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Date:      Sun, 29 Nov 1998 20:50:51 -0500 (EST)
From:      "John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net>
To:        grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Cc:        dyson@iquest.net, wes@softweyr.com, tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: System V init (was: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD?)
Message-ID:  <199811300150.UAA00283@y.dyson.net>
In-Reply-To: <19981130115038.J831@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 30, 98 11:50:38 am"

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Greg Lehey said:
> >
> > The already available SYSV-like inits.  No sense in reinventing the
> > world.
> 
> We already have an init which can do the job.  No sense in reinventing
> the world.
>
But FreeBSD init is not the standard, and the modified or enhanced
usage of it is not the standard.  If it is the "FreeBSD" standard,
it doesn't make it THE standard.  I am suggesting the FreeBSD standard
be more in line with the rest of the world.  Arguing technical merits
simply degrade into "you can do it in perl or C."

SYSV init is pretty much a superset of FreeBSD init, so there is really
no significant additional overhead.  SYSV init MIGHT even be a proper
superset of FreeBSD init.

> >
> > SYSV.  The world already has too many self-defined standards.  NIH
> > springs to mind.
> 
> Hmm.  OK, I'll let that one ride.  What does POSIX.1 say?
>
Hmm...  What does Linux and SYSV do?  Of course there are some Linux
distributions that don't use standard versions of init, but there are
those who do also.  I am suggesting the use of SYSV style init, which
is what add-on software vendors tend to expect.  (Comparing with the
other *BSD's don't appeal to software vendors needs.)

> 
> > If the existant SYSV inits need some polishing or a minor amount of
> > re-enginnering, and perhaps a formal policy needs to be created, then
> > so be it.  Cobbling together yet another hack scheme seems to be wasted
> > effort and obfuscation.
> 
> I don't seem to be coming across.  FreeBSD init already has everything
> that we need to do this.
> 
telinit 4.

I guess you can simulate telinit 4, but that requires more on-site
hacking.  I am trying to suggest that a commonly used standard feature 
should be supported by FreeBSD.  Alternative hacks need not apply, unless
they are compatible.  I guess I don't care if the init is a SYSV init,
if it is nearly identical in functionality, and looks the same to the
vendors and users.

> > If SYSV init is missing some capabilities, then add them or clean
> > that up.  FreeBSD's init is very very simple, but simpler than it
> > should be.
> 
> Again, where's the missing functiionality?
> 
If you hack around it, then it doesn't have much missing functionality.

(reducing to the absurd:)
Of course, where is the missing functionality by programming everything
in binary, with toggle switches?  I can even visualize an X windows
display by (x,y) coordinates and the information content, but that is
not the same experience.

-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.

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