for X, networking, TeX/LaTeX and system admin stuff interesting, although not all ideas will be suitable for this project. If someone suggests something that I find interesting, I might do it sometime anyway, even if it isn't suitable;) There is an entry in the mailing list archives "Re: Idea for a small project..." suggesting that a web page for FreeBSD-related project ideas should be set up; unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have been set up. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=618761+622552+/usr/local/www/db/text/1998/freebsd-hackers/19980920.freebsd-hackers Thanks, Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 11:22:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A82E21502A for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:22:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keichii@mail.utexas.edu) Received: from [38.192.209.90] (helo=keichii) by relay4.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) id 11kXtA-0005EE-00; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:22:08 -0500 Message-ID: <000901bf2955$60bb2660$5ad1c026@keichii> From: "雲電之風 Michael Wu" To: , References: Subject: Re: Student project ideas Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:22:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org GUI interface in X for /stand/sysyinstall ? It also could track the make and compiles that you have done i.e. tracking what parts of the source you have made for make world what you have installed, GUI control for cvsup with extensive functionssuch as choosing which branch/what part of the source directory to cvsup, GUI frontend to make with option choosing[such as USA_RESIDENT=YES or install or -j14] i.e. Windoze-like control panel stuff....... [ I know, I know, flame me if you must. I use console for most things, but it would help newbies a lot more. ] -- I personally would like to see a program with matlab-syntax ;) -- -- Michael Chin-Yuan Wu 鉛刀貴一割﹐夢想聘良圖。 Strive for the very best, the outcome is not important. FreeBSD - Service Pack FFFF For NT -- ----- Original Message ----- 寄件者: Ben Cohen 收件者: 傳送日期: 1999年11月7日 AM 11:51 主旨: Student project ideas : Hi! : : I'm a student doing Computer Science at Cambridge University. This year I : have to do a project (to take about 8 months), and I wondered if you can : suggest anything. : : (I'd probably find writing tools for X, networking, TeX/LaTeX and system : admin stuff interesting, although not all ideas will be suitable for this : project. If someone suggests something that I find interesting, I might : do it sometime anyway, even if it isn't suitable;) : : There is an entry in the mailing list archives "Re: Idea for a small : project..." suggesting that a web page for FreeBSD-related project ideas : should be set up; unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have been set up. : : http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=618761 +622552+/usr/local/www/db/text/1998/freebsd-hacker s/19980920.freebsd-hackers : : Thanks, : : Ben. : : : : : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org : with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 11:51:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A92114A05 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:51:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Stanislav@mail.bfm.org) Received: from WhizKid (r46.bfm.org [216.127.220.142]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:51:35 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991107135153.00a4d840@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 13:51:53 -0600 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 14:24 07-11-1999 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >http://www.wired.com/news/ And let's not forget http://www.wired.com/news/antitrust/findfact.html - all of the judge's findings. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 12:11:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD59A14D33 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA36022; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:14:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199911072014.PAA36022@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: Jackson's Findings of Fact In-Reply-To: from Dag-Erling Smorgrav at "Nov 7, 1999 02:28:24 pm" To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:14:35 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote, > The entire 206-page document is available in HTML, PDF and WordPerfect > format from . What?! Not available in M$ Word format?! -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 12:18: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6089614C4A for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:18:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07920; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:42:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:42:26 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jackson's Findings of Fact In-Reply-To: <199911072014.PAA36022@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Crist J. Clark wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote, > > The entire 206-page document is available in HTML, PDF and WordPerfect > > format from . > > What?! Not available in M$ Word format?! funny how during the whole lawsuit there were tons of articles about ongoing NT integration in various US govt insitutions. I guess having to tow a battleship back into harbor because of a Blue Screen of Death doesn't teach them much. *sigh* -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 12:38:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBCB014D08 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:38:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08776 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:03:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:03:04 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: keeping compatibility Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yesterday I realized how much has changed in -current but yet things still "just work" X packages depend on 3.x libs, they work Some things depend on old threads libs, a symlink fixes that I have old stuff with the old signal syscalls installed yet everything seems to work... :) I'd just like to say that things are looking great and a big thanks to everyone who's worked so hard to keep everything working so well. thanks, -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@rush.net|alfred@freebsd.org] Wintelcom systems administrator and programmer - http://www.wintelcom.net/ [bright@wintelcom.net] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 14:25:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DDA814BE4 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:25:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.57]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA54A; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 17:26:39 -0500 Message-ID: <3825FEA8.14D16D33@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 17:35:20 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=B6=B3=B9q=A4=A7=AD=B7?= Michael Wu Cc: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Student project ideas References: <000901bf2955$60bb2660$5ad1c026@keichii> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "雲電之風 Michael Wu" wrote: > ... > -- > I personally would like to see a program with > matlab-syntax ;) > Try ports/math/Yorick, it's C-like sintax, but it's cool. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 14:31: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F95F150CB for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:30:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.57]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA56D for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 17:32:06 -0500 Message-ID: <3825FFEF.4D40DD20@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 17:40:47 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Isn't it a good time to be a FreeBSD user? :-). I read the complete document(WOW, I wasn't aware of everything there). Considering a Judge wrote this, I think M$ is in big trouble. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 15:35:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B62150AB for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:35:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA71555; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:35:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:35:12 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: Pedro Fernando Giffuni Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: <3825FFEF.4D40DD20@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > Isn't it a good time to be a FreeBSD user? :-). Anytime is. > I read the complete document(WOW, I wasn't aware of everything there). They certainly are a bunch of sleaze bags, aren't they? Read _Barbarians Led by Bill Gates : Microsoft from the Inside_ by Jennifer Edstrom, Marlin Eller for an idea of the M$ mindset. > Considering a Judge wrote this, Actually that's the type of thing judges' clerks do. > I think M$ is in big trouble. I wouldn't count on that just yet. a) Appeals will go on for years, and years, and ...... b) They lost last time too and the results were negligible. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 16:29: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE11150D2 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:28:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.56]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6A2; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 19:29:56 -0500 Message-ID: <38261B8D.FF217339@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 19:38:37 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jack , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org jack wrote: > > Today Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > > > Isn't it a good time to be a FreeBSD user? :-). > > Anytime is. > Well yes, but now it's even better. Some people can't imagine the Internet (or life) without M$. > > I think M$ is in big trouble. > > I wouldn't count on that just yet. > a) Appeals will go on for years, and years, and ...... The effect of the bare Fact of Findings is important: M$ will have to behave for some time. I will also expect a reaction from the society against M$ products. > b) They lost last time too and the results were negligible. > J++, AFAIK disappeared from the market and is not a Java player anymore. Even if they can start their evil doings again, theit strategy was harmed. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 16:48:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.inx.de (www.inx.de [195.21.255.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8F514E3E for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:48:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from n36-35.berlin.snafu.de ([195.21.36.35] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by www.inx.de with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 11kcyl-0004bP-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 08 Nov 1999 01:48:16 +0100 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id 17AAF4AB; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 01:44:59 +0100 (CET) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CAM and CD Ripping References: <381FA175.87D97BDF@dreamfire.net> <3.0.6.32.19991103055022.008813a0@mail.psn.net> <19991103115552.A62482@internal> From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 08 Nov 1999 01:44:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: Andre Albsmeier's message of "Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:55:52 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andre Albsmeier writes: > cd0: Removable CD-ROM SCSI-2 device > cd0: 3.300MB/s transfers > > It does 12x data and 12x audio. That's why I stick with it :-) Unfortunately this is not a function of the "3.300MB/s transfers". Mine says: cd0: Removable CD-ROM SCSI-2 device cd0: 3.300MB/s transfers and does 1x data and 1x audio. But it's SCSI and it was *really* cheap (used). -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 7 18: 3:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C135150FE for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:03:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 22944 invoked from network); 8 Nov 1999 02:03:26 -0000 Received: from userbh83.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.143.48) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 1999 02:03:26 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA02328; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 02:03:16 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 02:03:16 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Jackson's Findings of Fact Message-ID: <19991108020315.C316@marder-1> References: <199911072014.PAA36022@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <199911072014.PAA36022@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 03:14:35PM -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote, > > The entire 206-page document is available in HTML, PDF and WordPerfect > > format from . > > What?! Not available in M$ Word format?! http://download.microsoft.com/download/presspass/ms-findings.doc It's 851KB. Compare this with the versions at http://usvms.gpo.gov/ HTML - 398KB PDF - 329KB WP6 - 443KB At http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/trial/ M$ seem to only be able to find a single paragraph (408) in the whole document that could be seen to support M$'s marketing policy re IE. > -- > Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 8 4:48:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from netcop.nypd.org (netcop.nypd.org [209.3.38.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1711A151DF for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 04:48:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cdittric@nypd.org) Received: from lucy.nypd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netcop.nypd.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA01773 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:48:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from nypd.org (tower.ctac.nypd.org [192.168.0.17]) by lucy.nypd.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA11007 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:48:13 -0500 Message-ID: <3826C63A.C46CDDBE@nypd.org> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 07:46:50 -0500 From: Charles Dittrich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: (no subject) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MimeMultipartBoundary" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --MimeMultipartBoundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Should people dump microsoft stock now ? --MimeMultipartBoundary-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 8 9:59:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456B814DBC for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:59:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA89636; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:59:09 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:59:09 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Ben Cohen Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Student project ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Search the (-hackers or -current, can't recall off the top of my head) archive. phk and others have posted some kernel level ideas. One of teh medium/high level starting hacker projects should be useable. Sander On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Ben Cohen wrote: > Hi! > > I'm a student doing Computer Science at Cambridge University. This year I > have to do a project (to take about 8 months), and I wondered if you can > suggest anything. > > (I'd probably find writing tools for X, networking, TeX/LaTeX and system > admin stuff interesting, although not all ideas will be suitable for this > project. If someone suggests something that I find interesting, I might > do it sometime anyway, even if it isn't suitable;) > > There is an entry in the mailing list archives "Re: Idea for a small > project..." suggesting that a web page for FreeBSD-related project ideas > should be set up; unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have been set up. > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=618761+622552+/usr/local/www/db/text/1998/freebsd-hackers/19980920.freebsd-hackers > > Thanks, > > Ben. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 8 11:34:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8BE14F58 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:34:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from kilt.nothing-going-on.org (kilt.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.18]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA99474; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:21:26 GMT (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by kilt.nothing-going-on.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA90027; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 20:40:58 GMT (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 20:40:57 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Ben Cohen Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Student project ideas Message-ID: <19991107204057.A89993@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Ben Cohen on Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 05:51:11PM +0000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 05:51:11PM +0000, Ben Cohen wrote: > I'm a student doing Computer Science at Cambridge University. This year I > have to do a project (to take about 8 months), and I wondered if you can > suggest anything. Absolutely. > (I'd probably find writing tools for X, networking, TeX/LaTeX and system > admin stuff interesting, although not all ideas will be suitable for this > project. If someone suggests something that I find interesting, I might > do it sometime anyway, even if it isn't suitable;) The Documentation Project could use your help with TeX. Specifically, we have an application, called Jade, that we use to convert the FreeBSD documentation from it's source format, to TeX format, which we then process through TeX to produce PS and PDF versions of the FAQ, the Handbook, and so on. The problem is that Jade doesn't write raw TeX. Instead, it assumes that the TeX installation includes a macro package that provides a specific set of macro calls. The .tex file produced from Jade contains copious calls to these macros. At the moment, we have a macro package called JadeTeX that (partially) implements these calls. You can find it in the ports tree, as print/jadetex. However, the current maintainer (Sebastien Rahtz) is moving on to other things, and won't be maintaining it. The JadeTeX macros need a new maintainer. This might include scrapping them and starting again, or it might consist of updating the existing code to cope with its various shortcomings. If you're interested, I can also point you at a mailing list full of people who have ideas for things that JadeTeX should provide that it currently doesn't support. N -- If you want to imagine the future, imagine a tennis show stamping on a penguin's face forever. --- with apologies to George Orwell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 8 12:15:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orange.csi.cam.ac.uk (orange.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B8914BF8; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:14:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23 (helo=localhost) by orange.csi.cam.ac.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 3.03 #1) id 11kvBg-00014Y-00; Mon, 08 Nov 1999 20:14:48 +0000 Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:14:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: Nik Clayton Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Student project ideas In-Reply-To: <19991107204057.A89993@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: >On Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 05:51:11PM +0000, Ben Cohen wrote: >> I'm a student doing Computer Science at Cambridge University. This year I >> have to do a project (to take about 8 months), and I wondered if you can >> suggest anything. > >The Documentation Project could use your help with TeX. > >Specifically, we have an application, called Jade, that we use to convert >the FreeBSD documentation from it's source format, to TeX format, which we >then process through TeX to produce PS and PDF versions of the FAQ, the >Handbook, and so on. > >The problem is that Jade doesn't write raw TeX. Instead, it assumes that >the TeX installation includes a macro package that provides a specific >set of macro calls. The .tex file produced from Jade contains copious >calls to these macros. I think (to my supervisors) maintaining a set of macros wouldn't be acceptable;) but writing a SGML to TeX converter/compiler could be. I'll have to look at this in more detail... Thanks, Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 8 12:19:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3137A14C5A; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:19:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11239; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:44:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:44:21 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Ben Cohen Cc: Nik Clayton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Student project ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Ben Cohen wrote: > On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > > >On Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 05:51:11PM +0000, Ben Cohen wrote: > >> I'm a student doing Computer Science at Cambridge University. This year I > >> have to do a project (to take about 8 months), and I wondered if you can > >> suggest anything. > > > >The Documentation Project could use your help with TeX. > > > >Specifically, we have an application, called Jade, that we use to convert > >the FreeBSD documentation from it's source format, to TeX format, which we > >then process through TeX to produce PS and PDF versions of the FAQ, the > >Handbook, and so on. > > > >The problem is that Jade doesn't write raw TeX. Instead, it assumes that > >the TeX installation includes a macro package that provides a specific > >set of macro calls. The .tex file produced from Jade contains copious > >calls to these macros. > > I think (to my supervisors) maintaining a set of macros wouldn't be > acceptable;) but writing a SGML to TeX converter/compiler could be. > > I'll have to look at this in more detail... an offtopic suggestion: hrm, y'know a nice tk interface to writing/editing manpages would be nice, some people would be very interested in such a tool for let's say, documenting the kernel without having to futz with troff all that much... :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 8 14: 9:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9E714A13; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:09:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA20902; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:04:22 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:04:21 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Ben Cohen Cc: Nik Clayton , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Student project ideas Message-ID: <19991108220421.A20256@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19991107204057.A89993@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Ben Cohen on Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 08:14:48PM +0000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 08:14:48PM +0000, Ben Cohen wrote: > I think (to my supervisors) maintaining a set of macros wouldn't be > acceptable;) but writing a SGML to TeX converter/compiler could be. > > I'll have to look at this in more detail... If you need any more information about this, mailing lists to frequent, people to talk to, and so on, please let me know. N -- If you want to imagine the future, imagine a tennis show stamping on a penguin's face forever. --- with apologies to George Orwell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 8 21:18: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C1A014C5A for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:18:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrs@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (jrs@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA67530 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:18:01 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jrs@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:18:01 -0600 (CST) From: John Sconiers To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: licenses and legal etc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A few questions about gpl etc. If I base my work of a program off the work of another program that is GPL'd can I still use a BSD-like license?? Are there any exceptions etc. JOHN To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 8 21:21: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF1EB14C5A for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:21:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:21:04 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "John Sconiers" , Subject: RE: licenses and legal etc. Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:21:04 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf2a72$37fb2ef0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > A few questions about gpl etc. If I base my work of a program off the > work of another program that is GPL'd can I still use a BSD-like license?? > Are there any exceptions etc. > > JOHN Short answer: no. The GPL does not give you the right to distribute derived works under any other license, either more or less restrictive. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 5:12:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [205.129.32.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0AF14DA1 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 05:12:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from David_W_Gray@tvratings.com) Received: from nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.120]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25187 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:12:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:07:15 -0500 Message-ID: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B13033660AE@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David W." To: "'freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: RE: Re: Student project ideas Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:07:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Y'know, I'd like to see the output go to LaTeX. Why, you might well ask? In LaTeX, I can use a package called Vmargin to let me change the size & *shape* of a page. I like to print out pages 2up 2sided, which happens to neatly fit in the 'pc' sized binders you see all over the place. The typical way of doing this is to output postscript, and use postscript code to rotate, translate, and scale. This sucks. TeX fonts are *bitmaps* and don't scale. Also (more importantly to me), the aspect ratio (height to width) is notably different between an 8.5"x11" sheet (US letter) and the resulting 5.5"x8.5" half sheet. Also, the fonts that *do* scale (native PS), are half size, and I'm not getting any younger... I guess what I'm asking for, is whatever TeX style output format you wind up with, there be hooks in there so we can define the page appropriately. Heck, you need this already to deal with A4/US Letter differences... A doc sized for Letter doesn't look right on A4, and how many times have we had the LaserJet sitting there blinking "Feed A4"? > Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 20:40:57 +0000 > From: Nik Clayton > Subject: Re: Student project ideas > > On Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 05:51:11PM +0000, Ben Cohen wrote: > > I'm a student doing Computer Science at Cambridge > University. This year I > > have to do a project (to take about 8 months), and I > wondered if you can > > suggest anything. > > Absolutely. > > > (I'd probably find writing tools for X, networking, > TeX/LaTeX and system > > admin stuff interesting, although not all ideas will be > suitable for this > > project. If someone suggests something that I find > interesting, I might > > do it sometime anyway, even if it isn't suitable;) > > The Documentation Project could use your help with TeX. > > Specifically, we have an application, called Jade, that we > use to convert > the FreeBSD documentation from it's source format, to TeX > format, which we > then process through TeX to produce PS and PDF versions of > the FAQ, the > Handbook, and so on. > > The problem is that Jade doesn't write raw TeX. Instead, it > assumes that > the TeX installation includes a macro package that provides a specific > set of macro calls. The .tex file produced from Jade contains copious > calls to these macros. > > At the moment, we have a macro package called JadeTeX that (partially) > implements these calls. You can find it in the ports tree, as > print/jadetex. However, the current maintainer (Sebastien Rahtz) is > moving on to other things, and won't be maintaining it. > > The JadeTeX macros need a new maintainer. This might include > scrapping > them and starting again, or it might consist of updating the > existing code > to cope with its various shortcomings. If you're interested, > I can also > point you at a mailing list full of people who have ideas for > things that > JadeTeX should provide that it currently doesn't support. > > N > - -- > If you want to imagine the future, imagine a tennis show stamping > on a penguin's face forever. > --- with apologies to George Orwell > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 9:51:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF7B14C58 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:51:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:48:50 -0500 Message-ID: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 12:51:17 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Organization: Cornerstone Networks, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eng@cstone.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Quotation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Begin quote: CBSMW: In your current company, Encanto, you don't use Microsoft's software. You're using a Linux-like software, right? Frankenberg: We are using an open-source software product; it's Free BSD, as opposed to Linux. Free BSD is a particular flavor of the Unix operating system. It does an exceptionally good job. The operating system is distributed for free. Those that write enhancements to it are required to make those available to everyone. This has resulted in a significant amount of innovations and new capabilities. From: http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19991108/news/current/soapbox.htx?source=blq/yhoo&dist=yhoo (Courtesy of /.) I'm not even going to go into how annoying that question sounds, though..."Linux-like" indeed. SeanMike -- Sean Michael Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 Report spam with full headers to: spam-report@cstone.net - TINLC Happiness is mandatory. Are you happy, citizen? - _Paranoia_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 9:57:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8230C14C58 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:57:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA43716; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:57:23 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:57:23 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: eng@cstone.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation In-Reply-To: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > I'm not even going to go into how annoying that question sounds, > though..."Linux-like" indeed. I get things like that when I tell people I am a UNIX admin. "UNIX, that's like Linux, isn't it?" I usually just say no. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 10: 3:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8710214C58 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:03:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11lFc4-000Fxi-00; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:03:24 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA18906; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:03:24 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:03:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: eng@cstone.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation In-Reply-To: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: >Begin quote: >CBSMW: In your current company, Encanto, you don't use Microsoft's >software. You're using a Linux-like software, right? > >Frankenberg: We are using an open-source software product; it's Free >BSD, as opposed to Linux. Free BSD is a particular flavor of the Unix >operating system. It does an exceptionally good job. The operating >system is distributed for free. Those that write enhancements to it are >required to make those available to everyone. This has resulted in a Really? FBSD isn't GPL, it's BSD license. Can't you keep improvements to yourself if you want? >significant amount of innovations and new capabilities. -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 10: 5:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425E214C58 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:05:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA45171; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:04:38 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:04:38 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Sean Michael Whipkey , eng@cstone.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Really? FBSD isn't GPL, it's BSD license. Can't you keep improvements to > yourself if you want? Yes, of course. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 10: 6:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21DF715155 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:06:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11lFfN-000GRE-00; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:06:49 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA18950; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:06:49 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:06:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: David Scheidt Cc: Sean Michael Whipkey , eng@cstone.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So that's an inaccuracy, then. Another case of misinformation. -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 10: 7:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7695D1524C for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:07:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26766; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:07:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991109105207.04298ae0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:54:17 -0700 To: Sean Michael Whipkey , eng@cstone.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation In-Reply-To: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What's of greater concern is that the article incorrectly denies a key distinction between FreeBSD and Linux. It says that those who enhance FreeBSD are "required" to make them available to everyone. This is not true, of course, and Frankenberg's statement serves to blur the important differences between the BSD license and the GPL. --Brett At 12:51 PM 11/9/1999 -0500, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: >Begin quote: >CBSMW: In your current company, Encanto, you don't use Microsoft's >software. You're using a Linux-like software, right? > >Frankenberg: We are using an open-source software product; it's Free >BSD, as opposed to Linux. Free BSD is a particular flavor of the Unix >operating system. It does an exceptionally good job. The operating >system is distributed for free. Those that write enhancements to it are >required to make those available to everyone. This has resulted in a >significant amount of innovations and new capabilities. > >From: >http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19991108/news/current/soapbox.htx?source=blq/yhoo&dist=yhoo > >(Courtesy of /.) > >I'm not even going to go into how annoying that question sounds, >though..."Linux-like" indeed. > >SeanMike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 10: 9: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B17715349 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:08:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Received: from mojave.sitaranetworks.com ([199.103.141.157]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA11505; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 04:38:31 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Message-ID: <19991109130755.41940@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:07:55 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Sean Michael Whipkey , eng@cstone.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net>; from Sean Michael Whipkey on Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 12:51:17PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 9 November 1999 at 12:51:17 -0500, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > Begin quote: > CBSMW: In your current company, Encanto, you don't use Microsoft's > software. You're using a Linux-like software, right? > > Frankenberg: We are using an open-source software product; it's Free > BSD, as opposed to Linux. Free BSD is a particular flavor of the Unix > operating system. It does an exceptionally good job. The operating > system is distributed for free. Those that write enhancements to it are > required to make those available to everyone. This has resulted in a > significant amount of innovations and new capabilities. > > From: > http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19991108/news/current/soapbox.htx?source=blq/yhoo&dist=yhoo > > (Courtesy of /.) > > I'm not even going to go into how annoying that question sounds, > though..."Linux-like" indeed. That's not the annoying part. In the overall scheme of things, FreeBSD *is* quite Linux-like. But you are not required to make the enhancements available to everybody. That the big difference that he appears not to understand. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 10:13:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7425714A26 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:13:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 8079 invoked from network); 9 Nov 1999 18:13:27 -0000 Received: from userah05.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.132.190) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 1999 18:13:27 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA01030; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:12:59 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:12:58 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: "Gray, David W." Cc: "'freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: Re: Re: Student project ideas Message-ID: <19991109181258.A316@marder-1> References: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B13033660AE@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B13033660AE@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 08:07:13AM -0500, Gray, David W. wrote: > Y'know, I'd like to see the output go to LaTeX. Why, you might > well ask? In LaTeX, I can use a package called Vmargin to let me > change the size & *shape* of a page. I like to print out pages > 2up 2sided, which happens to neatly fit in the 'pc' sized binders > you see all over the place. The typical way of doing this is to > output postscript, and use postscript code to rotate, translate, and > scale. This sucks. TeX fonts are *bitmaps* and don't scale. Also > (more importantly to me), the aspect ratio (height to width) is > notably different between an 8.5"x11" sheet (US letter) and the > resulting 5.5"x8.5" half sheet. That's one advantage the ISO A-series has; the aspect ratio is *always* 0.707 (root 2). The short edge of each size is the same as the long edge of the next smallest size. -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 10:16:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [205.129.32.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6517E14BC2 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:16:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from David_W_Gray@tvratings.com) Received: from nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.120]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21202; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:15:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:10:39 -0500 Message-ID: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B13033660B2@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David W." To: "'Mark Ovens'" , "Gray, David W." Cc: "'freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: RE: Re: Student project ideas Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:10:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeah. Still doesn't help the "fonts don't scale/too damn small" problem! :) > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Ovens [mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org] > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 1:13 PM > To: Gray, David W. > Cc: 'freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG' > Subject: Re: Re: Student project ideas > > > On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 08:07:13AM -0500, Gray, David W. wrote: > > Y'know, I'd like to see the output go to LaTeX. Why, you might > > well ask? In LaTeX, I can use a package called Vmargin to let me > > change the size & *shape* of a page. I like to print out pages > > 2up 2sided, which happens to neatly fit in the 'pc' sized binders > > you see all over the place. The typical way of doing this is to > > output postscript, and use postscript code to rotate, translate, and > > scale. This sucks. TeX fonts are *bitmaps* and don't scale. Also > > (more importantly to me), the aspect ratio (height to width) is > > notably different between an 8.5"x11" sheet (US letter) and the > > resulting 5.5"x8.5" half sheet. > > That's one advantage the ISO A-series has; the aspect ratio is > *always* 0.707 (root 2). The short edge of each size is the same > as the long edge of the next smallest size. > > -- > STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. > OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. > ________________________________________________________________ > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 10:34:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FCC115068 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:34:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:34:19 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Sean Michael Whipkey" , , Subject: RE: FreeBSD Quotation Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:34:19 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01bf2ae1$08b6a920$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Frankenberg: We are using an open-source software product; it's Free > BSD, as opposed to Linux. Free BSD is a particular flavor of the Unix > operating system. It does an exceptionally good job. The operating > system is distributed for free. Those that write enhancements to it are ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > required to make those available to everyone. This has resulted in a ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > significant amount of innovations and new capabilities. Sadly, he misses the whole point of BSD. The beauty of it is that you can make enhancements to it without anyone pointing a gun to your head. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 11:55:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 2E8041527C; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AFA61CD625; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:55:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:55:27 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Mike Pritchard Cc: Lawrence Sica , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Port 137 hitting my server In-Reply-To: <19991109060320.B7018@mppsystems.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Mike Pritchard wrote: > I've noticed a lot of these types of hits after playing around > with alladvantage.com (get paid to surf the web!). I have no idea > what they are looking for. At least from that particular web site, > I haven't seen any real pattern to it, except that I see more of them > after making use of their software. The dilbert.com website used to give me reverse port 80 scans (I think it was port 80)..my best guess was that it was either some kind of demographic profiling from an advertiser or a spamming business run by dogbert looking for addresses. It only seemed to do it once for each of the (dynamic) IP addresses I got from my ISP, so I never got around to setting up a webserver to see what it was looking for. Kris ---- Cthulhu for President! For when you're tired of choosing the _lesser_ of two evils.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 11:57:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A7D1527C for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:57:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA63752; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:55:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:55:40 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Sean Michael Whipkey , eng@cstone.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > So that's an inaccuracy, then. Another case of misinformation. A fairly common one, too. I don't know, and don't know that anyoe does, how many people make changes to the OS and don't contribute them back. It is hard to keep track, since the license allows you not to tell anyone. There are lots of embeded systems that use one of the free BSDs, that you wouldn't know about. Ricoh was recently named here for using FreeBSD in one of their copiers, for instance. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 12: 2: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bigphred.greycat.com (bigphred.greycat.com [207.173.133.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A07A14D9F for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:02:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dann@bigphred.greycat.com) Received: (from dann@localhost) by bigphred.greycat.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA07438 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:02:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dann) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:02:13 -0800 From: Dann Lunsford To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation Message-ID: <19991109120213.A7365@greycat.com> References: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net> <000a01bf2ae1$08b6a920$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <000a01bf2ae1$08b6a920$021d85d1@youwant.to> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 10:34:19AM -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > system is distributed for free. Those that write enhancements to it are > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > required to make those available to everyone. This has resulted in a > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Sadly, he misses the whole point of BSD. The beauty of it is that you can > make enhancements to it without anyone pointing a gun to your head. Hmm. I think that Frankenburg would be unlikely to make such a mistake, given his history. Maybe the reporter dropped a "not" between the "are" and the "required". Wouldn't be the first time something like that happened... Anybody got Frankenburg's e-mail? Maybe we should ask him. Dann L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 12:18:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (ith1-322.twcny.rr.com [24.24.11.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0949A14C94 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:18:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc26@tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net) Received: (from cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA33058; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:17:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc26) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:17:13 -0500 From: Cliff Crawford To: Dann Lunsford Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation Message-ID: <19991109151713.B32826@cornell.edu> Reply-To: cjc26@cornell.edu References: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net> <000a01bf2ae1$08b6a920$021d85d1@youwant.to> <19991109120213.A7365@greycat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <19991109120213.A7365@greycat.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dann Lunsford menulis: > On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 10:34:19AM -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > > system is distributed for free. Those that write enhancements to it are > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > required to make those available to everyone. This has resulted in a > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Sadly, he misses the whole point of BSD. The beauty of it is that you can > > make enhancements to it without anyone pointing a gun to your head. > > Hmm. I think that Frankenburg would be unlikely to make such a mistake, given > his history. Maybe the reporter dropped a "not" between the "are" and the > "required". Wouldn't be the first time something like that happened... > Anybody got Frankenburg's e-mail? Maybe we should ask him. The sentence following is "This has resulted in a significant amount of innovations and new capabilites", which wouldn't make sense in that context (him saying that those who write enhancements are NOT required to make them available to everyone). -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- Shall she hear the lion's roar? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 12:19:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8063614C94; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:19:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA68385; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:19:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:19:17 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Mike Pritchard , Lawrence Sica , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Port 137 hitting my server In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Mike Pritchard wrote: > > > I've noticed a lot of these types of hits after playing around > > with alladvantage.com (get paid to surf the web!). I have no idea > > what they are looking for. At least from that particular web site, > > I haven't seen any real pattern to it, except that I see more of them > > after making use of their software. > > The dilbert.com website used to give me reverse port 80 scans (I think it > was port 80)..my best guess was that it was either some kind of > demographic profiling from an advertiser or a spamming business run by > dogbert looking for addresses. The doubleclick people used to do something that looked suspicious, the claimed purpose of which was to figure out which of their servers you were closest to, in order to sell you better. I don't remember what it is, and since *.doubleclick.net looks up as 127.0.0.1 from here, I can't be bothered to check. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 12:26:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 71DDC15148 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:26:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 1849 invoked from network); 9 Nov 1999 20:26:22 -0000 Received: from useraq79.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.136.139) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 1999 20:26:22 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA00455; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:25:57 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:25:57 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: "Gray, David W." Cc: "'freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: Re: Re: Student project ideas Message-ID: <19991109202556.A316@marder-1> References: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B13033660B2@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B13033660B2@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 01:10:38PM -0500, Gray, David W. wrote: > Yeah. Still doesn't help the "fonts don't scale/too damn small" problem! :) > True, but if you do use scalable fonts printing 2up doesn't require re-formatting of the page, just scaling it. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Ovens [mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 1:13 PM > > To: Gray, David W. > > Cc: 'freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG' > > Subject: Re: Re: Student project ideas > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 08:07:13AM -0500, Gray, David W. wrote: > > > Y'know, I'd like to see the output go to LaTeX. Why, you might > > > well ask? In LaTeX, I can use a package called Vmargin to let me > > > change the size & *shape* of a page. I like to print out pages > > > 2up 2sided, which happens to neatly fit in the 'pc' sized binders > > > you see all over the place. The typical way of doing this is to > > > output postscript, and use postscript code to rotate, translate, and > > > scale. This sucks. TeX fonts are *bitmaps* and don't scale. Also > > > (more importantly to me), the aspect ratio (height to width) is > > > notably different between an 8.5"x11" sheet (US letter) and the > > > resulting 5.5"x8.5" half sheet. > > > > That's one advantage the ISO A-series has; the aspect ratio is > > *always* 0.707 (root 2). The short edge of each size is the same > > as the long edge of the next smallest size. > > > > -- > > STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. > > OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. > > ________________________________________________________________ > > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 12:32: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [205.129.32.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8135F14C94 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:32:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from David_W_Gray@tvratings.com) Received: from nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.120]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02711; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:26:04 -0500 Message-ID: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B13033660B6@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David W." To: "'Mark Ovens'" Cc: "'freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: RE: Re: Student project ideas Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:15:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Scaling a 10pt font by 1/2 gives a 5 pt. font - I *can* read that - but not willingly. I WANT to be able to reformat, so I can keep a reasonable font size in a smaller page... > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Ovens [mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org] > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 3:26 PM > To: Gray, David W. > Cc: 'freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG' > Subject: Re: Re: Student project ideas > > > On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 01:10:38PM -0500, Gray, David W. wrote: > > Yeah. Still doesn't help the "fonts don't scale/too damn > small" problem! :) > > > > True, but if you do use scalable fonts printing 2up doesn't require > re-formatting of the page, just scaling it. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mark Ovens [mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org] > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 1:13 PM > > > To: Gray, David W. > > > Cc: 'freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG' > > > Subject: Re: Re: Student project ideas > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 08:07:13AM -0500, Gray, David W. wrote: > > > > Y'know, I'd like to see the output go to LaTeX. Why, you might > > > > well ask? In LaTeX, I can use a package called Vmargin to let me > > > > change the size & *shape* of a page. I like to print out pages > > > > 2up 2sided, which happens to neatly fit in the 'pc' > sized binders > > > > you see all over the place. The typical way of doing this is to > > > > output postscript, and use postscript code to rotate, > translate, and > > > > scale. This sucks. TeX fonts are *bitmaps* and don't scale. Also > > > > (more importantly to me), the aspect ratio (height to width) is > > > > notably different between an 8.5"x11" sheet (US letter) and the > > > > resulting 5.5"x8.5" half sheet. > > > > > > That's one advantage the ISO A-series has; the aspect ratio is > > > *always* 0.707 (root 2). The short edge of each size is the same > > > as the long edge of the next smallest size. > > > > > > -- > > > STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. > > > OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > > > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > > > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. > OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. > ________________________________________________________________ > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 12:40: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6229715335 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:39:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:39:45 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "David Scheidt" , "Kris Kennaway" Cc: "Mike Pritchard" , "Lawrence Sica" , Subject: RE: Port 137 hitting my server Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:39:45 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01bf2af2$8edfd830$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Usually a port 137 hit means one of two things: 1) Someone is seeing if your server is misconfigured with shared without passwords. 2) Someone accidentally typed in your server name in an Explorer window that caused it to check for shares instead of for web pages. DS > On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Mike Pritchard wrote: > > > > > I've noticed a lot of these types of hits after playing around > > > with alladvantage.com (get paid to surf the web!). I have no idea > > > what they are looking for. At least from that particular web site, > > > I haven't seen any real pattern to it, except that I see more of them > > > after making use of their software. > > > > The dilbert.com website used to give me reverse port 80 scans > (I think it > > was port 80)..my best guess was that it was either some kind of > > demographic profiling from an advertiser or a spamming business run by > > dogbert looking for addresses. > > The doubleclick people used to do something that looked suspicious, the > claimed purpose of which was to figure out which of their servers you were > closest to, in order to sell you better. I don't remember what it is, and > since *.doubleclick.net looks up as 127.0.0.1 from here, I can't > be bothered > to check. > > David Scheidt > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 13: 8:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bigphred.greycat.com (bigphred.greycat.com [207.173.133.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275B915127 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:08:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dann@bigphred.greycat.com) Received: (from dann@localhost) by bigphred.greycat.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA07666 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:08:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dann) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:08:47 -0800 From: Dann Lunsford To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation Message-ID: <19991109130847.A7609@greycat.com> References: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net> <000a01bf2ae1$08b6a920$021d85d1@youwant.to> <19991109120213.A7365@greycat.com> <19991109151713.B32826@cornell.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991109151713.B32826@cornell.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 03:17:13PM -0500, Cliff Crawford wrote: > * Dann Lunsford menulis: > > On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 10:34:19AM -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > system is distributed for free. Those that write enhancements to it are > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > required to make those available to everyone. This has resulted in a > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > Sadly, he misses the whole point of BSD. The beauty of it is that you can > > > make enhancements to it without anyone pointing a gun to your head. > > > > Hmm. I think that Frankenburg would be unlikely to make such a mistake, given > > his history. Maybe the reporter dropped a "not" between the "are" and the > > "required". Wouldn't be the first time something like that happened... > > Anybody got Frankenburg's e-mail? Maybe we should ask him. > > The sentence following is "This has resulted in a significant amount of > innovations and new capabilites", which wouldn't make sense in that > context (him saying that those who write enhancements are NOT required > to make them available to everyone). Point. I was thinking along the lines of a commercial endeavor not being required to fold back enhancements they've made, which seemed to make more sense in the context of the quotation (why FreeBSD for a commercial enterprise?). But you could be right, probably are. EEEP! Just realized I misspelled Frankeberg's name twice. Apologies :-). Dann L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 13:50:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F041516A for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:49:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a029.otenet.gr [195.167.115.29]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA19785 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:49:57 +0200 (EET) Received: (qmail 19587 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Nov 1999 14:34:31 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Student project ideas References: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B13033660AE@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> From: Giorgos Keramidas Date: 09 Nov 1999 16:34:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Gray, David W."'s message of "Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:07:13 -0500" Message-ID: <86hfiv68eg.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Lines: 34 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "20 Minutes to Nikko" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gray, David W." writes: > Y'know, I'd like to see the output go to LaTeX. Why, you might well > ask? In LaTeX, I can use a package called Vmargin to let me change the > size & *shape* of a page. I like to print out pages 2up 2sided, which > happens to neatly fit in the 'pc' sized binders you see all over the > place. The typical way of doing this is to output postscript, and use > postscript code to rotate, translate, and scale. This sucks. TeX fonts > are *bitmaps* and don't scale. Also (more importantly to me), the > aspect ratio (height to width) is notably different between an > 8.5"x11" sheet (US letter) and the resulting 5.5"x8.5" half > sheet. Also, the fonts that *do* scale (native PS), are half size, and > I'm not getting any younger... If you don't really mind rolling your own macros here, the reference cards for some of the GNU programs, usually distributed with the source of the program, can be good examples of two-column printing with TeX. However, using plain TeX can be a pain, if one does not have the proper macros and some experience with it. Making the JadeTeX macros support two-column printing (two-sided can easily handled by dvips AFAIK) seems like a nice thing to do. Then all that neat FreeBSD DocProj stuff can be printed using the usual commands, and have that output style that you like so much :) As for the bitmap fonts of TeX, yes they don't scale nicely, but using the PSNFSS font selection scheme, you can use Type-1 fonts on printed output which imho give better results for hardcopies. Knuth's work on MetaFont is a thing to admire, but this does not make the default TeX fonts prettier than, say, Adobe's ps-fonts. -- Giorgos Keramidas, "What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing." [Aristotle] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 14: 2:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from umd5.umd.edu (umd5.umd.edu [128.8.10.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CDB61516A for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:01:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from poirot.umd.edu (poirot.umd.edu [128.8.10.129]) by umd5.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16229; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:01:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by poirot.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA20605; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:01:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: poirot.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:01:55 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@poirot.umd.edu To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: eng@cstone.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation In-Reply-To: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > system is distributed for free. Those that write enhancements to it are > required to make those available to everyone. This has resulted in a Did anyone else takes this to mean internally at his company he forces employees to do this? Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 16: 6:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4975D15182 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:06:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA42148; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:10:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199911100010.TAA42148@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: licenses and legal etc. In-Reply-To: <000001bf2a72$37fb2ef0$021d85d1@youwant.to> from David Schwartz at "Nov 8, 1999 09:21:04 pm" To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:10:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: jrs@enteract.com (John Sconiers), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote, [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > > A few questions about gpl etc. If I base my work of a program off the > > work of another program that is GPL'd can I still use a BSD-like license?? > > Are there any exceptions etc. > > > > JOHN > > Short answer: no. > > The GPL does not give you the right to distribute derived works under any > other license, either more or less restrictive. If you write your code totally from scratch and only use the _concept_ of the original code, you are probably OK. A copyright is not a patent. The algorithm and implementation cannot be copyrighted. So, say, if you look at the code and see how it was done, but then write your own code from scratch (no copying parts, no "paraphrasing" code by just changing varaible names, etc.), you are probably OK... but it is a point that is up for fairly subjective review. Not recommended if there is another way. And I'm not a lawyer, yada-yada. The usual disclaimers. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 16:22: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D8A1518B for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:21:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA09909; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:53:41 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:53:40 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Brett Glass Cc: Sean Michael Whipkey , eng@cstone.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation Message-ID: <19991109235340.A9665@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net> <4.2.0.58.19991109105207.04298ae0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991109105207.04298ae0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 10:54:17AM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 10:54:17AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > What's of greater concern is that the article incorrectly denies a key > distinction between FreeBSD and Linux. It says that those who enhance > FreeBSD are "required" to make them available to everyone. This is > not true, of course, and Frankenberg's statement serves to blur > the important differences between the BSD license and the GPL. I did try to cover this in the extended commentary I wrote in the intro to the Slashdot article. It sounds like a lot of people didn't bother to read it. N -- If you want to imagine the future, imagine a tennis show stamping on a penguin's face forever. --- with apologies to George Orwell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 18:36:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F6614A00 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:36:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dougc1@erols.com) Received: from doug (216-164-164-125.s125.tnt6.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com [216.164.164.125]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA00314 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:36:27 -0500 (EST) From: "Doug" To: Subject: FreeBSD Jackets Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:35:48 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, freebsdmall has those FreeBSD jackets from the con now, but does any have pictures of them I can show a friend that wants one? -Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 18:51:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from limbo.cdrom.com (limbo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9689714A23 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:51:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@limbo.cdrom.com) Received: (from jim@localhost) by limbo.cdrom.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) id dAA2pBY48364; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:51:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:51:11 -0800 From: Jim Mock To: Doug Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Jackets Message-ID: <19991109185111.A48320@limbo.cdrom.com> Reply-To: jim@cdrom.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1i In-Reply-To: ; from dougc1@erols.com on Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 09:35:48PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 09 Nov 1999 at 21:35:48 -0500, Doug wrote: > Well, freebsdmall has those FreeBSD jackets from the con now, but > does any have pictures of them I can show a friend that wants one? Here's one with Jordan wearing it.. http://www.freebsd.org/~billf/freebsdcon/wednesday/ASC00029.jpeg - jim -- - jim mock - walnut creek cdrom/freebsd test labs - jim@cdrom.com - - phone: 925.691.2800 x3814 - fax: 925.674.0821 - jim@FreeBSD.org - - freebsdzine - http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 21:16: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1980514DE5 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:16:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22746 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:15:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA26120 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:16:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA26116 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:16:00 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac10.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:16:00 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: OpenSSH Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OpenSSH totally rules and seems a whole lot faster than ssh and even telnet! Has anyone else noticed this? Thanks, Jamie -- Jamie Howard To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 9 22:48: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D6D14C2C; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:47:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [204.68.178.39] (helo=softweyr.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 11lRXy-0005Os-00; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:47:58 -0700 Message-ID: <38291519.257A4B9A@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 23:47:53 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Brian Feldman , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/security/openssh - Imported sources References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > I guess we'll know when and if the fibbies show up to drag Brian off in > > chains. We should make sure he has a web cam, just in case. ;^) > > Brian's a minor, we'll just keep letting him make these questionable > changes. I doubt the commerce department even has guidelines for > charging a youth. :> No, but the NSA probably has several nice, deep holes to drop him in. ;^) Brian, how far from your house to Fort Belvior? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 7:10:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA2F14E1F for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:10:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnmpurser@home.com) Received: from C37259A ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991110151032.UDBV13750.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@C37259A>; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:10:32 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: "'Greg Lehey'" , "'Sean Michael Whipkey'" , , Subject: RE: FreeBSD Quotation Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:09:09 -0800 Message-ID: <000201bf2b8d$8a81aac0$40390918@home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19991109130755.41940@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So, do we have anyone who wants to contact CBS and offer to walk them through FreeBSD's place in the Open Source universe or do we just sit and complain about how "They" got it wrong again? John Purser -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Greg Lehey Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 10:08 AM To: Sean Michael Whipkey; eng@cstone.net; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation On Tuesday, 9 November 1999 at 12:51:17 -0500, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > Begin quote: > CBSMW: In your current company, Encanto, you don't use Microsoft's > software. You're using a Linux-like software, right? > > Frankenberg: We are using an open-source software product; it's Free > BSD, as opposed to Linux. Free BSD is a particular flavor of the Unix > operating system. It does an exceptionally good job. The operating > system is distributed for free. Those that write enhancements to it are > required to make those available to everyone. This has resulted in a > significant amount of innovations and new capabilities. > > From: > http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19991108/news/current/soapbox.htx?source= blq/yhoo&dist=yhoo > > (Courtesy of /.) > > I'm not even going to go into how annoying that question sounds, > though..."Linux-like" indeed. That's not the annoying part. In the overall scheme of things, FreeBSD *is* quite Linux-like. But you are not required to make the enhancements available to everybody. That the big difference that he appears not to understand. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 7:56: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8283214DDA for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:55:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Received: from mojave.sitaranetworks.com (mojave.sitaranetworks.com [199.103.141.157]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA12677; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 02:25:37 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Message-ID: <19991110105504.45340@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:55:04 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: johnmpurser@home.com, Sean Michael Whipkey , eng@cstone.