From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 05:29:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7186332F217 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:29:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l31v2rmcz3gZP for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:29:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 23:29:52 -0600 References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> <20200613091714.aa727af47134d742d6136118@sohara.org> <77a4e519-deda-9113-e0d8-b7ae0a8d1f13@FreeBSD.org> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <77a4e519-deda-9113-e0d8-b7ae0a8d1f13@FreeBSD.org> Message-Id: <28A34A1E-EB9B-4EE6-8FB3-E8E1D80DA108@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49l31v2rmcz3gZP X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.38 / 15.00]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.28)[-0.276]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.02)[-0.019]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.08)[0.075]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:29:56 -0000 On 13 Jun 2020, at 02:27, Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 13/06/2020 09:17, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:00:00 +0100 >> Matthew Seaman wrote: >> On 12/06/2020 10:03, Ede Wolf wrote: >>>> linux has something like /etc/os-release, which is a textfile, is = there >>>> an equivalent [method] in FreeBSD? >>> Yes. It's exactly the same. >> Since when ? There isn't one on my 12.1p3 box. > Yeah. It's been a thing for about 6 months. >=20 > = https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/libexec/rc/rc.d/os-release?view=3Dlog= But this file (neither file) exists in 12.1-RELEASE, so I would say it = is at best an upcoming feature. --=20 "Sir, you will either die on the gallows or of some unspeakable disease." "That depends, Sir," said Disraeli, "whether I embrace your policies or your mistress." From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 05:38:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE2B32F5D5 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:38:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l3CP2pdkz3y0t for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:38:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 23:38:07 -0600 References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> Message-Id: <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49l3CP2pdkz3y0t X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.15 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.10)[-0.098]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.08)[-0.081]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.27)[-0.272]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:38:10 -0000 On 13 Jun 2020, at 09:44, Kevin P. Neal wrote: > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 11:09:43PM -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >> On 10 Jun 2020, at 11:54, doug wrote: >>> See = https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#id= p44832888 >> Seems very out of date too me. For example the first thing it says is = to wrap messages at 75 characters because not everyone uses GUI = mailers. This may have been relevant in 1995, but it sure isn=E2=80=99t = now. CLI MUA=E2=80=99s handle long lines just fine. > If you had wrapped at 75 characters then the quoting would be much = easier to read. Then your MUA is very poor at its job. --=20 May you live in interesting times From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 07:08:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E36B9330D73 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:08:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l5D76gYWz42Yt for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:08:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id l6so12527465ilo.2 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 00:08:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Xn8iRX5AWYDqYvNjgdQi3zdMm4FFwoz/t+ntewQkcus=; b=hey1ZbRHMbj/SMVWShS/3Wj+OYUEjlqy3GhCawcINxvF7fGzhoUB06iLkxx+bClMar z/LEWVdQFrikL2vY7LzRTuOAVvq6mgrxSrIlUzlP3sCIwupMJHtqbQICfUKGv6c5wgfA HQYXRTZn1rUbIEhqjYfbfN2BZ1R/es9TUzwyJ8nIb3IN3GA93aJMLs2A8sZYDohm2Yio xyVgGnFya2rvAWUNqFtVHZg5LqhGtJxu/NP7+yWyaMGQ7JPPwdXwvI6zD8J3u57IzbI8 TRlgd2anJzqO5pIhx4OYLzUbAD+mxHrvmmFz+KVnmLnQ38MOLvqN5P39dugtM6ch/9AQ qdhQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Xn8iRX5AWYDqYvNjgdQi3zdMm4FFwoz/t+ntewQkcus=; b=hH+eXt3g0Y5QkbpFGEbPlpmiNk2z1gI2UwfFmmyqDWCYd69h8QbXBz49YLiMuIqORp TFQ4nemd2/n9msdEMhtnkmcWxySqltr8alRw1aE3vbj1SQUP8bNmsuJ/676rJ14l7QoS Vrn5YN8W8S3PXcVyeaseBGxQIc4kGJAo15h+LO8rF6N/NEzg4yHX+oGOHODRv2RmIm+B JksW8RFzdTnHKYMNGSYKFXGfmP101W0+gmZ4+51FjRW+i321cp0AKhgUZMUIYqf1WXcb GX3Nz845sToW3qtYff0x1Eajjh9tvR7ckYajc7Q1afQfmH2k/AAUfl0pSPJpL7uLfiWm 8dDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531aecCicLIpGGDVYZTLo0Yj+rO5C1RASGdFGAGS4JHk5SEvGgJj ZqdO/Nj4DTMJWWuGob7W95nLpkqsPyTUxZ99Ybk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbOAvj7WUQwUHzmvhpwLhpKgFx9j49VUQTrGP4v5R44WzakLWz1RYjIYNBWRoBjRBgzNBAoW4k7az0XuJ5ctg= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5e4a:: with SMTP id s71mr20619678ilb.119.1592118534473; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 00:08:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> In-Reply-To: <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 03:08:42 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: "@lbutlr" Cc: FreeBSD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49l5D76gYWz42Yt X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=hey1ZbRH; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::135 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.15 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.014]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::135:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.14)[-1.141]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:08:57 -0000 On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:38 AM @lbutlr wrote: > On 13 Jun 2020, at 09:44, Kevin P. Neal wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 11:09:43PM -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > >> On 10 Jun 2020, at 11:54, doug wrote: > >>> See > https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#i= dp44832888 > > >> Seems very out of date too me. For example the first thing it says is > to wrap messages at 75 characters because not everyone uses GUI mailers. > This may have been relevant in 1995, but it sure isn=E2=80=99t now. CLI M= UA=E2=80=99s > handle long lines just fine. > > > If you had wrapped at 75 characters then the quoting would be much > easier to read. > > Then your MUA is very poor at its job. > Any MUA that arbitrarily reformats text is too smart for its own good and fundamentally broken in a critical way. When sending code snippets it is *CRITICAL* that white space not be modified in any way. Some languages (like Python) will even not work or produce buggy code if your indents (white spaces) are wrong. Note I consider Python too smart for its own good for this reason but it makes it even more important the MUA *NOT* mess with the message in *ANYWAY*. > > > > -- > May you live in interesting times > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 07:40:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70148331465 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:40:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l5w119J6z44CX for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:40:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l5vz2Y1tzFg0K for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 00:39:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592120399; bh=nWHuElKA90lAXufvXJ70uKRXtffjuEcCsyYwKSGpEck=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=XXKCEu4N756PLuQCBDA7sKY3GzcMZEGPC0/AKCIeAbj1MwikirJqqP8MwNbUaiP3r 8wnjRuBftQX6YvYGCs9ofLoHEby72hN7pQp8fTHh/bxt7TcUDgPnXs8A/wP7c6jIQI Gj6j80aRjuEsFks/cT8uILVbXf2qRzUkj3tNX2lU= X-Riseup-User-ID: A30101F0CED98AB7E1209A1DBFDF642630F1776DF373A850A1FAA20CF34B0292 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49l5vy6KLcz8sg3 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 00:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 09:39:58 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200614093958.678c3c0d@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49l5w119J6z44CX X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=XXKCEu4N; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.86 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.022]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.24)[-1.237]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.002]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:40:02 -0000 On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 23:38:07 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >On 13 Jun 2020, at 09:44, Kevin P. Neal wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 11:09:43PM -0600, @lbutlr wrote: =20 >>> On 10 Jun 2020, at 11:54, doug wrote: =20 >>>> See >>>> https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.htm= l#idp44832888 >>>> =20 > >>> Seems very out of date too me. For example the first thing it says >>> is to wrap messages at 75 characters because not everyone uses GUI >>> mailers. This may have been relevant in 1995, but it sure isn=E2=80=99t >>> now. CLI MUA=E2=80=99s handle long lines just fine. =20 > >> If you had wrapped at 75 characters then the quoting would be much >> easier to read. =20 > >Then your MUA is very poor at its job. FLOSS provides diversity. If you dislike diversity and arrangements you don't understand FLOSS. On an international mailing list we care about different levels of English skills. The English of some subscribers, including myself, is broken, rudimentary. We also need to care about the MUAs available for BSD or Linux, at least about those that are usually used. If some MUAs are "very poor", but still apply to arrangements the FLOSS community made, it's wise to accept those arrangements. Most agree that MIME is ok today, we accept changes to the good, but still most of us agree that breaking lines at around 72 chars and not using HTML still makes sense for several good reasons. A mailing list for FLOSS software is mostly used by people using a BSD or Linux MUA. The minority is using web interfaces, Windows, Apple or Android MUAs. It's possible to resize the window to the users needs and the lines get wrapped to a length the user prefers, but keep in mind that it makes sense to have a known limit to format e.g. ASCII graphics. It's good to assume that a minimum of 70 chars is available and to not exceed 80 chars. Usually lines get wrapped at or close to 72 chars. Assume fencepost errors of one or the other MUA and quoting levels, so you know how you could format a plain text mail, with e.g. ASCII graphics, to make it still readable after quoting. Some people claim that breaking lines, breaks readability on smart phones, but actually it's possible to rotated a smart phone and actually this mailing list is about an OS that is not used for smart phones. HTML formatting doesn't work, it fails almost all of the times. The only safe way to format an email (without using attachments) is plain text, a font with a fixed length and a more or less known minimal and maximal length limit. How do I know, what most FLOSS related mailing list subscribers think is the best arrangement? Could I provide some facts for my claim? No, the claim might be incorrect. But definitively most of the old hands, who are those who provide most of the helping hands, consider it as the best arrangement, for good reasons. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 08:06:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7BD8332592 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:06:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l6V41NVgz452c for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:06:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l6V265GdzFg5r for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 01:06:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592121962; bh=WidoJKyl/EWD1jxSeXchY6lMCxBByYHM+zHbyi8gaS0=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=LCPtQi9sMTQjoUoj879QD2uRzD2lBUjKc8LKcR88m8fWcp2Ony/GLhf3yi3iymwXu ym832mMtekcLWlNQNIr34XOdOKZhrLFUF3SXNT1oZVyJIOEF4zI6ugBjQEzWJJDo6f ZDZMMNSPJnMtcNSKWBQjzi3o8meAHoOvPcqHN6jk= X-Riseup-User-ID: D3848D9F4570DDFC24E795A7F23F05707725F28D7117E062DE3EA5BB4E003EDF Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49l6V22145zJmvr for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 01:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 10:06:02 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49l6V41NVgz452c X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=LCPtQi9s; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.75 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.014]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.14)[-1.140]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:06:04 -0000 On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 03:08:42 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >Any MUA that arbitrarily reformats text is too smart for its own good >and fundamentally broken in a critical way. Yesno! The MUA could wrap the lines on demand, so long lines for code are not wrapped by default. I add two actions to claws mail [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ cat .claws-mail/actionsrc | tail -2 Wrap lines: |fmt -s -w 75| Unwrap lines: cat %f actually I _never_ use them. However, it's usually possible to configure a MUA, sometimes it's useful, especially if there should be no windows that could be resized ;). If resizeable windows are used, then lines should get wrapped. Indeed, for code, logs etc. scrolling would be better. However, the main point is and I agree with this, a MUA most not reformat a message by default. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 08:11:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA2A33246F for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:11:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.189.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l6cN3d8jz45bV for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:11:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: 0pZzzVcVM1l2kOuuEm_dOfj3I.IqgLJcZhfJVHkDtH1vnNvQ40kGV5837CEfldv HZjkAj6XtJoqP9EvY88ioQbfQeekFFm4f8SsQU7xtkeRDgZQtRui2tEyU_5M2uuqwTPw4V90pJo3 MOmjANx3QuDUdU2P1Dw3jDdWWpQvFSihcBsIs4Nfu5hfkqL6wtuULHCOYPQGPtDZ.3BASLQ2neoE cSHvQDfdrdAS8xi8MOSbXgOLVOScFd.cuP7HCZCbWGaEuQ9B0OChdEvn7GXixZsOrk9TFZq1_.QF w2CC8XB5ptbiYUdK5WldfctQ4RZ1oku87rDlkWMHfbMrXO9pk667tACl08A9ayoSYlsrJIrM3OBT A6VdT1drgy.FC.fN6nFR6Kvaowd5DDZg3j4Hl1mqUPJi4X4h7Ybq__PipGqZusraz1byhbZPuIsL VrF89_SjVNFEpPK3sGEQLz1tiXQr1Z45g5qJRbX7AasF4vMQ9HU1ZJV5aI392qwnw1cY69afDz9w jeK_Z4FO9bz1pjCWZy33RE4woce.fi94l6VLlY48dzfuJWt2aS9hiZ0PfXX7qKgNyDgsl.5CjHNv x3EyLhWwra4KkYb_VPg.oDYVLh9_CY2CFBKD6nwDC1co1yeK3ii3V6A_PCtI.athuNvdc8ho5FxU be4EN6GyBMka6nGq6Tcwo9wLagf4qkzVqm2bTzshte2w0kiYHuBM4L4f.mFvXxth7Qo_igHhIr4R SGRQ.1AVAynR4sAurSdNJhAj8jiatn8sY4iXzHqYoki0hG.3XXFglnnFeMZ_SDp5nnbgteSBEoN5 qMtIrkDYnTzF_9kF_pQSCrpUJwgcJzxthWqxDyeC8OygvbZU33_INQvFnCc.oueNOiFtotKrFwMc 0opH5NDSV4B13ECOKOyOlHH11E_GpkIeqApA.hl4HV0YDnUfpFn17qNUaC3IW6ZwlsFsK8RvOp63 EbsKw2_P4CBHZZlmoCC8wHLeuxijdniaOapZJkIlg0unkPuz2nhgVqkD34vQdzuxOveEQxKOqVzR Fbzm7bt48bVLwh40ZlgRssHacF_HiKeTNSwgQ8hsmRZWmdF84OxljLuSjfWipBdZbyFI85XxlMZm fEPlA1BFDX97ft3iDOllzB7BHbK9nIxSGudzO5GVdAIwmUigmOUVPT6c11fBm86bEXGb6q5qJ0tQ N4Fqy_Zj3eV4vEPpiW5lAE6BLD1pK9K35YgHHNN6fEvr2GVJKSdJzMeRYhVu2CRbpuOqtjxFdiQO 8z410TwbLIzgxJr8EAYOw8GsoUAs_S9Mvj.EzOK7ynvTcOjTchcSpuwkF4YCBThJQsB6WlubwV1m othWFSbWUSgdpb80yJiLpoQoJT0S4VtqDvTSOoAAkesWK.G3j06bQkMPbno7L3UlOc92YSaBRw4A 1UqKLNfulOhEL Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:11:29 +0000 Received: by smtp404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ddc43ec61e7b690f5f6327189b116b8f; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:11:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg1-f174.google.com with SMTP id e9so6218319pgo.9 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 01:11:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532iFpwbdoLXitAiz0DFcha0GE9iO6jFLSaMAw0JalCCD/356Vun asPlM3ibQGf3XrWkTy8hbROhIc+sJWKm8Y2/9+4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+V+budgUvj/L+JQaId+grXfIdQ4QIg5aR9ElL7hzKdpE36l1+LcObCxGW6RxawXUhQpARQU93hwwJ+4ojZ50= X-Received: by 2002:a63:8c18:: with SMTP id m24mr17899274pgd.289.1592122286317; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 01:11:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614093958.678c3c0d@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200614093958.678c3c0d@archlinux> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 09:11:09 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16119 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49l6cN3d8jz45bV X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.65 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.010]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.033]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.189.82:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.909]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.189.82:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:11:33 -0000 On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 08:39, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > Some people > claim that breaking lines, breaks readability on smart phones, but > actually it's possible to rotated a smart phone and actually this > mailing list is about an OS that is not used for smart phones. > HTML formatting doesn't work, it fails almost all of the times. The > only safe way to format an email (without using attachments) is plain > text, a font with a fixed length and a more or less known minimal and > maximal length limit. Your average smartphone user will ignore the concept of a mailing list, and the great part of the under 25 (or those whose only contact with the interweb is and has been by smartphone) will probably ignore the concept of email altogether. For those of you who have taken part in this thread saying (paraphrasing) "Yes, I know there are long-established conventions, but I don't care because I'm above all that", for you there's Zoom, Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. You'll always have a hard time on a technical mailing list. Just give up! -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 22:45:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4ED3478A2 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:45:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lV0M45lHz3VhL for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:45:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from rain.home (pool-173-48-64-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.48.64.3]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49lV0L5mMHz16C2 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 18:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Flowed text To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> From: Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 18:45:04 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lV0M45lHz3VhL X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kh@panix.com designates 166.84.1.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kh@panix.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.91 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[166.84.1.89:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:166.84.0.0/16]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.956]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[panix.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[166.84.1.89:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.48)[-0.477]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.977]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2033, ipnet:166.84.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[173.48.64.3:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:45:08 -0000 On 2020-06-14 04:06, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> Any MUA that arbitrarily reformats text is too smart for its own >> good and fundamentally broken in a critical way. > > Yesno! > > The MUA could wrap the lines on demand, so long lines for code are > not wrapped by default. Or a message could contain information about whether lines should be filled and word-wrapped. Like this message you're reading, for example. It's text/plain format=flowed (RFC 3676). The English text is marked to be filled and word-wrapped on display. The C program at the end is not. Unfortunately, not many mail readers implement text/plain format=flowed. Thunderbird does; Mutt has partial support; an obscure mail reader named Trojita does. There may be others I don't know about. Here's a picture of how Thunderbird displays this message: #include int main(int argc, char *argv[], char *envp[]) { for (;;) { printf("Yes!\n"); printf("No!\n"); } return 0; } From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 22:56:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65BD6347E64; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:56:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lVFG5HXcz3WMP; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:56:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id g3so13576769ilq.10; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 15:56:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=A7Mj+dI6Qc04Tvf78bWYkIscDzGhWfbuuB0f931+pe8=; b=CQWUGVdbN8EzqMCKzKiAgWAc0OhJ0qYQdmRYai0LD3SALIJjryeey88eXajmJeQDfV lqvFKAvNuAT2bLJHcyt4ehY3LN5ZDEctPYhArlNNY4fIdPifEe8h1r8SlwlxET3aK4hU IRwrda5PqQDHIPNWlHHVTI2aokji3Y8NYAvce99ml4JUdtbH7o0ZbIPlvwm/fjHs1c47 u+cmYEwUZNeIOjiR8dSl143Z654d87kq7kLw1nlqPWEL47xgVSml7kX0b5vyUVccC6hV dppHh8kjoTpGZ4NBI47np58QvPqWOKrUkgv+XHWKo9xDK6GUSfSD8zJg9ggEtL+c0lew l8pA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=A7Mj+dI6Qc04Tvf78bWYkIscDzGhWfbuuB0f931+pe8=; b=Ldud+JfbgPOQq/EUu7E+e03mxmaauPgAmvXwNvxC9BK4Uu6dW38Y/+/GNPU0WPIONR FMNHOvaICg4gDscG7+w2iDTaWMjEIgIB6o0GrgyCzhneGAaJZteNEp1TYCovsnR4T/qu JCvjvzWKX4j6PN5Ok/CV6PeA8HivdSD/O4/EIhxLuHMYVDF94kh2eHl5xyq0EooMCh9G m+s2c6jp/SHt3mkPUA3/HxQzLFpQ4uc36/8GmW1XE3Qp9TgN0IQUd5as3WqEk6UDmyaZ D86PLfkux77aSXT6SQXQDGi6+I8IlLnjdXQmRdat3VhA5Xx0EVGrGVoWczFwE5imXR2N AabA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533cGBzhvZ2JL6j/bKhEMTyUjS/pn8c3PW6AxVAtnXusnBln/b2/ mW8ct0rIKMk1OHardKawoU88kjt+SKe7MhOCPkZIZV8F X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzNxKJZIlRm0jaHi1NyM//qt5SIwlQDuma0bAy0yF2JbW56IoV3qzBeSY2ftCrXwcJYzHwlRO4gtxyT0ozCJ+I= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5e4a:: with SMTP id s71mr23482531ilb.119.1592175377328; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 15:56:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 18:56:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Looking for a devel/bison expert to fix a port that depends on it To: FreeBSD Mailing List , FreeBSD chat X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lVFG5HXcz3WMP X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=CQWUGVdb; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.84 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.010]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::129:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.84)[-0.836]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:56:19 -0000 I maintain devel/aegis and when devel/bison got updated a few weeks (months?) ago it broke a few things in the bison/yacc grammar and for despite repeated attempts to fix it I am stumped. Please contact me privately if you can lend a hand with this. The specific problem I am facing right now is conflicting definitions of the parse_error function (no matter which definition of 2 possible ones I can find I use I get errors [just different ones]). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 15 00:11:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F001F349BA4 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 00:11:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gal.iecc.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lWw40wvKz3ZtV for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 00:11:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: (qmail 17193 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2020 00:11:25 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=4327.5ee6bcad.k2006; bh=SCDwCYgyulkeDBRWvp3gzGohwHHZAHN63dEKSrGsi5s=; b=DS1ozZMls7h47SE70OypGKCsDSeUw8XWnU4wCzdv7jgiDqPaq/n+ku19MgN14Oe63NhT54Fc0JQRt8ieSVNotCzMY7S1650qRlmRjK+sMKN5XNyH340+pmirBZahKEEJQROoygSv2qzd+Mqza72SCvUolRg9Ex95G099w+oqEb+fRTZYjYvVtT0Q1/UTbnum/6cRTtb3RDj9v7s5dkuVw+//W3/q6tiEFDXpPvNxPrScvrCMbxx0bqP8gyDB6EP4 Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 15 Jun 2020 00:11:24 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id AE6301ABA956; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 20:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: 14 Jun 2020 20:11:24 -0400 Message-Id: <20200615001124.AE6301ABA956@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: kh@panix.com Subject: Re: Flowed text In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lWw40wvKz3ZtV X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=iecc.com header.s=4327.5ee6bcad.k2006 header.b=DS1ozZMl; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=iecc.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of johnl@iecc.com designates 2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=johnl@iecc.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.42 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.026]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[iecc.com:s=4327.5ee6bcad.k2006]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[iecc.com:dkim]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:470:1f07:1126::/64]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.988]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[iecc.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[iecc.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.910]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 00:11:33 -0000 In article you write: >Unfortunately, not many mail readers implement text/plain format=flowed. >Thunderbird does; Mutt has partial support; an obscure mail reader named >Trojita does. There may be others I don't know about. All of the ones that normal people use like Outlook, Apple Mail, and the ones that come with your phone or tablet do. For us nerds, Alpine also does. x From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 15 01:14:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF1334AC5D for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 01:14:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lYK74YBRz3cy5 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 01:14:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:14:49 -0600 References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lYK74YBRz3cy5 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.51 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.71)[-0.709]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.09)[-0.088]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.30)[-0.295]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 01:14:53 -0000 On 14 Jun 2020, at 01:08, Aryeh Friedman = wrote: > Any MUA that arbitrarily reformats text is too smart for its own good = and > fundamentally broken in a critical way. =20 mutt softwraps text very well, and has done for many many years. There = is nothing arbitrary about it as it is something the user does. I don't = use Claws, but I am about 99% sure it will softflow lines at whatever = width you want (but not, iirc, window width). As for code, if you ae excepting cut/paste ready code in anything other = than source files you're going to run into problems. On 14 Jun 2020, at 02:11, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions = wrote: > For those of you who have taken part in this thread saying > (paraphrasing) "Yes, I know there are long-established conventions, > but I don't care because I'm above all that", for you there's Zoom, > Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. You'll always have a hard time > on a technical mailing list. Just give up! Damn kids, get off my lawn! Nearly everyone in the world who accesses email accesses it through a = GUI, not a console or a terminal. Things like how the text is displayed = are important options for users to have (not for senders, which is why = HTML email is still so offensive) so that the text appears in a way that = works best for the user. --=20 Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nurse it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, "Why have you done this = to me?" And the snake answered, "Look, bitch, you knew I was a snake." From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 15 02:00:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448D534B990 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:00:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lZKp2ggKz3fK4 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:00:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lZKm4bRqzFg9j for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:00:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592186428; bh=OvHHL1JMA4ehdGi3+I4Jz+GLIER2xH2W1bxfCG7vyks=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=W1i30BQ5hGznBYmELwTjMnDo+2qUVu3VQI5QGKk8Ynr7Y8D76SygQ5zS/4GyAQO23 I3Tr2U/xMLH/f0qd0WlXA/qVNSdb3BeFfHQ6SvhCjSYjRiQoABx9cwdjMGs61Cb1e4 P/TpD6b1BY4qS4OTSypUwD8in6tCZP84TasLNSK4= X-Riseup-User-ID: D29DE644355E2C3EB8C1EB89F444EFC8686A00D3262B593E6F0E5E4E8B0C5DB9 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49lZKm0W7JzJpf0 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 04:00:26 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flowed text Message-ID: <20200615040026.6b73bef4@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lZKp2ggKz3fK4 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=W1i30BQ5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.41 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.037]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.77)[-0.771]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:00:31 -0000 On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 18:45:04 -0400, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: >On 2020-06-14 04:06, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >>> Any MUA that arbitrarily reformats text is too smart for its own >>> good and fundamentally broken in a critical way. >> >> Yesno! >> >> The MUA could wrap the lines on demand, so long lines for code are >> not wrapped by default. > >Or a message could contain information about whether lines should be >filled and word-wrapped. Like this message you're reading, for >example. It's text/plain format=flowed (RFC 3676). The English text is >marked to be filled and word-wrapped on display. The C program at the >end is not. You are missing the point. Please read the original thread! We are talking about handling messages that are improper formatted, because some people are ignorant, unwilling to format plain text mails following common conventions for mailing lists. Some of us (me, too) try to encourage people to format emails correct in the first place, but some insist in breaking sane conventions. What you describe can be done by almost all, if not all FLOSS desktop MUAs, but the user writing an email needs to do it. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 15 02:00:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8195634B7BC for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:00:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lZL61pxbz3fMZ for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:00:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lZL52GsFzFg8g for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:00:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592186445; bh=DHwpA7laJnUl01d9hxdT1FmKfUYSvxDa/LWoSH1PdjM=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=aph31GMxz9WxXfaJvnBKdPcApZcjptMMmDO8f1aG7nXec7R8L1nJ1CzBbyEPEHqD4 xU0Pd4749BAR4bhdi9FltiEHW8lbFryZHbMccpW5A020jlXQ9sL3nsTJnsAfTBpZOs 1h1fYgHy7CbBLTEBZd03/rR6XeTZ3Pxj6GgisRG0= X-Riseup-User-ID: 0407D1030176C8DD010D0888BBA870D0558CB1D6850B239B2DA0C038E3348562 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49lZL36ryVz8vYl for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 04:00:33 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200615040033.2cedd207@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lZL61pxbz3fMZ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=aph31GMx; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.036]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.83)[-0.834]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:00:46 -0000 On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:14:49 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >On 14 Jun 2020, at 01:08, Aryeh Friedman >wrote: >> Any MUA that arbitrarily reformats text is too smart for its own >> good and fundamentally broken in a critical way. > >mutt softwraps text very well, and has done for many many years. There >is nothing arbitrary about it as it is something the user does. I >don't use Claws, but I am about 99% sure it will softflow lines at >whatever width you want (but not, iirc, window width). > >As for code, if you ae excepting cut/paste ready code in anything >other than source files you're going to run into problems. There are reasons to attach files, but for discussions it could make sense to paste code, log etc.. However your mails are a PITA to read. Btw. right now I'm using Claws and I know that you a wrong. > >On 14 Jun 2020, at 02:11, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions > wrote: >> For those of you who have taken part in this thread saying >> (paraphrasing) "Yes, I know there are long-established conventions, >> but I don't care because I'm above all that", for you there's Zoom, >> Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. You'll always have a hard >> time on a technical mailing list. Just give up! > >Damn kids, get off my lawn! > >Nearly everyone in the world who accesses email accesses it through a >GUI, not a console or a terminal. Things like how the text is >displayed are important options for users to have (not for senders, >which is why HTML email is still so offensive) so that the text >appears in a way that works best for the user. You are ignorant! We explained in length why most of us follow a convention. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 15 02:20:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92BE934B863 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:20:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lZn85vz7z3g1b for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:20:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lZn73gV7zFgd0 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:20:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592187643; bh=PLhCrtXpnI2lKk44RM1F29lU/bSUY6hEHAXLoft8+ME=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=ANtgM4+Ryk8qHvd4Zb/tjNQK2sBPEwo/FuIq4XIrsh2v57UI80pH3fUy29bIsWrtw AuDU7wnsJdPqFRqbMOBg+vQI404jL0JqG+A81YUg62YILLMgnYFMJDZ2r7q54CvrVg oJfYYT11BUzlVNJC4wv50qFTOsakoYEHLUIQxql4= X-Riseup-User-ID: 567BEF24E937E9B3B5EBDB7F422109FF6F1897B1C0A11BC4CD02E3DAE3F738A6 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49lZn66lQJz8sYD for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 04:20:32 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flowed text Message-ID: <20200615042032.1488c175@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200615040026.6b73bef4@archlinux> References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> <20200615040026.6b73bef4@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lZn85vz7z3g1b X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=ANtgM4+R; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.41 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.037]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.77)[-0.771]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:20:45 -0000 On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 04:00:26 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >What you describe can be done by almost all, if not all FLOSS desktop >MUAs, but the user writing an email needs to do it. Ok, I'm mistaken, "Format="flowed" is not added to the headers by Evolution or Claws, if parts of the body are line wrapped and other parts aren't. At least not by the settings I'm using. 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Mon, 15 Jun 2020 09:46:21 +0000 From: "Norman Gray" To: Kurt Hackenberg CC: Subject: Re: Flowed text Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:46:20 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-ClientProxiedBy: LO2P265CA0312.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:a5::36) To CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:401:8::19) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.0.14] (2001:8b0:df5:af53:fc5f:d942:8ca9:5ebf) by LO2P265CA0312.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:a5::36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3088.18 via Frontend Transport; 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dkim=pass header.d=gla.onmicrosoft.com header.s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com header.b=qL6PljUX; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk has no SPF policy when checking 130.209.16.102) smtp.mailfrom=Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.81 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.995]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gla.onmicrosoft.com:s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[130.209.16.102:from]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.958]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[glasgow.ac.uk]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[130.209.16.102:from]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gla.onmicrosoft.com:+]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.86)[-0.859]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:786, ipnet:130.209.0.0/16, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 09:46:26 -0000 Greetings, On 14 Jun 2020, at 23:45, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > Or a message could contain information about whether lines should be > filled and word-wrapped. Like this message you're reading, for > example. It's text/plain format=flowed (RFC 3676). A (tangential) problem is that not only is this MIME parameter only incompletely supported in mail clients (as Kurt notes), but the parameter might not survive going through an MTA. The email client I use does set format=flowed on outgoing text/plain emails, but when I cc myself, that comes back to me via an Exchange server, which (at some point in the message's labyrinthine passage through the server) strips or replaces the content-type header, losing the format=flowed. This seems straightforwardly an error, but when I reported it to local mail admins, they were sympathetic, but also realistic about how far down their priority list fixing it, or reporting it upstream, would be. They found an interesting blog-post by a webmail provider on the topic: , which I think sums up the situation rather well. The situation is disappointing, but I find it hard to work up much real outrage at it. Best wishes, Norman -- Norman Gray : http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/norman/it/ Research IT Coordinator SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK Charity number SC004401 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 15 10:20:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2F732EDA4 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:20:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lnR86G53z4Nxw for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:20:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.244]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Mnqfc-1j90YX3tzm-00pL2d; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 12:20:48 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 12:20:47 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Norman Gray" Cc: Kurt Hackenberg , Subject: Re: Flowed text Message-Id: <20200615122047.a559d124.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:nJazFgZ/JXZIaYpeZoq5G8M7kMmok6U+Xr6KpRip0+6QGbhJiv9 TUSMTnQObAtScpK/h2uVu1EjWxZUYEV/pgeK0pjV9MIpiHBfiH/9JOXKW5d80LPCklYVTvZ ngPvBOGDmFF14tDf54S4OSjmgPBnW5RySKpRskbaDthSSUt97gUDGa4pxeoRaqg+L4o7DUs bP8UerftX6oXcOi5sY+5w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:GBNyCxMFaoo=:RV//6uGQDVSQIejTu2gqac 5Bus0zFIWJXPhQUJ/7hPoEVi1EmeaGudVeqSAJGwQ+eqJp8MmGS7y9AyM1eumxfl2oL/Y4TkI 8mbhPMNoLimO6woia4JJ7j8inK6uElrfcnj5w8mkM9tcr6mnyGX3u53z00ErCAGIMDnaP5w0Z m/Idl0t9b/enCHsC+dOA8jCTBNBquowcntwVYCOPAXUvcC9WXv5egPmCUrSCI9seIDmiDh73d 0NepnX0/ppJShbFGOCFqDkKWFxajDqVa2SHRSk/UoYebz4gfqB89EdsIMQm3GxTxczFt08xVJ 0Mzft22CQ9G4lbMMnjZp2NrsUFherql1ldPIuHxI21jdFFQtylY4wAoL9Q1f1LWTMi92RBHfi 4vKYZmfJ2YEoVXInpBVciBTb+hjsOZO47OFfq1iU04XT6Dpi5s/gBuOIDCtJHhZEll8wazA3M kg5kkt4NDrlV56HZA6hVBu42LPn5Sa2T/bfxG/I8EiMY0sGV16gPsVaXyHyCZy1V68yvlXsLv HEQQVpR/Ao3aRbuX/2qU2ATdsaEW3DF5F8f7oW5KG0ASqtPtN49lErV7UzKR9m1pgkcL3vujq YDo1A8gmeoM021pxyCmviSp6K39DUdXssiyjtZTZ0Yl1PBDon4JuNHBuqm0FybFg9M5R561fL YTtPGB7Mh6XAwyCcxWSdchyDlZY41wsfRxePdMasp98+3R/VRmDdKcMsZoVHSeaOnG2Y84y/R 5evqrcf7C2awh9CeQZacx8xwrZBGPJwLcRtfb6JB8nOnDOekPuM+8GbUAlg22QPRonHmLtr+1 /13sY9hSx6fQFQy971eHTrYjGxZtbNvnRC/61Zawlpq7fZFaUVM1CSmy66XVhUE3kD3iVnJ X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lnR86G53z4Nxw X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.34 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.24.244:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.42)[0.423]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.24)[0.238]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.28)[0.281]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:20:54 -0000 On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:46:20 +0100, Norman Gray wrote: > The email client I use does set format=3Dflowed on outgoing text/plain=20 > emails, but when I cc myself, that comes back to me via an Exchange=20 > server, which (at some point in the message's labyrinthine passage=20 > through the server) strips or replaces the content-type header, losing=20 > the format=3Dflowed. This seems straightforwardly an error, but when I=20 > reported it to local mail admins, they were sympathetic, but also=20 > realistic about how far down their priority list fixing it, or reporting= =20 > it upstream, would be. A few years ago, I visited a company office where they used a combination of "Outlook" and "Exchange" and even had their own "mail admins" to support this construct. Strangely, every message sent through this construct became mangled in a very unpleasant way: the time was changed, the timezone was changed, and all message content was collapsed into one line (spaces and tabs became a space, newlines became a space). So messages always looked like this: Yes. Original Message From: Bob To: Joe = CC: Management Subject Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: A= W: AW: Re: Re: Re: Meeting on Tuesday Date Mon, 15 Jun 2018 00:20:10 +0000 = Should wwe arrange the meeting at 14:00 or at 15:00? What do you think? Ton= y suggested we talk also talk about -Foo -Bar -Baz Please verify with Karen= ! Original Message From: Joe To: Bob CC= : Management Subject AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: AW: = Re: Re: Re: Meeting on Tuesday Date Mon, 15 Jun 2018 00:14:31 +0000 Samanth= a from accounting dept. wants to know if she is supposed to attend the meet= ing Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFe / Kind regards, Joe Q. Sixpack M.B.A. -- ABC= DE Stupid Title Office Director 2nd Class The Example Company GmbH & Co. KG= Businessing since 1995 Excellence office Certified ISO-9660 Boring corpora= te signature Instead of fixing the problem - obviously something was wrong with the configuration of their "mailing system", they invented a workaround that wasn't exactly good, but worked so well that everyone in the office had adapted it: They printed (!) the messages, took colored markers to highlight the relevant names and content, and then wrote their reply, leading to a new "message line" prefixed with their answer (where the reply looked normal in their composer window, but was added infront of the "message line" for all recipients). After a few weeks, nobody found that their solution, while working, was _not_ what you were supposed to do in such a case, i. e., talk to the "mail admins" and make them do their job. On every desk, there were binders and stacks of printed and colored emails... I bet they still praise their "paperless office" today. :-) To summarize: Sometimes, the right thing to do is to complain, and demand the responsible parties to do their fscking job, than to ignore it and learn to live with broken workarounds. --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 05:27:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9E634FF94 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:27:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from mslow2.mail.gandi.net (mslow2.mail.gandi.net [217.70.178.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mGsj07Mbz4KH1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:27:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from relay1-d.mail.gandi.net (unknown [217.70.183.193]) by mslow2.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 113583AC48C for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:17:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sogo1.sd4.0x35.net (sogo1.sd4.0x35.net [10.200.201.51]) (Authenticated sender: mayuresh@kathe.in) by relay1-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id F41E8240005 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:16:37 +0000 (UTC) From: =?utf-8?q?mayuresh=40kathe=2Ein?= To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org User-Agent: SOGoMail 4.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:16:37 +0200 Subject: Possible to compile tree on a different =?utf-8?q?OS=3F?= Message-ID: <2054-5ee85580-1d-6ecc0b80@214142625> X-Forward: 127.0.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mGsj07Mbz4KH1 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mayuresh@kathe.in designates 217.70.178.242 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mayuresh@kathe.in X-Spamd-Result: default: False [8.20 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:217.70.178.192/26:c]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; SUBJ_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; FROM_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:217.70.176.0/20, country:FR]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.70.178.242:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_DN_EQ_ADDR(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.26)[0.255]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kathe.in]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.55)[0.548]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.60)[0.600]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RBL_SENDERSCORE(2.00)[217.70.178.242:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:27:06 -0000 The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling (including= cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree under a differe= nt operating system. Eg. I can download and compile the NetBSD source t= ree under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? ~Mayuresh From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 05:34:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA17328605 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:34:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: from pb-smtp2.pobox.com (pb-smtp2.pobox.com [64.147.108.71]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mH2C42s7z4KxX for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:34:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: from pb-smtp2.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2CC6F619 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 01:34:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=mime-version :references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; s=sasl; bh=jpHCww+oJGR9/74inIR7xQcXstY=; b=joXFPB dxIgxJqPE4vQQ/veeuqDW8A+SWOXVqnz2F4rZVi3L/JLCJM2aJeUbAbze2ghv0FV MXML5Fq6IDfioHSvR8iCHrsXGB5+ZNozNPrOlAec5PhsLm9bF/yNL3Pj9D57AcU6 LqLQzQKfqPOxBhbVYA3HBn7NkU3wk1bI0d05o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=pobox.com; h=mime-version :references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; q=dns; s=sasl; b=NsGN+HU8ILRAk791a0fAg9o4Dpj1mjr5 VM7BzSSumcH9lF6m98RfNVVsYvXt8XJa3ADDxxEHmI/kHGB9udhD33mdChXGMevV mi8IFgk8K2FSTI4S7DP8UXMQgnXUoAcK9XJvxq21kjwpCoxpFJPrt0g6hi+ugz2H 7x9O+NJ79Xc= Received: from pb-smtp2.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35A56F618 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 01:34:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: from mail-il1-f174.google.com (unknown [209.85.166.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 721606F617 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 01:34:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: by mail-il1-f174.google.com with SMTP id t8so1237391ilm.7 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 22:34:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5309yrbMfuNaYW+MFM/LmDblJzMmIdz1HBAVx10mV2ovATPdU86W 0AtiZos3F54Vse8fMiUS3xfeuToKS6atnAaGHOg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxtTy9oC96zYqLSVHRpUwBQWNcViCO1mumsI/nKngL2eJiWbXuVbCs4NGLTHZ0O5DRo8h4nOBtW6TwsTdV5TIo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:13f2:: with SMTP id w18mr1512438ilj.265.1592285664707; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 22:34:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2054-5ee85580-1d-6ecc0b80@214142625> In-Reply-To: <2054-5ee85580-1d-6ecc0b80@214142625> From: Wesley Peng Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:34:12 +0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Possible to compile tree on a different OS? To: "mayuresh@kathe.in" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 0A394BC4-AF93-11EA-BF3C-D1361DBA3BAF-60148086!pb-smtp2.pobox.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mH2C42s7z4KxX X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=pobox.com header.s=sasl header.b=joXFPB d; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=pobox.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley.p@pobox.com designates 64.147.108.71 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wesley.p@pobox.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.65 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[pobox.com:s=sasl]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[pobox.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.108.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.011]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[pobox.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[pobox.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.52)[-1.518]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.020]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.108.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.108.71:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:34:28 -0000 Yes, it's possible. On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:27 PM mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: > The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling (including > cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree under a different > operating system. Eg. I can download and compile the NetBSD source tree > under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. > > Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? > > ~Mayuresh > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 06:08:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2E7532950E for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:08:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from relay11.mail.gandi.net (relay11.mail.gandi.net [217.70.178.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mHnY3cdbz4MNF for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:08:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from sogo9.sd4.0x35.net (sogo9.sd4.0x35.net [10.200.201.59]) (Authenticated sender: mayuresh@kathe.in) by relay11.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BFFAD100007; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:08:31 +0000 (UTC) From: =?utf-8?q?mayuresh=40kathe=2Ein?= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Forward: 127.0.0.1 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:08:31 +0200 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org To: "Wesley Peng" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4a98-5ee86200-27-56782000@163565984> Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=3A?= Possible to compile tree on a different =?utf-8?q?OS=3F?= User-Agent: SOGoMail 4.3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mHnY3cdbz4MNF X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mayuresh@kathe.in designates 217.70.178.231 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mayuresh@kathe.in X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.70.178.231:from]; FROM_DN_EQ_ADDR(1.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.70.178.192/26:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kathe.in]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.981]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.05)[-0.050]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUBJ_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; FROM_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:217.70.176.0/20, country:FR]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:08:34 -0000 Where can I find material to read-up on this topic? On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 11:04 AM IST, Wesley Peng wrote: > Yes, it's possible. > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:27 PM mayuresh@kathe.in = wrote: > > > The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling (inclu= ding > > cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree under a diff= erent > > operating system. Eg. I can download and compile the NetBSD source = tree > > under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. > > > > Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? > > > > ~Mayuresh > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freeb= sd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 06:13:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B5E329258 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:13:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mHtj3fpbz4N1J for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:13:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mHtg5J1FzFdpS for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 23:12:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592287979; bh=f3ZNo98eUiAIM9ssQ+o5ErfpcR0lm+XNU18TsOeykjQ=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=OoMcN5H5WcpBcwf94BGNyPJT8xe+uyEPscKgLEfeFGKOFtg4bpnLcSbD8UY8pCmhi TjQPq1vAdzIxqSFuIiQEjP96bLCGmKHvtOEdp8yHxuTJh2h+/9KG5fsxY5w63RqlBJ fAh58mwj+F6iZ9PrAxzHKMnFwP2x8GlP8bVVrPJM= X-Riseup-User-ID: 5B78F9CB9D0FFC437AD701D63E95DF96BC672B7F34647EDEEF2EA2883BDCE4FF Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mHtg0j7yz8t5S for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 23:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:12:59 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Possible to compile tree on a different OS? Message-ID: <20200616081259.4b1b4143@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <2054-5ee85580-1d-6ecc0b80@214142625> References: <2054-5ee85580-1d-6ecc0b80@214142625> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mHtj3fpbz4N1J X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=OoMcN5H5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.36 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.008]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.74)[-0.740]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.014]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:13:03 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:16:37 +0200, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: >The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling >(including cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree >under a different operating system. Eg. I can download and compile the >NetBSD source tree under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. > >Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? By googling I couldn't find a script such as https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-build.html , but a howto https://marcelog.github.io/articles/cross_freebsd_compiler_in_linux.html From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 06:21:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB6C23298EB for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:21:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (relay5-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mJ3w4RC4z4N7R for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:21:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from sogo9.sd4.0x35.net (sogo9.sd4.0x35.net [10.200.201.59]) (Authenticated sender: mayuresh@kathe.in) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 425D11C000C; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:20:57 +0000 (UTC) From: =?utf-8?q?mayuresh=40kathe=2Ein?= In-Reply-To: <20200616081259.4b1b4143@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Forward: 127.0.0.1 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:20:57 +0200 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org To: "Ralf Mardorf" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <483b-5ee86500-35-519df400@194132122> Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=3A?= Possible to compile tree on a different =?utf-8?q?OS=3F?= User-Agent: SOGoMail 4.3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mJ3w4RC4z4N7R X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mayuresh@kathe.in designates 217.70.183.197 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mayuresh@kathe.in X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.48 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.70.183.197:from]; FROM_DN_EQ_ADDR(1.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.70.183.192/28:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kathe.in]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.982]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.05)[-0.048]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUBJ_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; FROM_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:217.70.176.0/20, country:FR]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:21:01 -0000 On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 11:42 AM IST, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:16:37 +0200, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: > >The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling > >(including cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree > >under a different operating system. Eg. I can download and compile t= he > >NetBSD source tree under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. > > > >Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? > > By googling I couldn't find a script such as > https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-build.html , but a howto > > https://marcelog.github.io/articles/cross=5Ffreebsd=5Fcompiler=5Fin=5F= linux.html You have not understood my requirement. I want to download the latest FreeBSD source tree on my machine running= native Ubuntu only and compile that source tree. As an example of what's possible under NetBSD, read the snippet (below)= from the NetBSD mailing list. =3D=3D=3D=3D NetBSD mailing list snippet =3D=3D=3D=3D as per martin husemann cd $(top-dir-where-you-put-the-netsbd-tree) ./build.sh -m evbarm64-el tools kernel=3DMYKERNEL to build cross toolchain + a single kernel. This will create "tools" in= a special tool directory (and tell you where). if you are later working on kernel sources, you can do it manually too:= cd $(top-dir-where-you-put-the-netsbd-tree)/sys/arch/evbarm/conf $(TOOLDIR)/bin/nbconfig MYKERNEL cd ../compile/MYKERNEL $(TOOLDIR)/bin/nbmake-evbarm64-el depend $(TOOLDIR)/bin/nbmake-evbarm64-el -j 24 lots of variants also work, but these are the two most popular (i think= ). =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Is such an operation possible with FreeBSD under Ubuntu? ~Mayuresh From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 07:03:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4969032A9CA for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:03:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mK0Z3vy2z4Qfj for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:03:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mK0Y1MjbzFdt1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 00:03:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592290989; bh=mgECoRAesybkQPyxHlek9D+2XK9NY/1jrAsIOg+Ual8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=ZtEaibjmP+ydJt59uO3HqIu4NEduQnrAfFARVGYVBsWMe1d8czdmtOHHVj7wIEFuI 35wOzkxGvOcVfxGs+fNmLH2yC22TAiPuBmc2f+cQ8jmoKY/UlE7+hLoALFkdGRh1JU eP3mpjyzRG1D2jy6xnKChr7IvYWj5UywukEocrYg= X-Riseup-User-ID: 812D359ECA0EC533A79C165DB27FA9A3948D822344F08C825D5F97BB85756DFE Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mK0X4XWZzJmpW for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 00:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:02:59 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Possible to compile tree on a different OS? Message-ID: <20200616090259.0d5f0f1e@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <483b-5ee86500-35-519df400@194132122> References: <20200616081259.4b1b4143@archlinux> <483b-5ee86500-35-519df400@194132122> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mK0Z3vy2z4Qfj X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=ZtEaibjm; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.36 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.008]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.74)[-0.738]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.015]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:03:11 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:20:57 +0200, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: >On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 11:42 AM IST, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:16:37 +0200, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: >> >The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling >> >(including cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree >> >under a different operating system. Eg. I can download and compile >> >the NetBSD source tree under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. >> > >> >Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? >> >> By googling I couldn't find a script such as >> https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-build.html , but a howto >> >> https://marcelog.github.io/articles/cross_freebsd_compiler_in_linux.html >> >You have not understood my requirement. >I want to download the latest FreeBSD source tree on my machine >running native Ubuntu only and compile that source tree. As an example >of what's possible under NetBSD, read the snippet (below) from the >NetBSD mailing list. > >==== NetBSD mailing list snippet ==== >as per martin husemann > >cd $(top-dir-where-you-put-the-netsbd-tree) >./build.sh -m evbarm64-el tools kernel=MYKERNEL >[snip] The first link I posted is about build.sh, so I seemingly understand quite good what you want. You don't understand my reply. Likely (I can't say for sure) FreeBSD doesn't provide a script comparable to NetBSD's build.sh, at least I had no success when googling. The second link posted by me is a tutorial on how to set up "a cross compiler (gcc) for freebsd under linux", which is a starting point, an alternative to a script that automagically sets up "everything". From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 07:28:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2E532BA15 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=QgCR=75=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: from fwd1.porkbun.com (fwd1.porkbun.com [52.10.174.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.porkbun.com", Issuer "Starfield Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mKYF1Cwdz4Rm8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=QgCR=75=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix, from userid 497) id 7904841498; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:27:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 (2019-12-06) on ip-172-31-37-14.us-west-2.compute.internal X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, FROM_FMBLA_NEWDOM autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.3 Received: from [172.20.59.136] (unknown [113.106.251.87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: warren@boxsci.com) by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C924E4105A for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:27:55 +0000 (UTC) To: FreeBSD Mailing List From: Warren Hua Subject: question about the copyright Message-ID: <62dd152f-7c1a-a177-5224-b9005d04978d@boxsci.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:27:51 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mKYF1Cwdz4Rm8 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=QgCR=75=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com designates 52.10.174.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=QgCR=75=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.59 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:fwd1.porkbun.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.07)[-0.069]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=QgCR=75=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.10.0.0/15, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=QgCR=75=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.61)[-0.606]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.92)[-0.917]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[boxsci.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[52.10.174.57:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:02 -0000 Hello I read through this guide: https://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html but I am not sure, if I add one or more customized modules (written or modified by ourselves) to freebsd kernel, and sell the biz service based on this freebsd hosting, does it break the copyright? Thank you. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 07:28:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD8932BA27 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (relay5-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mKYk1tR0z4Rpn for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from sogo3.sd4.0x35.net (sogo3.sd4.0x35.net [10.200.201.53]) (Authenticated sender: mayuresh@kathe.in) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4761D1C000C; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:23 +0000 (UTC) From: =?utf-8?q?mayuresh=40kathe=2Ein?= In-Reply-To: <20200616090259.0d5f0f1e@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Forward: 127.0.0.1 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:28:23 +0200 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org To: "Ralf Mardorf" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <581-5ee87480-29-5e63d300@42519970> Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=3A?= Possible to compile tree on a different =?utf-8?q?OS=3F?= User-Agent: SOGoMail 4.3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mKYk1tR0z4Rpn X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mayuresh@kathe.in designates 217.70.183.197 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mayuresh@kathe.in X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.73 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.70.183.197:from]; FROM_DN_EQ_ADDR(1.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.70.183.192/28:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kathe.in]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.038]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.73)[-0.733]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUBJ_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; FROM_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:217.70.176.0/20, country:FR]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:27 -0000 On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 12:32 PM IST, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:20:57 +0200, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: > >On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 11:42 AM IST, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:16:37 +0200, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: > >> >The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling > >> >(including cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree= > >> >under a different operating system. Eg. I can download and compil= e > >> >the NetBSD source tree under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tool= s. > >> > > >> >Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? > >> > >> By googling I couldn't find a script such as > >> https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-build.html , but a howto= > >> > >> https://marcelog.github.io/articles/cross=5Ffreebsd=5Fcompiler=5Fi= n=5Flinux.html > >> > >You have not understood my requirement. > >I want to download the latest FreeBSD source tree on my machine > >running native Ubuntu only and compile that source tree. As an examp= le > >of what's possible under NetBSD, read the snippet (below) from the > >NetBSD mailing list. > > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D NetBSD mailing list snippet =3D=3D=3D=3D > >as per martin husemann > > > >cd $(top-dir-where-you-put-the-netsbd-tree) > >./build.sh -m evbarm64-el tools kernel=3DMYKERNEL > >[snip] > > The first link I posted is about build.sh, so I seemingly > understand quite good what you want. You don't understand my reply. > Likely (I can't say for sure) FreeBSD doesn't provide a script > comparable to NetBSD's build.sh, at least I had no success when > googling. The second link posted by me is a tutorial on how to set up= > "a cross compiler (gcc) for freebsd under linux", which is a starting= > point, an alternative to a script that automagically sets up > "everything". Okay, now I got it, so there's no automagic solution ready for use yet.= Thanks, ~Mayuresh From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 07:49:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134AC32C303 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:49:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200007d7d02.2c8ccc68ea9071244a4711062b743f0a@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mL2F6B3fz4TMW for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:49:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200007d7d02.2c8ccc68ea9071244a4711062b743f0a@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592293782; x=1594885782; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=2+IKNCgqgr0TnupmFxIJpX4Z0Ej7ZMxfCQAxcPjgno8=; b=MskHArPlfNrhYGrSRbYGTDaCU9ZRU6BZx4ZomRWjsGsY3JLGgbH42O3sl/Dp1Q3+94GcimFT7fI2yU39GBL4pGEfoJ0X06g+NoefBRyIq+NuP1cog1bpNrO5stpud31V5Q8VTHajLw462Ac4544vodltat1hqM9kKbs9ISOu3+Q= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA3ZDdkMDIuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 03:49:28 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 03:49:27 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jl6LV-000ACI-UA; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:49:26 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:49:25 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: mayuresh@kathe.in Cc: "Ralf Mardorf" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Possible to compile tree on a different OS? Message-Id: <20200616084925.5ad28cda1cab6a20f3a2e892@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <581-5ee87480-29-5e63d300@42519970> References: <20200616090259.0d5f0f1e@archlinux> <581-5ee87480-29-5e63d300@42519970> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mL2F6B3fz4TMW X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=MskHArPl; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c200007d7d02.2c8ccc68ea9071244a4711062b743f0a@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c200007d7d02.2c8ccc68ea9071244a4711062b743f0a@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.65 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.010]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.012]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.924]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200007d7d02.2c8ccc68ea9071244a4711062b743f0a@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200007d7d02.2c8ccc68ea9071244a4711062b743f0a@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:49:43 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:28:23 +0200 mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: > Okay, now I got it, so there's no automagic solution ready for use yet. That being said FreeBSD can cross compile itself for different architectures - so once you get the build toolchain bootstrapped it should be fairly smooth. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 08:04:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9542B32C8B7 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:04:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200007d8319.9f85e9c0204b85a9ada4b63d95faf5a6@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mLMR69Vqz4V2b for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:04:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200007d8319.9f85e9c0204b85a9ada4b63d95faf5a6@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592294676; x=1594886676; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=8ZnIY1TVQC8YOk93IaAKDgCq11elcdMn7hI3aXWdpY0=; b=BPuv0VUC8Ae8KVUDKcimlSUGvilvA1FiRt2GzLYATMeYlWno3ig7JX8P01K2+j5odgRx2uduSu9ZnnIoqli080XAh9LemZz1rCG5dvtMz0OE8jMKlRu2v+ZMWvDBCdD+9zb+LjRDuBJ7XzYove9H11azU+41m3kbS5MXGOHiZrs= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA3ZDgzMTkuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:04:25 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:04:25 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jl6Zz-000AH4-SN; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:04:23 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:04:23 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Warren Hua Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: question about the copyright Message-Id: <20200616090423.99db56b6b9be1e317c43eac8@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <62dd152f-7c1a-a177-5224-b9005d04978d@boxsci.com> References: <62dd152f-7c1a-a177-5224-b9005d04978d@boxsci.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mLMR69Vqz4V2b X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=BPuv0VUC; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c200007d8319.9f85e9c0204b85a9ada4b63d95faf5a6@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c200007d8319.9f85e9c0204b85a9ada4b63d95faf5a6@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.94 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.030]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.015]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.19)[-1.193]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200007d8319.9f85e9c0204b85a9ada4b63d95faf5a6@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200007d8319.9f85e9c0204b85a9ada4b63d95faf5a6@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:04:36 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:27:51 +0800 Warren Hua wrote: > Hello > > I read through this guide: > https://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html That isn't a guide it is a legally binding license. > but I am not sure, if I add one or more customized modules (written or > modified by ourselves) to freebsd kernel, and sell the biz service based > on this freebsd hosting, does it break the copyright? As I understand the license terms and your intentions it does not, the language seems very clear you may use it with or without modification and you may redistribute it subject to certain conditions. You plan to use it with modification - the license appears to make no restrictions on how you use it. However I am not a lawyer and not competent to give legal advice. If it really matters you should get a legal opinion - it is ONLY my layman's opinion that failing to do so will not land you in trouble. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 08:34:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA4232DA08 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:34:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.186.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mM2H5hMvz4Wq8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:34:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: PRdmJEQVM1k3oRclzY0UQmHqmynwnKWSTNjmWAU.9OWVmmk88PFn5QT5P78fFuI H_J0.F4as8SaSlWZtMT.8El8RgZU9IKLPOpnS.hz28DNvFvzzSFKoEHKEeoTzKHieSbCS19q4.Ab itr7jOKxt_xAQiNjDAZJZSpPKIy3K8gQ.O18ZPFeD03ao0Zltw3w19ZQRAl0KCEmBghhFezliROm wJM5av2Y5CLzApNe.tDN6x9TfwQAV8O.vyDjVhbsjDZikTbK2H4AfUkPph_gM.nnsIIvqpH9tg6b KoI3VIj4tSBPJMU0zK5ziz356dcZC26dTJZMY6ZCMzno8wgBnclaSFMvMd5Ij.fqbnrEupgvOHms loTyJ41UMdoyqUdOjDTYiFcahLsebjRbMpI1otFYkDTBWtR4CluS97BBWxvPr3m9l3LT3LtOOS8O 2KcVemVYIlF0r2L2QTtjVqO6duovv0KnC3GnU97eTuQAROkZONlMRs9Iv7IRixQYOaeUspBNk2Ab VKXxZnYCe0rlHtqLfKEoaTiLmCrBQst.yL2r2pZ_V14BlrVoZ16ItzuxmjiBp45tFLIofqyI5guU rIjHpUKumRSNL3qICRZ6RWylJlHoUqXeZZV.zCRn28JDZZ.RgkL3f7_8yd1Psuapo0tya5BXq0WH 3eDD6GnHsyaClRalrcC7NxDdiDZOyIrgMM5ZBR.VA5dC7y_q9PfEK4A9MoHNP5E16juQxT5d3cOA QWC8_jK2Rfh1uINZ8rl5lQ0_iHUIDxGuKsBmVj0xSEkP4GKh0eAZFt1bzsJjTA85sQqXHSQHLLWo VXjdViEzqOYh1JX9FzCHOVfHVj1rW54lvsI1RYFmEj9bmkQsHT3_x4viXZsV9lwoInAsGSDM.Q8a WhD1e6k82Zr8_Si6E3at9a49HZRl77UDOwMbrCdDOGJiN5E5Do16ld.rymOSoondjB77AYMa07Bs hY8sjT.3KT5wi.13xmlm8_L_JNj15pRMox4_36xz67fEHdfjIsZvQJTSqx4QJr6PujVi6pNJVXwb TJQJw6zjhV4z_1Qbv7DgDQ2jBJa.3FHWCm3tHF4KAJD9ydu4LHHj6O8M.k0hBlBPUSE5alojZYPK 8n9bt1SpgAXTTlMSF5Vq.fo2rr3Tt45ZIn4W4H2vmnjrjF6PQZ_tynphlQtU.nVCsl7AiRF6cmL8 Q94bE.E2TEbbq6MQSMa5DRLu65n9vXgK9GnOWSxfBX8yKCXbEhLWOsfeaSjEL6waye1sYy7ZmzrM CUz6ILki92.wxNFuJ21dnvnm5de8qW7X0J_tCl2e_CnY6SKmGM7PJtlEVOed16r6I4.So0w0DLfg Rnz2y_cXmSbjdv2thOhFofiF9rNk6nUWui3uNqdWlIrLB1t6Uj_iMqhDml.XW8qlryShcY0hNZZx dzIyzNNzzvw-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:34:46 +0000 Received: by smtp430.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0c8afea61ab5eb0f036386cd049e5ac6; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:34:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-f50.google.com with SMTP id h95so1210809pje.4 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 01:34:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530mEAMxuCk+wvu/o19Iga7EaZOd21zr2OK/nQMCr0oxOwtLKNUw r0dhdo84DNguoZw8pThnOyjNXciqZ7xftts6nHA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJvqkvHVzbbgTNT5QVQs7MlfoSJfSTAk31yM4XONkELlZ367+ZGIFhl3zvw4OGftsdd4JwN7nwNUxv97p9Szg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4c91:: with SMTP id my17mr1610280pjb.81.1592296484140; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 01:34:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <62dd152f-7c1a-a177-5224-b9005d04978d@boxsci.com> In-Reply-To: <62dd152f-7c1a-a177-5224-b9005d04978d@boxsci.com> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:34:26 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: question about the copyright To: FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16119 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mM2H5hMvz4Wq8 X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.94 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.970]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.013]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.186.146:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.26)[-0.256]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.186.146:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:34:48 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 08:27, Warren Hua wrote: > > Hello > > I read through this guide: > https://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html > > but I am not sure, if I add one or more customized modules (written or > modified by ourselves) to freebsd kernel, and sell the biz service based > on this freebsd hosting, does it break the copyright? > Adding modules and then selling the product is not a problem in itself. The problem is: what licence so you want to attach to the new product? For example, if you did that to the Linux kernel, your only option would be to distribute the new kernel under the GPLv2. I can only guess that you could make a proprietary product out of FreeBSD just by adhering to condition 1 and 2 of the above mentioned licence. Or, even better, you can sell the product under the FreeBSD licence. