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Date:      Thu, 02 Jan 2003 12:15:42 -0800
From:      Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
To:        Cliff Sarginson <cls@raggedclown.net>
Cc:        FreeBSD Chat <FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org>
Subject:   Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter.
Message-ID:  <3E149DEE.11F631A1@mindspring.com>
References:  <200301020611.h026BC192518@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <20030102100959.GF12408@raggedclown.net>

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Cliff Sarginson wrote:

Kind of hard to see who you are replying to; you attempt to
carry the same thought through multiple levels of quoting,
which doesn't quite work.  8-).

> > >> >> Grim. I don't buy this, of course, but it paints a grim picture.
> > >> >
> > >> > Human societies have always been, in the limit,
> 
> In the limit ? If you are going to discuss things, use language morons
> like me understand.

The sum of an infinite number of human behaviours is not infinite.
8-).

http://www.mathacademy.com/pr/prime/articles/zeno_tort/index.asp
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3022/zeno.html
http://www.deltalink.com/dodson/html/puzzle.html


> > >> >willing to turn
> > >> > to the use of force in order to achieve their ends.  It is the
> > >> > nature of humans to do this.
> > >>
> Bollocks. It is the nature of humans to do as little as possible.

And to use force, if that's the least amount of effort.  8-).

> How can the fiasco that brought George Bush to power occur in any
> so-called civilised country ?

You don't have elections in Europe?!?  ;^).


[ ... ]
> Anyway I decided then, as I believe now,
> that no society should be allowed to stop me from damaging myself. A
> society has a duty to stop me from damaging others.

I'll agree with that.  That's rather my side of this argument; Dave
believes the opposite: that the society should respect the rights
of an individual, past the point of them infringing the rights of
another individual.


> This is why a country like The USA is the most arse-facing society of
> all. While banning people from taking drugs, it creates a crime culture.

The banning of the drugs is what created the crime culture:

o	By raising the stakes so high, it increased the cost of
	drugs, and therefore the economic incentive for engaging
	in drug trade, as a result of the direct relationship
	between economic value and scarcity.

o	By instituting differential penalties between adult and
	child offenders, they made an economic differential between
	the relativerisk/reward ratio for minors vs. adults, making
	it worth 10+ times as much for a child to engage in drug
	trade than an adult.

o	By introducing the use of lethal force in the enforcement
	of drug policy, they made use of lethal force by drug users
	and sellers mandatory, simply as a matter of self-defense.

> This culture being heavily stimulated by the NRA, moronic untalented
> actors like .. I have forgotten his name .. Charlton Heston, who can
> never be accused of making a good film, who promote a gun culture.

A gun culture has nothing to do with it.  Very few crimes are commited
with legally obtained guns, and the U.S. borders leak like a sieve,
both people and guns.  Most guns used in crimes are obtained from
countires other than the U.S..


> I live in Holland.
> The police guns go rusty from under-use.
> I know of no-one who owns a gun.
> Gun-crime is almost unheard of.

What's your overall per capita death rate, combining criminal killings
and suicides, compared to that of the U.S.?


> This of course is all irrelevant to the discussion here.
> But since that discussion is about as useful as trying to teach a dead
> mouse how to play Macbeth *convincingly* I claim the right to join the
> fruitcakes :)

So, are you on the pro-SPAM (Dave's) side, or the anti-SPAM (my)
side?

-- Terry

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