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <19991109130755.41940@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> <000201bf2b8d$8a81aac0$40390918@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <000201bf2b8d$8a81aac0$40390918@home>; from John Purser on Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 07:09:09AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] On Wednesday, 10 November 1999 at 7:09:09 -0800, John Purser wrote: > On Tuesday, November 09, 1999 10:08 AM, Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Tuesday, 9 November 1999 at 12:51:17 -0500, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: >>> Begin quote: >>> CBSMW: In your current company, Encanto, you don't use Microsoft's >>> software. You're using a Linux-like software, right? >>> >>> Frankenberg: We are using an open-source software product; it's Free >>> BSD, as opposed to Linux. Free BSD is a particular flavor of the Unix >>> operating system. It does an exceptionally good job. The operating >>> system is distributed for free. Those that write enhancements to it are >>> required to make those available to everyone. This has resulted in a >>> significant amount of innovations and new capabilities. >>> >>> From: >>> >> http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19991108/news/current/soapbox.htx?source=blq/yhoo&dist=yhoo >>> >>> (Courtesy of /.) >>> >>> I'm not even going to go into how annoying that question sounds, >>> though..."Linux-like" indeed. >> >> That's not the annoying part. In the overall scheme of things, >> FreeBSD *is* quite Linux-like. But you are not required to make the >> enhancements available to everybody. That the big difference that he >> appears not to understand. > > So, do we have anyone who wants to contact CBS and offer to walk them > through FreeBSD's place in the Open Source universe or do we just sit and > complain about how "They" got it wrong again? It's not as simple as that. I don't believe this one was CBS' mistake, I thin that the quote was correct. You're right, somebody should take it up with the originator of the statement (the president of Encanto IIRC), but I don't expect it to change much. It's unlikely that he and CBS will agree to change the report. Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 8:22:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A2914BC3 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:22:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnmpurser@home.com) Received: from C37259A ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19991110162225.UUAQ13750.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@C37259A>; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:22:25 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: "'Greg Lehey'" , "'Sean Michael Whipkey'" , , Subject: RE: FreeBSD Quotation Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:21:01 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01bf2b97$95137680$40390918@home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19991110105504.45340@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Greg Lehey > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 7:55 AM > To: johnmpurser@home.com; Sean Michael Whipkey; eng@cstone.net; > freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation > > > [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] > > On Wednesday, 10 November 1999 at 7:09:09 -0800, John Purser wrote: > > On Tuesday, November 09, 1999 10:08 AM, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> > >> On Tuesday, 9 November 1999 at 12:51:17 -0500, Sean > Michael Whipkey wrote: > >>> Begin quote: > >>> CBSMW: In your current company, Encanto, you don't use Microsoft's > >>> software. You're using a Linux-like software, right? > >>> > >>> Frankenberg: We are using an open-source software > product; it's Free > >>> BSD, as opposed to Linux. Free BSD is a particular flavor > of the Unix > >>> operating system. It does an exceptionally good job. The operating > >>> system is distributed for free. Those that write > enhancements to it are > >>> required to make those available to everyone. This has > resulted in a > >>> significant amount of innovations and new capabilities. > >>> > >>> From: > >>> > >> > http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19991108/news/current/soapb ox.htx?source=blq/yhoo&dist=yhoo >>> >>> (Courtesy of /.) >>> >>> I'm not even going to go into how annoying that question sounds, >>> though..."Linux-like" indeed. >> >> That's not the annoying part. In the overall scheme of things, >> FreeBSD *is* quite Linux-like. But you are not required to make the >> enhancements available to everybody. That the big difference that he >> appears not to understand. > > So, do we have anyone who wants to contact CBS and offer to walk them > through FreeBSD's place in the Open Source universe or do we just sit and > complain about how "They" got it wrong again? It's not as simple as that. I don't believe this one was CBS' mistake, I thin that the quote was correct. You're right, somebody should take it up with the originator of the statement (the president of Encanto IIRC), but I don't expect it to change much. It's unlikely that he and CBS will agree to change the report. Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers I agree that we won't be able to amend or correct the article. What I'm proposing is that someone who knows what the hell they're talking about (!=me) could contact the author (or his/her editor), let him know that there were some misleading and/or factually incorrect statements, and offer themselves as a resource, either for a follow up article on FreeBSD or as background on the BSD - FreeNix community. I see this as a way to alert the writer/editor that there were some accuracy issues in the article, and to encourage them to contact someone familiar with FreeBSD when the topic comes up again. I know this one act won't amount to much, but the practice could over time do a lot to increase our visibility and help get "our truth" out there. Just a suggestion and one I'm poorly situated to help with. But I've seen a lot of mail on these lists that mentioned an article in the first letter and then had dozens on replies pointing out weaknesses in the article with very few that mentioned any corrective action taken. This seems to me to be an excellent opportunity for Advocacy to tie another thread to an opinion maker. John Purser To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 8:50:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B007B1537C for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:50:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA84210 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:50:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:50:24 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: November BAFUG San Francisco Meeting Message-ID: <19991110085024.B84155@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- San Francisco BAFUG -- (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) November 1999 Meeting The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, November 11th. This months meeting will be held at Whistle's corp. office in Foster City. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda : ==> There is nor scheduled speaker for this meeting. ==> Josef Grosch and Nicole Harrington will talk about BAFUG's plans for the Install-A-Thon at the Cow Palace on November 13th. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location : This months meeting will be held at Whistle Communications. Whistle is located at 110 Marsh Dr. in Foster City. There is plenty parking in their lot. Time : The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions : By CalTrain : Exit at the downtown San Mateo station, and walk several miles east on Third Avenue to the Marsh Drive intersection. Alternatively, exit at the Bay Meadows station and take the SanTrans Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus to the Bridgepoint Shopping Center stop and walk 1/4 mile north on Mariner's Island Blvd. to Third Avenue, turning right one block to Marsh Drive. By SamTrans : The Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus line's Bridgepoint Shopping Center terminus is a few blocks from Whistle Communications. By Car : From the South Bay and Peninsula : Take 101 North towards San Francisco, From US-101 northbound, take CA-92 eastbound a mile to the Foster City Blvd., turning left (east) at the end of the ramp onto Metro Center Blvd. Go about a block and turn left (north-east) onto Foster City Blvd. Go about five blocks to the street's end, turning left (north) onto Third Avenue. Go about a block to turn left (west) at the first traffic light, onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. From the East Bay : From CA-92/Hayward, cross the San Mateo Bridge and take the first exit Foster City Blvd., curving right at the end of the ramp to a left (north-east) turn onto Foster City Blvd. Then process as described above for US-101 northbound. From the North Bay and San Francisco : From US-101 southbound, exit eastbound onto Third Avenue proceeding several miles, past the Mariner's Island Blvd. intersection, to turn right (west) onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. WWW info : More info can be found at the following URLs Whistle Communications - http://www.whistle.com BAFUG - http://www.bafug.org Contact : Please contact either Nicole Harrington or Josef Grosch on or before November 11th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 8:56: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C62F153E3 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA84237 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:55:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:55:53 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Head count for BAFUG San Francisco meeting Message-ID: <19991110085553.D84155@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday 5 pm it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 8:59: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92F414DED for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:58:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 11lb5D-0000NZ-00; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:58:55 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA35652 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:58:55 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:58:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: next FBSD release... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Any word on what we might see in release 3.4? All we've been hearing about is all the cool stuff in 4.0, but it looks like there will be one before that.... -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 12:19: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from logisticsoftware.co.nz (logisticsoftware.co.nz [202.37.163.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA5D153CC for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:16:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@logisticsoftware.co.nz) Received: from jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz (jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz [10.1.3.1]) by logisticsoftware.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10686 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:16:05 +1300 (NZDT) Received: (from jonc@localhost) by jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA28662 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:16:05 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from jonc) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:16:05 +1300 From: Jonathan Chen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... Message-ID: <19991111091605.A28643@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Check out: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/09/seinfeld.virus.ap/index.html Looks like the "Good Times" virus is now a definite possiblity, thanks to Microsoft. Jonathan Chen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 12:29: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from limbo.cdrom.com (limbo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2603415337 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:28:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@limbo.cdrom.com) Received: (from jim@localhost) by limbo.cdrom.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) id dAAKR4Y55354; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:27:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:27:04 -0800 From: Jim Mock To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: next FBSD release... Message-ID: <19991110122704.A55317@limbo.cdrom.com> Reply-To: jim@cdrom.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 04:58:55PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 at 16:58:55 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Any word on what we might see in release 3.4? All we've been > hearing about is all the cool stuff in 4.0, but it looks like there > will be one before that.... Sometime next month is a reasonable timeframe :-) - jim -- - jim mock - walnut creek cdrom/freebsd test labs - jim@cdrom.com - - phone: 925.691.2800 x3814 - fax: 925.674.0821 - jim@FreeBSD.org - - freebsdzine - http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 12:31:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DC7153F2 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:31:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11leOX-000ETC-00; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:31:05 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA37627; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:31:05 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:31:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: jim@cdrom.com Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: next FBSD release... In-Reply-To: <19991110122704.A55317@limbo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Jim Mock wrote: >On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 at 16:58:55 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >> Any word on what we might see in release 3.4? All we've been >> hearing about is all the cool stuff in 4.0, but it looks like there >> will be one before that.... > >Sometime next month is a reasonable timeframe :-) > >- jim For the release to come out or to find out what will be in it? ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 12:38:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A33151EE for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:37:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Received: from mojave.sitaranetworks.com (mojave.sitaranetworks.com [199.103.141.157]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA12939; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:07:35 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Message-ID: <19991110153657.22447@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:36:57 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <19991111091605.A28643@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <19991111091605.A28643@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz>; from Jonathan Chen on Thu, Nov 11, 1999 at 09:16:05AM +1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 11 November 1999 at 9:16:05 +1300, Jonathan Chen wrote: > Check out: > > http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/09/seinfeld.virus.ap/index.html > > Looks like the "Good Times" virus is now a definite possiblity, thanks > to Microsoft. Right, I heard that on the news this morning. Does anybody know how it works? Does anybody have one they can send me? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 12:39:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from limbo.cdrom.com (limbo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E964215407 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:39:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@limbo.cdrom.com) Received: (from jim@localhost) by limbo.cdrom.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) id dAAKbE355442; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:37:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:37:14 -0800 From: Jim Mock To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: next FBSD release... Message-ID: <19991110123713.B55317@limbo.cdrom.com> Reply-To: jim@cdrom.com References: <19991110122704.A55317@limbo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 08:31:05PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 at 20:31:05 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Jim Mock wrote: > > >On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 at 16:58:55 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >> Any word on what we might see in release 3.4? All we've been > >> hearing about is all the cool stuff in 4.0, but it looks like there > >> will be one before that.... > > > >Sometime next month is a reasonable timeframe :-) > > > > For the release to come out or to find out what will be in it? ;-) Wow, I totally misread that the first time :-) 3.4-R should be rearing it's head next month. As for new features, I can't help there, but watching the cvs-all mailing list will give you a good idea what's going into it. The -STABLE branch (RELENG_3) is the one you want to keep an eye on. The rest applies to -CURRENT. - jim -- - jim mock - walnut creek cdrom/freebsd test labs - jim@cdrom.com - - phone: 925.691.2800 x3814 - fax: 925.674.0821 - jim@FreeBSD.org - - freebsdzine - http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 12:44:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB7914D71 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11lebo-000Ebi-00; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:44:48 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA37757; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:44:47 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:44:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: jim@cdrom.com Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: next FBSD release... In-Reply-To: <19991110123713.B55317@limbo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmmm.. someone said January, but december sounds even better ! thanks for the info.... On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Jim Mock wrote: >On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 at 20:31:05 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >> On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Jim Mock wrote: >> >> >On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 at 16:58:55 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >> >> Any word on what we might see in release 3.4? All we've been >> >> hearing about is all the cool stuff in 4.0, but it looks like there >> >> will be one before that.... >> > >> >Sometime next month is a reasonable timeframe :-) >> > >> >> For the release to come out or to find out what will be in it? ;-) > >Wow, I totally misread that the first time :-) 3.4-R should be >rearing it's head next month. As for new features, I can't help >there, but watching the cvs-all mailing list will give you a good idea >what's going into it. The -STABLE branch (RELENG_3) is the one you >want to keep an eye on. The rest applies to -CURRENT. > >- jim > >-- >- jim mock - walnut creek cdrom/freebsd test labs - jim@cdrom.com - >- phone: 925.691.2800 x3814 - fax: 925.674.0821 - jim@FreeBSD.org - >- freebsdzine - http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - > -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 12:56:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C7B415270 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:56:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00843; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:55:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:55:38 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: patl@phoenix.volant.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports Software Collection Message-ID: <19991110145537.S393@futuresouth.com> References: <19991110172704.A19927@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to -chat] On Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 08:46:45AM -0800, a little birdie told me that patl@phoenix.volant.org remarked > On 10-Nov-99 at 08:27, Christoph Kukulies (kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) > wrote: > > It sounded that he meant "Y2K compliant". (must be some kind > > of degraded jargon during the last 45 days of the millenium :-) > > You mean 'the last 45 days of the 1900s'; since we all know that > 2000 is the last year of the 20th century and therefore the last > year of the 2nd millenium, not the first year of the 3rd. (I'm > assuming that the readers of this list are somewhat more intelligent > and informed than the general populace. If we weren't, we'd be > using Windows... :-) > > But this is drifting wildly off-topic... Which reminds me of a statement I saw (maybe it was here, don't remember) It went something like: --- I've been working on this Y2k problem, and lately I've heard everyone talking about some 'Millenium bug'. Great. Just great. We put all this trouble into solving one problem, and another one suddenly appears just one year later. --- -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 13: 4:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4869D14E16 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:04:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:01:55 -0500 Message-ID: <3829DDDE.9882F9E7@cstone.net> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:04:30 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Organization: Cornerstone Networks, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... References: <19991111091605.A28643@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> <19991110153657.22447@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Thursday, 11 November 1999 at 9:16:05 +1300, Jonathan Chen wrote: > > Check out: > > > > http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/09/seinfeld.virus.ap/index.html > > > > Looks like the "Good Times" virus is now a definite possiblity, thanks > > to Microsoft. > > Right, I heard that on the news this morning. Does anybody know how > it works? Does anybody have one they can send me? There was a discussion on this at the USENIX Security Symposium in August in DC. Basically, Outlook uses IE to view certain types of mail. It's possible to use Visual Basic and/or ActiveX to force Internet Explorer to execute arbitrary commands on the receiving computer - simply by viewing the HTML that the e-mail is written in. There are ways to disable it, but they're rather obscure at times. Joe Average-User won't know to do it. Makes me glad I'm out of tech support. :-) SeanMike -- Sean Michael Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 Report spam with full headers to: spam-report@cstone.net - TINLC Happiness is mandatory. Are you happy, citizen? - _Paranoia_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 13:12:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1209C14D1A for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:12:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA65738; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:07:09 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:07:09 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: jim@cdrom.com Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: next FBSD release... Message-ID: <19991110210709.A65363@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19991110122704.A55317@limbo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19991110122704.A55317@limbo.cdrom.com>; from Jim Mock on Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 12:27:04PM -0800 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 12:27:04PM -0800, Jim Mock wrote: > On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 at 16:58:55 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Any word on what we might see in release 3.4? All we've been > > hearing about is all the cool stuff in 4.0, but it looks like there > > will be one before that.... > > Sometime next month is a reasonable timeframe :-) I haven't been following the majority of the lists too closely for the past couple of months (roll on December, when my schedule is *completely* cleared). If anyone wants to put together an article about what's going to rock in 3.4 (or 4.0) it'll make the front page of Slashdot -- this would be for when the 3.4 freeze is announced. N -- If you want to imagine the future, imagine a tennis show stamping on a penguin's face forever. --- with apologies to George Orwell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 14: 9:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from baygull.rtd.com (baygull.rtd.com [198.102.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77065153CD for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:09:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from angussf@geoapps.rtd.com) Received: from geoapps.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by baygull.rtd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id WAA15019 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:17:58 GMT (envelope-from angussf@geoapps.rtd.com) Message-Id: <199911102217.WAA15019@baygull.rtd.com> Received: by geoapps.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 10 Nov 99 15:05:32 MST for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Angus Scott-Fleming" X-Organization: GeoApplications, Tucson, Arizona To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:37:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Reply-To: angussf@geoapps.com In-reply-to: <3825FFEF.4D40DD20@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 7 Nov 99, at 17:40, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > Isn't it a good time to be a FreeBSD user? :-). > > I read the complete document(WOW, I wasn't aware of everything there). > Considering a Judge wrote this, I think M$ is in big trouble. I think the whole computer business is in Big Trouble - once the government steps in and starts telling us how to run our businesses, innovation will drop to a crawl as bus.people try to 2nd-guess the govt regulators. Not saying MS is/was right, but my solution has always been not to do business with people whose business ethics are lousy. This is the only ethical way to deal with people like that. Bringing the power of government ("the mob") down on them is a short-term fix, but it's a long-term problem as others will drag the govt. into this arena and IMHO we'll all suffer for it. Open-source doesn't suffer from this problem because you can go elsewhere for support when you don't like the ethics of the business that's using/selling it. --------------------------------------------------------- Angus Scott-Fleming GeoApplications, Tucson, Arizona angussf@geoapps.com 1-520-323-9170 / fax 1-208-248-3124 --------------------------------------------------------- Proud user of Pegasus Mail, PM-Burst and Waffle --------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 14:53:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5AF14CA3 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:53:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11lgcB-000Hai-00; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:53:19 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA39108; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:53:18 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:53:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Angus Scott-Fleming Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: <199911102217.WAA15019@baygull.rtd.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Unfortunately, you *can't* go anywhere else if you want the windows OS and software that works best with it. If windows had at least given its source code to developers, they could have improved it. Much like MSDOS, PCDOS, IBMDOS, COMPAQDOS, etc. But no, they kept it all a big secret. I think if windows went open source, it would be optimized and enhanced so quickly, and the public would benefit. On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Angus Scott-Fleming wrote: >On 7 Nov 99, at 17:40, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > >> Isn't it a good time to be a FreeBSD user? :-). >> >> I read the complete document(WOW, I wasn't aware of everything there). >> Considering a Judge wrote this, I think M$ is in big trouble. > >I think the whole computer business is in Big Trouble - once the >government steps in and starts telling us how to run our businesses, >innovation will drop to a crawl as bus.people try to 2nd-guess the govt >regulators. > >Not saying MS is/was right, but my solution has always been not to do >business with people whose business ethics are lousy. This is the only >ethical way to deal with people like that. Bringing the power of >government ("the mob") down on them is a short-term fix, but it's a >long-term problem as others will drag the govt. into this arena and >IMHO we'll all suffer for it. > >Open-source doesn't suffer from this problem because you can go >elsewhere for support when you don't like the ethics of the business >that's using/selling it. > >--------------------------------------------------------- >Angus Scott-Fleming GeoApplications, Tucson, Arizona >angussf@geoapps.com 1-520-323-9170 / fax 1-208-248-3124 >--------------------------------------------------------- > Proud user of Pegasus Mail, PM-Burst and Waffle >--------------------------------------------------------- > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 15: 1:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C23914CA3 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:01:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:01:36 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Jonathon McKitrick" , "Angus Scott-Fleming" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:01:36 -0800 Message-ID: <000601bf2bcf$8a43d870$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Unfortunately, you *can't* go anywhere else if you want the windows OS and > software that works best with it. If windows had at least given its > source code to developers, they could have improved it. Much like MSDOS, > PCDOS, IBMDOS, COMPAQDOS, etc. But no, they kept it all a big secret. I > think if windows went open source, it would be optimized and enhanced so > quickly, and the public would benefit. That extremely short-term thinking. I don't think the public would benefit at all, considering the chilling effect it would have on the development of more advanced technologies. The more the government does to preserve the browser market and preserve the operating system market, the longer it will be before these technologies become obsolete. I say, let Microsoft commoditize the browser. I don't need two broswers. Then the geniuses at Netscape can work on making the technology that will make the browser obselete instead of wasting their time trying to play catch up with Micrsoft. That's what benefits consumers. At least, that's what benefits consumers with an ounce of vision. DS > On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Angus Scott-Fleming wrote: > > >On 7 Nov 99, at 17:40, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > > > >> Isn't it a good time to be a FreeBSD user? :-). > >> > >> I read the complete document(WOW, I wasn't aware of everything there). > >> Considering a Judge wrote this, I think M$ is in big trouble. > > > >I think the whole computer business is in Big Trouble - once the > >government steps in and starts telling us how to run our businesses, > >innovation will drop to a crawl as bus.people try to 2nd-guess the govt > >regulators. > > > >Not saying MS is/was right, but my solution has always been not to do > >business with people whose business ethics are lousy. This is the only > >ethical way to deal with people like that. Bringing the power of > >government ("the mob") down on them is a short-term fix, but it's a > >long-term problem as others will drag the govt. into this arena and > >IMHO we'll all suffer for it. > > > >Open-source doesn't suffer from this problem because you can go > >elsewhere for support when you don't like the ethics of the business > >that's using/selling it. > > > >--------------------------------------------------------- > >Angus Scott-Fleming GeoApplications, Tucson, Arizona > >angussf@geoapps.com 1-520-323-9170 / fax 1-208-248-3124 > >--------------------------------------------------------- > > Proud user of Pegasus Mail, PM-Burst and Waffle > >--------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > -jonathon > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 15:19:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id C32DD14EB4; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:19:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5181CD44C; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:19:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:19:16 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: Greg Lehey , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... In-Reply-To: <3829DDDE.9882F9E7@cstone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > There was a discussion on this at the USENIX Security Symposium in > August in DC. > > Basically, Outlook uses IE to view certain types of mail. It's possible > to use Visual Basic and/or ActiveX to force Internet Explorer to execute > arbitrary commands on the receiving computer - simply by viewing the > HTML that the e-mail is written in. > > There are ways to disable it, but they're rather obscure at times. Joe > Average-User won't know to do it. This sounds like a different problem. IE (especially IE5) has been plagued by security vulnerabilities since it came out - many of them are of this sort (or Java sandbox escape strategies, etc), but there have also been found a couple of nastier (but more traditional) buffer overflows. This one sounds like it exploits an overflow in the message downloading part of MSOE (similar vulnerabilities existed in old versions of Eudora, at least, and I think Pine had one too). So you get hit at the time you /download/ the message (POP3, etc), not when you actually read it. Check the bugtraq archives on www.securityfocus.com (excellent site!) for more information. It doesn't help that Microsoft often takes weeks for the patches to make their way onto windowsupdate.microsoft.com, and that doesn't help the millions of win95 users (or win98 users who haven't enabled critical update notification) at all. I've long thought that this is going to be the next wave in computer security threats: software which aggressively searches for many kinds of common buffer overflows, and probes networks to spread. Historically most worms have been single-vectored and so relatively easy to defend against (single vendor patch), which isn't so if you have to patch n different security holes on all your machines (client and server). Client exploits (especially active ones like this, not passive ones like Melissa which relied on user stupidity) are particularly troublesome to defend against when you have hundreds of user machines. > Makes me glad I'm out of tech support. :-) Indeed :-) Kris ---- Cthulhu for President! For when you're tired of choosing the _lesser_ of two evils.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 15:23:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45875152A5 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:23:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01730; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:47:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:47:24 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Angus Scott-Fleming , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Angus Scott-Fleming wrote: > > >On 7 Nov 99, at 17:40, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > > > >> Isn't it a good time to be a FreeBSD user? :-). > >> > >> I read the complete document(WOW, I wasn't aware of everything there). > >> Considering a Judge wrote this, I think M$ is in big trouble. > > > >I think the whole computer business is in Big Trouble - once the > >government steps in and starts telling us how to run our businesses, > >innovation will drop to a crawl as bus.people try to 2nd-guess the govt > >regulators. > > > >Not saying MS is/was right, but my solution has always been not to do > >business with people whose business ethics are lousy. This is the only > >ethical way to deal with people like that. Bringing the power of > >government ("the mob") down on them is a short-term fix, but it's a > >long-term problem as others will drag the govt. into this arena and > >IMHO we'll all suffer for it. > > > >Open-source doesn't suffer from this problem because you can go > >elsewhere for support when you don't like the ethics of the business > >that's using/selling it. > > Unfortunately, you *can't* go anywhere else if you want the windows OS and > software that works best with it. If windows had at least given its > source code to developers, they could have improved it. Much like MSDOS, > PCDOS, IBMDOS, COMPAQDOS, etc. But no, they kept it all a big secret. I > think if windows went open source, it would be optimized and enhanced so > quickly, and the public would benefit. I don't think this is a fair assesment of what the case was about, MS has been accused of several things: 1) paying off lead developers of competeing software so they leave the competing firm 2) buying into a market, then using it's push to penalize companies using a competator's services in the markets that is already has a foothold in 3) penalizing companies that have any association with a competator by raising license fees and withholding products. 4) adding gratitous incompatibilities to thier OS to break competator's competing programs such as browsers and office suites. That is what was unfair about MS's alleged business practices. In point of open source, I don't think anyone wants to look at code little with variables named ThisIsMyFunkyWidget_32compat, it would potentially set the whole opensource community back 10 years when just the site of such source could turn one into a raving, frothing madman. :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 15:27:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (ith1-322.twcny.rr.com [24.24.11.