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 09:32:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175F532F8F6 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:32:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.75]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mNKK14Wtz4b8W for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:32:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MqJyX-1j8Ecm2O5j-00nNnV; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:32:47 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:32:47 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Ottavio Caruso Cc: Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: question about the copyright Message-Id: <20200616113247.6cf028c1.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <62dd152f-7c1a-a177-5224-b9005d04978d@boxsci.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:cTkExJs9UibnnBXKjP8v1cDBnA0adenslfOb0hXauEmH7xvzRLz Ezdvnlxoq1M3YdoeoeyuGjN20ytkymSXZ+8CRBFDiyXigD8RUHVNR0jxYSaH1L3fpcW1kng C7nVx8Mk0SzWMtq0tp4BRB2lNOQdX0vY+ygws+WbepGdFAiOzHQiAlNxx8yEEFh/zX8h+tE /gCYQo5PSM4Htpme4VTHg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:GnarCoyHky0=:wWeDP5A5uah7GVCXYcnNAH MUuyKhp10hNWP7pEyKT237eVcftNihCHB6bDdERFAX4UOFcL9CAZiMA/hmKuXQmXqfXNR5btg 7ZNbjPgDEUgIBK9ToETavBpaCWyx2Fy/dGTHyHAhCHN6XcRlMAXGiASe+i3T7ILTPbN6QEAyc S6cD9bXYvAw+oUuvoThtb6LtHHzIZESKN8dPWYu4tBvAiWn5HE28Gm1mf1lwz6D6suWosKdXv CTobjiCWISY4sT2H6aip6Q6LtyuIX2PNMXi3Z2vd6v9vg+tpn6K60V2NJdXDDYvwJ0+6MpGPJ 2gWla6GAB9emDxlfoIqulpeWIa0x1Nk7wqLfReTVq0fOTcgl202pHpYAiB2TQLsC7lk+1mzSW JUzZ4INuV/ISwte5YuhpRymMR+qtwNzS1aMGPtClJuURfXx8SHsVqd+tlkkLOhgQzIvL89APd WodFSxWLGNloegIqkl2eylph9R9UGrgYlaCXRP6ESD/w88PPgc3Dt6iJT+0auSi2Sit4+W5AF NcPSMC3PpEqh81Zd3EQmD1Td3jRsfOviN2tZfLQbtfiNxlRivCd0ASbx16mCuhyYBHAOk4DFQ nYgYBdpITyS6pyOrdL2aZtjpW3xo9dee6qvUl86DAKGRnJbHONYiFdR6l9DL0p5oVtgDChuXz dTm+LqVcywznpYHnVRmhlwcpPcA+XZQrCjK7MKs1moa3bNl8F3SCaToZb+0y1cmf5Fmu7+pxz BrosrMpduPe4v2jqN4/PHXeaayAPN/h0kebBcwLkBeOGLhiCq3ISup5alx6ugfo8PTlywTA67 JlN3uvshzhIJhUt7WlZt1hD51J4UYX7xABZ8Z+JKuZnTDjZvk0ZaKGciZIq3YVaPZb0XgT4 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mNKK14Wtz4b8W X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.75) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.01 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.21)[0.209]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.46)[0.461]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.94)[0.937]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.75:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.75:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:32:55 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:34:26 +0100, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 08:27, Warren Hua wrote: > > > > Hello > > > > I read through this guide: > > https://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html > > > > but I am not sure, if I add one or more customized modules (written or > > modified by ourselves) to freebsd kernel, and sell the biz service based > > on this freebsd hosting, does it break the copyright? > > > > Adding modules and then selling the product is not a problem in > itself. The problem is: what licence so you want to attach to the new > product? For example, if you did that to the Linux kernel, your only > option would be to distribute the new kernel under the GPLv2. I can > only guess that you could make a proprietary product out of FreeBSD > just by adhering to condition 1 and 2 of the above mentioned licence. > Or, even better, you can sell the product under the FreeBSD licence. That is also my understanding, not being a lawyer. And in reality, you will actually find products incuding software derived from FreeBSD ("taken for free") being sold. The BSD License explicitely allows this kind of use. However, do not confuse licensing with copyright! Because you can take FreeBSD as a foundation for your own product, it does _not_ change the copyright of FreeBSD, i. e., those who "made" FreeBSD cannot be deprived of that property; you cannot remove the FreeBSD copyright notice and put your company's there instead. See #1 and #2 "must"s of the licensing terms which makes it clear that copyright does _not_ change, and the notice thereof has to be kept. Similarly, for everything _you_ write, the copyright is yours (as the "maker"), and you can choose licensing terms regarding the use and distribution of what you made. Not providing the source code is absolutely possible. Still I second the advice to consult a lawyer if you really want to be sure. There might (!) be specific laws and regulation that apply in your country or juristiction. And always remember: "Two lawyers, three opinions." ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 10:19:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3067330CC0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:19:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: from outgoing.tristatelogic.com (segfault.tristatelogic.com [69.62.255.118]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49mPMX1cqwz4dmf for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:19:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: by segfault.tristatelogic.com (Postfix, from userid 1237) id 2CEF74E751; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 03:19:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" To: "Kevin P. Neal" cc: "@lbutlr" , FreeBSD Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd In-Reply-To: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <13114.1592302783.1@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 03:19:44 -0700 Message-ID: <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mPMX1cqwz4dmf X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rfg@tristatelogic.com designates 69.62.255.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rfg@tristatelogic.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.93 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.986]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.930]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tristatelogic.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.71)[-0.713]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14051, ipnet:69.62.128.0/17, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:19:53 -0000 In message <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org>, you wrote: >T24gV2VkLCBKdW4gMTAsIDIwMjAgYXQgMTE6MDk6NDNQTSAtMDYwMCwgQGxidXRsciB3cm90ZToK >PiBPbiAxMCBKdW4gMjAyMCwgYXQgMTE6NTQsIGRvdWcgPGRvdWdAZmxlZGdlLndhdHNvbi5vcmc+ >IHdyb3RlOgo+ID4gU2VlIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmZyZWVic2Qub3JnL2RvYy9lbi9hcnRpY2xlcy9t >YWlsaW5nLWxpc3QtZmFxL2V0aXF1ZXR0ZS5odG1sI2lkcDQ0ODMyODg4Cj4gCj4gU2VlbXMgdmVy >eSBvdXQgb2YgZGF0ZSB0b28gbWUuIEZvciBleGFtcGxlIHRoZSBmaXJzdCB0aGluZyBpdCBzYXlz >IGlzIHRvIHdyYXAgbWVzc2FnZXMgYXQgNzUgY2hhcmFjdGVycyAgYmVjYXVzZSBub3QgZXZlcnlv >bmUgdXNlcyBHVUkgbWFpbGVycy4gVGhpcyBtYXkgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHJlbGV2YW50IGluIDE5OTUs >IGJ1dCBpdCBzdXJlIGlzbuKAmXQgbm93LiBDTEkgTVVB4oCZcyBoYW5kbGUgbG9uZyBsaW5lcyBq >dXN0IGZpbmUuCgpJZiB5b3UgaGFkIHdyYXBwZWQgYXQgNzUgY2hhcmFjdGVycyB0aGVuIHRoZSBx >dW90aW5nIHdvdWxkIGJlIG11Y2ggZWFzaWVyCnRvIHJlYWQuCi0tIApLZXZpbiBQLiBOZWFsICAg >ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBodHRwOi8vd3d3LnBvYm94LmNvbS9+a3BuLwoK >ICAgIkkgbGlrZSBiZWluZyBvbiBUaGUgRGFpbHkgU2hvdy4iIC0gS2VybWl0IHRoZSBGcm9nLCBG >ZWIgMTMgMjAwMQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f >XwpmcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9uc0BmcmVlYnNkLm9yZyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKaHR0cHM6Ly9saXN0 >cy5mcmVlYnNkLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2ZyZWVic2QtcXVlc3Rpb25zClRvIHVuc3Vi >c2NyaWJlLCBzZW5kIGFueSBtYWlsIHRvICJmcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucy11bnN1YnNjcmliZUBm >cmVlYnNkLm9yZyIK Bullshit it's not relevant now/anymore! Please wrap your lines at 75 columns and please use 7-bit ASCII only without encoding. Some of us never got onto the Microsoft-induced insanity bandwagon that preached that all email messages have to be HTMLized (and thus 10,000 times more bandwidth consuming that they need to be) and also we didn't sign up for the notion of having email, spreadsheets and other such crap be executable... a glaring and obvious security hole. I still use the NMH mail client, which dates from the 1980s. It is plain text only. I have never been infected with anything. Regards, rfg From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 10:27:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA41133111F for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:27:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mPXL5yQtz4fDQ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:27:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MkprN-1j2ket3pjL-00mITJ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:29 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200 From: Polytropon To: FreeBSD Questions Subject: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:NCbFofYgY9tHWcyLNQ4jwxbxssjbEqtpFv1KLCdKagVb67Xlt+J 0kxMGyLlpjdJuKT/3XW48W8+ITdIDWWAH5UdYQDXmvDBidagvDM8JlnBZFQ5DuF+RNNjC4F cv52NTxkqrj/oW4q5kZPrU6Fxn9w/YECpfjQO7jMc1bMkNVKlHror4+FtbHunhrmQdcYKqh 10bIMg89O4JxoV0xIsmJw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:FF7nAR+5OzY=:KonpRNngDIcECpNGei7A5U cYYzRTF79n9SlCGOEmebWtwoSohi61SwgqEPYi2aBtzH1hH7D5ZQwhOYnwKL/vwiKyQhf8ky5 NFL6fW6494dvjPAhp0nsrpi3oQa+p+FyRJQEetj6FF5kkgeB9JJ8KfOZW5uwwGLJd4YjzsVTm BPmoyXL1O6pDNb5K9W7e0Zvyjm41caOkc9lJ4tj/O0+0n28KiiW/DUb7f7WmeNAupfz1dNwAU 7+tuM1hWxqsx/iY7z3epYlZEH0KPx7paBlLqlT6a7DBYqQTYFHLlacwxriCMhT8fDgBBuKq7J g/q3Qbjyyz5UyzIfQ/zConO/hhRHNAwbjbmq3gqp5mdg04IdIQOs/qKHzmuC4lHnb4F6El59y Nb1h9+N+IKeZPXy0+j396RVm6XBwKHP7LiVVujHZffIH5mUviOZb5VP2iQPL7xbR06PKvX8ie rttLNMX6oYgfGz+U8GT2TK+KqaxWESg4/yUJjNN6nMwuHZ9QO9qlU21c4DcTcDCa6zBFqYFjC iVqlHxB5mDUlYeS+7qVEaODUQW3x28h8PxNqvjzSZHxRF3t5lGRamhRpj6fDCP+OTRrG9R4HI zEyneSKwpOKhfE3vp1hwJL3qQt39O6Ot9laIXyi8/nJEU3qHx5KKegZ8Iy4GPGnxJ+gQiiHd/ 5M+0lfmUgvpYySWyg/N2SfHBo71+uBb/a6rttVEGMuOZXDaupk8mXy3+sTKnx3nmC319uRy19 ny/b0s5P+YP4D8Vvsb36rhYXxEiYnQ84WF45TJehZLsRyBwPVsWvmC94iTrM4lAKp637u0nVX HJiP/XLsq3ox5foTIwVtM6btPTQ+SM4d2ooOCGJBHCy+4BmMb8FcX6fsINVFfzhLRAd18Sh X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mPXL5yQtz4fDQ X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.13) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.96 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.69)[0.693]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.89)[0.890]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.978]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:27:32 -0000 Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium (here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). I tried the "overburn" workaround (as suggested by cdrecord, with the precaution that this is non-standard) as follows (for testing, all parameters supplied manually): $ cdrecord dev=0,0,0 speed=8 -v -eject -sao -overburn -data But of course that was problematic, too. Capacity Blklen/Sparesz. Format-type Type 0 2048 0x00 No Media Present or Unknown Capacity Blocks total: 359846 Blocks current: 359846 Blocks remaining: -13044 cdrecord: WARNING: Data may not fit on current disk. cdrecord: Notice: Overburning active. Trying to write more than the official disk capacity. Result: It recorded! Track 01: 728 of 728 MB written (fifo 100%) [buf 99%] 8.0x. Track 01: Total bytes read/written: 763678720/763678720 (372890 sectors). Writing time: 646.563s Average write speed 7.7x. Min drive buffer fill was 94% Fixating... Fixating time: 7.867s cdrecord: fifo had 11653 puts and 11653 gets. cdrecord: fifo was 0 times empty and 11546 times full, min fill was 85%. Trying to boot that CD in the desired system - it starts from CD! But then an error occurs: FreeBSD bootstrap loader, Revision 1.1 Startup error in /boot/lua/loader.lua: LUA ERROR: cannot open /boot/lua/loader.lua: No such file or directory. Can't load 'kernel' OK _ No, that's not okay. :-( Oh, and: If I enter "help", as offered, I am being informed that help is not available... I booted the FreeBSD installation from the hard disk and mounted the CD: READ_BIG ERROR, and a "ls -R /cdrom" led to two further ILLEGAL REQUEST and MEDIUM ERROR messages. Maybe I should try a different optical unit, but the one in use here also booted (and installed from) a FreeBSD 4.5 CD I created many years (probably decades) ago, so I would assume that the disc drive is okay. The file mentioned above (here: /cdrom/boot/lua/loader.lua) was present on the CD and readable. File source: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/ISO-IMAGES/12.1/ Result file: FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso 763678720 bytes (728.4 MB says the browser) It would be nice to remove a few of the additional packages from the CD so it will fit on standard 650 MB (and therefore 700 MB) media _without_ requiring the workaround of "over- burn". My question is: When will FreeBSD supply a CD image file that can actually be used with normal CD media again without requiring a workaround and possibly breaking the result? -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 10:51:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01541331EC8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:51:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200007fd084.e0d066558693487d32a4fec4cd1f584e@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mQ490Z3Dz3RQr for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:51:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200007fd084.e0d066558693487d32a4fec4cd1f584e@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592304697; x=1594896697; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=A5pUV2R9E7v7L0X3Epkf1VyDknBudW9UwOIcyRLsQ8I=; b=i3KsDsuBsChIHK9pvD7TCZYiO+qF/zbTwNxtR4QcnKAWIorvs3KpXroVDuPPywlFxXa7p3J5FcPO9VmN+cu2Qga0KxW4ECiLJAYPC0bk9Jtw3x24YhSdk1VPWD6UWzzh+TehdE1MT1ACiQLwLXEtxNS4j7DDRtMECZmK11qZK6E= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA3ZmQwODQuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r4.h.in.socketlabs.com (s1-b40f.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.180.15]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:51:29 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r4.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:51:28 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jl9Bf-000Aja-IT; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:51:27 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:51:27 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQ490Z3Dz3RQr X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=i3KsDsuB; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c200007fd084.e0d066558693487d32a4fec4cd1f584e@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c200007fd084.e0d066558693487d32a4fec4cd1f584e@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.93 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.029]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.013]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.19)[-1.189]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200007fd084.e0d066558693487d32a4fec4cd1f584e@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200007fd084.e0d066558693487d32a4fec4cd1f584e@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:51:38 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the > FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record > this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium > (here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). That seems to be an oops, disc1 and disc2 were always supposed to be for use on CDs. There's always -bootonly but that has to download the distribution files which may be a problem - if not that's the way to go for now. > When will FreeBSD supply a CD image file that can actually be > used with normal CD media again without requiring a workaround > and possibly breaking the result? Shortly after someone figures out how to and submits an acceptable patch - you may be the first to have been inconvenienced by this, it's been a long time since I used a CD. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 10:57:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D56331F1D for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:57:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mQBW6vqKz3Rkf for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:57:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MVe9i-1jLsfM46lA-00RZxq; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:57:05 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:57:04 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:V4bDXScpdu5t1A94WDbsporc4mwhwzoHZiLP+Tcm/+xdQgLQJKR 1k0JtzqyYhqPdOOtqqNIAi0c5Ch/PZucqredTZf1YDZVnUvUp/0dtoQAX+pt3qRXeFSlqIv 0o4ywBukSHV+vEyxV0fnXFUeF+zOXwCH+osgL684Tet4IOq6DiofM3/vf8qtYf2N3iKpjhG 6RWorh6wp1UKQOGmMGUtg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:R0PWRzQCM38=:64ZG3+2RuaHUQ4YLdSW/ww FCeeUsREyjRribOBrieeGUh3jHv+1lTKfCcV8XkCjejWqUMNlqhdipCBa/17Qbn8mKytnD6Pf LJVLqbeHj2sUFJt90axE1kFezbuAOCvD62//gw2ZmX+986OaMZlj0vK+zGTJyR+pkQ7+f5Fpl /qGCW1WQGrVGhyWXZpVlqIUGYA/N2rBEGhAs1CF6MUHfKARHj9aOmNfZeT1g7A/uQ+RWqmhFi 7GZGgYb6C98dg8v3umK1O/HeNNOxhhQtAnmRf0G3CBuF0PlIvphTIe/VMabICQrLVJNpxYlp0 +37UOngh/lURPO+UVZWlcw79AeZnBZOxtsJ9bZOYKxk3qhMfOumKMJ9VBfF8o84/TL3iHuLZp SryHVkD66ALL0lOojV+ocbkb0XpH4Fponj3tBs7Sqc5WKATJxsPfA77CTaAFRMmrkeRe4sndP 4i4ES/sPPJtpPDYOdrNVxil+JWW2UAH2iZMFhT0JNDmR7wc3LmT0wYQ+OpJM81/2vMwq8lq1V lLDlQ1BWkS+PKhc7x+0z5tURKWI7YWkXpiP8x9pZjSCPjydwfspyqqthzDW9sOuAsxJxuCtN1 Kg5bZsxl8dnj4iZhd7Rekk8ZzHVfYEw1kHnwCmVXZJgr/CuITWDEa5b91VGuacqih48vLKitJ 7chHpkm/7y5TPs1RNU36Hb0SRVC/JclO6k9+Hkljoq0fBLVFmGd8L/2uXHE9yvPthglT6dpTP NYw3910yxyix+Xj6vZtuA6jXNf+jk2rznPbgYvuR5FQZPX6puCw+q2YIrH7+L9buhZd/QyEPg 49VmENC2OaQpRFuJvvmwtVfjKN9JOqOxEqbqIijPJbJNRpXodYRq3Gw0+dKSbaI0EWmTJ6R X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQBW6vqKz3Rkf X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.13) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.65 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.71)[-0.707]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.04)[0.045]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.91)[0.913]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:57:09 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:51:27 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200 > Polytropon wrote: > > > Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the > > FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record > > this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium > > (here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). > > That seems to be an oops, disc1 and disc2 were always supposed to > be for use on CDs. There's always -bootonly but that has to download the > distribution files which may be a problem - if not that's the way to go for > now. The system is not networked, so even my "screen captures" involved reading, walking, and typing. :-) A boot-only solution would not help, and also booting from DVD or USB is not possible, because it doesn't exist. > > When will FreeBSD supply a CD image file that can actually be > > used with normal CD media again without requiring a workaround > > and possibly breaking the result? > > Shortly after someone figures out how to and submits an acceptable > patch - you may be the first to have been inconvenienced by this, it's been > a long time since I used a CD. It's surely possible to omit a few of the packages to reduce the image size. Further software can be installed using the 2nd CD. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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[178.0.144.171]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 23sm3591740wmo.18.2020.06.16.04.11.05 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:09:50 +0000 (UTC) From: Roderick To: Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614093958.678c3c0d@archlinux> User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (BSF 419 2020-04-12) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQVh0lL0z3SMy X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=CYNm74tX; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hruodr@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::430 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hruodr@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.13 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.0.144.171:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.023]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.91)[-0.913]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::430:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.19)[-0.189]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:11:08 -0000 On Sun, 14 Jun 2020, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > For those of you who have taken part in this thread saying > (paraphrasing) "Yes, I know there are long-established conventions, > but I don't care because I'm above all that", for you there's Zoom, > Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. You'll always have a hard time > on a technical mailing list. Just give up! You forgott WhatsApp. Rod. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 11:17:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3652C3327C3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:17:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mQfJ3yy8z3T7s for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:17:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N5n81-1ioUH93sXz-017HMR; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:17:41 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:17:39 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Roderick Cc: Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616131739.d738e5a3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614093958.678c3c0d@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Qsp4zCwvJF7kQh1xzYQ7f2JlAulk557U208W3UX+0psJjsCqxCV DYrhY0j8jeiSxRqYqGJyyQmG6Brm0VZrPvgCUGMirRylIkXbm2xvypqcgWCOEb+WdiCyzCC lsNrJ7lfl5K7fyz7mL9A0FWJTDV5ycUUMNFnA5ThZKtKfwy37q99FhW7maMWIi91GHO6QXt jX82q1YmuVIQYyR6oyTAw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dlNfygDpByA=:C9YYLDB2SlFIXlLvhENug5 iC7A0ybPTL2/ErtmHycFpg/E1ErQLmHLzGRsDt2ZKn7H2SP9Novlb8a2A3KIn2T1+wFGQHUdl ClSZ0AKBNdNQcY7EaFtHFTu79+ssuuCRKqTwyZWZlvSPX+th9l/Y1An12bOWRi+Oig6uwAZTa Sl/0+FGcDsLCUkHbVOVjhM8FYcKQ/8qaFtuzTFgZCAVHxiIx0z7H/Wu7jpRKiGNd4hmizvTA3 3dFjoZSP/v6TBb3BN0cVsdWYBmGIoYggvyTneleDXPyPGpQe3Zy/qMjE4y4YivlTGPYgBOOpa ftv3r9j9if6CxBcJwauTiuMG8U1c81ssM/pWlwjAtz/wpISVkJxLyjyGNICdgZFiDKihCle9E s2ZhCl0HF+G/nppZfI06h81dwny33B8Xzue+5NJQbhCYwb/HLgzeMOjFC59JDuLPJ96D6Xnzu 7AGJ+ALhuXx2mUv6xu5JzTqnhuIF2VYADtK8Mb+3ZdRC3Ca4bNxUziiaKWwd1FPc+9u+y9Keo QD9WLa9lfRv1qeoBdJMgNOSkZFZ1TMn+c+GEOwNodlDvQZH+0yiYNafMnN0+F0/07Yl/CtCcP Pl3EWCWA5MLbTqhlWHOLuJU4AsYcKtMddO66JYjZKjsA1zF+t861NcxU5WvgkICGM8OGCEFhT UvRPZ2J8uAMhKqVOfU81UADJmTIUQARIuTtrt/+6A3tVLYu78PFq0hrU+JyKfaXkfkcE+fG71 5Vqe+LDUEgCPjilPRCdFAHml1ZGx5Pw2edCo+P4Zdlhm/1+3QeNFBgqbCZWOm6yc7AKib5OjQ GBHLWP+EFqxLqN/+CduY4u5grLm1xCOB+VfiiGlO6hZoYdRdhrC2yri30yNi7u3LUfzasfI X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQfJ3yy8z3T7s X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.73) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.10 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.73)[-0.726]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.50)[0.500]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.92)[0.923]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.73:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.73:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:17:46 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:09:50 +0000 (UTC), Roderick wrote: > > > On Sun, 14 Jun 2020, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > For those of you who have taken part in this thread saying > > (paraphrasing) "Yes, I know there are long-established conventions, > > but I don't care because I'm above all that", for you there's Zoom, > > Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. You'll always have a hard time > > on a technical mailing list. Just give up! > > You forgott WhatsApp. Belongs to "Facebook" since 2014, so it's implicitely included. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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[174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d140sm14182510qkc.22.2020.06.16.04.12.04 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mQWk4J1hz4Rxn for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:11:53 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/=yJyDozPoBRAJ0e9Q_Oc1dU"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQgk6znKz3TFY X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=K1HXKT2W; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::732 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.61 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.85)[-0.850]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.051]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::732:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:18:59 -0000 --Sig_/=yJyDozPoBRAJ0e9Q_Oc1dU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 03:19:44 -0700, Ronald F. Guilmette commented: >Bullshit it's not relevant now/anymore! > >Please wrap your lines at 75 columns and please use 7-bit ASCII only >without encoding. > >Some of us never got onto the Microsoft-induced insanity bandwagon that >preached that all email messages have to be HTMLized (and thus 10,000 >times more bandwidth consuming that they need to be) and also we didn't >sign up for the notion of having email, spreadsheets and other such >crap be executable... a glaring and obvious security hole. > >I still use the NMH mail client, which dates from the 1980s. It is >plain text only. I have never been infected with anything. That is a choice you have voluntarily made. You have the absolute right to use whatever MUA turns you on; however, you have no right to tell anyone else what software they must use. --=20 Jerry The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering. -- Dr. Who --Sig_/=yJyDozPoBRAJ0e9Q_Oc1dU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7oqPkACgkQOHMGOIfe xWRUbAgArN/cGny78H673cHYDCMfU5sZtbM5Lew3RW8edpq449B+CQ+0Nmjyfrt7 lzUo9kIRHi9RThn8/kcNdfnz3L0uVkATxH0NYL00Y7GrH+MAUNWuY0EUXD8kuKKB z8A5LIYGlHD/Hpn7XtkeKQKCSqKBhqlK36+dfeqJoGwIyOu/OUSTKDGldH+fs4fK LQuGTB4sc90zPEpNxr3GjfXD7PM+ySFxuzM8viu1eIR8MfB7AlditEjOUjdpGdWx zc1CigKu9UFdiY8j8W6+zGbKhUNNXv8pLGAS+jE9VrfbITJgo6hAkuAoJbMeXmYq hRx49EuLUIf0sXlFMpB44yjhH5Ba3g== =2p4+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/=yJyDozPoBRAJ0e9Q_Oc1dU-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 11:23:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15EA3331B2 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:23:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mQnC2sqyz3V6h for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:23:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id n123so10620013ybf.11 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:23:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=fPcG359170zJjEKRnWU3w5ilEzfMXjjF2c6bGtA7j5M=; b=QvSSGlUimUFmcackrw96+z2HoApe/BppjP2r0NwWmvg5ZNkTzMTJfBjEDRUKyosWcV WnR1xsIE3FnvsH9QGwSVZMNgM98rQiToXcUaLZ8JCcY8/L+RPQyu5p8b+2sTKeWuNQBT UJHp0saZ0mtHQerfLBq/fTDeQ6tfifh5hvsRqyyyZsrpEJg7WjN2Sog/TMXksSmkPbBS L8wfaXszKhWp3kVWKaC3tyyFf+WuGOYxk08OLmxocdX7yn1ycVoVIjSmhnPtlJgohUrY vDwox41dYE5iCzW/tBwG0rxb3qYC2HigFvu0Hn1s3dL2+e6o9tJbMykznWAlqTVM/Y2q YeaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=fPcG359170zJjEKRnWU3w5ilEzfMXjjF2c6bGtA7j5M=; b=kKtdoGvNsDl6ojJUdpzPQq6QAaahYWaiLkeYJQt7a2t+OqLqp7wZgjGz+NZcuQnx7z ZxgGfHB6rPWm3yr9DGTWjPUc4Iem1SiIs2sar2P9s55y9ALsdLVvHAmf71V8E8nE7UjD 0HFdaNiersF1fFIBkKSy2Vtp/ZTMC7zC6s0shUVGPv1LH8xhoBp1fDOjR9W7WdTHsqh/ Dex0bUjxbvM5A+c9ZUTPf+U3qa88WoFgShjv1Rqvof2qu+lB7bFEtM2QqhCwgRWZ0skD Lr0faVQZG4aa1IchSnecFrUDMFIJ+QjPS/GqIAGlFkvpqwC/Y7CZ/+tLFk+LbrbSYWm4 CIqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530O9nrbd6uHZJHMhI6D2Xa/KdphG86aoIfy/+jYk4X4lNOhaqd9 A83No2+2qSMNrxb60WiHgnZ0DqwxJy4oLmOBTx6cPbmh X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJweX2Og7WAqlHUBMi6Z240iagkB1LoGw17OiyK8INN/yPqii5nKzHh3vX2aN2gAjyIRILbZ77dSOQRvz3EjuAA= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bd0:: with SMTP id 199mr3375291ybl.329.1592306621959; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:23:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:23:30 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQnC2sqyz3V6h X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; REPLY(-4.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:23:43 -0000 It just amazes me each and every time when this discussion comes up.... You're willing to embrace change, and evolution of new technologies like 10G Ethernet, USB / Mass Storage, CSS, JS, Lambda's JSON, etc... Yet, you want to be stuck in the stone age when it comes to email. Do you still use 360K floppy disks as well? CDs? Things change, embrace it like the rest of the world, or move on. No one is unfortunately going to dictate to the entire world, what they can, and cannot use in terms of a MUA. You're most certainly not going to dictate that to me, and you're most certainly not going to dictate to me how to (or not), send emails. If you want to be stuck in the stone age, then so be it. Feel free to not read my emails if it bothers you that much. -- C From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 11:30:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0C533346E for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:30:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x82e.google.com (mail-qt1-x82e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mQwg4Hh6z3VLG for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:30:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x82e.google.com with SMTP id d27so15150110qtg.4 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:30:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=VIOffGdQ2RbeLbGInyAoPwWE4C3SB2q+idfrP1ZHhHs=; b=DhPpOocZZHINoJelFWsLwDBDuaogSA7vAnZioB2ZJZ43JMqblGS7c7uP/ERYgPMH6Q 2jBACxuUjFbIxmJ9ACHuES3BnTPCGquc1YyxJllpu47nWawZ910PGTpSYkXMTQnxI+59 1Z7ENnPZdM9i63uczZzneuuJgFJDa7v8SJuVM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=VIOffGdQ2RbeLbGInyAoPwWE4C3SB2q+idfrP1ZHhHs=; b=pyP+3pNrimvhWwUt5hxwpsHIUrl4t3vTjb+rH1zcxOyYDdktOsAobbkpGpWhzuKvsZ 5NolKSEkpp32+pqsoS9rFgHmhAOmrnSy4tB/U6iV1HIFgjqKoLlOCW1maK+T95XWvzkf UrL6ztI5Y5H1c8nchb8036agaxNKUxsQ8H8V70J764axxDWB6hJU+WtFgkx6ux9FpOVB pESLbiQrWuqurMJ1POdn0fxWYAoTw37JSsqdNUy0UPyu3211tCgZ+3IymVGpEh6FPbhJ QuGOew1X+bojPfSj2QmGGg+geEqdj6vLX/O+j0Xn4IHIzNAaLIFHtefQ7+4kczVHb7bd mPSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532fnaxX5sz5oatXKBaln0BqomxMt27InClB+ODSw6/5dGXFalUF 8qA6yXGiVfuN14YfXhTGXrBP5pgI6mo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwz1szeeh2DhHvjA+VxddB9KtMvpcB3XBoyeJWZ2Qc4xBjWfiYgtgv5/WqKaWo0T/3EXjJiBw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:1ab9:: with SMTP id x54mr19972210qtj.371.1592307010108; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v69sm13494799qkb.96.2020.06.16.04.30.08 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mQwb3Czrz4RyS for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-ID: <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/_V7uHmUvdz0ej4K72P0qVS_"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQwg4Hh6z3VLG X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=DhPpOocZ; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.13 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.42)[-0.415]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.86)[-0.859]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:30:12 -0000 --Sig_/_V7uHmUvdz0ej4K72P0qVS_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: >Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the >FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record >this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium >(here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). Are you referring to: 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso or 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso --=20 Jerry --Sig_/_V7uHmUvdz0ej4K72P0qVS_ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7orTgACgkQOHMGOIfe xWT5mQf/QZhRwG7h8CsxNI1b1Mn+0P084DThozy6EiBTdPcluUgF0MXAnz5Z6M05 0SpZjsK6HEGRPsO3YrZ6Ia4WIXLC7hCsFsGgfr/MtEO8hz0XejUatU70wALmDKAi q7jdlHgWc5/iPNXwuMtY6Mu1jRSKngiwTksqbYV2+UKSzFdt0gxy5tuVjd6JMpPX /ryoEghKv0y/eD0xiVMFOzdvtjpFgnfaI0tL6+9hyF6uYViL3AClEq2Az5H0NIUP tyEY0nEu8Ga6Ci6oOOZSGM3BvCKcBLLtLbC3tHLoYAARU0ePLc0x+EWlpyIcM0TR JynAxa7nSGZHk5nrL9pKMPk047C+GA== =67gR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/_V7uHmUvdz0ej4K72P0qVS_-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 11:37:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879C2333B62 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:37:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mR5b707fz3WGp for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:37:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MplsZ-1j6ZJ90Cpp-00qAU5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:37:54 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:37:53 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:7GSfHX/bMc5jyJVw8AgX3Hcx25xw1uNr15/INT/LNkmXW2Z+H9R Z//J6F/XNoG0gFs0DSfgQAR2i3zWaPYwYAQyDYVyrATiUSPHWbF4l2TKtn/1RFrRpBMrN0s MZfjejAKW+5go8TblGsY3trd5gG3ued8biy5L8zeDeKKD52qi9o7kN3eFEiM6eM+gGeE1wP JIQKzLub8HAdC9TeBOb6A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:miB9gatk0A0=:dXb8qsaQl/Gj8hVq6lBiBy Qf6f5lTvhc0nAi3YUiKCpTElhptduIHb/JwtFLmSfsCHeSnKAM7IdksxEB6HhosTCVct9T1f8 SzAIEEuGgOMlx3S7bojVEJNHrvH1C4mH+aKF4OeXnFtItc3EV5PWWY9hOIyfJJd51L5z98Tko 0EKwAdOmRe1BX9LnD2F8PYiQnn+YBxvj/VXdC3ho/Bcy90nJ1iQ+wE9RE0yRvBWD2alM4G0Uk L11OllZM78LwXDm3jksxiYMZtScdXXVgpKbJYtBGf3KYXo9jm323gPophUxTtS6uO7BGzMHSw 0qMj0KwovTR3v+fYUjDQzfq49ikyxMa35/ge+qrmJAl60ukcFNYk4aquhSC02x6lgrdPK8OQv AxxrjsOQpsB7m+8sOnyAizsLWlznz9Q+L4u7TjL4lsfMo0gUcBFF+vPrKG/sWOUaROMvGiV/y hjtMWaqPfBeQ/2bciN7UxHw0PH7JBg27sZNMeGwp5YaQuT3KKiGBQ9ouVI0g6M9w7zQBIBBlw Av1HJLJOjFk9MgM9PrVgQKulSJ/w9bNhA/AG5KbuvAy7FzoEvsTGKlE0aMfXpzxLadzSzJ6hS Dtlz3NdEgYU8ocgsVGg872R2D4Rh5un1ZvjqIvNZsTxcmqKARVWFn9oWHvF3YuWYtpLXewJfR BQy6BJ4JCLWT19chRmbLk5IkDujqd7K6LzObdFRnp85E90aFa9PFhVthxgW2wBcUkV/mcH+aR fuDfFKDJf2/Kt+FNkzdDg/CnlBum+Le9hdHZTThO3GrdyBDkUvOkiOoYmmpP2yV7cHIgGmZQw 8OBUjDKZAxXw9W6Rbhh7obL38SMrzvuYGqf/tRc/5e24nbD81rVB4kR2OY3zX4GiAd5Q6hu X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mR5b707fz3WGp X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:37:56 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400, Jerry wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: > >Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the > >FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record > >this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium > >(here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). > > Are you referring to: > > 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso > or > 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso As mentioned at the end of the message (discussing image file size), the file I used was FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso, because the system it is intended for is not 64 bit capable, so i386 is what I will have to use. I think the problem here is that 728 MB exceeds the standard that says 650 MB and allows 700 MB and, by use of nonstandard tools, does not guarantee for anything if you successfully burn 728 MB. "Is possible" doesn't imply "will work as expected". :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 11:56:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682D2334F84 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:56:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mRVR59d4z3Xp7 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:55:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id c185so18789529qke.7 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:55:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=RXdv02xef3klhZUN800pGbrZocvD4f/9UPgQ+L0KtrU=; b=JQaS0wv8Jse0TdAzeR3dY6DSmHTchqgqT+XcDqvsJuICjEgV6VI97e9k1DIz2hQMFH WD/guHulOJGy+2IpBj7NZjKLh3EZraLW1YFQ0e4oLYm6QqeJUkcN6xhCmuITAMyKYuHq cpNB6ij0tX+txqengfkI/2+4CicLjsVc4qkmk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=RXdv02xef3klhZUN800pGbrZocvD4f/9UPgQ+L0KtrU=; b=JiiwwzhRH/IALWpCpw0MDM7SLv95KeUVaYl8fn+YD4my8ObOFtsSI+/PoHiu8Jqcvw gM/lexqNStDSOqFGPopA9PTbPcFQ3wr61R6sXT5HLE36hfveHT426+eDl7dTUPCKN/Bk Zy2cHP171/KlNSw9HAky+zDv5TxBuOR6HijLCC27b6C0J6HBGUL6PGer9654BcXG6wQh U7Bq6j1yRAplzhLKvCcmVb5hc9tzMWP0sCMbIJkMvBPSBAuvwkomj9A3D802Hh31jRS8 tKloqx4+ODH18IR7feulmK1IaExmcFMeFKhfB4t2WQHBLDlS74VUOEMjN0QfEUmA0lb8 sI7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532U2CPb3SnMQAwZ4lTwEL4X4YMz4dplsV1C3HuIMMzlEpxTAc2z 1zkJU4YiQ8yvYGqN6vUFYGN7pAtPTRo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxKURtSL0qsMoC1UKp++4W2NOrUZB5CWy+xt6hGB0S7wHT+nLas8Q+/EcM9s2QAfZzEjcb82g== X-Received: by 2002:a37:707:: with SMTP id 7mr18192255qkh.15.1592308558262; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m14sm384889qke.99.2020.06.16.04.55.56 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mRVN0RBBz4S0L for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:55:48 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/9HRa4KaRoA+F2KZbqB7ne_Y"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mRVR59d4z3Xp7 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=JQaS0wv8; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::732 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.60 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.88)[-0.875]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.07)[0.068]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::732:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:56:00 -0000 --Sig_/9HRa4KaRoA+F2KZbqB7ne_Y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:23:30 +0200, Chris Knipe commented: >It just amazes me each and every time when this discussion comes up.... > >You're willing to embrace change, and evolution of new technologies >like 10G Ethernet, USB / Mass Storage, CSS, JS, Lambda's JSON, etc... >Yet, you want to be stuck in the stone age when it comes to email. > >Do you still use 360K floppy disks as well? CDs? > >Things change, embrace it like the rest of the world, or move on. No >one is unfortunately going to dictate to the entire world, what they >can, and cannot use in terms of a MUA. You're most certainly not >going to dictate that to me, and you're most certainly not going to >dictate to me how to (or not), send emails. > >If you want to be stuck in the stone age, then so be it. Feel free to >not read my emails if it bothers you that much. When I was in the Marines, I had a 1st Sargent that liked to shout at the recruits, "SUCK IT UP, BUTTER CUP". He also had a lot of other colorful sayings, none of which are appropriate for this forum. I have always found this quote apropos to those who are stuck in the past. "Things don't go on forever, and the quicker you accept that change is inevitable, the happier you're gonna be." =20 -- Trey Anastasio --=20 Jerry --Sig_/9HRa4KaRoA+F2KZbqB7ne_Y Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7os0QACgkQOHMGOIfe xWQSBAf+L2xGahGYOnu1liONhkjzCJNudH0nbnBpuMsXWNl2ZnfOa97wYc+RXXyk k4zDh565mxReGeC4147oV7DWIH7RhKya5Lm8Xa2lAIQi1CcI+kn6EsPSxTi9tFGi P+FyKpHjo1CsY1YYFB5fIkYwTaw7feEl3lCo4n50gHDPmmhEZsAU88rrhAkN+7DP ZkpFhri4Yv8tEewgn+2xVw2rGPd3EzjliT6nFsD4f/m6SudrH27LiFaBcuNF/12B s9tk4m+yLpvsKkSJTb7476UxC3byyLHhwo9WpfgNKFhlXHFV/2blgIVRRMESIQ0A RY+sdXLI7rhVOVRXQd24fqvQfeTNtA== =2V30 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/9HRa4KaRoA+F2KZbqB7ne_Y-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:04:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A80335ABB for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:04:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.75]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mRh23xmQz3Ydm for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:04:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MFK8N-1jenU13tUn-00FlWC for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:17 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:16 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vtspNDvzC09RkZ8xzsc3PDESDPIlsHLJrCR1S07Ns6PEJvpfS07 XQZrO7pBVZC2lxAuMC14RTFG5fgy516nLY/1HBSfhEXy0kr/4d+biKx6/ExjQrAOF9eJBIn Q509XZ1pqevwbBQSxIwAQeW97gsjgTMaOKExWFXRW2hL6GmTVKG5EI2arCMKxDu8CN91Dyv JqCoa4KhLIMBumloHsnDA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:8f088AmOlLs=:+G31/u9414YPveVkIvrkyl CVa90So5I9ddXFkgO6RjX07K30kerxo7MrZ8Axz9CbQA84kWVvLMq62pSI4cjMMmjrAMrgOPg ZXLueBK/Czm/yZrR4ZvaWNI0KEWV1Tk18+cbUZdvx8Qjt+qiRo5sXN+szCZ+R2kXdJF/8ZLGa NQSZ13hph0fQgoeVj8p2Oa5Gm7bqrlx9ZEKSSaOc6p2GELJUmhtj//HtpvZqZOCCdjG/CXRP/ lF5GOnpdHkcqcJWl8yW6/pMOsaldtIXS3kD2fP1Zhzsse4J4noX5vYnpFRwEZjJZ3JSBDdQTD nN+IPXn8gGA76Os7QNDuL6jrdhdML/AkHH0zcZFr9yrtY911ly1McY4EP8EAXz24sLPFuzjKw +OeStaXtztb2fHuYrYIiqzcHDkPAKbV3M3kdN6VAyublkYHfsjSx+vbKwJdwCdB//73JjHbEH zEXnX6DZJkHYLYd50ByOcrfBQmjc8SCfWGZbHOjTPafAJ0M+Hqmj4VMhnza4WM60nPFU9Mxot fYezw+BaGApe6p1vlJUXa6xGr/DkrGWgQz0WEPzg0Ex27SqZ+DlzcovmAjRL5RwWcdWXFmNf6 /rKdMpI0GTrS6R0wdMTOMWfUvBfaAFILwNI21rjV1hK7SS8x8dtOEFVck4ilEVJNGo9KdRThW aey+gngV4+Hy9k9prrted83rGYUuCInEKlTg9mVIpqn/63P/SG4Ghv2HN+j9LlTMo8yae6DMY McKLsQv62q1uUygdzE0Cy32kDd0DtE3dK5+WsMdvFvVCBlxgkjGVC/fC4vHqV+5sqKYU234Ch /s0r/gAQ3OOGN/4/5W5qmdOD2LYlL9UjdrB3xA2g4qxvRuonpNYCpvqHCDRbZlj4T4hhxtX X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mRh23xmQz3Ydm X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:04:19 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:55:48 -0400, Jerry wrote: > When I was in the Marines, I had a 1st Sargent that liked to shout at > the recruits, "SUCK IT UP, BUTTER CUP". He also had a lot of other > colorful sayings, none of which are appropriate for this forum. > > I have always found this quote apropos to those who are stuck in the > past. > > "Things don't go on forever, and the quicker you accept that change is > inevitable, the happier you're gonna be." > > -- Trey Anastasio While this is true in general, one should always keep in mind not to confuse change with improvement: "newer" does not magically imply "better", so educated human judgement is always welcome. The only thing that goes on forever, is inevitable and is the fundamental requirement for all human beings is ... exponential economical growth! :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:11:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF260335F24 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:11:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mRrt2nfPz3ZPK for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:11:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id r18so10706604ybl.5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:11:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pV3WCZkqTx8VMscWFOkUx9TgBUfAA9YOU8+5IZ75AH0=; b=ENOkqFvK3EL0A/SZDa7GaXEIrk+NgodZtZwKq0AY5nBp1xC3wjjPWmhDFcWyGCz5YN zN5YnwmgqUFztcREQaRwMGXCV5RdSih5N+eZZNSihuEgrIPgzeyjf0VXtr2m1bzW2SdG 97sgOiXj+pyZfh1kk7jrGxD0OsJ68OLc9qk+MJg5Tf8ikvri4rDGVeiNzn0OphO8QY6T 3v9mRS7d9PYvdv8WGw/w5xvDwAvcGIPB1ZHjuaGimZYLV/bW2P8hSMm56osC5Zm3yHm4 xEVqV6IuBrV6nXKNbAN55VdOtloDDj8aTgJulUjAohmDBvA+X3o688ud+5YcZKEe70Z6 4slg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pV3WCZkqTx8VMscWFOkUx9TgBUfAA9YOU8+5IZ75AH0=; b=bJYvcHn+yIX+SH0gwFhTWf1XcaLF2GNLgRaSyt4MXCSiMnJspkRaRCKVkoIENBvJ2F 0/I02qZtUYSRYZXcudJDOkreRXC4XsvB2mRKpytRcy975CNWbjWUDhlEFsjhdfZNxrc3 XvNZC+JV4aXbOhUNRusKfyjusguaerEn4tGlcdTAdBw6QVSw0HAlywF+sNd/H4iwR693 aLbONIoBts3dw2mdL7Awdic3I5oDvMotwfw77tE4nijPGKG5Tt1bkoTP+ZDxnIu0S2Dq HaF3A+enaV1PAO8GRwQKcSivpLJvJ8p/lFwX/ziXVKByaEgoZw7hyBJJrTef3vDKYHUz oIVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533CIUmDuv7KBUuLNcQI4eHjIsEX8VlL8nGKVH40r0tCL5n8pYZy b4NV13FIAvYcjvZR0fmuXO4b/+qPxT93WU9iNKPuQw/X X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxV2rf/CYDjvBYw6ErDjlvFfaIQXfcEZj1g+9abBSm1D6RKsuVGypxl0J+nxgKkCJ0CiUdwx/6jzRm3sqF0wXk= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d755:: with SMTP id o82mr3357886ybg.166.1592309517410; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:11:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:11:46 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mRrt2nfPz3ZPK X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=ENOkqFvK; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.14 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.06)[-1.057]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.012]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.871]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:11:59 -0000 > > > While this is true in general, one should always keep in > mind not to confuse change with improvement: "newer" does > not magically imply "better", so educated human judgement > is always welcome. > That is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Frankly, I am -very- happy we have moved past 76 character width limitations, and text based emails with crappy fonts. Yes, there is risk involved, sure. There are risks involved in -anything- you do online these days... Again, there's means to protect against it. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:20:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017553368AE for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mS325wT9z3bP1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MTiHd-1jJyYj2LHB-00U3AG; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:20:44 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:20:43 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Chris Knipe Cc: FreeBSD - Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:SBjF98/WNP6PIGTU6Pb10c37N3wITZnb0gt+Yt/YgI06yAgDSHg G7LCvhazqRRgcXYQpw6p4kElOBrtioYnpwcKzhsd9UZkzXUkFRXz3J11Nr9yMrhk1BZbdJZ wzwcCyrfWfNaYhKESSbx1PozP2TpIAN0U2XLAYpADJ7FTzk8HpfU4/LS3QlxCrFbTO5XCtx Zs3imBOuF+TCHzjsRl7hQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:01gjgiYdceM=:uMTTo4Z/ZTRHS2EdPJVUfC T2M07Fz7jKdGR3iqMsh5PJNUBH1DMhbaZ0JGP55reWQa9Yhpb5vDdHKXqVBRfJNevy6DNULuQ LxLQV8qdPfJKzeIWaEiiqMR01SN0PzAPLCBsVxR2PvxEkIX6nAoq9NN9maQVO3DVAqRkShj6C 29x0C37MVzPGFm4aa9Il1qwMRn01WYX+n8djaiNrHE+Xhg7vZo5jJcgFfSBdBz4WKhv6Atrx7 dXEybABMVg/JalaCPY3eNjrhoak19AD0YRsenLCLyKV51qkCAQsFl04M/C8HIqmcMnHwhXnUz sFUPlQHt2EzZbh0BvE001/+KVH0293FZ6S8dT5blq+HbG0qwqacbixnABNbWFknzdTiaF/Fx0 GUcjXw+xROSKYZhHp+1xHGe6AD76fmcJh54o96KN0iyiwrYN4fLsm2usNBHMGcmPcga3pZu3c bqlpLfRptCaYyWgJatlCXk1JYMxIQ8A/M8W2b2YHYYM3NxoylSn701XQuJRy4p0+OEWMZwGb5 Z58BvgKcwjt81lWV6kiiWsloLOdBe4tsUsYDV0j5MadhIGwTPK3KLzM32F5I0TjIF1kGX8Rcz X0lndLUyepcWSbadgFNiN65MxQR4k345QRYbE4W0MspqcV6cPByex5mDK1lLHz/KwOA7IweSa 2Gl+DwydJpl4igVkGne/S5/vBMAw27Q0QJPyAj5XnxJrMdA+lI0h0AUpPSyvcDLGGS4ZxSQOm ntjfjfSmV8+rDwE74IZG3wcb4vlbzIvQvxFRLnBiWQFvK36b03IhkHe+y5mtS0G46zn2lJkN0 AvkysCMBjjrTlREo4U60L0fLSnduElfUE79KzmjJQ9+OpSrOERD8Y0xnB2iWO7ejBYCNSxD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mS325wT9z3bP1 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.47 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.909]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.10)[0.096]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.88)[0.880]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:48 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:11:46 +0200, Chris Knipe wrote: > > > > > > While this is true in general, one should always keep in > > mind not to confuse change with improvement: "newer" does > > not magically imply "better", so educated human judgement > > is always welcome. > > > > That is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Frankly, I am -very- > happy we have moved past 76 character width limitations, [...] This I can definitely agree with - advancement in time _and_ improvement. While it doesn't mean anything technical for the message to have short or long text lines, it's the MUAs task to present them to the user in a way that the user wishes. Remember it never was a limitation: you could send mails with long lines from the beginning, it was a _suggestion_ due to terminal width and addition of quoting levels (see term "comb quotes" for possible unwanted results). > [...] and text based > emails with crappy fonts. I don't understand this. It's rather the other way round when you have HTML-based emails that force a specific unreadable font face and font size, and your MUA cannot be configured for a bigger minimum font size. In text mails, it's the _MUA's_ responsibility to offer the best font that the user (!) desires; in text-based MUAs, this responsibility is moved to the terminal emulator. Luckily, both GUI MUAs and terminals today offer you to change the font to whatever you want - and this option has been there for decades. This is, in my opinion, not a problem with the mail (being text), but wuth the MUA (using unusable fonts and settings). Fonts are not a matter of normal text email. They _can_ be a problem with HTML email. (I won't discuss in how far a mail client is supposed to contain a HTML rendering engine, epsecially in the absence of normal multipart "text _and_ HTML" mail generation.) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:20:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AD8B3368AF for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from mail2.nber.org (mail2.nber.org [198.71.6.79]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49mS3653v6z3bG9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from mail2.nber.org (mail2.nber.org [198.71.6.79]) by mail2.nber.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05GCKjcO048304 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:20:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:20:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Feenberg To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size In-Reply-To: <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> Message-ID: References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (BSF 287 2018-06-16) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-KLMS-Rule-ID: 1 X-KLMS-Message-Action: clean X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Status: not scanned, disabled by settings X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Interceptor-Info: not scanned X-KLMS-AntiPhishing: Clean, 1970/01/01 00:00:00 X-KLMS-AntiVirus: Kaspersky Security 8.0 for Linux Mail Server, version 8.0.1.721, bases: 2020/06/16 03:31:00 #10802899 X-KLMS-AntiVirus-Status: Clean, skipped X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mS3653v6z3bG9 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of feenberg@nber.org designates 198.71.6.79 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=feenberg@nber.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.021]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.71.6.79:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nber.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.986]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[198.71.6.79:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.04)[-1.042]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:26287, ipnet:198.71.6.0/23, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:52 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200 > Polytropon wrote: ...> >> When will FreeBSD supply a CD image file that can actually be >> used with normal CD media again without requiring a workaround >> and possibly breaking the result? > > Shortly after someone figures out how to and submits an acceptable > patch - you may be the first to have been inconvenienced by this, it's been > a long time since I used a CD. > That is rather disengenuous. Is there any chance a patch that removed some packageswould be accepted? Hasn't the decision already been made that there is no problem? I am unclear on FreeBSD governance, but I don't see any mention of this as a problem on https://wiki.freebsd.org/IdeasPage which does suggest that a patch is not desired. Clearly the issue was known when the ISO was prepared. There must have been arguments for why it was better to go over the portable limit on ISO size than to drop some packages. Without knowing what those arguments were, it would be a waste of his time for Polytopon to pick his least favorite packages to delete. Is there a relevant mailing list where this was discussed? Daniel Feenberg From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:22:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D11336BD8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from mailout.easydns.com (mailout.easydns.com [64.68.202.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mS5H0CVpz3cMx for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BBBA4E70 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailout.easydns.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (emo13-pco.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id orq4kFky45hi for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hedeland.org (81-228-157-209-no289.tbcn.telia.com [81.228.157.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 06588A4542 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pluto.hedeland.org (pluto.hedeland.org [10.1.1.5]) by tellus.hedeland.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05GCMaVB093395 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Per Hedeland Message-ID: <9357b967-f022-fb7b-1c3c-c64ed8b5b149@hedeland.org> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:36 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mS5H0CVpz3cMx X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of per@hedeland.org has no SPF policy when checking 64.68.202.10) smtp.mailfrom=per@hedeland.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.47 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[81.228.157.209:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.37)[0.367]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hedeland.org]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.04)[-0.044]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.35)[0.347]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16686, ipnet:64.68.200.0/22, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.68.202.10:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:44 -0000 On 2020-06-16 13:37, Polytropon wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400, Jerry wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: >>> Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the >>> FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record >>> this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium >>> (here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). >> >> Are you referring to: >> >> 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso >> or >> 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso > > As mentioned at the end of the message (discussing image file size), > the file I used was FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso, because the > system it is intended for is not 64 bit capable, so i386 is what I > will have to use. > > I think the problem here is that 728 MB exceeds the standard that > says 650 MB and allows 700 MB and, by use of nonstandard tools, > does not guarantee for anything if you successfully burn 728 MB. > "Is possible" doesn't imply "will work as expected". :-) Well, no help for you, but it might be worth noting that FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso is actually 867(!) MB, and that https://www.freebsd.org/releases/12.1R/announce.html says: disc1 This contains the base FreeBSD operating system. It also supports booting into a "livefs" based rescue mode. There are no pre-built packages. Additionally, this can be written to an USB memory stick (flash drive) for the amd64 architecture and used to do an install on machines capable of booting off USB drives. It also supports booting into a "livefs" based rescue mode. There are no pre-built packages. I.e. a) it is only the base system, no packages that can be removed (though there are sources and other stuff that *could* be) - and b) there is *no* claim that it can actually be burnt to a CD!!! *Perhaps* you could mount the image via md(4), remove/truncate some of the files in /usr/freebsd-dist, and burn a CD from the result. --Per PS From FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-memstick.img: $ ls -s /mnt/usr/freebsd-dist total 548264 4 MANIFEST 76640 kernel-dbg.txz 38592 ports.txz 157568 base.txz 40800 kernel.txz 162400 src.txz 4 doc.txz 60064 lib32.txz 12192 tests.txz From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:22:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73E72336CE4 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mS5W2VQZz3cQm for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com with SMTP id x16so9331368qvr.3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:22:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=yTWwbw/Kktrxz5vQMLSbL7xYbXjNyYjq6g65xFVJHr8=; b=dr+tx+ndMj9zn4Y3mJBznA3dR/aZl9qYJjsP/BC1KuFJvVrW2nVM2cq//1Uuasa0bl 3V1427z0enQKqv8EOvHCSZO4TjoewkVghe3mDcqJ29y59XYFxae/HKHNmWrgX7RcI3a+ b28R0bx7B7X90HYY1WE0y6F7d5TdPrZ0+9c00= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=yTWwbw/Kktrxz5vQMLSbL7xYbXjNyYjq6g65xFVJHr8=; b=mxbDTU+keC29CrXHSIFt1dCztdPz3qBgEEW+o2DEuyDWing4Crx+551FYJPBh1rO1C JuhpgU+S0Zg35ChB25ObZqzu5xK0jJTaQJAQ3GtDbHycDCO1xbsAh/Rihx4AXJ802JTP Xo73qASOJgxeKaFX3L30SqDwUJ4+snElyCNhJNFUThmgwReJDWgrwQmaYJPXTtJX/JU0 w+LDoamu4KSXb14sawUEaVQZVhk2P35TFODrx6wVHfKj1BBKUtBBbPOsi7+BhHq7Pvh0 NGyplSwF7Pt/zeOQe73F56qLNWVLug2W61lNkVAMCXpnHrrxWJbWsoeYDCnemhndpasq qYwA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ljj5qGPSc+eud92dMe2zbqs2icbHmOwFuFHH5cg0Wpjt9y3Pe Z4fR6GxH6rlP/EHEV3sTX1AQ+cpMjdE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzevTAVO6JW+cpkQy2uj2dOiCAWeprd6wT/y9r3oVQdgR40o3nrWLcXXjdnN+Gm9U/2vjOUoA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:134f:: with SMTP id b15mr1884811qvw.208.1592310173904; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g185sm14048485qke.122.2020.06.16.05.22.52 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mS5S02z9z4S1N for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:22:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:22:45 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-ID: <20200616082245.00002dbd@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/+yRqe65O0WeW8bO1BUeFP2R"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mS5W2VQZz3cQm X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=dr+tx+nd; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.77 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.77)[-0.768]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.87)[-0.869]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2c:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:56 -0000 --Sig_/+yRqe65O0WeW8bO1BUeFP2R Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:37:53 +0200, Polytropon commented: >On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400, Jerry wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: =20 >> >Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the >> >FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record >> >this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium >> >(here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). =20 >>=20 >> Are you referring to: >>=20 >> 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso >> or >> 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso =20 > >As mentioned at the end of the message (discussing image file size), >the file I used was FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso, because the >system it is intended for is not 64 bit capable, so i386 is what I >will have to use. > >I think the problem here is that 728 MB exceeds the standard that >says 650 MB and allows 700 MB and, by use of nonstandard tools, >does not guarantee for anything if you successfully burn 728 MB. >"Is possible" doesn't imply "will work as expected". :-) I can confirm the problem. I tried writing the disk on a Win 10 machine, and it threw an error that the source would not fit on one l disk. Now, Poly, the price of a DVD drive is minimal. Why not just swap out your antic CD-ROM drive and install a DVD. You don't have to go the Blue-ray route, unless you want to. If, for some reason you cannot fit it into the case, just get an external model. Problem solved. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/+yRqe65O0WeW8bO1BUeFP2R Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7ouZUACgkQOHMGOIfe xWTdfQgAwcp5MpYeycyvoKUZKAZSQkOM8X19k4oVPRyAYb6G57SD7TF9izj8j9YP giRYcR5MTy8IAJXZldNL5Ga/2S92K85pk/g6088Bi/cuK5Ry46LEuNG09rKW4lWK bMDBXvtkrRzr/d5T5CWcitF4Z88N++yw7k1VLCsdDCYQBkkxrwgY7ThK6TGeta8T PQ4+4C6+UzaB9kbLq3CG4/tIjfTw9rmdQOOlPWtrrkYxwrU8uor4ozek+bPK1F5P te1wTUzBqN0XJEjZ90fhhK3yqniH/LhmfOvSwCggchOnJjnGbzZjjSrhIR6gH5vv 3jTCWri31biifL8jD78Q2s61fJj4SA== =73Eb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/+yRqe65O0WeW8bO1BUeFP2R-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:28:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA2083372B1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:28:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mSD76TV6z3cqj for ; 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RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:28:40 -0000 > > > > [...] and text based > > emails with crappy fonts. > > I don't understand this. It's rather the other way round > when you have HTML-based emails that force a specific > unreadable font face and font size, and your MUA cannot > be configured for a bigger minimum font size. In text > mails, it's the _MUA's_ responsibility to offer the best > font that the user (!) desires; in text-based MUAs, this > responsibility is moved to the terminal emulator. Luckily, > both GUI MUAs and terminals today offer you to change the > font to whatever you want - and this option has been there > for decades. This is, in my opinion, not a problem with > the mail (being text), but wuth the MUA (using unusable > fonts and settings). > > Fonts are not a matter of normal text email. > > They _can_ be a problem with HTML email. > > (I won't discuss in how far a mail client is supposed to > contain a HTML rendering engine, epsecially in the absence > of normal multipart "text _and_ HTML" mail generation.) > https://imgur.com/a/eW01Zc2 Your own message - a very good example of what's wrong with it. Straight from gmail. In outlook (for example, which has a narrower reading plane), it will be even worse, as even -more- scrolling would be required. We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH sessions run at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) - we're way past that as well... Whilst I now have to scroll up and down to read your message, I could have seen your entire message in one screen without the need to scroll up and down. What's the most efficient? I guess that's a matter of opinion too. I hear what you are saying, and I am by no means suggesting sending a 200kb email, with 10mb of HTML embedded in it either, but we are WAY past, 80 col, 25 rows... It would be interesting to see how 80x25 actually looks on today's say, 34" monitors (or whatever the entry level monitors are these days) -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:50:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9041A337C10 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hruodr@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x62c.google.com (mail-ej1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mShz5pXsz3fQr for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hruodr@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id l12so21319211ejn.10 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:50:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=PJBdzJL1duogtsvnAjVT/N41hTLLDYmbyHQGarq8OKA=; b=lLkc1Ppt0nU+NYYC0dvUgpv5cq7Lq94DTych6EUvceUeJBxWi4oJbjR0HDHFrhzX47 GGVi4yQoxHqp0kmV5OUv+OcBCcos7sy2JGqAJjw5O1ORCpDJRAxnC++vvoVPtQLdNgTx X29Dq1H+7VszPcDTUOt9jN9iEmb8ZdbTA2+AjyrdOpPhmDS6KyU3loGPmOkvZ7huLBvn LLk3ortUFUnSay4nmO4JThFyMGLm4aWwLkBhjKNisSjtl5w2rZ0K0XpIU2Lgo+1qmxzh QBSiEDNwbaxrM82tgWT/eRRbvMpoBvIrsWDiVJBDB1rlVbo77XBpOcdiunCB0K+O6PE/ DUFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=PJBdzJL1duogtsvnAjVT/N41hTLLDYmbyHQGarq8OKA=; b=C5BLAWxdbd/iXEDkFnk2n8/+meZDxsPwtJ0lX6f6hWojVhbjYn3giqW82kMbbGjdYz tDOJagTyeIf6OCH/Xl6qSO0BESsYAU1tNuUKtivzuMmwPNcdomknCJnD9yY2C7TyFLDQ Jl53+VZSwn2rwhkvlngFSsyrKLVRnfCpVwkVZM4eZlnrL7RNICn+fKo3zQ3zsceLgEnJ SM8qMVcxwCVgauM8IyHQy7prCIfrvOLgjZf8j2cv2WxrnpKKlQ30JSItFpZs8i3TLAvp Y5c8cmhg67H3GWAh+MVcgwlE3aURmOD/H7FrPT636NQKR1mvpaBV0rnouco9urm1CNtg DDBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533NucTi7IV9gAvV4eRck2GTk6StG3MRaIYchNqe2/K0IF4gi8aI R/dLYmLm7ReELJMPgDtWZZJKigzRK4g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxPh1c2rr4rYnnVGlA4SziGRRk1JpnZZk+VkttK0WXs89jWJj12+oUZtU//mAkNjGd6CUDaTA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:468e:: with SMTP id a14mr2593567ejr.124.1592311809791; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fbsd.fritz.box (dslb-178-000-144-171.178.000.pools.vodafone-ip.de. [178.0.144.171]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id fw16sm11061804ejb.55.2020.06.16.05.50.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:48:52 +0000 (UTC) From: Roderick To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" cc: "Kevin P. Neal" , "@lbutlr" , FreeBSD Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd In-Reply-To: <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: References: <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (BSF 419 2020-04-12) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mShz5pXsz3fQr X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=lLkc1Ppt; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hruodr@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::62c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hruodr@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.0.144.171:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::62c:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.52)[-0.517]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.028]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:12 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > In message <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org>, you wrote: > >> T24gV2VkLCBKdW4gMTAsIDIwMjAgYXQgMTE6MDk6NDNQTSAtMDYwMCwgQGxidXRsciB3cm90ZToK >> PiBPbiAxMCBKdW4gMjAyMCwgYXQgMTE6NTQsIGRvdWcgPGRvdWdAZmxlZGdlLndhdHNvbi5vcmc+ >> [...] > Bullshit it's not relevant now/anymore! > > Please wrap your lines at 75 columns and please use 7-bit ASCII only > without encoding. > > Some of us never got onto the Microsoft-induced insanity bandwagon that > preached that all email messages have to be HTMLized (and thus 10,000 > times more bandwidth consuming that they need to be) and also we didn't > sign up for the notion of having email, spreadsheets and other such > crap be executable... a glaring and obvious security hole. > > I still use the NMH mail client, which dates from the 1980s. It is > plain text only. I have never been infected with anything. There are some users here writing Emails with body base64 coded, not even quoted printable, and perhaps they are not even aware of it. The mail "standards" are full of casuistic, the MUAs became very "smart" and take decisions for the user. I realy would prefer more simpler standards and demand more formating from the user, but who will impose order if even the biggest companies are promoting disorder? In any case, this discussion has little to do with FreeBSD. Perhaps the FreeBSD forum is a better place to speak about it. Rodrigo From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:50:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9B8337DAD for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mSjR1ZFMz3fTv for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id x189so12620642iof.9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:50:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WRNYRSaXkeQkqgWTScrLwnd0k6Y2aM1TIsv7XugPOjU=; b=HU9/pIpjQxFMsn0ZypvTdDZ52dyh9GTO/gLpeb2VJcBugRgmHQstHcvUQ4+hEKfzJS 1kQ8BbHwPMNNyri5I6ICfbVaenLriIjsYv2a9bgdlSQNJhMqJozpwWTl3sPHCo98dLJv ua07Hxq3QL/wq3DPJv54TLCqusVR/WXhRxs8UDTBwVNCwxlstOn4jhge/PeUJqZYwkjr ySA1vBOCXtIa+BkK8+SmZ2QvbDHecTgXSK9ojz7/J0BJdCUiQb6mT9Jr5sPeojH9xrcy Wwp0+S0m4I9/Wv2u3wiUJ0XlZDWsl15Rn9QhDcsfKpJsK23L/JUnub7CT2xRWnu8gaT+ HkRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WRNYRSaXkeQkqgWTScrLwnd0k6Y2aM1TIsv7XugPOjU=; b=dWNd4OgAXamcCSQOae00GgsNgAOXZ+0hfJLyZqdf/qoAlS9sSTIMmmFbAWV8pdbTDc uMx90BideQMgt9HXEpIVfjEywilTflJaVErbdgTrwcSnnYxJsYN1fYu7n3lg8al3DCsx fuF+ZGWIHglY/KABZxWnRFxg8Yza9hBFOX1RSjIGtr9YKwmAbPJwEha2+Pd5D/TTXOvz aieHCWJDumWvQrMhaKR/8UXEk7J6J7/B6ZdVRNkRNl3nYT7Rv++k3dxui4jNicuaqZ71 mHlnT5TnE7UnLFwi5oYCClvFkY3d7nARb6xs31cwPqitnMLyLh/nNwwneYTcjbWPzu/g VXsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531HuIaRQq7RwOcclYbTHM4pdf5YXU5k17jNXqV5Eh6FY+80+HTI VHoo9jEA2P2Jnti3NwPehXsPn8pDHTPZ/AcWYRkJJKYm X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzGjXfmysjOhqpBvBs6VuVMCPh69c0DgmsxMOdZZBG8CvzYY60XcbWTr9PVukyE5C+g7LmmWrAvrp8AhSVsbiE= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:1448:: with SMTP id 69mr2408516iou.83.1592311834087; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:50:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:50:22 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mSjR1ZFMz3fTv X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=HU9/pIpj; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.52 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.040]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.49)[-0.485]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:36 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:28 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > https://imgur.com/a/eW01Zc2 Your own message - a very good example of > what's wrong with it. Straight from gmail. In outlook (for example, which > has a narrower reading plane), it will be even worse, as even -more- > scrolling would be required. > Reading the original message on gmail was no problem for me nor unreadable in any way (you must have your gmail configured in some f'ed up way!). > We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH sessions run > at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) - we're way past > that as well... Whilst I now have to scroll up and down to read your > message, I could have seen your entire message in one screen without the > need to scroll up and down. > Maybe if you have *perfect* eyesight you could see it on one screen! (Not everyone is 18 and has vision better than most fighter pilots). And you might be wrong about the row/col count of some/most SSH (X based terminal apps) for example on a 1920x1080 monitor (27") my 50 year old eyes need 37x135 (not that much larger than 25x80) when using a xfce terminal, the default font size is unreadable even with 1.75 diopter reading glasses (which are not needed if I use the above resolution). Before you go crazy about how everything can be done via a GUI I have one question: are you a programmer or a sysadmin? (if not then you have no idea of how useful a command line is vs. the GUI). > What's the most efficient? I guess that's a matter of opinion too. > If it is unreadable then it is clearly no efficient. > I hear what you are saying, and I am by no means suggesting sending a 200kb > email, with 10mb of HTML embedded in it either, but we are WAY past, 80 > col, 25 rows... It would be interesting to see how 80x25 actually looks > on today's say, 34" monitors (or whatever the entry level monitors are > these days) > Entry level from my local computer superstore (microcenter) is 25" and I am sure I would have an even lower resolution there. So no we are *NOT* way past 25x80, you are just being dense and an elitist to say otherwise. > -- > > Regards, > Chris Knipe > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:56:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A99D337C7C for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:56:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mSrd5nnhz3gXW for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:56:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com with SMTP id n123so10749693ybf.11 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:56:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QDlHyjPTTYKRnn/7QBSiV9KU+PXmtQQgiVknS29OjPE=; b=Z+obFJwqIXsEfvYQ+TWLqvIN9HTqHcLGLDm3h+JjgBL5hUi1jZcLt79VSxhwSXQgA8 h9C+3BiVN8MaWJeetfO1z2D1/iX2VgcwzvwBF2ULnPgFc59+c5PF75yymEvinew6gCUH 9JMJVVUtMiJiM6PNXvRIlPOoPJzU1yaSRta6pcqAjewUMJBgDnDruEo/26ZYnknC5acP CLKCeXBw10uoK4kzGqndGuIcB9LbDkFOc++hJJjQb5ueSj8XcaL7SusLszV2uR+74ma6 WsOsWEavxaTUuSh0Cdd7g1asOeFQPp4feJ3zPeOM/9U3KoRd9UZKJBTHWTGXJRN1ljxY 8pIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QDlHyjPTTYKRnn/7QBSiV9KU+PXmtQQgiVknS29OjPE=; b=Q1W0LhbOdfEFcTK09Qwo4wsHkaTnSIFZBVByYkzRGYnJNgam6J1SpbuTTIh0DeiTNm mVEOXu4An5YadubCNpRohVjTjphUaviiSh/S/FfjwMFhah3I11bDJptmha9erVy5c0f0 p8vbT9KhsGCANCVtbRFieObNNPWYY5g8ZXzfdCSHYwfpXfAx+XqD2u6aGVW997k9Ormy Nh5blO+VusbdgKirr4cN+/yVEQCznwGrf1wArdVzgVG0+dVo+QyjEEWzLylXUodxHHRZ wlaN1XhrfeL6a+wqMSEZsu6yXhoDyH7/fEO/Q3Own4V65uwZyhp2Wzni8J9UzbwFSBm8 3BeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5321FIgMkFfGZ8lr3EjR3jteWi7yumKV7O6ftsQgnXoXrffqPzom VXbNw8XzOG9ap77Z8NBfACH0iUv7qUSW/1A49djtPQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx/dPeaXiNphTvLgRQhCizD2ZMPUyeyRShpFA86FL52mefZQ4sYtiVKIuP51X6QHMdxnkvDXrhV9PX+2/pvjGU= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bcc2:: with SMTP id l2mr3629804ybm.154.1592312208513; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:56:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:56:37 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mSrd5nnhz3gXW X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=Z+obFJwq; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.69 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.46)[-0.456]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:56:52 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:50 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:28 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > >> https://imgur.com/a/eW01Zc2 Your own message - a very good example of >> what's wrong with it. Straight from gmail. In outlook (for example, >> which >> has a narrower reading plane), it will be even worse, as even -more- >> scrolling would be required. >> > > Reading the original message on gmail was no problem for me nor unreadable > in any way (you must have your gmail configured in some f'ed up way!). > Never in my life, changed a setting in gmail - so that's how it is displayed by default. Don't blame me, blame gmail. I never changed anything. > > >> We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH sessions run >> at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) - we're way past >> that as well... Whilst I now have to scroll up and down to read your >> message, I could have seen your entire message in one screen without the >> need to scroll up and down. >> > > Maybe if you have *perfect* eyesight you could see it on one screen! (Not > everyone is 18 and has vision better than most fighter pilots). And you > might be wrong about the row/col count of some/most SSH (X based terminal > apps) for example on a 1920x1080 monitor (27") my 50 year old eyes need > 37x135 (not that much larger than 25x80) when using a xfce terminal, the > default font size is unreadable even with 1.75 diopter reading glasses > (which are not needed if I use the above resolution). Before you go > crazy about how everything can be done via a GUI I have one question: are > you a programmer or a sysadmin? (if not then you have no idea of how useful > a command line is vs. the GUI). > Well if we have to get personal, I am 40 years old, psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis affecting my eyesight, with glasses. My monitors run at their default resolution of 1920x1080 and I have zero issues seeing anything. Maybe you should go for an eye test, and get some glasses? PS: I do sysadmin, networking (my full time profession), as well as programming. Been doing so for 20+ years actually. > Entry level from my local computer superstore (microcenter) is 25" and I > am sure I would have an even lower resolution there. So no we are *NOT* > way past 25x80, you are just being dense and an elitist to say otherwise. > And in typical FreeBSD mailing list etiquette, now we get offended and start slandering people. Nice discussion, I'm done now. Have better things to do than enter into personal rants and arguments. PS: You are the *EXCEPTION*, not the *NORM*. -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:58:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42343381A1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:58:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com (mail-wr1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mStH0PZrz3gv8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:58:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id j10so20657131wrw.8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:58:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=38j++3xdpjNlH40BU1U6FwHTtsyvGcYcPBFheq0u0bs=; b=OmmXqlmlIClwUxUJ97o/bMYlZSvMaZq9kXMI/iE7IGTDW84NaVZWw9c0FdTdWQp0Df GAbd3Gh1g5kgrxnp/lY3gCeAEKqzEEMDtm+2z/1xGdsamJvQkB+oPhcasc8EmLeknzdI J0tvjVdufpugWoywEQhuu6z4wfh6RyZBDLqlupzIPuXLBCJQrB6dgadXaYCxIYRaZCGw /3RIX+vP+ndpxILzbEAXQEwl+8DSuPWUwp/plgoBHBCuOrxihaKw8u5dwSu0Di+i3Lmk Vw97YEchP7xzIlq7Qn23FmWHv31DZKo6j6NvZvWHJW1g+nKrZiNW8yk0W44YSx7LsL0J Y37A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=38j++3xdpjNlH40BU1U6FwHTtsyvGcYcPBFheq0u0bs=; b=LAnlqv7+OunifMHBALmlE6HA5VM909ujsLX3esMg70cNf15IK/C5NOfIP+h/tjwlbC PMpvempmjSAFypaBeDUje0/z/Eg3mJ4SCsJrPmoaEcKicZDUENDexqIh9x/s1hHpzuLI Pu3575hk4yoFhw3yI4Q/flggop6pgR5Up31easwxiIoGR6bL890L7hdsQuqwkVbbtUZn O2ORpuxebSyCJZ1+BEPLwRr2/w/OMZNoEua02Ui0tVSuJ9mpW5HrCx9DnhmGHDI2+k0x p6Vrepie+gg4YvbFlfHm0Px8g7ImlS+k91oGLtZ5vPWRg3Z0x0/lUw2/7eethnNls8wa zvBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531KQu3z4HeEOY+cuQ9GR1r8NxocMSoJatJDNRhCR8T525rOzwiA hoXriNkn7gohVdT7OE3HtlDrpYzqsLAS78LIX/R/+Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwWPK2YQiiLteozN6dIM+iwARUlyFPdL1H9xiDFu99OemEx6SNdL6zZmOB9Bc+xPRWessyov1CnFiR0dr5OENk= X-Received: by 2002:adf:c98a:: with SMTP id f10mr2943638wrh.329.1592312292461; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:58:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:57:06 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe , "Ronald F. Guilmette" Cc: FreeBSD - Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mStH0PZrz3gv8 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=OmmXqlml; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::432) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.74 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.971]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.48)[-0.481]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::432:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:58:16 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:23 PM Chris Knipe wrote: > It just amazes me each and every time when this discussion comes up.... > > You're willing to embrace change, and evolution of new technologies like > 10G Ethernet, USB / Mass Storage, CSS, JS, Lambda's JSON, etc... Yet, you > want to be stuck in the stone age when it comes to email. > > Do you still use 360K floppy disks as well? CDs? > > Things change, embrace it like the rest of the world, or move on. No one > is unfortunately going to dictate to the entire world, what they can, and > cannot use in terms of a MUA. You're most certainly not going to dictate > that to me, and you're most certainly not going to dictate to me how to (or > not), send emails. > > If you want to be stuck in the stone age, then so be it. Feel free to not > read my emails if it bothers you that much. Just my "dwanascie groszy" - yes I still do use 360K floppy, I even work on cassette adapters with my friends so the data source is pure analog, I love my Atari, yes we create all sorts of wild extensions to that old nice 8-bit machines (Stereo Audio, SD card, Bluetooth, Ethernet, WiFi, even FPGA).. I also use CD-ROM (my nickname is CeDeROM heh) but that does not prevent me from using BD-DL 50GB disks.. also I sometimes use MUTT shell email client so I fully understand the MUA compliance.. it is just about respecting standards. It is the difference between adding EXTENSIONS versus imposing MODIFICATIONS / ALTERATIONS. The reason I choose FreeBSD as my OS of the choice is because it really has and keeps the Unix spirit of coherence, minimalism, and versatility, while new features show up without putting everything upside down all the time and it clearly shows this approach is possible and works fine especially when it comes to long term maintenance. This is what makes this OS and its community unique and so much different from the others nowadays. Sure if someone likes bleeding edge they choose Linux, if someone need quick results Windows is out there, and for nice looking Unix there is macOS. Apples and Oranges. All other platforms seem to be already tainted by "change is good" and "enforcing changes" ideologies, which _we_don't_want_here_. FreeBSD does not seem to be for everyone, but everyone is free to try it out and make his/hers opinion about (not) (choo/u)sing it. If someone asks to use ASCII 80-char wide long text here then for sure there is a rational reasoning for that, because that is the minimal possible set necessary for communication, otherwise the message would be ignored as unreadable, and the decision is on the sender side. Have a good day folks, stay true to yourself, choose whatever you like, stay free, and stop forcing anyone to do anything, imposing ideologies here is futile, we do not care about them, there are better places to do things like that, we have so much more interesting things to focus/create/build :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:16:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B63E338D93 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:16:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49mTH32pmCz401W for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:16:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.140.222]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3DD7C4E6A5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:16:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> <9357b967-f022-fb7b-1c3c-c64ed8b5b149@hedeland.org> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:16:07 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9357b967-f022-fb7b-1c3c-c64ed8b5b149@hedeland.