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Date:      Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:56:15 -0400
From:      Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com>
To:        Shamim Shahriar <shamim.shahriar@gmail.com>
Cc:        FreeBSD Mailing List <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>
Subject:   Re: Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait)
Message-ID:  <CAGBxaXksjGrWJWXYzMg18sV7RAU8nsR1QRSPc6OJx7QdoiDvgw@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <f5a0170f-a97d-c961-8a4f-95e1c1454dda@gmail.com>
References:  <CAGBxaXk0Abwzk08aUFiNutTpADzAx4btFa0sWjuCoT_Awa=zuQ@mail.gmail.com> <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> <f5a0170f-a97d-c961-8a4f-95e1c1454dda@gmail.com>

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On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:58 AM Shamim Shahriar <shamim.shahriar@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 24/04/2020 01:09, =E4=BB=A4=E7=8B=90=E6=9C=88=E5=BC=A6 wrote:
> > I am on freebsd list but I do like freebsd :) due to it is more light
> > and stable than others, as server running environment. freebsd is may
> > not as good as linux for desktop environment IMO.
> >
> disclaimer:
> this is not a personal response to any particular message. I am merely
> responding to a pattern or generic typical statement. Mostly in line of
> "this is better than that" or "FreeBSD is rubbish as desktop
> environment" or "I have no idea what I am talking about and am very
> proud of it". You have been warned!
>
>
> now, for the main response
>
> and Linux is not as good as MS Windows
> and Windows is not as good as MacOS
> and MacOS is not as good as . . .
>
> You can continue the way you prefer. I had been using FreeBSD as my
> primary desktop/laptop environment for many many years now -- with many
> ups and downs, but with much better success than people are led to
> believe. There are times when I need to resort to other OS based system
> primarily because people keep on pushing me to sites/items that I
> personally neither need nor want (Flash, for example) -- but friends and
> enemies are very keen on being the most tech savvy modern "dude" . . .
> (you get the picture).

At work I use both MacOS and Windows. When it comes to security, guess
> which OS I tend to turn to.
>
> Anyway, in my own personal opinion, the inherent problem of the
> statement above (and anything similar) is, people seem to confuse Linux
> with desktop environment -- which it is not! Linux is nothing but just
> the kernel. It is not even the base system -- let alone the userland!
>
> People can complain that KDE does not work on particular hardware, or X
> does not like certain graphics card. That has nothing to do with
> FreeBSD. Anything and everything outside the base system are the fruit
> of the hard labour by people trying to adopt things that were created
> for some other system. The fruit will be mostly sweet, sometimes sour,
> and that is how it should be going forward (IMHO). That is what the
> Ports are offering -- take it or leave it, or alternatively help make it
> better (testing, reporting issues, contributing to codes, donations --
> many different options to suit most people). FreeBSD is NOT Linux --
> there are concepts in FreeBSD like base, userland, ports -- something
> worth familiarizing yourselves with in order to have a meaningful
> conversation. FreeBSD boasts to have the best possible documentation --
> challenge it, read it through, prove it wrong before making assumptions.
> Understanding the differences between other OSs is also essential (no,
> it is NOT optional) unless you are content to make stupid remarks and be
> proud of it.
>
> It is amusing how people put "constructive criticism" without even
> realizing what they are criticizing -- "FreeBSD is not suitable as
> desktop environment" (and similar comments), for example. Well, what do
> you mean by "desktop environment" and is FreeBSD really offering you
> one? Or is your inability to make a third party system play nice on your
> hardware, combined with your lack of understanding of what FreeBSD truly
> is, is forcing you to expose the shortcomings/frustration on public
> forum in shapes and form that makes people think that you hate FreeBSD?
>

I have used FreeBSD for my primary desktop since the early 2000's and
played with it as a desktop since  the mid 90's (XFCE is what made me
switch over to it for good).   I agree there have been ups and downs and
generally I find it a better desktop then Windows (never was able to
tolerate Linux long enough on my primary desktop machine to get a real feel
for how X and XFCE interact during extended normal use with it but from
what little I have done with it there is was almost no difference between
it and FreeBSD and general issues with stability in Linux drove me nuts).
Yes there are ups and downs but that is true of all software and the downs
are normally more controlled and easier to deal with stuff in ports then as
binaries on Linux; if comes to worst I can always fix small issues right in
the source.   About once a year seems there is a major upheaval due to the
-x11@ team struggling to "keep up" with the neighbors (linux) due to yet
another (often) not well thought out "improvement" to the neighbor's GUI
house.   The latest example is wayland -- which I agree on the surface
sounds like the right long term maintainable way to handle the architecture
of the GUI subsystem despite some serious lack, on behalf of the upstream,
making sure that all the "very rare" use cases (in computing "very rare" =
=3D=3D
the first end-user who was not on the development team will use it that
way).

On Flash the need for it has finally almost completely disappeared with
HTML5 multimedia finally becoming the vastly preferred way of presenting
multimedia content.   Which means pretty much all normal use cases can be
done on FreeBSD with no other machine.  Since my significant other teaches
class that uses some windows only software, MS Office (in order to make
sure the instructions on the assignments are correct not for any other
office/educational use) and Scratch (off-line editor) I have a VM that runs
it so I can help my SO prepare assignments.


>
> I wonder . . .
>
> Have fun!
>
>
>
> > regards.
> >
> > Aryeh Friedman wrote:
> >> It seems like there are more then normal (than in years past) people
> >> on the
> >> -questions@ list that for whatever reason just*HATE*  FreeBSD for
> >> technical
> >> and non-technical reasons.    If you hate FreeBSD so much why are you =
on
> >> this list and why do you use FreeBSD?  I suspect in many cases they us=
e
> >> FreeBSD because it is more stable then their favorite OS (linux).  Hin=
t:
> >> that stability is in many cases due to the very reasons you hate FreeB=
SD
> >> (conservative adoption of features for example, not using GPL as much =
as
> >> possible, so called "out-dated" features and lack of "modern" hardware
> >> support -- the last two are either subjective or just out right
> >> incorrect).
>
> To answer the original post, IMHO the primary purpose / function of the
> Trolls are to
> a. fill the Internet with loads of misleading and false information, so
> that when newcomers are searching online for information, these
> misleading and false information are at the top of the response
> b. try to persuade any newcomer from finding the truth and discourage
> adopting to FreeBSD
> c. So far, I think this is the only place (FreeBSD mailing lists in
> general) where people are more accommodating, and does not kick people
> out for speaking BS. Despite being member in many Linux lists, I am not
> aware of any Linux list being trolled so much, or accommodating to
> people with different opinion (if anyone know of any, I'll be quite
> happy to take a look at the list archive and accept my mistake).
>
> The second statement above is from my personal experience. In a former
> job, I had serious difficulty in convincing my then line manager as to
> why they should move to FreeBSD -- primarily because his "Tech Savvy
> Friends" and "googling" convinced him that FreeBSD is the most insecure
> OS there can be -- even worse that M$ :P :P :P. At one point I even
> setup a server and invited him to ask his friends to find any flaws --
> and of course, he refused to indulge me in that pursuit . . .
>

I would rather use M$ then Linux!  It at least has a mostly consistent GUI
instead of a pot luck style one.  Due to being a programmer I vastly prefer
Unix so if I am stuck with pot luck I want one (FreeBSD) where I will not
get food poisoning from under cooked food (Linux).


> I'm not saying these are the only reasons, but in my own personal
> opinion, these are at least within top seven.
>
> Best regards.
>
> > _______________________________________________
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>
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>


--=20
Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org



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