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E127153B0; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:27:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc26@tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net) Received: (from cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA36767; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:26:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc26) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:26:13 -0500 From: Cliff Crawford To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Sean Michael Whipkey , Greg Lehey , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... Message-ID: <19991110182613.A36629@cornell.edu> Reply-To: cjc26@cornell.edu References: <3829DDDE.9882F9E7@cstone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Kris Kennaway menulis: > > Makes me glad I'm out of tech support. :-) > > Indeed :-) Take pity on me--I still am in tech support :-( -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- Shall she hear the lion's roar? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 15:27:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BADB14D48 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:27:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10569; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:26:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991110162243.04435ba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:27:04 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... In-Reply-To: <19991110153657.22447@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> References: <19991111091605.A28643@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> <19991111091605.A28643@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BubbleBoy works via a VBScript/ActiveX hole. Interpretation of the HTML runs the script, which in turn causes an ActiveX control (which should not be privileged to run but is) to run amok on the system. Unfortunately, any mail program that uses IE to render HTML is probably vulnerable. This includes Outlook, Outlook Express, and probably Eudora (unless you've forced Eudora not to use IE to render HTML). Netscape Communicator is buggy and crashes a lot, but at least does not have this hole. --Brett At 03:36 PM 11/10/1999 -0500, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Thursday, 11 November 1999 at 9:16:05 +1300, Jonathan Chen wrote: > > Check out: > > > > http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/09/seinfeld.virus.ap/index.html > > > > Looks like the "Good Times" virus is now a definite possiblity, thanks > > to Microsoft. > >Right, I heard that on the news this morning. Does anybody know how >it works? Does anybody have one they can send me? > >Greg >-- >Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key >See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 15:31: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A404914D48; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:31:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10624; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:30:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991110162912.04594580@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:30:51 -0700 To: cjc26@cornell.edu, Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... Cc: Sean Michael Whipkey , Greg Lehey , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19991110182613.A36629@cornell.edu> References: <3829DDDE.9882F9E7@cstone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you're in tech support (or even if you're not, but have to deal with Windows users), here's an MP3 you'll probably appreciate: http://www.ma.ultranet.com/~u-steve/eli/techsupt.mp3 --Brett At 06:26 PM 11/10/1999 -0500, Cliff Crawford wrote: >* Kris Kennaway menulis: > > > Makes me glad I'm out of tech support. :-) > > > > Indeed :-) > >Take pity on me--I still am in tech support :-( > > >-- >cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ >-><- Shall she hear the lion's roar? > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 15:33:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id F243714D48; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E18741CD44C; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:33:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:33:51 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Angus Scott-Fleming , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > In point of open source, I don't think anyone wants to look at code > little with variables named ThisIsMyFunkyWidget_32compat, it would > potentially set the whole opensource community back 10 years when just > the site of such source could turn one into a raving, frothing madman. Maybe this is all part of the master plan. Kind of like the Snow Crash virus..sends hackers mad just looking at it :-) Kris ---- Cthulhu for President! For when you're tired of choosing the _lesser_ of two evils.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 15:37:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB0C153E4 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:37:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11lhIz-000Itp-00; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:37:33 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA39645; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:37:32 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:37:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Angus Scott-Fleming , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well said, as usual, Alfred ! :-) On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >> On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Angus Scott-Fleming wrote: >> >> >On 7 Nov 99, at 17:40, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: >> > >> >> Isn't it a good time to be a FreeBSD user? :-). >> >> >> >> I read the complete document(WOW, I wasn't aware of everything there). >> >> Considering a Judge wrote this, I think M$ is in big trouble. >> > >> >I think the whole computer business is in Big Trouble - once the >> >government steps in and starts telling us how to run our businesses, >> >innovation will drop to a crawl as bus.people try to 2nd-guess the govt >> >regulators. >> > >> >Not saying MS is/was right, but my solution has always been not to do >> >business with people whose business ethics are lousy. This is the only >> >ethical way to deal with people like that. Bringing the power of >> >government ("the mob") down on them is a short-term fix, but it's a >> >long-term problem as others will drag the govt. into this arena and >> >IMHO we'll all suffer for it. >> > >> >Open-source doesn't suffer from this problem because you can go >> >elsewhere for support when you don't like the ethics of the business >> >that's using/selling it. >> >> Unfortunately, you *can't* go anywhere else if you want the windows OS and >> software that works best with it. If windows had at least given its >> source code to developers, they could have improved it. Much like MSDOS, >> PCDOS, IBMDOS, COMPAQDOS, etc. But no, they kept it all a big secret. I >> think if windows went open source, it would be optimized and enhanced so >> quickly, and the public would benefit. > >I don't think this is a fair assesment of what the case was about, >MS has been accused of several things: > >1) paying off lead developers of competeing software so they leave > the competing firm >2) buying into a market, then using it's push to penalize companies > using a competator's services in the markets that is already has > a foothold in >3) penalizing companies that have any association with a competator > by raising license fees and withholding products. >4) adding gratitous incompatibilities to thier OS to break competator's > competing programs such as browsers and office suites. > >That is what was unfair about MS's alleged business practices. > >In point of open source, I don't think anyone wants to look at code >little with variables named ThisIsMyFunkyWidget_32compat, it would >potentially set the whole opensource community back 10 years when just >the site of such source could turn one into a raving, frothing madman. > >:) > >-Alfred > > -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 15:38:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 410AB14E1E; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334691CD61F; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:38:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:38:54 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: cjc26@cornell.edu, Sean Michael Whipkey , Greg Lehey , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991110162912.04594580@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > If you're in tech support (or even if you're not, but have > to deal with Windows users), here's an MP3 you'll probably > appreciate: > > http://www.ma.ultranet.com/~u-steve/eli/techsupt.mp3 Glad I didn't have to deal with this guy.. ftp://ftp.schulte.org/funstuff/helpdesk.wav Kris ---- Cthulhu for President! For when you're tired of choosing the _lesser_ of two evils.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 15:55:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7AE1542B for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:55:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10883; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:54:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991110165117.04522100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:54:53 -0700 To: angussf@geoapps.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: <199911102217.WAA15019@baygull.rtd.com> References: <3825FFEF.4D40DD20@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:37 PM 11/10/1999 -0700, Angus Scott-Fleming wrote: >I think the whole computer business is in Big Trouble - once the >government steps in and starts telling us how to run our businesses, >innovation will drop to a crawl as bus.people try to 2nd-guess the govt >regulators. Nonsense. What the government seeks to rein in is not software design but rather anti-competitive business practices. The fact that some of the practices were implemented by tweaking the software is only incidental to the case, and the government is well aware of this. To say that the government should not intervene because Microsoft's illegal actions were accomplished (in part) via software design is akin to saying that the government should not punish fraud because it is accomplished via speech. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 15:58:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7ED14C34 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:58:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10903; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:56:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991110165535.04523ce0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:56:38 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Jonathon McKitrick" , "Angus Scott-Fleming" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: In-Reply-To: <000601bf2bcf$8a43d870$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:01 PM 11/10/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > I say, let Microsoft commoditize the browser. I say, let's release the browser under the BSD license and let 20 companies compete and innovate by marketing their own enhanced versions of it. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 16:24:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BFF814DE6 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:24:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:24:34 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , , Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:24:34 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf2bdb$20f36f00$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991110165117.04522100@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 02:37 PM 11/10/1999 -0700, Angus Scott-Fleming wrote: > > >I think the whole computer business is in Big Trouble - once the > >government steps in and starts telling us how to run our businesses, > >innovation will drop to a crawl as bus.people try to 2nd-guess the govt > >regulators. > > Nonsense. What the government seeks to rein in is not software design > but rather anti-competitive business practices. The problem is that the majority of these practices were the same types of practices that every software design company practices every day. And the motive is always to make one's own product better and to increase its market share. Reading over the findings of fact, you can see immense confusion between technological leverage and market leverage. Almost every hi-tech company attempts to leverage its existing technology into new products. The alternative is reinventing the wheel each time. A large number of companies use their existing contact channels (such as their web page), which gets popularized through one set of products, to promote whatever new products they may have. In reality, all of these things strengthen competition. It was competition from Microsoft that took Netscape's market share, after all. > The fact that some of > the practices were implemented by tweaking the software is only > incidental to the case, and the government is well aware of this. > > To say that the government should not intervene because Microsoft's > illegal actions were accomplished (in part) via software design is akin to > saying that the government should not punish fraud because it is > accomplished via speech. Actually, that's a point that's relevant for several reasons. A lot of the evidence in this case consists of memos between Microsoft employees. The problem is, you can't infer a company's motives by what its employees say to each other. I assure you, this will have a chilling effect on speech. I've been at board meetings for the company I work for where policy decisions were made. Each person gave some arguments in support of the policy and the policy was adopted. Each person tends to assume that the reason the policy decision was made is the reason he or she endorses. (Ask ten people what the motivation for the change was, and you will get ten very different answers.) Similarly, if I have to communicate the policy decision to those below me, I'll tend to slant it to get a better reception from those below me. If we have a specific rivalry with another company, I may well say that this policy will "get them", but it does not follow that this is the reason for the policy. I think the concept of a large corporation's 'intent' is largely a legal fiction. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 16:25:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (ith1-322.twcny.rr.com [24.24.11.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C10315266; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:24:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc26@tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net) Received: (from cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA36997; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:23:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc26) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:23:20 -0500 From: Clifford James Crawford To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kennaway , Sean Michael Whipkey , Greg Lehey , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... Message-ID: <19991110192320.C36629@cornell.edu> Reply-To: cjc26@cornell.edu References: <3829DDDE.9882F9E7@cstone.net> <19991110182613.A36629@cornell.edu> <4.2.0.58.19991110162912.04594580@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991110162912.04594580@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is SO true..I can't tell you how many times someone has called up asking for their IP address, and when I tell them to go ask their network administrator, they reply, "But I >am< the network administrator!" * Brett Glass menulis: > If you're in tech support (or even if you're not, but have > to deal with Windows users), here's an MP3 you'll probably > appreciate: > > http://www.ma.ultranet.com/~u-steve/eli/techsupt.mp3 > > --Brett > > At 06:26 PM 11/10/1999 -0500, Cliff Crawford wrote: > >* Kris Kennaway menulis: > > > > Makes me glad I'm out of tech support. :-) > > > > > > Indeed :-) > > > >Take pity on me--I still am in tech support :-( -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- Shall she hear the lion's roar? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 17:14:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (ith1-322.twcny.rr.com [24.24.11.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB0F153D2; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:14:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc26@tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net) Received: (from cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA37336; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:13:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc26) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:13:23 -0500 From: Clifford James Crawford To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Brett Glass , Sean Michael Whipkey , Greg Lehey , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... Message-ID: <19991110201323.E36629@cornell.edu> Reply-To: cjc26@cornell.edu References: <4.2.0.58.19991110162912.04594580@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Kris Kennaway menulis: > On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > If you're in tech support (or even if you're not, but have > > to deal with Windows users), here's an MP3 you'll probably > > appreciate: > > > > http://www.ma.ultranet.com/~u-steve/eli/techsupt.mp3 > > Glad I didn't have to deal with this guy.. > > ftp://ftp.schulte.org/funstuff/helpdesk.wav That site seems to be down, but I've found another with a bunch of wavs of tech support calls on it: Fortunately the calls we get at the Cornell helpdesk aren't as bad as these. :) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- Shall she hear the lion's roar? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 19:52: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6BB814CF0 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:51:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13014; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:51:23 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991110204700.043fbe60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:51:34 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , , From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: <000001bf2bdb$20f36f00$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19991110165117.04522100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:24 PM 11/10/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > The problem is that the majority of these practices were the same types of >practices that every software design company practices every day. Not so. The practices in which Microsoft engaged all involved monopoly leverage, which no other software company has. > > To say that the government should not intervene because Microsoft's > > illegal actions were accomplished (in part) via software design is akin to > > saying that the government should not punish fraud because it is > > accomplished via speech. > > Actually, that's a point that's relevant for several reasons. A lot of the >evidence in this case consists of memos between Microsoft employees. The >problem is, you can't infer a company's motives by what its employees say to >each other. Oh? In that case, I suppose that any corporation can get away with anything, then, because even though it's a "fictional person" for legal purposes it cannot have intent. This leaves us wide open to a rather nasty agenda: minimize government that's accountable to the people, while instituting what is effectively government by corporate fiat. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 10 19:52:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49EBC14CF0; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:52:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13041; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:52:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991110205206.047e9100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:52:30 -0700 To: cjc26@cornell.edu From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... Cc: Kris Kennaway , Sean Michael Whipkey , Greg Lehey , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19991110192320.C36629@cornell.edu> References: <4.2.0.58.19991110162912.04594580@localhost> <3829DDDE.9882F9E7@cstone.net> <19991110182613.A36629@cornell.edu> <4.2.0.58.19991110162912.04594580@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:23 PM 11/10/1999 -0500, Clifford James Crawford wrote: >This is SO true..I can't tell you how many times someone has called up >asking for their IP address, and when I tell them to go ask their >network administrator, they reply, "But I >am< the network >administrator!" Must be an MCSE. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 0:43:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EED914CB4 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:43:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De) Received: from quitte.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (quitte-atm [141.44.30.41]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA22358 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:43:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by quitte.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA19714; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:43:35 +0100 (MET) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... References: <4.2.0.58.19991110162912.04594580@localhost> <19991110201323.E36629@cornell.edu> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Clifford James Crawford's message of "Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:13:23 -0500" Date: 11 Nov 1999 09:43:34 +0100 Message-ID: <0vaeol770p.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Clifford James Crawford writes: > That site seems to be down, but I've found another with a bunch of wavs > of tech support calls on it: Hhh, all I get playing these MP3s using mpg123 are "Illegal Audio-MPEG-Header" error messages... Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 5:11:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5E7414C1B for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 05:11:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AB463754B; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 05:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9712A1D7E; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 05:12:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 05:12:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: David Schwartz Cc: Brett Glass , angussf@geoapps.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: <000001bf2bdb$20f36f00$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, David Schwartz wrote: :> At 02:37 PM 11/10/1999 -0700, Angus Scott-Fleming wrote: :> :> >I think the whole computer business is in Big Trouble - once the :> >government steps in and starts telling us how to run our businesses, :> >innovation will drop to a crawl as bus.people try to 2nd-guess the govt :> >regulators. :> :> Nonsense. What the government seeks to rein in is not software design :> but rather anti-competitive business practices. : : The problem is that the majority of these practices were the same types of :practices that every software design company practices every day. And the :motive is always to make one's own product better and to increase its market :share. So? Most software companies aren't an OS monopoly using that position to force their non OS products down the throats of the world. The DoJ isn't using Joe Programmers email against microsoft, they're using Chairman Gates', and his cadre of president's and vice-president's mail against them. If they don't represent the reasons and motives behind M$, who the hell does? I think it's about time the M$ juggernaut ran up against an opponent with even more money and resources than it has. It's not like IBM or AT&T could threaten them anymore. M$ has summarily bought or killed anyone who threatened their apoeration in any aspect. This is not a single case, but a pattern of repeated predatory behaviour. It's not illegal to be a monopoly. It is illegal to abuse that position. End of story. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 9: 8: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C7F1549A for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:07:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA94187 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:07:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:07:39 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Head count for San Francisco BAFUG meeting Message-ID: <19991111090739.B94159@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 11:32:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vinyl.sentex.ca (vinyl.sentex.ca [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D0114ED2 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:32:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite-atm.sentex.ca [209.112.4.1]) by vinyl.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA89837 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:32:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from simoeon (simeon.sentex.ca [209.112.4.47]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA07790 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:32:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991111143117.01488180@staff.sentex.ca> X-Sender: mdtpop@staff.sentex.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:31:17 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Mike Tancsa Subject: bandwidth ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Was there some new release of LINUX today ? Traffic to cdrom.com is totally slogged sand2# traceroute www.freebsd.org traceroute to freefall.freebsd.org (204.216.27.21), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 wat-border (209.167.248.1) 1.202 ms 0.862 ms 0.811 ms 2 sentex-gw.bb1.wat1.uunet.ca (209.167.167.177) 2.886 ms 2.920 ms 2.933 ms 3 h5-0-0.bb1.tor2.uunet.ca (205.150.242.81) 6.188 ms 6.645 ms 6.163 ms 4 105.a12-0-0.cr2.tor2.uunet.ca (205.150.159.85) 9.277 ms 6.245 ms 8.048 ms 5 ATM11-0-0.BR2.TCO1.ALTER.NET (137.39.250.69) 20.457 ms 47.960 ms 38.697 ms 6 * mae-e-1.e0.crl.com (192.41.177.104) 215.286 ms 38.994 ms 7 vva1-sfo2.ATM.us.crl.net (165.113.0.253) 140.992 ms 132.631 ms 123.770 ms 8 E0-CRL-SFO-03-E0X0.US.CRL.NET (165.113.55.3) 156.637 ms 118.987 ms 107.897 ms 9 T1-CDROM-00-EX.US.CRL.NET (165.113.118.2) 847.174 ms 877.881 ms 1015.660 ms 10 freefall.FreeBSD.ORG (204.216.27.21) 927.591 ms 938.808 ms 909.280 ms traceroute to freefall.freebsd.org (204.216.27.21), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 recycle-gate-a.sentex.ca (207.245.212.97) 0.426 ms 0.382 ms 0.360 ms 2 iolite.sentex.ca (209.112.4.3) 0.736 ms 0.673 ms 0.659 ms 3 hespler-border.sentex.ca (205.211.165.178) 0.784 ms 0.768 ms 0.760 ms 4 sentexatm.tor.rns.net (206.222.95.25) 1.325 ms 37.406 ms 98.813 ms 5 hcap1-tor.tor.rns.net (206.222.95.21) 65.410 ms 39.535 ms 5.932 ms 6 brdr1-tor.tor.rns.net (206.222.64.2) 6.665 ms 6.151 ms 7.515 ms 7 if-12-0-1.bb1.Scarborough.Teleglobe.net (207.45.207.237) 8.959 ms 8.671 ms 8.447 ms 8 if-2-0.core1.Scarborough.Teleglobe.net (207.45.223.217) 10.492 ms 8.468 ms 7.723 ms 9 if-4-0.core1.NewYork.Teleglobe.net (207.45.223.50) 19.765 ms 20.384 ms 20.465 ms 10 if-11-0-0.bb4.NewYork.Teleglobe.net (207.45.222.6) 20.716 ms 21.086 ms 23.648 ms 11 if-1-0-0.bb1.SprintNAP.Teleglobe.net (207.45.223.6) 27.261 ms 23.669 ms 24.260 ms 12 ny-nap.crl.com (192.157.69.56) 49.784 ms 28.855 ms 46.025 ms 13 lga-vva.C.us.crl.net (165.113.50.206) 87.076 ms 75.460 ms * 14 vva1-sfo2.ATM.us.crl.net (165.113.0.253) 171.897 ms 455.916 ms 217.450 ms 15 E0-CRL-SFO-03-E0X0.US.CRL.NET (165.113.55.3) 126.777 ms 130.501 ms 121.922 ms 16 T1-CDROM-00-EX.US.CRL.NET (165.113.118.2) 1095.802 ms 1128.196 ms 1254.416 ms 17 freefall.FreeBSD.ORG (204.216.27.21) 1324.246 ms 1367.367 ms 1243.528 ms ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mike Tancsa, tel 01.519.651.3400 Network Administrator, mike@sentex.net Sentex Communications www.sentex.net Cambridge, Ontario Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 11:41: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA6E314BF4 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:40:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00277; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:35:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199911111935.LAA00277@implode.root.com> To: Mike Tancsa Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bandwidth ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:31:17 EST." <3.0.5.32.19991111143117.01488180@staff.sentex.ca> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:35:21 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Was there some new release of LINUX today ? Traffic to cdrom.com is >totally slogged Looks like someone is Smurfing their T1 again. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. >sand2# traceroute www.freebsd.org >traceroute to freefall.freebsd.org (204.216.27.21), 30 hops max, 40 byte >packets > 1 wat-border (209.167.248.1) 1.202 ms 0.862 ms 0.811 ms > 2 sentex-gw.bb1.wat1.uunet.ca (209.167.167.177) 2.886 ms 2.920 ms >2.933 ms > 3 h5-0-0.bb1.tor2.uunet.ca (205.150.242.81) 6.188 ms 6.645 ms 6.163 ms > 4 105.a12-0-0.cr2.tor2.uunet.ca (205.150.159.85) 9.277 ms 6.245 ms >8.048 ms > 5 ATM11-0-0.BR2.TCO1.ALTER.NET (137.39.250.69) 20.457 ms 47.960 ms >38.697 ms > 6 * mae-e-1.e0.crl.com (192.41.177.104) 215.286 ms 38.994 ms > 7 vva1-sfo2.ATM.us.crl.net (165.113.0.253) 140.992 ms 132.631 ms >123.770 ms > 8 E0-CRL-SFO-03-E0X0.US.CRL.NET (165.113.55.3) 156.637 ms 118.987 ms >107.897 ms > 9 T1-CDROM-00-EX.US.CRL.NET (165.113.118.2) 847.174 ms 877.881 ms >1015.660 ms >10 freefall.FreeBSD.ORG (204.216.27.21) 927.591 ms 938.808 ms 909.280 ms > > >traceroute to freefall.freebsd.org (204.216.27.21), 30 hops max, 40 byte >packets > 1 recycle-gate-a.sentex.ca (207.245.212.97) 0.426 ms 0.382 ms 0.360 ms > 2 iolite.sentex.ca (209.112.4.3) 0.736 ms 0.673 ms 0.659 ms > 3 hespler-border.sentex.ca (205.211.165.178) 0.784 ms 0.768 ms 0.760 ms > 4 sentexatm.tor.rns.net (206.222.95.25) 1.325 ms 37.406 ms 98.813 ms > 5 hcap1-tor.tor.rns.net (206.222.95.21) 65.410 ms 39.535 ms 5.932 ms > 6 brdr1-tor.tor.rns.net (206.222.64.2) 6.665 ms 6.151 ms 7.515 ms > 7 if-12-0-1.bb1.Scarborough.Teleglobe.net (207.45.207.237) 8.959 ms >8.671 ms 8.447 ms > 8 if-2-0.core1.Scarborough.Teleglobe.net (207.45.223.217) 10.492 ms >8.468 ms 7.723 ms > 9 if-4-0.core1.NewYork.Teleglobe.net (207.45.223.50) 19.765 ms 20.384 >ms 20.465 ms >10 if-11-0-0.bb4.NewYork.Teleglobe.net (207.45.222.6) 20.716 ms 21.086 >ms 23.648 ms >11 if-1-0-0.bb1.SprintNAP.Teleglobe.net (207.45.223.6) 27.261 ms 23.669 >ms 24.260 ms >12 ny-nap.crl.com (192.157.69.56) 49.784 ms 28.855 ms 46.025 ms >13 lga-vva.C.us.crl.net (165.113.50.206) 87.076 ms 75.460 ms * >14 vva1-sfo2.ATM.us.crl.net (165.113.0.253) 171.897 ms 455.916 ms >217.450 ms >15 E0-CRL-SFO-03-E0X0.US.CRL.NET (165.113.55.3) 126.777 ms 130.501 ms >121.922 ms >16 T1-CDROM-00-EX.US.CRL.NET (165.113.118.2) 1095.802 ms 1128.196 ms >1254.416 ms >17 freefall.FreeBSD.ORG (204.216.27.21) 1324.246 ms 1367.367 ms >1243.528 ms >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Mike Tancsa, tel 01.519.651.3400 >Network Administrator, mike@sentex.net >Sentex Communications www.sentex.net >Cambridge, Ontario Canada > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 13:14:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C51314E4B for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:14:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01817; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:38:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:38:13 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: John Reynolds~ Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Quick question on IBM ThinkPad In-Reply-To: <14379.9777.612177.194709@hip186.ch.intel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, John Reynolds~ wrote: > > [ On Thursday, November 11, Alfred Perlstein wrote: ] > > > > my thinkpad works just fine, perhaps you'd like to tell us what chipsets > > the laptop uses for its ethernet, video and other periphs? > > > > -Alfred > > unfortunately, I don't know at this point. Our "standard issue" thinkpads > that are given out change through time as IBM slightly changes models or > we re-negotiate things (otherwise, I would have volunteered the chipset > info, etc.), blah blah blah. Well, urm, how are we supposed to know if you don't even know? > I will try and dig into things with our dept. admin to see which "flavor" > would be shoved my way should I be forced to take a laptop. --------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ geez, I wish someone would force me to take a laptop... :) good luck, -Alfred > > Thanks for your reply!!! > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 13:19:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (pan.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5A114D30 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:19:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by pan.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.11 1999/11/10 17:27:15 spurcell Exp $) with ESMTP id OAA11688; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:19:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.8 1999/04/16 15:25:49 steved Exp steved $) with ESMTP id OAA26729; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:19:12 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id QAA17818; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:19:35 -0500 (EST) From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14379.13030.781773.165594@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:19:34 -0700 (MST) To: Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: Quick question on IBM ThinkPad In-Reply-To: References: <14379.9777.612177.194709@hip186.ch.intel.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 19.34.1 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ On Thursday, November 11, Alfred Perlstein wrote: ] > > Well, urm, how are we supposed to know if you don't even know? > Yeah I know, I know ... ;) But you see, around here, you get issued what you get issued. 99.9999999% of the people here are too ignorant to know the difference between hardware and don't *care* what's compatible with what or why because they're gonna run Ebola98 or WinNoT which are the only two "supported" platforms. IT doesn't issue hardware not supported by either, so no end-user has to care what they receive as a desktop PC/laptop. Therefore, it's tough for me to find out what I'd get before I get it because knowbody knows or cares assuming blindly that I'm a Windoze drone. :) > --------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > geez, I wish someone would force me to take a laptop... :) :) point taken, but A) I do not like the thinkpad series, and B) it makes my life more of a security nightmare than it already is (more freaking procedures to deal with laptops for corporate security reasons, etc. etc. etc. > good luck, cheers, -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds CEG, CCE, Next Generation Flows, HLA | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 14:35:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F12F14EBC for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:35:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20551; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:34:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991111152205.0454a2e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:34:14 -0700 To: John Reynolds~ , Alfred Perlstein From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Quick question on IBM ThinkPad Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <14379.13030.781773.165594@hip186.ch.intel.com> References: <14379.9777.612177.194709@hip186.ch.intel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I own a ThinkPad (a 760), and will not make the mistake of buying one again. First and foremost, no matter what the company says in its marketing literature, the ThinkPad is designed to be a Windows-specific machine. There are no audio or modem drivers for ANY version of UNIX; as a result, the company's vaunted MWave DSP is useless unless one is running Windows. (I understand that there are OS/2 drivers, but that when you use these to run the modem at 33.6 Kbps they make the system highly unstable and cause sound to stop working.) Power management and BIOS configuration are likewise not possible under any version of UNIX, since the company does not provide a setup utility within the BIOS. And the Cyber chipsets function slowly, if at all, with most X servers. The SCSI adapter in the docking station is not compatible with many drivers for the chipset on which it's based (though FreeBSD's drivers, thankfully, seem to work). The hard disk connector is proprietary and supported by only a couple of third parties. Second, the machine lacks physical integrity. The case is rubber-coated metal, and the slightest jar or scratch exposes the metal to view. The RAM compartment door works loose easily, causing memory errors, and the RAM is directly behind the hard disk and thus is heated by the hard disk's motor. When the machine is in the docking station, heat dissipation from the "heat pipe" on the bottom of the unit is blocked by the plastic of the dock, causing the machine to become incredibly hot. (PCMCIA cards ejected from the unit are frequently too hot to touch.) The cover latches and keyboard have fragile plastic pieces which are easy to snap. Other problems with the physical design include a CD-ROM drive which gets in the way of the battery (you must remove the drive to change battery packs) and tiny, tinny, weak speakers. Finally, there's poor support and service. There are no dealers nearby who actually have the capability to service the unit, so it must be shipped to Memphis. Loaners are generally not available, so one must make do without the computer in the meantime. In short, I'd give the ThinkPad a miss. --Brett Glass At 02:19 PM 11/11/1999 -0700, John Reynolds~ wrote: >[ On Thursday, November 11, Alfred Perlstein wrote: ] > > > > Well, urm, how are we supposed to know if you don't even know? > > > >Yeah I know, I know ... ;) But you see, around here, you get issued what >you get issued. 