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTH32pmCz401W X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.51 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.222:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.87)[0.869]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.34)[-0.340]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.88)[0.880]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:16:16 -0000 On 6/16/20 7:22 AM, Per Hedeland wrote: > On 2020-06-16 13:37, Polytropon wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400, Jerry wrote: >>> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: >>>> Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the >>>> FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record >>>> this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium >>>> (here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). >>> >>> Are you referring to: >>> >>> 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso >>> or >>> 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso >> >> As mentioned at the end of the message (discussing image file size), >> the file I used was FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso, because the >> system it is intended for is not 64 bit capable, so i386 is what I >> will have to use. >> >> I think the problem here is that 728 MB exceeds the standard that >> says 650 MB and allows 700 MB and, by use of nonstandard tools, >> does not guarantee for anything if you successfully burn 728 MB. >> "Is possible" doesn't imply "will work as expected". :-) > > Well, no help for you, but it might be worth noting that > FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso is actually 867(!) MB, and that > https://www.freebsd.org/releases/12.1R/announce.html says: > > disc1 > > This contains the base FreeBSD operating system. It also supports > booting into a "livefs" based rescue mode. There are no pre-built > packages. > > Additionally, this can be written to an USB memory stick (flash > drive) for the amd64 architecture and used to do an install on > machines capable of booting off USB drives. It also supports > booting into a "livefs" based rescue mode. There are no pre-built > packages. > > I.e. a) it is only the base system, no packages that can be removed > (though there are sources and other stuff that *could* be) - and b) > there is *no* claim that it can actually be burnt to a CD!!! Disagree. The name plainly says "CD", nobody should re-define plain English words. Even more: by continuity, this always was meant for burning CDs. The size of image exceeding standard restrictions is really annoying, and ideally should not be tolerated as "released" by self respected organization. This is just my opinion. I as person attempt to apply this to what I do. Valeri > > *Perhaps* you could mount the image via md(4), remove/truncate some of > the files in /usr/freebsd-dist, and burn a CD from the result. > > --Per > > PS From FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-memstick.img: > > $ ls -s /mnt/usr/freebsd-dist > total 548264 > 4 MANIFEST 76640 kernel-dbg.txz 38592 ports.txz > 157568 base.txz 40800 kernel.txz 162400 src.txz > 4 doc.txz 60064 lib32.txz 12192 tests.txz > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:18:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD1D338BEB for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:18:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mTKx3xK8z40GM for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:18:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id x189so12722781iof.9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:18:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ijvEIFUkdQ7ty5G4JLuTrf40ChEIfiawqO5eYJDolZs=; b=V0XSYneRFUFNCt5XxvqqjtUlMJeOLJCC+IUJIAI1S5a3LlkcJcndByYRuvOPu0q8kF EWFVibvlHddBMvGXqoDIyvSiNRXw/d8W8Om08jDp9h7NlGBNCxc332xMcxkfXfKDXUQH igBu3FED85jE0iGfubfQIfeOBPTekxIQmy0eAV3/lfpfeHgdeME1BUql1exqio1kmUxb HFYCiJg7YedYfXna8gCwL3DrWCa1wWPmavVheVbwZOj/g2aiqEZNI8z0fvQP+2NwmHX7 ClzjRZe89qIOgJ9tpnhkz0X5h+PvUCvxTu8sDg+2EacPsPHmg1mwWs/rUE2NvSBUdyPx opzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ijvEIFUkdQ7ty5G4JLuTrf40ChEIfiawqO5eYJDolZs=; b=A5fqVIi8Q39GOd5ApJs8r6IWJCpUdGzoeds4MhL+AKPQDbc+pR9Xf8ec9PKm9s16W3 SBeTA+T1CSV87diiAkzy1LXz4WSNuhe/rRh4kjxabtgB+Tu81xmAZ/S5HhzeW3NugdWH NxixqLyCP8duNnN6IiK+uC3pDE8L4j+JOzvAn1AGNns/BGvI18w8WakScsXKAcQvmRfx WmV4PeeE5loMMyCfyqtbYO9smPxlPb4vPwPquW9I9Jfa+dfqDSyq2f7YMbdvczG5aWzZ WOPBX39FeiVMr9IUF+G2dtnSotTzrk85ZgMMvlmebkVrkz8n8XcbmsHKcUxDUs0HDBVo fB5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530u3K1f7y74LNev4r3JBd++Zk548PiowxC40YPTitbYhW2yf7BE 0mFmUISOZRWIfHmCf7J31YhbXlyowOma6MsD0yk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxEsFlD6FZkgQQmDlZEckrbcWLsk/YI6F3yNSYnn7XFWSmtY6/XNwnh0Y2sEoby4RWP8vW4lgYZv6wO4ZBpSr4= X-Received: by 2002:a02:6a26:: with SMTP id l38mr25766120jac.60.1592313524358; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:18:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:18:32 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTKx3xK8z40GM X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=V0XSYneR; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.58 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.040]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.54)[-0.543]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:18:46 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:56 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:50 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:28 AM Chris Knipe wrote: >> >>> https://imgur.com/a/eW01Zc2 Your own message - a very good example of >>> what's wrong with it. Straight from gmail. In outlook (for example, >>> which >>> has a narrower reading plane), it will be even worse, as even -more- >>> scrolling would be required. >>> >> >> Reading the original message on gmail was no problem for me nor >> unreadable in any way (you must have your gmail configured in some f'ed up >> way!). >> > > Never in my life, changed a setting in gmail - so that's how it is > displayed by default. Don't blame me, blame gmail. I never changed > anything. > Then if you don't like narrow messages you can always zoom in ;-) But seriously you are complaining about something that is beyond trivial to customize (for example control-mouse wheel is your friend in most browsers and not just for gmail but for other sites, some need to be zoomed and other need to be zoomed out... almost no one makes the right guess for font sizes and such on the web). > > >> >> >>> We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH sessions >>> run >>> at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) - we're way past >>> that as well... Whilst I now have to scroll up and down to read your >>> message, I could have seen your entire message in one screen without the >>> need to scroll up and down. >>> >> >> Maybe if you have *perfect* eyesight you could see it on one screen! (Not >> everyone is 18 and has vision better than most fighter pilots). And you >> might be wrong about the row/col count of some/most SSH (X based terminal >> apps) for example on a 1920x1080 monitor (27") my 50 year old eyes need >> 37x135 (not that much larger than 25x80) when using a xfce terminal, the >> default font size is unreadable even with 1.75 diopter reading glasses >> (which are not needed if I use the above resolution). Before you go >> crazy about how everything can be done via a GUI I have one question: are >> you a programmer or a sysadmin? (if not then you have no idea of how useful >> a command line is vs. the GUI). >> > > Well if we have to get personal, I am 40 years old, psoriasis, rheumatoid > arthritis affecting my eyesight, with glasses. My monitors run at their > default resolution of 1920x1080 and I have zero issues seeing anything. > Maybe you should go for an eye test, and get some glasses? > Just did, a few months ago, and except for a slight case of farsightedness nothing wrong with them. The doctor said it was completely normal for eyes to lose their ability to quickly shift through different size objects and text as they age (the lense is 100 times less elastic at 50 then at 20 and 10 less elastic then at 40). > > > >> Entry level from my local computer superstore (microcenter) is 25" and I >> am sure I would have an even lower resolution there. So no we are *NOT* >> way past 25x80, you are just being dense and an elitist to say otherwise. >> > > And in typical FreeBSD mailing list etiquette, now we get offended and > start slandering people. > Anyone who brags about how someone elses tech is "too old" is being elitists (not everyone has deep pockets and/or works for a large organization such as us freelancers). > > PS: You are the *EXCEPTION*, not the *NORM*. > Not according to my doctor who says my eyes better than average for a 50 year old. Also since I help out with teaching a few CS classes (as an unpaid TA) at the local university I have noticed most of the 20 something students also increase the font size from the default (not as much as me but about 20% increase). So I don't think I am out of the norm (i.e. not more then one standard deviation from the mean). > -- > > Regards, > Chris Knipe > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:22:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268A93390A8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:22:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200008494d0.d1af8f9c2ec8e84db9d3bc1bfc9a5ac5@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mTQ721pzz40YW for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:22:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200008494d0.d1af8f9c2ec8e84db9d3bc1bfc9a5ac5@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592313743; x=1594905743; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=SPjnB+tucWx38oCJvKG1iuB/IC/jCMn0R+Byv5tHXYo=; b=NrzMlbom5xnHZrONHv7parGUtY1QFau3IN2YhNLdAKf4MDW2rISRhBL1vJhXEFEjC2+uOVwFJS2ff3iXiBPj2NWlI/ypO0QBbfMOJOORudw3pQeIt5fSO4aLem1QtT74tUrcLazy3vf7Ii3toB2yvEHrt0wrDlHQWupM28UZ2L0= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA4NDk0ZDAuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.1]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:22:20 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:22:19 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jlBXe-000BEK-BY; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:18 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:18 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Daniel Feenberg Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616142218.7e52e13710955a096b930573@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTQ721pzz40YW X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=NrzMlbom; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c200008494d0.d1af8f9c2ec8e84db9d3bc1bfc9a5ac5@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c200008494d0.d1af8f9c2ec8e84db9d3bc1bfc9a5ac5@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.022]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.881]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200008494d0.d1af8f9c2ec8e84db9d3bc1bfc9a5ac5@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200008494d0.d1af8f9c2ec8e84db9d3bc1bfc9a5ac5@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:22:25 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:20:45 -0400 (EDT) Daniel Feenberg wrote: > > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200 > > Polytropon wrote: > > ...> > >> When will FreeBSD supply a CD image file that can actually be > >> used with normal CD media again without requiring a workaround > >> and possibly breaking the result? > > > > Shortly after someone figures out how to and submits an > > acceptable patch - you may be the first to have been inconvenienced by > > this, it's been a long time since I used a CD. > > > > That is rather disengenuous. Is there any chance a patch that removed > some packageswould be accepted? I'd expect a patch on foot of a bug saying disc1 no longer fits on a CD would at least be considered. > Hasn't the decision already been made that there is no problem? I am That is not clear to me, the size could easily have crept over without anyone noticing given that CDs are near obsolete. It may well take a bug to draw attention to it. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:29:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DD2B3392BE for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:29:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x82f.google.com (mail-qt1-x82f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mTZ16JBYz40XD for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:29:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x82f.google.com with SMTP id g18so15388318qtu.13 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:29:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=/zQKf0qiooJARBi7W7PffjFwNvdnpl5XtRrREOT3NvU=; b=WdHZZTpReVwJU6WVmsFYcshdEk5PH2p3KVYVCPJNkH6IE+kshqaqw43TTwEzfGA2l3 D9mUIzxMKekm2bWScOxDfhoglFP85ySe+Q19FeMt4nk26m2ooICYf3vcugoqEZ9BlJZ/ s4o8E3Fu/eGeR28Zrh713tnWWJlpToRFMbFMA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=/zQKf0qiooJARBi7W7PffjFwNvdnpl5XtRrREOT3NvU=; b=Z4pU/U/JYLN4D13Pp7oqpVHlNcao8KvzYG86ACY2539lhz2M+JGMLMRchnEx/ugMoR a6Hs0Da58Ud6w2pCH5+53pDPqdT1Pbjt9nxKT/SEhxyylmG5gkfcjzfWyP2SOpAPrwDx jgysa29+spYrG3lOpLO92JCZVnDrXBNdvQtTOOrUnZxwyY4ajZbUt5JaluFvLsaEy3eA 6gJvhA9gx5SidD89kqu1BH6zhQ0ZjABk1SLGeW3Drt3Zp5abW3SgyX6hp1SZFYw5ll4O 1WjrdinKZ/JviFyDcoHMebVjZj+w9zVsgNyJvbkkaIeo7WKRMOvv/q6aLq9PfjoVi/rm aNjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531h9yLnsUE8YMydXjckcWjTEs63ET8eEPSVgKAGYw73NiQAVS8y pZKreYQ/4VKKAkTUZHq9ODQPDyF8ifE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8EY26jgVz6aO6eMEmizZA4UaqPCinLWC7L6jtacS0CGvxXEOSvLKb1Zu9g7xni2xetOY00w== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4243:: with SMTP id r3mr21890247qtm.225.1592314152266; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x43sm15498526qtk.70.2020.06.16.06.29.10 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mTYw5vl1z4S6L for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:29:01 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/.c/XivGW/7e1EeY=EFa6afr"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTZ16JBYz40XD X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=WdHZZTpR; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.95 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.58)[-0.584]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.88)[-0.876]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.990]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:29:15 -0000 --Sig_/.c/XivGW/7e1EeY=EFa6afr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:50:22 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:28 AM Chris Knipe >wrote: > >> https://imgur.com/a/eW01Zc2 Your own message - a very good example >> of what's wrong with it. Straight from gmail. In outlook (for >> example, which has a narrower reading plane), it will be even worse, >> as even -more- scrolling would be required. >> =20 > >Reading the original message on gmail was no problem for me nor >unreadable in any way (you must have your gmail configured in some >f'ed up way!). I just read that message in both Gmail and Outlook, the program not the web site, and it presented itself quite well. >> We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH >> sessions run at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) >> - we're way past that as well... Whilst I now have to scroll up and >> down to read your message, I could have seen your entire message in >> one screen without the need to scroll up and down. >> =20 > >Maybe if you have *perfect* eyesight you could see it on one screen! >(Not everyone is 18 and has vision better than most fighter pilots). > And you might be wrong about the row/col count of some/most SSH (X > based terminal >apps) for example on a 1920x1080 monitor (27") my 50 year old eyes need >37x135 (not that much larger than 25x80) when using a xfce terminal, >the default font size is unreadable even with 1.75 diopter reading >glasses (which are not needed if I use the above resolution). >Before you go crazy about how everything can be done via a GUI I have >one question: are you a programmer or a sysadmin? (if not then you >have no idea of how useful a command line is vs. the GUI). I am not a doctor; however, I am quite aware of how detrimental to your health a projectile fired into your skull can be. Your equivalenced of profession to knowledge is a fallacy. Many people study other job skills although they have no intention of even entering the field actively. >> What's the most efficient? I guess that's a matter of opinion too. >> =20 > >If it is unreadable then it is clearly no efficient. > >> I hear what you are saying, and I am by no means suggesting sending >> a 200kb email, with 10mb of HTML embedded in it either, but we are >> WAY past, 80 col, 25 rows... It would be interesting to see how >> 80x25 actually looks on today's say, 34" monitors (or whatever the >> entry level monitors are these days) >> =20 > >Entry level from my local computer superstore (microcenter) is 25" and >I am sure I would have an even lower resolution there. So no we are >*NOT* way past 25x80, you are just being dense and an elitist to say >otherwise. 1) Not everybody buys the bargain basement item. 2) Time is a moving target. Your definition of "way past" is solely based on your own opinions and observations. Personally, for me anyway, once a train has left the station, it is gone. Obviously, everyone has their own opinion on relevancy and suitability to task. 3) In virtually all cases, I never buy the entry level product of any line. It is almost always the first one to go obsolete and/or not be supported by its creators. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/.c/XivGW/7e1EeY=EFa6afr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7oyR0ACgkQOHMGOIfe xWSj1Qf+J9WU8zz0F7ljtrBfHGVhx+uX7GSG/XWof16tcKbjqLiKFbupDKhGiqMe do60TzOyrp/6O661bJ5MMtyqbduD31CuqtzneFgW0B9m2kxPEYRHAqx5QcoHPNIN ZZB3wvOA8dtrcXHurdQ92mhnW2Sp/W1PYqUjtOZmBXpUqKETDd+kkxfU6JbRw+Ht syazf4R6XC4c/jV6D2HPzcluktShjbxLFXyLi7earWyJ0StkRF915hFaSvprsibW gRHZdTrzLDvBY7oTEJcrYPswqIK1ESN5BFrnvoOd2hQ4yaXvSKAXowxrQzUBRMnF 9/AaLBnmFd4MxlYPJ5oHjsFydP4jhQ== =Lwpz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/.c/XivGW/7e1EeY=EFa6afr-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:35:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70463395CE for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:35:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mTjW3tlHz412w for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:35:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id c75so18778703ila.8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:35:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=+4F86d7joH1XGf9J00YZyjCQ7ZFHK7wBXqOeNz0Jzs8=; b=LsJRkgvIoBcPHuu5crJZubu9Vh9jbLOcHOOVeZOvmzhVEduy616mtayOz1oU00pomx a1kBklltf+mWF2Efgdde6iXfawhRdNDfnR9JFvVcZvCwqAFGBB7gO+pK+WZGiftGz4kf 9qnY+A8h69qWAqVb4Vvu5l0xZ2HgjY32t2hOEu+6CQIEMhNbv2rbEjT2U9DAU3tewfYD o5YMyMP50BQVdZfpThcZ2z4D25WtpfZnqlI4Sin2fY5xEogdEkZlGfNgfQXSUzwLbxYt htujbvo3XrJwNzKCHyro/97haqKylTYk4sVZ30kO74JPJPXLrq3AGb9B8PgOL0aIC7xA H0yA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=+4F86d7joH1XGf9J00YZyjCQ7ZFHK7wBXqOeNz0Jzs8=; b=gTfVsnErHfUpnEDeDUpku3H6n85DmweeD5DNP7pzFtqbMD3Inwz/m+IfQLXAoTuK28 3V0UsrDDwHTOwKQru9XzEoIrJQvLQuskIIsDvLlTzUwe8ST29Wxpesw1jU6m5pFD0yyP QkiL8I3D/86klGN0f34oI/JV+ONvJD1aixtOiYG+8nUIhOwg4pVVJNHKt6FNmn9wo2hb vQLDcqZeoPhcN9SVQ8pH20U8EDBcZ5GomQ9U+BTkV/W7O3oCVC3sigs7hQyIXMacJYtm vcib7+1LjocCAGFi34mq49fGANjvdsWtNy5kKii2LTsMW6eqMrDnUeE8auXUVdQmIFOc OlOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532IqsK4nC2InJtvTe+ahLIt4TMiKGpwtzWxxr4FM3cGpPvu4+3V 237BTpbfuGLtekW5mR7u+zKvuPqTwU+crk5/euwdzKrM X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwLMI2qDH91MA333g3rom0TT3Kcvt6oTbPiW8s6ZyHQM3T9JzadW4RPnUuwMCkA7hsjhbuR2T3gXuU2uQNmyyU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:10c:: with SMTP id t12mr3050944ilm.187.1592314541867; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:35:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:35:30 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTjW3tlHz412w X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:35:43 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:29 AM Jerry wrote: > > 1) Not everybody buys the bargain basement item. > > [snip] > 3) In virtually all cases, I never buy the entry level product of any > line. It is almost always the first one to go obsolete and/or not be > supported by its creators. > News for you: 1. Not everyone is made out of money or works for someone who is 2. Some of us have more useful things to do then buying tech we don't need like paying the rent and putting food on our table 3. To deny that the above facts are not true for at least some people is the height of lack of empathy and/or the understanding needed to pick the right defaults for a system that needs to be useful to as many people as possible. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:40:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751333398B5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:40:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic315-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic315-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mTqN4Xqrz41Hd for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:40:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: __GHR6MVM1mqkWrsQxzSrALTGFLMGEp.poMUe6nr4eZ11P.R0fU9K8cH1G39DX_ bjMPUtQauBIQRVihEYWMVLjX9927XXQD.e87CaMNHkAao2w37BKIOrXdmHK9nnYPpfsFmm.E7t3q aQKXcdLD6R7_kFQGvTndyUHMwFTT_R77.ob7H3QhvFr0BkVwxIDs.dqi_It3lb6gj26icuNURTHP vRzictmfDojjPqEVciyuBX9i4KYJ.R3jyZUPXYiUb9BCAutBl4G1nu0fQiWZ39mSCMBsxTH1jtPE ynim7m8ttZ7GqcmnvZ43haJ7GeGs16MMRhf_TK4_tdA1lUfpNGk1NnnoXuOUNYdzyGjldMSTOPl_ WP8p6_JSI63GsXr93tepyihws78E2U1JcFJcYyMnN3S.UzmD8icJYL12dzf4AJRUO4z6g.8WDO3f 2CED2Mx6llSIOi1wNKlkMe3.ct6sCtGZUikMOgz_Dojoi5Z.HlaedGNPgucmjRDAqMRXQR0aHxXy .GCzBnnk6I6DiDHqvieAHglYTfjvpBQUybCZ9Ah6ZRwydUY0ReWIaAY9pmXWlqwcpO1k9aaFomIb bUngE.XYxE8B0c3r_sVsRnVpPZh0CgSVvRaTC83afpOoPwhBVBnXCpHXd.40WEyGRuucsirPxq3o NNWQJXryJxczZf9.NXlRrUHeqNCsNhr.7mBPYtIpF_akiEy3lB.yHGZLyNC3XTCi6DLw3O7pknA9 FHyl8DDE8JbEysz34yAmhiTfl2g3W7pymGp3ZVogqrQ683ybWnuQk2xXI2G1RfSKq9i.FYt69l.E cUbO.Fscd7TQb6z6nzSuMYsy8p.cKf5GKsIcnPb_wu2RMhgLVUypDxh9kC2Awcqj7Cip.x5fs1Ch vh_E2Yb_0LJEBOx5EZ2i3rbXdFCOT9sep25MYjPTD3geiCG_VfmZZq6FCiegLhqKHyC_vR_gfr8n hky848YeTqEoN89UNsG6dlMFJ9FeGCwoGdR.sKrM05ghUbwae68QoTewrc0ziZF7eoYDo7HriuXw wIQO7_J18M2YM0VSXDGJWiImwA.F0iJHredXF2Rm.dvgackTXfulVc2o9ATEvSqB3eqBgsbhUBeN nitc3uOu.ZdRGYMJqtn3izJhPPfUCB2JRoAS6opUCs6VJNotfP810fX9k5hELmCqpZuzL8yxd.wt xcao1mwZT9ImJLXfpHQvM7OB6.73_g5mjeFEGMMEGzp.5BAEtc4tGfsA_7hOrfwWRst0xBGqLzqT F1hIR6iflaCn7IV7OC3DTcSem03Z0dAcFPPcOjP27ULgUbpNe0rjX5ufzq7iMCTVKYkN0EG2bTQk MUoqf6oaOxRiaNlF2vBakbHhhcxtH5pSqXw4hW4EsWvkoME9MCxh0I9eXort44qCAZ80jA9NDw1j VEcsgehYjwPlxlsBSAdIN5JqN.KDz32ls53ypkK6zc754 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:40:47 +0000 Received: by smtp408.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0622b5f3c442cbdd13ecf35a59579c89; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:40:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-f52.google.com with SMTP id i4so1610398pjd.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:40:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ZRuHvb9C6oVVePGpntgoru0MoufzDM7JjS7fZe196XBh3lgpr yOpb70Dq11KIQuTMlo2XpHhpJ0G2VFhA2VEdFOk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwNi6T+GPWtQml1SEZu7cvS5WO/IWbtE0a0YkpVws5/CR8QYJk6LR+R+kdcOh1MTE12ThH2ruCp2eR9iRGu2Dc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4ecb:: with SMTP id v11mr2867547pjl.75.1592314841355; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:40:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:40:25 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: FreeBSD - Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16119 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTqN4Xqrz41Hd X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.18 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.965]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.190.146:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.52)[-0.515]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.190.146:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:40:49 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 12:23, Chris Knipe wrote: > > It just amazes me each and every time when this discussion comes up.... > > You're willing to embrace change, and evolution of new technologies like > 10G Ethernet, USB / Mass Storage, CSS, JS, Lambda's JSON, etc... Yet, you > want to be stuck in the stone age when it comes to email. > > Do you still use 360K floppy disks as well? CDs? > > Things change, embrace it like the rest of the world, or move on. No one > is unfortunately going to dictate to the entire world, what they can, and > cannot use in terms of a MUA. You're most certainly not going to dictate > that to me, and you're most certainly not going to dictate to me how to (or > not), send emails. > > If you want to be stuck in the stone age, then so be it. Feel free to not > read my emails if it bothers you that much. You're missing the point. If you don't like email conventions, use web forums, Facebook, Twitter, Whatapp, Tinder, Grinder, Zoom, or whatever is cool today and out of fashion next year. Electronic mail is an old protocol with RFC's for multiple reasons. (See what you did there? You didn't quote any message, so we don't really know the context of your reply. You could be right, but posterity will never know.) -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:41:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50FE63398DA for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:41:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000853793.96ba6469ca08878bbf2586e5bc0a6592@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mTrZ3BMZz41nM for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:41:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000853793.96ba6469ca08878bbf2586e5bc0a6592@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592314910; x=1594906910; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=LHflI6XbIFbGgTXfn6o7TBcfbT1bELk2PHp1rzeu7sM=; b=fyWnq7ONogcoCo2RTOCqQIjxuwhF9dTj3D/OAE7uZHG91fc8qIHxdJ3Kjtw1jv7fQolIrFzWHlURupFST+mMS+z4w96iCCmulO2UVnMQY4shgWmYWTbnJ6H6C2rzf9jiVxFRK/KQi/64NGbcoFsIHc35MZYVCYyVBriL6e/KRCY= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA4NTM3OTMuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r2.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.12]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:41:44 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:41:42 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jlBqP-000BGT-9I; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:41:41 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:41:41 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Chris Knipe Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD - Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTrZ3BMZz41nM X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=fyWnq7ON; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20000853793.96ba6469ca08878bbf2586e5bc0a6592@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20000853793.96ba6469ca08878bbf2586e5bc0a6592@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.022]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.004]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.910]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000853793.96ba6469ca08878bbf2586e5bc0a6592@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000853793.96ba6469ca08878bbf2586e5bc0a6592@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:41:51 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:28:27 +0200 Chris Knipe wrote: > We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH sessions run > at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) My ssh sessions generally run at 80 columns (more than 25 rows though), it is useful being able to fit more than one across the screen. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:46:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 201CF339DB5 for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TVCqI3EE4Chz11jzOLJvCVYoephQlb9LYh5rcJTZaZU=; b=fiH6WIShY6q13hwxEirMld4xAi/lbA9dPZnrjFs9ueIGxbgnFaVqjbOPiigRJ5nrNK 9+frMdlI/EnlT/VDzntPjmFelgZyqvXKgtdXAqQ/BG6u3dAmnOzWmJAHUM5lxpXkPDEa zIOyL4hPBHySbYHNMLLdQJftlqbKch+3bc0eHZwlPeuzMkiOgiqFz2ml64tFaY61t111 x+5ZTc21FWjy07Zd4ZU9veqSitCZB4JvTM82fGHCVFFc9KovIw0RQTfx0VYQSMgHlZVI 8Zb3U70rQ7XA5KC/Ih3/xhROUVgIS98q5zFAG6zT4v0AFYkWKvv4IXVSV5W/g1eUDIBG QGJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530l4Uke+Tfc2Nmokyx/O7BmrL6bfxl7YSZqOq6rjx7a9V6v1+FM 70XuHo/dinj8Rs081EgfJ7vSv+7vMDL6ygbJ8Lw7Zu0mNuQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyuZXf6nMqpayKfq6p+V/dRz7pFVsF7Z4yB/mrG/+v/Aeyz9tOFfcuVonMjsvWdZc2UUlLllHfQ4IyJR6rFt/4= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d755:: with SMTP id o82mr3959509ybg.166.1592315165909; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:46:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:45:54 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTxW0lnZz41dN X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=L4pdImeW; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.24 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.042]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.015]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b34:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.981]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:46:08 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:35 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:29 AM Jerry wrote: > > > > > 1) Not everybody buys the bargain basement item. > > > > [snip] > > > 3) In virtually all cases, I never buy the entry level product of any > > line. It is almost always the first one to go obsolete and/or not be > > supported by its creators. > > > > News for you: > 1. Not everyone is made out of money or works for someone who is > > 2. Some of us have more useful things to do then buying tech we don't need > like paying the rent and putting food on our table > > 3. To deny that the above facts are not true for at least some people is > the height of lack of empathy and/or the understanding needed to pick the > right defaults for a system that needs to be useful to as many people as > possible. > > We are talking about https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#idp44832888 It would -seem- to me (personally at least), the majority is kept back to cater for the minority. As I've said in my initial post, I will use whatever MUA I want, and I will send email in whatever standard I deem to be acceptable. It would -seem- to me, that the problem is YOUR choice of MUA that cannot decode / display said email correctly, and not mine that is not encoding it correctly. If you want to use old / outdated technologies, that is your choice. I know of many, many freelancers having even better hardware than I. If you choose to be stuck in the old age, then so be it. The majority, can't be technologically held back to cater for the minority. If you depend on said tech to generate income to pay rent and put food on the table (like all of us btw, not just you), common sense would dictate that you'd want to continuously improve on said tech to be able to use the latest and greatest technologies to woo said clients and get the business in order to get the $$$ you need to pay the rent / put food on said table. No my friend, it is your CHOICE to be stuck in the stone age... In fact, the entire tone of your message basically reads "I use old tech, and therefore it MUST be supported".... -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:53:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7253339D48 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:53:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mV6444V6z42Ft for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:53:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id g28so19179645qkl.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:53:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=0XtivKeTVSyQPTo+9KjAXmnf4WGqZ04Ri0BxvWVne28=; b=ZxvJn1N4bh0eFg9tZtaSe3JutgORWanneDI1+ApGpoCFF1HtXubQeJCJxpdiBHRbqv mnm3VZIvuoH0rPfxQVRhYarfAnTaggCOu8BQvS05IblsUcZMA7PbKZGQB4ofQ8cRyVUa b69xbJSyK4KixpR1kOrSN8GWcNkaObBKxDJMQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=0XtivKeTVSyQPTo+9KjAXmnf4WGqZ04Ri0BxvWVne28=; b=GYvuVFBp6mXo4F5+vbbKqW8eqHkX9gsBp7LDJjr9uCFG6YMK14mij3Bui+qsPyiGfp pZ3Wf2XqDsAJyGWNBHBi1ZURiUIMOvZ3Y5529Z1C+P6e1CErEd6roy1K27aatjHTMGgS VQYCzjchzTuOh33U6ElXzIVn1RM9QLFne8j2/So1gH8C+VXG6+q7/89dEhgzv8//tpJJ UZgkLff3+F1S6CinQ4ewJ0xWICAi0MfuIx/LXoWTkb+NadJG8KJlL4N5nNNZntlI3yUl lBTIiXZgkdCx3SXaWXZoPXNs+pRkj46S/qCeNCDebDJMzUvIuvepSBHacjmOx8hdFeA1 gmTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533l78/bk9rqokJ/utF7ZVQ0MuOWi99vnodaZWdaRketK9cNqhiW h80PvRn06Ku/Yfu8X9l9OBV7ZwmHLBE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy6by+gPt/lwyEXhv1Bg/1ZnqbtVlNZeOnhREJGpK/c8dwRl8sAOYFacBGfrh8S1c/Ok1E2xA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:73c2:: with SMTP id o185mr19906499qkc.356.1592315610859; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y1sm15228719qta.82.2020.06.16.06.53.29 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mV604zvkz4S9R for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:53:16 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616095316.000056d8@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/K9Gj7thEX8SCei5FtneGTYi"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mV6444V6z42Ft X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=ZxvJn1N4; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::730 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.89 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.63)[-0.633]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.886]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.986]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::730:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:53:33 -0000 --Sig_/K9Gj7thEX8SCei5FtneGTYi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:35:30 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:29 AM Jerry wrote: > >> >> 1) Not everybody buys the bargain basement item. >> >> [snip] =20 > >> 3) In virtually all cases, I never buy the entry level product of any >> line. It is almost always the first one to go obsolete and/or not be >> supported by its creators. >> =20 > >News for you: >1. Not everyone is made out of money or works for someone who is You state the obvious. >2. Some of us have more useful things to do then buying tech we don't >need like paying the rent and putting food on our table I never encouraged the procurement of items that the end user had no use for. I did mention that purchasing the "entry" or "bargain basement" item(s) is almost always a fallacy, or exercise is a false economic doctrine. You are obviously free to spend your money anyway you want. >3. To deny that the above facts are not true for at least some people >is the height of lack of empathy and/or the understanding needed to >pick the right defaults for a system that needs to be useful to as >many people as possible. Again, you are improperly comprehending what I wrote, I stated "Not Everyone ..." If I might inquire, who picks the 'right' defaults? Has that job been delegated to you? People, any people, are free to choose what they want with the money they have to spend free from anyone dictating to them that what is acceptable. To think otherwise is gross arrogance. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/K9Gj7thEX8SCei5FtneGTYi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7ozswACgkQOHMGOIfe xWQfOQf/SzBcS71rrSVLvCu/E9EALbfeK/XMfLko9jEr9/PH6o6KuR7wOrYLEBtr 99uW+EhHNDg/mcdTATgyY/TCUBAoczHvCkFa5OZPmgtaxnt/ctrI1gW1j8HJYtsb CIpOEBQicmX1GD3rMbuKYHKFcr80CO/IFmHnGDDUKHpkeCm9EZQ1+ChMnS/dJz1E cC38mDGDWcnrPzkaF4Y9oe01QlILiOiH+aw3fpYx7pU8y6zQE5xt5kYNniw1MOQb OVhL56YrvejeIisKH0kkuiOrNefP8W+CDouDNRlO2Foi5Lik++McG9BJzWbV4XPU KkFP+6DEac3A1BtmxI7BA/+MYEl6WQ== =0gf5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/K9Gj7thEX8SCei5FtneGTYi-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:54:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178A8339D4F for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:54:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb29.google.com (mail-yb1-xb29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mV6g1dwqz42Wk for ; 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b=SerbRnMXls7KZQYeM23FmydD9BCQ4qqE12TUHa6jY5Rch8sDvZD7xn7MynAuGn2Ggm +EtzhK75fwHQnFB2KTns6nwGMUUqkDsuoahmMkUkYhopcp1h3/hwenvciq3OcGJ/nyIZ zAAMgmuZdvkKnr8q1iPY5vwqtmioTU1FGFN4jYIyINwpsFzq2fUE+Hxl5wutbnPrsR5Q 6Npf6lGdvagsuPRjgWf9tbFbZ2c1tvPpbEB9/GcPsjY+sBKhOBD4M7Nu7PuLSUjoFkLY ULOVSa8sVHCLpgK8rg+Ru9tYzV/m6Pm6kHOt0rbddEscaM8QIec9EUASy5aK5HKvIWuU 1SRA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Me0jIkbKjE7c2+SgNQ8vtrcCBlzo/oJW/93/O3WzJCCXvh/mA Kc7Z9ZvSnU4N6a7sm2FouBxHobM85/5hs7XUNdnnXA0P X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzZUjK4pOjW6IztYK+l24Q03v7zICRX1ZBNnQzVT3tjZKRwMMadjhIcHxY4WK2pIv8eevDzb1HbUHZ3j4FMvbU= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bd0:: with SMTP id 199mr4418169ybl.329.1592315642362; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:54:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:53:51 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mV6g1dwqz42Wk X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=H3NulLbC; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.26 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.047]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.02)[-1.017]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:54:04 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:41 PM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:28:27 +0200 > Chris Knipe wrote: > > > We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH sessions > run > > at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) > > My ssh sessions generally run at 80 columns (more than 25 rows > though), it is useful being able to fit more than one across the screen. > > > And that's your -choice- it's not an -requirement- The terminal is intelligent enough to wrap the text. Why can't your MUA be intelligent enough to wrap emails with > 74 characters on a line? -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:56:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6950A33A229 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:56:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mV9p0QVkz42dN for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:56:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id i1so1410808ils.11 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:56:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NdbkwtHCyHbIrr9ny7SAWAyWdN3cNmj0sCO3n0FwDW8=; b=CYgicPykXAPxyfsLlOEgI56w3vrXgziU183iJiknmiTspmBJWIBhqs5YJkjzEqOLS8 qPr7v/KNLjpUMtiaEizvUDWbaWqP+3NLxnuz2tG7IzD0YTuDb/KVmUwiHYtonmzlI75+ 7Qub7fWUgXe3opZoNPEEIRD4B4YsLAyWOfcYd6Dx550BQLa/hErZMiXHSvCL1T1n2gZz oE5IhElAj9PszL/uD+t+bDtASa43ZMQwasbZ+kkOlNhNFU7e+nHnA+It9lHfkzQqaLW1 dp3fJUbibvLGdatzjtsqTOK8b4mIJ5EjcxsqPE3hS2K3gjrEqsRgP1BnnuWv+YX3T1cw DTXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NdbkwtHCyHbIrr9ny7SAWAyWdN3cNmj0sCO3n0FwDW8=; b=icR3jxEhggC5wfn4keED2wGXMhem+zc7WhSSiGuQSDdWAeyuzTWKiDnLWF9ES4aAq1 NL5fKzjOIe4A8F8xXC1nOLxWGyWZQWHmf53ErUHao8zPAQfhi+brJ20VmRo/DniHIt4p Yfy72nQQnS2/mr2jFeQuJ+BD0aK0Ahi71jFy0yeDdOay1IN0048vC95+EIqTjyc5GcVy edpoUgOmQbFqhJ4LbUAeXn7uPNeCSgkLW0ROXSVuno3K5i6eixBbMk9693ustAOf9qq0 btBdwsO1wDaJTXAQ1jDFdQRoqiGfRvIcPMeXxkllTME8ZAN1Mx1cic0Z/jAuojwlag6k a69Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5316RntbubdMEe4zFjxMCEV6Ng4F/CeK2C6uY5j6nvkRxd2INsXZ ZH0KZijzB4Qv/9KAjMNu4O3BTBn73U8dRoojraY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzgmPn36JyUtvmdxAdEwXtnug57Nq5J1pNt1HYTr4mBzUJtlRZ86aPJLYSHN50ORojBW3kVYCskzb7AMTsnap8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:eb0:: with SMTP id u16mr3430341ilj.81.1592315804833; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:56:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:56:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mV9p0QVkz42dN X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=CYgicPyk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.53 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.052]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.48)[-0.480]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:56:47 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:46 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:35 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:29 AM Jerry wrote: >> >> > >> > 1) Not everybody buys the bargain basement item. >> > >> > [snip] >> >> > 3) In virtually all cases, I never buy the entry level product of any >> > line. It is almost always the first one to go obsolete and/or not be >> > supported by its creators. >> > >> >> News for you: >> 1. Not everyone is made out of money or works for someone who is >> >> 2. Some of us have more useful things to do then buying tech we don't need >> like paying the rent and putting food on our table >> >> 3. To deny that the above facts are not true for at least some people is >> the height of lack of empathy and/or the understanding needed to pick the >> right defaults for a system that needs to be useful to as many people as >> possible. >> >> > We are talking about > https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#idp44832888 > > It would -seem- to me (personally at least), the majority is kept back to > cater for the minority. As I've said in my initial post, I will use > whatever MUA I want, and I will send email in whatever standard I deem to > be acceptable. It would -seem- to me, that the problem is YOUR choice of > MUA that cannot decode / display said email correctly, and not mine that is > not encoding it correctly. > I am not the one complaining about the inability to do anything. I use gmail directly on the web and never had any of the issues you described. Please be more careful about actually reading what people said before making assumptions about them (other people were complaining about the formatting, I was not, I was only complaining about your attitude). > If you want to use old / outdated technologies, that is your choice. I > know of many, many freelancers having even better hardware than I. If you > choose to be stuck in the old age, then so be it. The majority, can't be > technologically held back to cater for the minority. If you depend on said > tech to generate income to pay rent and put food on the table (like all of > us btw, not just you), common sense would dictate that you'd want to > continuously improve on said tech to be able to use the latest and greatest > technologies to woo said clients and get the business in order to get the > $$$ you need to pay the rent / put food on said table. > I hardly call maintaining the software behind a remote cardiac monitoring system "low tech" or backwards. I will call it life critical and that's why I stay with stuff I *KNOW* is rock solid instead of being the shiniest thing on the block (dead people don't know or care how new tech is if they are dead just ask several thousand people who flew on a 737-MAX *ONCE*) . If you want to woo the kind of client who is impressed by bells and whistles, be my guest but just do me a favor and keep them away from any project that might actually affect someone's life/livehood. No my friend, it is your CHOICE to be stuck in the stone age... In fact, > the entire tone of your message basically reads "I use old tech, and > therefore it MUST be supported".... > More like it has been fire tested to hell and back and passes with flying colors where newer stuff can't always make that claim. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:01:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE8DC33A4AB for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:01:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVHQ6GnHz431p for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:01:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id i25so1616961iog.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:01:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8A4rfHHookcP1UK0zjZj8wEsOqxIMjDToYQtoB+Q/SM=; b=dqPaIvZqjj3oiyLyrIExVvlCQR7FZEu5CZFo/JVJ1gXywycFpvAOtIgxIv7XUyNSkW hOeCxZgokhmeFqLy+nEcw0iFFurQ0Joj+5/EQMyvJU7CVjcbVq/G8sa7lLWo8e+z314Z DERSf59JRIMPCOY4w56AiirZT05Irj90Q1EhH82hvDaUlJ96y9B2d13iOjzefjnkUJbQ DIG9hGnvAg8xX84TfpUPkA6yfW23Ka3140VDtr/CXvIh7iFEl8Rtm9LyT5fEC/HvdbTC J9rAbkcZcWVzfPkPy8TzlRBKvIISkM8G5HiYKT8CoHeT2f9S7drUGLSIDFwgmPE8KkVO em5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8A4rfHHookcP1UK0zjZj8wEsOqxIMjDToYQtoB+Q/SM=; b=i2ZGr7gBAyf1Sgfy8G9lDBLCLKbB5uEisFI0VttYbQj34I1sAwnYBlSu4SJXa0J868 PIExZYaJ8h6j9tQrRM66Vwf4p9kEeCGyr7YLEC2plWAPt4x4V8TI1St6u2cf+QPgeEQ+ cfpUP9AE4AFIEhvYLu4YT2IY53b6YJ4BWMgIiFHXJZVCzzwKE6k6CKf6hglPrlH6wuWt 6aD23NYoNsuYEVDmQ2WFuOSMc4Cf4h+j0d0Zy0khO6U8hGfxKWMWZcd4DzAmwi4GjrPb bN5Z1Fk5sbHqHhb3lKF41LdSunAQiTCeHKQy1Wy8/4yVNMbaXzAhhIS+iCnDzP7sAuU3 Gwrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532m6rZ4A5Q7kLqZ+wsI5/Wp6ZvmymauiSkwtrfiRvENzJpc+uuG +DUgb/ywujkwc17Y0cDOM8N+LnovPKWqB1jWF78= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxRIKCXE2dgF4rUnO+YFtwoHbQrX2ohR1VjUjp3iyVVhKQikdp6cfbWxtYDFJSadaHJY2F4iKvFwUD2oc1YrpI= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:5915:: with SMTP id n21mr2828781iob.103.1592316097338; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:01:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:01:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVHQ6GnHz431p X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=dqPaIvZq; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.045]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.51)[-0.515]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:01:40 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:54 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > Why can't your MUA be intelligent enough to wrap emails with > 74 > characters on a line? > Because programs that try to be "smart" about things are often "too smart for their own good". For example what is to stop it from wrapping something that for various reasons *HAS* to be longer than 74 chars (like code) when such wrapping destroys the ability to cut and paste from the MUA into another file for testing? Here goes a good example: #include main() { printf("Long email lines are not evil, nor are do they need to be corrected, try and cut and paste this into a C program and make it compile right out of the box.\n I dare you!" } -- > > Regards, > Chris Knipe > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:02:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E3233A5BF for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:02:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVHs61mPz42tb for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:02:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com with SMTP id o4so10880918ybp.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:02:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:02:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:01:49 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVHs61mPz42tb X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=ajKbTsCe; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.45 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.041]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.20)[-0.205]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:02:02 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:56 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > More like it has been fire tested to hell and back and passes with flying > colors where newer stuff can't always make that claim. > I bet they said the same about SSL1.0 / SSL2.0, or WPA, or well, take your pick... :-) Even medical technologies, envolve at a rapid, rapid pace... The MAX had nothing to do with 80x25 text, neither does a heart monitor. The MAX was purely corporate greed to rush an aircraft in order to have competition to offer to the Airbus A320 NEO. Good code is not defined by rows and columns, good code is defined by how it is written. Again, please stop trying to insult one's intelligence. -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:04:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0CED33A8B4 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVLS753hz43Qq for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id y5so21911902iob.12 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:04:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d5W7uonZK6yKquMK7ZxRPG20t2XZS/9TaQFTBhBtVzo=; b=BZ/hwint3NNDG2G7AK93xF0AL+cqmgI3OZGmndfKqbcPAO4vasnGJjwgyTS4ZYWSjR nVQNiIWqazmuAu1FbptdRDUL+mgzsnnRFt2LUgc7MHYcxqOc1PqP0IS5Dy3fU21DMxCJ S17jUKZEpTdOl/GOG4FpgOOfQ8ObtOk/+HWzLHuiIGmMYNBbB638e5mIXy6+/RXJePb6 CiVk8APtVjqIiIwvMod+a4SLhNPiHnsp92C/RyAaoFSJjBUg9hSbat0NVonWqBYuGN68 gv9azeL8iVIExwQCkZn6339iXhCugJ1T1wgyeg1N7riJbSME3u4jCYV9W+SrK3onGlPH tk+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d5W7uonZK6yKquMK7ZxRPG20t2XZS/9TaQFTBhBtVzo=; b=FTDnk3SYVUcoc7ZiG72Yh0s8KT8WZ6TaM0x8o1KOp1VzP/D9olPhH3SDocdUVYqUSp k9H+uvEnoDz4MxUxtlM+2VggkCOjCV4aEt8rltWGjcPEouRfNlthOh2cOUhL2Fgr8F8d vvTCpZfFqmGWTkez9hL5VI4HdeW6NDlOD3Lkwk93kW4PEIwsb8rW7oBPKrtpE4ihdrrJ HJkpeh0U6uSawY+9CholxghzshLW/oK+ykR/u+ULS/rk7XYNnTQ++sVOUoNbLHUQFoWH +BSPgAjPgTpZOJXA52jvkZo0iriXx3akttodQ3u5XRbVNwbytm8N0WklmCeMZXWg/rmP wZrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532iJ78yzS01CTtv1GZTGG0UCey9QUlzPA4NZcdMXNa/L+g80cA4 50a1/7eJN77fQwngGduNWCgZxE5NSWLpzP8264srgSRz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyiWjlFzwIWVoAJFBSt2tF+wnPFFAzr1qQHvKxKZQ0TQmfaqVGfuLX4CtzDqU7PZ2kIdIX8p7eY+FkcNTj3Zjo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1243:: with SMTP id o3mr2740419iou.89.1592316254389; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:04:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:04:02 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVLS753hz43Qq X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=BZ/hwint; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.17 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.051]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.12)[-0.119]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:17 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:02 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > Good code is not defined by rows and columns, good code is defined by how > it is written. Again, please stop trying to insult one's intelligence. > What a hypocrite you insult everyone on the list by making assumptions about their (prefered) configuration. Go back to your ivory tower. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:04:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA76233A912 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVLn5YnMz43Z9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com with SMTP id k18so10853379ybm.13 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:04:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=L7jGJB1L8ZWpbfkzGBvxqSEg57MONmTKQNIgINvWXU0=; b=NWgFG8EBj/619186JhfJPvFueRnvztFGkMyabx7Q/aHTcIFscG9AYpUxM98g0Xlg/o HYwb+coNUa+znDB2HN+U5cwB3AGTHTsXcqvwIBZSxeFe1MZ4dpFsSoFMn2RBSBZJLRq7 O6UMJ49JCZKUcp2TwbO3e02e2Iu4apvnyhh/hituJmHtZ4bvanTZaY5JpnXQG1eC+UCP iImJ+ZcKkx+mMYpDQYEicIooBsyeRFkhamFDS/JlluoP07zBOwx4U/JUTBqqz4wLEmMQ Oz+FyqkWu0d6eVxPnd5D62eSc3/ag08VqnJnSiBeWWN7y15QkBhJLfJhRsciSuqtXMIV h8aQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=L7jGJB1L8ZWpbfkzGBvxqSEg57MONmTKQNIgINvWXU0=; b=YkA8Se83EOWAaJYV+xff+8BoUfynGJ0YYkVxCSbwtQZmnL95V4EB7a0bp6WuonGkkH uNr+kp4B7Uwmkc+NlcIN8/GUWVkjpLbFjqA9zQj5wXC7plcw0Ta+RayVcBMSA3KUA5cN x76oYzFPoYw15u/kIzP78cZ+e4IcTD/dkXmhUrDv5XAzvk02UQElqkuAeGwWL0qYdJkJ TXVi7XZ7ixD39OBbvopoYFEHCANSHzbk8Zdod/BdJI0/E0gorK7huxLknsTiGhrZTFTS MQWdqriap4kh2u1d3wm/pfCShOCYWUjNHz2GxdqgjNZ0batb7vhhnVERJFgURdH3smHN +b0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532u2xHI9XU6TAqwC0UYjb5ZFC/PJkzOfYUBQDALT2cqKd/sg7ON M9/LzxPOWTbH63y+m+DbSSPF5w4dpUDl54iso3loFQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxyKtvjx2/6rhTk+cNtBhNow4y4A6rV2M3YaEVB3d3BcgefYXNEA4Zg1/e+Xop26fFziSO7FwXuHa4nLVEMBf8= X-Received: by 2002:a25:3784:: with SMTP id e126mr4765312yba.267.1592316272814; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:04:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:04:21 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVLn5YnMz43Z9 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=NWgFG8EB; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.033]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.992]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.10)[0.098]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:34 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:01 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:54 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > >> >> Why can't your MUA be intelligent enough to wrap emails with > 74 >> characters on a line? >> > > Because programs that try to be "smart" about things are often "too smart > for their own good". For example what is to stop it from wrapping > something that for various reasons *HAS* to be longer than 74 chars (like > code) when such wrapping destroys the ability to cut and paste from the MUA > into another file for testing? > > Here goes a good example: > > Simple - don't email it. If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is there for a reason)... There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:06:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E1533AA7D for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:06:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVP75dYjz43d3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:06:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id a13so1785699ilh.3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:06:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=s/HSN6NTlWcKiPUHnnkFhAfdVrl1OanLgb9w0SrnUrc=; b=uH5nsaCA2CU+eLFRrhG3EihdEYg825iEYOtfvXjN3QtATsdFcSbYglF1+69lsHl4pa rRG8GYMp8XPZnd19yMszQIYSrSAbeLhA78FIV+1DOxjQc1CRSeZaD5Zj90vsQbW+ubUk duCaU4Rm0x9g3ER3hxPnTi9N7uRS4db1pg1ruyHbykmnGCzCNw0bd4a5hKaAv6CcaDSr pTYTwAhWG1KYKaFGz2tImZIQx/iS+uHC55QnRKBpY9K614SevsUMmlXKLYx7cAPltuOK bcTAJTjpGNIspDQ17KB0ypeyRKm3kG9DYsDMasE8yNZV2vKQ3HcQwyWb0dY0Rb1g8hbB DjYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s/HSN6NTlWcKiPUHnnkFhAfdVrl1OanLgb9w0SrnUrc=; b=XFKBkQC+B+XVzSgCZRmtE248ogZwwsWmCLbYLNI3+i1nH+hhd3CiErY5ltXX0BCPic wSBnsPsEpgZxLng8CuFhp+jjwoWlJlnO9yhjyGdgyRbAHysCUK17rFU5BAbZ0Z4HYpb/ im37Eq6lzaKoAb1k9IxfimOxYLuEsKMaNiWZ2B7F5LNDT5juhsaj8URxekYbQKr2y6+e MDeVwnWB439hrwB1ChZems+xMzMgV4fP4N1aP9V5P3NgSXLTaNjYD0tp+BAFWqzjNzHk IguIvljnI8TWSuNHXn6Asym7cn6FciYXwXRD1dtkfatP6v7GOu8DBTwsSIJqp7ZkuN2L omOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530qZrU9hVBP0f1U3AyCHP8vkLHm9g+mOciIqGNRRrE1QBqr0qhy 8d/fddHmB3IQhNBdgQ3Q9XgTFluL2pSMjg6mlPgGDIT3 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzYlteDaSzB6gdREJH7iI1VxyjZBnMoiLEM3JPK4jyuiA8K8KUdYYKYWlH7NlFxWGeEjvwC1VrM874QbBAjm6o= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:10c:: with SMTP id t12mr3183041ilm.187.1592316394880; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:06:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:06:23 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVP75dYjz43d3 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=uH5nsaCA; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.04 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.044]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.00)[-0.001]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:06:36 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:04 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:01 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:54 AM Chris Knipe wrote: >> >>> >>> Why can't your MUA be intelligent enough to wrap emails with > 74 >>> characters on a line? >>> >> >> Because programs that try to be "smart" about things are often "too smart >> for their own good". For example what is to stop it from wrapping >> something that for various reasons *HAS* to be longer than 74 chars (like >> code) when such wrapping destroys the ability to cut and paste from the MUA >> into another file for testing? >> >> Here goes a good example: >> >> > Simple - don't email it. If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is > there for a reason)... > > There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) > If you don't like email then you should not be using FreeBSD because for better or worse the community has standardized on email as the primary tech support venue and thus absolutely needs to have something that can be used to give tech support (including 100% accurate cut and pasting). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:17:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649DF33B5FE for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:17:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivares14031@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com (mail-wr1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVdW0BzSz44Nq for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:17:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivares14031@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id l11so20975879wru.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:17:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6uPx7EHjQZUR/R+xQ86xjlW9AM39TyrO+3UDzRG6GYo=; b=Nli7T7Epg5OJBUCXDk7+tkzmh9LkRDtGY2TDe+QiZhpzHsWzHY5IkKVi+Wy0gG5GoG Ipktp8DFGtoJgkojSiSv6v/09a1UOsMjz1Z8KSqjl5jqzES7b980uWnYgGZYJnmgLngi lubDLLPOaQNk7/AFVWjNPEFFKLaH7o7PR1Xc+0QO98Uu78TVS6j+EedESZF0lmsBuc6Q j9aSIcbdvjTDSerQ/tFd1YJAftjNpisen9e/qn5r5yE2riEou5S+Wfyh+tDqwLedZTyc eNCZ73xO8uqPM5Nv1JnR8y1F2avdGNi32mQCIJ3JbQgid5aTP0rIq8WSW1vihUNwqU5e chbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6uPx7EHjQZUR/R+xQ86xjlW9AM39TyrO+3UDzRG6GYo=; b=DoOHjT/5kzRUiExRRN/XChHG/k2QvjH6VErDbVbbajs5NGziN4zvPwsrV+c/bbDK+l m6XG7WgDYPoXvXL8Ch8kmu87GvIew15fg0xv4a6JfA0AT0Jjv0yudiesRwx5mjkr5DR4 4BlkD6ai48dndqj0HEVhTvkY/kaxbOXLNcYpps7dYw6fgiO6slHJ0yekqQbXDbRCTNAf viRj6sITSoEOGwZ0AzIMDxGC63EfTLbUh0cHc9sz3B1QQ0maZz2Sp2MJeIS+P0zpvvjp eRIuWdMyBY/yfAzoix/MwvtPUmK5Gtz2fqLyH+gkvjxynFmR+jWOuuswjbNZwYV9hLcc 48pQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532+VOCMgVLm49QtZ6rRjkb+a2H0ZVe/kNTlArIqAB8NaXHjclbJ DKKYiLQj4x+NF141ZujXUOQvh2awMgVxJhGnzuk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyf/XBLG2jVq5e4QwJmv8onkRXEWID0YyW12BNwR1lZ4VXFhzDqK5GDMxpA58255/2ENaEHJqoMYFNPu+RGM8c= X-Received: by 2002:adf:fdcc:: with SMTP id i12mr3497896wrs.313.1592317037224; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:17:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a7b:c093:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:17:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Antonio Olivares Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:17:16 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size To: Polytropon Cc: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVdW0BzSz44Nq X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Nli7T7Ep; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of olivares14031@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::42b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=olivares14031@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.032]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.002]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::42b:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.07)[-0.067]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:17:20 -0000 On Tuesday, June 16, 2020, Polytropon wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400, Jerry wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: >> >Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the >> >FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record >> >this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium >> >(here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). >> >> Are you referring to: >> >> 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso >> or >> 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso > > As mentioned at the end of the message (discussing image file size), > the file I used was FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso, because the > system it is intended for is not 64 bit capable, so i386 is what I > will have to use. > > I think the problem here is that 728 MB exceeds the standard that > says 650 MB and allows 700 MB and, by use of nonstandard tools, > does not guarantee for anything if you successfully burn 728 MB. > "Is possible" doesn't imply "will work as expected". :-) > > > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > _______________________________________________ I have used cd media < 700 MB iso from mfsbsd https://mfsbsd.vx.sk/ But they have for amd64, but I believe one can create an i386 variant and install FreeBSD from it. Best Regards, Antonio From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:22:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A3433BD1A for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb30.google.com (mail-yb1-xb30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVl03KPjz456G for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb30.google.com with SMTP id j202so10892303ybg.6 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:22:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZikDdI/BlaCKOSqzB04RaqCsSRg+zmbobb7PEjKrnqU=; b=kveWZCBuEVnAQIzlBorEJb3dQA5waZ4Ws9bje5y1mYXe1zgifTxUbpOyW+pPQNfEn0 8iviEpXy9p/yfjfm6F4+YDa/5+t3U99eW2LyHXhCN00biov3La2TC67z4lYQ+vu7zdJj AI7HiMyeb6fCc/FVXx4qvtXtBpq6jqo56Ehfe5Efad9YbO1pbs+2NVxI9DnxP647Pdi4 hcnvgdq2NFnyASo6DR1fum+qL286DO7CpUsxMT4a5p6MJsTWrFLaEapuvNn+WEe7kDOZ Gctjt2Rxry8qXMpHVTVAT5f0GsuYl4/egJfEosCZUry4ti+1mK/Q2jnIz0QOfrmWo5h/ pK5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZikDdI/BlaCKOSqzB04RaqCsSRg+zmbobb7PEjKrnqU=; b=WDM9RPANUQaeZKzDVW655BCGndg9878JU6XkIM6TGyraSGzCtjkxWE+gHxGsmxzZiR NcVACDEgE5ElK+I5EdWJj2N+Z6yTjGxypowxoEpuP/2EzHjqH6adof7du044K01r8dSj o7kePg4baFvzQDg274YZ1SGgg4J7eiXWwTt92viJ0OPFucuucLwrPbvCXjeJtVO8IVUV DeMsQG0c1u7RYadd6diCJOOZf6BmvFjqnYxTjhFs+WHoMg3aJ5yJEEP31VIrv13ohmyu OlslfwcX3q2nSQh/zdmN2cv2a1sHoeoGj8bg2B9VVyLmAeSm1X/RFJ9iJ5LX5Lf/p6BN rVuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533gyhgOPT8VACjDqMrTHgEUO+GynY2ozTMXrsYGm4IWosS2wW4Q MidKnIqE/uLVzNd2djIdNXspDqVjLx5zeg/5zwaEFQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxHLta46gWfIRYhiHOOagxL0PGSvbxsTjROvVVp2H2beBKhvGMAStbvpnJcdhvxK9rlFZg1pu/qUnYGyTJaxY8= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d755:: with SMTP id o82mr4203236ybg.166.1592317323208; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:22:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:21:52 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVl03KPjz456G X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=kveWZCBu; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.67 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.032]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.986]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.047]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:05 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:06 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > Simple - don't email it. If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is >> there for a reason)... >> >> There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) >> > > If you don't like email then you should not be using FreeBSD because for > better or worse the community has standardized on email as the primary tech > support venue and thus absolutely needs to have something that can be used > to give tech support (including 100% accurate cut and pasting). > And again - there's absolutely -nothing- wrong with that at all, I never said that there was... Millions of companies provide support to millions of users every day using email... That being said, I get a 80 character plain text email from a company as "support," I deem that as unprofessional, and the email will more than likely just be deleted. We live in modern times, unfortunately. Presentation matters, whether you like it or not. Cut & paste from the attachment, then you won't have any formatting issues from any MUAs, but I guess it's too much effort to open the attachment. There's plenty of solutions (UUEncode/BASE64, as you so nicely put it, has also been trialed and tested over many, many years, just FYI - it also has the benefit of < 80 characters wide), 80x25 is not one of them, and whether you like it or not, you will -never- get the world to adhere to a 80 (or 74 or whatever) character wide email. The world has moved on, deal with it. The fact is, you should be committing your code to a repository, and checking said code out of said repository when you need it. In an open source environment, said code is also publicly viewable using any half decent web browser (I guess GITHUB is also doing it wrong?) No, code should not be shared via email - and if you do then so be it - your choice, not a requirement. You don't need to email the code, all you can do is email a URL to your commit / diff... Again, too much effort to open a URL right? I forgot that in the old days without GUIs, we couldn't even double click. I guess you still can't today. Again, it's the minority that is sharing code via email... In fact, I would say very, very, very little people do it. Oh - and I love email.... Never said I didn't. -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:27:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9EE933BC67 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:27:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVry1xWrz45M9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:27:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id h3so18973757ilh.13 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:27:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:27:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:27:01 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVry1xWrz45M9 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Cl+QHUh3; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.15 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.052]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.10)[-0.100]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:27:15 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:02 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:56 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > >> More like it has been fire tested to hell and back and passes with flying >> colors where newer stuff can't always make that claim. >> > > I bet they said the same about SSL1.0 / SSL2.0, or WPA, or well, take your > pick... :-) > > Even medical technologies, envolve at a rapid, rapid pace... The MAX had > nothing to do with 80x25 text, neither does a heart monitor. > It doesn't evolve as fast you *THINK* it does for example our system supports over 200 different doctor offices/practices and about 10% still use Windows XP at 1024x768 and *REFUSE* to move to anything newer even after being told that using anything older than Windows 8 is an automatic HIPAA violation (DHS OCR [the office that oversees HIPAA enforcement] has said anything that lacks active vendor support is an automatic violation). About another 20% use Windows 7 and also refuse to upgrade. The console for the monitors (rarely used directly by anyone except for us the programmers) is 24x80 via a USB connector. So yes such screen sizes are an issue for us. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:32:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4076133BBDB for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:32:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVyb1rjWz45Sl for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:32:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id m81so22104915ioa.1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:32:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9HcjETB4m1XbThzV0uBqa0PZ+SPzXBk3HuAaPnTDhc4=; b=k1xRTqAGi+PicapQYvTS7I1mpC7IvAQcFjJmA7ZFIey8rFAEUtEXfc17CPupXZWuBn 277/Kb1Qc9f4fWY3GVB05WQvOggI4cLywl4vXsyrRaqTa/mO3sNFXwmRj3NXJVIOrzXO o+8UOtD3o+M71BRLMsLFzHu0wBwWBpBcZjji5VrNER97xE9ZoCx2uxi5umiuBByCtbCR CqXbzIScFwBxHnStYVoxDikmjQh68y/9YKefZJzUEPiLk+TE8dwotHqSDkiqBhxTPB3V TVn3g64Ou5MjJi4KQNagsTQ8vUkbRyWAUlY/Qdj8GeVS2LtZLvsfsta5gOYZoUadPuH3 dvQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9HcjETB4m1XbThzV0uBqa0PZ+SPzXBk3HuAaPnTDhc4=; b=biJtqtXJV7t1E4J455HBDmirvLP2lJdV59OVo/VOL96/5bjMJI89Ozlz3bMRR/BWl8 Cber90yWO04mnLC/yGNNgvzfoC0SaZv6XwFDyns4ra43eHvRHlrli+U4BCZhIKGnltzc oKyrkoUbqRbKR19OdQb3qKmyZ3lJ32i8DAtH4ID7VL67uyNzz06CMAWcFrZbkFYO+2zz yyRJNOKf4wU+4Z6lJnoHenARcBS6kAwKCJL2h/VwQW8i+G/GZOWVmXFoXBAeoFT5D3pE L1dW9LzKA7uXO5sNY9W4PYSsAyaXmvCNSrDg8gN/d+6pQBc01D817VzwrKduEplq3KED qotQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530B8xNCzl+l1rAc6nEjNR0lkoHdwwk+8b5sMxkbDW/1qa0dPNaK 26wV7DlPCmgWDHNVuP6XoJMVMoNe7TslYqI0wWQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxlWhW2R2SEzjBw8DdG1uEkV45ERjzgLRACXjSy82qhZyDZ2jnP3/jrxRKslekyQ5UEnJiAGm6wfdsIxCzlCh4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1243:: with SMTP id o3mr2889105iou.89.1592317926070; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:32:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:31:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVyb1rjWz45Sl X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=k1xRTqAG; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.03 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.044]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.990]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.00)[0.005]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:32:08 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:22 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:06 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > >> Simple - don't email it. If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is >>> there for a reason)... >>> >>> There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) >>> >> >> If you don't like email then you should not be using FreeBSD because for >> better or worse the community has standardized on email as the primary tech >> support venue and thus absolutely needs to have something that can be used >> to give tech support (including 100% accurate cut and pasting). >> > > And again - there's absolutely -nothing- wrong with that at all, I never > said that there was... Millions of companies provide support to millions of > users every day using email... That being said, I get a 80 character plain > text email from a company as "support," I deem that as unprofessional, and > the email will more than likely just be deleted. We live in modern times, > unfortunately. Presentation matters, whether you like it or not. > > Cut & paste from the attachment, then you won't have any formatting issues > from any MUAs, but I guess it's too much effort to open the attachment. > There's plenty of solutions (UUEncode/BASE64, as you so nicely put it, has > also been trialed and tested over many, many years, just FYI - it also has > the benefit of < 80 characters wide), 80x25 is not one of them, and whether > you like it or not, you will -never- get the world to adhere to a 80 (or 74 > or whatever) character wide email. The world has moved on, deal with it. > Extra and unneeded steps for a properly behaving MUA and but from your point of view this is the very behavior that is *BAD*. > > The fact is, you should be committing your code to a repository, and > checking said code out of said repository when you need it. In an open > source environment, said code is also publicly viewable using any half > decent web browser (I guess GITHUB is also doing it wrong?) No, code > should not be shared via email - and if you do then so be it - your choice, > not a requirement. You don't need to email the code, all you can do is > email a URL to your commit / diff... Again, too much effort to open a URL > right? I forgot that in the old days without GUIs, we couldn't even double > click. I guess you still can't today. > You missed the point completely then. People don't share production/committed code via email they share snippets when asking for debugging help and those are the ones that need to be 100% accurate cut and pasted because some applications/languages care a great deal about whitespace (like python). > Again, it's the minority that is sharing code via email... In fact, I > would say very, very, very little people do it. > If that is what you think you sure have not been on this list (or any other FreeBSD mailing list) for any significant amount of time (people do it everyday here). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:32:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02B233C11D for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:32:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVz93mm3z45fW for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:32:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com with SMTP id a80so10936539ybg.1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:32:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:32:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:32:25 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVz93mm3z45fW X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=m4AS6xV9; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.45 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.041]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.21)[-0.205]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:32:38 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:27 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > It doesn't evolve as fast you *THINK* it does for example our system > supports over 200 different doctor offices/practices and about 10% still > use Windows XP at 1024x768 and *REFUSE* to move to anything newer even > after being told that using anything older than Windows 8 is an automatic > HIPAA violation (DHS OCR [the office that oversees HIPAA enforcement] has > said anything that lacks active vendor support is an automatic > violation). About another 20% use Windows 7 and also refuse to upgrade. > The console for the monitors (rarely used directly by anyone except for us > the programmers) is 24x80 via a USB connector. So yes such screen sizes > are an issue for us. > > Apples vs. Pears. Even XP, supports HTML email, even XP supports rendering emails wider than 80 characters. Some of my code is GUI, running on 7", or 14" monitors. Nothing forces my -code- to be 80 characters wide. Yes, the -rendering- is a different story, the -code- is not. -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:34:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C513C33C150 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:34:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from mailout.easydns.com (mailout.easydns.com [64.68.202.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mW0y70Hcz45m2 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:34:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056D8C6A7C for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:34:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailout.easydns.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (emo12-pco.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZJn8vNyCe-FL for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:34:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hedeland.org (81-228-157-209-no289.tbcn.telia.com [81.228.157.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BDE4CC0BA9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:34:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pluto.hedeland.org (pluto.hedeland.org [10.1.1.5]) by tellus.hedeland.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05GEY7mY093807 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:34:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> <9357b967-f022-fb7b-1c3c-c64ed8b5b149@hedeland.org> From: Per Hedeland Message-ID: <4c58eada-5134-8706-9665-722647542b14@hedeland.org> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:34:07 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mW0y70Hcz45m2 X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of per@hedeland.org has no SPF policy when checking 64.68.202.10) smtp.mailfrom=per@hedeland.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.64 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[81.228.157.209:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.17)[0.167]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.40)[0.397]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hedeland.