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Date:      Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:08:37 -0800
From:      "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
To:        Charles Mott <cmott@srv.net>
Cc:        "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.com>, Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Countering stack overflow 
Message-ID:  <28127.856224517@time.cdrom.com>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:28:52 MST." <Pine.BSF.3.91.970217132230.2620A-100000@darkstar> 

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> This is the final post of a long back and forth exchange.  I'm sorry my 
> terminology is not up to your standards, but I think if you read the 
> entire thread, you will see that my understanding is fairly clear.  Do 
> your homework before making an obnoxious statement.
> 
> The fact that FreeBSD is so easily exploited by stack overflow 
> techniques, when the method has been widely known for probably a decade 
> is the real tragedy here.

Boys, boys, please calm down! :-)

To put the matter even more in perspective, RTFM (Robert T Fuckin'
Morris) did not invent the exploits used in his worm, they came from
security advisory information he became privy to through his
*father's* involvement as head of ARPAnet security, or whatever the
exact title of Bob Morris's position was.  I don't think that the
father was actually tossing this kind of stuff down in front of his
son directly, but sone somehow got ahold of it and the rest is
history.

My point?  These sorts of problems have been around since the 70's,
when Bob Morris was collecting his security advisories.  They've
probably popped up in TOPS, ITS, Twenex, VMS and every OS in-between,
and I daresay that many are probably *still there*.

This is a problem as old as programming, and to castigate the FreeBSD
team specifically for it is just silly.  Sure, everyone knows about
the famous fingerd hole and the problem of stack overflow in general -
why do you think gets() started spewing out that obnoxious warning a
long time back?  Knowing about a problem, like stack overflow or goto
abuse or improper indentation or any of a thousand different
programmer evils does NOT somehow automatically prevent such problems
from reoccuring in the future, and I don't care who the programmer is
or what the operating system under discussion might be - as long as
humans are doing the programming, all are vulnerable to a repetition
of history.

					Jordan



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