99.9999999% of the people here are too ignorant to know the >difference between hardware and don't *care* what's compatible with what or >why because they're gonna run Ebola98 or WinNoT which are the only two >"supported" platforms. IT doesn't issue hardware not supported by either, so >no end-user has to care what they receive as a desktop PC/laptop. Therefore, >it's tough for me to find out what I'd get before I get it because knowbody >knows or cares assuming blindly that I'm a Windoze drone. :) > > > --------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > geez, I wish someone would force me to take a laptop... :) > >:) > >point taken, but A) I do not like the thinkpad series, and B) it makes my >life more of a security nightmare than it already is (more freaking procedures >to deal with laptops for corporate security reasons, etc. etc. etc. > > > good luck, > >cheers, > >-Jr > >-- >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >| John Reynolds CEG, CCE, Next Generation Flows, HLA | >| Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 | >| jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 16: 4:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3766414FAE; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:04:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA61311; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:49:14 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:49:14 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Brett Glass Cc: cjc26@cornell.edu, Kris Kennaway , Sean Michael Whipkey , Greg Lehey , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... Message-ID: <19991111234914.A61013@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19991110162912.04594580@localhost> <3829DDDE.9882F9E7@cstone.net> <19991110182613.A36629@cornell.edu> <4.2.0.58.19991110162912.04594580@localhost> <19991110192320.C36629@cornell.edu> <4.2.0.58.19991110205206.047e9100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991110205206.047e9100@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 08:52:30PM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 08:52:30PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:23 PM 11/10/1999 -0500, Clifford James Crawford wrote: > > >This is SO true..I can't tell you how many times someone has called up > >asking for their IP address, and when I tell them to go ask their > >network administrator, they reply, "But I >am< the network > >administrator!" > > Must be an MCSE. ;-) I think you'll find that should be written "McSE". "Would you like fries with GUI sir?" N -- If you want to imagine the future, imagine a tennis shoe stamping on a penguin's face forever. --- with apologies to George Orwell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 20:49:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B3E614DAE for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:49:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA86456; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:47:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <199911120447.XAA86456@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Konrad Heuer" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:49:16 -0500 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Newbies vanishing? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:51:26 +0100 (CET), Konrad Heuer wrote: >Surely, freebsd-questions probably isn't the correct list where to mail >this question to. I feel a little bit worried since - to my opinion - the >number of newbie questions in this list decreases. Might be FreeBSD >installation and operation has become more easy or the FAQ database has >been improved very much, but might also be - and I fear that - the number >of newbie installations doesn't grow anymore. Will Linux really kill us in >the end? This is really best for chat. I think it is difficult to measure new installs. It is also possible that there are just as many new people installing as before and that they are asking less. You are also not taking in considerating the newsgroups. You would have to look at volume of newbie questions there too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 21:43:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA5C51541B for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:43:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24502 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:43:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991111224223.043d88d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:43:18 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Great cartoon about Jackson's Findings of Fact In-Reply-To: References: <000001bf2bdb$20f36f00$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/viewpoints/willis/willis110999.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 21:45: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF561541B for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:45:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:45:01 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Jamie Bowden" Cc: "Brett Glass" , , Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:45:01 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf2cd1$0f989c70$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So? Most software companies aren't an OS monopoly using that position to > force their non OS products down the throats of the world. Yes, Microsoft is a monpoly in the Alice-in-Wonderland world where Netscape Navigator competes with Windows but Macintoshes don't. > The DoJ isn't > using Joe Programmers email against microsoft, they're using Chairman > Gates', and his cadre of president's and vice-president's mail against > them. If they don't represent the reasons and motives behind M$, who the > hell does? Really, no one. That's why, in general, the standard for evaluating the reasons for a businesses' conduct are essentially that of the 'best possible reason'. In other words, to conclude that an action was specifically taken solely for an anticompetitive purpose, it generally must be established that there's no other legitimate business purpose why the action could have been taken. Even individuals often explain their motivations inaccurately. This is why we really don't have any 'pure intent' crimes, except perhaps for attempted assassination. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 11 22:35:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us (taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us [165.29.134.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177B714C0B; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:35:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from erickw@taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us) Received: from localhost (erickw@localhost) by taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us (8.9.0/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA11147; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 01:40:37 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 01:40:37 -0600 (CST) From: Erick White To: Nik Clayton Cc: Brett Glass , cjc26@cornell.edu, Kris Kennaway , Sean Michael Whipkey , Greg Lehey , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Good times" `virus' now a real possibility... In-Reply-To: <19991111234914.A61013@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yah with the MsCe certifications test though ladies and gentleman, M$ is playing around (As usual) and retiring test after suckering (Uhmmm) I mean getting others to pay for their certifications. What there planning with the price ranges for the joke they call Win2000 is going to put more people on to UNIX. I mean they can spend all the money they need for MicroShaft Winblows or they can go with a real operating system. Your Friend: Erick On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 08:52:30PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 07:23 PM 11/10/1999 -0500, Clifford James Crawford wrote: > > > > >This is SO true..I can't tell you how many times someone has called up > > >asking for their IP address, and when I tell them to go ask their > > >network administrator, they reply, "But I >am< the network > > >administrator!" > > > > Must be an MCSE. ;-) > > I think you'll find that should be written "McSE". > > "Would you like fries with GUI sir?" > > N > -- > If you want to imagine the future, imagine a tennis shoe stamping > on a penguin's face forever. > --- with apologies to George Orwell > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 0:53:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA13514D15 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:53:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA28907; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:51:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: John Reynolds~ Cc: Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Quick question on IBM ThinkPad References: <14379.9777.612177.194709@hip186.ch.intel.com> <14379.13030.781773.165594@hip186.ch.intel.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Nov 1999 09:51:53 +0100 In-Reply-To: John Reynolds~'s message of "Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:19:34 -0700 (MST)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070097 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.97) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Reynolds~ writes: > point taken, but A) I do not like the thinkpad series, and B) it > makes my life more of a security nightmare than it already is (more > freaking procedures to deal with laptops for corporate security > reasons, etc. etc. etc. Then lock it away in a desk drawer. Problem solved. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 2: 3:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.binep.ac.ru (ns.binep.ac.ru [193.233.37.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DB1314C96 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 02:01:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from goshik@binep.ac.ru) Received: from serv2.binep.ac.ru (serv2 [193.233.44.77]) by ns.binep.ac.ru (8.9.2/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA91023 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:06:57 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from goshik@binep.ac.ru) Reply-To: "Igor B. Bykhalo" From: "Igor B. Bykhalo" To: "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: China loves Linux? Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:58:45 +0300 Message-ID: <01bf2cf4$81bdb880$0000e9c1@serv2.binep.ac.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0913.2206 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0913.2200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://uk.news.yahoo.com/991110/22/ax8w.html http://www.graphon.com/News/pr-china991102.html China is really going to fall in love with Linux? This can be a sad news for us FreeBSD lovers... Regards, Goshik _____________________________________________________ Windows 2001: "Sorry, pal, i just can't do this" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 6:23:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D02314E49 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:23:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 617A5754B; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BF61D7F; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:24:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:24:26 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: David Schwartz Cc: Brett Glass , angussf@geoapps.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: <000001bf2cd1$0f989c70$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, David Schwartz wrote: : :> So? Most software companies aren't an OS monopoly using that position to :> force their non OS products down the throats of the world. : : Yes, Microsoft is a monpoly in the Alice-in-Wonderland world where Netscape :Navigator competes with Windows but Macintoshes don't. Reread the findings. Netscape does not compete with Windows, Netscape attempted to compete with IE, and M$ killed Netscape through the abuse of it's OS monopoly. :> The DoJ isn't :> using Joe Programmers email against microsoft, they're using Chairman :> Gates', and his cadre of president's and vice-president's mail against :> them. If they don't represent the reasons and motives behind M$, who the :> hell does? : : Really, no one. That's why, in general, the standard for evaluating the :reasons for a businesses' conduct are essentially that of the 'best possible :reason'. In other words, to conclude that an action was specifically taken :solely for an anticompetitive purpose, it generally must be established that :there's no other legitimate business purpose why the action could have been :taken. You're high. It doesn't matter if there are other accompanying reasons. Abuse of power is abuse of power. They crushed Netscape for no other reason than because Netscape didn't want to play in MS's sandbox. It's the same thing they attempted to do to Quicken years ago. MS has not changed, and will not change unless forced. They are getting their just deserts. The stuff coming out of the Caldera/DRI suit is just more showing of how MS either buys it's competition, or leverages it's power to make them irrelevant. That is in fact harmful to the indusrty and consumers. : Even individuals often explain their motivations inaccurately. This is why :we really don't have any 'pure intent' crimes, except perhaps for attempted :assassination. Fortunately, corporates are virtual entities whose mind exists on memos and peices of e-mail. There's no ambiguity in one executive telling another executive that they are going to kill the competition ('We need to smile when we pull the trigger' in ref. to Novell). Judge Jackson has determined that: 1) Microst has an Operating Systems Monopoly in the intel x86 based PC market. 2) They have used that monopoly to remove competition on the application level. 3) That's a violation of Sherman. This ain't rocket science. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 6:31:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A33314E49 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:31:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11mHjq-000HmN-00; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:31:42 +0000 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:31:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Jamie Bowden Cc: David Schwartz , Brett Glass , angussf@geoapps.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's an example i remember from several months back. I am a newbie, so correct if/where i am wrong. Samba worked wonderfully as a file server alongside windows machines. M$ got scared, so they changed just enough in their file transfer specs to break samba. This was done for no other reason than to make samba incompatible as a file server with windows (NT?) machines. Eventually, however, the samba team caught on, and were able to adapt. It's funny, M$ had the tables turned on them recently. Their MS Messenger works with AOL Instant Messages as well. But AOL tried to change its specs to break M$'s new messenger product. M$ basically said 'this isn't fair, but change all you want, we'll adapt. And it's true. Eventually AOL will run out of reasonable tweaks to break Messenger. But it's funny that M$ complained so much about it. -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 7:34:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (pan.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D0514DB5 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:34:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by pan.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.11 1999/11/10 17:27:15 spurcell Exp $) with ESMTP id IAA15538; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:34:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.8 1999/04/16 15:25:49 steved Exp steved $) with ESMTP id IAA21191; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:34:35 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id KAA09327; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:34:58 -0500 (EST) From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14380.13218.62973.947094@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:34:58 -0700 (MST) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Quick question on IBM ThinkPad In-Reply-To: References: <14379.9777.612177.194709@hip186.ch.intel.com> <14379.13030.781773.165594@hip186.ch.intel.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ On , November 12, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: ] > > Then lock it away in a desk drawer. Problem solved. > > DES that's exactly what will end up happening if I can't get FreeBSD working on it ;-) -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds CEG, CCE, Next Generation Flows, HLA | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 7:57:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay2.smtp.psi.net (relay2.smtp.psi.net [38.8.188.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAE3E14E38 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:57:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keichii@mail.utexas.edu) Received: from [38.192.209.90] (helo=keichii) by relay2.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org id 11mJ56-0005pc-00; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:57:45 -0500 Message-ID: <003b01bf2d26$a13b79e0$5ad1c026@keichii> From: "雲電之風 Michael Wu" To: "-chat@FreeBSD" References: <01bf2cf4$81bdb880$0000e9c1@serv2.binep.ac.ru> Subject: Re: China loves Linux? Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:57:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As I understand [being a recently arrived foreign student in US from Taiwan], Most of the backbone and main servers in Asia[i.e. Japan, Korea, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong] are either FreeBSD or Linux. You would be surprised at how "grassroots" FreeBSD is in China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. Unlike what I have observed in the US, many students from high school and up [especially college students] use localized versions of FreeBSD or Linux for personal workstations. Here are some interesting things you might want to know: 1. China recently *required* ALL commercial usage of encryption to register at a newly established bureau. The bureau will most likely be manned by people who struggle with setting up Outlook Express. 2. Have you pinged any of the *.cn lately? ;) The entire province that Shanghai is in shares, IIRC, a 100mb ~200mb/sec line [Shanghai city has 20million people] 3. Most of China's backbone lives on FreeBSD anyways. 4. China is known notoriously for having government enforced "reforms" that nobody in China regards. I have done consulting for an ebay-clone based in China. Most of the admins/developers in that company use and like FreeBSD very much. [Just to give an idea of how the situation is, this company spent 5million US dollars for equipment alone and uses mainly FreeBSD+MySQL.] Anyway, in my humble opinion FreeBSD presence in Asia is very deep rooted and I do not think will be affected by China's decisions. P.S. To all the guys engaged in the i18n effort, keep up the good work! :) Sincerely, -- Michael Chin-Yuan Wu 鉛刀貴一割﹐夢想聘良圖。 FreeBSD - Service Pack FFFF For NT / Ultimate Patch for Linux -- : http://uk.news.yahoo.com/991110/22/ax8w.html : : http://www.graphon.com/News/pr-china991102.html : : China is really going to fall in love with Linux? : This can be a sad news for us FreeBSD lovers... : : Regards, Goshik : __________________________________________________ ___ : Windows 2001: "Sorry, pal, i just can't do this" : : : : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org : with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 7:59:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay2.smtp.psi.net (relay2.smtp.psi.net [38.8.188.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D0714E38 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:59:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keichii@mail.utexas.edu) Received: from [38.192.209.90] (helo=keichii) by relay2.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org id 11mJ6c-00060Y-00; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:59:18 -0500 Message-ID: <004e01bf2d26$d91c9740$5ad1c026@keichii> From: "雲電之風 Michael Wu" To: "-chat@FreeBSD" References: <01bf2cf4$81bdb880$0000e9c1@serv2.binep.ac.ru> Subject: Re: China loves Linux? Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:59:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Apologiz for posting again As far as I can see, the only disadvantage that FreeBSD has in Asia lies in that FreeBSD lacks localization customizability when compared to Linux or M$. [hence the M$ tag in my email headers] Microsoft has done extremely well in allowing Asian language speakers Winblows has Japanese, Korean, traditional and simplified Chinese version that are localized to the start menu and control panel while allowing us to input/view Asian languages with ease. LINUX has been completely localized in China and China and has default stuff. LINUX internationalization support is comparable or just slightly worse to M$. [Good job CLE guys] And that worries many hardcore FreeBSDers because new users and beginners are prone to choose either Linux or M$ just because they can read what is on the screen. Due to the special situation in China/Taiwan, most localization/internationalization effort has been mainly contributions of college or graduate students. One just cannot tell his/her supervisor "I need to work on this FreeBSD port and cannot work on my thesis." :) So we would welcome any help that comes our way. Machines for development would be welcome. Any coders who would like to lend a hand please drop an email to free-taiwan-chat@freebsd.sinica.edu.tw . Most importantly, and we need this very direly, is for developers/porters/committers writing code on kernels, important system programs, ports, etc. to keep their stuff i18n compliant. internationalization==i18n, count letters between first 'i' and last 'n' ] Please refer to /usr/ports/converters/i18n-tools for details. Mainly i18n is to allow easy porting to make 2-byte characters readable and stuff. Thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it. I hope I did not step out of place by asking for such things. Maybe I should have let the more respectable gurus working on i18n to speak about this. But please make sure your port give us some room to move it to other languages. /me bows in respect and humility Michael Chin-Yuan Wu 鉛刀貴一割﹐夢想聘良圖。 Strive for the very best, the outcome is not important. FreeBSD - Service Pack FFFF For NT / Ultimate Patch for Linux -- : http://uk.news.yahoo.com/991110/22/ax8w.html : : http://www.graphon.com/News/pr-china991102.html : : China is really going to fall in love with Linux? : This can be a sad news for us FreeBSD lovers... : : Regards, Goshik : __________________________________________________ ___ : Windows 2001: "Sorry, pal, i just can't do this" : : : : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org : with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 8:26:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095ED14F94 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:26:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28247; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:25:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112090314.045a1a30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:07:00 -0700 To: Jamie Bowden , David Schwartz From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: angussf@geoapps.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <000001bf2cd1$0f989c70$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:24 AM 11/12/1999 -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: >On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > >: >:> So? Most software companies aren't an OS monopoly using that position to >:> force their non OS products down the throats of the world. >: >: Yes, Microsoft is a monpoly in the Alice-in-Wonderland world where Netscape >:Navigator competes with Windows but Macintoshes don't. > >Reread the findings. Netscape does not compete with Windows, Netscape >attempted to compete with IE, This is not what the findings say. Judge Jackson says -- and he's correct -- that Netscape enabled the production of cross-platform software, thus threatening Microsoft's Windows monopoly. >You're high. It doesn't matter if there are other accompanying reasons. >Abuse of power is abuse of power. True. Jackson has also pointed out that Microsoft attempted to manipulate PC manufacturers and their markets by charging them different prices. This is a blatant violation of the Robinson-Patman act and could trigger serious penalties. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 9: 1:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DF8D14CAE for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:01:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27198; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:59:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <382C4755.2A6B649B@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:59:01 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Igor B. Bykhalo" Cc: "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: Re: China loves Linux? References: <01bf2cf4$81bdb880$0000e9c1@serv2.binep.ac.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Igor B. Bykhalo" wrote: > > http://uk.news.yahoo.com/991110/22/ax8w.html > > http://www.graphon.com/News/pr-china991102.html > > China is really going to fall in love with Linux? > This can be a sad news for us FreeBSD lovers... Even if it is true ( and I haven't done enough looking to say if it is or isn't ) I think this should be looked at a little bit wider perspective. Think of it as someone announcing that they are going to embrace unix flavor X. Flavor X can be pretty much any kind of unix, be it Linux, Solaris, etc. I think it's much easier for FreeBSD to show what a makes it a neat OS when you are talking to people who are already familiar with unix in general. There's ( hopefully ) a lot less education needed before you can start explaining what makes FreeBSD great. Telling someone about what makes FreeBSD great who is only familiar with Windows NT requires lots of education before you can get to the good stuff :-) > > Regards, Goshik -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 9:56:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8DA14D97 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:56:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29390; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:55:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112105353.045a9cc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:55:15 -0700 To: Joseph Scott , "Igor B. Bykhalo" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: China loves Linux? Cc: "-chat@FreeBSD" In-Reply-To: <382C4755.2A6B649B@owp.csus.edu> References: <01bf2cf4$81bdb880$0000e9c1@serv2.binep.ac.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:59 PM 11/12/1999 +0000, Joseph Scott wrote: > I think it's much easier for FreeBSD to show >what a makes it a neat OS when you are talking to people who are already >familiar with unix in general. But it's harder to get them to convert, since what they're using is ALREADY very much like FreeBSD. The advantages of switching are much smaller than for, say, an NT user. Best to get them using FreeBSD from the outset. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 10: 2:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4841506C for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:02:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11mL1X-000KXo-00; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:02:11 +0000 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:02:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: Joseph Scott , "Igor B. Bykhalo" , "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: Re: China loves Linux? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991112105353.045a9cc0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's what often happens, and it happened to me: Linux first, then FreeBSD. Play with the toy first, then move on to the real thing. Yeah, *some* people will stay with linux, but as those people migrate towards high-tech jobs and places with servers, they may be exposed to FreeBSD and take an interest. On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >At 04:59 PM 11/12/1999 +0000, Joseph Scott wrote: > >> I think it's much easier for FreeBSD to show >>what a makes it a neat OS when you are talking to people who are already >>familiar with unix in general. > >But it's harder to get them to convert, since what they're using is >ALREADY very much like FreeBSD. The advantages of switching are much >smaller than for, say, an NT user. Best to get them using FreeBSD from >the outset. > >--Brett > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 10: 8:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B59A14C18 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:08:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29536; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:05:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112110312.00ac69b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:05:57 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: China loves Linux? Cc: Joseph Scott , "Igor B. Bykhalo" , "-chat@FreeBSD" In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991112105353.045a9cc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And the boss says, "Linux is the market leader; heck, even *I* have heard of it. So don't go switching to this 'Freebie' stuff, whatever it is." Alas, I've had this happen at the sites of some of my clients. They've INSISTED that I not switch them to FreeBSD. I say, quit hoping that they'll switch someday; that's sour grapes. Get a foot in the door NOW. --Brett At 06:02 PM 11/12/1999 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >Here's what often happens, and it happened to me: >Linux first, then FreeBSD. Play with the toy first, then move on to the >real thing. Yeah, *some* people will stay with linux, but as those people >migrate towards high-tech jobs and places with servers, they may be >exposed to FreeBSD and take an interest. > >On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > >At 04:59 PM 11/12/1999 +0000, Joseph Scott wrote: > > > >> I think it's much easier for FreeBSD to show > >>what a makes it a neat OS when you are talking to people who are already > >>familiar with unix in general. > > > >But it's harder to get them to convert, since what they're using is > >ALREADY very much like FreeBSD. The advantages of switching are much > >smaller than for, say, an NT user. Best to get them using FreeBSD from > >the outset. > > > >--Brett > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > >-jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 10:23:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.binep.ac.ru (ns.binep.ac.ru [193.233.37.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5487A15155 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:22:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from goshik@binep.ac.ru) Received: from serv2.binep.ac.ru (serv2 [193.233.44.77]) by ns.binep.ac.ru (8.9.2/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA91867; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:26:34 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from goshik@binep.ac.ru) Reply-To: "Igor B. Bykhalo" From: "Igor B. Bykhalo" To: "Jonathon McKitrick" Cc: "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: Re: China loves Linux? Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:18:10 +0300 Message-ID: <01bf2d3a$46de7380$0000e9c1@serv2.binep.ac.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0913.2206 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0913.2200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Here's what often happens, and it happened to me: >Linux first, then FreeBSD. Play with the toy first, then move on to the >real thing. Yeah, *some* people will stay with linux, but as those people >migrate towards high-tech jobs and places with servers, they may be >exposed to FreeBSD and take an interest. :-)) ^^^^^^^^^ ... and here Jonathon blindingly starts another server|desktop holy war thread :-) /me hiding to cover... Regards, Goshik To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 10:28:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CD5715016 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:28:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11mLR4-000Klu-00; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:28:35 +0000 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:28:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: "Igor B. Bykhalo" Cc: "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: Re: China loves Linux? In-Reply-To: <01bf2d3a$46de7380$0000e9c1@serv2.binep.ac.ru> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Igor B. Bykhalo wrote: >>Here's what often happens, and it happened to me: >>Linux first, then FreeBSD. Play with the toy first, then move on to the >>real thing. Yeah, *some* people will stay with linux, but as those people >>migrate towards high-tech jobs and places with servers, they may be >>exposed to FreeBSD and take an interest. > >:-)) ^^^^^^^^^ >... and here Jonathon blindingly starts another >server|desktop holy war thread :-) That's what i do best! ;-) Wes Peter's article May 99 daemonnews convinced me enough to try FreeBSD as a desktop on my laptop. (did that make sense? ;-) > >/me hiding to cover... > >Regards, Goshik > > > -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 10:35: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF4614F69 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:34:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11mLXC-0003M3-00; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:34:54 +0000 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:34:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: Joseph Scott , "Igor B. Bykhalo" , "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: Re: China loves Linux? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991112110312.00ac69b0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >And the boss says, "Linux is the market leader; heck, even *I* have >heard of it. So don't go switching to this 'Freebie' stuff, whatever >it is." > >Alas, I've had this happen at the sites of some of my clients. They've >INSISTED that I not switch them to FreeBSD. That's a shame. I've heard stories of sysadmins installing Linux or FreeBSD servers/gateways without telling their bosses, and weeks or months later the boss says 'what's that box in the corner over there?' And the sysadmin says, 'that, sir, is the [insert un*x OS name] server that hasn't crashed in X months.' THEN they are impressed. > >I say, quit hoping that they'll switch someday; that's sour grapes. Get >a foot in the door NOW. > >--Brett > >At 06:02 PM 11/12/1999 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >>Here's what often happens, and it happened to me: >>Linux first, then FreeBSD. Play with the toy first, then move on to the >>real thing. Yeah, *some* people will stay with linux, but as those people >>migrate towards high-tech jobs and places with servers, they may be >>exposed to FreeBSD and take an interest. >> >>On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >> >> >At 04:59 PM 11/12/1999 +0000, Joseph Scott wrote: >> > >> >> I think it's much easier for FreeBSD to show >> >>what a makes it a neat OS when you are talking to people who are already >> >>familiar with unix in general. >> > >> >But it's harder to get them to convert, since what they're using is >> >ALREADY very much like FreeBSD. The advantages of switching are much >> >smaller than for, say, an NT user. Best to get them using FreeBSD from >> >the outset. >> > >> >--Brett >> > >> > >> >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >> > >> >>-jonathon > > -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 11:21:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B973214EA9 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:21:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27829; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:20:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <382C6894.E7DB92E4@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:20:52 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Igor B. Bykhalo" , "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: Re: China loves Linux? References: <01bf2cf4$81bdb880$0000e9c1@serv2.binep.ac.ru> <4.2.0.58.19991112105353.045a9cc0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:59 PM 11/12/1999 +0000, Joseph Scott wrote: > > > I think it's much easier for FreeBSD to show > >what a makes it a neat OS when you are talking to people who are already > >familiar with unix in general. > > But it's harder to get them to convert, since what they're using is > ALREADY very much like FreeBSD. The advantages of switching are much > smaller than for, say, an NT user. Best to get them using FreeBSD from > the outset. > Fair enough. I wouldn't argue that they shouldn't start with FreeBSD instead of Linux. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 11:25: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F2B914BCE for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:25:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27846; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:23:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <382C6911.D944B86@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:22:57 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Brett Glass , "Igor B. Bykhalo" , "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: Re: China loves Linux? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Here's what often happens, and it happened to me: > Linux first, then FreeBSD. Play with the toy first, then move on to the > real thing. Yeah, *some* people will stay with linux, but as those people > migrate towards high-tech jobs and places with servers, they may be > exposed to FreeBSD and take an interest. > Agreed, although in my case my only exposure to Linux before FreeBSD was some botched installs. I guess I was lucky enough to be able to use FreeBSD from the start. And I'm lucky enough to have a boss who is very happy to have me run FreeBSD on our servers. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 11:31: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5098814A2C for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:30:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27883; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:27:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <382C6A38.A7583695@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:27:52 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , "Igor B. Bykhalo" , "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: Re: China loves Linux? References: <4.2.0.58.19991112105353.045a9cc0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991112110312.00ac69b0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > And the boss says, "Linux is the market leader; heck, even *I* have > heard of it. So don't go switching to this 'Freebie' stuff, whatever > it is." > > Alas, I've had this happen at the sites of some of my clients. They've > INSISTED that I not switch them to FreeBSD. > > I say, quit hoping that they'll switch someday; that's sour grapes. Get > a foot in the door NOW. Hoping that some one moves to FreeBSD should be a proactive thing. To say that you hope so and so ( you boss maybe ) moves to FreeBSD and then not do anything about it isn't really helping. You've got to be able to strike a balance between advocating the good things about FreeBSD and not ticking someone off because you're blind to only one solution. Everyone has different backgrounds, it sounds like you've been in situations where Linux is the foot hold and they don't want to move. That's not the case for everyone, some people are willing to move to "better" solutions. Some people don't feel they need "better" solutions. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 11:31:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D73F14A2C for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:31:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11mMPh-000MML-00; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:31:13 +0000 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:31:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Joseph Scott Cc: Brett Glass , "Igor B. Bykhalo" , "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: Re: China loves Linux? In-Reply-To: <382C6894.E7DB92E4@owp.csus.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Joseph Scott wrote: > > Fair enough. I wouldn't argue that they shouldn't start with FreeBSD >instead of Linux. > So that means you *would* argue for FreeBSD or not? >-- > >Joseph Scott >joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu >Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 11:35:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3460614CCD for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:35:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27924; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:33:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <382C6B94.6B2E164C@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:33:40 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Brett Glass , "Igor B. Bykhalo" , "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: Re: China loves Linux? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Joseph Scott wrote: > > > > Fair enough. I wouldn't argue that they shouldn't start with FreeBSD > >instead of Linux. > > > > So that means you *would* argue for FreeBSD or not? > Sorry, let me see if I can say better :-) I think everyone should start out with the best unix OS of choice, FreeBSD. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 12:14:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 559E614FC2 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:14:40 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Jamie Bowden" Cc: "Brett Glass" , , Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:14:40 -0800 Message-ID: <001901bf2d4a$8d01f9d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > : > :> So? Most software companies aren't an OS monopoly using that > position to > :> force their non OS products down the throats of the world. > : > : Yes, Microsoft is a monpoly in the Alice-in-Wonderland > world where Netscape > :Navigator competes with Windows but Macintoshes don't. > > Reread the findings. Netscape does not compete with Windows, Netscape > attempted to compete with IE, and M$ killed Netscape through the abuse of > it's OS monopoly. Aren't you forgetting the part about how Netscape was supposedly trying to make Windows irrelevant? Is that not competition? (See findings 72, 76, and 77) Aren't you forgetting the part about how Netscape became unable to compete with IE because of it's loss of market share? So a mass of people using the same browser is fine if it's Netscape, but wrong if it's IE. (See 89, 361, 362) Before you ask me to reread the findings, perhaps you should read them. > :> The DoJ isn't > :> using Joe Programmers email against microsoft, they're using Chairman > :> Gates', and his cadre of president's and vice-president's mail against > :> them. If they don't represent the reasons and motives behind > M$, who the > :> hell does? > : > : Really, no one. That's why, in general, the standard for > evaluating the > :reasons for a businesses' conduct are essentially that of the > 'best possible > :reason'. In other words, to conclude that an action was > specifically taken > :solely for an anticompetitive purpose, it generally must be > established that > :there's no other legitimate business purpose why the action > could have been > :taken. > > You're high. It doesn't matter if there are other accompanying reasons. > Abuse of power is abuse of power. They crushed Netscape for no other > reason than because Netscape didn't want to play in MS's sandbox. Yes, and they crushed it by putting out a superior product. What is wrong with that? > It's > the same thing they attempted to do to Quicken years ago. Yes, and the failed. Do you know why? Because Quicken was _better_ than Microsoft's product. Even Microsoft can't force consumers to buy something that doesn't do what they want. > MS has not > changed, and will not change unless forced. Of course not. And thanks to them, we have an incredibly competitive computer software industry. > They are getting their just > deserts. The stuff coming out of the Caldera/DRI suit is just more > showing of how MS either buys it's competition, or leverages it's power to > make them irrelevant. That is in fact harmful to the indusrty and > consumers. Harmful to the industry? You mean harmful to companies that try to sell inferior products and technology. Harmful to consumers? Please -- show me any evidence of monopoly harm to consumers. (Do you know what monopoly harm is? Or am I wasting my breath?) Show me reduced output. Show me higher prices. Show me reduced quality. All I see is intense competition. > : Even individuals often explain their motivations > inaccurately. This is why > :we really don't have any 'pure intent' crimes, except perhaps > for attempted > :assassination. > > Fortunately, corporates are virtual entities whose mind exists on memos > and peices of e-mail. There's no ambiguity in one executive telling > another executive that they are going to kill the competition ('We need to > smile when we pull the trigger' in ref. to Novell). Yes, there is an ambiguity, because that person is not the company. And in any event, killing the competition is what companies are supposed to do. Our antritrust laws exist to _ensure_ the most vigorous competition possible. > Judge Jackson has determined that: > > 1) Microst has an Operating Systems Monopoly in the intel x86 based PC > market. > > 2) They have used that monopoly to remove competition on the application > level. > > 3) That's a violation of Sherman. > > This ain't rocket science. No, it's an incredible oversimplification. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 13:47:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C7D614E52 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:47:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01794; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:47:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112143854.045ee150@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:47:01 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Jamie Bowden" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: , In-Reply-To: <001901bf2d4a$8d01f9d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:14 PM 11/12/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > You're high. It doesn't matter if there are other accompanying reasons. > > Abuse of power is abuse of power. They crushed Netscape for no other > > reason than because Netscape didn't want to play in MS's sandbox. > > Yes, and they crushed it by putting out a superior product. What is wrong >with that? What's wrong with that is that it's a lie. IE is not a superior product. Witness the devastating security holes -- approximately one per WEEK -- which are being found in it. Netscape was crushed via predatory pricing and foreclosure of distribution channels for its products. The Findings of Fact, available at http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm document this in great detail. > > It's > > the same thing they attempted to do to Quicken years ago. > > Yes, and the failed. Do you know why? Because Quicken was _better_ than >Microsoft's product. Even Microsoft can't force consumers to buy something >that doesn't do what they want. Had Microsoft engaged in the same tactics it used to destroy Netscape, it could have made Money succeed. However, it did not see Quicken as a threat to its operating system monopoly, so it did not apply the full brunt of its monopoly leverage. Had Microsoft bundled Money with every copy of Windows, locked Quicken out of the market, and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on Money, you can bet the outcome would have been different. > > MS has not > > changed, and will not change unless forced. > > Of course not. And thanks to them, we have an incredibly competitive >computer software industry. No -- thanks to them, many companies have opted NOT to compete, and consumers have suffered as a result. > > They are getting their just > > deserts. The stuff coming out of the Caldera/DRI suit is just more > > showing of how MS either buys it's competition, or leverages it's power to > > make them irrelevant. That is in fact harmful to the indusrty and > > consumers. > > Harmful to the industry? You mean harmful to companies that try to sell >inferior products and technology. Microsoft is most especially harmful to companies which develop SUPERIOR products and technology. Say, David: you wouldn't happen to be part of Microsoft's "astroturf" team, would you? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 13:54:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3742314E52 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:54:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:54:40 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Jamie Bowden" Cc: , Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:54:40 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf2d58$84fb58e0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991112143854.045ee150@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Say, David: you wouldn't happen to be part of Microsoft's > "astroturf" team, > would you? When reason doesn't work, roll out the ad hominem. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 14:29:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C24C514C2F for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:29:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02281; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:28:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112152807.045af910@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:28:53 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Jamie Bowden" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: , In-Reply-To: <000101bf2d58$84fb58e0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19991112143854.045ee150@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:54 PM 11/12/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > When reason doesn't work, roll out the ad hominem. Well, your reason clearly wasn't working, so it seemed about time. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 14:57:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us (taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us [165.29.134.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD79B14FDC for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:57:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from erickw@taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us) Received: from localhost (erickw@localhost) by taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us (8.9.0/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA14849; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:02:04 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:02:04 -0600 (CST) From: Erick White To: Brett Glass Cc: Joseph Scott , "Igor B. Bykhalo" , "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: Re: China loves Linux? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991112105353.045a9cc0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am not sure I would say that is harder to get them to convert as it were. I like and Run both Linux and FreeBSD. I think that the experiance in any UNIX is a good thing per se, and if they have a background in a REAL operating system, then they will be less... Frightened, shall we say, when they are familiar with ( UNIX flavor X here). I think that, for the UNIX comunity in general that any flavor that is starting to be indoctrinated into the public conscience is good for the whole. Your Friendly UNIX Advocate: Erick On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:59 PM 11/12/1999 +0000, Joseph Scott wrote: > > > I think it's much easier for FreeBSD to show > >what a makes it a neat OS when you are talking to people who are already > >familiar with unix in general. > > But it's harder to get them to convert, since what they're using is > ALREADY very much like FreeBSD. The advantages of switching are much > smaller than for, say, an NT user. Best to get them using FreeBSD from > the outset. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 16:31:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A69D15092 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:31:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a112.otenet.gr [195.167.115.112]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA25077 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 02:31:21 +0200 (EET) Received: (qmail 4154 invoked by uid 1001); 12 Nov 1999 23:07:30 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: China loves Linux? References: <4.2.0.58.19991112105353.045a9cc0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991112110312.00ac69b0@localhost> <382C6A38.A7583695@owp.csus.edu> From: Giorgos Keramidas Date: 13 Nov 1999 01:07:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: Joseph Scott's message of "Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:27:52 +0000" Message-ID: <864sermhqn.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "20 Minutes to Nikko" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph Scott writes: ... > Everyone has different backgrounds, it sounds like you've been in > situations where Linux is the foot hold and they don't want to move. > That's not the case for everyone, some people are willing to move to > "better" solutions. Some people don't feel they need "better" > solutions. What one should do depends on one's definition of "better", of course. In an environment where most people are acquainted with Linux, but they lack basic knowledge about FreeBSD, or have grown too dependent on some very Linux-specific feature (i.e. it's SysV style of rc-scripts), it might take a lot more effort to educate them, than just _stay_ with what one's current setup is. I am not a linux-advocate here, but some times the education of staff might to use FreeBSD instead of what they already know might be a reason for not using *BSD at all. Besides, if it works fine (regardless of *BSD or Linux) and you have no apparently good reason for switching, why get into the extra hassle? -- Giorgos Keramidas, "What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing." [Aristotle] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 16:31:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC2915094 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:31:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a112.otenet.gr [195.167.115.112]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA25072 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 02:31:21 +0200 (EET) Received: (qmail 4243 invoked by uid 1001); 12 Nov 1999 23:31:05 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" References: <001901bf2d4a$8d01f9d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> From: Giorgos Keramidas Date: 13 Nov 1999 01:31:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: "David Schwartz"'s message of "Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:14:40 -0800" Message-ID: <861z9vmgna.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Lines: 65 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "20 Minutes to Nikko" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David Schwartz" writes: > Yes, and they crushed it by putting out a superior product. What is wrong > with that? Nothing, but IE is not a superior product. Superiority is never defined as taking advantage of `internal' knowledge of the OS, in order to make a program load faster. For instance, half if not more of the IE libraries (aka DLLs in the Windows world) are loaded because they are part of the base OS of MS. That makes IE `seem' to load faster than other Web browsers, because a large part of it is already loaded. This is not superiority, it's plain good ol' cheating. And more examples like this one can be found at closer inspection, like those rumours that non-MS products are offered the great honour of a few extra wait-states by the scheduler of the OS in question, which is another way of making all the _others_ look like they're tooo slooow when compared to ma' MS's finely intergrated products, etc. etc. Superiority is also a funny word to use for a browser that runs on one and only OS, when that other inferior browser runs on a dozen different platforms. Ok, Motif sucks in X11, and I would prefer Mozilla to be using Troll's Qt library or even GTK+ if that matters at all, but then again who am I to push my own humble opinion on Mozilla crowd? > > MS has not changed, and will not change unless forced. > > Of course not. And thanks to them, we have an incredibly competitive > computer software industry. Competition is another truly controversial subject, especially when based on what I called _internal_ knowledge (see above). > Harmful to consumers? Please -- show me any evidence of monopoly harm > to consumers. (Do you know what monopoly harm is? Or am I wasting my > breath?) Show me reduced output. Show me higher prices. Show me > reduced quality. Compare the price of running Netscape on *BSD, with that of running IE on Windows. Both browsers are free, but with IE you find yourself in a lack of choises. You absolutely _must_ use Windows to have IE running, even if you would prefer to run *BSD as your primary desktop OS. Monopoly harm begins when you start to get your choises limited, and the choise of one's operating system is IMHO a very fundamental one. > And in any event, killing the competition is what companies are > supposed to do. Our antritrust laws exist to _ensure_ the most > vigorous competition possible. Forgive me if I am wrong, but companies are not supposed to "kill" competition. Instead, they are supposed to create superior products, in order to be in the head of it. If someone finds the resources, the will, or the ideas to create the next superior product, other companies are certainly not supposed to "kill" anyone, but rather try to create something of their own with the quality that will ensure their superiority and give them a larger market share. Perhaps this would seem too idealistic in a world like ours though. So much for Microsoft superiority. Cheers. -- Giorgos Keramidas, "What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing." [Aristotle] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 16:46:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC6A1507A for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:46:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:46:27 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:46:27 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf2d70$84b9a810$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <861z9vmgna.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "David Schwartz" writes: > > > Yes, and they crushed it by putting out a superior product. > What is wrong > > with that? > > Nothing, but IE is not a superior product. Superiority is never defined > as taking advantage of `internal' knowledge of the OS, in order to make > a program load faster. Ahh, I see. Superior has nothing to do with user experience. Superior is to be judged by experts according to arcane principles. That's much better than letting the market decide. > For instance, half if not more of the IE > libraries (aka DLLs in the Windows world) are loaded because they are > part of the base OS of MS. That makes IE `seem' to load faster than > other Web browsers, because a large part of it is already loaded. This > is not superiority, it's plain good ol' cheating. Cheating is a great way to make a product better. All the user cares about is the user experience. If integrating IE into Windows improves the user experience, then that's a legitimate reason to do it. You may consider some of Microsoft's innovations cheating, but that's not your decision to make. Go ahead, take memory management out of the OS. Take disk compression out. How far do you want to set us back? > And more examples > like this one can be found at closer inspection, like those rumours that > non-MS products are offered the great honour of a few extra wait-states > by the scheduler of the OS in question, which is another way of making > all the _others_ look like they're tooo slooow when compared to ma' MS's > finely intergrated products, etc. etc. Look, it's Microsoft's operating system. If they didn't want to sell it at all, no one could force them to. If you like it, use it. If not, don't. But do you really want the government telling Microsoft how to design its products? > Superiority is also a funny word to use for a browser that runs on one > and only OS, when that other inferior browser runs on a dozen different > platforms. Ok, Motif sucks in X11, and I would prefer Mozilla to be > using Troll's Qt library or even GTK+ if that matters at all, but then > again who am I to push my own humble opinion on Mozilla crowd? Look, IE is superior. Period. Anyone who has used both browsers, and who is honest, will tell you that. There have been dozens of browser shootouts. Pretty much every single one of them (after IE4 was released) has concluded the same thing. The market concluded the same thing. > > > MS has not changed, and will not change unless forced. > > > > Of course not. And thanks to them, we have an incredibly competitive > > computer software industry. > > Competition is another truly controversial subject, especially when > based on what I called _internal_ knowledge (see above). A company should use every resource at its command to provide the best products possible to its customers and the most competition. Technological leverage is the bedrock of pretty much every high tech company. They all ask "how can we take the technology, expertise, and knowledge we have and use it to make new and better products". If that is a crime, then innovation is over. > > Harmful to consumers? Please -- show me any evidence of monopoly harm > > to consumers. (Do you know what monopoly harm is? Or am I wasting my > > breath?) Show me reduced output. Show me higher prices. Show me > > reduced quality. > > Compare the price of running Netscape on *BSD, with that of running IE > on Windows. Both browsers are free, but with IE you find yourself in a > lack of choises. You absolutely _must_ use Windows to have IE running, > even if you would prefer to run *BSD as your primary desktop OS. Neither Netscape nor FreeBSD are commercial products. I'm talking about comparing Windows to other commercial operating systems. Do you think you could start a company, build an proprietary operating system from the ground up, and sell it for prices that compete with Microsoft? Of course not. Microsoft can only do so because its enormous volume gives it tremendous economies of scale. That makes it nearly impossibe to compete with Microsoft. This is how competition is _supposed_ to work. > Monopoly harm begins when you start to get your choises limited, and the > choise of one's operating system is IMHO a very fundamental one. But you have the choice of numerous operating systems. Most people choose Windows simply because they find it superior for the tasks they need to solve. Build a better operating system, and nothing Bill Gates can do will stop you from ultimately triumphing in the market. But Microsoft is powerful and is a fiendish competitor. This is a successful market. > > And in any event, killing the competition is what companies are > > supposed to do. Our antritrust laws exist to _ensure_ the most > > vigorous competition possible. > > Forgive me if I am wrong, but companies are not supposed to "kill" > competition. Yes, they are. They are supposed to compete so effectively that their competitors have to provide better products at lower prices or go out of business. That's a strong, competitive economy. > Instead, they are supposed to create superior products, in > order to be in the head of it. If someone finds the resources, the > will, or the ideas to create the next superior product, other companies > are certainly not supposed to "kill" anyone, but rather try to create > something of their own with the quality that will ensure their > superiority and give them a larger market share. Perhaps this would > seem too idealistic in a world like ours though. There is nothing a company can do to stop consumers from buying a better product at a lower price. The hard part is producing a better product for a lower price. I'm going to try to get some essays on the Findings of Fact up at http://youknow.youwant.to/ms ASAP. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 16:51: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (ith1-379.twcny.rr.com [24.24.11.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32ED814C2A for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:50:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc26@tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net) Received: (from cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04928; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:50:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc26) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:50:29 -0500 From: Cliff Crawford To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Message-ID: <19991112195029.B4645@cornell.edu> Reply-To: cjc26@cornell.edu References: <001901bf2d4a$8d01f9d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <861z9vmgna.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <861z9vmgna.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Giorgos Keramidas menulis: > > Superiority is also a funny word to use for a browser that runs on one > and only OS, IE runs on both Windows and Mac OS. -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- Shall she hear the lion's roar? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 16:53: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mvfx.com (mvfx-gw.mvfx.com [207.211.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E4015083 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:52:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mvfx.com) Received: from mobiledan.mvfx.com (mobiledan.mvfx.com [10.62.6.38]) by mvfx.com (8.9.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA54310 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:52:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mobiledan.mvfx.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mobiledan.mvfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA45535 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:52:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:52:58 -0800 From: Dan Piponi To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Message-ID: <19991112165257.A45482@mobiledan.mvfx.com> References: <001901bf2d4a$8d01f9d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <861z9vmgna.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <861z9vmgna.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE Organization: Manex Visual Effects Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I did a bit of economic theory once upon a time - from a purely mathematical perspective (so it wasn't exactly realpolitik). One of the theorems you prove is that a capitalistic economy is 'Pareto optimal' - optimal in the sense that you can't make *everyone* better off at the same time assuming certain axioms. Some theorists have seen this as the fundamental justification of capitalism. One of these axioms is that you have a free market - if I sell product X to A for price a and to B for price b but a; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:03:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpiazza@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9FE76121; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:03:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:03:35 -0800 From: Chris Piazza To: Cliff Crawford Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Message-ID: <19991112170335.A644@norn.ca.eu.org> References: <001901bf2d4a$8d01f9d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <861z9vmgna.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> <19991112195029.B4645@cornell.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <19991112195029.B4645@cornell.edu>; from cjc26@cornell.edu on Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 07:50:29PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 07:50:29PM -0500, Cliff Crawford wrote: > * Giorgos Keramidas menulis: > > > > Superiority is also a funny word to use for a browser that runs on one > > and only OS, > > IE runs on both Windows and Mac OS. IE runs on Windows 9x, MacOS, Windows NT, Solaris, and HPUX. -Chris -- cpiazza@home.net cpiazza@FreeBSD.org Abbotsford, BC, Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 17: 6:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (ith1-379.twcny.rr.com [24.24.11.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606BC150DC for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:05:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc26@tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net) Received: (from cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04993; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 20:05:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc26) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 20:05:35 -0500 From: Cliff Crawford To: Chris Piazza Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Message-ID: <19991112200535.C4645@cornell.edu> Reply-To: cjc26@cornell.edu References: <001901bf2d4a$8d01f9d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <861z9vmgna.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> <19991112195029.B4645@cornell.edu> <19991112170335.A644@norn.ca.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <19991112170335.A644@norn.ca.eu.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Chris Piazza menulis: > On Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 07:50:29PM -0500, Cliff Crawford wrote: > > * Giorgos Keramidas menulis: > > > > > > Superiority is also a funny word to use for a browser that runs on one > > > and only OS, > > > > IE runs on both Windows and Mac OS. > > IE runs on Windows 9x, MacOS, Windows NT, Solaris, and HPUX. Solaris and HPUX too? Cool. :) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- Shall she hear the lion's roar? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 17:31: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F3EA150AE for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:31:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA93361; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:30:59 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:30:59 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Cliff Crawford Cc: Chris Piazza , Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: <19991112200535.C4645@cornell.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Cliff Crawford wrote: > * Chris Piazza menulis: > > On Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 07:50:29PM -0500, Cliff Crawford wrote: > > > * Giorgos Keramidas menulis: > > > > > > > > Superiority is also a funny word to use for a browser that runs on one > > > > and only OS, > > > > > > IE runs on both Windows and Mac OS. > > > > IE runs on Windows 9x, MacOS, Windows NT, Solaris, and HPUX. > > Solaris and HPUX too? Cool. :) I thought they had given up on the UNIX variants. Runs is the wrong word to describe the Slowaris version. Crashes with great speed, repeatablility, and vigor describes my experience with it. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 21:30:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5D714F45 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:30:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05084; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:30:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112222541.0431f140@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:30:32 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Giorgos Keramidas" , From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: <000101bf2d70$84b9a810$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <861z9vmgna.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:46 PM 11/12/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > Ahh, I see. Superior has nothing to do with user experience. Superior is to >be judged by experts according to arcane principles. That's much better than >letting the market decide. The market had no opportunity to decide, as Judge Jackson has handily pointed out. I could comment on some of your other bogus assertions as well, but I suspect that there is no point. I've reviewed the messages you've posted in this and other forums during the past six months (Web search engines are VERY handy for this!), and they're 100% pro-NT and pro-Microsoft. In some, you make rather lame excuses for serious security holes in Microsoft products; in others, you bash Linux, FreeBSD, and other non-Microsoft OSes. Folks, I think that what we have here is a "Barkto" -- a Microsoft mole. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 12 22:58:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from parsons.rh.rit.edu (d116-l055.rh.rit.edu [129.21.116.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC45714EEE for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:58:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mfisher@csh.rit.edu) Received: from mfisher (helo=localhost) by parsons.rh.rit.edu with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11mX8Z-0006LV-00; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:58:15 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:58:13 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Fisher X-Sender: mfisher@parsons.rh.rit.edu To: Brett Glass Cc: David Schwartz , Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991112222541.0431f140@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > I could comment on some of your other bogus assertions as well, but I suspect > that there is no point. I've reviewed the messages you've posted in this and other > forums during the past six months (Web search engines are VERY handy for this!), and > they're 100% pro-NT and pro-Microsoft. In some, you make rather lame excuses for > serious security holes in Microsoft products; in others, you bash Linux, FreeBSD, > and other non-Microsoft OSes. I see that you are neither able to post URLs to support your claims nor enable word-wrap on your editor. I can also see why you enjoy the ad hominem; it's such fun. :) Oh yeah, what's wrong with bashing GNU/Linux? - -- Mike "The man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, 'Limit yourself'; it is he who is truly the impractical utopian." -- Murray Rothbard -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0i Comment: Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBOC0MBgNoiUfuQq8NEQJBNQCg0FyOwWUtpZ7o5igh9KTc8zcxODoAoP8l VnCjsnX95ygy7U/+u3Gnd9Dk =8A49 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 1:55:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A2C7C150FF for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:55:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 1782 invoked from network); 13 Nov 1999 09:55:05 -0000 Received: from userbh89.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.143.54) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 1999 09:55:05 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA00744; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:47:35 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:47:35 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: David Schwartz Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Message-ID: <19991113094734.A317@marder-1> References: <861z9vmgna.