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.27)[0.274]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16686, ipnet:64.68.200.0/22, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.68.202.10:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:34:11 -0000 On 2020-06-16 15:16, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 6/16/20 7:22 AM, Per Hedeland wrote: >> On 2020-06-16 13:37, Polytropon wrote: >>> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400, Jerry wrote: >>>> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: >>>>> Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the >>>>> FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record >>>>> this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium >>>>> (here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). >>>> >>>> Are you referring to: >>>> >>>> 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso >>>> or >>>> 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso >>> >>> As mentioned at the end of the message (discussing image file size), >>> the file I used was FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso, because the >>> system it is intended for is not 64 bit capable, so i386 is what I >>> will have to use. >>> >>> I think the problem here is that 728 MB exceeds the standard that >>> says 650 MB and allows 700 MB and, by use of nonstandard tools, >>> does not guarantee for anything if you successfully burn 728 MB. >>> "Is possible" doesn't imply "will work as expected". :-) >> >> Well, no help for you, but it might be worth noting that >> FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso is actually 867(!) MB, and that >> https://www.freebsd.org/releases/12.1R/announce.html says: >> >> disc1 >> >> This contains the base FreeBSD operating system. It also supports >> booting into a "livefs" based rescue mode. There are no pre-built >> packages. >> >> Additionally, this can be written to an USB memory stick (flash >> drive) for the amd64 architecture and used to do an install on >> machines capable of booting off USB drives. It also supports >> booting into a "livefs" based rescue mode. There are no pre-built >> packages. >> >> I.e. a) it is only the base system, no packages that can be removed >> (though there are sources and other stuff that *could* be) - and b) >> there is *no* claim that it can actually be burnt to a CD!!! > > Disagree. The name plainly says "CD", nobody should re-define plain English words. It's not really a matter of opinion. If you can find the letters "CD" (or "cd") anywhere in the above, including in the name of the installers, please point me to it. And of course you don't need to take my word for it - follow the link above and search for "CD"/"cd" anywhere in the page - it occurs only for the "bootonly" image, and in the text "FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE can also be purchased on CD-ROM or DVD from several vendors." > Even more: by continuity, this always was meant for burning CDs. Yes, this was also what I thought, so I was quite surprised by my findings above. Also that there was a "disc2" for the stuff that didn't fit on "disc1", as mentioned earlier in the thread - no sign of that on the above page, nor in the download directory. I actually went back to the 12.0R announcement, and all the earlier .0 ones until https://www.freebsd.org/releases/8.0R/announce.html, where I finally found the claim that "disc1" "contains the base FreeBSD operating system and the documentation packages for CDROM-sized media" (Still no mention of "disc2", but it (and "disc3") could be found on https://www.freebsd.org/releases/7.0R/announce.html) So, whether the change has been announced somewhere or not, it was clearly a very long time since the release announcement claimed that "disc1" could fit on a CD - I haven't checked whether some of those old-but-later-than-8.0 images actually *could* fit (I can't even find the images). --Per > The size of image exceeding standard restrictions is > really annoying, and ideally should not be tolerated as "released" by self respected organization. > > This is just my opinion. I as person attempt to apply this to what I do. > > Valeri > >> >> *Perhaps* you could mount the image via md(4), remove/truncate some of >> the files in /usr/freebsd-dist, and burn a CD from the result. >> >> --Per >> >> PS From FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-memstick.img: >> >> $ ls -s /mnt/usr/freebsd-dist >> total 548264 >> 4 MANIFEST 76640 kernel-dbg.txz 38592 ports.txz >> 157568 base.txz 40800 kernel.txz 162400 src.txz >> 4 doc.txz 60064 lib32.txz 12192 tests.txz From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:47:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008ED33C2F1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:47:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mWJp75ZBz46GF for ; 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RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:47:56 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:04:21 +0200, Chris Knipe wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:01 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:54 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > >> > >> Why can't your MUA be intelligent enough to wrap emails with > 74 > >> characters on a line? > >> > > > > Because programs that try to be "smart" about things are often "too smart > > for their own good". For example what is to stop it from wrapping > > something that for various reasons *HAS* to be longer than 74 chars (like > > code) when such wrapping destroys the ability to cut and paste from the MUA > > into another file for testing? > > > > Here goes a good example: > > > > > Simple - don't email it. Why not? > If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is > there for a reason)... > > There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) Those are external resources that can vanish for some reason. The goal of the mailing list is that messages can be processed off-line, and they are perfectly allowed (!) to contain things like source code, ASCII tables, even simple networking diagrams or even formulas. Incornporating "external technology" for something the medium can do in its own doesn't sound very convenient (even though it sounds "modern", so it could probably appeal to certain users just due to this fact). Some mailing lists, such as this one, do not use binary attachments. Using text attachments for code is probably possible. However, this is a _discussion_ mailing list, not primarily intended for sharing code. That doesn't stop users from presenting code in the context of questions (and when I say code, I also mean scripts, logs, sometimes ASCII diagrams, or configuration files). In an earlier message I presented an example for a MUA/MTA construct that was "too smart" - in fact: stupid, which therefore collapsed everything into one single line, and it doesn't matter if another MUA displays that single line as one line, requiring you to scroll, or rensers it as a paragraph (ragged right or justified). The result was an unusable message. I also presented the workaround the users became friends with. :-) Visual presentation of data is a different "layer" than the data itself. And there is no 1:1 relation. Things like font size and displaying should not be a matter of the mail message itself, except... yes, it's not that easy! As a programmer, you will surely agree that there is: a) text that should be presented as it was written, b) text that the MUA is free to (and should) arrange, and c) text where it simply doesn't matter what the MUA does. Making this choice isn't always easy. Multipart-MIME can be helpful. Even though a mailing list is, by no means, a "one size fits all" solution, so there is a certain consensus about what is useful and what is rather not. This consensus changes over time, and within this consensus, there are many ways a user can express his questions, answers, suggestions and thoughts in a mailing list message. Physical things like display size can have significant influence, as well as the kind of device in use, and the way that device is configured. Screens have lots of parameters: { physical size in cm, physical size in px, giving resolution / density } x { software graphics resolution, font face, font size, magnification applied }. It's just not easy to predict - from _your_ point of view -, how a message will be displayed to someone else. You can hope their setting matches what works for you, but you cannot expect that. Coming from a multi-OS background, interoperability, compatibility and "must work everywhere" is something that I consider important, while being cautious that it doesn't become a "race to the bottom" where only the most basic things work everywhere, while things break as soon as you add something simple or obvious. Mailing lists are such a versatile medium: They can be used with plenty of MUAs, processed and used (!) in many different ways, that's what makes them so valuable for technical people, but also for novices who have started understanding _what_ they're using. Oh, and don't get me wrong: Mail is no replacement for a source control system, but we're not talking about source control, we're talking about mailing list etiquette, in a polite, humble, often technical and sometimes funny way. :-) _____________________________________ < I ate your 80 column punched cards! > ------------------------------------- \ . _ . \ |\_|/__/| / / \/ \ \ /__|O||O|__ \ |/_ \_/\_/ _\ | | | (____) | || \/\___/\__/ // (_/ || | || | ||\ \ //_/ \______// __ || __|| (____(____) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:01:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4D3C33CCA6 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:01:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb42.google.com (mail-yb1-xb42.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mWd22X1Yz476s for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:01:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb42.google.com with SMTP id s1so10960293ybo.7 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:01:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yK3E0ZiIQxqPmOJAKfD8oLJ4XMARbr/n09Lzamh0zdc=; b=xrzZa/hhFGLLOLB5Dp0VnrrDJsIE5jYgPpgTkN2Ro70/oBlxf5ZSt290VSnvDBkeFC E8XnlGKYakll7dconCtcUu7LVky0zqNlu27mhncI23anccj64EZfw1P4IDh7Co/oDlD3 kF0v2ddjP+Qmfq+YBPr/Z3nxW2dfm9/gl9mhAiEWua4WegJ7Rk9zODgfT+ck4m82D8e/ DAUPvs5U+C1WBAH1yHlaZinUZoylSZP2XWQs+DX417dJzz0g9ycbkl1EdHih321LSDtQ 94B6IAFGGFficj+oZXH/KwkmwDo8KPam8VaVVSrElCJTNXzSVejjYC3ax/xaO0TgQoul eCGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yK3E0ZiIQxqPmOJAKfD8oLJ4XMARbr/n09Lzamh0zdc=; b=BLcClGEBYpP9XtlVy+uw/d6slLCjlZGjZRDeV5bma0PVqgu9TLzhzbPeDm0wsk4/n5 COOS8qm3PuObM+4J0dYA9g5MzW4nx/9hlb7Ca/vBPcQ9m2D4G5z9lm7H2kewbIdHGuD5 obPiB4q+2hzeLpcNhEjOcaNY7mNAyil45VeViDdaSI3DwSrsXu+TEA0se0tH1UE/q7bJ pixdlRA1bNgqTqxHLGzuHa1wYBRX49cc1lKGKqVnFsXOcPAL/WHb+11J+qHPgdpZj9CV YSjg5lMuwcfuXTM4bvptym1p3ItTtArIvn56oZtUU3rtlg9rDkJcZoQdnObx2wam2Ha3 O+Dg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532sTtbVbguj9aHkec9+DhHw+A6/mJqxwZH5ZYPaYbUTKKFbzKNj p2WCxFhdU+PTzd4eAvBq0fOgDsmoRBqGYSJActzcPyy6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw19y0bvJxC89e7vanbydvoCDGQSxKhJcrL7o3T0ISHcHEakN0SjbHw6bFdEVYqKTzyC5h5aZG735xklStxpfs= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bcc2:: with SMTP id l2mr4469174ybm.154.1592319716554; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:01:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616164751.dbc4888a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616164751.dbc4888a.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:01:45 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Polytropon Cc: Aryeh Friedman , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mWd22X1Yz476s X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=xrzZa/hh; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.66 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.965]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.958]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b42:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.038]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,sohara.org,freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:01:59 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:47 PM Polytropon wrote: > > Simple - don't email it. > > Why not? > > Because of this exact reason why this thread is floating about. MUA's don't understand it. You're not going to change the MUA, you're not going to change user behaviour. The only thing you CAN change, is how the code / snippets are handled. If you insist on doing so via email, that is your choice, it is not a requirement. There are better ways to do it, such as for example, online. > > > If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is > > there for a reason)... > > > > There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) > > Those are external resources that can vanish for some reason. > And if I use IMAP, and my IMAP server is unreachable? Then I also don't have access to my email and therefore it has also 'vanished'. I see no difference to having code in an online repository, vs. in an email client. The difference is that an online code repository has been specifically designed to hold, and format code correctly, a MUA, has not. That is not what a MUA's intended purpose is. > The goal of the mailing list is that messages can be processed > off-line, and they are perfectly allowed (!) to contain things > like source code, ASCII tables, even simple networking diagrams > or even formulas. Incornporating "external technology" for > something the medium can do in its own doesn't sound very > convenient (even though it sounds "modern", so it could probably > appeal to certain users just due to this fact). Some mailing > lists, such as this one, do not use binary attachments. > Using text attachments for code is probably possible. > However, this is a _discussion_ mailing list, not primarily > intended for sharing code. That doesn't stop users from > presenting code in the context of questions (and when I say > code, I also mean scripts, logs, sometimes ASCII diagrams, > or configuration files). > > I have to be 'online' to get messages from the mailing list, I can be 'online' to view code in a repository. If I solely rely on gmail, and I'm offline? I can't view my emails, I can't view said code (formatted correctly or not). We are in a modern society where connectivity is paramount (again, I am talking about the majority, not the minority stuck in the basement using 360K floppy drives). The majority of us have connectivity 24x7x365 (or some reasonable alternative to that). What if my POP3 email is at home, and I am traveling? How will I see said code? What if I have access to some 'random' WiFi hotspot, but can't access the mailing list archives? I hear what you are saying - however email is not, and never was intended to be used for archival purposes. Source Code repositories such as GIT were designed specifically for this purpose. I can argue just as much as you can. You maintain you will have 24x7x365 access to your email whilst you may not have 24x7x365 access to a resource on the Internet. This unfortunately, goes both ways. I can very much have access to online resources, but not to my email. Visual presentation of data is a different "layer" than > the data itself. And there is no 1:1 relation. Things like > font size and displaying should not be a matter of the > mail message itself, except... yes, it's not that easy! > > As a programmer, you will surely agree that there is: > > a) text that should be presented as it was written, > > b) text that the MUA is free to (and should) arrange, and > > c) text where it simply doesn't matter what the MUA does. > > Making this choice isn't always easy. Multipart-MIME can be > helpful. Even though a mailing list is, by no means, a "one size > fits all" solution, so there is a certain consensus about what > is useful and what is rather not. This consensus changes over > time, and within this consensus, there are many ways a user can > express his questions, answers, suggestions and thoughts in a > mailing list message. > > I agree with you. The MUA should NOT modify the message, and I despise this as much as you do. Fact remains, you're not going to change every single MUA in the world, and you are most certainly not going to get everyone to use the same MUA either. Work WITH the MUA, and not AGAINST the MUA. Your code belongs online, not in some arbitrary MUA that formats said text as it 'believes' is best. -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:04:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D9BF33CE91 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:04:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com (mail-il1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mWhM387Mz4781 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:04:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id e11so19148661ilr.4 for ; 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Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:04:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:04:38 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mWhM387Mz4781 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=oM82ic56; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::134 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.14 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.051]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::134:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.09)[-1.090]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:04:52 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:32 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:27 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > >> It doesn't evolve as fast you *THINK* it does for example our system >> supports over 200 different doctor offices/practices and about 10% still >> use Windows XP at 1024x768 and *REFUSE* to move to anything newer even >> after being told that using anything older than Windows 8 is an automatic >> HIPAA violation (DHS OCR [the office that oversees HIPAA enforcement] has >> said anything that lacks active vendor support is an automatic >> violation). About another 20% use Windows 7 and also refuse to upgrade. >> The console for the monitors (rarely used directly by anyone except for us >> the programmers) is 24x80 via a USB connector. So yes such screen sizes >> are an issue for us. >> >> > > Apples vs. Pears. Even XP, supports HTML email, even XP supports > rendering emails wider than 80 characters. > > Some of my code is GUI, running on 7", or 14" monitors. Nothing forces my > -code- to be 80 characters wide. Yes, the -rendering- is a different > story, the -code- is not. > Unless some program was hard coded for it then the code is different. In many legacy applications such hard codings were made to maximize performance and/or some other reason. It is these legacy applications that in many cases make it so the doctor's office refuses to upgrade (usually some ancient accounting or lab management program that would cost an arm and a leg to replace/if replaceable at all [some medical devices are not made any more but are still in use in many doctors offices]). Public hospitals are even worse off in terms of funding and unless serious help from the government is forthcoming are almost certain to be unable to upgrade to something that doesn't require an ancient TTY 33A, DEC VT100 or something like that to be connected (they are physically incapable of interfacing to anything else). A good case in point is the "new improved" ventilators that Trump sent to Elmhurst Hospital (here in Queens) where incompatible with the pre-HL7 EMR they had and that's why the governor had to ask for more (and agent orange haid [Trump] refused because he has the same "newer is better" attitude you have... oh and he is also an all around idiot). TL;dr -- You often have very little if any choice IRL about what tech is actually in place and 24x80 is a universal lowest common denominator and thus it should be kept. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:07:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A5133D024 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:07:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb30.google.com (mail-yb1-xb30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mWlc43fhz47Hm for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:07:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb30.google.com with SMTP id j202so10967554ybg.6 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:07:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+5YdLMNItO+PUSXuIRNacblmdXi/pKoq5Yhh673pZAk=; b=bfk+OiybvLPDt22ydtc9Q8E11VbJgtI/9hibPPUr9kwdM2gb32+XGloHx5AczyUk1X 06t2apZZDoDjavaGSxgRjCa8qlYV0nVDshxfpWCGQh5z4MVIvD7UHlEVUNKDKik1xoFy qHcHYXcSUFsn5YXIgBO/EdJMmafJaf92EB0THRm/sEWfaZEQqjf8A3Nj3f0p/VgSTUN2 0jaMewzbVU/vp/gfoDsrwmPif0bIbUqTccF+kcfFaJ9+Hf4G+mqNd1zGwr3efuPv+D4F 17bz5ELRkkOKG5YGhwgWWa2Q1I2OskHM9OkuRlTXDMOuzUc71xjGzsU66xwg1qw7TtHM WaHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+5YdLMNItO+PUSXuIRNacblmdXi/pKoq5Yhh673pZAk=; b=KauSEQ+Dx85FK5kWAjCymAagi/B16LYAUbxfwkCRwWJb3WZjk1L/VdvUtaxik98Qqw xNJMbLJxudsXYKRsWdgOIHRe/S98kSGkCd9H0SKFVl5nJ3+W8UkRVlON6jueAl9BXJk5 RRfJooDFQfuBSM9XpQdhZbawxfn51ew2lIdwH0xpO99jn2F0RV/Rp3LKz1xzHt8dur3T ij+RP3QiQ6tFj6JlkeOAIQBe6m3mBHJz+DIjCIzQnUKOq7ZIuFz8TpGfqN6LE/kotBiY SfvfEX5CgNTLfg2GQUZuhfzwMfZRlEpoJ/hHPM2R340C1xexZ6Usl27KjeST189jLvIm AItA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531wu9bzBB4u1HtbJW9y4dDE3F7hPgrIduI4KjpK6XHuKeavbfib l+tVPa2lBZYgyb94qh0LhpZ2DlwFaWLZmKcFM7xo6w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxFnpDPGV5v9URPhOQ99gl3Q69gxFWln/4Sxd4q4BifUWy0as7SH+yGNzvHCGnjGTGwonIu+fd53gBJB2XYbXI= X-Received: by 2002:a25:400e:: with SMTP id n14mr4424677yba.424.1592320059794; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:07:28 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mWlc43fhz47Hm X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=bfk+Oiyb; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.99 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.043]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.019]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.72)[-0.724]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:07:41 -0000 > > > Unless some program was hard coded for it then the code is different. In > many legacy applications such hard codings were made to maximize > performance and/or some other reason. It is these legacy applications > that in many cases make it so the doctor's office refuses to upgrade > (usually some ancient accounting or lab management program that would cost > an arm and a leg to replace/if replaceable at all [some medical devices are > not made any more but are still in use in many doctors offices]). Public > hospitals are even worse off in terms of funding and unless serious help > from the government is forthcoming are almost certain to be unable to > upgrade to something that doesn't require an ancient TTY 33A, DEC VT100 or > something like that to be connected (they are physically incapable of > interfacing to anything else). A good case in point is the "new improved" > ventilators that Trump sent to Elmhurst Hospital (here in Queens) where > incompatible with the pre-HL7 EMR they had and that's why the governor had > to ask for more (and agent orange haid [Trump] refused because he has the > same "newer is better" attitude you have... oh and he is also an all around > idiot). > > TL;dr -- You often have very little if any choice IRL about what tech is > actually in place and 24x80 is a universal lowest common denominator and > thus it should be kept. > > Again - what does this have to do with email and 80 characters? You don't read your email on a heart monitor, do you? -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:09:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0914733CEFF for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:09:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mWnL56qdz47nQ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:09:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MrhHm-1j8Z0h1oay-00neeh; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:09:07 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:09:06 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Chris Knipe Cc: Aryeh Friedman , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Polytropon , FreeBSD - Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:d6arsj3yytWyaK3mxmHyPeIYUlpoTCE+scv3QyxscSPrwCDSB+N ppBBcM8gdGWweEWmjVz/X9Yr0omnPg8GWL2MOFDIg2kXYVlZLSuNYReLwYx0e6Z7/qvtTJM FUai9Qo6dD2JD8gn9+cjk0TW2syus5CpMeE4I2eZqehtM+Ny6p8lvHddlqaY99W84KRkILg zzEmDOHIDN/pYqKtCK0Ew== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:wI7Z2y/oVjM=:chV5H5u+nR/tNGk74JOuY0 miytktrXFe6RQNqbAjLFMaPE80lOBoXUd086ju2KLR5TkZTRjenzBJt3HEHQ9RT7ymRNv4DY4 Rf67siwYNDOz/5/jNGC4FDIWpRAkuUXnRER1/pR6+YcWGCZkNhhWYVio/135Zz4hSm5CYI0v5 TSSlPtlcm3/5aidZ58NdjZBc5mgDBM4h0hOnQLlPFICl2YB5OG7KzrsmRZYesnk5R2lceGF4e QrnFqrcuUA0n5kkA6heUSMKaqpshQiNCe0Y2ahxg19NYSM7nZ3M78NhabPz3LmTW0LRcnUfv/ Q5RYx3ZVsHIA3lsi82Rlu6Mzo5UQdwQFjLzSukG1huqoWtTCpk613ZOTlgF4lt+kkUQuSW4hn ILXsMTNL6r6w6F4G9U7AQcRxCAWP7RHfP1+Zou1ZxqchqgqufRrB+Sz8ph+1WGaR8pJ0tBwku 0M2sXU2kWANoUbBKxxn15oopM/pMtsoQwP7sgSV76g7oVgOppoUM+naGjJ7wu1mQ4IUdgFz2x IdC2N2hBafYEvJHdP7Xoj7x6MHlrhBevYE3giYgaZ35zFWQNctTkBJEdneQcGHr3vqn8T8asi kgIwGl3IA0oGazfvF1GEk9kk11Wu8nlfLaCDp6OJjod9gPXBloHJLiaL2/LczwxigjkQp61Zt a2Ksex5YeHh+iREQtKsZOlYRmC0ptm97sgIaM2BzZVoGtHTn9iKjINxEfcc5y3IBuubDhkSA4 YbTOclZigwmxtwVOefcNwGqrOMTeYEUVUXzdOquhdOUfnaK82HAFMPj2gB+ks6kAopgTpBS4w awoOPq+OgtTNev3t015LCVREiQH31h9cG5EJVnAMKOttqbam26DxATpdPqjRLk3bcHoD0uY X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mWnL56qdz47nQ X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.24) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.26 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.62)[-0.621]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.14)[0.143]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.84)[0.842]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,sohara.org,edvax.de,freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:09:12 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:21:52 +0200, Chris Knipe wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:06 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > > Simple - don't email it. If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is > >> there for a reason)... > >> > >> There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) > >> > > > > If you don't like email then you should not be using FreeBSD because for > > better or worse the community has standardized on email as the primary tech > > support venue and thus absolutely needs to have something that can be used > > to give tech support (including 100% accurate cut and pasting). > > > > And again - there's absolutely -nothing- wrong with that at all, I never > said that there was... Millions of companies provide support to millions of > users every day using email... That being said, I get a 80 character plain > text email from a company as "support," I deem that as unprofessional, and > the email will more than likely just be deleted. We live in modern times, > unfortunately. Presentation matters, whether you like it or not. Interesting apoach. Do you value presentation more than content? In case of support, personally I would want something that helps me solving my problem, not something that looks good. Sadly, the "looks good" has lead to many technically inferior solutions becoming a de-facto standard, because the better solutions simply "don't look as good". > Cut & paste from the attachment, then you won't have any formatting issues > from any MUAs, but I guess it's too much effort to open the attachment. Certain MUAs display the attachmend right underneath the message, especially if it's things like images or text that can be easily embedded. Depending on the MUA in use, getting the content of the attachment requires one or more additional steps, but it should not be a problem. What _could_ be a problem is that the mailing list explicitely does not support attachments in general, or only allows a specific subset of formats (like plain text attachments). But as I mentioned in an earlier message, sometimes code is "inlined" in a message, or even in a paragraph, for example: Filesystem Size Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/gpt/sysroot 213G 196G 480M 100% / devfs 1,0K 1,0K 0B 100% /dev tmpfs 5,8G 4,0K 5,8G 0% /compat/linux/dev/shm procfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% /proc linprocfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% /compat/linux/proc And see that I didn't put any linebreaks here, so if a MUA now goes ahead and collapses it into one line, then rendering that line in a paragraph mode (ragged right or justified), depending on your settings (font size, font face, window size etc.), it became totally useless. > There's plenty of solutions (UUEncode/BASE64, as you so nicely put it, has > also been trialed and tested over many, many years, just FYI - it also has > the benefit of < 80 characters wide), 80x25 is not one of them, and whether > you like it or not, you will -never- get the world to adhere to a 80 (or 74 > or whatever) character wide email. The world has moved on, deal with it. The choice of how wide a line of text in a message is is not defined by the world; it's the choice of the writer. Sometimes, you may intendedly _want_ to write things in a specific, non- standard way, sometimes like this, or this, or even so, that - think about it! -, in the result, the text gets a specific formatting which carries a certain intention, defined by the writer. I admit that this was a stupid example, but still a valid one. :-) > The fact is, you should be committing your code to a repository, and > checking said code out of said repository when you need it. That is not a solution for a technical _discussion_, as I mentioned in an earlier message. Sometimes you just want to embed some code (in a broad sense) into your text, and to employ external resources for claiming that for (;;) ; is a better endless loop than while (1) ; is definitely overkill (that would be, with modern services, how many HTTP requests for essentialls 2 lines of code?). I could've added some comments that should not be line-broken... :-) > No, code > should not be shared via email - and if you do then so be it - your choice, > not a requirement. You don't need to email the code, all you can do is > email a URL to your commit / diff... As I said, things like external code storage and submission including version control have their place, but they are surely not the tool of choice for including code snipperts in the kind of discussions taking place on this mailing list. Again, see the word "code" as anything that should be presented as-is: logs, configuration files, diagrams, formulas. > Again, too much effort to open a URL > right? If you are offline, yes. Having a message full of external resources and not being able to access them reduces the value of said message to zero. Now you might say, but it also appears in the archives, which are "online by definition" - great, so if an external resource goes to 404 or the company responsible for hosting goes belly-up, or gets bought by a bigger fish just to discontinue their service, you have noting. But if you have a message that contains the code, you can still get its value, because it is simply "in there". > I forgot that in the old days without GUIs, we couldn't even double > click. I guess you still can't today. Please don't insult people. And: Yes, there are a few users who probably can't click, or use any GUI at all. They surely are a minority, but excluding them just by being in "snob mode" is not fair. Yes, I'm primarily talking about users with extremely limited eyesight, and blind users. > Again, it's the minority that is sharing code via email... In fact, I would > say very, very, very little people do it. You are free to check the mailing list archives, just to discover that this has been successfully done for decades. > Oh - and I love email.... Never said I didn't. Always use the right tool in the preferred way of a specific context to achieve the most value. There is no "one size fits all" egg-laying wool-milk-sow. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:18:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB64333D698 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:18:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mWzs04f4z48Ng for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:18:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id u13so2445819iol.10 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:18:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=66F7E6uww38cPuPKygi30aeLTsCi5xw89xkuCOfHEFE=; b=DL80qlQQT6nPyVduBleAPW7450RcldS3nskHO7n3RO9D5aznEGYoX0Pv9GCTUSY/pD W8UzK9wvvQdnefPlunu4gLufEq+339S/uUHSuh+3/CTQv85u6nt6fDf5+kZIQlwcLcPX dOvfMzABjmy1prwHXp3ces0vxhj8pDUEwDeJVShnsbfHWUSxsbs8WjR7IuwLSrRLTASC 05+EmlIEh2uaCwsFPXbP9cdAvoVkqCJYOMFlg7TjMpmKX5sYWWRACDJ6oTDbd46I+0Y3 IYWtmAw2owMSePJXuXdPBMF8hn4nat1xSpvqSJm7r4jfo8FVfBmL1zoVPVzC0475xa/E 3uxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=66F7E6uww38cPuPKygi30aeLTsCi5xw89xkuCOfHEFE=; b=fEDZ+77ZV++iNNXOaLqTDh2cu2WuEhlc0ZnpV2yqhmzdZpvz72n6OueH6Gp78++/9r jKvejZrpsJGpqGIO/iEc5ePX+WJanHMPgWItPV+0EtVWHgL3GbQNT635mwdrtuabkuY+ e2aBIUFbDGg+f2cekh0KnFZoaNZBvWK6tAup7/zar5VXuozhCVLXp+jzv1xv76FgwJDq RKQRmH49NDr3BxHTqG3qU/jN+2qlOBEAFhi+DFfKyQGr1sk+6suZLKY8jNcRCX5Bzi48 kzctVPuaUFTmaNUVbmcVinbraqt4XrFKNxoBhxuUOruB7EEyYc6mBwH5uP+W8dSCmlNW tUFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533cJoqzDrR/1ShZattUfYdgVk+IZy4hbnl/ePtj//NjNW4mgdPm aKyjV0dhe5yT0NdinN5CbVj/K3Tmgt/l4c70eCY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+7bcDlTC8Jdx4u7IUFemCjmQH9j4Ma53gRL/y6GopFJy2cXbWk/DSr6zpDvvK8a2/rBtfo3+6L/GlvzVxBBA= X-Received: by 2002:a02:95a6:: with SMTP id b35mr26180131jai.40.1592320695951; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:18:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:18:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mWzs04f4z48Ng X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=DL80qlQQ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.15 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.051]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.10)[-1.103]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:18:18 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:07 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > >> Unless some program was hard coded for it then the code is different. >> In many legacy applications such hard codings were made to maximize >> performance and/or some other reason. It is these legacy applications >> that in many cases make it so the doctor's office refuses to upgrade >> (usually some ancient accounting or lab management program that would cost >> an arm and a leg to replace/if replaceable at all [some medical devices are >> not made any more but are still in use in many doctors offices]). Public >> hospitals are even worse off in terms of funding and unless serious help >> from the government is forthcoming are almost certain to be unable to >> upgrade to something that doesn't require an ancient TTY 33A, DEC VT100 or >> something like that to be connected (they are physically incapable of >> interfacing to anything else). A good case in point is the "new improved" >> ventilators that Trump sent to Elmhurst Hospital (here in Queens) where >> incompatible with the pre-HL7 EMR they had and that's why the governor had >> to ask for more (and agent orange haid [Trump] refused because he has the >> same "newer is better" attitude you have... oh and he is also an all around >> idiot). >> >> TL;dr -- You often have very little if any choice IRL about what tech is >> actually in place and 24x80 is a universal lowest common denominator and >> thus it should be kept. >> >> > Again - what does this have to do with email and 80 characters? You don't > read your email on a heart monitor, do you? > Since you've likely never needed to connect one you wouldn't know but they can send email and text messages. Text messages (SMS) are limited to 140 characters thus if you need to send a longer message you need to fragment. Also status reports are sent to the clients employees and sometimes to patients and most of them use smart phones and thus have *LESS* than 80 character wide screens and it still has to be readable for them. Since 80 is a good compromise between all these demands it is a good requirement for any email the system sends (we even have an automated test to make sure no message has a line longer than 80 chars for this reason). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:18:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5B233D796 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:18:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mX0b200bz48BD for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:18:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com with SMTP id 187so11008474ybq.2 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:18:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=shffIGvAjW1H3fiOorDw1dRcoLkg70f6kykCzzgrh5E=; b=rHCZkcjm92O6cVAGUiq+a5Jk1zd3OQ8ssRFloQ2GptSNXxkwYt21hzkh9Ivji2BRIK isKlqDRWe9Nhwg8RetO9MUbDXsBblbQAATHk4mTPbx7w4k9zLfir4jyV2MREH2MMGDj8 C/P2lrLaQdy2L2JWYYBCrrEl7WPfPT93wBw96+eaO/OHj8fFru7lL0JRR5wWFVdbLfxs zH/ksCpmMTgmIxc3DfvDlCqAv97eywkqcSJoR+lj4uI7H9/95lDkV0VzNkT+Ce8kXed/ 5E+2b2qoMzoB+E3PwDw/w77rq/5jvStQpN6uGKWZzfbgOhdFFvLcn3vqhmJznfvi2f4K RAog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=shffIGvAjW1H3fiOorDw1dRcoLkg70f6kykCzzgrh5E=; b=Pl8A0pqWwL2kDHJfdp6I4kB1ZlILoOFKbmu/NT4KIBgoe2BW9YSHYkU7UxBuO1Adlp FfNy4Dd0vaAqOkTnHO71GiYkYMPu55aCcnli+XWFhP79SbI9EYmiAKNsDHhg3kcWM66f CQq9IrTc0xTRDcF0x14TkOy4DESvS7f4IHwYyavPLmOz3byzfu/b1jRJq2d6wiLUwo6i xXzJC60LlFhNrPJx1KZeKrSahN8Hfcm7L/7PgKW+XUpBgPTZbFYR0bX4xZFaZlw9LqQY eAYexTwVibs+KupBDiaaMgn9GPq2uvLI3UirvL4C/x4CJq2d0dv0KaGc2ie5cexH0saw KV9A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532YuMjnIEBlolA9JhWuQaerr0tgJUoPGyKMWIUG5BE8VG2udz+X CO/ZdT5oRnsy+WvUSdAiva6GJyao/7JRl3oX7wBmcu6g X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxEggc6Gdj/qGLmFOSS4XYH4QJj1Ok1US08W055OB9deiNgI/ZtSBrt7heWBlnFyqWRj8H4iGwneG73eunrud8= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bcc2:: with SMTP id l2mr4581912ybm.154.1592320734428; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:18:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:18:43 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Polytropon Cc: Aryeh Friedman , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mX0b200bz48BD X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=rHCZkcjm; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.58 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.975]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.86)[-0.864]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.041]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,sohara.org,freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:18:56 -0000 > > And again - there's absolutely -nothing- wrong with that at all, I never > > said that there was... Millions of companies provide support to millions > of > > users every day using email... That being said, I get a 80 character > plain > > text email from a company as "support," I deem that as unprofessional, > and > > the email will more than likely just be deleted. We live in modern > times, > > unfortunately. Presentation matters, whether you like it or not. > > Interesting apoach. Do you value presentation more than content? > In case of support, personally I would want something that helps > me solving my problem, not something that looks good. Sadly, the > "looks good" has lead to many technically inferior solutions > becoming a de-facto standard, because the better solutions simply > "don't look as good". > You hardly get good support these days from companies irrespective of how the email is formatted, so for the most part I don't personally bother with emails to begin with. Google for the most part, yields much better results, and for the most part I don't need to care how an email is formatted. Again, we live in an online, and connected world (for the most part). > > Cut & paste from the attachment, then you won't have any formatting > issues > > from any MUAs, but I guess it's too much effort to open the attachment. > > Certain MUAs display the attachmend right underneath the message, > especially if it's things like images or text that can be easily > embedded. Depending on the MUA in use, getting the content of the > attachment requires one or more additional steps, but it should > not be a problem. > > What _could_ be a problem is that the mailing list explicitely > does not support attachments in general, or only allows a specific > subset of formats (like plain text attachments). > > But as I mentioned in an earlier message, sometimes code is "inlined" > in a message, or even in a paragraph, for example: > Filesystem Size Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > /dev/gpt/sysroot 213G 196G 480M 100% / > devfs 1,0K 1,0K 0B 100% /dev > tmpfs 5,8G 4,0K 5,8G 0% > /compat/linux/dev/shm > procfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% /proc > linprocfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% > /compat/linux/proc > And see that I didn't put any linebreaks here, so if a MUA now > goes ahead and collapses it into one line, then rendering that > line in a paragraph mode (ragged right or justified), depending > on your settings (font size, font face, window size etc.), it > became totally useless. > And I copy and paste that into a text editor, it formats perfectly. I agree with you, the MUA is the problem - I maintain what I'm saying however, you're not going to change the MUA, and you're not going to change what MUA users use, or don't use. There is no solution to this. We can go on about this every few years, as has been happening on this mailing list every few years since I've been subscribed to it. > Again, too much effort to open a URL > right? If you are offline, yes. Having a message full of external resources and not being able to access them reduces the value of said message to zero. But if I'm offline, I might not have access to my email either? I fail to see the difference? > I forgot that in the old days without GUIs, we couldn't even double > click. I guess you still can't today. Please don't insult people. And: Yes, there are a few users who probably can't click, or use any GUI at all. They surely are a minority, but excluding them just by being in "snob mode" is not fair. Yes, I'm primarily talking about users with extremely limited eyesight, and blind users. Then please don't insult me either. And I am not referring to you (please read the message in the context that it was posted). Almost every message from Aryeh towards me is insultitive. -- C From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:19:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C654333D882 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:19:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mX0p2r6Rz48XB for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:19:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MO9r5-1jW34A44cr-00OWGj; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:19:04 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:19:03 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Chris Knipe Cc: Aryeh Friedman , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616171903.7a60d7e4.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:BmrSZXSMI2RiH5R4dNQHk6L0FdPVdNBHzhPlJAXpghrpMwgwe1A iqIuBn4QP2jzfz/FvHPi3oQdRygW9W/DksSTNLu/yskGbwgI1hnE7spnQQhX1fevaA1Ofv5 8WfNWm+qLc8yoVkzAB0xHzZ+NL6ckmz/t00Ssrg2X57P2SI5Bg57TVgJbASGF+/WinGyyb+ DS9Wo7T8VqCHrrkKfRekw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:GW7xMu8jcGg=:K9IG3mY79rYcXKjVCWWbDO 7oj5fSrTwExa3QEQwvtOayiPqZuLiCiIknCp0d+JV3YbqNna7jIJVwqrrnFiXZd+OliTnbaCn 6OiUkV73ZrYFL8iTvitjgUZHCqx4OmPWeQpxHRQylaXuv3CSVY/+6Ud+KNePRedCHSow5oQw7 vSVVIjm52Mv0GUZYo3w3IWkqqdT231dokBouok49xsVmObYgZXc02CUv4qmkE4GjFQGS1KGlU s6KP0Br3hwQ0zB/9rquxb5vtd5ytn3oBrR9hUptyC+AdVtxSPEarJfGO/XY9OVrRd6oyM7WCE 0aZf6cspGMWl/x21xQzzEiCgYzQ2e1Go3FL8tunGP4tYtHP407lcc2G1TQqd4qcwGyApIQ8Lm X8qSihYPccfYlD840SkSlbrXKLNigUAfu83o78POpEaMIHkQ1/ABDwK3CuBQb3TnJyH+D0iWt UWFyw4ZcukO//3SjYD4nnyp0KXjiLXMKpJpEW7v0/Q2Eh/VLUyrobFnug4LYuD4m+xYR+2T6c LwuK1wlBZIE6QJAHhN9iCA7mSa3IZm3JP+zEuX78q+ilmfgQjFM4HwpnM1RJxIoGP7BQk4kPy D8ZaR/LtE9cUzYrhU2GHnNymfVWlxqPg3kLr6MV9I9kjRrPgZJb6vP0XD/tTLbAY66nAIhumR BHNBYWm4k4sJA+RfJ3++o68V+VCEpokzdKZQ3JXGu0dbinT84uD+qKRKmCKr6PDoimmckmeu/ 0yA2hyzj0HG8Y0GnXgjDP5iUKHLyxEfw0lrMTZcoNuUcp4t6xb/sDarPMbl2pc62SxDayR55U 0rnhWt5SgJFngbeeE1frRhRGzSEdMV8HivnvBLWfg+1RVY6wMK2iAD/5QkzASsxoTzWYgkA X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mX0p2r6Rz48XB X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.13) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.20 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.76)[-0.756]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.01)[-0.011]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.57)[0.565]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:19:07 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:32:25 +0200, Chris Knipe wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:27 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > > > It doesn't evolve as fast you *THINK* it does for example our system > > supports over 200 different doctor offices/practices and about 10% still > > use Windows XP at 1024x768 and *REFUSE* to move to anything newer even > > after being told that using anything older than Windows 8 is an automatic > > HIPAA violation (DHS OCR [the office that oversees HIPAA enforcement] has > > said anything that lacks active vendor support is an automatic > > violation). About another 20% use Windows 7 and also refuse to upgrade. > > The console for the monitors (rarely used directly by anyone except for us > > the programmers) is 24x80 via a USB connector. So yes such screen sizes > > are an issue for us. > > > > > > Apples vs. Pears. Even XP, supports HTML email, even XP supports rendering > emails wider than 80 characters. If you mean "Windows XP", it doesn't support anything of that. Programs do, and you usually have to install them before you can use them. > Some of my code is GUI, running on 7", or 14" monitors. Nothing forces my > -code- to be 80 characters wide. Yes, the -rendering- is a different > story, the -code- is not. Absolutely correct. There are people who state that code should end in a specific column to be considered "good code", but the problem again is that this is not a 1:1 relation. Bad code can be more or less than 80 columns, so can good code. Code quality cannot solely be judged by line width. And you can cheat when you use the tab character: From the default 8 colums, set the display to 2 columns and you can write more code. :-) As I mentioned people with limited eyesight and people who are blind, there are those with no spare money to buy new big screens. And even if they did, physical screen size is not the only parameter, as I already explained (resolution and font sizes etc.). There are those who cannot easily move their head, but need to sit near the monitor: Forcing them to painfully more left - right - left - right - left - right so read extremely long lines intead of just moving their eyes to read narrower text is definitely nothing one should perceive as desired. You are probably old enough to know what a newspaper is. Is the regular text arranged in long lines across the paper? No, it is arranged in columns of specific widths. This is done for several reasons. One important one is readability. And mailing lists offer the flexibility to readably fit in many settings (even non-visual ones!). And after all, shouldn't readability one of the primary goals when posting to a mailing list? I mean, there's always an intention: I have a problem, I seek help, therefore I have to explain the problem to readers who will hopefully be able and willing to show me how to solve the problem. Forcing them to go to external resources, to watch ads and web videos, to reveal their identity to web trackers or register to services with their credit card and "Facebook" login to see a little code snippet is... well, I don't think it sounds right... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:21:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89BF733E21B for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:21:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49mX303qYNz48r8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:21:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CDD984E652 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:20:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:20:59 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mX303qYNz48r8 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.04 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.43)[0.427]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.77)[0.771]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.74)[0.740]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:21:01 -0000 This my message is definitely not intended as a reply to anybody's statement. It is just a plain observation what this thread looks like to me. But first: the meaning of the word appearing in the thread title: Etiquette Etiquette (/ˈɛtɪkÉ›t/ and /ˈɛtɪkɪt/; French: [e.ti.kÉ›t]) is the set of conventional rules of personal behaviour in polite society... - taken from this wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette Now I came to my observation: rather noticeable portion of messages in this thread are far from being polite in my observation. I know, the polemics could be like that, but my observation is what it is, take it or leave it. Valeri ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:27:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D967133E6C5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:27:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb35.google.com (mail-yb1-xb35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mXBb4mjhz49cR for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:27:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb35.google.com with SMTP id m16so11020394ybf.4 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:27:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pA3y9Hm9Xi7IXgH2nUEnsPWmh5gBkgO27kUujsewq3o=; b=BTW7ulfdcJtQF/jZgdTDlXBobr25zq927loYscqfBS3RnecvFPHAPwmzuu9sdpYS0D +bV1LQrplUOzOxj4yCb1HvzoMnS3e2bHj9KRBFsiZ2wpNibm5IOj7sJlLeQccD6JYq9D gd+1ycSfSrtNA0loUPVCfIllCXS6kjfR/GDwIjTcH8qFTCe7qehUG2XMRKYrP30TB4IN CfogUV5xcEPURYdENXwjMO4hnVo8poMZinDYa/NcIGgWtFQpRaboLHgV/vsEMQExeZcc EsV0X9Of9WDWUN0UBXc7RluwlMO83Kg7j+n7oBVScwrYJb96AGAJ//VqM6gZnDaJr2vj B+VQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pA3y9Hm9Xi7IXgH2nUEnsPWmh5gBkgO27kUujsewq3o=; b=cYFFkdxvykfI+MFQ3+wlyKZxLm2WMtny4g0qw53TGwJAg3rNW+PHEKt7DW2iNVA5zC In0NdQwdlDPD1J1HqOnTqs3UTVR8WUm+/vdTwMZ8w9wkUCVFTHL4vYo6+LJVhIzg+KAa uTaq/ANr0T2aMHIPpC1Axv+zsm8iRrAberNy3hqelxCauGP++knUnImRMB0r5r/ZpRJV wAG4JNVmcwmZjShZUAINVMe3ZNQ9M2yHHUijqh6UgdA1LMFuuNc3KqVgP5l29fyWvMHB uti2bgtIuAfuTfcRM8qTlzK1rsDpDb7zFfmeRiPL2KKnWvf9MyoqF3VI5CPSQQ7HpLtw RHwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532NC1j6xdHuUvl5HxKjrCcd8nuZBvaXFVPcR+RDY5VgBEMTNPYX Izr3tRvL+x66I9+n3otbNAq/VkhXlrINvQ82IdZQRX9M X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwR4JJeuRU7/xQncsH1plclR1MzcG+neAOdlTGfp4o0S0QPdQSJlMqDEkCfYH/sVED+XXMzOA+MCXS0XSvoOuI= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bd0:: with SMTP id 199mr5113643ybl.329.1592321254491; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:27:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:27:23 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mXBb4mjhz49cR X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=BTW7ulfd; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.77 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.041]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.52)[-0.524]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:27:36 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 5:18 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > Since you've likely never needed to connect one you wouldn't know but they > can send email and text messages. Text messages (SMS) are limited to 140 > characters thus if you need to send a longer message you need to > fragment. Also status reports are sent to the clients employees and > sometimes to patients and most of them use smart phones and thus have > *LESS* than 80 character wide screens and it still has to be readable for > them. Since 80 is a good compromise between all these demands it is a > good requirement for any email the system sends (we even have an automated > test to make sure no message has a line longer than 80 chars for this > reason). > > Again, please don't insult my intelligence. I've worked many for years at Clickatell, which is one of the biggest bulk SMS providers in the world. SMSes are actually limited to 160 characters. It's not a 'fragment', but it's a STANDARD defined in the SMPP Protocol (which is the protocol used to transmit / receive SMSes, in case you didn't know), and you can combine any number of 160 messages into a single one. They can virtually be as long as you want them to be if you use the correct technology. Then there's also MMSes, which can even be used to send multi-media content (MIME and BASE64, for reference sakes). The reason why a smartphone is called 'Smart', is exactly that. It can load a multitude of email clients, all perfectly capable of rendering emails > 80 characters. -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:37:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA38533F027 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:37:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mXQD16nWz4BR5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:37:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id t9so1872809ioj.13 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:37:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=brzsk6X7EIkXlHtPTJQQRUVq2+pGOO3tZMWM6Ck97/g=; b=A6Ga4/o+FPtODKnpSLh+Ednihz0Q3CGx/hBhGyJS2W/eTUX8ZbX4PEwR2pV1BuIYK7 3eKk24mJjsJyGB6+u9Nx6dSB9imt9ebZ9Pl+78BLlL4SEkbWJUHpnfK4bILdVrYUW0mp m+EEyG8vGcMZnd2L40e3vb80WHHd9NocHNMmBo05PT4S99Qo56OMxS7Plq0TRasJqbM5 009/P5TZPcHnjP6NNCNBdnom+EF8f2O28bxz4/oUM8wYzBmw9vpw5a4N+bokFPZhfrxn Z9bBNV2DSl/BhiBNnfHtmpWD5yZoMZkysjq8jGqzV0gCWOXGbfFnn/ZXEY3+/PtuDLyn e+XQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=brzsk6X7EIkXlHtPTJQQRUVq2+pGOO3tZMWM6Ck97/g=; b=P9+3BXgUR3KOFGPP0YedHhdHGnidTXjWSv2MauZ42Jr8MynI+BJCry4/QTg6gohTZ5 I307Gons0GJt7Sfs4VrAnI7pWpv7NzBhkNCF2PnxlGBBs66fDPGmCtwqyfBvIfGQSasa bM2tkXrioz4z/iXuEyvfFbNQOWS/78cpUAjk0mXomvAf6MAl0GoBgLh3JbxnitrJ1f3S TJlkFJ+QQOiPpBuVZ0jLp14D3eGRDYtpP5gN7HT50HSfw0X+72sTQ8TzIpQYjBTq88uM BiTzmDm1L2btIhIVyyjvcRTa2NryhM2GeXfmgQSXOigBYO3FqgI6TctGQtLfLe4BP9Hj 7PPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Pb122Fdi6sJAYRGEUdajEnkueDgXKcyR3Zvb82Vb1sMjO+Hkx /bfSBQ7GvFTAsezXprFsdWPSY/T8DZwC7ydcyXw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwTIXJhFeQdWM7h/0QY9vf4VMM4m/0mKvOt+hnPHpqscY5mRwU9xJYqygnZxcU5JtE/X3qH0IOjgsJTTG24cao= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8e19:: with SMTP id e25mr3777333iod.36.1592321858106; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:37:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:37:26 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mXQD16nWz4BR5 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=A6Ga4/o+; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.71 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.051]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.66)[-0.657]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:37:43 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:27 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 5:18 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > The reason why a smartphone is called 'Smart', is exactly that. It can > load a multitude of email clients, all perfectly capable of rendering > emails > 80 characters. > Again you missed the point completely it is not that the email is limited to 80 chars it is the lines are and longer lines broken at unpredictable places are unreadable. And as your comment on SMS and gluing together not all phone users use smart phones there are people who prefer and/or require dumb flip phones. Good example is ultra Orthodox Jews (and I suspect other ultrarigious people in other faiths) who consider the fact that you can access stuff that is impure (i.e. porn, gossip [gossip is forbidden by the Talmud] and foul language) on the Internet that using the Internet (except for work and/or life critical applications) is forbidden (or at least to be used as little as possible since many things require Internet access these days). For this reason the same ultra Orthodox refuse to use smart phones and instead use flip phones (you can buy "kosher" phones in Israel but they are incompatible with American networks). Only smart phones will not fragment the message. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:38:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F5A33F03B for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:38:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mXQh1lZLz4BV9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:38:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N8ojI-1irRYF0X1q-015sqe; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:38:01 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:37:59 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Chris Knipe Cc: Aryeh Friedman , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , FreeBSD - Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616173759.5368a67b.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616164751.dbc4888a.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:VcjNoOmPs0wKDwvV2RfB9e0LyZhXleQMqooDogTNJCMoILjT83X zI7p+cI1xLtsvTyR7zzVE3D+bR4hMD8zT38nhFJdJrj7J3La7UvNghjLgFJF6yr/Z1TAI/f Fwlxcz1Fpgz5xKKPAF2Iw+LmLDGXyUAXda3gbx5PmEpM7hw/Fdp87XaIox9KR7KaT5+5b71 s3Yd7XcY+dUyUJggEMFtw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:k6kRjnyrXHY=:ID3a2+OHMy0um51aD6BASH xw1d74bbYmE/3xKhVn1rmSVZkd1MtLWGxZSvEnnFqIj9ZpOqHly/5FF2HZtAQvB15Steh3riR IqKKQsy/Zd4kGi7f+Ve07o6xbOGJOCvJdsSl5zI6cYw1uEtA0ZGfRcGBWFUv4/uPmg1BlYWBx o/O/HCdKI+9UnlUyrh6p1EhpglkbQ+dD0MERvB9oIotZrry69bY6J6rHyhnbKWQX7FSBmQCeB TpirEAaiLQa/RHLDotLl7SBgcJNKfXyFUkZTiQds2RvFwVVkBf1qnUzx/siGVZQLadF+IS6wu yPXp3MuFyoV+DJF1qNu/GAFc4hwaGeD8IwcxJasCR5Wu5E3x/RmG+jItOVbVe3mZud7tqOMgV 20XibTTeE843vhV/0bkapcDR65nTl4cWuN4t52Px2yYZwNQHK0wukZuGALXSij8fdkuWDJCLN p1CDyqykYOo9nFqmw0Huf65srmQVd8l4820WL5kfT9Qxz2SsAETMTp+JQJ7/4Ksn1zSUIWQlc 9keEXs6PQj3SjsBQZW8vlXUJfLMTfKHVhUAA3itr5r/ZbdMTD7bl+0YAzjPxdqrC3YGtaEXBB MdUBtXCJZaaY/QSEaErOb0movWeqZ23sZXAatPfr8JB1at5OCAXYZnlo/iDviEHdRcywLq5E6 CXBmTTL72AXGDfRlghYc21z22mH3zO7hLyCMmAxuU//UgOR+lOXN+xhOn8QarGj3y9lpp64N5 rC4DAZsXvMjjhC/lA5BruVeU8PnNRpYWnSc4JIuP7Qvl/7vhto3VpGqXYLn2YIMF6FwtE/pE0 qGGr+XyLTJZhCyOs291bYKGLGZBspoahasLZRzfytUJTPlchJ4RWl8iLd6zFSU2l/c/g4gG X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mXQh1lZLz4BV9 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.25 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.23)[-0.229]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.01)[0.010]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.57)[0.572]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,sohara.org,freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:38:05 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:01:45 +0200, Chris Knipe wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:47 PM Polytropon wrote: > > [...] > > > If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is > > > there for a reason)... > > > > > > There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) > > > > Those are external resources that can vanish for some reason. > > > > And if I use IMAP, and my IMAP server is unreachable? Then I also don't > have access to my email and therefore it has also 'vanished'. You're not understanding. Intendedly? Some users do not live in an "always online" environment. They obtain their messages via IMAP or POP3. Then they read and answer them offline, and finally establish an Internet connection again to send their answers via IMAP or SMTP. During the offline phase, they do not need any external resources to be able to read the entire message, including code, logs, tables, diagrams, or config file snippets (or whole example programs). > I see no difference to having code in an online repository, vs. in an email > client. There is a big difference. I tried to explain it. With IMAP, you know the presence of the "offline cache", and email is not tied to being online all the time, nor is email defined by the requirement of external resources. There are even valid arguments against (!) incorporating external resources as I wrote (security considerations, privacy, etc.). > The difference is that an online code repository has been > specifically designed to hold, and format code correctly, a MUA, has not. > That is not what a MUA's intended purpose is. Again, the use of the MUA here is not regarding sharing code. It's about correctly (!) displaying code used within a technical discussion by technical participants. > > The goal of the mailing list is that messages can be processed > > off-line, and they are perfectly allowed (!) to contain things > > like source code, ASCII tables, even simple networking diagrams > > or even formulas. Incornporating "external technology" for > > something the medium can do in its own doesn't sound very > > convenient (even though it sounds "modern", so it could probably > > appeal to certain users just due to this fact). Some mailing > > lists, such as this one, do not use binary attachments. > > Using text attachments for code is probably possible. > > However, this is a _discussion_ mailing list, not primarily > > intended for sharing code. That doesn't stop users from > > presenting code in the context of questions (and when I say > > code, I also mean scripts, logs, sometimes ASCII diagrams, > > or configuration files). > > > > > I have to be 'online' to get messages from the mailing list, I can be > 'online' to view code in a repository. No. If you get the messages, say using IMAP or POP3, you do not automatically retrieve any external resources. I'm not aware of a MUA that does this. You could, you know, add something like http://code.example.com/bigfile.txt (4069 MB) and your conncection would be saturated for minutes or hours, or your mobile Internet plan would run out of space. > If I solely rely on gmail, and I'm > offline? You do. Not everyone does. Some users prefer not to share all their life with mighty Google (or any other online service for that matter). As it seems, many users on _this_ mailing list prefer using a MUA program (local installation), for whatever reason they chose to do so. Is that wrong? Should email requiring you to always use a web browser? > I can't view my emails, I can't view said code (formatted > correctly or not). I can view everything even without any Internet. Power of MUA. :-) > We are in a modern society where connectivity is paramount (again, I am > talking about the majority, not the minority stuck in the basement using > 360K floppy drives). You know that Internet access often isn't for free? That you pay for being connected, or for using a mobile device to connect? You also acknowledge that a growing amount of people doesn't seem to like the idea of always being forced to do things online, in a walled garden? So _if_ you talk about the majority, you should also admit that the majority, always online, does not use email at all, as someone else pointed out. > The majority of us have connectivity 24x7x365 (or > some reasonable alternative to that). Especially on a technical mailing list where users arrive with Internet problems (cannot connect, connection drops, doesn't work as fast as it should, and so on), requiring them to have a working connection all the time is snob mode. And not helpful. > What if my POP3 email is at home, > and I am traveling? Mark as read, keep on the server, connect with IMAP. Use a trusted device. > How will I see said code? What if I have access to > some 'random' WiFi hotspot, but can't access the mailing list archives? Then you probably can't access your webmailer either. :-) > I hear what you are saying - however email is not, and never was intended > to be used for archival purposes. The mailing list archives, as an important source for help in "solved problems", and for reference purposes, begs to differ. > Source Code repositories such as GIT > were designed specifically for this purpose. No, they were not intended for technical discussions involving code snippets. Yes, I know, they can be _used_ for that, but that's not their primary purpose. You can use a knife to beat a nail into the wall, but wouldn't it be easier to use a hammer? > I can argue just as much as > you can. You maintain you will have 24x7x365 access to your email whilst > you may not have 24x7x365 access to a resource on the Internet. That is not what I wrote, for more information please reread. > unfortunately, goes both ways. I can very much have access to online > resources, but not to my email. So also to the mailing list archive. Your argument is invalid, my bike is a unicorn. :-) > > Visual presentation of data is a different "layer" than > > the data itself. And there is no 1:1 relation. Things like > > font size and displaying should not be a matter of the > > mail message itself, except... yes, it's not that easy! > > > > As a programmer, you will surely agree that there is: > > > > a) text that should be presented as it was written, > > > > b) text that the MUA is free to (and should) arrange, and > > > > c) text where it simply doesn't matter what the MUA does. > > > > Making this choice isn't always easy. Multipart-MIME can be > > helpful. Even though a mailing list is, by no means, a "one size > > fits all" solution, so there is a certain consensus about what > > is useful and what is rather not. This consensus changes over > > time, and within this consensus, there are many ways a user can > > express his questions, answers, suggestions and thoughts in a > > mailing list message. > > > > > I agree with you. The MUA should NOT modify the message, and I despise > this as much as you do. Fact remains, you're not going to change every > single MUA in the world, and you are most certainly not going to get > everyone to use the same MUA either. Work WITH the MUA, and not AGAINST > the MUA. Your code belongs online, not in some arbitrary MUA that formats > said text as it 'believes' is best. No, it does _not_, ***IF*** it is part of the discussion. Again, see code as logs, diagrams, simple formulas, config files, or programming language code, or scripts. In the mailing list archives, you can find a lot of code: temporary fixes for problems, scripts that solve a specific problem, program invocations, awk examples to get something out of a log file, or things like that. They are part of the discussion, so they are part of the message. Sometimes they even evolve (!) during the discussion, and the included code snippets express that. It has nothing to do with code contribution to a project, not with revision control. It is what it is - a part of the discussion. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 15:51:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE6533FAA5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:51:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mXk20CSQz4CpZ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:51:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M2wbS-1jk7PG3voa-003Iiv; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:51:19 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:51:18 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Chris Knipe Cc: Aryeh Friedman , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , FreeBSD - Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:0qS6s/BkGbvc5M8GohwuRGWt74zJEs64KgTc2cGgZZuaiRElHWK sI1wgtn0quMrPFbSdIOT4RiHS1BhixAl+hGMya971cK0dnWeIMpFN20NX1Pyrj7fpJ7VgEi SILw/qLCX99vR0XeM7Kcszr6juKkLyrdK0O25EP4wxHqJTc4G48gFrxNbkcJ9MM0SvKjnGu ew1kNm8r7zG7xPyNrPOoQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Yxp1wtQ2eY8=:W9d/Q6e1C5nfX8DI9GM7Eq weGEpZIm8au9sc4bH65ysAqi0W+5A1D20eV1cbBdYwEvI5DYKTJAksIzUYzF5bRfKWkcmX6+n D005vUP9F6l2d1pXUu5X1sBgY3/GqgIlB1KW9gi0A3IXdpvNhJ0exSvOk1MCy5QYJF2AFmn84 UmOTjg5iXUNDsZ22SWNA+91xbSYTHKbcnzEnAnBHIBPQHrkUvsdoLaPhFEXuuxkEQX8tNv+wg UjE0NXT79p+a2oaE8qfeIrMUWQen8rgITTz7PFMCaayqjzg7NhSnN70hDLjTVmDd3BGwbSI3z UqxXheWsYeK/EriPX1paCuXzyOi7n/4m4e/bepuMUg+po0dp4AOwh+TkORwCCevD4TYV1xAut MWtabMqJV7y1VvvWQfN1x1a5RVar+uGlqyTfoBjEsOe9GzMCEnM0ng2rovlwdjP9n24NR02qf xRLylPMMmKPonr0bzxLL1lzzM+qzKShNXgFhT65RwbcXk0duZv3uw+Z7pt4wNs4WRgki8NhoB PCVD0cSZ0hGKEPvVoDXEHWvxQ+3B+ilj4PqaKmgMZC6ao78F6qBLfUv6NKnRUMaF1r9m5eiwM 9SxgOfbRWyLJ6jo7OzJ6TZKei6VhWS1cO8xz8Uhh866J+ZON1zNPlUINDBYp/e+boHh16IONU 2Fy7Kvfw2Z6AAOrTs+s3ge95J4N4ZABRYr/4Mmfxim9hoNSXYU7/ChVndZj0mhrPnHbVj+12N B1qYcENRQef47H/qqbmmkliFfBew8f8e/DIU1Eoitm+5Kcxwkuw6I1hB4V9VJok2x1R1n3sro R8uwRtGsSmpq0PSZtul7mRzhgQSzjDfeyBrImOWg2v6gkW8hLmZyNiIBbXpjCgcTKnUaVuk X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mXk20CSQz4CpZ X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.14 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.19)[-0.193]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.09)[-0.088]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.52)[0.524]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,sohara.org,freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:51:22 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:18:43 +0200, Chris Knipe wrote: > > > And again - there's absolutely -nothing- wrong with that at all, I never > > > said that there was... Millions of companies provide support to millions > > of > > > users every day using email... That being said, I get a 80 character > > plain > > > text email from a company as "support," I deem that as unprofessional, > > and > > > the email will more than likely just be deleted. We live in modern > > times, > > > unfortunately. Presentation matters, whether you like it or not. > > > > Interesting apoach. Do you value presentation more than content? > > In case of support, personally I would want something that helps > > me solving my problem, not something that looks good. Sadly, the > > "looks good" has lead to many technically inferior solutions > > becoming a de-facto standard, because the better solutions simply > > "don't look as good". > > > > You hardly get good support these days from companies irrespective of how > the email is formatted, so for the most part I don't personally bother with > emails to begin with. It's good that in general and everywhere, companies invest in skilled personnel rather than shiny ads promoting their services. And instead of employing good programmers, they employ designers so at least the ad-filled emails look good, even if it doesn't help anyone. :-) > Google for the most part, yields much better > results, and for the most part I don't need to care how an email is > formatted. Again, we live in an online, and connected world (for the most > part). People with technical problems (who address the mailing lists) often don't. That's why they ask for help. > > > Cut & paste from the attachment, then you won't have any formatting > > issues > > > from any MUAs, but I guess it's too much effort to open the attachment. > > > > Certain MUAs display the attachmend right underneath the message, > > especially if it's things like images or text that can be easily > > embedded. Depending on the MUA in use, getting the content of the > > attachment requires one or more additional steps, but it should > > not be a problem. > > > > What _could_ be a problem is that the mailing list explicitely > > does not support attachments in general, or only allows a specific > > subset of formats (like plain text attachments). > > > > But as I mentioned in an earlier message, sometimes code is "inlined" > > in a message, or even in a paragraph, for example: > > Filesystem Size Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > > /dev/gpt/sysroot 213G 196G 480M 100% / > > devfs 1,0K 1,0K 0B 100% /dev > > tmpfs 5,8G 4,0K 5,8G 0% > > /compat/linux/dev/shm > > procfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% /proc > > linprocfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% > > /compat/linux/proc > > And see that I didn't put any linebreaks here, so if a MUA now > > goes ahead and collapses it into one line, then rendering that > > line in a paragraph mode (ragged right or justified), depending > > on your settings (font size, font face, window size etc.), it > > became totally useless. > > > > And I copy and paste that into a text editor, it formats perfectly. This is as it should be. Stupid MUAs would have rearranged this into a single line: > > But as I mentioned in an earlier message, sometimes code is "inlined" > > in a message, or even in a paragraph, for example: > > Filesystem Size Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > > /dev/gpt/sysroot 213G 196G 480M 100% / > > devfs 1,0K 1,0K 0B 100% /dev > > tmpfs 5,8G 4,0K 5,8G 0% > > /compat/linux/dev/shm > > procfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% /proc > > linprocfs 4,0K 4,0K 0B 100% > > /compat/linux/proc > > And see that I didn't put any linebreaks here, so if a MUA now > > goes ahead and collapses it into one line, then rendering that > > line in a paragraph mode (ragged right or justified), depending > > on your settings (font size, font face, window size etc.), it > > became totally useless. It displayed in a paragraph to fit the user's settings. (I see this already in my composer window: formats nicely, adapts when I change the window size, and is absolutely useless.) The problem is not MUAs doing the right thing. The problem is MUAs "knowing better" and doing the wrong thing, therefore stopping the user from properly reading and dealing with a message. > I > agree with you, the MUA is the problem - I maintain what I'm saying > however, you're not going to change the MUA, and you're not going to change > what MUA users use, or don't use. There is no solution to this. We can go > on about this every few years, as has been happening on this mailing list > every few years since I've been subscribed to it. We can try to do the best with the tools we have, try to create better tools, and hope users will, sooner or later, use the better tools available. But as you know from history, the last part probably isn't going to happen. :-) > But if I'm offline, I might not have access to my email either? I fail to > see the difference? Use the concept of "online on demand": Connect, get, disconnect. Read and write. Connect, send, disconnect. There are users for whom this is the normal way they participate on mailing lists, and sometimes the only way they can afford. For synchronous communication, there are other tools (that will force "always online"), such as IRC, web chat, or any of the smartphone-based messenger services. > Then please don't insult me either. Where did I? (That's a honest and non-polemic question, I'm not aware I did, especially not on purpose.) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 16:00:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36BC83405CA for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:00:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mXwF0XR2z4FQS for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:00:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id c185so19628899qke.7 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:00:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=YRswazzHmbEb7ismmwYPP15W3ED67i8PKQgRmi5Aji0=; b=S8tBksQfolMb+8QuGExA5wBireqM83a6+0J9UWw1qsSunWEvnqBbCgk/8plcKt0HDA i+oLMm4c/YP++occOFixfh0pQefezoUf8fWqwMFtdkTOTwJtdVibBVcB9MKFvP5DGMrU BGF9XMq4d73oe9g/MmHvwgHCEwp6LLtkjRbKY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=YRswazzHmbEb7ismmwYPP15W3ED67i8PKQgRmi5Aji0=; b=jM6B7CNvIfXsUqOJxIRkuuUEE9OR2hgMKt7nqPLvV3rPYlV7QOcOKFoqA3CRroZlJS E3x3oAes7TijFscsRZIiXV/LDCd9epPcJWDDrJDNHtipIh4U7uJSu2iEBL2Bi11ucZSv zZcUOJlNfNpM322Dgwfio1/pYHJ3L9bBKcBenZ3sDT99LPgsUq7B9IyvkjQG86/1Rr1m pX0dZV3a/4J2+zxRhOoyj6jsDP10bsQcVaN2JV0AcM1EfiDwyAozhgstv0ulYlOF3osi TM0ToIqFFdwNCuJLYG8JEscLrXtDPxzEvlfUcamHqYmP/iFFUYwHrcM8clWYLLoFJotf r0Ag== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531PGTQ1nZvM5/TSjTBtW07SewghQF3OKycS01l0wM6sa9IchpEF oPFF/S1gz5yxAVuLxiU/fb3op0WS0aE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz22ZUhCzKFNzgAew4JfogTl5W27O7fw0BAGjvT6yboUiYY00DzvxljsdUbg5AuqL/LnvK/4w== X-Received: by 2002:a37:67c7:: with SMTP id b190mr20174958qkc.228.1592323209607; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p63sm14056246qkf.50.2020.06.16.09.00.07 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mXw113tLz4SH4 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:00:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:59:51 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616115951.00005528@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/nPBHcik2xitirF6L23_T7ms"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mXwF0XR2z4FQS X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=S8tBksQf; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.56 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.91)[-0.914]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.07)[0.071]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:00:14 -0000 --Sig_/nPBHcik2xitirF6L23_T7ms Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:09:06 +0200, Polytropon commented: >Interesting apoach. Do you value presentation more than content? >In case of support, personally I would want something that helps >me solving my problem, not something that looks good. Sadly, the >"looks good" has lead to many technically inferior solutions >becoming a de-facto standard, because the better solutions simply >"don't look as good". That reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago pertaining to "perceived quality". If you happen to fall off a ship into the ocean, do you really care it the life preserve thrown to you is a bright, shinny new one, or just one that works? I have seen a few users here claim if they receive a transmission and it is not in the format that they approve of, they will delete it. Now, allow me to say this as nicely as I possible can. If some entity wants to send an electronic document formated with a 200 character line length, R2L with the characters inverted, that is their right. If the intended recipient chooses to discard that communication, that is their right. ".eussi eht no susnesnoc a ot emoc ot gniog reve era ew yaw on si ereht dna= retrats-on a si tI ?daerht siht no emit gnitsaw ew era lleh eht yhW" ,nois= ulcnoc nI --=20 Jerry --Sig_/nPBHcik2xitirF6L23_T7ms Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7o7HkACgkQOHMGOIfe xWTsNAgAzk7oqk0P8lo73RGbMClvrayqMWBghnvSmF85c3+tbE1WRbTuBQqWkoe4 NHh7HOsUPkfo6d92uQL+92+JrfJDhGRZRPeayBNSsxFbL2dh3e9LRiJYGxwHo9T/ DCaszJF+RVnwHX6PJ+5zOC0/It8JG8R/7+wXnBq8mvtm2fBaCDqeZhoCPDiW1oU8 T3k2UcjZWDGsHn26dYiNuLFn+gdrB3Q70/6WKnHlXX8GAXOzxLETVxRkqcuZZpLW 3xnjfW+lVTIMORFE5GP08bBpg3DkHHw2rETXRPYKC/s+cb4gWLcxzOYdM0U6nR2y Uog3xm9tWjJ0SB9Grq9cd7D9Do9ddQ== =gXd8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/nPBHcik2xitirF6L23_T7ms-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 16:22:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20546341511 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:22:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mYQ15qytz4Gw1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:22:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Mqagw-1j7RZQ0tJw-00mawq for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 18:22:32 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 18:22:32 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616182232.71d84b9a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616115951.00005528@seibercom.net> References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115951.00005528@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Q25ZKstcbQJbf5L3FdFvJWyxQ2MY/w8DcuTUBlzN1ec2z4iOGWh hhhpYoqRmTDjdjH/hEr2k95+56dfHUpTmMk+IWmJGQvSsOluo1A/9YqC8jd42UWR5ECZIN0 ec4gCaZeFVKhTVrKnQP1KgmWSnS8AHgm46IM4Y7Lb/nmZUVKPRVEBjhdW7xh2XFKy04Eway GdieYyDex07qi584dfTnQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:GMhKmdi+Xh0=:W5w7LTeDe/v+TukyKrVujc cwA4fN60fIeGG4+uuWVNNAXQ5FETgnqxVQIjqxBPYZXI8pAfegxzYZKwkLaQeaimOjgtdkhZc Y5llc2oxQRMcSIwmnc9vN+HBBvzIzn9Xb6Lmgyox9ni953kqeQoTBQ42/2nRfSXiBjskZ8LYR TWPeKdBJblkIvK8IGlm/WEACyGSDAYAWo/ma9HuaDC80FKVtp7/a2maxBWd4aXRDpA087U0Uy C6e+euStMau8dHXA6mgSL5VIoNc5eBEnwBt4XAFIjrTPz8caREccmTnRzyocda+wLfR+FjxuE aryPH33X1DEEjXCjNALnzP6bVSQ+MNlU88AbV+jUzRlGpv/9PVx0bavtPOPP/q8rNjNBCJ+WD ipIodQsQ6bsE13meQk6KHR5vz9QqbH9jMx6x1XIa5QPoUYkcb60HJnkV5DeBBSO5qbaDjPApT aQ9zSy9mi1fZFO6bGhpF2IW+9BcWDKrmfB1XQaUXLpBqogxp84m1hr/J/EO1aw6UF7iDv0ecB yRaz2aMOameble+pbidKegL1r2oiiis/IOlGz6K7h/kCrMpmF7OU0hzGmChQrpc2AVOs6Zeo4 YI2miH0lC+8PEVAcPygq8Rmoetk4SCpB4X4mof48J35Z4QABHN/UwFsQKYxRRZlxSKVRGO2PF y/v315dUsxsoQnay+RqJGO9HcsqMSdE+Xu09swhNsjnbPN1+xNcGlvA3c/9Xpq9KjTnxgMZnf MRKFTbTOGc8zdRBL7cL9CmFwcOStJYiy6oJvahZZxOyYpxr9rE9CONiA02VghHkGSaZ+u9jrl KeiZsWNpcHdh4uFX+BLdLdbe8gqYh/U9LLwQDE1eRedZx6pJ7hG7WXSF3iv46yNPxrQGLzQ X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mYQ15qytz4Gw1 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:22:34 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:59:51 -0400, Jerry wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:09:06 +0200, Polytropon commented: > >Interesting apoach. Do you value presentation more than content? > >In case of support, personally I would want something that helps > >me solving my problem, not something that looks good. Sadly, the > >"looks good" has lead to many technically inferior solutions > >becoming a de-facto standard, because the better solutions simply > >"don't look as good". > > That reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago pertaining to > "perceived quality". If you happen to fall off a ship into the ocean, do > you really care it the life preserve thrown to you is a bright, shinny > new one, or just one that works? Form and content should match to fulfill a specific purpose in a given context. Using the "tool analogy", users should use the best tools for each job, and use them properly if possible. On a mailing list, this doesn't just include line wrapping, headers, quoting indentation or general use of whatever MUA has been chosen, but also tone and skill in conversation. I'm saying this as a person who isn't particularly good at either. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 16:33:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78372342867 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:33:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mYft0xrNz4K4q for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:33:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MGhds-1jhKmE29wI-00DoRL for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 18:33:40 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 18:33:40 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616183340.9bcb7d4b.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616115951.00005528@seibercom.net> References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115951.00005528@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:0c8W80zr5mHKGsapOMGsAZv/TF39bAS/7wNW3dYhiuF7qyTzpI1 VwAEPZxND+LsDSP/GL3m+52MrtSdzriykgMkCQKH4GkiUN1T6ucZxJNcDyjzkgWR0xWrTbD CrsqNjkdASf2PPpeNzvLXIFDrZB//K26p1IUJZHfxLhIZUWfSpTj7NcAeRBXarpbC+MDbgu OljTI5JkRykcrQ/FHWocg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:uXnE8S/XK7I=:fIZg/T+7pGbAaa4nxXDH09 KANh6MYEW8XFnx6p8fBVftRVuMNhpD5UcP8czDzmyck9m5Tamq8ZmKuNfO9GAEdUQkEXy10sh /bgMtQIabEqehPpXIFOqc9kFygoXUDW3/mt78nL78QWjS7CiyiMhLUmxby9AiUD+UtnPf5RVx bKHy573lI7fd6CA1xC05GfSzVf6XWhzURA++2a35YjeEJctuYVgewkMoNDGRZ30Zw0hsz55LM to2R6tOpuC29la9cy3sEWmhI0jcQQSthuz+yZ7BrNHzgn+gnTVvfMbon4X/knrQsJryGeEQwC t0SwJblFUxmOy0l01dlnBVshe+3p6tBy0B29gtcpEgMgymwxaGuHaWTlVEgO191xLHpr17w+r IGyqRM/nms+hgxJ9K9TIZrXAopUDDeQ/CXITmOkj1/8iL0CpWa/ZypwZrXgJNg000jmZOCZ/J 5BJgffqV2hdwZma7p3u//xXBlYGXEcB+Cl5gK3dmaYB+1vHhAyVDziB75InZD0prn8SO6eKa7 payplLLgjS5hznGD8fU2XlZE9h5PlM5ZHDNkGbnJnH1+uE8IFffRVfcduQH4jhlkUCGOaQBuZ okEWFcHsSSXhd9VoffWjV4CJkGYCpg1sSzc5PzAd9NzAO1nKiOzCAz4XdrTn2n1QjQuKQMdU2 tXprhEEMnqoGxZJbJp+LpH/6Ry6PB2bLO43b3eg7ZlMvIbB/0aKSTxwRryuaawsbJnGJaWd3Q YeSC8qAP/WZjG0OdpfZHynt6Ph+5I4RAPqTt3vBdxty0vmkMy+CmfYKVPDUUJt8WZvVrtV1AM TmmqXS4VWDIoeOM9cyxHJDdrVyJxWvtRa+jahcIi8Cq/culhtqTp5qZSlUOR6lhasSMWb57 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mYft0xrNz4K4q X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:33:42 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:59:51 -0400, Jerry wrote: > I have seen a few users here claim if they receive a transmission and > it is not in the format that they approve of, they will delete it. Now, > allow me to say this as nicely as I possible can. If some entity wants > to send an electronic document formated with a 200 character line > length, R2L with the characters inverted, that is their right. If the > intended recipient chooses to discard that communication, that is their > right. Mechanism: "You want something - you do something." If people seek help from this list and present questions like this: I tried to execute http://bob.example.com/script.sh and got the error http://bob.example.com/error.txt, what should I do? I bet a majority of mailing list participants would not try to visit the external sources in the first place, but instead rightfully expect the code in question and the error message to be part of the question. (Of course, this is oversimplified, but I'm sure it's easy to get the idea.) Instead, if the question was this: $ cat script.sh #!/bin/sh echo "My name is $USER and I'm using $TERM." exit 0 $ ll script.sh -rw-r--r-- 1 bob staff 62 2020-06-16 18:32:14 script.sh $ ./script.sh ./script.sh: Permission denied. Immediately replies would be arriving stating the problem and offering a solution. On the other hand - "tool analogy" -, providing external resources for 200 lines of log messages is surely better than posting them to the list. Part of Etiquette is what what I would consider "craft your message carefully and intendedly", in this example, to only quote directly relevant or exemple lines from a lengthly log file instead of the whole file. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 16:37:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE1A342E96 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:37:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mYkt0H77z4KtF for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:37:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id n11so19764167qkn.8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:37:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=VTjaKHAmGGgSZ7mnOPMM95al/sZu3mHOHCikprv147c=; b=Ro3e8Mh5J9uBnAFciHh5lM/usG2kWPxiGU83En/xTjDqXNysq71ygvUi7Lz7eb+rGF MVaw8aCEKENnX+al6PGBn3GLRVzF5v2M+nvUm4idjT6zRF9jt6uJ8K8OaNWhIiPhpLVx dh9KwJ0IWFXRoPGECRyQ1eu9VlsGfa+YTGaM0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=VTjaKHAmGGgSZ7mnOPMM95al/sZu3mHOHCikprv147c=; b=OlMaRb3DTt4wdagN2kiQKm838sjHPN8XqGb8KiYpVLrn/aUs0eK8ByRLkWf0mIKPy4 SUQdtXdpOwN/dgpjoJOHWQrWLZc8RPuAwm32s46Jq7NRz6QSqyVNk0vX1sAvgXmlfZEg 7SItYOHTm13gYgmLIKEX6N2+K2HQwATaxGMXvlUX8o8LMtflV7D79ugObICsGoVELL46 LogZ+W1xLCEJZX9zZuXyNXmBXZdYol5GkFJYz2rE2xni4mF6yx9pCiRGqlDTxsBhYyxR 7+vjT5bhFnCMcWHc73isYhUJH9zXzS8vgIPwMQQjE7EwpHebah1096eyk+G7k6tRAkIb MuHA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533jpByMItIKRlxatgzJan2Tu8x7Yr11GwufbjfJ9PNfkdzUOs/Q KKza7RQQvqQXI+ZwZyVU8rZQVv6PK6g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzumLX8LDIrT9SZxGljAvbJyjmKxodB8Mxjel1iJCB7NGKZXOBI9R1uHMoc0eS1yXabDJWBFA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:bce:: with SMTP id 197mr21716881qkl.370.1592325428343; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s17sm10156090qkj.1.2020.06.16.09.37.07 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mYkp2K2Fz4SJQ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:36:59 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/TvOl/lkM_w1=o64tKz+Idp4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mYkt0H77z4KtF X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=Ro3e8Mh5; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::734 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.43 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.07)[-0.068]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.905]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::734:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:37:12 -0000 --Sig_/TvOl/lkM_w1=o64tKz+Idp4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:51:18 +0200, Polytropon commented: >And instead of employing good programmers, they employ designers >so at least the ad-filled emails look good, even if it doesn't >help anyone. :-) You obviously know very little about the retail market. In sales, perceived quality is often in a direct relationship to the outward appearance of an item. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/TvOl/lkM_w1=o64tKz+Idp4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7o9SsACgkQOHMGOIfe xWTWkwgApUM9yC+uFSTu7HOi84916vS1ZSuJ+kdoEc/Htndd0xvFXf3NziKAysLt t4RIBdHPEEyZYpSTQNgA0QwSYO5YYsFnz36riNEk3sxLWTZ3j/it/nFRKDIFyI1k 5ZjbUCC0IDK+9F4E/sPLwMcjXXHJh3OaSoR4ZAGjAEqnUTnprgbssUVu3dv04jcn KxzrjHsyuv2XgPlEyCCG9YfPYJ2KK7wE00X073QCpnkQWVAT04yySfG4rnHvzG+Z U8WJzobaoAim7nA+qqSto8rdlhc4QxU1qCzeqQh7oCHQS5j1rhhuRMd60HbS8k5z AMtq+odmXvcCCF80KP68hcuS398dUQ== =UZJc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/TvOl/lkM_w1=o64tKz+Idp4-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 16:38:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173FE342E7F for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:38:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mYmC0vYCz4KsZ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:38:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mYm9358PzFgpD for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:38:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592325497; bh=/HmAmPCyijFihqzzaHf2u5bBbefGu3Jn6QW2YCvtVO8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=ByCe8uI5TyL9qAoSHLuIfqMBDmgjm6l53GYP6Dzj2FXV8XeJ2hIQDDodT5IYXh+/W /6UsyIFcokF5Ao9OtOZnK+ZgkfFcW5ffcVDWuIzuVcAmRFCuEunpLUXcpYibCjujXT KMoeborU/7Jy+anNXKOG3hNIuHKTU4YdN4XhnTl4= X-Riseup-User-ID: 7B22F1F362EFB42FF02BF048BB349524DC997108EBA3C3F5A9092806C992CB58 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mYm86jngz8w97 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 18:38:19 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616183819.03c50ff6@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mYmC0vYCz4KsZ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=ByCe8uI5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.40 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.976]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.82)[-0.818]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:38:20 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:20:59 -0500, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >This my message is definitely not intended as a reply to anybody's=20 >statement. It is just a plain observation what this thread looks like >to me. But first: the meaning of the word appearing in the thread >title: Etiquette > >Etiquette (/=CB=88=C9=9Bt=C9=AAk=C9=9Bt/ and /=CB=88=C9=9Bt=C9=AAk=C9=AAt/= ; French: [e.ti.k=C9=9Bt]) is the set of=20 >conventional rules of personal behaviour in polite society... > >- taken from this wikipedia page: > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette > >Now I came to my observation: rather noticeable portion of messages in=20 >this thread are far from being polite in my observation. I know, the=20 >polemics could be like that, but my observation is what it is, take it=20 >or leave it. I don't follow this thread anymore. Actually nobody is against deviations, as long as the mails are readable. I never heard anybody complaining about "UTF-8" 8bit encoded mails I send to mailing lists. Even mails from other subscribers that sometimes are base64 encoded or multi-part mails containing HTML are tolerated. There's a lot of tolerance for all kind of oddities, even top-posting and reverse quoting a complete digests, by a complete digest, by a complete digest. However, for good reasons we provide hints how to format mails to a mailing list, when ever possible, to make participation pleasant for the majority of subscribers. On all mailing lists is a very loud minority explaining why Outlook style or what ever else is considered modern, is the standard for the majority of the world. Everybody is free to communicate with the majority of the world and send BSD or Linux related requests to this majority. Subscribers may reckon that a lot of other subscribers of mailing lists simply stop reading mails or even block addresses of the loud minority. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 16:44:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DFDD3434F1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:44:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x141.google.com (mail-il1-x141.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::141]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mYvF694Sz4Lm0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:44:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x141.google.com with SMTP id c75so19507818ila.8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:44:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2VhsVh/Th5vB9esBXZRggwIJo7zxrxWwSirhSdN7ueU=; b=IESvaJXbWwXUh+DlJILK4YXeo+0iAKob6NDcYjl828oR3m6fL5ep5VAmOm2NwZg6pO 1JlRQRSEU2vgVluZGMVplk+hcgPGshOafOqyDN3RWA1X7DwjIK7ISAKtQOacWF/WQp+n 5bZXynBrjFPDA3+IJ8CMlKrsHac2leESipRvnFZI9pJ+l0WjpErntW+mi+cIl88cqsLF OT44BGahBVNP8tIS5hxDss/m8HKAbp1hIc95/9O0scoiqrLBhqLXodUwp2PWNjrErJN3 gGxwaNgwpf8/4kAh0+W6dvMdxpiEUYGbk0AS978vXIQW8V03sQBdQQGq5PBzisPT+EMH mC0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=2VhsVh/Th5vB9esBXZRggwIJo7zxrxWwSirhSdN7ueU=; b=AuYXYvSG5thFOM6EedOi1FyQyyZH4F4AO3LkdoxCYU/VPIHbvqUNRWCSm9tH/amroz kKv6xMpARMfCZWLsJfEf2F+dL5njdcWFKGigDZmIVpPcdwjL5uIJWMENoWTQOzXvx591 rPBC6Khgnp2jDyEuT9Mj4v9VxKZbWHUW9d2iAwzTuyX+lN6bYR+VXCjMdZKZBDmOvATM zLMUAOT/wnKTrkByxK5hIzfhMTJXnRjXxhBah+O/1vXmF8LnuPtsMNNsXXssSPjuI0N8 4j1lwzpzNDVnLsh0/TW0Vi3N4HfmRW8x/ZWNaOZ56fwP+xwr5lkWUpU0qvlk1Ojq5Ufb qNJg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Lhx0XpniTlEi+Iiy+udtTkXLkqATaBIDekzpkiRzPT8d+Zqtx MPG3+JabWEj/us78NdnDI2lszuHSRADjpU+4bEvbUxxM X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyiDckPNJO75O13nTzsJj+xZa4eq8got8xhoy3lOC41OD3Ge3r1nxQhHVPbOMmYQ+sRkPA2SjHlXsp8OJokJWk= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d343:: with SMTP id a3mr4049107ilh.29.1592325864118; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:44:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:44:12 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mYvF694Sz4Lm0 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLY(-4.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:44:26 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 12:37 PM Jerry wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:51:18 +0200, Polytropon commented: > >And instead of employing good programmers, they employ designers > >so at least the ad-filled emails look good, even if it doesn't > >help anyone. :-) > > You obviously know very little about the retail market. In sales, > perceived quality is often in a direct relationship to the outward > appearance of an item. > FreeBSD is not a retail OS!.... in short for many reasons f**k retail computing... like I said dead users don't give a flying f how good something looks if it kills them! (Just ask anyone who started smoking because of how sexy the ad models were before tobacco ads were outlawed.).... in sort FreeBSD is a mission critical OS meant for professional use (if you use for desktop use like I do then it is purely accidental to its primary purpose). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 17:07:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296D23446C7 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:07:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x841.google.com (mail-qt1-x841.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::841]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mZPk2Kphz4NvZ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:07:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x841.google.com with SMTP id e16so16061417qtg.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:07:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=5vCALPOoWGIMhOpUuhNfyIKoCeoObGAAfEVDy5mqQbQ=; b=qriLfjdGd4Vaq5rIN7fyvVjwxcKHr+pvrIqxVX2dgRX0ZsEauxvGiKYkN1H8zoeQC4 qMFhj+y7NV0Jk6vV9DAHJTWTwDZ2xVcSGWCBYQFGWooDnYQ5kaCNWVCNWVWPrQNX0DaO ZTTcr+3x6K4Ld2+cSCYLjEwSqUJkbJJQ4iqfg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=5vCALPOoWGIMhOpUuhNfyIKoCeoObGAAfEVDy5mqQbQ=; b=gncLllFn+0OkRSlJ8l1+9PnBWOkJE4GhVu5mql07RDKAm59cUr+29N6jIBqyzmK1rx MO2eOthY/4vLdQtgvGvIrqXHIsbwN43e4jwjGk430+itMK4I9x9vDDCs7hmwZ2mdPLyh DY51J2X2MyrFRTTJs8NJM0Wk2TO+kuNWhogw8XWmnrk8zDLz/v/GYOWMt9gle/zDwkZy eSuS+Ws+5mUci28A9BnyBkIPceBUZAl+W/0V+YViC0rMp9JJMikhYl8aOB5ZKNtnt4ba LCMm5Rfdqk6tLb8Oy+8GMRDPIKn2PGdBxaiA69dEETfha4kybU5gEtJoCKNH9dA4ye2g baZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5326OGubzWLwxvgd1b+rEc22hA+dKrtrBHOd+Tey7JNa1QUJRKeO JgClRjNjN08tCCSCMaWLv74ncXJeNZg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyFgAwOfJbXbyp6mWOYqYVDD2/3JJX3BvMUbNR3swyuupy7qUVcHL0g1pS2SQxI1S8oOYZSRg== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:3a06:: with SMTP id w6mr21967082qte.199.1592327240803; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x36sm15467136qtd.97.2020.06.16.10.07.18 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mZPd5XSyz4SKQ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:07:10 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616130710.00002909@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/+lx8Imo8S17pTaJSVZ8Brar"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mZPk2Kphz4NvZ X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=qriLfjdG; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::841 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.27 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.20)[-0.199]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.943]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.986]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::841:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:07:23 -0000 --Sig_/+lx8Imo8S17pTaJSVZ8Brar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:44:12 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 12:37 PM Jerry wrote: > >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:51:18 +0200, Polytropon commented: =20 >> >And instead of employing good programmers, they employ designers >> >so at least the ad-filled emails look good, even if it doesn't >> >help anyone. :-) =20 >> >> You obviously know very little about the retail market. In sales, >> perceived quality is often in a direct relationship to the outward >> appearance of an item. >> =20 > >FreeBSD is not a retail OS!.... in short for many reasons f**k retail >computing... like I said dead users don't give a flying f how good >something looks if it kills them! (Just ask anyone who started smoking >because of how sexy the ad models were before tobacco ads were >outlawed.).... in sort FreeBSD is a mission critical OS meant for >professional use (if you use for desktop use like I do then it is >purely accidental to its primary purpose). You reply is totally out of context to the my response to Poly. Neither Poly nor I referenced FreeBSD in the post. The response was directed at advertisers and the means they use to convey an idea to the public. Your problem is that you are looking for problems where none exist, aka "Tilting at windmills". --=20 Jerry --Sig_/+lx8Imo8S17pTaJSVZ8Brar Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7o/D8ACgkQOHMGOIfe xWT8GQf+JIsxhYs7edoOnBgLWkkKsIqRn803uk5Jg2vSeno4l/zv4Mer68DaYYgt 4RK57wGpPbuY/0EcOjKqfN7Lc8rVoXspnxN+3LD3AeYU8xJ15wYVOGrqKjBv+yJQ /1aVz3Hc0pu/BJonS1ofSGxizmeh4xf9a1eiP0JivY3Ok/XcJ1C1s2Mkp61lNim4 4AdgBFvhjYLd8E/c5qYnU5iT6CrGWcsMe8UsSr6Fzr7Uaqx9S95cWw9ZsVM5+CmC 0fo5S5jTxrLysdAVJh6wnl/yU07IK1lnFw5C8grNRxmSWf248RNOhozYT+yOjBPR b4DvlAcT4rtf51aUb4tcanH3k/X5YQ== =8I+s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/+lx8Imo8S17pTaJSVZ8Brar-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 17:15:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E08344AB6 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:15:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x141.google.com (mail-il1-x141.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::141]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mZZc5ZLGz4PwM for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:15:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x141.google.com with SMTP id t8so3213838ilm.7 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:15:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=MLUOb2HEJz3ULNQpTwGQ7c6jDN87VtvUUMNN3N8FY0k=; b=oL1+Drf1IjRHCFQB0giES0UelMga9eAbbrgGUqwj+oQbLk/1I9ZaJosn4UIvLDpigz UO+OCAcN2YZNF5A06ZgTHSkV1pzOOlCA2sOC7mSmMtaRsI2SUQ/hP9WGx8vm1E/yJc7f 28Dx9ET2wAztkkmv0X74Okwnlk+ltDPxnMOdBcQ/A5iKFWkEukVWqN7Uc+fWldq/DRL+ raMTirxEwRd1K+Yw667ahXZmBxuRSbVFQ/++XoGLfOmNRZlnTQVxexHQzzS5WtIZMeEr sWJzHfjZcFmLPc7fiBgvzUed/vEsyDRm4qMNXcvS+HePqg22o4VA2lVn+TSJplANYVGf N8dA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=MLUOb2HEJz3ULNQpTwGQ7c6jDN87VtvUUMNN3N8FY0k=; b=umwfCfdJBII/WDDno8ihugZuHcuoKu9kcA38kkOGu50BaiUv9UsG9h2TmG0Wx0s+5s 9cMDrvvuQUiZ6vjbVOOfdLLEFIIo8HrSQs/qj35PedT/jyrKV8H2TgVQCeKE4TK0bYMa guhvLCXXWkNPvlanS5b7gM4E1iDoZeEXBO65KHGrMVOjj1lX4YgUnROOntbqfSmLpxDz nZBrw0qNPXogSxEBoy/khfCGDpJVie8bo1SGcWJLK0aXQwbFh+bxGh6D5Xg1Pj0e7yAd LeLreSq08Ynf8Rfj3HSvdbMmwp1mRdr85wP/ONZzr6dBXomLUxsBlAxozanrfnRE5s72 f7ug== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530uqEWZkvXPRwbjB7bLJYKewUQZFwuQrqZaObH3/0hzI7hUSbrh 8VItHW7IuEEZ2M0rdct0kmoemjd+Y7QUcGWLvLMHFGtu X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx0vbFBv3YnFG7RPeGo6OciFGioHs9R4yg9V4TQLhc5Mt6aaohnWu/puyolrpTcuq0viihRIt7V87wNfQB0gvg= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5e4a:: with SMTP id s71mr4121256ilb.119.1592327703618; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:15:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> <20200616130710.00002909@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616130710.00002909@seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:14:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mZZc5ZLGz4PwM X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:15:05 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jerry wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:44:12 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: > >On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 12:37 PM Jerry wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:51:18 +0200, Polytropon commented: > >> >And instead of employing good programmers, they employ designers > >> >so at least the ad-filled emails look good, even if it doesn't > >> >help anyone. :-) > >> > >> You obviously know very little about the retail market. In sales, > >> perceived quality is often in a direct relationship to the outward > >> appearance of an item. > >> > > > >FreeBSD is not a retail OS!.... in short for many reasons f**k retail > >computing... like I said dead users don't give a flying f how good > >something looks if it kills them! (Just ask anyone who started smoking > >because of how sexy the ad models were before tobacco ads were > >outlawed.).... in sort FreeBSD is a mission critical OS meant for > >professional use (if you use for desktop use like I do then it is > >purely accidental to its primary purpose). > > You reply is totally out of context to the my response to Poly. Neither > Poly nor I referenced FreeBSD in the post. The response was directed at > advertisers and the means they use to convey an idea to the public. Your > problem is that you are looking for problems where none exist, aka > "Tilting at windmills". > Then mark your reply as being off topic because in context it was clearly reference to email etiquette on FreeBSD (that is the subject of the thread after all). It seems you and Chris are doing everything possible to confuse the hell out of the entire thread and then one someone *appears* to reply out of context you use that as some kind of proof of your argument. That is just dirty tactics. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 18:51:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD57E3477DA for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 18:51:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx32.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mcjK5slGz4Wxf for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 18:51:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (localhost [127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A95F14D854 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:51:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.32.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wYriOfA6CwZ5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:50:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (webmail.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 930414D849 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216.185.71.44 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:50:58 -0400 Message-ID: <1fe7a0a35618a8f8746e68219cb7f2ce.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:50:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd From: "James B. Byrne" To: "FreeBSD Mailing List" Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mcjK5slGz4Wxf X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.90 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.185.71.0/26]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[216.185.71.32:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[harte-lyne.ca:+]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.15)[-1.152]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[harte-lyne.ca,quarantine]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12021, ipnet:216.185.64.0/20, country:CA]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.044]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[harte-lyne.ca:s=dkim_hll]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.002]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[harte-lyne.ca:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 18:51:02 -0000 On Tue, June 16, 2020 11:37, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:27 AM Chris Knipe wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 5:18 PM Aryeh Friedman >> wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen. In the interest of protecting the wildlife indigenous to this facility please refrain from feeding the troll. -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 19:01:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E22347A77 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:01:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mcxC3cczz4XkP for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:01:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id r77so23260602ior.3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:01:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=92wowo6eN9IIs+IU0yVliyNNKRUAxtsVdng3Yl4dA74=; b=hMPQffbkpIZjhc1QBxD/T4roBEe3HYe9qFqUf3vrxthOghT5X2Vf2r+osuYBlE2A4u lnHGtCIfWbfLKftUBghHB6m6rutApb5QBh3HcETtJ+0RZrAHuIW0iSHuBvDQwq/CNKGx Gynyo2y76n5BIRIYaTKXM5HyLfw/klJPThaNk5EzVwe0NGWZm3Lw/ee+i9V/tQOMee+s alzGbjY7LwZlkg1r1L3XTCSJA+wAPjMh7u3Ri5NV8I8jYeGNultx8SRNcLD1vzP7T2S1 jA3pDpoXDTJXpFHM4P5WoHz//FoeKymSce4i03USbIocwknQ4rr60O+37ftr0pRtYN6e RxEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=92wowo6eN9IIs+IU0yVliyNNKRUAxtsVdng3Yl4dA74=; b=gsCj7cJol81AiB/myVlPhzJimi0GnFbA6W+mhza+M5GDMJ/8fMM5N4efjVNMo8YKvw DWqFQOkq/IIOo56zjuNhEmIc8RT2OsnQ10eepnd+Z75A7pDy+tTmmNxGTg1JxRb+JQfh FBZohL12a1Ic3KchWR98ppbt6MVMKCB4oiNGg/P8bZngBmo00KvrovT46t+rT2Ii2Jis kAJpxwlde6lE31CLKFIc0+e969cIKxCEzu5M8AgJsTIFs7w8SgfUpODLLAHkUqOeC6+R XhjUr463nzn41pZHPej8WihcKCs2PS2/Y2/o/xWwu6S1Tl6+kGU1BvGaE1V3oop4y4yy QRyw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5338nUox8cdizJA7Is8O/3l/jPxrSlEz0UYiwljcpYupCWeaUH7L XzKcryTRongerWPmi7UV1rBcB56dln8uPMt1Vxk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzIy6TbBx61OzeUu2cSveyaCuRQU8nQfZj73MTAvX+SFWGVf6Wvx8iXNeXkiRwl5uuuRAo5U9DOd80aVU1MYW4= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:1448:: with SMTP id 69mr4071841iou.83.1592334078366; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:01:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1fe7a0a35618a8f8746e68219cb7f2ce.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> In-Reply-To: <1fe7a0a35618a8f8746e68219cb7f2ce.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:01:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mcxC3cczz4XkP X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=hMPQffbk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.82 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.928]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.884]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:01:20 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:51 PM James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, June 16, 2020 11:37, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:27 AM Chris Knipe > wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 5:18 PM Aryeh Friedman < > aryeh.friedman@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > > Ladies and Gentlemen. > > In the interest of protecting the wildlife indigenous to this facility > please > refrain from feeding the troll. > It would be nice if you identified who the troll is (me, the other guy or both of us?).... from your quoting it is not clear at all (lost all context) -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 19:12:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E27B3301F9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:12:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x843.google.com (mail-qt1-x843.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::843]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49md9m2RvRz4Yb8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:12:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x843.google.com with SMTP id u17so16458620qtq.1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:12:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=ksJ0YalicHVrByT9DKpeTxRo/FHOFRhkZsyhF9LeR74=; b=NNWMnuB+ZVRUcSjr/EVtEhMKG0ZgnPhI0sg6j73txzTBPeMEt1n2G0t8by4ZSfuQKY 4OEOeefnU4DN6w07gVPCK1duawmJVyNfjAXfNv9lFJ8LYFwQZY0uUgjHl5aQCsxcfy37 p9pbd2GGjjnXWUCRpdB6FbyCU7moANp465RyE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=ksJ0YalicHVrByT9DKpeTxRo/FHOFRhkZsyhF9LeR74=; b=ugsQvxl5z2SIZGXq/guVZ0zpaHeG9ovKO2pjzxvTZEwYm91HH3A8w/YGECf5EFbnHZ 3SYNryK1BrYmKs77MsEg8MwflM17H7bz/xJ2NKFTQXHkExuVYLaedOgIv2gfQ08vZGv1 //iyApUvVKwoEd6QAzZcOZdqMStkgcOMBJZnTirCVhKazeRC8KsKoqsz2OeRO8GcYJVl 6G4vLLNOZx88E7FAPdFyIE+xxjofO8Uw75QfrAQXweuuJzxFISVhm56WykzY/FFfcHcw kuBry3quU5J9mxJ5A35681ZQT0CqY+GW28PtsEv9iFEa6N2emYtQii+YIFcDdXOLE+Bq rALw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ifcBZmzzCBxTm3DWNjHuVXyITG6L2wWh+gSk7WqVvGl24s51i +JPVSBuniE1Zsu7r4uYbRszgqXHn0vE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzTj2D7MoVBMG7bOlQFX/aFudZtwK3BY1DWwA+SVihtkwYBRMJ2ep7N0cWf+3wFymP1/z06kQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4d03:: with SMTP id w3mr22414213qtv.200.1592334730994; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i40sm17597528qte.67.2020.06.16.12.12.08 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49md9h1fqCz4SPH for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:12:00 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616151200.0000663a@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> <20200616130710.00002909@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/L5iaeKuqK5VN1Wq9e6Dv3Kc"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49md9m2RvRz4Yb8 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=NNWMnuB+; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::843 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.74 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.941]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.986]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.27)[0.267]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::843:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:12:13 -0000 --Sig_/L5iaeKuqK5VN1Wq9e6Dv3Kc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:14:51 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jerry wrote: > >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:44:12 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: =20 >> >On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 12:37 PM Jerry wrote: >> > =20 >> >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:51:18 +0200, Polytropon commented: =20 >> >> >And instead of employing good programmers, they employ designers >> >> >so at least the ad-filled emails look good, even if it doesn't >> >> >help anyone. :-) =20 >> >> >> >> You obviously know very little about the retail market. In sales, >> >> perceived quality is often in a direct relationship to the outward >> >> appearance of an item. >> >> =20 >> > >> >FreeBSD is not a retail OS!.... in short for many reasons f**k >> >retail computing... like I said dead users don't give a flying f >> >how good something looks if it kills them! (Just ask anyone who >> >started smoking because of how sexy the ad models were before >> >tobacco ads were outlawed.).... in sort FreeBSD is a mission >> >critical OS meant for professional use (if you use for desktop use >> >like I do then it is purely accidental to its primary purpose). =20 >> >> You reply is totally out of context to the my response to Poly. >> Neither Poly nor I referenced FreeBSD in the post. The response was >> directed at advertisers and the means they use to convey an idea to >> the public. Your problem is that you are looking for problems where >> none exist, aka "Tilting at windmills". >> =20 > >Then mark your reply as being off topic because in context it was >clearly reference to email etiquette on FreeBSD (that is the subject >of the thread after all). It seems you and Chris are doing >everything possible to confuse the hell out of the entire thread and >then one someone *appears* to reply out of context you use that as >some kind of proof of your argument. That is just dirty tactics. Exactly what is the correlation between email formats and the whether or not FreeBSD is a retail (for profit) entity? --=20 Jerry --Sig_/L5iaeKuqK5VN1Wq9e6Dv3Kc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7pGYAACgkQOHMGOIfe xWTx1AgAsXv7ql5npjoojsIbXfQ/OQ827Kj+OexfkjNenrrXg5KSvQ/ecY6LWbg4 8xQvZjhHwokZAY8yE3eLXkR81hGLIzkXjSPjsCyT8+l3tcRZWWuGnLq0aVbl/rvv u4UqCu/eJwm2FQkm4LcQVLCI3zj1MS0oHYvtwAzxR/NsAI0eeMRuoqADM1i574N9 7okYs4edjRsdmHHVxcEBKi4u/mpS4kZpiw1hBe+MRLTaOnFbNeTfipUQPrMqEa3p 9/XKyIUI+I9rZS3YLui6mQxFXK7aXivA4Qi+ZjLo4Lr/KJPeQB7iiaZ/vtCTn2wR HtEXxEpU0DMpvq9kOD5LxWM40K2Cfw== =nF4S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/L5iaeKuqK5VN1Wq9e6Dv3Kc-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 19:21:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 227E1330C80 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:21:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mdNw5Fkgz4YwV for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:21:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id i25so3013384iog.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:21:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Yo0SsgW5M/H33kpCpR17Z7gLunjLF4EaBFwljguo2Sk=; b=DuYcNVRRGX5dF/qYhyhLnrj5n8W/65qQ2LQCerKElwi6gVTR7a1UvtAE0F03nGrDGt F/z/8w0Lca4FMSUq0/2Pqff7pMIRC4T9SiCTo1Q73f2teleqIjOWTfhB2aN02BPcNa5a OA2cbTn2dCCZgYYHcpkpbsw69aiUnKXs8jbK5hds9RD4tqZiD71GY8f14uFPLOZHOB2u EKywEeYyhTJNNSEK3a0teoykK7OUTemfphtCcpF0ygOUKaaOGr6j2BlQwlXJkVldgLYT ZPUPpU8Zz9Jsnj05dX/oxwSwias3qNZe2ZCoC+sxqazg441GF06Ojkw8sUWflBUn4n9c DfYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Yo0SsgW5M/H33kpCpR17Z7gLunjLF4EaBFwljguo2Sk=; b=bV0nX9uGECkqK/WsL1mAZjOX+s797x1HvzLpauZHSy0zNviEPjwnNX3yHP6XXxG+5h U8stCtTvlVB7AfO/Atd71ICaNvUey8oevPJBIGvaTC1yRB4dZP1t9r81/ZPpWBIWEqJa Z2qp9v8iCfPCkgIQv0vtg5/TaVWaRPgfaH7Do/GA+sXrfQGByrFir3jVnZqIrw5LjjeK ydSEvyEeOW0N2VAnzc208t+V3xUs0UE7Hd2Nh8Uhvc1fYnAqASPHJ7NB6lI9SRX5HHRf q+k5oKLFaqyqEKTz43MOIEdUCWEIqb2va7vyO2G3SPdPeHZcQPTp46/B+xL3AlDsRe8g CBEg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530F4x9brwanj6UqqVVZTHeg4AeLcF9uOzSATq8s/14zUwN1Y91s MIJZWtVLJ8xuZ6EKdbcHmLXfwkxGhdGGWUdDbjE7/Z6W X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwzhKGFxKcbio8EcmzECARKZPs+YhbxYFWdV20VtmqOtZ5rqWg5rAnegrtahE8inUZJSfEpr17w8nrVpBGu0e0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1243:: with SMTP id o3mr4184418iou.89.1592335311242; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:21:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> <20200616130710.00002909@seibercom.net> <20200616151200.0000663a@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616151200.0000663a@seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:21:39 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mdNw5Fkgz4YwV X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLY(-4.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:21:53 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:12 PM Jerry wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:14:51 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: > >On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jerry wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:44:12 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: > >> >On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 12:37 PM Jerry wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:51:18 +0200, Polytropon commented: > >> >> >And instead of employing good programmers, they employ designers > >> >> >so at least the ad-filled emails look good, even if it doesn't > >> >> >help anyone. :-) > >> >> > >> >> You obviously know very little about the retail market. In sales, > >> >> perceived quality is often in a direct relationship to the outward > >> >> appearance of an item. > >> >> > >> > > >> >FreeBSD is not a retail OS!.... in short for many reasons f**k > >> >retail computing... like I said dead users don't give a flying f > >> >how good something looks if it kills them! (Just ask anyone who > >> >started smoking because of how sexy the ad models were before > >> >tobacco ads were outlawed.).... in sort FreeBSD is a mission > >> >critical OS meant for professional use (if you use for desktop use > >> >like I do then it is purely accidental to its primary purpose). > >> > >> You reply is totally out of context to the my response to Poly. > >> Neither Poly nor I referenced FreeBSD in the post. The response was > >> directed at advertisers and the means they use to convey an idea to > >> the public. Your problem is that you are looking for problems where > >> none exist, aka "Tilting at windmills". > >> > > > >Then mark your reply as being off topic because in context it was > >clearly reference to email etiquette on FreeBSD (that is the subject > >of the thread after all). It seems you and Chris are doing > >everything possible to confuse the hell out of the entire thread and > >then one someone *appears* to reply out of context you use that as > >some kind of proof of your argument. That is just dirty tactics. > > Exactly what is the correlation between email formats and the whether or > not FreeBSD is a retail (for profit) entity? > There are a lot of people who want to make FreeBSD a OS that is usable on the desktop by normal everyday non-technical end-users (aka a "retail OS") and the very same people (or a sizable overlap at least) also are the ones who b*tch the most about how plain text email and the stuff that goes along with it is "evil" (or at least for luddites). So in the mind of the people who know FreeBSD is not (and never was meant to be) a retail OS, link the two in our minds. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 19:27:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6414E330AAC for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:27:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200009104ca.c9afb13348bc1f85646989a13cbf51a6@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mdWd3HjMz4ZTX for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:27:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200009104ca.c9afb13348bc1f85646989a13cbf51a6@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592335661; x=1594927661; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=Q9mkV160s6XkjSWWTnuqVnqHsYpSwSAMjdQSnKcAKLI=; b=dKOaksdn1pS9r4JhqkAVSsZO5LPtnvkHCQhKRRRr6WLQX/dDce0PLXwXfwD+cu6XEJGBHMl+kido06PI2fuVvYD5nsOmVBTacL/VG8yGPn46l9K7wL/NTUmBvHJ1fWwM/XHNa51sSKNu60RBbdxV1OkXj0WJpN9YVov8yW+1S0Y= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA5MTA0Y2EuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:27:31 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:27:31 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jlHF3-000CQ7-2C; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:27:29 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:27:28 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616202728.e1929c751c66affce51a9e8a@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <1fe7a0a35618a8f8746e68219cb7f2ce.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> References: <1fe7a0a35618a8f8746e68219cb7f2ce.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mdWd3HjMz4ZTX X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=dKOaksdn; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c200009104ca.c9afb13348bc1f85646989a13cbf51a6@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c200009104ca.c9afb13348bc1f85646989a13cbf51a6@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.28 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.917]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.66)[-0.663]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200009104ca.c9afb13348bc1f85646989a13cbf51a6@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200009104ca.c9afb13348bc1f85646989a13cbf51a6@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:27:42 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:50:58 -0400 "James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions" wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen. > > In the interest of protecting the wildlife indigenous to this facility > please refrain from feeding the troll. ... either directly or indirectly. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 19:27:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541CF33097B for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:27:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mdWy1Bffz4ZM1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:27:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:48 -0700 Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> From: David Christensen Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:48 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mdWy1Bffz4ZM1 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.64 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.83)[0.835]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.96)[0.962]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.94)[0.941]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:27:59 -0000 On 2020-06-16 03:57, Polytropon wrote: > A boot-only solution would not help, and also booting from > DVD or USB is not possible, because it doesn't exist. Do you mean the computer does not have a DVD drive and does not have USB ports? DVD and USB images are available via the page you cited: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/ISO-IMAGES/12.1/FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-dvd1.iso ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/ISO-IMAGES/12.1/FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-memstick.img David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 19:37:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121E9330B7B for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:37:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mdkL1HKxz4Zx0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:36:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M4K6z-1jl0Gw1rHN-000PK9; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:36:51 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:36:51 +0200 From: Polytropon To: David Christensen Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616213651.ba41c212.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:wwoEQxaJCVxoQfr7YJ4bYMUtxa9qqqhQDRiXyz9Au54epbHdXFy nj0fIGJyZ+y/nWE7EnAGB2ujIgjcpBCU7AcgLh59OOOBi5tXO2IjwAH8w3pl3+TMR/i/erY +PWH0pJSHK9IRbQkhQOBWX7fr1IAB14XfYrJWJLSBZn3Vq8eFr9yDXxilQU+lEZ7RzN1pF/ Gc1WkKPjt3aRZ2yRM6+sQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:QPyk2pDvfNk=:M4Jnv91R9PXT0cTZD5A4OD zmhBHkYUzSIiSDkn5FvJT8WEboo7vSJ54tXHNITEv5oXUDUJh/yo586ILTR8vRjpkvecmJfBr Os4cZWMvvDdAy5bPoVLL5xd02pIo6eWvAKKQ/cDubp4Pc3TK5abfvzrK3F9CLVar+AIfGanDp tojL83Bxro5wUXrtngNwjZD1h/tCNXBL5bRdz8ZWMmWyGzfoQbtg8SPWGrrumHjKPGYxiOzKF W68L/cmJjOaA5G5njD9mElgKeQGa7EDct7gLnvl3Ezdrs5GuhVhzkP7HugK3uCZbdLBCcKvfy 0ijHigP8UbpKM4e35IZwiYPaT1iqeBCJ3HylHY6kTI3TqgAE0FyXML9KwALam/dJ5dVbJwsfU Qwc1+76aGJLYKa/MdgQVRP/PAgO5gutfkmbbOKql7iLMkqGsYnDrRn2LgB1Bui/B0zu8kRRkn /7K531HRk3m5NZxP9QU4xGlQvS717Pr6WTHobj0YzqMA74BNXZjLCQk67/0HKuZ/PULEQUOiz bIZgz/x0qRnGGL5sUAuuS9t1ShBm8/j/zz2pEZ3xEFVzsTpZTaPVKW/dnx+mP419Fsu958MIS cVg8B8fGcAwolrTd1kqVrbXR6pDc/DgGwcw4WxMZtWEkHhPjWCUp2qheciCGQRBtfQLaFWhrN c85xn0Ur2q3O0FjWIMscDSDT7cJSSdUqvSNFl/71xmSGHBanwDIglEr6Fh2mej4nBBoyUqbi4 2wqFg2EWF0PQ4tsKVfx7P7TzNZPslOL1swHc5AJIFKpM51bwjcFDVA6ZEoEFrALIb1btWwvEp zpvoFNO7Ai79cXLU2GTLpcra2TdxdyzwYfoTT9mpC/WiCcMMvU= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mdkL1HKxz4Zx0 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.130) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.49 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.09)[-0.090]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.31)[0.312]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.87)[0.867]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:37:00 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:48 -0700, David Christensen wrote: > On 2020-06-16 03:57, Polytropon wrote: > > > A boot-only solution would not help, and also booting from > > DVD or USB is not possible, because it doesn't exist. > > Do you mean the computer does not have a DVD drive and does not have USB > ports? Correct. I could probably exchange the CD drive for a DVD drive (40 pin ATA interface), but it isn't able to boot from USB; there is a PCI card with USB 1.0 ports, but the system cannot boot from that resource (CMOS setup says: CDROM,C:,A:). The system also is not networked (it _could_ maybe boot via PXE on the NIC, but I don't have any PXE server infrastructure set up). So now I learned that the disc1 image is no longer intended for use with CD media, even though at least the i386 image _can_ be burned onto CD, even though by exceeding the standard's rules, it may or may not work... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 19:42:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41CD43311B7 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:42:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c2000091cc21.e8c325b607e1511bc40ef319e2ba8382@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mdrm3Mkvz4bWk for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:42:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c2000091cc21.e8c325b607e1511bc40ef319e2ba8382@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592336552; x=1594928552; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=VjeuSe+vUu+0hgmBRYBPhCY16smqfV980dKYxVI5xNM=; b=APIKLcC0SA+D7e6qGmUTv4eip8BdMqA5RGKHq2u75PVJh3MoC0LIzSCTFkp8f42oL3BpaBzEZm1/34xhUJ8XoTFsuPirwOMDuv12fbad7R39s+emTdcKQBlGE3+U4AsF02Q8Iw/MrSmwg2YjJYa/5N0ZIKeZPX1fPtgs5fujLAQ= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA5MWNjMjEuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:42:22 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:42:22 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jlHTQ-000CSZ-H9; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:42:20 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:42:20 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Polytropon Cc: David Christensen , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616204220.bf46334a81e8d6a58d4e9d84@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200616213651.ba41c212.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616213651.ba41c212.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mdrm3Mkvz4bWk X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=APIKLcC0; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c2000091cc21.e8c325b607e1511bc40ef319e2ba8382@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c2000091cc21.e8c325b607e1511bc40ef319e2ba8382@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.25 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.886]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.013]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.65)[-0.645]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c2000091cc21.e8c325b607e1511bc40ef319e2ba8382@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c2000091cc21.e8c325b607e1511bc40ef319e2ba8382@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:42:33 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:36:51 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > So now I learned that the disc1 image is no longer intended for > use with CD media, even though at least the i386 image _can_ be > burned onto CD, even though by exceeding the standard's rules, > it may or may not work... An old memory surfaced, and a quick check reveals that 800MB CDRs are still available (there are even 900MB ones). A pack of those may solve your problem. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 19:50:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A268F331983 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:50:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mf1z5Knkz4bs3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:50:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:28 -0700 Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616213651.ba41c212.freebsd@edvax.de> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <1da9bbe1-8524-1389-dd0a-692be3bd8b4d@holgerdanske.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:28 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200616213651.ba41c212.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mf1z5Knkz4bs3 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.37 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.81)[0.806]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.90)[0.903]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.77)[0.766]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[184.105.128.27:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:50:32 -0000 On 2020-06-16 12:36, Polytropon wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:48 -0700, David Christensen wrote: >> On 2020-06-16 03:57, Polytropon wrote: >> >>> A boot-only solution would not help, and also booting from >>> DVD or USB is not possible, because it doesn't exist. >> >> Do you mean the computer does not have a DVD drive and does not have USB >> ports? > > Correct. I could probably exchange the CD drive for a DVD drive > (40 pin ATA interface), but it isn't able to boot from USB; there > is a PCI card with USB 1.0 ports, but the system cannot boot from > that resource (CMOS setup says: CDROM,C:,A:). The system also is > not networked (it _could_ maybe boot via PXE on the NIC, but I > don't have any PXE server infrastructure set up). I think it's time for that computer to go to the great data center in the sky (or below the Earth)... But, if you must, what about NetBSD? https://cdn.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-9.0/images/NetBSD-9.0-i386.iso Debian 9? https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/9.12.0/i386/iso-cd/debian-9.12.0-i386-xfce-CD-1.iso David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 19:56:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31AF331B9F for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:56:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mf8Q3kNzz4c8F for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:56:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MpUIW-1j6igN14BA-00pura; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:55:59 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:55:58 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: David Christensen , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616215558.e98ad0da.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616204220.bf46334a81e8d6a58d4e9d84@sohara.org> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616213651.ba41c212.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616204220.bf46334a81e8d6a58d4e9d84@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.20 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.36)[-0.360]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.38)[0.381]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.78)[0.783]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:56:07 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:42:20 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:36:51 +0200 > Polytropon wrote: > > > So now I learned that the disc1 image is no longer intended for > > use with CD media, even though at least the i386 image _can_ be > > burned onto CD, even though by exceeding the standard's rules, > > it may or may not work... > > An old memory surfaced, and a quick check reveals that 800MB CDRs > are still available (there are even 900MB ones). A pack of those may > solve your problem. As I mentioned, with overburning enabled, and without any error during burning, I could fir the image file on a 700 MB medium, but the problem might be the reader which is not tolerant enough to fully work with that nonstandard medium as a result. And: Yes, I know and _have_ at least one 800 MB blank CD, which is obvious because I am a living museum. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 20:02:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972DF332313 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:02:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mfHw2Dz1z4ccm for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:02:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Mnq8Y-1j6AcH1xJy-00pMZO; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 22:02:31 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 22:02:31 +0200 From: Polytropon To: David Christensen Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616220231.145829f5.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <1da9bbe1-8524-1389-dd0a-692be3bd8b4d@holgerdanske.com> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616213651.ba41c212.freebsd@edvax.de> <1da9bbe1-8524-1389-dd0a-692be3bd8b4d@holgerdanske.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:cO2h4GMYAiqUtQwBli01A0EX0VgbgFthoCYYM6x87I0jZdxG4XW jgUQGFpvDjqzXKjYdjFDZ/BxFzXnfd3UoKTWwHSy7rKEjMRuZTXZBoe9AjCQKDQfIIPOXkx /vvB4RW28tv4SBqd8OIkh5jN76z0GZ2Q2h3roKgcAiNvYlAMPFdYRwe/LpUPGzM1EI/iU0i B+opJaGih5vBASYO0yMag== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:1PmMnzYSraw=:aTppvjyw2TO7vKNx5ZUt0Y 8OID5xHIVtxSsHm/HAhw3eSxISH5AeLuI0LRhHwV8miZhYq7fpVVpHgWsD/kxWJ1upxb5WMuT GRqgbZj3sKx6hAGpGWTV4v9OnjzzTFBQDsdSPBtXPOB2G2BlPQIQ2In6UL4ymo6VXTGWBX+oy q7yN3ZaYgITYLzCEGshbm/UqyrbWYWn6RlIrQcCvWLFGEpHr6IvmpON8kPHiDjFu/ZYJtnmwJ v4O9/n3sFInZjyVu9RU6bNxje3MYfw74znQvwSIj+bYwF/+Q6O1vUUmxpVig8I0E70vuMfVnP 3swJupxf9pa36u4EqSahM0t2HwCeuFLP2x9jvyzzpKtG0JhVgz3Nv3XRLkDsM1NLg+860fBzV a1hq5IQe4g+MJDhKA6FS+jwjEYjSADybFrkzhxFfug+zvHfI3KldJhe+QUdLymrj1lwzic89z lMmCXSmy6P/u2ifHIJuBUXkzDX3ypZpur1Vy4NN3aOfKC2tRnt/qOg6nVIcLAf91RQTnwfp/c 6fs2dW1REfdAQAokdRTYjkmVWrsO8xhobN1lBr1LsXewyGj5/rZxb88zYkrXF9PqhhopxduWo UfgfgHFxu51fE2nvBKMI6CAoip6LH9Yi+AmWLAzPLWKAhFoIZsCmrByY/gqTL8QHg+2IU23Vn 087+/jQXZ0iZJH/qx2dYw61FB/PgCqxag0tu4j3ZH6CIBRwb2cDWkUudaRQLeadnlACntUJHw XTMu0ySQHx+rrWeegVjy6/J40PbW3E5X985IKBHZ9pgD+WjZB0Gnm09zpHAR1JtCCa6nDPsQt ByDr8r70wXw3GZMG7rmrG4rSslssHA6mODSS5jeDSlOq7hAchA= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mfHw2Dz1z4ccm X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.130) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.37 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.23)[-0.230]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.31)[0.311]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.88)[0.885]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:02:37 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:28 -0700, David Christensen wrote: > On 2020-06-16 12:36, Polytropon wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:48 -0700, David Christensen wrote: > >> On 2020-06-16 03:57, Polytropon wrote: > >> > >>> A boot-only solution would not help, and also booting from > >>> DVD or USB is not possible, because it doesn't exist. > >> > >> Do you mean the computer does not have a DVD drive and does not have USB > >> ports? > > > > Correct. I could probably exchange the CD drive for a DVD drive > > (40 pin ATA interface), but it isn't able to boot from USB; there > > is a PCI card with USB 1.0 ports, but the system cannot boot from > > that resource (CMOS setup says: CDROM,C:,A:). The system also is > > not networked (it _could_ maybe boot via PXE on the NIC, but I > > don't have any PXE server infrastructure set up). > > > I think it's time for that computer to go to the great data center in > the sky (or below the Earth)... No! Not poor Mr. Coffee! It (he?) was my first FreeBSD PC! It's still a worthy member of the society and be productive for good! :-) > But, if you must, what about NetBSD? > > https://cdn.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-9.0/images/NetBSD-9.0-i386.iso > > > Debian 9? > > https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/9.12.0/i386/iso-cd/debian-9.12.0-i386-xfce-CD-1.iso Might be worth a try, surely interesting. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 20:46:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75A2333914 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:46:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mgGh1Kcfz3RY5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:46:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id l17so20592864qki.9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:46:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=FV7LhsvOmSuKPnLhVdF178mlime1XPkSVJM3GBmRF0A=; b=lOYb01PD+xs/W0FP2Db7ws8xL9r6/Up6kShSB2dBxkqfhBADtFrCG297sjVvXvZs+N 2aeuZajJSvJduxsjtz0o80JhOglCzRg4aTvfO2blf8ZAPFGCamc/Zs2lxwY1YRb2A4Ms mLjob6XjEnvRtC1SZyMwqFo0zFvYYllfjq01g= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=FV7LhsvOmSuKPnLhVdF178mlime1XPkSVJM3GBmRF0A=; b=pLKThzIvAGXSKZ0AHf9JgJfkLeX33qYXly1juKCWdaHx1dLdnztieAwJBf+Y/eb+Tq 3WLClgGObO6IieLhnY4qQoMZp/yVYc9FwLhPfzA/OWEMP6ByNJniGlVqC8Ori/wH5C2/ bQKwp2nYIVe19sGwaM3UPgdRqagX3RuIhJPylvHu0sD9VesIQ/pWhYw+nbsQ307gvASD oifdwPP+iU9Xz8NHYqHibFGE637VH62kNNBzLjMvacBErvXs9cAlzO4EaIdV+6oT01tt A6cP7m9fxz/DZyW/zdIJlxNCKVkZv4iSrXbZV3yF6BYpPn6b3My4d7UTTllfpvvDYTLm tplA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530zqi27icp8z2dVi2AltVqyf8ZlfOSmLz0Kfn9jQyL6j6YDfmA6 D3++QpkuI2Nml/arHViUxg6ks/svkyk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzgXjsucKHofILdYJSNvGdvH+0O9ycNFxbGGWJOkwltQUEXhFPlCxnUaNDlty7QxrXnVv72zQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:9d8:: with SMTP id y24mr21602276qky.274.1592340394832; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 69sm15126242qkh.15.2020.06.16.13.46.18 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mgGJ1xbhz4ST9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:46:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:46:09 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616164609.00004446@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> <20200616130710.00002909@seibercom.net> <20200616151200.0000663a@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/jIFQlr7YNMb08ZQTF_FM_yR"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mgGh1Kcfz3RY5 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=lOYb01PD; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.58 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.91)[-0.913]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.08)[0.083]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:46:37 -0000 --Sig_/jIFQlr7YNMb08ZQTF_FM_yR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:21:39 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >There are a lot of people who want to make FreeBSD a OS that is usable >on the desktop by normal everyday non-technical end-users (aka a >"retail OS") and the very same people (or a sizable overlap at least) >also are the ones who b*tch the most about how plain text email and >the stuff that goes along with it is "evil" (or at least for >luddites). So in the mind of the people who know FreeBSD is not (and >never was meant to be) a retail OS, link the two in our minds. Congratulations! That is one of the best examples I have seen of a "false equivalence fallacy" on this forum in awhile. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/jIFQlr7YNMb08ZQTF_FM_yR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7pL5EACgkQOHMGOIfe xWSjMgf+LYoI46/CsQalDDmxu7e1DeZeQfbO+Yjc9tzOLAwf0aEK6KPIA65IANIs HhdC3U8QNfq0M1OU/cFF1dyBFVG2vprqwi+jLGj+vuKMn3fIqIJqK7GNrNaPeUr3 IWaEsgK8J5qitCWfyInZaHysU+hyT+GtfHx88h0G4gK2ypEb4iunVC2gkQIsRoEL MG1U5ePgxq2EBNxbKSgELT8vwKVqPpHYL4uL8o5kxFTeRv0dC1gpQtewGXEGWfwI uwO36xnUL5QGs+3z8sh6fCQGEGlfvceTeT9u9m6zqH6HeMLkE3tV/ao2tSyvFn7K sSKR7vFPhkZtACimzwpqf6tGCmUQrw== =Twjz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/jIFQlr7YNMb08ZQTF_FM_yR-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 20:51:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D94B333B2D for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:51:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x843.google.com (mail-qt1-x843.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::843]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mgNJ5Ql2z3SFN for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:51:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x843.google.com with SMTP id d27so16721214qtg.4 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:51:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=qLlmdmmnx7enFtq2n8UJLufNpRRGEJz1pYBsJ3KQ/CU=; b=CgE1iMb+uahRcKKWJGWFmIIokghfE8POsh8Kyi+IxQFVVUn3ndNbB87nNtss0CHKuq l00u7l0ryZy6agiig4mLASpb/xh21/iBYtuXuWRkof8tEydTxSIC+6ZTStd80uuBPtc9 IVTdQq1CCa2oyi3JDe/q+jI0ddXGVMay6CUOk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=qLlmdmmnx7enFtq2n8UJLufNpRRGEJz1pYBsJ3KQ/CU=; b=THxaEHTRHZ9gFiBEND0B/LEStyx9UZUK39t4MrV+1YIa1hoEgyiyV7et0+AnbE07DN sV7ecq2TmqWwxcvXQGlIgMau1HQQDPmhqpfvUQDEHC5CogcPxn8RVnB2f3GxOE/s+ATT 8TJNPa7x5TCFpjHu3VZUOVzbJoklasu9fmTgx0Mt8C9jgt89OwdNEJ/9C/Jkvy/Uje0V qRC6JcfuHrVLWXgD5kjcHgyhQzY8oOXzQkWwV26ewa23JtKg4eMIT/IoYpIPzzUERaY+ rNq87yUTIR05lS7Q/cXfdKnhLmVLsg0CDCkoRwPYrtCK7ztuzA+kXDlG7jpP5+eB7/gr asYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530LQ99fr7mZYvbVxi/f2rvtKNgbhASvRwGup4WRPgkhY6B2ZjxK rW7aDO9MIfQllB2qRKS3xHzGh2Ev0UY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxHZed/OfEJc71LdXQd+BOR1Qy3hmk6rpy7UvH4ks/JRxBU4WfndssWDIDsr1BqDdw0ppHTrw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:67d7:: with SMTP id r23mr23913861qtp.110.1592340686521; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m7sm15745988qti.6.2020.06.16.13.51.25 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mgND2NmNz4STH for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:51:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:51:22 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-ID: <20200616165122.00001914@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616220231.145829f5.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616213651.ba41c212.freebsd@edvax.de> <1da9bbe1-8524-1389-dd0a-692be3bd8b4d@holgerdanske.com> <20200616220231.145829f5.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/OkwUFAT0b0OsohHGX7gbK=2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mgNJ5Ql2z3SFN X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=CgE1iMb+; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::843 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.57 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.928]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.09)[0.093]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::843:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 20:51:29 -0000 --Sig_/OkwUFAT0b0OsohHGX7gbK=2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 22:02:31 +0200, Polytropon commented: >On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:28 -0700, David Christensen wrote: >> On 2020-06-16 12:36, Polytropon wrote: =20 >> > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:48 -0700, David Christensen wrote: =20 >> >> On 2020-06-16 03:57, Polytropon wrote: >> >> =20 >> >>> A boot-only solution would not help, and also booting from >> >>> DVD or USB is not possible, because it doesn't exist. =20 >> >> >> >> Do you mean the computer does not have a DVD drive and does not >> >> have USB ports? =20 >> >=20 >> > Correct. I could probably exchange the CD drive for a DVD drive >> > (40 pin ATA interface), but it isn't able to boot from USB; there >> > is a PCI card with USB 1.0 ports, but the system cannot boot from >> > that resource (CMOS setup says: CDROM,C:,A:). The system also is >> > not networked (it _could_ maybe boot via PXE on the NIC, but I >> > don't have any PXE server infrastructure set up). =20 >>=20 >>=20 >> I think it's time for that computer to go to the great data center >> in the sky (or below the Earth)... =20 > >No! Not poor Mr. Coffee! It (he?) was my first FreeBSD PC! >It's still a worthy member of the society and be productive >for good! :-) > > > >> But, if you must, what about NetBSD? >>=20 >> https://cdn.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-9.0/images/NetBSD-9.0-i386.iso >>=20 >>=20 >> Debian 9? >>=20 >> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/9.12.0/i386/iso-cd/debian-9.1= 2.0-i386-xfce-CD-1.iso >> =20 > >Might be worth a try, surely interesting. You still have not explained why you could not just use an external DVD drive. Amazon is selling them as cheap as $24. If you are really cheap, you could just use it once and send it back for a refund. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/OkwUFAT0b0OsohHGX7gbK=2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7pMMoACgkQOHMGOIfe xWTr5QgAxYCisvqUTu2mbpDHl9rOQSplHz1Rw4lFy/Ym9fGbFXzdpCrukGPbIwAB gAWamJIMMu7o09DdFGp+I34yesBNj0vKA61kIuwmocNTF41KhE+10DeHUUajSEy4 ZjTthBwkR41gk80hCkkU4v+snWLZiw5ehFRtY8FR5rhO8sliOXEWi6UxF0YDt3EX muOLyHJit4ytcISQwofoUKNX3tOXiaAQxIK5pA8pgcJLQBIh2rDWfOOh8jHhLrQQ eUGw8wqsshv8Jy3Etm8jnQu4LU7PZipga07YptPPlZTZ5/unelfjP5lvHTVh6J+Y +2WDBg/TLrnnZ6u8jWs4WG1GRjquvA== =5yzs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/OkwUFAT0b0OsohHGX7gbK=2-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 21:01:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87162334229 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:01:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mgc91bksz3T51 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:01:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id a13so3355985ilh.3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:01:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hPGXnuIol48f12GqZmAznv8PMu+gaqGl/ypBiWIfT1Q=; b=dcT3KEW3hoUKV9zVc/nAr6CnSbMfz2Kbn082mAHII3R14muegMZ0JVOw4d6fuvSN0U sH047jIHamPGcb7ButWzEgRWEW/XIOYU9Um3x43xmIyehrGwYefNDM6Yx1z4Pgk+BZcv vBDci0tQexzUZBfudf+MklibRdFKkkT93ibCRHf2mUJN04Dg4x2m8H6bGBoajEIXYXHy ZEjeCf2wpTX+I4kPMxQsLRWFjx4HdaTffO4iIGeaC3qwvuOLxjP8xuTJSxztk7xxE+Kt 614eC9TKi682M0JMVls8MOQJmM72hA9cpVSRxuk8eiZyE827F8N+u6VlGE8vx4wGqCFc 9yyg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=hPGXnuIol48f12GqZmAznv8PMu+gaqGl/ypBiWIfT1Q=; b=sIMac4zgSY+dwpxDubpb4r8aJIShwky5B+cu4uie01kP5yefwH32l9u2G13O57jD42 X+wFSbHE5NzCMXqDZlqWCxSc1idpoD8nJ97Y6no2Xb7AdMteWCW33BRZkzOtfENJODpu tnA+O+doRwg1B4EFYmgsNWcv1776JlccSveeYmm6kZCIoy4OJl0z7s9HXdqSGLE8vcMx IjPe/7RoFson3r2D9qDEFfD1SdL5WcozXS66fO/Scj5KGu9r/f8GSTnd2Zs74VZ9fDI1 6TA4EmuSf3fW/fBCDG0VMWpr9cO+PuJYltLYkU/nn8d9BUnVl4sYv2XsPrPdn1BhyLik r4Kw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530H/LU2UxMd+qD6kezhiO4zgfLIpI2B0iosPskV5+w5AatZss/D CiQi6aeRNa/sEXhTi0Z6SHEI2dMMvhmTe8YlmuC5/eSd X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyrZt7mHQxYc3lbgFxs6VNJqTb3nFh4MXk5wD4HJq4QVzD40dDfUXjdr0I98tSVNxlaBnM4fMyFcpGsiwih8Ys= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d343:: with SMTP id a3mr5059535ilh.29.1592341303856; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:01:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> <20200616130710.00002909@seibercom.net> <20200616151200.0000663a@seibercom.net> <20200616164609.00004446@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616164609.00004446@seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:01:32 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mgc91bksz3T51 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:01:45 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:46 PM Jerry wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:21:39 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: > >There are a lot of people who want to make FreeBSD a OS that is usable > >on the desktop by normal everyday non-technical end-users (aka a > >"retail OS") and the very same people (or a sizable overlap at least) > >also are the ones who b*tch the most about how plain text email and > >the stuff that goes along with it is "evil" (or at least for > >luddites). So in the mind of the people who know FreeBSD is not (and > >never was meant to be) a retail OS, link the two in our minds. > > Congratulations! That is one of the best examples I have seen of a > "false equivalence fallacy" on this forum in awhile. > I think you're the one that should be congratulated for purposely being a jerk (you and Chris have found every way possible to twist everyone's words around to mean what you want them to mean). If you want a false equivalency how about this for a very good one complaining about how your MUA formats *OTHER* people's mail. Be gone troll. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 21:02:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB775334121 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:02:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200009787ea.e18b78e181067577d679b4b2bd97e655@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mgcX2NScz3Slv for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:02:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200009787ea.e18b78e181067577d679b4b2bd97e655@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592341324; x=1594933324; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=5J27DNOeOwiSIyeb0rPi84jtZttxZAcqS3JfVOJU1JY=; b=h9Ehqrcnxz+Rglq8KrxE7BmqM12erTtEK3JKEYcps/O8Draqm5HpBgYzIEJc5bVca8BqxI5UDp9dY2oHGgpgErCoAinMT2MtwmPHyxX3dTUEKE6qmWjmulnLSxvUSyf3NxMP8Hf19NJ/fpGs+UFXOd7l7WFN+LtUerrvQxUyylA= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA5Nzg3ZWEuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.h.in.socketlabs.com (r3.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.13]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:01:54 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:01:53 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jlIiO-000ChW-44; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 22:01:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 22:01:51 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Jerry Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616220151.7de6f40d53ac2b5ad23706a6@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200616165122.00001914@seibercom.net> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616213651.ba41c212.freebsd@edvax.de> <1da9bbe1-8524-1389-dd0a-692be3bd8b4d@holgerdanske.com> <20200616220231.145829f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616165122.00001914@seibercom.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mgcX2NScz3Slv X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:02:04 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:51:22 -0400 Jerry wrote: > You still have not explained why you could not just use an external DVD > drive. Amazon is selling them as cheap as $24. If you are really cheap, > you could just use it once and send it back for a refund. If the machine won't boot from a USB stick why would it boot from a USB DVD drive ? Polytropon - it's looking like your only reasonable option is to go hacking and make your own release CD with something removed - man release and keep going :) -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 21:02:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A103344FC for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:02:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mgcv0rcQz3Spt for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:02:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MHG4W-1jgqkP1kIa-00DDbL for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 23:02:21 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 23:02:21 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616230221.fac8a60d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616165122.00001914@seibercom.net> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616213651.ba41c212.freebsd@edvax.de> <1da9bbe1-8524-1389-dd0a-692be3bd8b4d@holgerdanske.com> <20200616220231.145829f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616165122.00001914@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:V8KVxyBYAThR23fRiCiceuEMVr6U9Ktae4BcwSCggRj8OmcJ2k1 ER0j4eotr+XkPXBM2A8uuYUVmmi7nLzJKbMdUTFbeO/dMIwNosn9eHjqe5TJHRcAHC1Olyy br6kkH0o8oTc9cJSNAsyrG+5iIQNheC1BGE7lLkIFSxOUKb7HtSTWuOD7T19UiassdcDVHV t+VNDPBXCG1CtGGAt5kjw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:mBuPAFPTS/A=:9FJMJRZdWkxBmHNlCvsDXD b9unSiX51DtFi8izeWQOGohHDIOkuA7ENnAqFL16a89t/RXfeXh7DLYAlUoHZKi5zACu92i+L D9Zx8zts+8FbbAA4ypldoqi1aIki9F4HpSiGrzBJYx6S+GdUoqIwYPxh3/zyOvRlz3vmv1cDY njXYxQ36QC6j7/P/81pOhTLwjrOBe+25ve5cWFNmReyur1D0I128poveRG6T6WKEwnGWLSK2A w5Kg1h46EuzPGp7lA2hznHZ2Whlh7oDhovLN94bRRNBFgZ6fHJdDbhm1CHNthOsDH8m1T1AvN s4dTmiDiQq9CnOTSp8SWWbigLsWLopdFZn5kudfBw9vt4DLZ6neK/LMBQ8nu0UI+rBR8EcOx3 2aSZKZ5+h9bCtUHOscmvS1nvOvuVhaVgRHvz1RCmIqLMyRmAD6aVyFmTv3kNXhUFbV3Vl9hhG RPHGRQyk1ELv/0U8xAQhSkvng/mP1U1++jGrRriloTDgSG13c1wKHn5fdvYRuxWXoChRyKZhR 9Hn6f1uXIe/DTpalJl97yUnOttwAzNhv5vEkQ80aqHnQLd5Y3F3bDJLBjiFU1/NcHgES0wmuI 7ni94h8WRuLTInIdeoA2MA9iflRl9U0pKGRQQ6QMx1ssG9zjZc5J/XzCaYehRFecskeUv3+3b s1wXL9jFHs6PFyfKdtdOcB8YCqla5/xMdkND6J1dcm7t2enQ1Q+sn5VVyPkUimnwSuHvFMAG2 miic17M0zIcRfb2G0ICcrIUqv5S24rc2O+p5ux3WG3h3tXFXeoOW4s98ys622OH++W88O7WKa 8GByy26lh2jl+uPfAnswYRW9mdgsJ2UtEo8TMXK8IyfmqDqDk8= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mgcv0rcQz3Spt X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:02:23 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:51:22 -0400, Jerry wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 22:02:31 +0200, Polytropon commented: > >On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:28 -0700, David Christensen wrote: > >> On 2020-06-16 12:36, Polytropon wrote: > >> > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:48 -0700, David Christensen wrote: > >> >> On 2020-06-16 03:57, Polytropon wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> A boot-only solution would not help, and also booting from > >> >>> DVD or USB is not possible, because it doesn't exist. > >> >> > >> >> Do you mean the computer does not have a DVD drive and does not > >> >> have USB ports? > >> > > >> > Correct. I could probably exchange the CD drive for a DVD drive > >> > (40 pin ATA interface), but it isn't able to boot from USB; there > >> > is a PCI card with USB 1.0 ports, but the system cannot boot from > >> > that resource (CMOS setup says: CDROM,C:,A:). The system also is > >> > not networked (it _could_ maybe boot via PXE on the NIC, but I > >> > don't have any PXE server infrastructure set up). > >> [...] > You still have not explained why you could not just use an external DVD > drive. I thought I made that clear; see the above paragraph, assuming "external" means USB. :-) > Amazon is selling them as cheap as $24. If you are really cheap, > you could just use it once and send it back for a refund. The PCI card in that machine only has USB 1.0 connectors, and it is not possible to boot (!) from anything attached there. In worst case, I have access to an external USB DVD drive, if I needed, but it wouldn't solve the problem. In such a case, it would be possible to boot from a regular USB stick, but as mentioned, it doesn't boot from any USB at all. Furthermore, even though that card is installed, I didn't test it yet for FreeBSD support (I only see it in the POST status screen where the PCI expansion cards are listed). However, I'm sure I have a DVD drive I could put into the machine in place of the CD drive; such a drive does exist around here somewhere, so I could use an installation DVD (where the "dvd1" image file fits the standard medium). -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 21:04:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD1233463E for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:04:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.107.128.30]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49mgg42CFJz3TQt for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:04:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [198.74.231.63]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4704B60DB0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:04:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (doug@localhost.watson.org [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 05GL4EwU001295 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:04:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by fledge.watson.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 05GL4ErU001292 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:04:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:04:14 -0400 (EDT) From: doug Reply-To: doug@safeport.com cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: FreeBSD on the desktop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> <20200616130710.00002909@seibercom.net> <20200616151200.0000663a@seibercom.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mgg42CFJz3TQt X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of doug@fledge.watson.org has no SPF policy when checking 204.107.128.30) smtp.mailfrom=doug@fledge.watson.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.03 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[doug@safeport.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(1.00)[0.998]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_DOM_NEQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[watson.org]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.06)[1.059]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.97)[0.970]; MISSING_TO(2.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11288, ipnet:204.107.128.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:04:17 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > There are a lot of people who want to make FreeBSD a OS that is usable on > the desktop by normal everyday non-technical end-users (aka a "retail OS") > and the very same people (or a sizable overlap at least) also are the ones That is a not the goal (I believe) and certainly not my reason for wanting it to be easier to run FreeBSD as a desktop. I want to attract or at least not discourage people who want to become kernel developers, port maintainers, etc. I want (as a FreeBSD advocate) to attract these people in middle school. I believe not to do this will eventually lead to FreeBSD only being used by Netflix or the like and it's downhill from there (IMO). For those who disagree you are, as far as I can tell, are in good company (ie. most of the core team). There is some indication that this is not far fetched. E.g., pair.com and petitecloud.org that address their products to Linux, not any of the BSDs. There are a couple of projects that offer this. I do not know enough to know if there is a "best" one of these or not. The people I think we need to attract would be more likely to say, I do not use Ubuntu or FreeBSD-desktopx, I got stable running on my {fill-in-the-blank} and it rocks. But they likely would use an "easy-entry" thing as a first step. These are the ones that will eventually totally write a working wifi port because eventually they will want to do some serious stuff and all of the workarounds will be just annoying. Just my thoughts YMMV. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 21:07:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B373347A0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:07:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dvoich@aim.com) Received: from sonic317-27.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic317-27.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.129.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mgkj68Clz3TS5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:07:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dvoich@aim.com) X-YMail-OSG: j7HvTtQVM1m9p8EKYMzWsx8V6OUhQzmjRVDRemZ10oLDxrwTDgB3mb3CTr6aDIM wtO1U_T2FhzLlWTTunARyA5YmxOl7jiLNcLQyPvtdsWMHB4OWaOllcltjCZX3RZE4BmKWph9GlUY xk8c97mYhX4uba3GA.Xyz9ZZYgmbpYRvvUrEvf0YKLGb1JEM1bQWHPrT66JOeijGDArQJKySu24z 21kR.4dlbR9.Krjvuq2Ic_Hp.zuwm5RsrafZWb2aWLOzWIYdASGl6JK0V0GkTHPnNElatdB_lRls l6HEqenJOgfrxXazbz0VJ1jK7B.hjDI6DaUmC3mkElCR9i2BtJuc17Ynsp8bSBvIO8.Ftb7EyfQA xMP6GIOfZTNQNYSRHJkt3ea7IUp1yGwOiUFiNgqM75SwSOW6UKVchUnDN0shpgFdIzGMXQZ9Jq.Q mLDFw9rv80nlMF4MQomAyeJHPPGUTwRarQ3qiahx5r7UlIdZLnUJXsSbve5k2zJ89XwxGui9uOGK YAvRmcXyt69EYF7Gx3_LU5C3FvZUrhCg2M7qWJtzw9yZMDEwtdWfVt.N499sth_S7M2brRYFuHoU Q4_gjYLEcq9iIkr4qhdJimT_bg0m8Rh9onZd6Bzu7Os7adoRoseFTCjp66bqzeJnAcJsVSXQt4rN eJMcl.uGyyW1TjGo1X5ZSUTa2eWPBTM9UFDC.IfDRt_tW.Mwq2bzpRVYNLwfMAAz2bobd2s4yHF6 MnIiMB6qsNdOxJ16c6htjrqgZK.jtxm4j50jVxvsDXOLvR5Mq8mSw6AEKUK..2.FMNDAa3kH.ZoL h9XWi39cfTOPBL0krWRSPzF3U_fOJYCfy0KrGkkk97_ozQ5ewSLf__mpO6.Eq_TSdMrk2uHPYASE YDiz_aLvRzMUWmjlxcTzXRNaukwz534mDotelSk_yKgRWBr3vBDx1F0KmJYJzeXjK4kYXCBKoDda iHbNePUk5EB_wCt7mPqg_3iOpPDlpWbbEkqS8.gcQXlSigbFMxp.WiiRTtTp16HlUKcg- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic317.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:07:24 +0000 Received: by smtp412.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 9d9fa753b78d48b15fc6c49d74e6f540; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:07:19 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:07:19 -0400 From: "Vlad D. Markov" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616170719.57ee5938f9fdddc91c40f823@aim.com> In-Reply-To: <20200616165122.00001914@seibercom.net> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616213651.ba41c212.freebsd@edvax.de> <1da9bbe1-8524-1389-dd0a-692be3bd8b4d@holgerdanske.com> <20200616220231.145829f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616165122.00001914@seibercom.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mgkj68Clz3TS5 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:26101, ipnet:74.6.128.0/21, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:07:26 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:51:22 -0400 Jerry wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 22:02:31 +0200, Polytropon commented: > >On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:28 -0700, David Christensen wrote: > >> On 2020-06-16 12:36, Polytropon wrote: > >> > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:48 -0700, David Christensen wrote: > >> >> On 2020-06-16 03:57, Polytropon wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> A boot-only solution would not help, and also booting from > >> >>> DVD or USB is not possible, because it doesn't exist. > >> >> > >> >> Do you mean the computer does not have a DVD drive and does not > >> >> have USB ports? > >> > > >> > Correct. I could probably exchange the CD drive for a DVD drive > >> > (40 pin ATA interface), but it isn't able to boot from USB; there > >> > is a PCI card with USB 1.0 ports, but the system cannot boot from > >> > that resource (CMOS setup says: CDROM,C:,A:). The system also is > >> > not networked (it _could_ maybe boot via PXE on the NIC, but I > >> > don't have any PXE server infrastructure set up). > >> > >> > >> I think it's time for that computer to go to the great data center > >> in the sky (or below the Earth)... > > > >No! Not poor Mr. Coffee! It (he?) was my first FreeBSD PC! > >It's still a worthy member of the society and be productive > >for good! :-) > > > > > > > >> But, if you must, what about NetBSD? > >> > >> https://cdn.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-9.0/images/NetBSD-9.0-i386.iso > >> > >> > >> Debian 9? > >> > >> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/9.12.0/i386/iso-cd/debian-9.12.0-i386-xfce-CD-1.iso > >> > > > >Might be worth a try, surely interesting. > > You still have not explained why you could not just use an external DVD > drive. Amazon is selling them as cheap as $24. If you are really cheap, > you could just use it once and send it back for a refund. > > -- > Jerry How about booting off of PLOP on a CD, then booting off the USB on the PCI card to install freeBSD. (https://www.plop.at/en/bootmanager/full.html). Vlad From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 21:18:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDEED334C50 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:18:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mgzR12Ydz3VBD for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:18:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id w18so207006iom.5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:18:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jbseP/xDPSib/3raQr+Pf3mjYzCACnZwyrGfLF8T7GU=; b=hxxOFBSbPZjwGsPNLJ+6JCm3b88P/RQSs+6ZGxBcLfmzx/qXLi+Wm8eXOdCCpm90XZ Y4cCKvMRbTmdkJ9b7mXJ/B1Nzky/o1718QXlwqEp5vXlA/UuaLYy8JhrGc0AcaqgRlTQ XKJIaCKevP6RtoKzd8VtGB8GwUjjZSxAMSpi3IrLd9FKPS5OKSlT5XavaMedS+Afw5wt 1Fcqe9oZj3Yyfxx8/ru8i2AykbW410OStIEFNjf2ls492jj5Vwxj9qDnyW1Mnc/uuF62 CWOYiBZAJY2WfWAIfrfMC5IesPP/zAi7NNF/abPXoNKRbPmG2sMk7BuDonyN6fUzuOMW eGow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jbseP/xDPSib/3raQr+Pf3mjYzCACnZwyrGfLF8T7GU=; b=QhcvqzfCspHTjWfTnxvjlvZR3HIvZbrq+DMM+IVJeUkQIC5hhDy5xtz7ob82Hbx7JI CSljnr09gSMVIBw42B9brdYlzx+ocvXvaBfqJtVvsltTH4m0zIXDJqmAqLkjlTlE2AtQ IYH5iCG1ZNIBAUpiB/crdr4L4rjg/pHuOCfimLqZlwSXD1nLANgG6ysUhtfrTO3+e5+O XFtv4uq6gyW47LI0tZE7I6dDYq3vfdH5rbWxnLM9JWq8GM5M8C/uTWchRlwGgeCX1e56 Vpv9Ocs9dDOU0NdbCC6cE+FTKb5GJCV/u1s9+clqydfyNMGJ/5ZizyU5SY7qLITdUYD2 sBSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532/ZFxIp/zbLDVKn/pi1rSAe7PwxUOkThMZyjiheJ4zGIUNzk/c /uMZmjiTUP/+bPmuWWbGm4o+RwNQKEcOIWr1W8yT/P5t X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwHQhJtGDP6DUi2y+RHK2NTZCYGU3LbRWeo1u/2S88TfwfRzcMxWr+T45wZXmnMG+RmjhTTGymAyF/ebRqO/zw= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8e19:: with SMTP id e25mr5250445iod.36.1592342306138; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:18:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> <20200616130710.00002909@seibercom.net> <20200616151200.0000663a@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:18:15 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop To: doug@safeport.com Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mgzR12Ydz3VBD X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=hxxOFBSb; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.33 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.929]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.40)[-0.399]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:18:27 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 5:04 PM doug wrote: > > fetched. E.g., pair.com and petitecloud.org that address their products to > Linux, not any of the BSDs. > > Where on Earth did you get the idea that PetiteCloud was primarily targeting Linux?!??!!? (See my signature for my qualifications to know what it was intended for!). I wrote PetiteCloud on FreeBSD, for FreeBSD and used bhyve as the primary hypervisor. The linux stuff was 1) to show the flexibility it had and 2) attempt to widen the audience to people who think FreeBSD is some kind of poor step child to Linux (if anything Linsucks is the poor step child to FreeBSD and the other BSD's). If you really want to know more see the interview I did in BSDMag (Dec. 2016) on the matter. BTW I am also a port maintainer and the largest headache in that regard is fixing weird and pointless assumptions made by Linux developers (even if their overall idea is great). For example redefining the entire macro set for Bison and making it incompatible with newer versions of Bison (spent 2 weeks so far fixing this on devel/aegis and still not done, not even sure how recursive the rabbit hole is). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 21:31:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D9A3356ED for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:31:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2d.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mhFx0Fqmz3WVw for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:31:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2d.google.com with SMTP id g11so57429qvs.2 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:31:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=+xG0FNUuexz++wfBThFks1FcQ42QlX5AhAvSOc0Ld+k=; b=PLfvKlaGw4YiTavV5lygkcEBd7VG+mQky2jIS8vhRwz6oRjfERkUzl+whUK6lGnHkE R92yTMNJFb+4V72FF9SyKHmWFQxrN+K+4bh3xw8idVPev9FkdV3LrP+btMt8HlpEZsZU 27f6fDf/cVknWywV5B0YyoDhKrSzJ33s/cbKQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=+xG0FNUuexz++wfBThFks1FcQ42QlX5AhAvSOc0Ld+k=; b=c0/L9S3bEeWhMpnUpddeDSXgiFGmzoRNgROZ5QiZWsbhYJb/Ws32+XzB5xj1X8QUKk 65lJjs6MaSv4vjyHrqMm14jDPfqb3GtqIGnwVAQ3YL+WRNnc4YvPOx1K296nwBvZfWzu R4wZMPcJnGTILoNUmqnt5sD1exsB1liIL9CASDQ5OLsI/2zPralCSy0PzjKuqOJqfE/Q b4H9B4gsXaZepZHPyKTju3+qfDs6NdT/ePAQUE8wFxmSQU4IvryaUSScG4B0HAlH5bJI GAdDTFJLHbdlk76ZgJQZc7RpYK74B8i/NGszRYBKedk1xQnctRQKTnunZLBDJG2Lh3Rq wTHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5322/P1FBNXYxaNu9uQyzLVp2+4s7VujZUKP21BzreBaOX456vuK 5BWBhqEZB321IZcTkEDFcMbjJzQjFWY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9cu+GSgsTHlyOUlCpFuEl0CusygDdDY/y6N31ec/284gWrHyi2Gp9AWFPdcOM8j/lPe7G7Q== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4a26:: with SMTP id n6mr4549663qvz.176.1592343059680; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d17sm15137111qke.101.2020.06.16.14.30.58 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mhFs4kRxz4SVS for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:30:49 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616173049.00002bbf@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <20200616170906.9c0bb6c7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616175118.2d536f55.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616123659.000025a6@seibercom.net> <20200616130710.00002909@seibercom.net> <20200616151200.0000663a@seibercom.net> <20200616164609.00004446@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/.nc64IqTo7_vmBHlF5XNlY/"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mhFx0Fqmz3WVw X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=PLfvKlaG; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.57 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.939]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.10)[0.099]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2d:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:31:02 -0000 --Sig_/.nc64IqTo7_vmBHlF5XNlY/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 17:01:32 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:46 PM Jerry wrote: > >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:21:39 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: =20 >> >There are a lot of people who want to make FreeBSD a OS that is >> >usable on the desktop by normal everyday non-technical end-users >> >(aka a "retail OS") and the very same people (or a sizable overlap >> >at least) also are the ones who b*tch the most about how plain text >> >email and the stuff that goes along with it is "evil" (or at least >> >for luddites). So in the mind of the people who know FreeBSD is >> >not (and never was meant to be) a retail OS, link the two in our >> >minds. =20 >> >> Congratulations! That is one of the best examples I have seen of a >> "false equivalence fallacy" on this forum in awhile. >> =20 > >I think you're the one that should be congratulated for purposely >being a jerk (you and Chris have found every way possible to twist >everyone's words around to mean what you want them to mean). If you >want a false equivalency how about this for a very good one >complaining about how your MUA formats *OTHER* people's mail. Be gone >troll. 1) That sound suspiciously like a 'straw man argument'. 2) When did I infer my MUA formats 'OTHER' peoples mail? Even if it did, that would not be the sender's fault. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/.nc64IqTo7_vmBHlF5XNlY/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7pOgkACgkQOHMGOIfe xWSJPQf9F6PLlmVC7U104sM2IA1txK8yWHvkbKKNw8iSHbTwQfH5JOScITSW1Hsf sQR0wJ1mg7MRKjIIBz+a/rN03B/Itcy7HxvE9SQKgeVklzSND3HlKUTelA0zii5X Vkxbwq2rcK4VyPpccZcPZ8sOVG6ixpHY9tDuvXMyP8tBh/JHj/UvnI5kpPCulKcF 7tninm3rduJdvIqY+PP/mU3VjkR4bhaDxEtpMAFqQUdL+XVI8JCeXwJt5dNIkpgx eNvwLBvBzcwxy2qRPXvguJQbgOjtlPT4NCtoCSBhGwQTOKvOR5AhaQisAjciQji+ P4TgnteYCv+ET+kg1FPNf6im6a/q8g== =AKRg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/.nc64IqTo7_vmBHlF5XNlY/-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 01:17:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AE433C4A8 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 01:17:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: from pb-smtp1.pobox.com (pb-smtp1.pobox.com [64.147.108.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mnGh5LZdz43g3 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 01:17:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: from pb-smtp1.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC01E6B689 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:16:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=mime-version :references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; s=sasl; bh=+FeUiiutcwfw/d6fvyLVTyqX5gY=; b=xVvKTY ECl89RsonoBiGcG9a4mPFlSuIrXDpNbZY4FKl84s3frVFeQ0DMTN5zPOjwmRcMC4 3N6iGZGILS1zjSmIQI23FIAga8d6xSOeRfRx1kcLQirUMhpoAZ+jUvRmHC3xQjrB QUkAnMjG3pLwmgO6Ewv9hdF2DqTVrJ4Q+BsXc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=pobox.com; h=mime-version :references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; q=dns; s=sasl; b=CaKrqHK/aqeS8Ugj8s3P9HJNaXrUdM2t 54CkaYQx7eahpiyufkGI+4HGy/HhqN4+N2bflqqEHly7hqjcAMY7EV1WE+xAWLyv XIjbGl+2nWqrrgS5g3PySL6LouGn9AuFwgcOOgRdeRFzQbjP4ApCfMFk2DEUcEOW LYEno/SAbpU= Received: from pb-smtp1.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3DB46B687 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:16:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: from mail-il1-f173.google.com (unknown [209.85.166.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-smtp1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 44B936B686 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:16:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: by mail-il1-f173.google.com with SMTP id p5so497610ile.6 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 18:16:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531dGZNiSB3uMHjMn+Vrg3GVNMJB4GX+p3Ju6oC97H7YeurnP1nD YMyIeIX55eXwBXmmt4FhfqbuXrw1sB9UsUz1k58= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwVq2zp4struLyJpGL0MRYG1mJj0HeB26/qepOee37UGh9SoS1PyawRZ1HkoNa8j8sw3VLKRzbP9/vEwO7R8zg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:50c:: with SMTP id d12mr6041598ils.140.1592356618672; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 18:16:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> From: Wesley Peng Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 09:16:47 +0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 3DFF1510-B038-11EA-A841-C28CBED8090B-60148086!pb-smtp1.pobox.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mnGh5LZdz43g3 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.108.0/24, country:US] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 01:17:01 -0000 Hello For mailing lists posting and reading, what MUA should be used by your suggestion? Thunderbird, Evolution, Gmail? And, what MUA should not be used for this purpose, Such as Outlook? I expect that a guide. Thanks. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 03:33:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA77C340F50 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 03:33:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from malaizhichun@tom.com) Received: from smtp.tom.com (smtprz15.163.net [106.3.154.248]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.163.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mrJF6wWhz4Cf3 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 03:33:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from malaizhichun@tom.com) Received: from my-app01.tom.com (my-app01.tom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freemail01.tom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C884D017D for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from my-app01.tom.com (HELO smtp.tom.com) ([127.0.0.1]) by my-app01 (TOM SMTP Server) with SMTP ID 2035768718 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from antispam1.tom.com (unknown [172.25.16.55]) by freemail01.tom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64F9B4D0174 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800 (CST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=tom.com; s=201807; t=1592364806; bh=NF7hY6kUB10CG+QOoQUpPeLgf5MlHLV5PxYcmJE2ZTI=; h=Subject:From:Reply-To:To:Date:From; b=EbF2Gk1B9v9GJWsvpQ478tdorWBn33waHMv1VVj+Mc9l3/a37s7UBiuHnA1WYJ8Q8 DKvTH8EFdeNY8ICfd82UqKucdHhj6FxOvwoNC5SV6o9ZPEApyhQWpb2jofaIgGRJxS KHvtQQKqkAI5BTZDqR8JnHtmumViBKbn20uik/4M= Received: from antispam1.tom.com (antispam1.tom.com [127.0.0.1]) by antispam1.tom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B66100146B for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at antispam1.tom.com Received: from antispam1.tom.com ([127.0.0.1]) by antispam1.tom.com (antispam1.tom.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rTvzazUBYytF for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800 (CST) Received: from legion (unknown [124.164.187.153]) by antispam1.tom.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5EA8A10013AD for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> Subject: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? From: kindu smith Reply-To: malaizhichun@tom.com To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800 Organization: malaizhichun Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.36.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mrJF6wWhz4Cf3 X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tom.com header.s=201807 header.b=EbF2Gk1B; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=tom.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of malaizhichun@tom.com designates 106.3.154.248 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=malaizhichun@tom.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.21 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[malaizhichun@tom.com]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[tom.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:106.3.154.0/24]; RBL_MAILSPIKE_WORST(2.00)[106.3.154.248:from]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tom.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[tom.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:4808, ipnet:106.3.152.0/21, country:CN]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[tom.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[124.164.187.153:received]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[tom.com:s=201807]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[tom.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.27)[0.266]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[tom.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.04)[1.038]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.90)[0.905]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[106.3.154.248:from]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 03:33:37 -0000 Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? The structure of FreeBSD is very good, such as the startup and directory structure, and the user island program. The only shortcoming is poor hardware support. This is mainly due to the lack of drivers provided by the kernel. The Linux kernel is assisted by developers around the world. Changing to the Linux kernel can make up for this shortcoming. For the system architecture, package management pkg, and user island programs can still use the original FreeBSD. Among the unix-like systems, the most popular except macos is ubuntu. This does not mean that ubuntu is good enough. It is still very poor compared to archlinux and other distros. But it is still the most popular because it takes a road from users, servers, to the cloud. That is to first increase the user's utilization rate, then increase the popularity, and then seek the popularity of the server and cloud fields. I think the reason why FreeBSD has reduced the number of users is because it does not take care of the experience of ordinary users, and it takes the opposite path from a server, cloud to users. Positioning such an excellent operating system as just server usage has greatly reduced its popularity. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 04:09:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E07341871 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 04:09:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: from pb-smtp1.pobox.com (pb-smtp1.pobox.com [64.147.108.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ms5w5x4xz4DhS for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 04:09:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: from pb-smtp1.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB186DFBE for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 00:09:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=mime-version :references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; s=sasl; bh=+0/RlEFuWSskvzBFbxRngTfh/ro=; b=vAyS5e RPp65dZF9YORJxbn0wZfJJuLIzK5bIvzwuOfall5R2F31bdcirC7UX4aKQkKiql0 WS5sG/aWKMwlZqD8zEOA2ScA+vohxUae2lMDHsgitjN08++JRbBI+oCrL5mh3Pro M3w1DCJczE+lacsWlVR8Tjazuqpbgt48b4JZs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=pobox.com; h=mime-version :references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; q=dns; s=sasl; b=iN8PhCX5gxYSDfNKgiKVKgbrpMav4RDy HILwUvOmt059R5EOaeKTKfjfJNHn+X/FCtlLNKAG1MZsUgG8zmLYZXIS4xWJpAmG lshkuTx8yOAWSbxEHNEwU6pFS89I2KZCWRRvn+vnjWtzZGOOgr1hmftBd8bgu9WC svzS3l57GQY= Received: from pb-smtp1.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D376DFBC for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 00:09:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: from mail-il1-f181.google.com (unknown [209.85.166.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-smtp1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A6ED46DFBA for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 00:09:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: by mail-il1-f181.google.com with SMTP id a13so857520ilh.3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:09:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532lRKU9iYbnbPce7d/ChhkujgzxaH87FdAFlEkTyYhF+Coaodjz sS3uAyogskftUFZ5OaVbRXHXJI/fYtXxoGGkE3U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzqT2fmqfEXT+iiCuR0a+Pn8vBTt+BqBj/h3ztB0IgvuqfwEgLMzCfI+kS70r745vHLQXkp04QxeF6+RcRsCeE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:13f2:: with SMTP id w18mr6710532ilj.265.1592366979124; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:09:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> In-Reply-To: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> From: Wesley Peng Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:09:27 +0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 5D461762-B050-11EA-A7BA-C28CBED8090B-60148086!pb-smtp1.pobox.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ms5w5x4xz4DhS X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=pobox.com header.s=sasl header.b=vAyS5e R; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=pobox.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley.p@pobox.com designates 64.147.108.70 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wesley.p@pobox.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.57 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[pobox.com:s=sasl]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[pobox.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.108.0/24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.014]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.88)[-0.880]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[pobox.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[pobox.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.57)[-0.573]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.108.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.108.70:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 04:09:42 -0000 That sounds strange, GNU tools + kernel = Un*x If kernel was replaced to Linux, the new product is another form of Linux, nothing related to BSD. Regards On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 11:33 AM kindu smith wrote: > Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? The structure of FreeBSD is > very good, such as the startup and directory structure, and the user > island program. The only shortcoming is poor hardware support. This is > mainly due to the lack of drivers provided by the kernel. The Linux > kernel is assisted by developers around the world. Changing to the > Linux kernel can make up for this shortcoming. For the system > architecture, package management pkg, and user island programs can > still use the original FreeBSD. > > Among the unix-like systems, the most popular except macos is ubuntu. > This does not mean that ubuntu is good enough. It is still very poor > compared to archlinux and other distros. But it is still the most > popular because it takes a road from users, servers, to the cloud. That > is to first increase the user's utilization rate, then increase the > popularity, and then seek the popularity of the server and cloud > fields. > > I think the reason why FreeBSD has reduced the number of users is > because it does not take care of the experience of ordinary users, and > it takes the opposite path from a server, cloud to users. Positioning > such an excellent operating system as just server usage has greatly > reduced its popularity. > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 04:53:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C492D342ABA for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 04:53:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mail.foucry.net (fournil.foucry.net [95.217.83.231]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mt4G4qhWz4HN3 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 04:53:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.localdomain (lfbn-idf2-1-629-205.w86-246.abo.wanadoo.fr [86.246.89.205]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.foucry.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E96C03C9D9 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 04:53:10 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=foucry.net; s=dkim; t=1592369591; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=cuQ6caM/xSMLhZ+6T3zwQ8J07m1PRLuHaVP+fbZ1aog=; b=TbzV+tdDNvGsuI1DVgnyuF+GlaywKpW14/8tUFPyioc2Byq0Ld5Pprn3/DzpHeoBYBOxKZ SQzrGypWahb4c+0ROHIMVSCvBudh3P1A5BLl0q+TSOlAGg/KjvzBdNELK3+WY7hPBLCYEH 3vBs3S/emdXRnASiWYDPLUcrdX8UT+k= Received: from mithril (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mithril.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB7212193 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 06:53:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 06:53:09 +0200 From: Jacques Foucry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200617045309.GB16409@mithril> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.60 X-Rspamd-Server: mail.foucry.net X-Spam-Score: -2.60 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mt4G4qhWz4HN3 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=foucry.net header.s=dkim header.b=TbzV+tdD; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=foucry.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jacques@foucry.net designates 95.217.83.231 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jacques@foucry.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.83 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[foucry.net:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.947]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.018]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[foucry.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[foucry.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.36)[-0.362]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:95.217.0.0/16, country:DE]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 04:53:19 -0000 Le mercredi 17 juin 2020 à 09:16:47 (+0800), Wesley Peng à écrit: Hi, > Hello > > For mailing lists posting and reading, what MUA should be used by your > suggestion? Thunderbird, Evolution, Gmail? > > And, what MUA should not be used for this purpose, Such as Outlook? > > I expect that a guide. Thanks. I used a lot of MUA in my life (elm, PROFS -from IBM-, Thunderbird, Lotus Notes, Mail.app -from Apple-) and the best and more efficent is for me the stone aged mutt. It's hard to change, the progress line is not easy, the configuration file take months to be "like you want" but once it's done… Whaou. Hum, btw you must know vi or emacs to use it and be efficient My 2 cts. -- Jacques Foucry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 05:04:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2871343132 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:04:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mail.foucry.net (fournil.foucry.net [95.217.83.231]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mtKZ65cDz4HhW for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:04:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.localdomain (2a01cb0400bb0900ea6a64fffe0795a1.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr [IPv6:2a01:cb04:bb:900:ea6a:64ff:fe07:95a1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.foucry.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7B6D33C9F5 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:04:42 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=foucry.net; s=dkim; t=1592370282; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Md/z+Ip7hxqTmizZLNbGXX1E6oZA5eODj7P+uriUp+M=; b=bQoivmZoaXHPqOD8CHDx9bbAmENf/RpnAfQbjPrLogOrqT3l8Gveh9FEU1keGU1z7MnGJw 4a3uGWCGhc3tO/OLOo2Mf0sNOODTMTwo10a92P1aAPPFHJ8lj5xRzI/uCaW4kvYDLreBkm e3T6sdD54n6Evp2oPugeNCGV7uolrxU= Received: from mithril (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mithril.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE98F1219A for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 07:04:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 07:04:41 +0200 From: Jacques Foucry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? Message-ID: <20200617050441.GC16409@mithril> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.60 X-Rspamd-Server: mail.foucry.net X-Spam-Score: -1.60 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mtKZ65cDz4HhW X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=foucry.net header.s=dkim header.b=bQoivmZo; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=foucry.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jacques@foucry.net designates 95.217.83.231 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jacques@foucry.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.02 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[foucry.net:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.929]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.027]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[foucry.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[foucry.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.56)[-0.561]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:95.217.0.0/16, country:DE]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:04:51 -0000 Le mercredi 17 juin 2020 à 11:33:25 (+0800), kindu smith à écrit: [sni] Is there a new troll every week on the list? Is it mandaroy to the list? I did not read about that ã‚’hen suscribing. (jut kidding) -- Jacques Foucry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 05:07:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8821134322F for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:07:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from web@3dresearch.com) Received: from smtpg.telissant.net (smtpg.telissant.net [104.225.1.73]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mtNy3K8Yz4J76 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:07:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from web@3dresearch.com) Received: from sacada.3dresearch.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtpg.telissant.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49mtNr3W1Yz1lvZS for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 01:07:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at telissant.net Received: from smtpg.telissant.net ([127.0.0.1]) by sacada.3dresearch.com (sacada.3dresearch.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08pginaV34DK for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 01:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from elettra.3dresearch.com (unknown [71.112.245.218]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: elettra@sacada.3dresearch.com) by smtpg.telissant.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mtNr0Y4Yz1lvPh for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 01:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bufftemp.3dresearch.com (unknown [10.61.70.200]) by elettra.3dresearch.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6F533D870 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 01:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bufftemp.3dresearch.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bufftemp.3dresearch.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7640EDC9CC for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 01:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 01:07:35 -0400 From: Janos Dohanics To: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200617010735.fb8bde55636bad3bb1bc8ccb@3dresearch.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mtNy3K8Yz4J76 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of web@3dresearch.com designates 104.225.1.73 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=web@3dresearch.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.04 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.85)[-0.846]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ENVFROM_SERVICE_ACCT(1.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[3dresearch.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.989]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.32)[-0.321]; FROM_SERVICE_ACCT(1.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36236, ipnet:104.225.1.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[71.112.245.218:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:07:47 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:45:54 +0200 Chris Knipe wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:35 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > [...] > > > > > We are talking about > https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#idp44832888 > > It would -seem- to me (personally at least), the majority is kept > back to cater for the minority. [...] > > [...] > > No my friend, it is your CHOICE to be stuck in the stone age... [...] Minority vs. majority and stone age vs. modern... no. What you fail to consider is that when you join a list/forum/community, which has posted rules/guidelines/etiquette, it is only good manners that newcomers follow those rules/guidelines/etiquette. You are certainly welcome to propose and argue for changes. And if you are on the losing side of the argument, nothing is preventing you from starting a list/forum/community where your rules/guidelines/etiquette must be adhered too. -- Janos Dohanics From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 07:01:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD3E1345907 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 07:01:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mwvl6j9cz4Ng6 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 07:01:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mwvj5wXBzFdxb for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 00:01:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592377265; bh=wH6M3mgI6pH5fJTze4FlZc2XpMxsKZvZIVEiRoFf5js=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=siaEUERFSrg9tUUXdZGjK0Qq6d+tzRY9kQIFK+BCsRq1b0UCKgGXKLKglZa0YAHTW s2TR778yzpZ8vwYVFfhXBjMqX4PdLGPv78C6irDprjy7A9R4Vx4cmMl+OsaAXy/6sb J8rNOqnvlETE8ZY3YD63xKgXLIA4vhzkY8Y8rdP8= X-Riseup-User-ID: 71D42B67EC45FE4E03403B17E149287A786F7A0D228BC4480BF55C603B0A402C Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mwvj1FMGzJp3N for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 00:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 09:01:05 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: FreeBSD questions Subject: https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?null(4) Message-ID: <20200617090105.2dc367bb@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mwvl6j9cz4Ng6 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=siaEUERF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.63 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.05)[-1.050]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.958]; URL_IN_SUBJECT(1.00)[www.freebsd.org]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.023]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 07:01:08 -0000 Some threads are caught in a dead end, you can safely redirect them to /dev/null . Under normal circumstances it's reasonable to read the body of an email with a subject like "Will FreeBSD migrate away from BSD-style init?" and to reply. At the moment it's safe to redirect emails with similar subjects to /dev/null , without even considering to read the emails' bodies. Keep in mind that a single human being could act as several provocateurs using different accounts. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 08:39:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3478B347C77 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 08:39:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perso@florencepaul.com) Received: from mx-out-01.sud-ouest2.org (mx-out-01.sud-ouest2.org [87.98.220.64]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mx-out-01.sud-ouest2.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mz4x2qdfz4Tv5 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 08:39:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perso@florencepaul.com) Received: by mx-out-01.sud-ouest2.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CBCAD552E60C8; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:39:05 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 mx-out-01.sud-ouest2.org CBCAD552E60C8 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sud-ouest2.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7023B101D067D7; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:39:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.sud-ouest2.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sud-ouest2.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id PfFO-1HSGxMK; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:38:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Paul Florence Subject: Re: Geli password over network strategies To: Evilham Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <4ac6ee31-ab05-97f6-da4b-c2d798651fdf@florencepaul.com> <9dd8e65a-afdd-514f-0dc0-6bb60b9faaab@florencepaul.com> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:38:58 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mz4x2qdfz4Tv5 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.96 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.957]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[florencepaul.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:87.98.220.64:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.011]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[florencepaul.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[florencepaul.com,quarantine]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:87.98.128.0/17, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 08:39:14 -0000 It has been a few month now since this message, however I have been able to successfully use your script with minor modifications. To sum it up : 1) Boot on a FreeBSD USB stick running the same kernel as the one installed on the server drive 2) Fetch encryption.key through sftp (or mount your bootpool) 3) Use your script to mount everything plus the bootpool which is needed because the file "/boot/zfs/zpool.cache" seems to be needed to mount everything correctly at boot time. 3) Reboot Since the live system is on a USB key, I set the usb zfs pool (zroot_usb) to be read-only to avoid unwanted modifications (which could lock me out of my box in case of reboot) and extra wear on the flash cells. However I have a strange behavior that I do not understand. It seems that the (zroot_usb zfs pool persists after the reboot and I can't find a way to disable it. Moreover, it is extra-confusing because it looks like I have two pools mounted at the same mountpoints. The system works mostly fine, but "pkg update" fails because /tmp is too small. I tried to unmount zroot_usb using "zpool export", however since the file system is in use, the pool is busy. Here is the output of "zfs get mounted" : NAME                    PROPERTY  VALUE    SOURCE bootpool                mounted   yes      - zroot                   mounted   yes      - zroot/ROOT              mounted   no       - zroot/ROOT/default        mounted   yes      - zroot/ROOT/default@bk1  mounted   -        - zroot/tmp               mounted   yes      - zroot/usr               mounted   no       - zroot/usr/home          mounted   yes      - zroot/usr/ports         mounted   yes      - zroot/usr/src           mounted   yes      - zroot/var               mounted   no       - zroot/var/audit         mounted   yes      - zroot/var/crash         mounted   yes      - zroot/var/log           mounted   yes      - zroot/var/mail          mounted   yes      - zroot/var/tmp           mounted   yes      - zroot_usb               mounted   no       - zroot_usb/ROOT          mounted   no       - zroot_usb/ROOT/default    mounted   no       - zroot_usb/tmp            mounted   yes      - zroot_usb/usr            mounted   no       - zroot_usb/usr/home       mounted   yes      - zroot_usb/usr/ports       mounted   yes      - zroot_usb/usr/src         mounted   yes      - zroot_usb/var            mounted   no       - zroot_usb/var/audit       mounted   yes      - zroot_usb/var/crash       mounted   yes      - zroot_usb/var/log         mounted   yes      - zroot_usb/var/mail        mounted   yes      - zroot_usb/var/tmp        mounted   yes      - Do you have any idea how to prevent the system to auto-import this pool on startup ? I still need the pool to be auto-imported when booting from the USB disk kernel. Apart from this issue, I am quite satisfied with this setup : if someone were to steal my box they would not be able to decrypt the drive. Yet, it is still possible to replace the USB key with a malicious one recording the password, but this is not really part of my threat model. Secure boot might be able to mitigate this attack but from what I understand it is not yet production ready for FreeBSD. Please note that I am no FreeBSD expert, and everything written are assumptions based from what I understand of the documentation, feel free to correct me if I misunderstood something. On 25/11/2019 16:18, Evilham wrote: > On dl., nov. 25 2019, Paul Florence via freebsd-questions wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> I am currently running a home-made server with 12.0-RELEASE-p10 using >> full disk geli encryption. When I boot the server, I first have to type >> a password to decrypt the whole system. >> >> However, my ISP is having some power issues and in the last few weeks I >> had to go there quite a few times to type a passphrase. >> >> I would like now to be able to enter my passphrase over the network. >> >> Would the following boot process be possible ? >> >> 1. First boot from an unencrypted kernel from a USB stick. >> >> 2. Then start an SSH server. >> >> 3. Input my passphrase over an ssh terminal. >> >> 4. Use the provided passphrase as the geli secret to boot the OS from >> the disk >> >> If no, has anyone had to deal with this kind of problem ? If so, what >> kind of strategy did you decide to use ? >> >> Thanks, > > > Hi Paul, > > I'm don't think what you mention works as it is, but is close enough > to what I've done and does work: > > I hope you are aware of the security downsides of doing this, I think > it does look like the kind of trade-off you need. > > - There is an unencrypted FreeBSD (caveat: kernel must match that  of > the encrypted system, care when upgrading) > - System boots into that unencrypted FreeBSD > - I access that unencrypted system over SSH > - Encrypted system is unlocked > - reboot -r is used to boot into that system (man reboot explains >  that quite well) > > I use ZFS and a simple unlock script that is at the end of this > message (the unencrypted pool is called "init" as opposed to "zroot"), > but you should be able to do sth similar with e.g. UFS (man reboot has > a very basic example). > > Also: I do think this use-case could be made easier but haven't tried > to hack into the installer (yet). Apparently I am not alone, see the > feedback bits towards the end of the episode: https://www.bsdnow.tv/319 > > Hope this helps, cheers. > -- Evilham > > > #!/bin/sh > > # Setup variables > partition="ada0p4" > zfs_pool="zroot" > > # Unlock encrypted system > geli attach ${partition} || exit > > # Import pool without mounting only if needed. > # If pool is already imported, this does nothing. > zpool status ${zfs_pool} > /dev/null 2>&1 || zpool import -Nf -R /mnt > ${zfs_pool} > > # Get bootfs > bootfs=$(zpool get -H -o value bootfs ${zfs_pool}) > > # See FreeBSD bug 210721 > zpool export ${zfs_pool} > > # Setup root file system > echo > kenv "vfs.root.mountfrom=zfs:${bootfs}" > echo > > # Reboot into decrypted system > reboot -r From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 12:19:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7B034D6BE for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:19:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49n3ym03n9z3TbK for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:19:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N5VLY-1inpiz2n5G-016y8S; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:18:59 +0200 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:18:57 +0200 From: Polytropon To: malaizhichun@tom.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? Message-Id: <20200617141857.b208232a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:4gQBZoYH4G3+W8mUD2MADOS2R7VUKbsXpBWO/SQA/biUjBbPSTX 14H7vaYIlYwTV1lxTAj6FqFgOucqHs3ynGQEgaj9tOz4QbOA1S+nT/Cas0SUO/w/YZmLHPi dsrDDxPbT/vykc16q4q7xVqHTKhRzB4r5RE9HU4Ua/rBriMMtyrqacDqkpq+nNlH+1311MK /3IWwY887nnYgDZtfvbkg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Yp1GNcT+lSs=:metQMIgLXRLuPIf71gvvRK yZSHf7KRknN4708ustOysCDRZMWRl0MF6HtdKk/nSqAytOaBRV9R7sSPo6nJVkQjhsiK75MbR dij2ZoR63pLOTX7QVRdlS1orItPSsjXG9THJOnEU/5Fw8nWQprZZMpWdhXmq6yDRX8uhV9r+K Mm/Cf9JPy4TYSa9G/unIK5BiXqgokq5QwhCqcCKKbS7tEZXanUHRxa0D1uq/eI8PzradhFoes wt2U9w1dVvoM7hIQ11FfaZZcpbLyG6fyLa8+PJKTHY78ny81Y7J3Y2PENyjAQfgR68NgyHw+p JFW8Z/MOeMCyXyZNtJ0/grw8yInBRbnuP48bxsHC8P+hsjyEYeGoFotXIMIBlX9+ajG3wLS6b 4n6O5x6ZXKXNQ2gbEp35OQrb92klDyYJdVjPEnmaRCxGgevB2zVEVlkBCM3dbbwEVMlbmmlE2 TDGhnutoMgd8v6RfimenVt1HRPZW0aRbRH4ujpOJs8grhlFitBlTf8l8xkhll9tnd8JzrIVVs x8pcbrcom3lfUkMZHUBQg5O1CHxaauvCGrwKwtyfUq9xDX+nc3N/DrqhtvFgmSxYznQT1hJ3W oiX9MMmO1gD9macmBb1j5ES9Si4OgU7Q6ta3x2CYesqtRpZKp/5Qd+tAuFc3v3YbOSotkcqan aE6QDH1Jovtn09H7+xkOBsppnzwbNRRZBQBIIgkWH9c93h9tNgXAWosuCIVwIEqR4j/Taqgoz LwXjtYptyMo/Ck1SoyyeI3dWH+7kklwcrNFJAePMgM19gw3A7IIWrB01RfIFBCdgxjD5BoXwh u3cCx/ZunjmjoARq3T++gDh8kk14l0+gwB3z6g6YR7T25LJ6gg= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49n3ym03n9z3TbK X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.86 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.27)[-0.269]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[tom.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.82)[0.823]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.91)[0.906]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:19:13 -0000 On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800, kindu smith wrote: > Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? The structure of FreeBSD is > very good, such as the startup and directory structure, and the user > island program. The only shortcoming is poor hardware support. This is > mainly due to the lack of drivers provided by the kernel. While there are certain basic drivers in the kernel, the majority of drivers is provided by loadable kernel modules, either developed by the FreeBSD team itself, or available from the ports collection. They use interfaces provided by the kernel. NB: Terminus technicus: "userland". :-) > The Linux > kernel is assisted by developers around the world. Changing to the > Linux kernel can make up for this shortcoming. For the system > architecture, package management pkg, and user island programs can > still use the original FreeBSD. But in fact, that wouldn't be FreeBSD anymore. When we say "Linux", we usually refer to a "GNU/Linux distribution", which means the Linux kernel + GNU userland + preinstalled and preconfigured packages, depending on the distribution's choice. The problem that occurs when FreeBSD is deprived of the FreeBSD kernel and it is replaced by the Linux kernel is that the result is no longer FreeBSD: It's a something/Linux. That "something" would be... yes, what would it be? FreeBSD userland that no longer works because the Linux kernel is not compatible? By the way, there was (is?) a GNU/kFreeBSD project where a GNU userland is combined with a FreeBSD kernel. Interesting, isn't it? Assuming that the FreeBSD kernel is so "inferior"... ;-) > Among the unix-like systems, the most popular except macos is ubuntu. > This does not mean that ubuntu is good enough. In my opinion, it is _exactly_ the proof that Ubuntu is good enough. :-) > It is still very poor > compared to archlinux and other distros. Depends. Arch Linux is not designed for novice users primarily. While it offers a Linux experience that is, more or less, quite comparable to a UNIX experience, it's not what "Joe Q. Sixpack" would expect - "too complicated"; this is where Ubuntu delivers a much more welcoming experience. > But it is still the most > popular because it takes a road from users, servers, to the cloud. FreeBSD is a multi-purpose operating system; it is _one_ OS to be used in appliances, desktops, laptops, servers, VMs ("cloud instances"), and you don't have to choose a different "distribution" if you want to move from one field of application to the other. In my experience, only the "lower level Linusi" offer such a wide range of possibilities, while "advanced Linusi" are already taylored to fit exactly one of those fields mentioned above. So the Ubuntu that you run on your home laptop is hardly suitable to run as a "cloud instance" to process heavy database load. > That > is to first increase the user's utilization rate, then increase the > popularity, and then seek the popularity of the server and cloud > fields. Isn't that basically the same way FreeBSD also goes? > I think the reason why FreeBSD has reduced the number of users is > because it does not take care of the experience of ordinary users, and > it takes the opposite path from a server, cloud to users. As I mentioned, this doesn't seem to be the case. However, you can hardly tell anything about the number of people who use FreeBSD. It's quite possible that the Linux system you're using that the moment on your home PC (assumption) connects to the Internet using a device that runs FreeBSD - and you don't know about it! So it's quite possible (but cannot really be proven) that the "usage share" (derived from "market share") is much higher than one might think. As with any operating system, users and admins are involved. Especially admins choose FreeBSD for specific reasons, and if you ask for those reasons, they can explain them in a technical way, rather than just "No Sir, I don't like it.", and sometimes they will choose FreeBSD over Linux for valid reasons. They do so because they judge from a technical point of view, instead of looking at the shiny packaging paper. :-) > Positioning > such an excellent operating system as just server usage has greatly > reduced its popularity. Again, I don't think this is correct. FreeBSD has been positioned for decades as a multi-purpose OS, and has been in use as such for many many years. Trying to simply exchange the kernel doesn't lead anywhere, I would say. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 13:12:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BC1634EBBC for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:12:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca) Received: from doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (doctor.nl2k.ab.ca [204.209.81.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49n58Q4Ysvz3XNC for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:12:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca) Received: from doctor by doctor.nl2k.ab.ca with local (Exim 4.93.0.4) (envelope-from ) id 1jlXri-000A1t-Oc for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 07:12:30 -0600 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 07:12:30 -0600 From: The Doctor To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: radius Message-ID: <20200617131230.GB37089@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49n58Q4Ysvz3XNC X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.16 / 15.00]; INTRODUCTION(2.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.19)[-0.191]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.966]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.12)[0.118]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[nl2k.ab.ca,quarantine]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6171, ipnet:204.209.81.0/24, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:12:39 -0000 Anyone ogt Freeradius 3 to work woth their passwd files? -- Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Yahweh, Queen & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising! nk.ca started 1 June 1995 . https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b Holding the church as Christ's head is not the act of a redeemed soul. -unknown From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 13:16:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DF5D34E87B for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:16:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca) Received: from doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (doctor.nl2k.ab.ca [204.209.81.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49n5Dd5Jl7z3X98 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:16:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca) Received: from doctor by doctor.nl2k.ab.ca with local (Exim 4.93.0.4) (envelope-from ) id 1jlXvM-000Adx-EU for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 07:16:16 -0600 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 07:16:16 -0600 From: The Doctor To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: PPTP / L2TP VPN "dial ups" Message-ID: <20200617131616.GC37089@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49n5Dd5Jl7z3X98 X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.30 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.23)[-0.227]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.964]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.29)[0.287]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[nl2k.ab.ca,quarantine]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6171, ipnet:204.209.81.0/24, country:CA]; INTRODUCTION(2.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:16:18 -0000 All right has anyone been able to set up a PPTP / L2TP dial up pool similar to openVPN using either Racoon2 or Strongswan and pf ? Here is what I have so far for my mpd5.conf file ################################################################# # # MPD configuration file # # This file defines the configuration for mpd: what the # bundles are, what the links are in those bundles, how # the interface should be configured, various PPP parameters, # etc. It contains commands just as you would type them # in at the console. Lines without padding are labels. Lines # starting with a "#" are comments. # # $Id: mpd.conf.sample,v 1.49 2015/06/02 08:30:35 dmitryluhtionov Exp $ # ################################################################# startup: # configure mpd users set user admin LyndaX69 admin #set user foo1 bar1 # configure the console set console self 127.0.0.1 5005 set console open # configure the web server set web self 0.0.0.0 5006 set web open default: load radius load l2tp_server load pptp_server pptp_server: # # Mpd as a PPTP server compatible with Microsoft Dial-Up Networking clients. # # Suppose you have a private Office LAN numbered 192.168.1.0/24 and the # machine running mpd is at 192.168.1.1, and also has an externally visible # IP address of 1.2.3.4. # # We want to allow a client to connect to 1.2.3.4 from out on the Internet # via PPTP. We will assign that client the address 192.168.1.50 and proxy-ARP # for that address, so the virtual PPP link will be numbered 192.168.1.1 local # and 192.168.1.50 remote. From the client machine's perspective, it will # appear as if it is actually on the 192.168.1.0/24 network, even though in # reality it is somewhere far away out on the Internet. # # Our DNS server is at 192.168.1.3 and our NBNS (WINS server) is at 192.168.1.4. # If you don't have an NBNS server, leave that line out. # # Define dynamic IP address pool. set ippool add pool1 10.10.0.0 10.255.255.254 # Create clonable bundle template named B create bundle template B set iface enable proxy-arp set iface idle 1800 set iface enable tcpmssfix set ipcp yes vjcomp # Specify IP address pool for dynamic assigment. set ipcp ranges 10.10.0.1/32 ippool pool1 set ipcp dns 192.168.81.1 #set ipcp nbns 192.168.81.3 # The five lines below enable Microsoft Point-to-Point encryption # (MPPE) using the ng_mppc(8) netgraph node type. set bundle enable compression set ccp yes mppc set mppc yes e40 set mppc yes e128 set mppc yes stateless # Create clonable link template named L create link template L pptp # Set bundle template to use set link action bundle B # Multilink adds some overhead, but gives full 1500 MTU. set link enable multilink set link yes acfcomp protocomp set link no pap chap eap set link enable pap set link enable chap # We can use use RADIUS authentication/accounting by including # another config section with label 'radius'. load radius set link keep-alive 10 60 # Enable utmp/wtmp logging # set auth enable system-acct # We reducing link mtu to avoid GRE packet fragmentation. set link mtu 1460 # Configure PPTP set pptp self 0.0.0.0 # Allow to accept calls set link enable incoming l2tp_server: # Define dynamic IP address pool. set ippool add pool1 10.12.0.0 10.12.255.254 # Create clonable bundle template named B create bundle template B_l2tp set bundle enable compression set iface enable proxy-arp set iface enable tcpmssfix set ifce mtu 1280 set ipcp yes vjcomp # Specify IP address pool for dynamic assigment. set ipcp ranges 10.12.0.1/32 ippool pool_l2tp set ipcp dns 192.168.81.1 # Create clonable link template named L create link template L_l2tp l2tp set link action bundle B_l2tp set link keep-alive 0 0 set link yes acfcomp protocomp set link no pap chap eap set link enable pap set link enable chap # Configure L2TP set l2tp self 0.0.0.0 set l2tp disable dataseq # Allow to accept calls set link enable incoming pptp_vpn: # # Mpd using PPTP for LAN to LAN VPN, always connected. # # Suppose you have a private Office LAN numbered 192.168.1.0/24 and another # remote private Office LAN numbered 192.168.2.0/24, and you wanted to route # between these two private networks using a PPTP VPN over the Internet. # # You run mpd on dual-homed machines on either end. Say the local machine # has internal address 192.168.1.1 and externally visible address 1.2.3.4, # and the remote machine has internal address 192.168.2.1 and externally # visible address 2.3.4.5. # # Note: mpd does not support the peer's "inside" IP address being the same # as its "outside" IP address. In the above example, this means that # 192.168.2.1 != 2.3.4.5. # # The "inside" IP addresses are configured by "set ipcp ranges ..." # (in mpd.conf) while the "outside" IP addreses are configured by # "set pptp self ..." and "set pptp peer ...". # create bundle static B1 set ipcp ranges 10.10.1.1/32 10.10.2.1/32 set iface route 192.168.2.0/24 # Enable Microsoft Point-to-Point encryption (MPPE) set bundle enable compression set ccp yes mppc set mppc yes e40 set mppc yes e128 set bundle enable crypt-reqd set mppc yes stateless create link static L1 pptp set link action bundle B1 # Enable both sides to authenticat each other with CHAP set link no pap chap eap set link yes chap #set auth authname "VpnLogin" #set auth password "VpnPassword" set link mtu 1460 set link keep-alive 10 75 set link max-redial 0 # Configure PPTP and open link set pptp self 10.2.3.4 set pptp peer 10.3.4.5 set link enable incoming open pptp_client: # # PPTP client: only outgoing calls, auto reconnect, # ipcp-negotiated address, one-sided authentication, # default route points on ISP's end # create bundle static B1 set bundle enable compression set ccp yes mppc set mppc no e40 set mppc yes e128 set mppc yes stateless set iface route default set ipcp ranges 0.0.0.0/0 0.0.0.0/0 # Enable network Address Translation (NAT) # and forward tcp port 80 to the internal network machine with IP 192.168.0.1 set iface enable nat set nat red-port tcp 0.0.0.0 80 192.168.0.1 80 create link static L1 pptp set link action bundle B1 set auth authname MyLogin set auth password MyPass set link max-redial 0 set link mtu 1460 set link keep-alive 20 75 set pptp peer 1.2.3.4 set pptp disable windowing open pppoe_server: # # Multihomed multilink PPPoE server # # Create clonable bundle template create bundle template B # Set IP addresses. Peer address will be later replaced by RADIUS. set ipcp ranges 192.168.0.1/32 127.0.0.2/32 # Create link template with common info create link template common pppoe # Enable multilink protocol set link enable multilink # Set bundle template to use set link action bundle B # Enable peer authentication set link disable chap pap eap set link enable pap load radius set pppoe service "superisp" # Create templates for ifaces to listen using 'common' template and let them go create link template fxp0 common set link max-children 1000 set pppoe iface fxp0 set link enable incoming create link template fxp1 common set link max-children 500 set pppoe iface fxp1 set link enable incoming pppoe_client: # # PPPoE client: only outgoing calls, auto reconnect, # ipcp-negotiated address, one-sided authentication, # default route points on ISP's end # create bundle static B1 set iface route default set ipcp ranges 0.0.0.0/0 0.0.0.0/0 create link static L1 pppoe set link action bundle B1 set auth authname MyLogin set auth password MyPass set link max-redial 0 set link mtu 1460 set link keep-alive 10 60 set pppoe iface fxp0 set pppoe service "" open radius: # You can use radius.conf(5), its useful, because you can share the # same config with userland-ppp and other apps. #set radius config /etc/radius.conf #set radius config /usr/gnurad/etc/raddb/config # or specify the server directly here set radius server localhost Tone 1645 1646 set radius retries 3 set radius timeout 3 # send the given IP in the RAD_NAS_IP_ADDRESS attribute to the server. set radius me 10.11.1.1 # send accounting updates every 5 minutes set auth acct-update 300 # enable RADIUS, and fallback to mpd.secret, if RADIUS auth failed set auth enable radius-auth # enable RADIUS accounting set auth enable radius-acct # protect our requests with the message-authenticator set radius enable message-authentic simple_lac: # # This is a simple L2TP access concentrator which receives PPPoE calls # and forwards them to LNS on 1.2.3.4 # create link template L1 pppoe set pppoe iface fxp0 set link action forward L2 set link enable incoming create link template L2 l2tp set l2tp peer 1.2.3.4 complete_lac: # # This is more complicated L2TP access concentrator which receives PPPoE calls # and if peer auth name includes @corp1.net forwards them to LNS on 1.2.3.4, # if peer auth name includes @corp2.net forwards them to LNS on 2.3.4.5 # all other connections processes itself localy using internal auth and # assigning dynamic IP from specified pool. # set ippool add pool1 10.12.0.1 10.12.255.254 create link template L1 pppoe set pppoe iface igb0 # We must ask authentication to get peer login set link no pap chap eap set link enable pap set link action forward L2 "@corp1\\.net$" set link action forward L3 "@corp2\\.net$" set link action bundle B1 set link enable incoming create link template L2 l2tp set l2tp peer 10.2.3.4 set l2tp secret corp1secret create link template L3 l2tp set l2tp peer 10.3.4.5 set l2tp secret corp2secret create bundle template B1 set ipcp ranges 10.12.1.1/32 ippool pool1 -- Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Yahweh, Queen & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising! nk.ca started 1 June 1995 . https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b Holding the church as Christ's head is not the act of a redeemed soul. -unknown From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 17:41:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0CE1354BF4 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:41:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qv1-xf33.google.com (mail-qv1-xf33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nC7446Glz47DH for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:41:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qv1-xf33.google.com with SMTP id er17so1437977qvb.8 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:41:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:reply-to:organization:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=eRNldn+ff/YQzGWsRYAdZjK2OttktHAlW/YYsEyLd9U=; b=S4N96eKs47u4YzuUJCr5ljTSgt17F0r3IEoimL8B2lIoJdew3BbxsetkFp7MjTcDvm WEES0Fgfk766CHP35QgrsMz8a3NZmjwC101ZZU3ppwYKwrW0FTTrlEQRJeCJCUba36Az /4x5zyWbtHlmE8xlDgXOHnbp2jX7kXUM/cIlQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:reply-to :organization:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eRNldn+ff/YQzGWsRYAdZjK2OttktHAlW/YYsEyLd9U=; b=WKak/eqGZCmh2dAmw1OPNhyaQvrLkgN80amXPhQgNUG6ZiwRAKcl/lzpFwJuB9bv2l h0/gYV/1nl/OhGA9i4prD9h7V0JDyDSdfX3N7BBkjxo7twzXaUaiSIzP4QCn1GOO+IVX 7hzhVuuOG19Swz0rCNef1JRsBdlZI4DpXtDJTPldObuYP4wa9PN4Eg7VxTOiQYuTOdtF +95yFQAVbJ7YJ5HC1NwyzD+T2o/Y+nKr26CfGlk01pmZeAtYc/Y4mA30xX8Tf/s8WiCF VwsyTic1mSefhfyc/CIXJeCsvNjRbirMAjfIS5Vj8PGo4PtwkP9FovrV+u7/aVytNHWq CLpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532vUZJ6AA4MlFiTHZGktl1UQAaGZKjp0FWvrDyG9OznhXVXwccg yVwh0TZ54vWc5duMr9HMjd8/Z76UNXg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJybYCooZKjkeOnofsc1/SdnO2UiqGEo7pAS8aLF6djrINR1e8SsZDXBbC+8a2PUSNxhl5uCuQ== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:55eb:: with SMTP id bu11mr8767232qvb.182.1592415711322; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u205sm508812qka.81.2020.06.17.10.41.48 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49nC6z6mLtz4SrH for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:41:46 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Update 11.3 > 11.4 Message-ID: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nC7446Glz47DH X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=S4N96eKs; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f33 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.46 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.85)[-0.846]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.966]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.77)[0.774]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f33:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:41:53 -0000 Due to a long standing bug, https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=237666, I am unable to use FreeBSD 12.x. I am now on 11.3 and want to move to 11.4. I just want to confirm a few things. 1) freebsd-update -r 11.4-RELEASE fetch 2) freebsd-update install Now, since I am primarily using poudriere, all I need to do is update the poudriere jail and then update all the applications on the system. Is there anything I am missing? -- Jerry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 17:43:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD63F3551D1 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:43:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lobo@bsd.com.br) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nC8M21MSz47Y0 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:42:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lobo@bsd.com.br) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id o5so3793491iow.8 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:42:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsd.com.br; s=capeta; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=dkPwfaeGUjS6NF26uor3VKZ5uGdrXU1iyq6RTmxmkQA=; b=EXZfEvgfZ1ROHE6W8oPwk6wKJGMNXisKPId8fOgQOg1/IiQ5/ciZJHvExHkWA8R0yB dLduV8h4FoLRniK2aGbagnrNXrForbLC2OVKmI957r8FbcsvtK9dCMGcoUCuEQci1sn/ prRibZ8TJxNCma4AP9swe08kRaRs/cgWMD9Ec= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=dkPwfaeGUjS6NF26uor3VKZ5uGdrXU1iyq6RTmxmkQA=; b=l7C0ivzsvXX8O2r0Xpz22dF0hbqMEcYkVObdnQ4lzbYjyC/QLV5pjwpj6dZsMOh4iF mfgFTdy8JSWNDjNM8FiF6WeRFD1p7cUhA1tQF9p4PUl/1E2QlaE8e2JAaeeuRT/kfPGU UhDL+/NK+BX0e3mQZzbFdRnDbC5H2qE278PGfkGeu34FxejgU6TzuT0S5ZkzhFNsWAWC YpHKaYKpZ2p7XdqPy+o1nFIuoV7ShHHwP1vQpibDxHxMHFmyqLUKb4bXP+ryEU5khiPf Tj6++F6m9gEcPxJyyIE7MSzic/VketgnypIcx9lorLHWlRvMQIGs1jotci/Vwj5sybVi UrWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5311+qb9m162QT2YK12LgKNUiRMRpYCtAC4lxiFo4ePoas+8+z3S Xk1UrGDpaA7Pi5vlEqsamemJF73q5E0AUxN5VAjNQa6dfLg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxx4i7b6lFIAf8Jw8vC19PYD/ATwv2tA5MOlUGOLcbhyIOlHF9m/7LX87qbVqZJHp1+RDz67aCtOFAFUNqoXuY= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9e51:: with SMTP id i17mr568438ioi.8.1592415777530; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:42:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> <20200617141857.b208232a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200617141857.b208232a.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Mario Lobo Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:42:46 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nC8M21MSz47Y0 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsd.com.br header.s=capeta header.b=EXZfEvgf; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lobo@bsd.com.br designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lobo@bsd.com.br X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.32 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.18)[-0.176]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsd.com.br:s=capeta]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsd.com.br]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.935]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.30)[0.295]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsd.com.br:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30:from]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:43:00 -0000 On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:19 AM Polytropon wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800, kindu smith wrote: > > Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? The structure of FreeBSD is > > very good, such as the startup and directory structure, and the user > > island program. The only shortcoming is poor hardware support. This is > > mainly due to the lack of drivers provided by the kernel. > > While there are certain basic drivers in the kernel, the > majority of drivers is provided by loadable kernel modules, > either developed by the FreeBSD team itself, or available > from the ports collection. They use interfaces provided by > the kernel. > > NB: Terminus technicus: "userland". :-) > > > > > The Linux > > kernel is assisted by developers around the world. Changing to the > > Linux kernel can make up for this shortcoming. For the system > > architecture, package management pkg, and user island programs can > > still use the original FreeBSD. > > But in fact, that wouldn't be FreeBSD anymore. > > When we say "Linux", we usually refer to a "GNU/Linux distribution", > which means the Linux kernel + GNU userland + preinstalled and > preconfigured packages, depending on the distribution's choice. > The problem that occurs when FreeBSD is deprived of the FreeBSD > kernel and it is replaced by the Linux kernel is that the result > is no longer FreeBSD: It's a something/Linux. That "something" > would be... yes, what would it be? FreeBSD userland that no > longer works because the Linux kernel is not compatible? > > By the way, there was (is?) a GNU/kFreeBSD project where a GNU > userland is combined with a FreeBSD kernel. Interesting, isn't > it? Assuming that the FreeBSD kernel is so "inferior"... ;-) > > > > > Among the unix-like systems, the most popular except macos is ubuntu. > > This does not mean that ubuntu is good enough. > > In my opinion, it is _exactly_ the proof that Ubuntu is good > enough. :-) > > > > > It is still very poor > > compared to archlinux and other distros. > > Depends. Arch Linux is not designed for novice users primarily. > While it offers a Linux experience that is, more or less, quite > comparable to a UNIX experience, it's not what "Joe Q. Sixpack" > would expect - "too complicated"; this is where Ubuntu delivers > a much more welcoming experience. > > > > > But it is still the most > > popular because it takes a road from users, servers, to the cloud. > > FreeBSD is a multi-purpose operating system; it is _one_ OS to > be used in appliances, desktops, laptops, servers, VMs ("cloud > instances"), and you don't have to choose a different "distribution" > if you want to move from one field of application to the other. > In my experience, only the "lower level Linusi" offer such a > wide range of possibilities, while "advanced Linusi" are already > taylored to fit exactly one of those fields mentioned above. > So the Ubuntu that you run on your home laptop is hardly suitable > to run as a "cloud instance" to process heavy database load. > > > > > That > > is to first increase the user's utilization rate, then increase the > > popularity, and then seek the popularity of the server and cloud > > fields. > > Isn't that basically the same way FreeBSD also goes? > > > > > I think the reason why FreeBSD has reduced the number of users is > > because it does not take care of the experience of ordinary users, and > > it takes the opposite path from a server, cloud to users. > > As I mentioned, this doesn't seem to be the case. However, you > can hardly tell anything about the number of people who use > FreeBSD. It's quite possible that the Linux system you're using > that the moment on your home PC (assumption) connects to the > Internet using a device that runs FreeBSD - and you don't know > about it! So it's quite possible (but cannot really be proven) > that the "usage share" (derived from "market share") is much > higher than one might think. > > As with any operating system, users and admins are involved. > Especially admins choose FreeBSD for specific reasons, and > if you ask for those reasons, they can explain them in a > technical way, rather than just "No Sir, I don't like it.", > and sometimes they will choose FreeBSD over Linux for valid > reasons. They do so because they judge from a technical point > of view, instead of looking at the shiny packaging paper. :-) > > > > > Positioning > > such an excellent operating system as just server usage has greatly > > reduced its popularity. > > Again, I don't think this is correct. FreeBSD has been > positioned for decades as a multi-purpose OS, and has been > in use as such for many many years. > > Trying to simply exchange the kernel doesn't lead anywhere, > I would say. > > > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Poly; Your politeness, articulation and reasoning commands agreement. +1 to everything you said. -- Mario Lobo http://www.mallavoodoo.com.br FreeBSD since version 2.2.8 [not Pro-Audio.... YET!!] From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 17:47:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08ADB3552C0 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:47:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nCF4568vz47gL for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:47:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id i4so786391iov.11 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:47:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=D5FKJmKjhDhiE+fdrWn6qYqyjMFN/G5DUEdjC+XNyKA=; b=UHDm19dUKG9eAtb47Yia/9RhBJd/u1Rbtx4p0+cznFsawYq4qsNnYAGKlh9r62/+4C E63rikW7d8D6dRf+G8/G294LN4l3GHmZtT2DNBGL0mfKWpuLL/oPXvLB0lAHjyvHEZF7 Q4E5WOR3rjWMIqlbjagk+7aJuUQAHQjuQvwrYZpnEvy3F8Ku1NET2CK3rNLMtKg7Dt5t 4TXNPrp8AISdUyDzygdszXaTzYNZv1iyoBBdZm5Yp/NHj3VN8LzWx1WZH4gBMsWUGoMs gGAyYHQKhZzzIvqIel6cDGj1tNbkr7woMsvUCQdPjGEWN4AIC0yg03GbXzy8Sm9wC1/K fpfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=D5FKJmKjhDhiE+fdrWn6qYqyjMFN/G5DUEdjC+XNyKA=; b=CC7vi678QzLg101IUg+gNeshOiY9dMMH/GIzq1MlMgwUSwiBOa7Df4PfxvTGREafPq 1Np2RnQBpyUAdwQJlVLtp6gH9Gqt0QGt8BP4PVe4ACfePWh6SXFe327jCfGQdb6NRE5i 5MkLgTOT6R2UljiBUYQ9dTpaVmQu8JcV5QCGJKyITGrI2Dh+RbhB4tPRSt2JfRXMpen/ /Stc1Vefun9W5kQ/UQ6rmpHz5q8s27PqLv53iTBxXviEYc8BP0r4JNy8ZetKWEhkWMQD 8OvBqxxfs6zTPnVkMt45DmlWfHEmfRI3XeAi4ypYGhknoEYe1768gH+bOijvmQVaUWqD mwew== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530VpoU/d7cwnSckAa2kcHbHeBIW7tgtc7WmsZ/GepCgzxC9FrBM N6yRIZpGVEimmWzEGCw4zbjDbK5ZH5bMn0h+8M9Dfhpj X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw364Y4DSYlp1EN2vCoLvJejHEELEJYGZuV8eC9GN/RuGW2ZmtbZ0XZndbZKq3NPnOP7bUMPDcdyDzdj9xrESU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1243:: with SMTP id o3mr538095iou.89.1592416023240; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:47:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:46:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nCF4568vz47gL X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:47:05 -0000 On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 1:42 PM Jerry wrote: > Due to a long standing bug, > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=237666, I am unable > to use FreeBSD 12.x. > Been fixed in 12.X for eons (the last bug report was on a beta version). Also bsd-update is really not the "right" way (it is a supported way but not the prefered way). Do the update from sources and you should have no problem (I have done the same upgrade on 5 machines now with no issue). > -- > Jerry > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 17:49:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F9635535A for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:49:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nCHJ3bm4z480R for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:49:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id o5so3819566iow.8 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:49:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xPJEIZk60LzslbEhU4u6ajjyznjd2Y5H38HAJ0VXcxo=; b=JyTPXgQr4qIgCJt/oCfdjfoedNTBKrvtwGuv8N6ZuJmHkypBh0bfLoFHOMM3LVC4j3 6KhHaKZY1tJqwbfeJt1pnDQ30hng6emw8astooVxmmmOlc9sWTDGCBfAr1xZHVr+E7ji 3qk6pjOrFo1U/xjuVDOzPYEhn0LxXNlV8J0rii1JIfYTTt84kzVdSrtzmZNDky7LN9HZ 8rrv78WktM/WukzB7lBjkrMZQ+qXyLR+Mg0Fhxkh+wpuCXVP9R9TaY9hwbcD7uy1i5FP HCwaQ+PVoM4zjO7xUqLcaa0Pjq28CHU6Ve/mN0lwCGGF4PKQPedDl4SeBWQGV499eNtH XdHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xPJEIZk60LzslbEhU4u6ajjyznjd2Y5H38HAJ0VXcxo=; b=sKOvHAXu9rysxEm+fm3Vu7Q3r4Yi9x7rIEedS/Cx6aj9R1VEtPn/D0wJBVAqqh9Ad/ g3PkDZo/F/aKM0ItSfjM8WXFSPVSYLLFfhIXF1SKpI0EouPDOAI5cEb55X9n9c+HW3GE yHrDvf3lj84k6KXhCTHCq5tcusUoGzEjwwiYSKziEWWlu3C2PxC8Gxt0TJ16mliV37dM CZ1BXYV/pF/blvY382SONUd5VerKzjPAyy5T/mtaQC5tDL9u8L4vrA+ikD0gBCqSZMs6 6Av0Rt+pPdK548WmJWusFdWYyybs37VQ8hmobzVLJKWaMAAPpPqybO7ZVhdhQoY5Zh2e LnaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530v+ybotYE5tlQJ1Kx5tczUHoa13F6FU5mXLJ9wagG+krbJScPa iWegBqkiVMyZxiD/f1y2V4NGVm2oWp3sjsiQlXryoOLw X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJws62X5lcBzZqVLZoufecPJxNBPbn4XECwLbYgEcG+EllxjCprxKM3w7bfXFMAkh7wr9sob8rVPNv0uzMVQF6w= X-Received: by 2002:a02:95a6:: with SMTP id b35mr448241jai.40.1592416139445; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:48:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> <20200617141857.b208232a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:48:48 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? To: Mario Lobo Cc: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nCHJ3bm4z480R X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=JyTPXgQr; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.83 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.009]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.16)[0.161]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.985]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:49:01 -0000 On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 1:43 PM Mario Lobo wrote: > > Poly; > > Your politeness, articulation and reasoning commands agreement. > > Too bad it was wasted on a trol. > +1 to everything you said. > Same vote for the reply to the OP for me. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 17:55:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6558635593A for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:55:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x842.google.com (mail-qt1-x842.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::842]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nCRB6gl0z48nP for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:55:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x842.google.com with SMTP id j32so2220200qte.10 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:55:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4scR2C3je/UYUCn280C8oRTQL4795KTAEaP+/CpzJN4=; b=VfeOnKDqp2qvJbb9SOEHtiJZe0nkbAWipEpOhzw8tVad70hxQ651UqMTXWwpuSiobR zqhO2GZh5iR36zKYyJ2iJkXXfkqd/X7zSVDBi4XkuTOa5av0Tsn1+FF7q2xbh28toEno jgbVzjrYGaDjSF4Nr4Onf666xlT1S2wDCWrQIbepc/zTHopKEd16alvCQUKOmgJKKMAl +G+z/6ir8g7s/zXo8URpgCbEIswBxVnpqc5auXmcT+d64Rkyrnt0GUxRxoIR82Fgeeth PbB0qNdQ5mWWPzA1guhgrti0Z2iEZbNSW0DBDRmLXcqbCbwJzHfaVHH+I/VNH7PKEWFV cE7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4scR2C3je/UYUCn280C8oRTQL4795KTAEaP+/CpzJN4=; b=DCXY83cgCSBs6wNtgWxEVba6dI1KY8ZA3j/2IKvsPQOsIulOzgHR6VHrYt6OR8egrU /D4VS0lrUcS6ILqXFIKcyHXXGhTQ+wRN6vSSNrcFEt3Oq7k9s0BX+lO1wG3NsnWjt4yR Lt8y6kpOWlHllU9CcUknJ2nyTeoRiuD/5/lclPcihxOTmXC2wBpECC6o5rgr3LBTc/3r qn0AhC2oPtaqlADDWhfGo2FNSFD9m5h0eXIuoyZCiDgyTSNvBMgOMMou7gpAZYidxSAI JBLaAEq2m5stE5NdPyZsl0maSHVFw38g+KR48C/i4v9OwmBXI7Y3QK1yjdqX0EZ2dqyW CIpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533bSTzjFrBWStaaD3d9Az/+v2u+xg/BKh/e/8e8BA4vYpfJHW97 ajrQ8t1tXST5cpWMcVaNNObaeRp99hcO1Spv6H3uVDhz9KE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy5iSRKYMPz0udh42Vm/9zdI7mu1mSmyP2yYyj7DwO3ugDT9bPtZJnV41sCLSnEm5MLW2R9HpuiqQWFaqot4iY= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:24b3:: with SMTP id s48mr207288qts.383.1592416549877; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:55:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> <20200617141857.b208232a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200617141857.b208232a.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Michael Sierchio Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:55:14 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? To: Polytropon Cc: malaizhichun@tom.com, FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nCRB6gl0z48nP X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=VfeOnKDq; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kudzu@tenebras.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::842) smtp.mailfrom=kudzu@tenebras.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.43)[-0.425]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.981]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tenebras.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.16)[0.160]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::842:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[tom.com,freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:55:51 -0000 On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 5:19 AM Polytropon wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800, kindu smith wrote: > > Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? The structure of FreeBSD is > > very good, such as the startup and directory structure, and the user > > island program. The only shortcoming is poor hardware support. This is > > mainly due to the lack of drivers provided by the kernel. > > While there are certain basic drivers in the kernel, the > majority of drivers is provided by loadable kernel modules, > either developed by the FreeBSD team itself, or available > from the ports collection. They use interfaces provided by > the kernel. > > The chief difference from my perspective is that it is possible in FreeBSD to create a monolithic kernel and prohibit the loading of kernel modules, foiling one step in the chain of a rootkit. It's especially convenient for embedded devices, security appliances, etc. Some features cannot work as loadable kernel modules, such as kernel NAT in ipfw supplied by LIBALIAS. --=20 "Well," Brahm=C4=81 said, "even after ten thousand explanations, a fool is = no wiser, but an intelligent person requires only two thousand five hundred." - The Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 18:03:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 195EF356328 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:03:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi1-x242.google.com (mail-oi1-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::242]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nCcB6TXmz4DSv for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:03:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kurt.buff@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi1-x242.google.com with SMTP id i74so2611766oib.0 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:03:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=0M7DtMaPVHtLL8DTc14FdsyBsNKK1D0VtRCNYUCmATE=; b=qrOeBW5pgxoyjyKqN86zHve1HavhID3IiSA2JiyvMedIfm4YDEr0qVEMNJop9uWI1C 5Y7zcggKwm2kQc0l3ge0o/JvPfTEHvAeTSEUfHvJIykJ3g1UkG9TEZ76BEU28XRtWyob pYVjd2+t7VKg4Gcmf3hd8BBflHoPidI8w9s4rLwGebdrpyyJb8EeMIFbvayTarozmEjC jhIjXv52fpimA6/EKFiQ/2UGmTDdCFIFPMC18yLfHsXS6+JaPbmO4g5xLxOh/x5PXIgs u00CmH7A6EISxGVarLyCEj5VQOC2ySHJ4dxF3dzDplwoA9ATr+aWVtTMmbA1VR/MMubd c+5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=0M7DtMaPVHtLL8DTc14FdsyBsNKK1D0VtRCNYUCmATE=; b=lyG8R+U0f4XC8Iq3Ff8V0xUbTJt2V2gRpUES8bo8F89bvqCB3RlOL9COmSZE/0ZJ78 UzCYQaGxUy9GGTqguPgN1PfqAzZk15608tb6qUCxEWG/4OOOimrY5xoC31NdYPDKmcpV pZem1QbziRiIJxAqG+SXHelnsJ2Qoje5IeWhX7+s39CAPzVUdPSxe3Owp4Yz9wnHzj7O CGVy16C6aT7n6LVzGNwBtrDGtf1GcSkBtOP4nzGb5XISdeqE1BzjyOBGVJ70ejEzwiRv bMDGOn0PE+FalNzVLyhp+TSNA/tdc1F7/y6W78LhqAZxviBUXrDpg6scCIgSk+YZVs0l CX/g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5310/iEG0djwNyFTBjVJy4VYsfQdkbqXEJ43AlGznDs+7mUnmIZd 8rT3HWXQFseZALd8+u1eW5VwvU36guLp1c2VFrOI+pxIF27hPg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxnaKucfzxL294xDoldgwe1X8wzOJ1xeHsG7QzvrXpt7ogVE8cex3MNfVWn488q7h2FEl6fay/GArexHhax+WU= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d58d:: with SMTP id m135mr8063404oig.102.1592417015623; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:03:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> <20200617141857.b208232a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: From: "Kurt Buff - GSEC, GCIH" Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:03:27 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nCcB6TXmz4DSv X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=qrOeBW5p; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kurtbuff@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::242 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kurtbuff@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.27 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.69)[-0.694]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.981]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::242:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.40)[0.402]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:03:43 -0000 On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 11:43 AM Mario Lobo wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:19 AM Polytropon wrote: > > > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800, kindu smith wrote: > > > Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? The structure of FreeBSD is > > > very good, such as the startup and directory structure, and the user > > > island program. The only shortcoming is poor hardware support. This is > > > mainly due to the lack of drivers provided by the kernel. Reading this thread, several thoughts came to mind, which might have only minimal bearing on the discussion, but perhaps OP might find them useful/amusing/provocative. JFTR, my thoughts do not imply anything regarding the relative merits of FreeBSD vs. Linux. I'm not primarily a *nix guy, and never have been, but use both freely, as my job requires, and prefer using FreeBSD at home, vs. Linux. - Linux is more properly known as GUN/Linux. GNU, in this context, is a recursive acronym, meaning "Gnu's Not Unix". This is pertinent, because considered from the perspective of lineage/heritage, FreeBSD (all of the BSDs) *are* Unix. Once might quibble about several assumptions in that statement, but for the purposes of this discussion, it's true enough, and brings to the fore the idea that FreeBSD and Linux are very different in critical ways. Others have pointed out the more technical reasons what this is so, but this bit of background might illuminate the topic a bit. - I started playing with Linux back in the '90s. I didn't like it much, and flitted from distro to distro, and wasn't terribly successful. I then started a job with a small startup which used FreeBSD for its platform. I got some tutoring from one of the devs (who was, and I think still is a kernel committer), and things just fell into place. i felt comfortable. It wasn't until several years later than I found an article that clarified my thoughts. It's old now, and therefore some of it is out of date, but I still point people at it: https://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/01 So, take the above for what it's worth. Kurt From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 18:12:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F3F1356DF9 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:12:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.dev) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nCnt6ptQz4Gwn for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:12:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.dev) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE71AA0E for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap21 ([10.202.2.71]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:05:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yuripv.dev; h= mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=kiL/L+BN2r5fmAJcO8LZ3nhNSYIU2Bm Tm0bpwfv8L6E=; b=oGqRfk5B5Qrq2uACY090jHLAUM0bVrwUrBCQam18kmXl9oN s5N1Nt+kLNvWo7J1ZPishSrBbzpxvgKNDHx9I9FANDw9W/CHfClHBUpNftEnPtUv +IN/xmYUKSCvcllSPiE3yNlmqz6Y1qJVNFcVNAAMofpYIRvvO8qVQg026tbfqI61 t9I//8cD8hqrO6kd1K1QyhB3fYhk3KiG4/GvxPVL3bu9kXaOTk8EUygKFrkukXZG +5P5QDDh+Y+nKWMURT5j84t48uvi68SIxODll7fz9LYZCWlAjggoAlh5iB/4LXVr V+aWxJaz+6s2X7+I1osuc7KQFuodh33XuVysoDA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=kiL/L+ BN2r5fmAJcO8LZ3nhNSYIU2BmTm0bpwfv8L6E=; b=Gj3fu+E1ify4SQu0q7HSFj 0o8RHTQ2gZ7r10wSuZOMpNRwuHS+COsvfcklgli3Dcmv5+1M3FCKy+QgqmTiLeTU JYcCDtyHynS2NKHIsyVWE2lxnC6dW3Sz0c0pC5EMKotD5WemjnzPfTAX08vc12u/ pmrhO5ef7XlhFR8KibAJKmcggZC+cMNRwXvxSc2e875gJYNFlbCPc6xCdX1NDdUD BeDN4u84AtAGUBESAEjcg6UPNUMBfzLoFeZUFcR9k9Jgr4mEyr4TBilVdId7ULkx HtmNpJ32wqLP6ADalq0lQ00tTF7jP8027L2nxFaLOBqq2jJFNIJRlfzMba0wxu8Q == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudejvddguddvtdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesth dtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdgjuhhrihcurfgrnhhkohhvfdcuoeihuhhrihhpvhes hihurhhiphhvrdguvghvqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeelhfevtdefkeffveehudetke eggfeuiedvvddvudegudefveeljeffgeelgfevteenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt necurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpeihuhhrihhpvheshihurhhiphhvrdguvghv X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 18C1E660085; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:05:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-529-g3ee424a-fm-20200611.001-g3ee424a1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <6fc1cf5e-040d-4a80-a0ec-22ee25edf4bd@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> <20200617141857.b208232a.freebsd@edvax.de> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:04:32 +0300 From: "Yuri Pankov" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nCnt6ptQz4Gwn X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yuripv.dev header.s=fm1 header.b=oGqRfk5B; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=Gj3fu+E1; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yuripv@yuripv.dev designates 64.147.123.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yuripv@yuripv.dev X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.71 / 15.00]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; SEM_URIBL_FRESH15(3.00)[yuripv.dev:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:64.147.123.19:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[64.147.123.19:from]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yuripv.dev:+,messagingengine.com:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.123.19:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[yuripv.dev:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.01)[0.010]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[yuripv.dev]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.93)[0.932]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.86)[0.861]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; MID_RHS_WWW(0.50)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:12:03 -0000 On Wed, Jun 17, 2020, at 8:55 PM, Michael Sierchio wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 5:19 AM Polytropon wrote: > > > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800, kindu smith wrote: > > > Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? The structure of FreeBSD is > > > very good, such as the startup and directory structure, and the user > > > island program. The only shortcoming is poor hardware support. This is > > > mainly due to the lack of drivers provided by the kernel. > > > > While there are certain basic drivers in the kernel, the > > majority of drivers is provided by loadable kernel modules, > > either developed by the FreeBSD team itself, or available > > from the ports collection. They use interfaces provided by > > the kernel. > > > > > The chief difference from my perspective is that it is possible in FreeBSD > to create a monolithic kernel and prohibit the loading of kernel modules, > foiling one step in the chain of a rootkit. It's especially convenient for > embedded devices, security appliances, etc. > > Some features cannot work as loadable kernel modules, such as kernel NAT in > ipfw supplied by LIBALIAS. FWIW: $ ls /boot/kernel/ipfw_nat* /boot/kernel/ipfw_nat.ko /boot/kernel/ipfw_nat64.ko From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 18:37:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5EF35785E for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:37:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nDMl0L9Zz4JZx for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:37:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MC3L9-1jbyqT1gAX-00CPnx; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:37:52 +0200 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:37:52 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Michael Sierchio Cc: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? Message-Id: <20200617203752.05e35582.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> <20200617141857.b208232a.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:StutaSjX9VtMLJvf/xOFrcJDP55IU73r4To4/iL8v03CXqRvEQJ nZsd9zDQsMg5YRTRBHG4wwn/dOPh8U5rQXMM4vtt77wfEw6FwdujDDb7JuCR5f+rcZ8gCgD oKlPdXjZmSayUoR6X93wTGv7P/DtykRWAgEi4M9vLdj382/uOX4OOFGmaPqtp7RsuP+R1jH M//mlHBue8SefkR0siA6w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:8Uw0P3V/iq0=:JKIfKZUX7QM5IeQp2yzOa6 qAvCMRbkKo/XZrGeyKEg9dH0Lityj5W4OSTkMvvLSJAPTuJJZImWJ3ufmqSG/BL69BkYTPQ6u ABDzdU5jxL2mXjAV8+eJidoGOq++E8BLiE9O8jfyjIN+6kRxagZaRrv3p7zzQftc2weliPCpE so6FynbkMGKdSOJF3YffrJ4SSqIPPXpgEn40u+34/gyWiML1fbqDb9EoFuaxhq9ZwSOd/GCc8 2ufG9t8RrPdBYtwSw5N53M0sjw3TFyKvoFL+0oH7QajaTALDwfzIyU6xI8Vxumzs0HXaFIXSO yYHO7kcdjYe2ymv3b7djZ/7VXLnG1dQ8Fox0CMI3RhvZ/4KgCi2nOPc7t/IJyGDrbXBcqknaI 3ldfoIbVwLr+PZOE7kQ6lF9wyc+xq3Qk0xl2meb38I8y/x2JEJiZCfX2vOJnzhXKk86dXYdp6 P0CAhp8TilFHgDikGfWIKURoslE21Y3Z6fqJqwly9vBi62177Wsi8atOKjv4EpVCrdQyBAtR5 GwqTRd7dE08R9eNbs5BR7iywskI2MmnO6hVKktRQ16L6MScsOrx8bmwpw7pTR8HXphshIlrdL r4pNHhb93G2wClbfaQrWYEsINjvvf9qeNB3xBUw5Z1NA6BkAz6UmSSG2Z9wLOrf5j32tbm4T6 IZ6Y8EAqMWRpyFBcwSJsbW5ScBwgNYHU1uBP6g9Vddrosm+hwlGIS/Tz9+9say1xRECm+M8uo 9skuM9ei3iNhPE/+LywMaVPZd9uCyIpijA8gqxatlSy5H+In8NSqaWQoDQRK4NQpASkBdnFxP HFCtXXnvH8qB5CYuSTI1CrSCnhKzvcCdNuC2vnP0upmbS8q23M= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nDMl0L9Zz4JZx X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.62 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.20)[0.196]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.44)[-0.445]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.47)[0.472]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:37:56 -0000 On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:55:14 -0700, Michael Sierchio wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 5:19 AM Polytropon wrote: > > > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800, kindu smith wrote: > > > Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? The structure of FreeBSD is > > > very good, such as the startup and directory structure, and the user > > > island program. The only shortcoming is poor hardware support. This is > > > mainly due to the lack of drivers provided by the kernel. > > > > While there are certain basic drivers in the kernel, the > > majority of drivers is provided by loadable kernel modules, > > either developed by the FreeBSD team itself, or available > > from the ports collection. They use interfaces provided by > > the kernel. > > > > > The chief difference from my perspective is that it is possible in FreeBSD > to create a monolithic kernel and prohibit the loading of kernel modules, > foiling one step in the chain of a rootkit. It's especially convenient for > embedded devices, security appliances, etc. Before the KLD infrastructure became that universal, it was quite common to create your kernel configuration file specifically for the hardware you wanted to run the system on, and add kernel features as needed, so everything and _only_ the needed components would be in the resulting kernel. Another option was to create a very minimalistic kernel, then build and load only the modules needed. Today the GENERIC kernel supports a lot of hardware out of the box, and required modules can often be loaded automatically, initiated by userland processes, if you want (like from a rc.conf setting or even dynamically via devd). You can still choose what fits your needs best. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 18:53:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3654B33008C for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:53:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gal.iecc.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nDjd4prpz4Kdp for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:53:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: (qmail 26273 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2020 18:53:24 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=669c.5eea66a4.k2006; bh=Q4Zyt/113TW45rO9nKnD3Z8d4ksF/hxyJ4YMv3fKbCo=; b=dYj1mrPd+TRPBaI6m5PeBVIZI4V1+R0cLESFGel+n6EtnLBCyHHy5+w53H805z32612sbc3PdD9J0tCju4t5TUwiYiBj/FneQoAgMazgYvzH8zwNpL1eGM8V4IE0djtyrjwZ646IbkwnO8utkUwqrRK0o0J73n75igRQOB3+2nbz2TkDHdevrRQ8j8dK9yOPmNzi+7kjcFde9WA8+73C/oH2dT23vsK7eoozwFm5nuJ045iwtbR+83BsyzLCozji Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 17 Jun 2020 18:53:24 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id B86B61B23798; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: 17 Jun 2020 14:53:23 -0400 Message-Id: <20200617185323.B86B61B23798@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nDjd4prpz4Kdp X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=iecc.com header.s=669c.5eea66a4.k2006 header.b=dYj1mrPd; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=iecc.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of johnl@iecc.com designates 2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=johnl@iecc.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.92 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[iecc.com:s=669c.5eea66a4.k2006]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.003]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[iecc.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:470:1f07:1126::/64:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.974]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[iecc.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[iecc.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.44)[-0.444]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 18:53:26 -0000 In article , Michael Sierchio wrote: >The chief difference from my perspective is that it is possible in FreeBSD >to create a monolithic kernel and prohibit the loading of kernel modules, >foiling one step in the chain of a rootkit. It's especially convenient for >embedded devices, security appliances, etc. There's also the rather important difference that FreeBSD uses a BSD license rather than the GPL, which makes it a lot more practical for devices that are shipped as appliances. R's, John From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 19:07:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01AD4330CB2 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:07:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from fedex2.jetcafe.org (fedex2.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "fedex2.jetcafe.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nF1S0Nq5z4LTb for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:07:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) X-Envelope-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from bigus.dream-tech.com (bigus.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.7]) by fedex2.jetcafe.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05HJ6oOZ011116 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:06:50 -0700 From: Dave Hayes To: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Openness vs. Comfort Message-ID: <20200617120650.56b35374@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1 ( out of 6) ALL_TRUSTED,SHORTCIRCUIT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin version 3.4.4-jetcafeglobal X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.83 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nF1S0Nq5z4LTb X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dave@jetcafe.org designates 205.147.26.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dave@jetcafe.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.35 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.931]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.979]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jetcafe.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.14)[-0.139]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7397, ipnet:205.147.0.0/18, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:07:09 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:37:42 +0200 Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> wrote: > My sole purpose was to provide you with an insight of how FreeBSD and > its community could be perceived by an outsider in 2020. I would be careful about confusing a perception of the community with the actual position of the community in general. As the number in a community grows large, human genetic diversity being what it is, you begin to include people who are much more vocal about specific issues than the average community member. If the average community member does not feel the need to be vocal, this tends to create a perceptual illusion where the worldviews of the vocal seem to be the worldviews of the community. This is often not the case. > It means FreeBSD imposes on its new users a tremendous cost - a cost > which is incurred only ONCE for each Linux distribution for the benefit > of all its users. FreeBSD, like any complex system, requires that one devote effort to learning. In my experience it has never been a system for the average human; rather it caters to the computer scientist (or IT professional). You can achieve some technical solutions in FreeBSD that you cannot achieve anywhere else. This is not to say that FreeBSD is without it's community problems or technical issues, but it is at least driven by mostly scientific (rather than profit) motives. This is one of my philosophical reasons for using it; note that this idea is glaringly not true with other, more popular, operating systems...Linux included. I sincerely hope you can solve your apparent issues and learn to enjoy this OS as I do. :) -- Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>>> *The opinions expressed above are entirely my own* <<<< Most anything that annoys you is a mirror. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 19:11:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0743307FE for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:11:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from fedex2.jetcafe.org (fedex2.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "fedex2.jetcafe.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nF6v1mpBz4LtK for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:11:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) X-Envelope-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from bigus.dream-tech.com (bigus.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.7]) by fedex2.jetcafe.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05HJBnKT064583 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:11:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:11:49 -0700 From: Dave Hayes To: kindu smith Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? Message-ID: <20200617121149.5eef994e@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1 ( out of 6) ALL_TRUSTED,SHORTCIRCUIT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin version 3.4.4-jetcafeglobal X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.83 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nF6v1mpBz4LtK X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dave@jetcafe.org designates 205.147.26.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dave@jetcafe.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.02 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.84)[-0.842]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.930]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jetcafe.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.055]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[tom.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7397, ipnet:205.147.0.0/18, country:US]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:11:52 -0000 On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800 kindu smith wrote: > I think the reason why FreeBSD has reduced the number of users is > because it does not take care of the experience of ordinary users, and > it takes the opposite path from a server, cloud to users. Positioning > such an excellent operating system as just server usage has greatly > reduced its popularity. You presume that popularity is a necessary or sufficient condition for usability. This is just not true. Popularity is not relevant to good software engineering. -- Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>>> *The opinions expressed above are entirely my own* <<<< Going to church does not make a person religious, nor does going to school make a person educated, any more than going to a garage makes a person a car. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 19:30:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58207331EA6 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:30:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com (mail-qk1-x736.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nFXH4fr9z4N2t for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:30:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id 205so3231922qkg.3 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:30:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Y/ahvt90TdQpbRjxT+lkb02x4cq0DvuLAwAdH3rDUVE=; b=GW9Oe3Tj5Ns5IpFK1EeANe3iZRfQsUotREGJ5bzABIDZ6qDF96Np15gVxZo2DnweSP dJQkNbr2bCKRmadSMySYAcipa8lmMh/FlpsRdM2vbpXyd87t7XDu84NEw5kJFja7Im7n tkOkoeWQ7u8cDR5hy+qAh1Eb9+2O4xXlEohEEcLIz8oemQs6plaAhjPEBaPepDLW9iua N6DfQaLGUMGJKu1cYlZpOQN2KAX+FofM9i2z5eyTH6tBYxmQs7rb8wZFsDmJyk2AvXof 2RfGNb6D8bSKdUvWXrTys/MQaiRg5RsExeVEb4ieo5cvKjGNH9SONhZlMPH5o2kGuGrc ZqlQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Y/ahvt90TdQpbRjxT+lkb02x4cq0DvuLAwAdH3rDUVE=; b=DiRQtyajh+T2srOGXjbLb3RDNa7Hu4zDpWdxxGkVR6yD2DMvngCOtVTlSnHVUbe9Ly QhsvasSa//4A2VBqh+RrODUkAbptWBC1zvjaQJUW1Ke6Hkq4kkSl05Tyv6TrJfSJHdIs CSXOpJQkM2OYaKWrfpIXFULR9Kk6us0e5zCbWuTHtkRzWxYa2RKtlJfv/zdhxdP+r/IS JnVjiwHIX+7YkT5DVLBSV1TgToRrcBFP9knlG+3aixfvPuhCqxt9wvfXUX4ulLNVYp61 u4/YfhQ+3yTMcsfU8AsVu+E5xb4myE7bm3VHKIzkHfaKwIXNKvcY/CvrVbuEGdLvfTI8 n7AQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532OxrNMAT3ilicmXTKGo6Wr/1pXmA9L6IHtuY2SS+M4rtUPXzW6 W1raIsZvVHYZP0zyJvZL0Lc2Dm0HeVKVZqfRf3RJIOKNXEY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzpAeG1Ogci9fGFA6kyR2l2S2xYb3qreg1i+38J4nOD9OamGaxtGj2ZD+QMCg4KRaD0OSfzfIzI5ebsFidtFlg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:90f:: with SMTP id v15mr184306qkv.399.1592422222584; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:30:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> <20200617141857.b208232a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200617203752.05e35582.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200617203752.05e35582.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Michael Sierchio Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:29:46 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nFXH4fr9z4N2t X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=GW9Oe3Tj; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kudzu@tenebras.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::736) smtp.mailfrom=kudzu@tenebras.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.69)[-0.686]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.08)[0.075]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.976]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tenebras.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::736:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:30:24 -0000 On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 11:37 AM Polytropon wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:55:14 -0700, Michael Sierchio wrote: > > > The chief difference from my perspective is that it is possible in > FreeBSD > > to create a monolithic kernel and prohibit the loading of kernel module= s, > > foiling one step in the chain of a rootkit. It's especially convenient > for > > embedded devices, security appliances, etc. > > Before the KLD infrastructure became that universal, > it was quite common to create your kernel configuration > file specifically for the hardware you wanted to run > the system on, and add kernel features as needed, so > everything and _only_ the needed components would be > in the resulting kernel. > > Another option was to create a very minimalistic kernel, > then build and load only the modules needed. > > Today the GENERIC kernel supports a lot of hardware > out of the box, and required modules can often be > loaded automatically, initiated by userland processes, > if you want (like from a rc.conf setting or even > dynamically via devd). > > You can still choose what fits your needs best. :-) > Exactly and precisely. The custom kernel that contains only hardware options that are present is a fraction of the size of GENERIC. > > > > > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > --=20 "Well," Brahm=C4=81 said, "even after ten thousand explanations, a fool is = no wiser, but an intelligent person requires only two thousand five hundred." - The Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 19:35:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4A14332D1C for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:35:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hruodr@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x62c.google.com (mail-ej1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nFfG5gfBz4NSx for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:35:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hruodr@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id k11so3797881ejr.9 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:35:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=UuK6B9fChdGa1yf8LTAhiJAmEDb7vaANlIEWgxcdHCs=; b=NyQXpsvrNOpJFYdIwzgvGGtusM4+hx1EvNZSTEuFGYnzeuHasboqQauIiag82gBcNv +EKiu3ekPsGDU0jUsR27auuP9Jx+ga9c8qa8O5ogquAiYHoz433OchzyVHUvIo+OYLCV bwQtSpxyouxEXFAD/JyNr8IqdBOOPgiIJDf1RM4lOnCneZ3yY2YEJdYr2truAwY9kzGZ VgqmSWpc6P/wn/Gc2fWDhwcSHXmkHClgDlIXMl8d8TetK4IrHCGW7SVwY2W9o+ZJ3qDS MZjcKKoj1CqP/011ftjUGbJZujzcyKD1Nebtc0aziwXwHh4UM8Kjb9JSBLIvH5k+uQa/ kPTQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:user-agent :mime-version; bh=UuK6B9fChdGa1yf8LTAhiJAmEDb7vaANlIEWgxcdHCs=; b=AubBdeY7kfcBRwWbkTt7G30bkl1iP7LDCBBkwJl/YEYBUz9oGWUKeiYDRx436nepsb jF9lfgWCQVhA2jtRtUqF3td7W7N3jIdnMBBfjlR2AC2B70CkXko13XFZJpNjroBVr9MK GBW7rAAH6rqODOxeuYbu+p18wXVDGXCFNcLgsH3H1N0LI+Zjk2oEVk32frz7Hm/dEEOg FdAFgm0GYKdNuqgsrHZPFUk2S2rPQklvs+ZCrda08EAASMRIzpTEYErbRvlg2qtOD2q6 lTLwY7WOnN2VJLCN8uaHXW0soKI4OTGMwG7bXxgGo4OFFvmGHooXPahQunMx3VptkOtP 3C2g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531bOlMxX53cG+g0XBinBhjyEiV5l1stgaFRQw+QW2nlNd5LZ+M5 zFz5FoMi4rbwjE9KB1TgnX4tCxjz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxPd99ds2QKGwV2UIs8CPEs7yawNwpd3edTBIIo+gj8EesUyz57iKRt2EL/cIiY4D9ki2OMfg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:a0f:: with SMTP id w15mr752123ejf.332.1592422533375; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fbsd.fritz.box (dslb-178-012-026-183.178.012.pools.vodafone-ip.de. [178.12.26.183]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t9sm619832ejy.43.2020.06.17.12.35.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:34:10 +0000 (UTC) From: Roderick To: Michael Sierchio cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Infinite stupid threads ... Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (BSF 419 2020-04-12) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nFfG5gfBz4NSx X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=NyQXpsvr; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hruodr@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::62c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hruodr@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.97 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.26.183:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.976]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.01)[0.006]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::62c:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:35:35 -0000 Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? .... Perhaps I will have to unsubsribe. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 19:44:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B35F533320C for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:44:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xxjack12xx@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qv1-xf33.google.com (mail-qv1-xf33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nFs60FBwz4Nht for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:44:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xxjack12xx@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qv1-xf33.google.com with SMTP id e2so1637992qvw.7 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jE7fQNMwBsCEQ/O6ZfxXFL7IrvVGIP94D+XgACsrdW0=; b=C0w99n/XV+7+cGGfnq9PT4GBNwbCOGEodn0sgWuQwpRFnP4QgRnMqeTgLcNa/mW8rO SupI6lfBdVwq4yLgEsF25v8IJ2cCHof4NPScelix+VPRPxcejooDJoyoFXXNYm2UF4Jl cKoFAY6t5Pi3of4HM5Eony1WM4oPNLnns3Kia0jNuPGRXQcGJlZTuAJ5vdpEyLlszLNo LHFlbpHc9CxrqRBeS9xXfHrnXWF5r06KZLRhwIPE/QEdf6OgsCffDAiWWm9+XKdrJzUG RJSxhntgkJv8/pB5xVCkPEuU1879wVDl3syq32GBMOuKnu4Z/cJpUyaFNf11bojldYHe bTwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jE7fQNMwBsCEQ/O6ZfxXFL7IrvVGIP94D+XgACsrdW0=; b=ekKQ+3UhyI3g91kz9gT/5Yl9N2v+zeZjBTtqTkAAxJBsvqiDyq4Q0HRR4aRGQ9q/nM 9QNmaSHoUYY0R3QZjqwW69uDwmlHMtBhPbMOuMbsQr5eJO2yaq1fecE5y/7Q4fBChhzk Qs5pLNohCtFkSCCRB7XEfU0UurYzjKX14bn+3yWzY5UZK57FcKCV8ouie/GjoQ6ek0FW m1sfQatqdvwt2dWZ1C5k2x0KXbdrh+CJxdOOaZm1tqGiVznRCx1/6oINFqjx1zbckmdz VeC2SMVWR9dC1ZDdv0TdBf8ggT15o94wsa3Vb6dVXyivtW8d7vyUbZ/XMQDrhTrEFSqc d6sQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532oNNnZhZg9oA/an4Dchj422dxkCNd/E6nKEVPn+3ZvCQ5dRQd5 rjYnWKclMUVWvRE6TAK1/Bm+tpQBu3PVIjn2Fj8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyt2ag6jttWaq8jjtJKO+BdZk6ah8fJG4k4Y/qnxpR43g6jcG9dw+qMAYD/k4NU8pxJvbLBazjFmbBeMheM+UM= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4d09:: with SMTP id l9mr324596qvl.8.1592423097168; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Jack L." Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:44:09 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Infinite stupid threads ... To: Roderick Cc: Michael Sierchio , Polytropon , FreeBSD Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nFs60FBwz4Nht X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=C0w99n/X; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of xxjack12xx@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f33 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=xxjack12xx@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.83 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.988]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.16)[0.155]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f33:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:44:58 -0000 or filter to the trash On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 12:35 PM Roderick wrote: > > > Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd > Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? > .... > > Perhaps I will have to unsubsribe. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 19:57:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D5ED333A8C for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:57:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000b75039.a61fb44b9c98b7dd167b0337e3849513@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nG7q04zlz4Q2s for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:57:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000b75039.a61fb44b9c98b7dd167b0337e3849513@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592423863; x=1595015863; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=w5exwTfw4RNezaFv7HHNSxu16CdpW00+fF8F8yhjSIk=; b=tfp/zosSK6p3GO0/kFjhffunZdELBJ3r4w7PDQ/GT+Vb5Jfd3ttBfkJow2FZFnLbG5Jf94xHE+4OsD11vvWvCjaNvlNhBaaZ6Z8gAQRVApP6hZvZEFFF8PkdoQa56+BsC68HaL4/CHR6F0tf6W4LWprnUVPDY7Q5I9cHSZaWM3o= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDBiNzUwMzkuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.h.in.socketlabs.com (r2.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.12]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 15:57:35 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 15:57:33 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jleBg-000HhN-LN; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:57:32 +0100 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:57:32 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: malaizhichun@tom.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? Message-Id: <20200617205732.58394b1570280c7959a01cd4@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nG7q04zlz4Q2s X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=tfp/zosS; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20000b75039.a61fb44b9c98b7dd167b0337e3849513@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20000b75039.a61fb44b9c98b7dd167b0337e3849513@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.25 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.014]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.979]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.55)[-0.553]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[tom.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000b75039.a61fb44b9c98b7dd167b0337e3849513@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000b75039.a61fb44b9c98b7dd167b0337e3849513@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:57:44 -0000 On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800 kindu smith wrote: > Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? The most fundamental reason that FreeBSD does not use *any* code from the Linux kernel is the GPL which is fundamentally incompatible with the BSD license. There was MirosBSD which was BSD userland running on a Linux kernel but the project has been abandoned for some years. Personally I think it is a very good thing that there are several essentially independent code bases that implement OSs that I'm happy to consider unix. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 20:03:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20B5333ED9 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:03:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x729.google.com (mail-qk1-x729.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::729]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nGGR1JGpz4QPS for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:03:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x729.google.com with SMTP id 205so3336330qkg.3 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:03:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Tip87qeBHpUbV6kTS8OUpi2Gj5lSeNjE1MkdaCKPW0U=; b=CvR9WjuEhR4IY9hxBDemtlH9w1mq+tTX2uq2ugK2s6PVMSM4VmRHcx9PFLgwlE5Nl6 byOHQ/AmKQ6w41PByr+7nThUl6ATku4OA4+D/E5oUZ1/Ds3q4aTjO+Jg12xY5tzo8Upa dIx2rxAFprgty/PJccq1/yyAwmrNr/Qz7pyz43KeHOSQmZ5FEelBOTbK+kMf/LkqSdNq bcfmFQGi4lMAIX7XwM0/A9UMdF8bJDsV17E/phMDdoD43WDlSv01ThQ1qCqtaLTSev/b qmNMLUFS3S/jajAlEy90QZzuZFz+PKWEuIToZAHB4qn7UEn7F5Pp5mMyhkU3eS46tStm 1rGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Tip87qeBHpUbV6kTS8OUpi2Gj5lSeNjE1MkdaCKPW0U=; b=gi9BtjZaIvyLxcgkdopprW5b26EVHOG+7BvmuID+Bg72zRWqvuAmkWzkp8m4HXQtA5 wF9DDOO5qlEHVpn5D0vnU5C3TpzAB4r6mCkwVCTK1fFZ0wq4VxncpR6EkoIgVdmsZem4 DL9ruEc6SbMzRzdEGMNQTjyuHqJuMhRKjmYPl5+bzJ9Ps88vfmuU39lErPP9KRC2QXda s6Je6BlB/KD/v2bLsQSekRCQ8jW8DQwpA/UknnOvJWUmLjxJ/cCLhh/Xr7knloRHJ3J3 LV1MbinAl/4MmL/ArNmBHPMLP9yJxhbJRSIxJKH71JhV5wnZUTZqv201SLcfni444Hi/ eXTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Rd3LWY9XzHeSWsmsD869OZjYVOgidf49bcG9Fx9MEIT14dCYN CKWx1yqOO6NjxaZHNsi/tehNrf/V/eLeEbamO2nNFg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwwgCpwJmJV+0JV3ppPj912CQeW56CwEnRvCayBFKfgisJKdix65TlFIurQmsDy1sIpzMut1XFk8FMIaUFicYA= X-Received: by 2002:a37:9d8e:: with SMTP id g136mr333870qke.25.1592424205546; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:03:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Michael Sierchio Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:02:49 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Infinite stupid threads ... To: Roderick Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nGGR1JGpz4QPS X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=CvR9WjuE; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kudzu@tenebras.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::729) smtp.mailfrom=kudzu@tenebras.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.60 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.34)[-0.336]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.00)[0.004]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.963]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tenebras.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::729:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:03:27 -0000 I do like the fact that sometimes troll-initiated threads get hijacked by thoughtful discourse. Any discussion of etiquette is doomed. On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 12:35 PM Roderick wrote: > > Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd > Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? > .... > > Perhaps I will have to unsubsribe. > --=20 "Well," Brahm=C4=81 said, "even after ten thousand explanations, a fool is = no wiser, but an intelligent person requires only two thousand five hundred." - The Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 20:35:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914F933516E for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:35:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from fedex2.jetcafe.org (fedex2.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "fedex2.jetcafe.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nGzR4wNYz4SvP for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:35:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) X-Envelope-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from bigus.dream-tech.com (bigus.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.7]) by fedex2.jetcafe.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05HKZPIx002197 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:35:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:35:25 -0700 From: Dave Hayes To: Michael Sierchio Cc: Roderick , Polytropon , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Infinite stupid threads ... Message-ID: <20200617133525.4cd210d3@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1 ( out of 6) ALL_TRUSTED,SHORTCIRCUIT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin version 3.4.4-jetcafeglobal X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.83 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nGzR4wNYz4SvP X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dave@jetcafe.org designates 205.147.26.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dave@jetcafe.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.12 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.888]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.982]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jetcafe.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.046]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7397, ipnet:205.147.0.0/18, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,edvax.de,freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:35:32 -0000 On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:02:49 -0700 Michael Sierchio wrote: > I do like the fact that sometimes troll-initiated threads get hijacked by > thoughtful discourse. This is the exact reason I like to watch threads and occasionally respond. Personally, I find the word "troll" overused and meaningless. Only the very old school know what a -real- troll is. > Any discussion of etiquette is doomed. Of course it is. Etiquette is an arbitrary subjective standard, and there exists one set of those standards for each human on the planet. Very few of these sets are exactly equivalent. Given that it appears it's humanity's nature to conflict with each other, disagreement about standards is inevitable. As an example of arbitrary etiquette, I personally find this to be less than polite: > > Perhaps I will have to unsubsribe. Consider that if someone really became fed up with the conversation, unsubscribing would be done with no word at all. There is really no reason that I can see to tell others you are unsubscribing; unless you want to attempt to coerce them into observing arbitrary standards of right posting and wrong posting ... "or you'll leave". We would all do a lot better to control ourselves rather than try to control others. It's a far more reliable methodology.:) -- Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>>> *The opinions expressed above are entirely my own* <<<< Nasrudin went into a bank with a check to cash. "Can you identify yourself?" asked the clerk. Nasrudin took out a mirror and peered into it. "Yes, that's me alright." From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 20:47:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3E833566C for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:47:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nHFG2DZ3z4TcY for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:47:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id w3so3447916qkb.6 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:47:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mdza3R4RkbHO81DT7Drfw9ei7jV8Syhv+j6vgvmCXP0=; b=1ruU9S3vAU7E1jVqUDa+v+FdOZJROnbNNYk3lG9vuwt7de2FuQvjH1nDj9LSs03WzW mu/3FogDNC2GdZXjMisg3vwv6aVhN6M9X/WbIfog4Z/D7D5IjRKke/tYSKbve1K7F8zj TcT5BlU7rimIa0NJKF/BDTqrukhKuxWuutcWbJKvd8638YPa4Cr59bG96N16l6/Ivv8P Xc4X+v58mes98p8HBsdGSytWFvaQj8j0iYl7O6V1IGJLyoZxLLW+CMWoevQAeOMLcEny 6sTHop4YTa34SKV+25jbEx0wj2XNhCfi/OFUksFvpCcIQ3RJfoe/HglyreJTDKOqWrN3 eguw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mdza3R4RkbHO81DT7Drfw9ei7jV8Syhv+j6vgvmCXP0=; b=tOCGwx2bjtN/sq+JYj7NqlSiaM5+Czzaz9WjYqpGbzdlo0z7hckRJkomAj8dk1D92h qRLvw2f5QywuY20djG6yx4WpmEz82+LzcjBrqaEBEjpAW4AD5K4bcdAKoyyi3Wb3puzb AB7bky/PC2XlepFWYyOjdEokua41prpTH8SttfT4JE2DM+weZbKlRFLXiGHECZVbGvOk MzIIrk42qC+MdEIRF+FFNRlHjezFb8QAwolDa+uMXa2gfPZH6qisNYvHkJ7ae886cj11 7HlXLfuveWkT32lNqMHuWCRz3Cz0zXr6jwzDtFDz+e8GK0wUC2hUnRC90kdcymiRpKqb /P+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Kz8mY7avJNYRAIJvGRbsSNAIPeByI2a1zTIRYJpXn3qYUhgnF VuSJC3rv0u3biB0Jca/ZaSUwrXkIqMuBBl4ZQPvYwE0QErI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzRs5TXAIP+dLT7XdxbOm9boaAIq1XTeGwAq+ZeeENcpBAG4h6Knksow/9NltrOym77TYOOU1qj0aPYyA9xvnk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:22b2:: with SMTP id p18mr509272qkh.460.1592426849230; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:47:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> <20200617205732.58394b1570280c7959a01cd4@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200617205732.58394b1570280c7959a01cd4@sohara.org> From: Michael Sierchio Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:46:53 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: malaizhichun@tom.com, FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nHFG2DZ3z4TcY X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=1ruU9S3v; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kudzu@tenebras.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::732) smtp.mailfrom=kudzu@tenebras.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.65 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.48)[-0.484]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.983]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tenebras.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.12)[0.116]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::732:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[tom.com,freebsd.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:47:31 -0000 On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 12:58 PM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:33:25 +0800 > kindu smith wrote: > > > Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? > > The most fundamental reason that FreeBSD does not use *any* code > from the Linux kernel is the GPL which is fundamentally incompatible with > the BSD license. > > There was MirosBSD which was BSD userland running on a Linux kern= el > but the project has been abandoned for some years. > OS X is XNU / Mach but much of the userland is FreeBSD-ish. --=20 "Well," Brahm=C4=81 said, "even after ten thousand explanations, a fool is = no wiser, but an intelligent person requires only two thousand five hundred." - The Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 20:53:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D400335E13 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:53:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000bbad45.bcf845961d9880eeace9be38417c9fe7@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nHMd60Fpz4TxB for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:53:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000bbad45.bcf845961d9880eeace9be38417c9fe7@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592427182; x=1595019182; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=2ahB0kVSE32hTonDsKswWLnEywzNMfxtuWW2/KTT/38=; b=XYPj+d087Sy6nJuruPWADRiOTvjxGFGY+PKcceUdlL5cDvjPLXTEM/jp/+Iid6vBMHIBntjzCJFkOnxPYhDDCPxqkoVzhKVt/4GKLuCIND5DsUokJJxzcha6+WRDkfUb4NfpHPvELY9sc3YvHOd81TNFbJ1uzdgMmReF7a6TXP8= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDBiYmFkNDUuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r1.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r1.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.1]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:52:56 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:52:55 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jlf3F-000Hrs-Mx for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:52:53 +0100 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:52:53 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Infinite stupid threads ... Message-Id: <20200617215253.661a2e0cf24d1fb45181d2c8@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200617133525.4cd210d3@bigus.dream-tech.com> References: <20200617133525.4cd210d3@bigus.dream-tech.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nHMd60Fpz4TxB X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=XYPj+d08; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20000bbad45.bcf845961d9880eeace9be38417c9fe7@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20000bbad45.bcf845961d9880eeace9be38417c9fe7@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.990]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.988]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.03)[0.035]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000bbad45.bcf845961d9880eeace9be38417c9fe7@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000bbad45.bcf845961d9880eeace9be38417c9fe7@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:53:02 -0000 On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:35:25 -0700 Dave Hayes wrote: > Personally, I find the word "troll" overused and meaningless. Only the > very old school know what a -real- troll is. And some of them could be fun. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 20:54:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81337335C63 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:54:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from mail-qv1-xf34.google.com (mail-qv1-xf34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f34]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nHPZ2VJ0z4VPt for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:54:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: by mail-qv1-xf34.google.com with SMTP id r16so1747160qvm.6 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:54:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=46ZWxLlvoNE78PUZcfN/i8MJxA8VQjA98fRVwjrqfb0=; b=GVVNEV8bNWCnPTApXG7nfjiLbWFQ3meveQub9jh8WQ2HO8wuVwC5Lge2grx3XVXvIF XYFj6w4/S5IbBN4EhMhe5O0KaXO8ZvTGlvL3i3/NBbNk/faS6CEwIEfIix4JSs+ZyxXW JA9/sDS+4svOD4msgj99ZPIHapqpQvcoemY8/ZPZHoFA49LbNBkfAgO+dymJuqEvRtRg G7T3zsxblh5kFPw8fmtDHIna8vY5bxj4xWs/0z6mbyS91iE310iEtYPjAPMGX1NdKiZy 4ywMDalxrroXN7kd1j7DAGmNvu8SoIOc+SRlDvHeQ9W8D9Oisdf/tCuWaToYawtffrgN MxYQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=46ZWxLlvoNE78PUZcfN/i8MJxA8VQjA98fRVwjrqfb0=; b=JLedDfSS04HBC0LimUx8sR/ZZ6RHnCj8oMun1csYKUa6vHBUsskkJyKuxGdjbaW66b VDRCZ7JkVrujox9BE79pB68m8mCoTNnI8jXE0I9Emd1gyiqzvfxPorilgQP+BEJlVXLC SAeP7jWiLmNGX8QQKdsdlmbkxL+z12kR4ZrI6HRLP5i+ha5+QUZ5mj8zbQxZQVUwUzUK tQrjfA40xeluUGRPpyG3CP82vfWGFIoCJdpNp7R70oWS/0wDSBtta/W0JPcojNfyqV6R bbQx00Z2s96KtDgFKat4PUwDTDntK4CyAmsXBxTrczKR32QhXBKmKNYY5In+xZ0aIKXQ BVWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531tmMj6I0QQOu1F6TmoqajBHDD4geH2z/1KxiSm9Y8UGUPIz3oE OZ2bL3NZezB161sdaOVI4LTPyvxdJU4GXuvGEK+h0w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy5Qc2ndVcjdVmVmSAISL4zHyE2lsj4ujoN8d7n9n9qBNqDhfMR7QtpiYOrB2bSins9EKuZTyH5gg4uSL5uMpg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:2ae:: with SMTP id m14mr516675qvv.185.1592427281302; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:54:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200617133525.4cd210d3@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: <20200617133525.4cd210d3@bigus.dream-tech.com> From: Michael Sierchio Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:54:05 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Infinite stupid threads ... To: Dave Hayes Cc: Roderick , Polytropon , FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nHPZ2VJ0z4VPt X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=GVVNEV8b; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kudzu@tenebras.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f34) smtp.mailfrom=kudzu@tenebras.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.74 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.66)[-0.659]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.21)[0.211]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tenebras.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f34:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,edvax.de,freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:54:43 -0000 On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 1:35 PM Dave Hayes wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:02:49 -0700 > Michael Sierchio wrote: > > I do like the fact that sometimes troll-initiated threads get hijacked = by > > thoughtful discourse. > > This is the exact reason I like to watch threads and occasionally respond= . > > Personally, I find the word "troll" overused and meaningless. Only the > very old > school know what a -real- troll is. > I'm so old, I fart dust. My first USENET post was in 1983. > > Any discussion of etiquette is doomed. > > Of course it is. Etiquette is an arbitrary subjective standard, Respectfully, I beg to differ. Etiquette is a customary code of polite behavior. Consider it, in this context, to be the rules of the game for discourse, and the analogy is apt =E2=80=93 it's hard to play tennis if you= don't agree on the rules. Therefore rules of etiquette should be few in number, and easy to remember, and reinforced regularly. There are cultural and linguistic and generational divides here, so etiquette helps define the neutral ground of our colloquy. --=20 "Well," Brahm=C4=81 said, "even after ten thousand explanations, a fool is = no wiser, but an intelligent person requires only two thousand five hundred." - The Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 20:59:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276AD3361A0 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:59:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nHVj3ghYz4VX4 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:59:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id e16so2772043qtg.0 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=lbEsr2ay9w1VxkUYbYIEuFWdUD56YjQEse3ipPImBWE=; b=Pr3ENF6cjjDiX+QKF0OsoYKLkFHCi6kXnLAC6xUV5DFGVEREb8kmVfiOZRssI+nDyS bUCgLG/IBP2e4K8ZrPTmVUrPDWfBmO043SfRVFoyF/PUpO05jfWm1T8xneICI5zA8+aJ D2DXKpKTf0x7NYzOUOKjAG2Nh/pjK8aW57Lj0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=lbEsr2ay9w1VxkUYbYIEuFWdUD56YjQEse3ipPImBWE=; b=DzU346zQBo9X7RhYUjigkCde0rdvMoYOc/Kg0gQK8ktTFWCuSfoLl+TK7FvI8oh6q/ o2gnljbU14Z7wKD3/WtOkJXG2eKQsy30cEgKP0b8BhzfO5eUXwwcHDjYoPE+t7MAcBVG 4BIbDH0eOd/y/X/ntRDAm0KcSns1hzUOVc84H/E8W7UoR6RDafgRSTx0yFCzGH4ac6Vt 6CLWBI4MBjVTanquSu6VMWwbBoxT06RrT2tJUa4bUmMyPONRTGrWmzzT4qzIefVqNUSM ga7dJ/9gjUcIEZEL3hEdni2kzugeE8iHPFylNGNrvW42ak94XldiUY6fO3q/4RVaslhS /14g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530PC3RIPtivM6voB3Y60Rj9FIwQfGofqD4MCmwWnpY8Ri0w+TGA pKGZS0y+QNMvRuxN2kKKtf3GGdoVQiE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyyzyGUhZ385YEo07P45TD2kJkf8FxoB5CQoNvYDzP6VYqqg7zyg2vpTKOrAwH8baY7RqJD0A== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:6f79:: with SMTP id u25mr1082477qtv.183.1592427547843; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n2sm1011676qtp.45.2020.06.17.13.59.05 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49nHVd0SNYz4T02 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:58:53 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 Message-ID: <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/DhGo1sfpjXn6awVTW2c9CEE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nHVj3ghYz4VX4 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=Pr3ENF6c; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::832 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.97 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.88)[-0.884]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.968]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.42)[0.423]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::832:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:59:11 -0000 --Sig_/DhGo1sfpjXn6awVTW2c9CEE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:46:51 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 1:42 PM Jerry wrote: > >> Due to a long standing bug, >> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D237666, I am unable >> to use FreeBSD 12.x. >> =20 > >Been fixed in 12.X for eons (the last bug report was on a beta >version). Also bsd-update is really not the "right" way (it is a >supported way but not the prefered way). Do the update from sources >and you should have no problem (I have done the same upgrade on 5 >machines now with no issue). That bug existed until at lest 5/16 when I last attempted to install 12.1 on the system. Not exactly eons. Furthermore, if it has been fixed, why is it still open? Please supply actual proof, not conjecture, that it is fix. I have no intention of wasting valuable time on bad info. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/DhGo1sfpjXn6awVTW2c9CEE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7qhBEACgkQOHMGOIfe xWS7UAf+Kh9UsCfvO5nfMYSeCl+pnts7DHOO5QorkHglBEqn0xZ/k0/TS+6Eu5Qe es5mvye49buA5t6bk0MtGYvuFLNanZDU7MfbYJwkzu5TfG1SL8S3+on8PbaQcT82 lUU+YI92ynhQf6d5N89XfqQQdlpmz68F8K3ZMHfeL5OdnyKLbpZVZRUbSdPxoUtx Jmod6kE/0QqwakjMzHtvwBjF5j0osi8hIXkzrC9pgxqRDmFK4rPLu3KCubetK5Sx n5MG3wJTKO1vF3MHcYWUgkINvIwTU1jAZVpf+CsnVplp7DR+RZTqaGo0ZF5Pakmz SEXaTW1MvMSg1Z74irhtOP/t5zFBng== =V6wT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/DhGo1sfpjXn6awVTW2c9CEE-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 21:12:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 477833364F7 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:12:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nHpH6jlSz4WjK for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:12:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id i25so4695254iog.0 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:12:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=TIyFKGwr79Ks8Uhfw8s1zi5kX+RhHDodkMPXoMMlpuc=; b=j792Zy5wsZVkQqJsb7vdjsGiz6vVg+GlO2FrNvdcCi4Kv0KUq0NnnRHnjHSHRU2ITu EUtt57P2n5nMYQnQ45RtgkGkRFlcvtDo8jpJFJnykJUaqO3MTnVOBTPvE2vqCFfi1bh0 4AEko/qGYZGFUl2jPpVGrRfg+j9WBESNdaojpMJs2uv/Huuin5MiptZ6aNvNpiuFWbGR XeM+NHnjhv9UrfBwluBdjHzo1cF5G26wh3JPKevVzII41LqbwWceQlfV6EQDSKrb71TW sfMCF1K5n/mF28kZkwx8ZerytM5lB8MWuUzcgQ4qVwB2lGwN+kTrMJY1igpPchoblP8k ZIIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=TIyFKGwr79Ks8Uhfw8s1zi5kX+RhHDodkMPXoMMlpuc=; b=EHQ7tVKl9PwbKJ3rNxEMEQsXOE+oHpuEgrRrvLdKRlnbCM6PISPiUPY0dmGbhjtJuJ svfolGN9DjHjaqtFdh+atGo/XFIwVZTAWYZWbrL+L+ERBXPM8+Xkme65kPbn29rG6ngW CnDINxmI9rQJtzi35W+pwxyLcoDrm/GO5QVHBMyTuCh7TLsh+lDdlAEobtGYi+6Qnb67 ImKM4vYnlaxW+z8o8ddV/jn3WtUzCeD/nnyKSi7DxN6ef9H8GE9fRUFx6MzuDqElROC7 dtn99MCXv/BBQ/SeKcXyG6ik4WbrTFgqQYTM9iO6+Fl1VtBVwIsTwNIt9ismA+TSF68i L2HQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ZFj/yLWJ0UZjR/CAh0qwp52caSuWN9N6J++cJccZpE61NF2sJ THHIei4DqlnJmNsDLnMV6q+yvKDLum4E1+FCQH2+BGbbBzQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzt42214f1xM7dVwa3z+Cx8QYB0HIgSgobFxb7TkrYu8FA3VGC4DxhJcqFpQZ+ScMtXFseQNZS0TGVttGfnGeY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2815:: with SMTP id d21mr1443304ioe.174.1592428358604; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:12:27 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nHpH6jlSz4WjK X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:12:40 -0000 Let's see the fact I am typing this reply on "FreeBSD neomarx 12.1-RELEASE-p6 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p6 r362146 GENERIC amd64" with a USB keyboard and mouse via an external hub (and never seen that message) is proof enough it is fixed (with the same BIOS and processor class as reported!). Don't believe everything you read in bug reports. Looking through the bug it is clear that it was likely due to a faulty upgrade (or pre-release 12.1) not due to an actual bug. On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:59 PM Jerry wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:46:51 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: > >On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 1:42 PM Jerry wrote: > > > >> Due to a long standing bug, > >> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=237666, I am unable > >> to use FreeBSD 12.x. > >> > > > >Been fixed in 12.X for eons (the last bug report was on a beta > >version). Also bsd-update is really not the "right" way (it is a > >supported way but not the prefered way). Do the update from sources > >and you should have no problem (I have done the same upgrade on 5 > >machines now with no issue). > > > That bug existed until at lest 5/16 when I last attempted to install > 12.1 on the system. Not exactly eons. Furthermore, if it has been fixed, > why is it still open? > > Please supply actual proof, not conjecture, that it is fix. I have no > intention of wasting valuable time on bad info. > > -- > Jerry > > > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 21:18:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5CC336DBA for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:18:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nHxR6VfRz4XLv for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:18:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id u13so4620294iol.10 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:18:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1D//otIcaEYMgwmsz6HQVBY9qGlPiBTDdG74buJ8Mg8=; b=ZcBmO9scPoL7OLtqBZ7qkkrO16g4Fc4LsR4tW4VfEo3XfXL/VCLXFc6K+iMuiP7YEF M10wp/QJHogaMo3AxsoyERPvIW5iwQabCW0OM89Z/2et1ymdqAO7toRZzmrE+WAyp1ag aWTUIzNh1cEQKHKmTiKGuNQtc7APhNMJgEaWVN2HdB62Q7pLrD+LjNQkZWA8u6bt/qL1 gAe6WiGuiZWYMwJTTGMwP68SrJbLDQ9IKCxoeO/lSljB2DsdSC1r+dFVdkniBr47K5CW KOPcsFzsPe/PJgPRQHcttThUDHcPUK2ZylasIczm/SNhrdvBPH0NsamEs2f+NgnqHheu 0+xg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1D//otIcaEYMgwmsz6HQVBY9qGlPiBTDdG74buJ8Mg8=; b=HbWsou4CTh9FLeZDjDoyZW4GVxAC/fvReNI/jJpmxBgORLkO9mO977XnJftnuwf1Wo pEyoz22ayaTCogENKGtIHJ4kEakijXIe/Ad7UlXmS9WqzUwIrRjb7TAwbW7SCmhNCM/O ZrgRbKQiTHPvffB+kSXR9njHn8JGSMWWVVigSOxpRC7jzhep7vs+MTHj7ptnHIxhLpEl mo8uwglZ4WWgFJQHVJAroGRBqdUpn9xsv/RHaNVR7c6KrGNnQbZIwMwz6jok0uM3870K 5qZQInx9PbXp05y3b9j9v2iV2HNUZ5QmZ/sk/7I9xiCEjwsaMuwA+ewnpkI1OYnDVZeN HNXw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531GrOx4dEMhlOfXvDyhH1r1SYKGteECCpUa6KBOXHeI1le6yJ6g X1sIXX0gYh24LMfKd5whwt8Df8OrGGB8cf1+c3s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz9M+jJWzNv7YatKz3nG9R6DBb4DD+NGVAR0TdSTAt9Mdgm72NObNmgb3dQ95Cg92NPJng9BmcNJ5VRJ/+vpoo= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8e19:: with SMTP id e25mr1554823iod.36.1592428730614; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 14:18:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200617133525.4cd210d3@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:18:39 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Infinite stupid threads ... 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Etiquette is a customary code of polite > behavior. Consider it, in this context, to be the rules of the game for > discourse, and the analogy is apt =E2=80=93 it's hard to play tennis if y= ou don't > agree on the rules. Therefore rules of etiquette should be few in number= , > and easy to remember, and reinforced regularly. There are cultural and > linguistic and generational divides here, so etiquette helps define the > neutral ground of our colloquy. > The threads in this case quickly turned into "Be polite or I shall bash you over the head" vs. "Let's agree to disagree" (with the first quote being the general answer to the second one). Sadly etiquette threads often turn into that unless it is a point that there is a broad consensus on and no vocal minority. In the two mentioned threads there was a very vocal minority attempting to say current consensus is wrong. It is likely impossible to have polite conversation when the convention in question is an etiquette one. --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 21:20:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF54D336E25 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:20:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000bcc296.76375dd3fcb1c88a45e84798c1f429a5@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nHz323Cqz4XRj for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:20:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000bcc296.76375dd3fcb1c88a45e84798c1f429a5@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592428815; x=1595020815; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=xPPDlUoURNVHoCGSb6Brg7EsYW3A3BLJIzpNqyFyjls=; b=j8YpoGTo3qZFfQUr23VBCEIr33xk5DWd3EKlMVruXFKgY4yw4a92uBJbuzYQYIiX43xEb98XcBTFDcv3Eyw1CfjFTbh7ixZtoTYDlUc/XlCjzRN0gf7l3ddNy1PnuMYaoDESVWnkNxC6XVc2fZATET+geZrjkYY6cNHZXVTz+10= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDBiY2MyOTYuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.h.in.socketlabs.com (r2.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.12]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:20:13 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:20:13 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jlfTf-000Hz5-Qw for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:20:11 +0100 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:20:11 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Infinite stupid threads ... Message-Id: <20200617222011.ad2edf0aa150e57b6c3689c3@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200617133525.4cd210d3@bigus.dream-tech.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nHz323Cqz4XRj X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=j8YpoGTo; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20000bcc296.76375dd3fcb1c88a45e84798c1f429a5@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20000bcc296.76375dd3fcb1c88a45e84798c1f429a5@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.997]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.988]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.04)[0.041]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000bcc296.76375dd3fcb1c88a45e84798c1f429a5@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000bcc296.76375dd3fcb1c88a45e84798c1f429a5@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 21:20:16 -0000 On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:54:05 -0700 Michael Sierchio wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 1:35 PM Dave Hayes wrote: > > > Of course it is. Etiquette is an arbitrary subjective standard, > > > Respectfully, I beg to differ. Etiquette is a customary code of polite > behavior. I really shouldn't but ... those two statements are not incompatible, indeed they are both true. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 22:33:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B06338E23 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:33:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from fedex2.jetcafe.org (fedex2.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "fedex2.jetcafe.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nKZz46N4z4ddD for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:32:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) X-Envelope-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from bigus.dream-tech.com (bigus.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.7]) by fedex2.jetcafe.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05HMWrpb040848 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 15:32:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 15:32:52 -0700 From: Dave Hayes To: Michael Sierchio Cc: Roderick , Polytropon , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Infinite stupid threads ... Message-ID: <20200617153252.44e4b441@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20200617133525.4cd210d3@bigus.dream-tech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1 ( out of 6) ALL_TRUSTED,SHORTCIRCUIT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin version 3.4.4-jetcafeglobal X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.83 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nKZz46N4z4ddD X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dave@jetcafe.org designates 205.147.26.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dave@jetcafe.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.13 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.888]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.982]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jetcafe.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.04)[0.042]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7397, ipnet:205.147.0.0/18, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,edvax.de,freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:33:01 -0000 On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 13:54:05 -0700 Michael Sierchio wrote: > Respectfully, I beg to differ. Etiquette is a customary code of polite > behavior. Respectfully, I'll pose the same challenge I posed back in the 80s. :) Please enumerate and describe this code in objective and clear language? If you can do that, then I will accept your premise. Science, after all. -- Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>>> *The opinions expressed above are entirely my own* <<<< Politeness and telling the truth are, to your certain knowledge and mine, often opposites. Any society which enjoins its members to adhere to both of these is a fraud. All sorts of compromise formula have been devised to gloss over or obscure this basic weakness. It remains nonetheless. This is not an exhortation to abandon politeness or telling the truth. It is a statement which has to be carefully thought about. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 23:45:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2C1433A794 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 23:45:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from starikarp@dismail.de) Received: from mx2.dismail.de (mx2.dismail.de [159.69.191.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mx2.dismail.de", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nMB755Xdz3T5D for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 23:45:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from starikarp@dismail.de) Received: from mx2.dismail.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 00cdc906 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 01:45:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1.dismail.de ( [10.240.26.11]) by mx2.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 7ddceed0 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 01:45:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1.dismail.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 5ce3e45d for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 01:45:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id f4ad13b1 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO) for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 01:45:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:44:52 -0400 From: ajtiM To: FreeBSD Questions Subject: very slow - WCPU Message-ID: <20200617194452.14bcdecc@dismail.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nMB755Xdz3T5D X-Spamd-Bar: ------ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.12 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.054]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[dismail.de:s=20190914]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[dismail.de:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:159.69.191.136]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[159.69.191.136:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[dismail.de:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[dismail.de,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.38)[-0.379]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:159.69.0.0/16, country:DE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 23:45:04 -0000 Hi! For whatever reason after few last updates I cannot use FreeCAD (WCPU 99,7%), Cura (3D printing) - WCPU time is good for cura-engine but Python 3.7 is 100.22% and Blender stop working because "Error! Unsupported graphics card or driver. A graphics card and driver with support for OpenGL 3.3 or higher is required. The program will now close." I do not run the applications at the same time. GIMP and mpv player works without problems as before. Thank you. --=20 Ernst Lubitsch=E2=80=99s Ninotchka:=20 =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98Waiter! A cup of coffee without cream, please!=E2=80=99 = =E2=80=98I=E2=80=99m sorry, sir, we have no cream, only milk, so can it be a coffee without milk?