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> <000101bf2d70$84b9a810$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <000101bf2d70$84b9a810$021d85d1@youwant.to> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 04:46:27PM -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > "David Schwartz" writes: > > > > > Yes, and they crushed it by putting out a superior product. > > What is wrong > > > with that? > > > > Nothing, but IE is not a superior product. Superiority is never defined > > as taking advantage of `internal' knowledge of the OS, in order to make > > a program load faster. > > Ahh, I see. Superior has nothing to do with user > experience. Superior is to be judged by experts according to arcane > principles. That's much better than letting the market decide. > The point is that M$ *didn't* let the market decide. IE is installed by default with every copy of Windows and the conditions that M$ imposed on OEMs regarding not pre-installing another browser, and/or diabling IE, are well documented in the Judge's findings. Similar tactics were used with ISPs and AOL in respect of their access software. That is not letting the market decide. Whilst those participating in these lists are quite happy to go to the "trouble" of installing an OS and apps of choice Joe Average PC user is just going to use whatever is pre-installed when (s)he buys the PC. That is point that the Judge made; IE's market share rocketed because it was there when the PC was switched on and as the vast majority of PC users are not "geeks" won't (possibly don't know how to) replace IE with NS, even if they believe it to be better. > > For instance, half if not more of the IE > > libraries (aka DLLs in the Windows world) are loaded because they are > > part of the base OS of MS. That makes IE `seem' to load faster than > > other Web browsers, because a large part of it is already loaded. This > > is not superiority, it's plain good ol' cheating. > > Cheating is a great way to make a product better. All the user cares about > is the user experience. If integrating IE into Windows improves the user > experience, then that's a legitimate reason to do it. > > You may consider some of Microsoft's innovations cheating, but that's not > your decision to make. > > Go ahead, take memory management out of the OS. Take disk compression out. > How far do you want to set us back? > > > And more examples > > like this one can be found at closer inspection, like those rumours that > > non-MS products are offered the great honour of a few extra wait-states > > by the scheduler of the OS in question, which is another way of making > > all the _others_ look like they're tooo slooow when compared to ma' MS's > > finely intergrated products, etc. etc. > > Look, it's Microsoft's operating system. If they didn't want to sell it at > all, no one could force them to. If you like it, use it. If not, don't. But > do you really want the government telling Microsoft how to design its > products? > > > Superiority is also a funny word to use for a browser that runs on one > > and only OS, when that other inferior browser runs on a dozen different > > platforms. Ok, Motif sucks in X11, and I would prefer Mozilla to be > > using Troll's Qt library or even GTK+ if that matters at all, but then > > again who am I to push my own humble opinion on Mozilla crowd? > > Look, IE is superior. Period. Anyone who has used both browsers, and who is > honest, will tell you that. There have been dozens of browser shootouts. > Pretty much every single one of them (after IE4 was released) has concluded > the same thing. The market concluded the same thing. > > > > > MS has not changed, and will not change unless forced. > > > > > > Of course not. And thanks to them, we have an incredibly competitive > > > computer software industry. > > > > Competition is another truly controversial subject, especially when > > based on what I called _internal_ knowledge (see above). > > A company should use every resource at its command to provide the best > products possible to its customers and the most competition. Technological > leverage is the bedrock of pretty much every high tech company. They all ask > "how can we take the technology, expertise, and knowledge we have and use it > to make new and better products". If that is a crime, then innovation is > over. > > > > Harmful to consumers? Please -- show me any evidence of monopoly harm > > > to consumers. (Do you know what monopoly harm is? Or am I wasting my > > > breath?) Show me reduced output. Show me higher prices. Show me > > > reduced quality. > > > > Compare the price of running Netscape on *BSD, with that of running IE > > on Windows. Both browsers are free, but with IE you find yourself in a > > lack of choises. You absolutely _must_ use Windows to have IE running, > > even if you would prefer to run *BSD as your primary desktop OS. > > Neither Netscape nor FreeBSD are commercial products. I'm talking about > comparing Windows to other commercial operating systems. > > Do you think you could start a company, build an proprietary operating > system from the ground up, and sell it for prices that compete with > Microsoft? Of course not. Microsoft can only do so because its enormous > volume gives it tremendous economies of scale. That makes it nearly > impossibe to compete with Microsoft. > > This is how competition is _supposed_ to work. > > > Monopoly harm begins when you start to get your choises limited, and the > > choise of one's operating system is IMHO a very fundamental one. > > But you have the choice of numerous operating systems. Most > people choose Windows simply because they find it superior for > the tasks they need to solve. Wrong. Most people use Windows because it is virtually impossible to buy a PC without it pre-installed. M$ has created a sheep-like (or should that be lemming-like?) mentality amongst PC users whereby they just follow the crowd and don't make objective decisions. > Build a better operating system, > and nothing Bill Gates can do will stop you from ultimately > triumphing in the market. But Microsoft is powerful and is a > fiendish competitor. This is a successful market. > OS/2 Warp is a superior OS to Windows but M$ *did* stop it triumphing in the market firstly by announcing, when Warp was released, that a 32-bit Windows (95) would be out in a couple of months (which turned out to be 18 months, and largely 16-bit) and by refusing to grant licences to OEMs unless they installed it exclusively on *every* PC they shipped. This is abuse of a monopoly postition, something the Judge continually found M$ guilty of. > > > And in any event, killing the competition is what companies are > > > supposed to do. Our antritrust laws exist to _ensure_ the most > > > vigorous competition possible. > > > > Forgive me if I am wrong, but companies are not supposed to "kill" > > competition. > > Yes, they are. They are supposed to compete so effectively that their > competitors have to provide better products at lower prices or go out of > business. That's a strong, competitive economy. > > > Instead, they are supposed to create superior products, in > > order to be in the head of it. If someone finds the resources, the > > will, or the ideas to create the next superior product, other companies > > are certainly not supposed to "kill" anyone, but rather try to create > > something of their own with the quality that will ensure their > > superiority and give them a larger market share. Perhaps this would > > seem too idealistic in a world like ours though. > > There is nothing a company can do to stop consumers from > buying a better product at a lower price. The hard part is producing > a better product for a lower price. > > I'm going to try to get some essays on the Findings of Fact up at > http://youknow.youwant.to/ms ASAP. > > DS > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 1:55:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA0E115101 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:55:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 1777 invoked from network); 13 Nov 1999 09:55:03 -0000 Received: from userbh89.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.143.54) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 1999 09:55:03 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA00754; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:48:09 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:48:08 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Cliff Crawford Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Message-ID: <19991113094808.B317@marder-1> References: <001901bf2d4a$8d01f9d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <861z9vmgna.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> <19991112195029.B4645@cornell.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991112195029.B4645@cornell.edu> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 07:50:29PM -0500, Cliff Crawford wrote: > * Giorgos Keramidas menulis: > > > > Superiority is also a funny word to use for a browser that runs on one > > and only OS, > > IE runs on both Windows and Mac OS. > Solaris too. > > -- > cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ > -><- Shall she hear the lion's roar? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 2: 7:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us (taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us [165.29.134.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5D7150FF for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 02:07:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from erickw@taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us) Received: from localhost (erickw@localhost) by taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us (8.9.0/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA16341; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 05:12:38 -0600 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 05:12:38 -0600 (CST) From: Erick White To: Brett Glass Cc: David Schwartz , Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991112222541.0431f140@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:46 PM 11/12/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > > Ahh, I see. Superior has nothing to do with user experience. Superior is to > >be judged by experts according to arcane principles. That's much better than > >letting the market decide. > > The market had no opportunity to decide, as Judge Jackson has handily pointed out. > > I could comment on some of your other bogus assertions as well, but I suspect > that there is no point. I've reviewed the messages you've posted in this and other > forums during the past six months (Web search engines are VERY handy for this!), and > they're 100% pro-NT and pro-Microsoft. In some, you make rather lame excuses for > serious security holes in Microsoft products; in others, you bash Linux, FreeBSD, > and other non-Microsoft OSes. > > Folks, I think that what we have here is a "Barkto" -- a Microsoft mole. > > --Brett Glass For your information it is our descision to make. I am all for the competition that is going on. I don't agree or trust Microsoft. The fact is though, we in the consumer department do have the right to decide what is what. Now since we are the ones giving them money, if we use windows, we descide what is cheating. Now I use windows, becouse I simply don't have all the commercial support that is needed for my Linux and FreeBSD, that is the only drawback, no commercial support as of yet. Some are starting to realize this. But I have diverged from what I was stating here. We, as the consumer market for operating systems and browsers have the say. Microsoft makes theirs supperior in the consumer poles becouse A) It is given on the basic platform. and B) it has been my experiance most users are frightened by technology and choice and they don't care about all the things we do, the only want it to run fast, and be simple, not alot about choices. I am talking people in general. My mother is like this... Buttons even frighten her, people are afraid of change without directors. Well they have had the wrong one. Those of us know better than to blindly trust him would say, and see that what Pa Bill is doing here is trying to incucate those who know knothing better. This isn't saying this is supperior, this is saying that they hold the golden rule of arts and sciences. He Who has the gold Makes the Rules We changing the rules. You see I favor two Unix operating systems. Linux and *BSD. They are UNIX, much better then Microsoft windows in stability and programming and bug fixes and constantly evolving. However if you want to get down to it, if the original UNIX programmers had not thought PC's were toys, and actually took their time to write for it originaly, then.. guess what good neighbors? Thats right... We would all be running UNIX in spite of the Xwars that went on. We wouldn't had anything other than programs that compiled from ol Billy Boy. So you see it isn't that there is the competition, that had started from him taking over so to speak. He just got the popular architechure under his thumb first hand... He didn't get the supperior system. So look at it this way... we should all be running UNIX anyway. Your Friendly Neigborhood UNIX advocate: Erick > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 5:44: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B0714CAB for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 05:43:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.0.4] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.092 #1) id 11mbmg-0002Xe-00; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:55:58 +0000 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.092 #1) id 11mbmf-0001Jg-00; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:55:57 +0000 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:55:57 +0000 From: Ben Smithurst To: David Scheidt Cc: Cliff Crawford , Chris Piazza , Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Message-ID: <19991113115557.A5052@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <19991112200535.C4645@cornell.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt wrote: > I thought they had given up on the UNIX variants. Runs is the wrong word to > describe the Slowaris version. Crashes with great speed, repeatablility, > and vigor describes my experience with it. How is that any different from the Windows version then? -- Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 7: 0:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF60214A31 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 07:00:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.43]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA665A for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:01:26 -0500 Message-ID: <382D7C8F.1556B2BD@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:58:23 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: it,es-CO MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My $0.000002; I would have never imagined that someone that claims to have read the Facts of Findings can still say anything positive about Microsoft. The most unfair thing in this Microsoft situation is that when you buy a new computer you are FORCED to buy W98 and Microsoft Internet Explorer. If you want to register your computer (in order to have a decent warranty) you also have to accept Microsoft's license. There's nothing competitive in that. Now that Staroffice is free, I guess Microsoft will find a way to integrate their OS with Microsoft Office.. Support?... What is that? neither Microsoft or SONY has come in with a report that explains why I have to reinstall W98 after less than three months of use. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 8:20:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEFA115157 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:20:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08001; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:19:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991113091537.040a8340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:19:35 -0700 To: Mike Fisher From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: David Schwartz , Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991112222541.0431f140@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:58 AM 11/13/1999 -0500, Mike Fisher wrote: >I see that you are neither able to post URLs to support your claims I see that you're unable to use a search engine.... >nor enable word-wrap on your editor. ...nor a mail reader which can handle a message that's wrapped at 80 columns. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 8:21: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D841015157 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:21:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07997; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:19:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991113091425.043ba180@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:15:26 -0700 To: Erick White From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: David Schwartz , Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991112222541.0431f140@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:12 AM 11/13/1999 -0600, Erick White wrote: > For your information it is our descision to make. And We Are Borg. You Will Be Assimilated. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 8:58:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BFB914D82 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:57:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.0.4] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.092 #1) id 11mgUX-0002nR-00; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:57:33 +0000 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.092 #1) id 11mgUW-0000C1-00; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:57:32 +0000 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:57:32 +0000 From: Ben Smithurst To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Message-ID: <19991113165732.A663@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <4.2.0.58.19991112222541.0431f140@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991113091537.040a8340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991113091537.040a8340@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > ...nor a mail reader which can handle a message that's wrapped at > 80 columns. Your previous message wasn't wrapped at 80 columns (more like 90), so I don't know what your point is. Do you have a point at all, in fact? -- Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 9:15:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F35F14D82 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.36]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA678A; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:16:23 -0500 Message-ID: <382D9671.9F2AE1B6@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:48:49 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: it,es-CO MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" References: <4.2.0.58.19991112222541.0431f140@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991113091425.043ba180@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Maybe I got some words wrong but the BSD cry could be: "We shall go on 'till the end. We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be...We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, and in the sea. We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We will never surrender..." (Churchill's speech for those Iron Maiden impaired :) cheers, Pedro. Brett Glass wrote: > > At 05:12 AM 11/13/1999 -0600, Erick White wrote: > > > For your information it is our descision to make. > > And We Are Borg. You Will Be Assimilated. > > --Brett Glass > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 10: 9:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A6114D1C for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:08:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10129; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:08:53 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA35350; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:08:52 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:08:52 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Cliff Crawford Cc: Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Quotation Message-ID: <19991113190852.B34741@bitbox.follo.net> References: <38285F15.A656E35B@cstone.net> <000a01bf2ae1$08b6a920$021d85d1@youwant.to> <19991109120213.A7365@greycat.com> <19991109151713.B32826@cornell.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <19991109151713.B32826@cornell.edu>; from cjc26@cornell.edu on Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 03:17:13PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 03:17:13PM -0500, Cliff Crawford wrote: > * Dann Lunsford menulis: > > On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 10:34:19AM -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > system is distributed for free. Those that write enhancements to it are > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > required to make those available to everyone. This has resulted in a > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > Sadly, he misses the whole point of BSD. The beauty of it is that you can > > > make enhancements to it without anyone pointing a gun to your head. > > > > Hmm. I think that Frankenburg would be unlikely to make such a mistake, given > > his history. Maybe the reporter dropped a "not" between the "are" and the > > "required". Wouldn't be the first time something like that happened... > > Anybody got Frankenburg's e-mail? Maybe we should ask him. > > The sentence following is "This has resulted in a significant amount of > innovations and new capabilites", which wouldn't make sense in that > context (him saying that those who write enhancements are NOT required > to make them available to everyone). No, that makes PERFECT sense. You are falling in the GPL trap of thinking that the same development happens when you are forced to give away the results of that development and when you are not. Commerical developers write code to make money. If they can keep strategic changes to themselves, that allows them to make a profit. However, when a commercial developer is working on a sourcebase, he is also likely to make a number of non-strategic improvements - improvements that do not directly bring profit, but is just necessary for utilitarian reasons - he needs the results of the changes, but don't need to sell the changes themselves. It is rational to give these changes back. The developer actually PROFITS from giving these changes back, in the following ways: (1) He does not have to re-integrate them himself when a new version of the sourcebase he is developing from comes along (2) He gains sympathy in the development scene for that sourcebase (3) He makes the sourcebase he is working from more attractive to others, so it is more likely other people will use it (and thus do development on it), so he'll be getting improvements (which could possibly get him to not have to write things himself) "for free". Conclusion: The BSD license is, in a world where people are behaving rationally, better at producing free software than the GPL. Of course, if you have to count in irrational kids that are afraid of being 'exploited', the end result might be different. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 11:47: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 937FE14E57; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:46:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA27357; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 00:42:36 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 00:42:36 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: CGI PHP4 Port In Progress Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wrote a simple port for PHP4 Beta 2 for a command line version of PHP. I haven't even tried to use it yet to create HTML as I don't really know PHP yet. If you are interested in checking/testing this out, drop me a line and I will send it to you. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells/ Jason Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 12:44:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E46B614CF2 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:44:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:44:54 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Giorgos Keramidas" , Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:44:54 -0800 Message-ID: <002501bf2e17$f06946e0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991112222541.0431f140@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 04:46 PM 11/12/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > > Ahh, I see. Superior has nothing to do with user > experience. Superior is to > >be judged by experts according to arcane principles. That's much > better than > >letting the market decide. > > The market had no opportunity to decide, as Judge Jackson has > handily pointed out. > > I could comment on some of your other bogus assertions as well, > but I suspect > that there is no point. I've reviewed the messages you've posted > in this and other > forums during the past six months (Web search engines are VERY > handy for this!), and > they're 100% pro-NT and pro-Microsoft. In some, you make rather > lame excuses for > serious security holes in Microsoft products; in others, you bash > Linux, FreeBSD, > and other non-Microsoft OSes. Actually, I just oppose government intervention in the marketplace. If you search back further, you'll find that I've made numerous similar comments about other antitrust cases. As for the "lame excuses for security holes in Microsoft products", I can only assume that you're referring to a problem where third-party drivers created objects and didn't set their permissions. That's not even a security hole in a Microsoft product, so I question the relevancy. I do consider ActiveX overall a security hole though. Though I suppose it's no worse than downloading software over the net in general. As for the IE security holes, well, pretty much every technology has had similar security holes. The only security hole to date to appear in a Microsoft product that I consider inexcusable or indicative of a serious lack of proper design practice was the hole in 98's PWS and Microsoft's response to that. If you recall, Microsoft's response was essentially 'if you want a secure operating system for hostile networks, we offer NT'. Obviously, that's pretty inexcusable if you're promoting 98 as making the Internet easier! As for bashing Linux and FreeBSD, let me state outright that I love them, use them, and recommend them to pretty much everyone. When I do bash them, I bash specific defects in forums that mainly reach the developers who could fix those defects. My goal is solely to push them to improve. So, yes, I 'bash' FreeBSD for not having kernel threads. I 'bash' Linux for eating too much system CPU when you have tens of thousands of TCP connections. But would I like to run a production web, print, or file server on NT? Nope. Not me. I still think Windows is the best operating system for the desktop. > Folks, I think that what we have here is a "Barkto" -- a Microsoft mole. Do I get paid for that? That would be nice. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 12:46:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A039F14CF2 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:46:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 11mk3o-0008fe-00; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:46:12 +0000 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:46:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: judge's comments... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone have the URL for the whole document of findings? -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 12:47: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486E214E61 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:46:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De) Received: from quitte.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (quitte-atm [141.44.30.41]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA17131; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:46:56 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by quitte.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id VAA24588; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:46:45 +0100 (MET) To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CGI PHP4 Port In Progress References: From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells"'s message of "Sun, 14 Nov 1999 00:42:36 +0000 (GMT)" Date: 13 Nov 1999 21:46:45 +0100 Message-ID: <0viu3686h6.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > I wrote a simple port for PHP4 Beta 2 for a command line version of PHP. I > haven't even tried to use it yet to create HTML as I don't really know PHP > yet. What else, besides creating HTML pages, can PHP be used for? Just as an ordinary scripting language like perl and python? I doubt that... Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 12:55:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB7CC14CF2 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:55:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27844; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:51:19 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:51:19 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Roland Jesse Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CGI PHP4 Port In Progress In-Reply-To: <0viu3686h6.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Nov 1999, Roland Jesse wrote: >What else, besides creating HTML pages, can PHP be used for? Just as an >ordinary scripting language like perl and python? I doubt that... http://www.php.net/ is going ta give you more and better answers than I will. PHP Version 3.0 is an HTML-embedded scripting language. Much of its syntax is borrowed from C, Java and Perl with a couple of unique PHP-specific features thrown in. The goal of the language is to allow web developers to write dynamically generated pages quickly. Thanks, Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 13: 9:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E5715179 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 13:09:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De) Received: from quitte.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (quitte-atm [141.44.30.41]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA17297 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:09:18 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by quitte.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id WAA24603; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:09:04 +0100 (MET) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CGI PHP4 Port In Progress References: From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells"'s message of "Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:51:19 +0000 (GMT)" Date: 13 Nov 1999 22:09:03 +0100 Message-ID: <0vaeoi85g0.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > PHP Version 3.0 is an HTML-embedded scripting language. Well, that was sort of my whole point. You mentioned that you completed a port of a command line version of PHP without much testing of its HTML scripting capabilities. That made me wonder... Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 13:32:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF1014BF6 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 13:32:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a006.otenet.gr [195.167.115.6]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA21545 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:32:31 +0200 (EET) Received: (qmail 14380 invoked by uid 1001); 13 Nov 1999 15:24:33 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" References: <000101bf2d70$84b9a810$021d85d1@youwant.to> From: Giorgos Keramidas Date: 13 Nov 1999 17:24:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: "David Schwartz"'s message of "Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:46:27 -0800" Message-ID: <86hfiqh0sv.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Lines: 227 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "20 Minutes to Nikko" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David Schwartz" writes: > > "David Schwartz" writes: > > > > > Yes, and they crushed it by putting out a superior product. > > > What is wrong with that? > > > > Nothing, but IE is not a superior product. Superiority is never defined > > as taking advantage of `internal' knowledge of the OS, in order to make > > a program load faster. > > Ahh, I see. Superior has nothing to do with user experience. Superior > is to be judged by experts according to arcane principles. That's much > better than letting the market decide. The market does not always decide on principles of superiority, and for Gawd's sake what do you mean by using the word `superior' here, because I was assuming technical superiority is the goal. And the market, as anyone who has seen Windows taking over the market from OS/2 and some other operating systems that are clearly technically superior in some aspects, if not in all their design philosophy; anyone who knows that Windows runs on most desktop computers nowadays, knows that the market does not decide always with an eye to technical superiority, but can be driven to and fro by what is generally called the 'market-droids' (no offense for anyone meant here). > > This is not superiority, it's plain good ol' cheating. > > Cheating is a great way to make a product better. All the user cares > about is the user experience. If integrating IE into Windows improves > the user experience, then that's a legitimate reason to do it. Cheating can and has always helped win under some circumstances. That's why I used the word `good' before it. However, it is by no means fair, and there ought to be some limits to it. As for the `user experience' thing, ask all those who have seen IE stopping to download simultaneously from more than 4 sockets at a time, and those who use Netscape and see all their active downloads proceeding as usual. And `user experience' is an objective criterion to define superiority or `goodness'. Both these terms usually depend on what one calls `good' and what is regarded by each and every one of us as `bad'. > You may consider some of Microsoft's innovations cheating, but that's > not your decision to make. Using in half of the operating system the same libraries as IE uses is certainly a nice design decision on behalf of Microsoft. Having a separate layer of abstraction, so that IE is not so closely bound to Windows, would probably make porting IE to other platforms easier but then again, it's already ported to a few platforms. Not as many as I would certainly wish to see it ported to, and not close to all the Unix boxes supported by Netscape though. > Go ahead, take memory management out of the OS. Take disk compression > out. How far do you want to set us back? Eh? Did I ever even mention that any of these operating system characteristics are *evil* and should be dropped by anyone? > > And more examples like this one can be found at closer inspection, > > like those rumours that non-MS products are offered the great honour > > of a few extra wait-states by the scheduler of the OS in question, > > which is another way of making all the _others_ look like they're > > tooo slooow when compared to ma' MS's finely intergrated products, > > etc. etc. > > Look, it's Microsoft's operating system. If they didn't want to sell > it at all, no one could force them to. Not related in any way to the way the operating system is designed, in order to have other people's software run slower than their own. > If you like it, use it. If not, don't. But do you really want the > government telling Microsoft how to design its products? Pretty Microsoftish, this argument is in fact what had them win the court. Yes, it makes sense, but it's still an unfair practice. I am not in favor of having the government gaining in some way control of what Microsoft is _supposed_ to do though. However, what would be a nice thing was if the source of Windows was readily available to everyone, so that those developing for Windows would know right from the start that their programs would be doomed to seem running slower than MS's own programs. I am no Windows developer, but I know a lot of people who are, and if I know them good enough, having this as plainly stated as seeing the source itself would certainly make them upset. Since I can't prove it, having no actual source, but a few web pages commenting on it, I will not defend this anymore. But, my opinion about closed-source programs won't probably change in any manner either. > Look, IE is superior. Period. Anyone who has used both browsers, and > who is honest, will tell you that. I believe I am in a way honest to myself. And I have seen pages with IE, as I have seen pages with Netscape. Yes, IE is admittedly more multimedia-enabled, and certainly has some more features that can have an average John Newbie user feel a little easy and at home. Honestly though, both IE and Netscape have crashed like hundreds of times on me. None of them has satisfied me when it comes to browsing. > There have been dozens of browser shootouts. Pretty much every single > one of them (after IE4 was released) has concluded the same thing. The > market concluded the same thing. I am long convinced that the market is not what one should blindly follow on decisions about what I should use or not. That is after all a freebsd-list, and obviously I am not using what everyone else seems to find user-friendly, at least as far as the market is concerned. > > Competition is another truly controversial subject, especially when > > based on what I called _internal_ knowledge (see above). > > A company should use every resource at its command to provide the best > products possible to its customers and the most competition. Oh should it? How about hiring snippers that would `accidentally' happen to live just outside the competitors offices, and by a truly remarkable game of fate would get pissed only by seeing the faces of the employers of that, very unlucky indeed, competitor? That seems like a certainly handy resource. But should we allow `anything' in the name of competition? Does the goal make any means allowed, legal or sane? > > Compare the price of running Netscape on *BSD, with that of running IE > > on Windows. [snip] > Neither Netscape nor FreeBSD are commercial products. I'm talking > about comparing Windows to other commercial operating systems. Pretty nice and rational now that you clarified it, but I thought that we were not talking about commercial, and only commercial, software products until now. > Do you think you could start a company, build an proprietary operating > system from the ground up, and sell it for prices that compete with > Microsoft? How about grabbing the sources of FreeBSD, adding a nice real-time extension which I made myself, and selling the whole thing nicely packaged, by giving away all the sources for free, except for that part that I have built myself? I think that this is allowed by the *BSD license. And I could charge close to nothing for it. Everything that BSD can use, could be used on that too. No extra cost for using Netscape on it either. > > Monopoly harm begins when you start to get your choices limited, and > > the choice of one's operating system is IMHO a very fundamental one. > > But you have the choice of numerous operating systems. Most people > choose Windows simply because they find it superior for the tasks they > need to solve. Or because they know of no better. For instance, having Windows prepackaged with every new PC that is sold, how many users do you think that will just sit and ask themselves on their first blue-screen "Hm, should I install linux or freebsd and see if that crashes on me too?" Not that many, IMHO. > Build a better operating system, and nothing Bill Gates can do will > stop you from ultimately triumphing in the market. When it comes to computers there is no single `market'. What is bad is not allowing somebody else to triumph, as you put it, in the browser or office-suite market, by making constant changes that provide nothing in stability, performance, or usability, but are just meant to stop others from competing. Think of Samba and Network Neighborhoods. In some ways, Samba might be better, mostly because it runs on so many Unixen that Windows sharing was a little less than a dream just a while ago. However, many a time Microsoft decided to change the SMB protocol, for no apparent reason. The changes were in the key used to authenticate oneself, but they did not seem to provide for better security (not larger keys, just different and it has always been with proprietary protocols, not documented anywhere). They were there obviously in order to make Samba unusable. This is not what I usually call `better' when I'm talking about a system in general. > But Microsoft is powerful and is a fiendish competitor. > This is a successful market. Any market is successful for some, a failure for others. I still don't see how these last two sentences prove anything. > > Forgive me if I am wrong, but companies are not supposed to "kill" > > competition. > > Yes, they are. They are supposed to compete so effectively that their > competitors have to provide better products at lower prices or go out > of business. That's a strong, competitive economy. I still seem to be in dire need of a more lengthy description of the meaning conveyed by the usage of words `better', `superior', etc. Lower prices are not a characteristic of Microsoft, unless you've never actually payed for your copy of Windows and Office; but that's probably something that does not conform with what Microsoft wants you to do. Oh, and I still seem to prefer those other non-commercial OSes, like Linux and *BSD, because even if they're not better, they're cheaper for me, both in the short and in the long run. Anyone who has spent hours on the phone, trying to solve some problem with the installation of some piece of hardware whose unsupported third-party drivers just don't work on Windows, knows what I'm talking about. > > Instead, they are supposed to create superior products, in order to > > be in the head of it. [snip] > > There is nothing a company can do to stop consumers from buying a > better product at a lower price. The hard part is producing a better > product for a lower price. 100% agreed. > I'm going to try to get some essays on the Findings of Fact up at > http://youknow.youwant.to/ms ASAP. I will be certainly waiting for them to appear there. Regards. -- Giorgos Keramidas, "What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing." [Aristotle] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 14:28:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C843914CF2 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 14:28:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09986; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 15:26:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991113152541.04153860@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 15:27:20 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: judge's comments... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm At 08:46 PM 11/13/1999 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >Does anyone have the URL for the whole document of findings? > >-jonathon > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 14:33: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D8D214CF2 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 14:32:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 14:32:54 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 14:32:53 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf2e27$06a48230$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <86hfiqh0sv.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "David Schwartz" writes: > > > > "David Schwartz" writes: > > > > > > > Yes, and they crushed it by putting out a superior product. > > > > What is wrong with that? > > > > > > Nothing, but IE is not a superior product. Superiority is > never defined > > > as taking advantage of `internal' knowledge of the OS, in > order to make > > > a program load faster. > > > > Ahh, I see. Superior has nothing to do with user experience. Superior > > is to be judged by experts according to arcane principles. That's much > > better than letting the market decide. > > The market does not always decide on principles of superiority, I guess this is just going to degenerate into a definition game. When a person chooses which browser to use, they'll decide which is 'superior' for them. That could be based on any number of factors including availability, cost, user experience, perceived quality, or even just which has a cooler name. All these things are what makes a product 'superior' in the market. The extent to which technological superiority (which I think is what you mean) translates into market share is the extent to which it affects the consumer's 'buying' decision. That extent can vary tremendously based upon other market factors. > and for > Gawd's sake what do you mean by using the word `superior' here, because > I was assuming technical superiority is the goal. It's funny, but engineers generally seem to think that all that matters is technical superiority. Of course, that's important. But is that all that matters? Of course not. You were assuming technical superiority is the goal of what? > And the market, as > anyone who has seen Windows taking over the market from OS/2 and some > other operating systems that are clearly technically superior in some > aspects, if not in all their design philosophy; anyone who knows that > Windows runs on most desktop computers nowadays, knows that the market > does not decide always with an eye to technical superiority, but can be > driven to and fro by what is generally called the 'market-droids' (no > offense for anyone meant here). Right. Perceived value is as important as actual value. This is especially true in the computer market, believe it or not. Look at Intel. Once the Celeron had cache and it was discovered that you could use it in SMP machines, there was really little reason to spend twice the money for a P2 at the same clock speed. Yet there was still tremendous prejudice against the Celeron largely because of the perception that the Celeron was a low-end processor. Intel carefully nurtured this perception to protect its cash cow, the P2. Look at NT Server versus Workstation. Other than price and licensing terms, the differences are minimal. Yet people continue to strongly prefer Server (even for their desktop machines) because of the perception that it is somehow a heavier-duty OS. Something often forgotten by those who focus on technical superiority is the cost of abandoning legacy applications. As Y2K is showing us, the cost of breaking with the past can be enormous, so technologies that provide compatability with previous generations have increased value, even though a robotic computation of technical superiority may not show it. Look what it took Intel and AMD to get an x86 processor to 700Mhz. Of course it would have been easier to produce a faster processor that didn't have to run code written for an 8086, but too many people are unwilling to make a clean break. This gives an advantage to competing architectures such as PowerPC and Alpha because they don't have to maintain this clumsy compatability. > > > This is not superiority, it's plain good ol' cheating. > > > > Cheating is a great way to make a product better. All the user cares > > about is the user experience. If integrating IE into Windows improves > > the user experience, then that's a legitimate reason to do it. > > Cheating can and has always helped win under some circumstances. That's > why I used the word `good' before it. However, it is by no means fair, > and there ought to be some limits to it. Yes, the limit should be what the consumer does not want. Not even Microsoft can make a consumer buy something they don't want. And not even the government should stop Microsoft from making and selling what consumers want. > As for the `user experience' thing, ask all those who have seen IE > stopping to download simultaneously from more than 4 sockets at a time, > and those who use Netscape and see all their active downloads proceeding > as usual. And `user experience' is an objective criterion to define > superiority or `goodness'. Both these terms usually depend on what one > calls `good' and what is regarded by each and every one of us as `bad'. Of course. I have my complaints about IE as well. Personally, I wish Microsoft had put 1/5 as much energy into designing ActiveX as Sun put into Java. I believe Java is technically superior to ActiveX and wish that Sun had made it more open and hadn't overpromised. But the fact still remains, the vast majority of people who compare IE to Netscape prefer IE. I have both on my desktop and use IE about 95% of the time. Yes, it crashes from time to time. So does Netscape. So why aren't the Netscape folks working on the next thing? Whatever it is that will make the browser obsolete. That's where the market for technical superiority is. > > You may consider some of Microsoft's innovations cheating, but that's > > not your decision to make. > > Using in half of the operating system the same libraries as IE uses is > certainly a nice design decision on behalf of Microsoft. Having a > separate layer of abstraction, so that IE is not so closely bound to > Windows, would probably make porting IE to other platforms easier but > then again, it's already ported to a few platforms. Not as many as I > would certainly wish to see it ported to, and not close to all the Unix > boxes supported by Netscape though. And the nice thing for developers targetting Windows 98 and later operating systems is that they can rely on those services being there and use them. This is a benefit for the same reason that integrating memory management into the operating system is a benefit. > > Go ahead, take memory management out of the OS. Take disk compression > > out. How far do you want to set us back? > > Eh? Did I ever even mention that any of these operating system > characteristics are *evil* and should be dropped by anyone? What about your argument against browser integration doesn't apply to disk compression integration? Or memory management integration? Or GUI integration? (Actually, GUI integration is something that I can't stand. But I'm not going to tell Microsoft how to design their products.) > > > And more examples like this one can be found at closer inspection, > > > like those rumours that non-MS products are offered the great honour > > > of a few extra wait-states by the scheduler of the OS in question, > > > which is another way of making all the _others_ look like they're > > > tooo slooow when compared to ma' MS's finely intergrated products, > > > etc. etc. > > > > Look, it's Microsoft's operating system. If they didn't want to sell > > it at all, no one could force them to. > > Not related in any way to the way the operating system is designed, in > order to have other people's software run slower than their own. If Microsoft wanted to, they could close Windows completely and not allow anyone else to develop any software for it at all. That's entirely within their rights under copyright. The greater right includes the lesser right. > > If you like it, use it. If not, don't. But do you really want the > > government telling Microsoft how to design its products? > > Pretty Microsoftish, this argument is in fact what had them win the > court. Yes, it makes sense, but it's still an unfair practice. I am > not in favor of having the government gaining in some way control of > what Microsoft is _supposed_ to do though. However, what would be a > nice thing was if the source of Windows was readily available to > everyone, so that those developing for Windows would know right from the > start that their programs would be doomed to seem running slower than > MS's own programs. I am no Windows developer, but I know a lot of > people who are, and if I know them good enough, having this as plainly > stated as seeing the source itself would certainly make them upset. > Since I can't prove it, having no actual source, but a few web pages > commenting on it, I will not defend this anymore. But, my opinion about > closed-source programs won't probably change in any manner either. If you don't like closed-source programs, don't buy them. But to tell everyone else that you no better than them and that closed-source should be eliminated is absurdly elitist. > > Look, IE is superior. Period. Anyone who has used both browsers, and > > who is honest, will tell you that. > > I believe I am in a way honest to myself. And I have seen pages with > IE, as I have seen pages with Netscape. Yes, IE is admittedly more > multimedia-enabled, and certainly has some more features that can have > an average John Newbie user feel a little easy and at home. > > Honestly though, both IE and Netscape have crashed like hundreds of > times on me. None of them has satisfied me when it comes to browsing. I agree with that entirely. There is still a long way to go. But don't worry, in 10 years or so, the browser as we know it today will be entirely obsolete and it won't matter anymore. It will eventually go the way of archie and gopher. That's the beautiful thing about technology. > > There have been dozens of browser shootouts. Pretty much every single > > one of them (after IE4 was released) has concluded the same thing. The > > market concluded the same thing. > > I am long convinced that the market is not what one should blindly > follow on decisions about what I should use or not. That is after all a > freebsd-list, and obviously I am not using what everyone else seems to > find user-friendly, at least as far as the market is concerned. That's not what I'm saying at all. A purchasing or implementation decision should not be based on what everyone else is buying or using. There are plenty of healthy niche markets to mine and exploit. > > > Competition is another truly controversial subject, especially when > > > based on what I called _internal_ knowledge (see above). > > > > A company should use every resource at its command to provide the best > > products possible to its customers and the most competition. > > Oh should it? How about hiring snippers that would `accidentally' > happen to live just outside the competitors offices, and by a truly > remarkable game of fate would get pissed only by seeing the faces of the > employers of that, very unlucky indeed, competitor? That seems like a > certainly handy resource. But should we allow `anything' in the name of > competition? > > Does the goal make any means allowed, legal or sane? I draw the line at the use of force, fraud, or a substitute for force or fraud. In fact, I could list a few cases where I do think that Microsoft engaged in practices that could be considered fraud. But they're not the issues under discussion in this particular case. Misrepresentation or intentional partial disclosure are fraud, in my opinion. > > > Compare the price of running Netscape on *BSD, with that of running IE > > > on Windows. > [snip] > > Neither Netscape nor FreeBSD are commercial products. I'm talking > > about comparing Windows to other commercial operating systems. > > Pretty nice and rational now that you clarified it, but I thought that > we were not talking about commercial, and only commercial, software > products until now. When you're considering whether the cost of Windows is reasonable or not, you have to compare it to other commercial operating systems. Microsoft had no means of enlisting thousands of people to work on Windows for them at no charge. > > Do you think you could start a company, build an proprietary operating > > system from the ground up, and sell it for prices that compete with > > Microsoft? > > How about grabbing the sources of FreeBSD, adding a nice real-time > extension which I made myself, and selling the whole thing nicely > packaged, by giving away all the sources for free, except for that part > that I have built myself? > > I think that this is allowed by the *BSD license. And I could charge > close to nothing for it. Everything that BSD can use, could be used on > that too. No extra cost for using Netscape on it either. Yes, but that's not what Microsoft did. My point is, considering what Microsoft did, and the enormous amount of money they continue to spend on operating system development, the price of Windows is well within the realm of reason. Microsoft could undoubtedly charge far more for Windows than it does and sell pretty much the same number of copies for quite some time. However, long term, they would accelerate the rate at which Windows would become irrelevant, and that is what Microsoft fears most of all. > > > Monopoly harm begins when you start to get your choices limited, and > > > the choice of one's operating system is IMHO a very fundamental one. > > > > But you have the choice of numerous operating systems. Most people > > choose Windows simply because they find it superior for the tasks they > > need to solve. > > Or because they know of no better. For instance, having Windows > prepackaged with every new PC that is sold, how many users do you think > that will just sit and ask themselves on their first blue-screen "Hm, > should I install linux or freebsd and see if that crashes on me too?" > Not that many, IMHO. I know. I personally _hate_ that, and I wish Microsoft wouldn't do it. I find their excuse that it's to combat piracy incredibly lame. > > Build a better operating system, and nothing Bill Gates can do will > > stop you from ultimately triumphing in the market. > > When it comes to computers there is no single `market'. What is bad is > not allowing somebody else to triumph, as you put it, in the browser or > office-suite market, by making constant changes that provide nothing in > stability, performance, or usability, but are just meant to stop others > from competing. Think of Samba and Network Neighborhoods. In some > ways, Samba might be better, mostly because it runs on so many Unixen > that Windows sharing was a little less than a dream just a while ago. > > However, many a time Microsoft decided to change the SMB protocol, for > no apparent reason. The changes were in the key used to authenticate > oneself, but they did not seem to provide for better security (not > larger keys, just different and it has always been with proprietary > protocols, not documented anywhere). They were there obviously in order > to make Samba unusable. This is not what I usually call `better' when > I'm talking about a system in general. How did Microsoft's changes hurt samba? It was still doing exactly what it was designed to do. It simply no longer interoperated with Microsoft's operating systems. This hurts Microsoft's operating systems as much or more than it hurts samba. When you choose to develop a product that works with another company's product, you take the risk that they'll make design changes that break this compatability. If you want a guarantee, you can always ask for one. Otherwise, you proceed at your own risk. Microsoft did not ask for samba. Microsoft does not have to suffer samba if they don't want to. If they want their operating systems not to interoperate with other operating systems, that is their right. I develop products all that time that do not interoperate with products developed by other companies. This is a deliberate design decision. Or do you not believe that companies have the right to develop and use proprietary protocols and technologies? Is this going to degenerate into 'information wants to be free'? > > But Microsoft is powerful and is a fiendish competitor. > > This is a successful market. > > Any market is successful for some, a failure for others. I still don't > see how these last two sentences prove anything. A market is not successful 'for' anyone. There will always be winners and losers. A good market is one that is intensely competitive, and the computer software market is. > > > Forgive me if I am wrong, but companies are not supposed to "kill" > > > competition. > > > > Yes, they are. They are supposed to compete so effectively that their > > competitors have to provide better products at lower prices or go out > > of business. That's a strong, competitive economy. > > I still seem to be in dire need of a more lengthy description of the > meaning conveyed by the usage of words `better', `superior', etc. > > Lower prices are not a characteristic of Microsoft, unless you've never > actually payed for your copy of Windows and Office; but that's probably > something that does not conform with what Microsoft wants you to do. That's just not true. Are you saying this for any particular reason? Do you really believe it? Would any facts help, or is your mind already closed. Here's a quotation from Stan Liebowitz: "Software prices fell by an average of 15% from 1985 to 1995, except in markets where Microsoft competed. Those markets experienced a 65% drop in prices. Spreadsheet and Wordprocessor prices were not falling until Microsoft's products started to become the standard. Even in markets where Microsoft had attained a very large market share, such as midrange desktop publishing, it lowered its price." Other researchers have reached similar results. > Oh, and I still seem to prefer those other non-commercial OSes, like > Linux and *BSD, because even if they're not better, they're cheaper for > me, both in the short and in the long run. Anyone who has spent hours > on the phone, trying to solve some problem with the installation of some > piece of hardware whose unsupported third-party drivers just don't work > on Windows, knows what I'm talking about. Sure. But I've had those same problems with Linux. (Never with FreeBSD, but I think that's just been luck so far) > > > Instead, they are supposed to create superior products, in order to > > > be in the head of it. > [snip] > > > > There is nothing a company can do to stop consumers from buying a > > better product at a lower price. The hard part is producing a better > > product for a lower price. > > 100% agreed. > > > I'm going to try to get some essays on the Findings of Fact up at > > http://youknow.youwant.to/ms ASAP. > > I will be certainly waiting for them to appear there. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 16: 8:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACDB14CAB for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:08:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA34339; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:07:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <382DFC0A.745A45F9@owp.csus.edu> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:02:18 -0800 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roland Jesse Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CGI PHP4 Port In Progress References: <0vaeoi85g0.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Roland Jesse wrote: > > "Jason C. Wells" writes: > > > PHP Version 3.0 is an HTML-embedded scripting language. > > Well, that was sort of my whole point. You mentioned that you > completed a port of a command line version of PHP without much testing > of its HTML scripting capabilities. That made me wonder... > > Roland > To answer your question about using PHP as a scripting language, like perl. The answer is yes, however the authors don't have that as a goal so it's not something would come under the normal use of PHP. If you want a general purpose scripting language use Perl. If you want a web server side scripting language use PHP ( or perl :-) Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 16:34:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC1EF14BDC for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:34:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (208-58-239-45.s45.tnt1.atnnj.pa.dialup.rcn.com [208.58.239.45]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA12079 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:34:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <382E038A.2B96E56B@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:34:19 -0500 From: Jonathon McKitrick X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Judge's decision....(cont) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, i just finished a casual perusal of most of the findings. Here's my $0.02 worth: There is NO WAY anyone can read the report, assuming it is all fact, and believe that M$ hasn't hurt innovation. Just hearing the story of Netscape and Sun and their concepts for a new multi-platform OS, and also Intel's ideas for multi-media, and then hearing how M$ squelched them by leverage or threats. Even the allegation that non-MS apps run slower because the API that M$ releases to developers is slower or handicapped. is appalling. I like the part where we find out that Win 98 users are all suffering a marginal performance loss so M$ can keep a foothold in the browser game. The way they deliberately tried as often as possible to make competitors products incompatible with their own where possible. I like that argument the the people chose Windows. Yeah, right. The OEMs really had no choice if they wanted ANY customer support from M$, they HAD to pre-install Windows and charge for it. Same with IE. We had an inferior product forced upon us. If we ever chose a different browser, M$ deliberately tried to make it inconvenient. Unbelievable. Sure M$ may innovate, but look at the price it's users pay. They innovate where it benefits their profits, not the consumer. That is the bottom line. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 18: 5:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8859D15208 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 18:05:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11160 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:04:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991113190405.00c38d30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:05:07 -0700 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Don't be scared; Mirosoft is here Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think that the denizens of this list would appreciate the following parody: http://www.dumbentia.com/pdflib/scared.pdf --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 18:10:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1670015216 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 18:10:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11186; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:08:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991113190543.0437dc60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:09:01 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Judge's decision....(cont) In-Reply-To: <382E038A.2B96E56B@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:34 PM 11/13/1999 -0500, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >Sure M$ may innovate, but look at the price it's users pay. Microsoft? Innovate? Hah! See http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/quill1109.htm The copy editors attempted to butcher Ed's column by replacing every instance of "CP/M" with "CP" (perhaps because the /M looked like some sort of special code to them), but the column still comes through as what it is: brilliant. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 19:48:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ECB015137 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:48:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (208-58-239-210.s210.tnt1.atnnj.pa.dialup.rcn.com [208.58.239.210]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id WAA06128 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:48:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <382E30FB.7C2AE085@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:48:11 -0500 From: Jonathon McKitrick X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: threads.... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's a perfect example of when threads matter.. i want the newest version of Licq. The newest, with all recent fixes, is 0.71. But i have to DL 0.61 because after that they became THREADED! I hope we have threads (kernel) soon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 20: 3:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 9F063152A3; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F57B1CD445; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:03:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:03:09 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: threads.... In-Reply-To: <382E30FB.7C2AE085@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Here's a perfect example of when threads matter.. i want the newest > version of Licq. The newest, with all recent fixes, is 0.71. But i > have to DL 0.61 because after that they became THREADED! I hope we have > threads (kernel) soon. We already have threads. How exactly does licq (an ICQ client) rely on kernel-supported threads (only needed for some level of SMP scalability?) Kris ---- Cthulhu for President! For when you're tired of choosing the _lesser_ of two evils.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 20:31: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED22C14A27; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:31:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29198; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:56:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:56:27 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: threads.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > Here's a perfect example of when threads matter.. i want the newest > > version of Licq. The newest, with all recent fixes, is 0.71. But i > > have to DL 0.61 because after that they became THREADED! I hope we have > > threads (kernel) soon. > > We already have threads. How exactly does licq (an ICQ client) rely on > kernel-supported threads (only needed for some level of SMP scalability?) The problem is that we require pthread_cancel for Licq to work, I ported it over from OpenBSD a while back and handed it over to the thread guru Daniel E, he's cleaned up a few rough edges and plans on integrating it soon. why a chat client needs to be multithreaded especially using dangerous thread functions (pthread_cancel) is beyond me... but then again, everything is automagically faster/better with threads right? :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 22: 3:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B538E14BF8 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:03:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:03:40 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Kris Kennaway" , "Jonathon McKitrick" Cc: Subject: RE: threads.... Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:03:40 -0800 Message-ID: <000401bf2e65$ffd3d2f0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > Here's a perfect example of when threads matter.. i want the newest > > version of Licq. The newest, with all recent fixes, is 0.71. But i > > have to DL 0.61 because after that they became THREADED! I hope we have > > threads (kernel) soon. > > We already have threads. How exactly does licq (an ICQ client) rely on > kernel-supported threads (only needed for some level of SMP scalability?) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You're joking right? Or do you think that real-world server applications don't mind if you freeze everything while the kernel services a page fault or reads a file from a slow disk? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 23:20:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us (taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us [165.29.134.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687D014C83 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:20:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from erickw@taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us) Received: from localhost (erickw@localhost) by taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us (8.9.0/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA18418; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 02:26:45 -0600 Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 02:26:45 -0600 (CST) From: Erick White To: Brett Glass Cc: David Schwartz , Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991113091425.043ba180@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:12 AM 11/13/1999 -0600, Erick White wrote: > > > For your information it is our descision to make. > > And We Are Borg. You Will Be Assimilated. Ok man. You want to know what? I was talking about we as consumers and general public. OK. you want to try and call me a borg... Try more along the lines of Klingon. Ok Agressive action needs to be taken, and I tell you what.. Its Not being taken! I assume that by insultiing me, you think that you are actually raising your mind. Well lets assume this weak minded one. Those that have to put others down in such a fashion to an obvious statement, are showing themselves truly of limited mentality. Thos who blindly follow Microsoft, it is You who have been assimilated! Look in the Mirror before you start talking about the brainwashed collective mind. Your Friendly UNIX Advocate: Erick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 13 23:38:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mentisworks.com (valkery.mentisworks.com [207.227.89.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B84E1524B for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:38:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nathank@mentisworks.com) Received: from [24.29.197.186] (HELO mentisworks.com) by mentisworks.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.2b5) with ESMTP id 370231; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:38:34 -0600 Received: from [192.168.245.111] (HELO mentisworks.com) by mentisworks.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.2b5) with ESMTP id 1140133; Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:38:37 -0600 Message-ID: <382E66E6.6625EF23@mentisworks.com> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:38:14 -0600 From: Nathan Kinsman Reply-To: nathan@kinsman.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: Newbies vanishing? References: <199911120447.XAA86456@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, I think FreeBSD gains nothing but benefit from Linux. Especially after the various Linux IPOs and increased commercialization. The different Linux camps will become more fragmented due to profit minded competitiveness, and FreeBSD will remain committed to its users and enhancing the operating systems without having counterproductive underlying motivations. I really think FreeBSD is being given a sort of manifest destiny in the current environment, and will become increasingly respected as a clean, unadulterated open source ideal, and we well get an increasing number of FreeBSD converts coming from all camps. Likewise, commercialization and increased popularity of Linux is leading to more and better open source software projects, which is most cases offer direct benefit to FreeBSD, and in my opinion it is often easier to obtain and get running currently available open source software on FreeBSD then any individual Linux distribution (given the ports and packages collections, standardized compilers and libraries, and increased concern from cross platform computability). Many software projects will provide an RPM for Red Hat or Suse, but with 30 or more linux distributions all using slightly different technologies it gets harder and more sloppy to install "Linux" software on Linux, I think FreeBSD is becoming a better Linux then Linux. As far as newbies not posting as many questions, I think this is partly due to the increased number of web and newsgroup resources available. I rarely, if ever, have a question about FreeBSD I have not been able to find an answer for somewhere on the Internet. As result, I've been using FreeBSD for 2 years now and have learned everything I know about it from existing resources. My perception of many current FreeBSD newbies is that the are converts from other Unix or Unix like OS camps and don't need as much hand holding. My only real concern for the future of FreeBSD is threads support, without a good threads implementations the performance of Linux on modern server and workstation machines could become significantly superior, and much software is requiring threads. But I think good progress is being made. I wish I could do more to contribute. Best Regards, Nathan Kinsman Francisco Reyes wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:51:26 +0100 (CET), Konrad Heuer wrote: > > >Surely, freebsd-questions probably isn't the correct list where to mail > >this question to. I feel a little bit worried since - to my opinion - the > >number of newbie questions in this list decreases. Might be FreeBSD > >installation and operation has become more easy or the FAQ database has > >been improved very much, but might also be - and I fear that - the number > >of newbie installations doesn't grow anymore. Will Linux really kill us in > >the end? > > This is really best for chat. > I think it is difficult to measure new installs. > It is also possible that there are just as many new people installing as before and that they are asking > less. You are also not taking in considerating the newsgroups. You would have to look at volume of newbie > questions there too. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message