=E2=80=99=E2= =80=9D=20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 17 23:57:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDF133AD34 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 23:57:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nMSH5nBkz3TQw for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 23:57:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id r22so2408992qke.13 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:57:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=Ih2a9pec0nROfHhgIkE6uM//VY0k2UTzLtYaubLxGS8=; b=Mf6kX62h/oxZaloJyPd6izU4l7USzu/JSDcC0/n1aNUDCQwkq+DtmizZcH5V+QjmWp ouMUYbSjsHFExsNePAo7baLaRIArPnMXQE0jpWJ4kgbdgLtfYlnl1HlrcsfnmDTO5U18 ppsoPNGvk1YgbuJBKWTj7zgxMrIsuCxz5nu/s= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=Ih2a9pec0nROfHhgIkE6uM//VY0k2UTzLtYaubLxGS8=; b=YCBywwIPqckF8j4mYS/ann5YtFLYuuUDoOHwrudO+OInYz0Bapx73Ix/NlWABYtUC0 0qSklWBiQ7t1LRnTE+I0TskUIpT5KI2H4tvb5yl4vnJ17OC1ysdDSJW8JsXou9MEA8Xx n8afwMgMQvNqCX54sLonpWzeDu2Pv//Kofcjwn9CAxYgkM+VqH/2vME70beXreN4HWdp s4vmEq/grqIdSwkHLPNjTlUwtOTWrjmcBwrcsSRR5v2yYmmEwV/NyNnE8SxeZZc0Rw0P DPXWCf3/qefti9schTHbPJtJMsKc15zz+afKmhnA+FCoovi6fMSb4tDtoq4OTFDMeMeY SR8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532c6YT2I5+pln0iUuIG75DfQxICxvroTuoOGlmVKi07AqeSEn73 u6yuOa7rpMfr0/TDFWCLYrz+dKQmTqI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwgs9ZX1iUahrC2UCTPe3dp8kc2EbeUBykiVDoU59xh4cduPJlFINy+hrSjs1ddThMjsrNdDg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:a847:: with SMTP id r68mr1285671qke.45.1592438238159; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z9sm1414484qkj.129.2020.06.17.16.57.16 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 17 Jun 2020 16:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49nMSC4pTBz4T5X for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:57:05 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 Message-ID: <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/Kcl+AESLLjOTZYO=oD4kWm="; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nMSH5nBkz3TQw X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=Mf6kX62h; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::730 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.70 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.84)[-0.841]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.970]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.11)[0.110]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::730:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 23:57:20 -0000 --Sig_/Kcl+AESLLjOTZYO=oD4kWm= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:12:27 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >Let's see the fact I am typing this reply on "FreeBSD neomarx >12.1-RELEASE-p6 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p6 r362146 GENERIC amd64" with a >USB keyboard and mouse via an external hub (and never seen that >message) is proof enough it is fixed (with the same BIOS and processor >class as reported!). Don't believe everything you read in bug >reports. Looking through the bug it is clear that it was likely due >to a faulty upgrade (or pre-release 12.1) not due to an actual bug. Are you using it on the exact same PC that the error has been reported on? Actually, I believe there are three units. Furthermore, just last month I again tried to install 12.1 and it filed immediately with the message as depicted in the PC. Sorry, but I do not have time to waste on unsubstantiated gossip. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/Kcl+AESLLjOTZYO=oD4kWm= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7qrdIACgkQOHMGOIfe xWR5wwgAlC+VkqGyVi6zGGbyMaxbN8zdU0cwpCJlp6snAiT/bgcaG7JsuyzyNmJc VmkuN78pigTT5iZYKxdVJdDs0CIwfPlDdlLzYxtzOQBZUavvRkpeNPHsll+Qi83w jCz/ry3QLz9jfc/0CG0N6yYlEGdcaMk1l/gznIJCH2aovfJ/+A9XL43/8WaMXhm3 QZSwaB0MsIkJxS4oq6ZWLGVo/VtOGl4whHXa0C4pFiCYrzpnBxF+2R5qbi3Dskxo HNa4+iPsXrmbNrOwtW55Xsf60mHm9/iWXY7lxvC2hkQpj46EyxL+yZ3vL3aSHsNt xynThFfqxJGzjK4T9XphtJSjcMCKNg== =dbPS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/Kcl+AESLLjOTZYO=oD4kWm=-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 00:20:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5D033B980 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 00:20:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from mail.nomadlogic.org (mail.nomadlogic.org [174.136.98.114]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.nomadlogic.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nMyR4Kmxz3VLt for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 00:19:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from [192.168.1.160] (cpe-23-243-161-111.socal.res.rr.com [23.243.161.111]) by mail.nomadlogic.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id d087f6ba (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 00:19:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: very slow - WCPU To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200617194452.14bcdecc@dismail.de> From: Pete Wright Message-ID: <2b40677e-d718-2381-f1af-a8b2cfb93b6e@nomadlogic.org> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:19:51 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200617194452.14bcdecc@dismail.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nMyR4Kmxz3VLt X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pete@nomadlogic.org designates 174.136.98.114 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@nomadlogic.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.74 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.66)[-0.656]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nomadlogic.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.36)[0.358]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.15)[-0.145]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:25795, ipnet:174.136.96.0/20, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[23.243.161.111:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 00:20:02 -0000 On 6/17/20 4:44 PM, ajtiM via freebsd-questions wrote: > Hi! > > For whatever reason after few last updates I cannot use FreeCAD (WCPU > 99,7%), Cura (3D printing) - WCPU time is good for cura-engine but > Python 3.7 is 100.22% and Blender stop working because "Error! > Unsupported graphics card or driver. A graphics card and driver with > support for OpenGL 3.3 or higher is required. The program will now > close." Can you provide information on which graphics card you are using, and if you have installed/configured the appropriate drivers?  That will most likely help people here better answer you question. cheers, -pete -- Pete Wright pete@nomadlogic.org @nomadlogicLA From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 00:44:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0554833BF67 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 00:44:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nNVT6q1hz3W3H for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 00:44:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id s18so5158799ioe.2 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:44:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8SKVFoigQkiUZbTot1SGevg91PqeUg4t/CRRcQxQCVA=; b=akfZOyBoBcSfDChUs45VJeuz3H7wKQWxqsSsMOaspAhZ74t4NxPliZ1+hsBp8TL9jt USfvUUyOXtGNO+kq6CWAWIkuBmoK5ASGrIooKo0KIp9Sg0DwtK9pVx21ba0bJttD7kT1 dtD4FzspXJu+7AYQcqJ+fEwhxGrnGWq1OvPVCi5CZCEUJyw3HjpLFu2nW7giNKa+nP6P BkF7mRnGLSrob5VHiLpUgLcvrPf9X9uXCSGVyEak/Nmf82970d6ZNZc2AyDRrzfCCfAO HGWRPeHhF9xQoKFuVnDamdQO0hm3VsOjFAMCx61bXNiydXlLlwtf9O204AzK0xzgBLvi 5WCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=8SKVFoigQkiUZbTot1SGevg91PqeUg4t/CRRcQxQCVA=; b=n089YNO343PiYsn5/5RC8O3jpty1+CnwsObOhtfCrozXgIu+enfVUGYyskpUgtlQyl QTwSupkE4McGfk/uqbC7uyWHNOHPAudHq6MJPXc+Sgtj4MskMqbnm9jFdH671TZ3P6DL eB4511K5RaR5Upb0kZSU4vJxD3uxHSG5YZH/AJvF4Slq1F/Z0titRyQMuQNNTqADCMgQ uaNcfEtccrEdhKLwnRF86KzrNEey9/6iWLpNDsgMS9w9xtMIctDIVUNcde7CR3qjDf1H VE+IOBInwL29qfRn0l/FRS7QI1AQp6vJGuLWJCnwqfCN3iUty12PHKyCMfDF+kHc6m04 yP0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530jgXmntqnRGmjgNhmwCWf4SwnEMTu6q4OzKbx+h+u0rxCiA868 pUyUWcak2uxoUIdp4fLGQe0rdT4DS2d/Wk0TI+pU3/Qv X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyPkCblQJAORWoZK2h1/swKd6mhAgKNvUWiPqcRTfvo8nq6kCl1NMdqVZzEM+/mMw8c4Hr0Rog0W3+uCtj2QFk= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:1448:: with SMTP id 69mr2227690iou.83.1592441056211; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:44:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:44:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nNVT6q1hz3W3H X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLY(-4.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 00:44:19 -0000 On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 7:57 PM Jerry wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:12:27 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: > >Let's see the fact I am typing this reply on "FreeBSD neomarx > >12.1-RELEASE-p6 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p6 r362146 GENERIC amd64" with a > >USB keyboard and mouse via an external hub (and never seen that > >message) is proof enough it is fixed (with the same BIOS and processor > >class as reported!). Don't believe everything you read in bug > >reports. Looking through the bug it is clear that it was likely due > >to a faulty upgrade (or pre-release 12.1) not due to an actual bug. > > Are you using it on the exact same PC that the error has been reported > on? Actually, I believe there are three units. Furthermore, just last > month I again tried to install 12.1 and it filed immediately with the > message as depicted in the PC. > It was reported on three different BIOS's and motherboards therefore it is almost certainly not tied to a specific configuration (the only clue is it on older machines, but even here I have 12.1 working just fine on a machine that is older than the any the list, I also have it running on newer machines). The fact that it is not tied to a specific hardware configuration means it *SHOULD* appear on any x86 based machine running 12.1. But, of course that is not true because the above just described the vast majority of 12.1 machines out there. Thus we are left with only one possible conclusion who ever reported it and/or experiences it is making some kind of user error (what it is who knows!). > Sorry, but I do not have time to waste on unsubstantiated gossip. > Yet you have time to complain about how the FreeBSD community refuses to get with the times when it comes to MUA's. I guess your experience here disproves your claim that "newer is better" in all regards and that "shiny objects" are more important than functionality. Perhaps your time is better spent figuring out what user error you made to trigger the "bug" that you're complaining about (since it almost certainly is not an actual bug). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 05:37:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C18F8344880 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 05:37:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from FreeBSD@shaneware.biz) Received: from ipmail04.adl3.internode.on.net (ipmail04.adl3.internode.on.net [150.101.137.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49nW1G0VY0z46wF for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 05:37:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from FreeBSD@shaneware.biz) X-SMTP-MATCH: 0 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2D5HwAb/epe/x1Y03ZmGgEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEDAQEBARIBAQEBAgIBAQEBQAeBQwIBg2qEO0iIBokDg3OWDoF7CwE8AQI?= =?us-ascii?q?EAQGBUIJ0AoIjASQ6BA0CEAEBBgEBAQEBBgSGVEIBEAGFHwEFIw8BVgsNCwI?= =?us-ascii?q?CGA4CAlcGAQwIAQGDIoJ8tziBMhoChTWFEIEOKgGMXlmBQYERJ4JpPodRgmA?= =?us-ascii?q?Eml2ZbIF+ZpkVBSeCcIxWgU0DjViFJot9gWOeawSBcTMaIYM8TxmONxeONDR?= =?us-ascii?q?nAgYBBwEBAwlXAYd2iDEBAQ?= Received: from unknown (HELO leader.local) ([118.211.88.29]) by ipmail04.adl3.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 18 Jun 2020 15:07:44 +0930 Subject: Re: very slow - WCPU To: Pete Wright , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200617194452.14bcdecc@dismail.de> <2b40677e-d718-2381-f1af-a8b2cfb93b6e@nomadlogic.org> From: Shane Ambler Message-ID: <4668871f-c03c-4a6b-c63c-36cb638fccd3@ShaneWare.Biz> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:07:41 +0930 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2b40677e-d718-2381-f1af-a8b2cfb93b6e@nomadlogic.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nW1G0VY0z46wF X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of FreeBSD@shaneware.biz has no SPF policy when checking 150.101.137.10) smtp.mailfrom=FreeBSD@shaneware.biz X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.41 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.40)[0.404]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[ShaneWare.Biz]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.50)[0.500]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.51)[0.506]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:4739, ipnet:150.101.0.0/16, country:AU]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 05:37:55 -0000 On 18/6/20 9:49 am, Pete Wright wrote: > > > On 6/17/20 4:44 PM, ajtiM via freebsd-questions wrote: >> Hi! >> >> For whatever reason after few last updates I cannot use FreeCAD (WCPU >> 99,7%), Cura (3D printing) - WCPU time is good for cura-engine but >> Python 3.7 is 100.22% and Blender stop working because "Error! >> Unsupported graphics card or driver. A graphics card and driver with >> support for OpenGL 3.3 or higher is required. The program will now >> close." > > Can you provide information on which graphics card you are using, and if > you have installed/configured the appropriate drivers?  That will most > likely help people here better answer you question. I have heard of trouble with DRI3 try setting LIBGL_DRI3_DISABLE=1 before starting one of the troubled apps. With blender, did you just update to v2.83.0? The new version may have changed the needed GL specs, which could mean your video card is missing a needed feature, rather than a specific GL version. -- FreeBSD - the place to B...Software Developing Shane Ambler From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 06:23:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95ECC3454C3 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 06:23:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nX1K301gz498b for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 06:23:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nX1H1j53zFcqD for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 23:22:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592461379; bh=AADGCRjysxTrt82ijbCog2oOFjoYqxga/XlUqVD+kHQ=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=YP9mJJGkhuruwQgqpJeuANuZEu0TMPNfK6hD7we9DXVzxLRQ+MjuEqQD0/p50GANY IGtYhNTdrIyGRZ2IuEtoE10RTHasx+/Vu5eGQL01XNIc372TX+S2X1QSCQHjIx9Y00 mrfdXB2pjGciKCK67sVdoT597Ni+8VVFIVRXDWiA= X-Riseup-User-ID: 1480D4FFE5A8D1EC9B93263F32129B7FDE357243D177960E95216179B052C8B8 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49nX1G4BKBz8t3d for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 23:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:22:58 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Infinite stupid threads ... Message-ID: <20200618082258.20670647@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nX1K301gz498b X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=YP9mJJGk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.91 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.08)[-1.085]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.27)[-0.266]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.959]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 06:23:02 -0000 On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 19:34:10 +0000 (UTC), Roderick wrote: >Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd >Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? >.... > >Perhaps I will have to unsubsribe. You don't need to unsusbscribe. https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?null(4) https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2020-June/290266.html Apart from using the null device, there are other solutions. I'm using POP accounts with bogofilter. However, banning and/or filtering on the server is also possible. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 06:52:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A62D3345AE2 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 06:52:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mail.foucry.net (fournil.foucry.net [95.217.83.231]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nXfr515Gz4BKf for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 06:52:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.localdomain (lfbn-idf2-1-629-205.w86-246.abo.wanadoo.fr [86.246.89.205]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.foucry.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0D4103D64B for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 06:51:48 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=foucry.net; s=dkim; t=1592463109; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=yorL6G9+c5HP2q5nFRMfCXif77yAXnrLYv1uw2NGgyw=; b=kPKgpuSBG8xQ895vpLHkCoa0veL5/KmCTCFW68pVL0zWyrsRa7k5/iXwYPNWd/8TdeZeiz F3amgpEF3vbpn4EhB/Tnt+BGt3fNBA9ooUaRHrOyB3H6wSrELp5cx4qj3Akgl+2JLYdsqZ NC8cnuhsEiiL9/Ink8g3BV2rCgN0vpY= Received: from mithril (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mithril.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2061238D for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:51:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:51:47 +0200 From: Jacques Foucry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? Message-ID: <20200618065147.GF16409@mithril> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> <20200617141857.b208232a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200617203752.05e35582.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.60 X-Rspamd-Server: mail.foucry.net X-Spam-Score: -1.60 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nXfr515Gz4BKf X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=foucry.net header.s=dkim header.b=kPKgpuSB; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=foucry.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jacques@foucry.net designates 95.217.83.231 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jacques@foucry.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.94 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[foucry.net:s=dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.968]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[foucry.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[foucry.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.41)[-0.406]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.07)[-1.067]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:95.217.0.0/16, country:DE]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 06:52:05 -0000 Le mercredi 17 juin 2020 à 12:29:46 (-0700), Michael Sierchio à écrit: > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 11:37 AM Polytropon wrote: > > > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:55:14 -0700, Michael Sierchio wrote: > > > > > > > The chief difference from my perspective is that it is possible in > > FreeBSD > > > to create a monolithic kernel and prohibit the loading of kernel modules, > > > foiling one step in the chain of a rootkit. It's especially convenient > > for > > > embedded devices, security appliances, etc. > > > > Before the KLD infrastructure became that universal, > > it was quite common to create your kernel configuration > > file specifically for the hardware you wanted to run > > the system on, and add kernel features as needed, so > > everything and _only_ the needed components would be > > in the resulting kernel. > > > > Another option was to create a very minimalistic kernel, > > then build and load only the modules needed. > > > > Today the GENERIC kernel supports a lot of hardware > > out of the box, and required modules can often be > > loaded automatically, initiated by userland processes, > > if you want (like from a rc.conf setting or even > > dynamically via devd). > > > > You can still choose what fits your needs best. :-) > > > > Exactly and precisely. The custom kernel that contains only hardware > options that are present is a fraction of the size of GENERIC. And to understand how-to, reading the Micheal W. Lucas book " Absolute FreeBSD 3rd Edition" is a very useful. -- Jacques Foucry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 07:08:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EBF1346A18 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:08:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hruodr@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x62b.google.com (mail-ej1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nY1p3BcCz4Cx4 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:08:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hruodr@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ej1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id mb16so5266383ejb.4 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 00:08:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=lV1vDuUqWR3cAe3WfGnFlwaFX1AqhueUpCRbRFMjp8k=; b=IC8gnNWL3WcetiMJNKqlXFSieA/TS7oLN4gkK1kg4lQ+psu4mpOM+/faouFzlEm3Lb ++A1BcYS95PrlQyzhpNl/UDy5XozT8x5c9TPA14KB04jwtcB0T8JW+Nu3NYFPnMaVjum KaW0WjD+dJKKUCUD4KOp0w65XEa5m9rtuTqGOaARf0ep58MhHiUXgqBtseltfpqQOQ2z RQBDSCYQHMZufEphXSKvmcLY5jqWVrulnrOvMR8lZ5TxWMfTf9E1LnfMADHB1SF5GXYw bBcujEgz6DsfFHEJao7wUkrbsfvnLPms3f0d/UuD7oRLieGlkONRLMqap6gIMKc6xyXj lwpg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=lV1vDuUqWR3cAe3WfGnFlwaFX1AqhueUpCRbRFMjp8k=; b=Wy1viBp2g+3xoP1Pn+nHqddcH9TO/YyPliawekgFHfRva6A/06dTciUDFWuQKGQLNf L2unRBcJPOxrNoXTRCGxFIwoZgG2Uy8KFNwFJ2hpVgMs9ghxnr2+g96K/Qytw56JMED7 RN7b9ORnLcl0/g1sX2uvfwez2xKonC/Wzh+tsvvWpvrWYS52/M3bQ03KNauISDn/LOj3 nJ1pOywWZNwvmr6pwVbofSICTrAbJLbJ+v0SrwhjNoS28x9AWjXJa71SQlt9NxbG53RH 2e+CS5VR27+f820J/8khUYAeYLzWI5+T/nqOEaJjKw+U7Mc4d30ANbv4eAcaHl5WCyw2 JLgw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533aS+VYidJmu3EgRzDDDZBhWCIsLtr7sqoPU8XcfK7kvRT+6IBB NTtktuOP67BKhOD+pntRibw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyizYA8CmItvhPaCH31bCjOmLV/Tp0qi9ThXHG2+u9S0i/kN6naz2tcgiJAAfUm7vi+I8bKPA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3cf:: with SMTP id c15mr2634562eja.186.1592464108241; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 00:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fbsd.fritz.box (dslb-084-060-038-252.084.060.pools.vodafone-ip.de. [84.60.38.252]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a24sm1596150ejc.109.2020.06.18.00.08.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Jun 2020 00:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:07:05 +0000 (UTC) From: Roderick To: Michael Sierchio cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Infinite stupid threads ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (BSF 419 2020-04-12) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nY1p3BcCz4Cx4 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=IC8gnNWL; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hruodr@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::62b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hruodr@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.20 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[84.60.38.252:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.974]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::62b:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.18)[-0.181]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.047]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:08:31 -0000 On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Michael Sierchio wrote: > I do like the fact that sometimes troll-initiated threads get hijacked by > thoughtful discourse. I think, the purpose of technical mailing lists is not small talk, although a little of it may not distrurb. For small talk there are usenet groups, or forums like https://forums.freebsd.org I think Etiquette, fixed rules according to which one must behave, are not necessary for people with a little level of sensibility and empathy. Normaly, one takes emails seriously, at least more seriously than small talk forums, one reads every email, or is aware of every incomming mail. That is why I read emails in the order they arrive, I do not use threading with email. The infinite stupid "thoughtful discourse" disturbs and cause big damage to a list. Makes the mailing list less serious, people take emails less serious, concentrate less on what is being written, at the end filter them to trash or dev/null without even reading them. Rod. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 07:39:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007E634778D for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:39:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nYjH6kTkz4FrD for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:39:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nYjG00kRzFdwR for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 00:39:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592465954; bh=zPY8HyYueIViOn9xtM5A2y0vmR4C1tQz2EQPXJwJieU=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Nqt8nRp/LtJl78pmjoXAfXf2EkEzzynCWYHpDLqjHpeGuCuEk3b4Q02JBGibMG0RM 69k1xPzXmK+SYHm0birbZmae64pgONIUgQLhinjF1fHHC3Rafkm9lV7UdGeDTW3NIE Fst1k8nkWE/77SAeVhjCyMNUHL2lnlx0DkubNOdA= X-Riseup-User-ID: 9714AD13F14FA93DE26310CB3E5F68CA618EAA10A71BA91760B1CF3B36FE70BB Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49nYjF2ntdzJnGh for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 00:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:39:10 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Infinite stupid threads ... Message-ID: <20200618093910.44fa9ead@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nYjH6kTkz4FrD X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=Nqt8nRp/; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.16 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.06)[-1.065]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.53)[-0.528]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.967]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:39:17 -0000 On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:07:05 +0000 (UTC), Roderick wrote: >Normaly, one takes emails seriously, at least more seriously than >small talk forums, one reads every email, or is aware of every >incomming mail. That is why I read emails in the order they arrive, >I do not use threading with email. Full ACK. Btw. I sort by date, too and only sort by thread on demand. >Makes the mailing list less serious, people take emails less serious, >concentrate less on what is being written, at the end filter them to >trash or dev/null without even reading them. Yesno. I dislike plain technical mailing lists without any small talk. Under normal circumstances it's reasonable to read the body of an email ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ with a subject like "Will FreeBSD migrate away from BSD-style init?" and to reply. At the moment it's safe to redirect emails with similar ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ subjects to /dev/null , without even considering to read the emails' bodies. When there's room for small talk, it temporarily could become a problem, even without provocateurs, so for a short time it's necessary to take measures, at least if provocateurs are involved. Btw. a nice measure for a seldom happening emergency case is to shut down a mailing list for 3 days. Usually nobody needs to get banned and after 3 days everything is ok again. 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[174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u5sm2767165qke.32.2020.06.18.04.14.58 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 18 Jun 2020 04:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49nfVB1H8vzBx4 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:14:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:14:56 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 Message-ID: <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nfVG1sYsz4XbD X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=pN55xFTs; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.80 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.85)[-0.852]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.965]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.12)[0.121]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:15:03 -0000 On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:44:04 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 7:57 PM Jerry wrote: > >> On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:12:27 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >> >Let's see the fact I am typing this reply on "FreeBSD neomarx >> >12.1-RELEASE-p6 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p6 r362146 GENERIC amd64" >> >with a USB keyboard and mouse via an external hub (and never seen >> >that message) is proof enough it is fixed (with the same BIOS and >> >processor class as reported!). Don't believe everything you read >> >in bug reports. Looking through the bug it is clear that it was >> >likely due to a faulty upgrade (or pre-release 12.1) not due to an >> >actual bug. >> >> Are you using it on the exact same PC that the error has been >> reported on? Actually, I believe there are three units. Furthermore, >> just last month I again tried to install 12.1 and it filed >> immediately with the message as depicted in the PC. >> > >It was reported on three different BIOS's and motherboards therefore >it is almost certainly not tied to a specific configuration (the only >clue is it on older machines, but even here I have 12.1 working just >fine on a machine that is older than the any the list, I also have it >running on newer machines). The fact that it is not tied to a >specific hardware configuration means it *SHOULD* appear on any x86 >based machine running 12.1. But, of course that is not true because >the above just described the vast majority of 12.1 machines out there. > Thus we are left with only one possible conclusion who ever reported > it and/or experiences it is >making some kind of user error (what it is who knows!). > > >> Sorry, but I do not have time to waste on unsubstantiated gossip. >> > >Yet you have time to complain about how the FreeBSD community refuses >to get with the times when it comes to MUA's. I guess your >experience here disproves your claim that "newer is better" in all >regards and that "shiny objects" are more important than >functionality. Perhaps your time is better spent figuring out what >user error you made to trigger the "bug" that you're complaining about >(since it almost certainly is not an actual bug). If you check the PR, you will notice this recent notation: This bug is not fixed in 12.1-STABLE as of April 26 (r360337) Since the error presents itself immediately upon bootup with a fresh 12.x disk, it is highly unlikely a configuration error. I have even reformatted the HD via the manufacturers disk and returned the BIOS to factory defaults, and the problem still exists. It appears to be some sort of 'regression' error, according to the notes posted pertaining to the PR. BTW, you use the term, "shiny", I prefer more advanced or mature, but that is not the important point here. Anchoring yourself to the past and or refusing to move forward is what dooms most projects. They reach a level to which they are either unable or unwilling to advance from. I guess its a good thing Thomas Edison thought reading by candle light was not the optimum solution. -- Jerry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 11:47:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 678A334D9A9 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:47:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ngCp4sdkz4ZJB for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:47:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MDhpf-1jdOZX1eIp-00AjQD for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:47:32 +0200 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:47:32 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 Message-Id: <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:rs7o0m7vCEsUDt5+tqQiyCm4PHmVHf7pGJCbkavVkexusD6IzMV Lu2c1pFoAr28GHs0FerX7niliRO6JGSesDAngjlckbvO4VgFlFpbaAZ0BCW/yeBh6XrZAJ2 R8mi1ia3CLYgKSrhDm4n/ngY9MEH9oaKlaUoxPgIfH/KpZg8yZUHQKHXjnakb2V8ixg5EnX 4gY8voc2KSlzuUCHqfh6Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:gZV+jKUTHsw=:p6OO7burSIEqfsWh8rLoqw roCQiPQoc1xgakZknNY4uGjuqjmIgQRTz5bnkT8Q9kzv+rLSEib5RF4Lk+FPL00KOhPq6MzA0 /JY/W+W06jFtT6Fxkn6ctYqBICdchjWc+/BLlOJV1zS5ea1fxtwGQn6UXjyqIPFIkesydV0BZ KJEBn7JNa6m/N1hAxf74azXEORwj5Uhj28KRZVT002pRiDhG4FwR4boz7Gh3LSDArR75bbjoh MHjAioN/g3pVAI9Sfd8SabSZE3KGamsxQikmdI6laIHG8PjDjzV+7x4+anjTdhfgVtwEvKM8c RtU5CmttiewqM9kQ3FtbhPpjE+jjDhhLJG65ZuZ4BV8wjL7D1w5lqPj/l7YMQKXBJoGmPdrg/ JZRQb8l4bUpeTWFccyNTuvoOXbDBHTQUV0fVYOcA3t2A1Ao0M8cQYq8eP0PVeRvvu9YyYAcMt Js7o8V0oSZcZFgXXLP2KTNB9qv/XqKNSYViTv6WSPmgxfhUBN63oy1Kmi7EeiPUQg4TbTFQMy 7Z/LgCuoEmIxesVAR8Fwauy070Ak/Fn5fgYSNdZTZjx67IEtDbnJ7nvaUmeSMOf6iUNM0u0WD T++lJRW3aoLKC25GdlNbo34p71EcV3JmyifKo1L572L0Sp51HLE0oyU0PhdDz/3GGsnCS0wE7 P7BJP5VLY0LPKEPXSo8dWXtQUa3LDEHTD90yCNA40ySGwcwuN61fILxgsynV59UkvL+mIzc+5 D8FlB+hukBdgKRSTABKT1S9leEsAuboSaBeoB+JBMRNIe/Zz8wfSbLKDb79GzILm4jzfOR/Kw MY5+n4JKC7nyDLfNux7251BYH6QZwSdP/nBaom8zlYWQzuVU3U= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ngCp4sdkz4ZJB X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:47:35 -0000 On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:14:56 -0400, Jerry wrote: > BTW, you use the term, "shiny", I prefer more advanced or mature, but > that is not the important point here. The point is that the use of those terms is intended, and it illustrates a specific difference: "shiny new" often refers to products that _claim_ to be advanced or mature, or better or technically superior, while _not_ possessing that property; using actual words like "advanced", "mature", "secure", and the like _assures_ that those properies are present in a product. Reasoning: Just because a manufacturer claims his product is better, or because his product is newer, or because the product comes in a shiny package does _not_ prove, by any means, that the product actually _is_ better. Terminology, my dear Watson. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 12:37:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FDF34F6AC for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:37:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x72c.google.com (mail-qk1-x72c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nhK25ZmBz4dTR for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:37:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x72c.google.com with SMTP id l17so5270511qki.9 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 05:37:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=DRuNbH6xwZNJbG4d6O/yig02A4utIkaCffmCipB5ZcQ=; b=rPsdXnf32tGq2JPir9uUikjcMOQT4vYtfxl+9g+wn1Qu0pH1j/56ticDA8rwM4HkC9 0UGA6uGctSsZs7nkog7aUDKNcg0Kk91mqtO7CctRmeS1Jd78nds1wmdfrDfLyERd6dTb HhG3bSLKGwvxoo1sVs/qFdMFFrumChjExBT50= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=DRuNbH6xwZNJbG4d6O/yig02A4utIkaCffmCipB5ZcQ=; b=egNx96D42NsifJjasvorM6VzLro9j/pNnY9EAdThyzMdsqka8FAkoAb708VHVgNv/c meWdB0J3TwmJlsP1HLqaS+nAJYEXjLDk05U0fW64GoQfE5OHywW5lYbKhZg7rTFRexhE i3kSvwktytiy9GrZdAKWHB/t2CzlUPHawNOjlyxqzRHhgCNif5LlIzJ7tUw+s2a4q/E4 I91ppzW5Fm6f6eLLNQeknff0tipMC5HksVvPWS+ynEdPp+ArLVRLFTeZpYFsSgkKRuaO 5zbLibu0vYYzhi/H44EB9ZKNwFCm1Kj8fQNazDkBt/O+6VU9jLvu63pczpSmX4OZCb1r l8gg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530UqmHbTd9TqQ+RM9gslXBkWU9dWe6U8RdFcrw8tektU9S01eqe KssDfdiTDwBnJjGpeQ3ktqq+C841zDw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxqizysgd8SiUffdZs64GH/dreXDeSagJ3Qz01SKBlbmA0IqWAxjQtSZPpkWxEL7ba7PeE38g== X-Received: by 2002:a37:dce:: with SMTP id 197mr3573521qkn.250.1592483828903; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 05:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e7sm2989514qtd.83.2020.06.18.05.37.06 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 18 Jun 2020 05:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49nhJy0qnrz26DH for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:36:45 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 Message-ID: <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/ZuixfvLa8RsNdgrkc+kjT2p"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nhK25ZmBz4dTR X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=rPsdXnf3; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.85 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.84)[-0.840]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.970]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.26)[0.262]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:37:11 -0000 --Sig_/ZuixfvLa8RsNdgrkc+kjT2p Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:47:32 +0200, Polytropon commented: >On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:14:56 -0400, Jerry wrote: >> BTW, you use the term, "shiny", I prefer more advanced or mature, but >> that is not the important point here. =20 > >The point is that the use of those terms is intended, and >it illustrates a specific difference: "shiny new" often >refers to products that _claim_ to be advanced or mature, >or better or technically superior, while _not_ possessing >that property; using actual words like "advanced", "mature", >"secure", and the like _assures_ that those properies are >present in a product. > >Reasoning: Just because a manufacturer claims his product >is better, or because his product is newer, or because the >product comes in a shiny package does _not_ prove, by any >means, that the product actually _is_ better. > >Terminology, my dear Watson. ;-) To begin with, I never use the term "shiny new." I consider that a child's terminology. You state the obvious, however. Any reasonable, intelligent buyer will give the technical specifications sheet or other documents as they pertain to the potential item to be purchased, at the very least, a quick perusal. Anytime I am spending more than a couple of dollars on an item, I give it at least a quick, it not more thorough inspection. Advertising, as it is, requires a certain amount of finesse. No advertiser ever created an ad for a new car and stated that it was "almost" as good as the last model. It has been my experience dealing with reputable vendors that their newer products tend to be more advanced or improved over prior models, if even only marginally. Again, "Caveat emptor." Many corporations spend thousands on "usability studies" to determine what their potential market is looking for and how to best, and obviously, most cost-effectively provide that service or product. I have personally been involved in a few usability studies pertaining to software used in and by Municipalities. If any corporation wants to stay relevant in today's market, they have to invest in product improvement and securing the public trust in their product and it's quality. I am smart enough to know that there exists a robust socialistic element on this list that believes "profit" is a dirty word and is under the assumption that they are 'owed' simply because they exist. I have NEVER felt that way. I do not work sans monetary reward, and I would never expect anyone else to either. I am proud to be a Capitalist. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/ZuixfvLa8RsNdgrkc+kjT2p Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7rX90ACgkQOHMGOIfe xWTShAgAjTvmUXZOt7w2xAXTY3BimM0/Uc/BJdiVLciVAvM3ROf/i7Ijb3Z8SfTj RNwt9cfKBUZLyUWFmhABGeJYVOJNu5EZt19IDoeZK9vBPBQRmNIy70HbnAuaoCUv FpRgrQiZgjN/SQpT2kzVyb2mmBKWnRjS854lVGDJFjExxj0EVGnnJoxd81PBkHRE fzGwFRIcwfFqhZZfxNQT/Ng8X75rz7HGwWrzw8XWjmJQRN9vKx0TciozNsLuVmhY LFBfIYPD10o4SoXSyttbqwvu2eiQ0fp+l435cIlbn4vHIVhbqhkO52tdUkjy9uUu tsajq9Tmb11YxfYArMVzQUF4b1khqA== =xrqQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/ZuixfvLa8RsNdgrkc+kjT2p-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 13:11:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA313502BC for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:11:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from bede.qeng-ho.org (bede.qeng-ho.org [217.155.128.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nj4t3wW2z4h3l for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:11:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from arthur.home.qeng-ho.org (arthur.home.qeng-ho.org [172.23.1.2]) by bede.qeng-ho.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D3EE10193 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:11:35 +0100 (BST) To: FreeBSD-Questions From: Arthur Chance Subject: Is anyone using www/jitsi-meet? Message-ID: <1f750407-f40b-d2a4-f7d6-93dd64fb5e91@qeng-ho.org> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:11:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nj4t3wW2z4h3l X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@qeng-ho.org designates 217.155.128.241 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@qeng-ho.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.42 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.42)[-0.424]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.155.128.240/29]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[qeng-ho.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.74)[-0.743]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.048]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13037, ipnet:217.155.0.0/16, country:GB]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:11:43 -0000 I'm trying to get an idea for how well it works on FBSD and what size of hardware I would need run it. Googling for the latter gets me articles that range from "any old box will do" up to "ideally 20+ cores and 1TB of memory". I can imagine a huge server is needed if you're running an big online conference but I'm interested in 10-100 users, mostly at the lower end. -- Fat Earther: One who believes the world is round but has put on too much weight round the middle. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 13:38:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C13350CDC for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:38:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sl-pub-lists@honeyguide.de) Received: from mail.honeyguide.net (mail.honeyguide.net [185.18.205.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49njgj0dkzz4jZp for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:38:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sl-pub-lists@honeyguide.de) Received: from vcf00001.honeyguide.net (aftr-62-216-206-248.dynamic.mnet-online.de [62.216.206.248]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.honeyguide.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 74B33418BF for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:38:15 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=honeyguide.de; s=default; t=1592487495; bh=nAkFdgFwAbzDoee2T3dHcTNaY6CpP/ykjq2ypBm39R0=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=HXWyNaNFlK4YAtu0Q/t5+TyxzCj4LDvxWMlFX0/KEx9g0kGuu3e30UPaJAQm/skJZ c5MGso1SLPgE/U4vyD1luxUYxmZXtn04VwSysbqwnGZ+M6f+vBOpxWL4uQcWonB2zG I0XDLNsSpPjCNB/CJHLrsqb0hIAIeigi9rBvdnVE= Subject: Re: Is anyone using www/jitsi-meet? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <1f750407-f40b-d2a4-f7d6-93dd64fb5e91@qeng-ho.org> From: Stephan Lichtenauer Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:38:13 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1f750407-f40b-d2a4-f7d6-93dd64fb5e91@qeng-ho.org> Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49njgj0dkzz4jZp X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=honeyguide.de header.s=default header.b=HXWyNaNF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=honeyguide.de; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of sl-pub-lists@honeyguide.de designates 185.18.205.59 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sl-pub-lists@honeyguide.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.86 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[honeyguide.de:s=default]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.963]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.949]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.051]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[honeyguide.de:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[honeyguide.de,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:61102, ipnet:185.18.205.0/24, country:IL]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[62.216.206.248:received] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:38:26 -0000 Hi Arthur, On 2020-06-18 15:11, Arthur Chance wrote: > I'm trying to get an idea for how well it works on FBSD and what size of > hardware I would need run it. Googling for the latter gets me articles > that range from "any old box will do" up to "ideally 20+ cores and 1TB > of memory". I can imagine a huge server is needed if you're running an > big online conference but I'm interested in 10-100 users, mostly at the > lower end. > I have set it up in a jail on a standard server with 64GB RAM and (I believe) 4 CPUs and it works without a sweat at least in the lower range of what you mention (there simply have not yet been conferences with up to 100 users at the same time yet but up to around 30 users with video have been no problem so far). To me it seems like the main bottleneck is network bandwidth. You can have a look at https://jitsi.honeyguide.net and I have written a short howto at https://honeyguide.eu/posts/jitsi-freebsd/ - set up is not complicated thanks to the ports. There also is a nice Grafana dashboard available which is easy enough to set up as well (https://honeyguide.eu/posts/jitsi-grafana/). Best regards Stephan From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 13:52:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9586350FCA for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:52:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from bede.qeng-ho.org (bede.qeng-ho.org [217.155.128.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49njzs6y0Pz4k7W for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:52:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from arthur.home.qeng-ho.org (arthur.home.qeng-ho.org [172.23.1.2]) by bede.qeng-ho.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3450A10193; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:52:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Is anyone using www/jitsi-meet? To: Stephan Lichtenauer , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <1f750407-f40b-d2a4-f7d6-93dd64fb5e91@qeng-ho.org> From: Arthur Chance Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:52:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49njzs6y0Pz4k7W X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@qeng-ho.org designates 217.155.128.241 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@qeng-ho.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.45 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.72)[-0.720]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.155.128.240/29]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.976]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[qeng-ho.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.45)[-0.453]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13037, ipnet:217.155.0.0/16, country:GB] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:52:26 -0000 On 18/06/2020 14:38, Stephan Lichtenauer wrote: > Hi Arthur, > > On 2020-06-18 15:11, Arthur Chance wrote: >> I'm trying to get an idea for how well it works on FBSD and what size of >> hardware I would need run it. Googling for the latter gets me articles >> that range from "any old box will do" up to "ideally 20+ cores and 1TB >> of memory". I can imagine a huge server is needed if you're running an >> big online conference but I'm interested in 10-100 users, mostly at the >> lower end. >> > I have set it up in a jail on a standard server with 64GB RAM and (I > believe) 4 CPUs and it works without a sweat at least in the lower range > of what you mention (there simply have not yet been conferences with up > to 100 users at the same time yet but up to around 30 users with video > have been no problem so far). To me it seems like the main bottleneck is > network bandwidth. > > You can have a look at https://jitsi.honeyguide.net and I have written a > short howto at https://honeyguide.eu/posts/jitsi-freebsd/ - set up is > not complicated thanks to the ports. > > There also is a nice Grafana dashboard available which is easy enough to > set up as well (https://honeyguide.eu/posts/jitsi-grafana/). Thanks. Those howtos are going to be useful. Judging by image in the grafana howto it's going to be bandwidth that's the problem. -- Fat Earther: One who believes the world is round but has put on too much weight round the middle. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 14:40:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B42435201C for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:40:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49nl331hqXz4mpl for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:40:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 384D4351E60; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:40:15 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3819335201B for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:40:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com) Received: from echo.brtsvcs.net (echo.brtsvcs.net [208.111.40.118]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nl321vBYz4mf6 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:40:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com) Received: from chombo.houseloki.net (65-100-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net [65.100.43.2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "chombo.houseloki.net", Issuer "brtsvcs.net CA" (verified OK)) by echo.brtsvcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57D8B38D61 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:40:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:2602:41:642b:630:14ff:da5a:3726:b308] (unknown [IPv6:2602:41:642b:630:14ff:da5a:3726:b308]) by chombo.houseloki.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0FCAD995B for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:40:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Mel Pilgrim Subject: RealTek 2.5 GbE (RTL8125) support? To: questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:40:06 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nl321vBYz4mf6 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com designates 208.111.40.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.02 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:relay3.brtsvcs.net]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.84)[-0.837]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bluerosetech.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.06)[-0.058]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.83)[-0.828]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36236, ipnet:208.111.40.0/24, country:US]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 14:40:15 -0000 Are RealTek 2.5 GbE NICs (RTL8125) supported? I don't see RLT8125 parts listed in if_re(4) or if_re.c, and that appears to be the only driver for RealTek gigabit NICs? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 15:36:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA2435379C for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:36:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nmJ00jV7z4rQw for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:36:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id h3so6143930ilh.13 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:36:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=dZPjg6Bsl0NJrJ6GBvE+h9kneh20NV4V0McxNMd/oLk=; b=ZyLCF5MqTQJCD2WCM50TYS82VSVvuNXQP/2STt+oPDW3ma+YKMfur94sPEccOSLoho KDowsclrwJUqh0GRfd2+u8XZ8GkPko1A/woLLLZg4i1uBrQJlLOldNXZeknI0Dodcl0l Lk4Ur2jyOc7xfzSTADpNpSg65YQgIl0oroJ0/asbZLs7Dzsicr+7r0ibywiuOgHXD9kG uS2jdw4zIkbG+C8fARSnRP9s4iJIAzxV0cHQ/sS6L/2QbcDmRlQ8OnqAyfsw6VPHZdAN XgvmtDEN7Zo2tHO1N/TG+nC/+xGCgatf1Nakg8KlzQruTu2A1/ZxxE5ONe2Aj6wFWAUF ryOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=dZPjg6Bsl0NJrJ6GBvE+h9kneh20NV4V0McxNMd/oLk=; b=SY/IEHpuVaZPoliLFkRWbmSCpgRsPwX5gnThjW/uUNfFoeh5Qi4CE8kIRNyhgMe6yo zbr1vk9PE1ZyV7na2DFJ26nD21HV/Ic2O2Hy2tllaMMfOv6xrJ5b3XluDq5Dtann791a HlA9MJ2FUkp3+RSkM8Vb5nobzku+/L8kRO266t/lfK32IJR+H1PFYyDm9+3Zf8fIRJs8 HQwx8zwWfpdnAvycj7jFJ6aXu/gtX5YYrA5jB6YRGJxPWsEy0VoOILaCg8OXrVCtqwux uFMsD42tx7XsIrt8/sWWFKvMawubk9pfILU9BtlsLL2NWf3K167TbZ1QdLrmkYvtu9J/ Y6lA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530lJnjEXdF+/UOIvbE5NNip0EJhmoj6Jpz98lS8nHJcWTUpCq+e YOqFqlVnGYpHFL65dM9vcLdhWGWxntopFBmXSbZS+jas X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9CqjkGmnMIKgNOIdJ3ClnPHJg+dlQjE/eKnO7QSpkhtts3bkV1tz9qH9xlLNNj7yb7pWGiyTMd6ix7UNBXxc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:eb0:: with SMTP id u16mr4961342ilj.81.1592494590652; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 08:36:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:36:18 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nmJ00jV7z4rQw X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:36:32 -0000 On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:37 AM Jerry wrote: > To begin with, I never use the term "shiny new." I consider that a > child's terminology. You state the obvious, however. Any reasonable, > intelligent buyer will give the technical specifications sheet or > other documents as they pertain to the potential item to be purchased, > at the very least, a quick perusal. Anytime I am spending more than a > couple of dollars on an item, I give it at least a quick, it not more > thorough inspection. > In some products and use cases this is legally not possible and/or breaks any trust the customer might have established with the vendor. For example it is not possible for you average passenger or even airline to completely evaluate a plane before buying or flying in it, they have to depend on flight test data from the manufacturer and trust that the regulators have done a complete job of inspecting it before giving it an airworthiness certification. So what happens when the company fails to completely test the software behind a critical flight system (anyone who is knows any theoretical computer science will tell you it is impossible to complete test software for all possible bugs, this why "formal methods" has turned out to be such a failure... hint if your not a CS person look up "the Halting Problem" and "Rice's Theorem") and the FAA falls down on the job? Answer: 737-MAX. > Advertising, as it is, requires a certain amount of finesse. No > advertiser ever created an ad for a new car and stated that it was > "almost" as good as the last model. It has been my experience dealing > with reputable vendors that their newer products tend to be more > advanced or improved over prior models, if even only marginally. Again, > In many fields including healthcare this is complete BS! When you ask the questions you real need to ask to evaluate if you can build a business around a particular medical device (like remote heart monitors) you are told by the CTO of the only real option "don't go down that rabbit hole" when you ask a basic question like what concurrency protections do they have on the DB because their shiny one-size-fits-all solution that includes a nuclear powered sink (better known as "friendly front end") doesn't have a web interface and/or any means for multiple locations to use despite the fact they have field in the database for "site id" (which means you need to add these features to their product yourself to make it useful). You then find out the previous generation of the product did have a web interface and they removed it due to "lack of demand" (?!?!??!?!?). Oh did I mention this product costs $100k to license the software for and each device is about $5k? The newer devices are worse than older ones (shorter battery life, more likely to be misused by medical techs and more likely to be damaged beyond repair by normal everyday activity of the patient). To top it off the FDA just grandfathered the approval for the new generation since the older generation worked so well. If you want more proof that newer is not better I can dig many other such cases. "Caveat emptor." Many corporations spend thousands on "usability > studies" to determine what their potential market is looking for and how > to best, and obviously, most cost-effectively provide that service or > product. I have personally been involved in a few usability studies > pertaining to software used in and by Municipalities. > What BS! You obviously have not used Windows 10 ;-) If any corporation wants to stay relevant in today's market, they have > to invest in product improvement and securing the public trust in > their product and it's quality. > You mean to gain trust like my local chain drug store stopped carrying (have it only in their on-line store now) a certain brand of shampoo because the manufacturer had not come out with a "new and improved" version for years! This is despite that particular shampoo being in the top 5 sellers in its category. Luckily I live in a dense city and many of the smaller mom and pop drug stores decided to start carrying the same brand and won a lot of customers due to it. > I am smart enough to know that there exists a robust socialistic > element on this list that believes "profit" is a dirty word and is > under the assumption that they are 'owed' simply because they exist. I > You certainly don't know how to read people's politics for example I am a (former) member of the GOP (and left when the nut cases took over in 2010 but will happily rejoin when the voters decide to get rid of the wingnuts [like Trump]). have NEVER felt that way. I do not work sans monetary reward, and I > would never expect anyone else to either. I am proud to be a Capitalist. > Pure greed without morals is just as evil as morals without profit. You need both for a healthy economy. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 17:56:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823B23569A1 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 17:56:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.107.128.30]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49nqPw5BDkz3XWK for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 17:56:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [198.74.231.63]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9491E5F6C5 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 17:56:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (doug@localhost.watson.org [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 05IHuksv081305 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by fledge.watson.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 05IHuk6X081302 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) From: doug Reply-To: doug@safeport.com To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Infinite stupid threads ... In-Reply-To: <20200618093910.44fa9ead@archlinux> Message-ID: References: <20200618093910.44fa9ead@archlinux> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nqPw5BDkz3XWK X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of doug@fledge.watson.org has no SPF policy when checking 204.107.128.30) smtp.mailfrom=doug@fledge.watson.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.34 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[doug@safeport.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.69)[0.692]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; REPLYTO_DOM_NEQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.65)[0.646]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.004]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[watson.org]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11288, ipnet:204.107.128.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 17:56:53 -0000 On Thu, 18 Jun 2020, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 07:07:05 +0000 (UTC), Roderick wrote: >> Normaly, one takes emails seriously, at least more seriously than >> small talk forums, one reads every email, or is aware of every >> incomming mail. That is why I read emails in the order they arrive, >> I do not use threading with email. > > Full ACK. Btw. I sort by date, too and only sort by thread on demand. > >> Makes the mailing list less serious, people take emails less serious, >> concentrate less on what is being written, at the end filter them to >> trash or dev/null without even reading them. > > Yesno. I dislike plain technical mailing lists without any small talk. > > Under normal circumstances it's reasonable to read the body of an email > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > with a subject like "Will FreeBSD migrate away from BSD-style init?" and > to reply. At the moment it's safe to redirect emails with similar > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > subjects to /dev/null , without even considering to read the emails' > bodies. > > When there's room for small talk, it temporarily could become a > problem, even without provocateurs, so for a short time it's necessary > to take measures, at least if provocateurs are involved. > > Btw. a nice measure for a seldom happening emergency case is to shut > down a mailing list for 3 days. Usually nobody needs to get banned and > after 3 days everything is ok again. First, I want to apologize for the Etiquette thread. I did ask a question about including CCs because if like top posting there was a general consensus, I was fine either way. I stupidly included a link that was not really relevant to my question. That said I largely agree with the points above. However we "live" in the community we have rather than the one we might wish for. By that I only mean FreeBSD-questions. There are more than 100 FreeBSD mailing lists. I selected a set where one might think some of the issues might be discussed. These are advocacy (28) current (1,306) desktop (208) 181 hackers (792) hardware (10) stable (528) questions (3,086) The numbers are the number of posts since 1/1/20. In the case of Desktop, 181 were discussing bugs, mostly a bug actually. So that really leaves questions as the point of entry for people wondering about FreeBSD, newbies, and people like most of us with some experience that have a question. I take several things from the thread, sometimes it will take a life of its own. In this case having nothing to do with my question, but I think in general that's fine. People feel very passionate about things and passion often is the inverse of civility. I'm old enough to think that's too bad, but it is certainly reflective of social media. As we are a community (with a purpose) I would hope we could raise the bar a bit. My history with this list is the less I knew (hopefully in the early days), the more help I got. Now because most of my issues might be better posted in advocacy, desktop and maybe hardware, I have to craft a question that peeks someone's interest. I do not actively follow stable or current because I gave up on being able to contribute in these areas and mostly I can just read questions and find something that will point me in the right direction. I think my experience is the norm. I do not find the occasional "Infinite stupid thread" a large price for the value of questions (to me). From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 20:18:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E0A23320E7 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:18:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe41.google.com (mail-vs1-xe41.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e41]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ntXs4Tfdz40PK for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:18:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe41.google.com with SMTP id j13so4316285vsn.3 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:18:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=X5U3Yq28SbvLl59MDMU26N8TLrjKFoAGyEt3qYNxVHo=; b=xcRO85UYwQ58AuemaRt87iZltf+FE0Jugpc7LfQxTOwvyxHt5AxaqZ8i7sjoMswT2C TMxTrUEPBcLLlMYC4VKKLCrNnjAhtlOApy6r3v3EbNDsULMaW0v0ihjFvC9LUM1sicts cEtnGxPz6tYia4JKDtuyDHv3UIe9hRIICa4RiqG9ohWNohOhQqxFxJi3sfYq3mClLxaw ATbLbUUIvSd+X7235mwgLefl0Uy8HZdY1AktGoXG+6kU8GEs1HwUu3UgwB8v7c8WbPGz Vl38rJJ3a0qnFNzGuQX4OkKJs/aeGVLgsrxiDEQ2Iy7z2IhArRG9Fk2KVG54xJKuTnwf kMgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=X5U3Yq28SbvLl59MDMU26N8TLrjKFoAGyEt3qYNxVHo=; b=fhYfpcYJB6hzLIyznM+e/woyqKXlpsw2A+Jt2qCE/0EpwCwuUzrSPMJ1FBy4sNKqPH cfSuZD4Ho4rUT3Cwkee1Zu8Is7g4Ra+UbPTc1MVVnFANV4K4D2WFbvWJe/OZAHrD7CnC NDQg4vzRobqEDW4FHSQvgSUStEtKxTr6Plwe3hNKwg76WwDHXXSltpYy6N2uTBJri7hH SQt4MGqK7JZR3RlQzP4LcR94o4h13o4qAuaRm7mZdcyAlmE3d34pAhHMXL45p/S8xldH ahoZDI970hETvg6Hrszh+gFnTl8S7lFB2lp1e+lzjJMqIDQpdCMe5uXJzdbpncta/Q7/ qChQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530QgLEUbUVzrmGkE2IBtSJm84rvySSHXPkkxAgRgI+ugVnC/v4M dBJ6/3D11btKyDGrm8EjBMGPO8XjT07LEeFNUFJciEE7G0k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx20ieo7jy7xiS3xvvTIpjSw5C837PHflqJb+A9CzJZfBHJc/Uj2i40qPYuVl31yxE1hZ9+L4stTaOpscVpOzI= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:46a9:: with SMTP id br9mr5296036qvb.246.1592511099801; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:11:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3a48ab1ab198c330400be3e942f921f2cd3c3e11.camel@tom.com> <20200617141857.b208232a.freebsd@edvax.de> <6fc1cf5e-040d-4a80-a0ec-22ee25edf4bd@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6fc1cf5e-040d-4a80-a0ec-22ee25edf4bd@www.fastmail.com> From: Michael Sierchio Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:11:03 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Why does FreeBSD not use the Linux kernel? To: Yuri Pankov Cc: FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ntXs4Tfdz40PK X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=xcRO85UY; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kudzu@tenebras.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e41) smtp.mailfrom=kudzu@tenebras.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.07 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SEM_URIBL_FRESH15(3.00)[yuripv.dev:email]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.35)[0.350]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tenebras.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.74)[0.736]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::e41:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.982]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:18:06 -0000 On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 11:12 AM Yuri Pankov wrote: > > FWIW: > > $ ls /boot/kernel/ipfw_nat* > /boot/kernel/ipfw_nat.ko /boot/kernel/ipfw_nat64.ko > _______________________________________________ > Thanks. This must be new to 12.X ? Or do these still require a kernel built with LIBALIAS? --=20 "Well," Brahm=C4=81 said, "even after ten thousand explanations, a fool is = no wiser, but an intelligent person requires only two thousand five hundred." - The Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 21:45:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41BD334FD5 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 21:45:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from starikarp@dismail.de) Received: from mx2.dismail.de (mx2.dismail.de [159.69.191.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mx2.dismail.de", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nwV057nTz47CB for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 21:45:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from starikarp@dismail.de) Received: from mx2.dismail.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id abdfd78a for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:45:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2.dismail.de ( [10.240.26.12]) by mx2.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id ac0b78dc for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:45:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2.dismail.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 3289d842 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:45:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 001a7368 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO) for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:45:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 17:45:33 -0400 From: ajtiM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: very slow - WCPU Message-ID: <20200618174533.5ed6e81a@dismail.de> In-Reply-To: <2b40677e-d718-2381-f1af-a8b2cfb93b6e@nomadlogic.org> References: <20200617194452.14bcdecc@dismail.de> <2b40677e-d718-2381-f1af-a8b2cfb93b6e@nomadlogic.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nwV057nTz47CB X-Spamd-Bar: ------ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.52 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.049]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[dismail.de:s=20190914]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[dismail.de:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:159.69.191.136]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[159.69.191.136:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[dismail.de:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[dismail.de,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.76)[-0.763]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:159.69.0.0/16, country:DE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 21:45:45 -0000 On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:19:51 -0700 Pete Wright wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 6/17/20 4:44 PM, ajtiM via freebsd-questions wrote: > > Hi! > > > > For whatever reason after few last updates I cannot use FreeCAD > > (WCPU 99,7%), Cura (3D printing) - WCPU time is good for > > cura-engine but Python 3.7 is 100.22% and Blender stop working > > because "Error! Unsupported graphics card or driver. A graphics > > card and driver with support for OpenGL 3.3 or higher is required. > > The program will now close." >=20 > Can you provide information on which graphics card you are using, and > if you have installed/configured the appropriate drivers?=C2=A0 That will > most likely help people here better answer you question. >=20 > cheers, > -pete >=20 I am sorry: vgapci0@pci0:1:0:0: class=3D0x030000 card=3D0x00b5106b chip=3D0x944a1002 rev=3D0x00 hdr=3D0x00 vendor =3D 'Advanced Micro Devi= ces, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device =3D 'RV770/M98L [Mobility Radeon HD 4850]' class =3D display subclass =3D VGA hdac0@pci0:1:0:1: class=3D0x040300 card=3D0xaa30106b chip=3D0xaa301002 rev=3D0x00 hdr=3D0x00 vendor =3D 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI= ]' device =3D 'RV770 HDMI Audio [Radeon HD 4850/4870]' class =3D multimedia subclass =3D HDA I have installed FreeBSD (just FreeBSD) on iMac 11,1 and tha last when I used KMS drivers was FreeBSD 11.1 after that just black screen. And because that I am using scfb driver and I didn't have a problem with FreeBSD, Cura nad Blender and stopped as I wrote with the last updates. Should help if I downgrade qt5-opengl, please? Thank you. --=20 Ernst Lubitsch=E2=80=99s Ninotchka:=20 =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98Waiter! A cup of coffee without cream, please!=E2=80=99 = =E2=80=98I=E2=80=99m sorry, sir, we have no cream, only milk, so can it be a coffee without milk?=E2=80=99=E2= =80=9D=20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 22:19:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C987335E92 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:19:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) Received: from hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au (hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au [203.41.22.115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2560 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au", Issuer "Heuristic Systems Type 4 Host CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nxFL6pq9z48lV for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:19:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) Received: from [10.0.5.3] (noddy.hs [10.0.5.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 05IMJhX6059828 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:19:43 +1000 (AEST) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=heuristicsystems.com.au; s=hsa; t=1592518783; x=1593123584; bh=I3JwKMxLtmsLNVLJOSiGD+CFIPx6MwDob5SaQKBrTck=; h=Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date; b=BGIRNa2oUeyJuZlqMCcfwz465eIzXpWo23kw5VCK63snOesAishC+GXobQkcQoY5L pDx17eNsJV4+j1kU1Gnp3T+GSZXhjluKgN9sTB3RN00YtAimlgXVKeqb4wEW092DO/ xF0zAtFORR8DcAZ5H85Vv7BwzKy5MEeMMrC2rFLyQwuaO71r0BB2r X-Authentication-Warning: b3.hs: Host noddy.hs [10.0.5.3] claimed to be [10.0.5.3] Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> From: Dewayne Geraghty Autocrypt: addr=dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQFNBFbOsVMBCgDfvi2PspSwoMEtFhF+aFLQKtzSA9f0dhDqthKHESdfbqxvKzhkBjvTJ5Na EgjKoKfoQTh5xuIv3HLhtDo5PeasPgQl9cPJeriqmqlS+UhY5BGYcMc1AO/TX0fsDaQz96ko at3RUW7sff/qPgVzSurk+DV5h866gPdn5Jdjohyl2F1rzRl6dnaAIyg49zlwZOnPHJGKye+B meqUCnPRglhkpNqXR3v1ulbWpfwhdNDvWT82qTG/qsFy/agjJvxwLuEBeoGc1dPWasO8Nztt 0dqf1Lpeg6SX2yJd76WVS4znt88OEbx/QL2PTJ/YtSepS68WaeKuARKPukkU+QXDep0gaLPl /TvU5xAZndNB3rYnpmoLb32pDHlrJbZUVyTMqc3J2EYM6aaizCpg4VEvVpVSqUT4D9MuREhu PeZ3SvEazQARAQABiQF3BB8BCAAhBQJWzrFTFwyAAWHe5yZt8RJL0vaU1MfDto5dBmeFAgcA AAoJEJVk7a1LmFrdy2QJ/AysDdFIMCRiaqEellprZQyEz5I/qZJEi6yRfXH813hhISFz6moh urZYLQ9SRdyMntT8W3Oc4pJc9fF9RSnY0SSQY/arZbrvsv6hKb1KtIK7P5mLS914J9buxEcJ SWeVuOuMA9aCNqg5uMu19pH5pXayORfbv+K7vFPiyllZ64ShUWZJL69vAc/TsbvMrGtG1M4P qyWCOKEiUT93zhVGQoA0aUYjMAZoyvozZCuieo4O8hkPgMz9lka+3bqQBSOB+qO4Iz+CZs0k Lw7Soga6bRqLK86DH99WjTA6Oj1r8Won+j4V9fnTDCVJoSyqdVHLySDv/lHaNu4Ia4AO4i2d shmLw03gOUvoWLJx5X01A5Zio4FvecnpZqQ0Wz5Ph9MiK3lwarfjonTOLeNGd5BpdnHu5VRC fJml7uAYeyKsD8C4tEBEZXdheW5lIEdlcmFnaHR5IDxkZXdheW5lLmdlcmFnaHR5QGNvbnNj aXVtaW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbC5jb20uYXU+iQGXBBMBCABBAhshCwsKDQkIDAcLAwIECBUKCQgL AwIBBRYDAgEAAh4BAheAFiEEC8bIxjMx+sDl4ZCClWTtrUuYWt0FAl5UUOgACgkQlWTtrUuY Wt3xZAn/W/mq5nDhLIfqxVM9GbU8rGzNsGLfnt5NCVcWlBKhgxOOw9EWkcRTMymwX9OMqwxI +te6Gvy7rG53T2xprtsQyqESZmjWcUSEPsQ9hjw4VZCL15ftBeZMYyO2T1e41UImXAlftleT 2kXCktgyAfwfCzHhFiZM8k9QMFQV1x+JukJ9xPFBgICRLsLsVNVw/R1L7KqARuws4HqXxY1J SCpO+FB4b6tWSIRKbzlb6tctdKppKbG/adVYuoK61ngvmsAzy/9OLhF8u1MNCgyFd2woOErh /zyuap8KvJZMlwAIqpjsoHyXsa0cq8A/uNQSmodwBpRsEGXCmZIZq2FJw6N+38to8C8m97q0 YWrY63VsoA6hA4A4/ywzE3EiwGvqJQBMRv2ET3TIdTyLoEIwXq2bDPU7XTZGh5UZEsKFMHH5 228= Message-ID: <941386f3-ce71-6cf6-005c-ab9c159ce998@heuristicsystems.com.au> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:19:12 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nxFL6pq9z48lV X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=heuristicsystems.com.au header.s=hsa header.b=BGIRNa2o; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au designates 203.41.22.115 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.76 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[heuristicsystems.com.au:s=hsa]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[heuristicsystems.com.au:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.004]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[203.41.22.115:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[heuristicsystems.com.au:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[heuristicsystems.com.au]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.57)[-0.570]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.990]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1221, ipnet:203.40.0.0/13, country:AU]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:19:54 -0000 Jerry, Aryeh's suggestion of determining the cause of the problem would be beneficial as the PR https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=237666 appears to be caught in a non-reproducability trap. Eg "I have an X on version Y and no bug" will not allay anyone's concerns. Also reply 103 asserts that this problem doesn't exist on 11 (ie prior to 11.4). Perhaps pulling the iso's for 11.4 and using on a machine that reproduces the bug with 12.1 might be a more efficient path? Hans is clearly doing his best to address the issue but needs helpful information from our active community. Regards, Dewayne PS I appreciate the political turmoil, but lets keep freebsd-questions relevant to those seeking technical guidance. This list is often the newbie's first engagement with the FreeBSD community :) From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 22:45:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E96C33656E for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:45:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nxpS1F75z4BlG for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:45:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id z2so3775736qts.5 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:45:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DOTPb1L8AZ4MPgmqFV5Rk1bD2xIhKDzWCjfbLrQc/zs=; b=Jjbh2eLCCH1h2Z1yvqf3iygGDfwt8SqzmFs/+5oFCgDZA7DWFhGlqS76XZdniSL0kE NFuYX5rCvn+YU1Wx/YCDg1S4sJRyuNPOTt++MPdsaI/XJHbPFPbxX4+1yTPuRKMYLhlO NgkBVnW9sMekw65WzA078W6SIFE68zPljVCXU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DOTPb1L8AZ4MPgmqFV5Rk1bD2xIhKDzWCjfbLrQc/zs=; b=kTIRQmo7Y+GiLLrYRr9ssiIQc0egZQL96Yy6J0WcXr6fHJ1TbFeqPr5pTDsTNTVPjy xMNaT8Zebfpvxe2AFTNYBHjrRRW5aZ/3+WM4OXQtPouo/MnAwaCvkWyd9SaooUiWZDGI VzgwqHpc7tM2PEn8hmo/gvUwtCMQBCYALW+aXnH3xEAKah10jB+ZtGWXUXS3nDPH705y LiR3qOa+bkvVtNdWnril2EQ9u16j3e/xtxaKWS3t4sSwVXNg65cchOKp7fVzc1YEgvxE BoV17ps3jZFg1Fa4fqD1EK9ZZyxIyH2d4gUMk35T1mRhUlDEKIRYqFdPZMuKWqVPq4k7 USWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533arYB8kM6V088DFdq5a0+LM+/6+JYaMHmXGopXdKPx5u4Oa6Kq AipIZK2YiYf8DNx4lUkhZ1mouR1/EIA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxutN3Gon5mPWkhA/zqk6IIVLuK51BJoLdI4n+2CRd57CShXZ2epPNPLD6riP/sgGw9VtPeyg== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7089:: with SMTP id y9mr520087qto.355.1592520302605; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s124sm4296610qke.40.2020.06.18.15.44.45 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49nxp305Xxz24xD for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 18:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 18:44:38 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 Message-ID: <20200618184438.00003f41@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <941386f3-ce71-6cf6-005c-ab9c159ce998@heuristicsystems.com.au> References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> <941386f3-ce71-6cf6-005c-ab9c159ce998@heuristicsystems.com.au> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nxpS1F75z4BlG X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=Jjbh2eLC; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.04 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.57)[-0.575]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.947]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.934]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:45:05 -0000 On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:19:12 +1000, Dewayne Geraghty commented: >Jerry, > >Aryeh's suggestion of determining the cause of the problem would be >beneficial as the PR >https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=237666 >appears to be caught in a non-reproducability trap. Eg "I have an X on >version Y and no bug" will not allay anyone's concerns. > >Also reply 103 asserts that this problem doesn't exist on 11 (ie prior >to 11.4). Perhaps pulling the iso's for 11.4 and using on a machine >that reproduces the bug with 12.1 might be a more efficient path? It doesn't exist on 11.x at ll. If you read through the comments, etcetera, it was mentioned that it is most likely a regression problem. Regression bugs have a nasty habit of spreading. >Hans is clearly doing his best to address the issue but needs helpful >information from our active community. This bug has existed since at least 2019-04-30 04:22:45 EDT when it was first reported. >Regards, Dewayne From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 22:55:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E336336D55 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:55:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49ny2d0MHpz4BwM for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:55:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id i25so9256024iog.0 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:55:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=AgJ78n/32cClwmz1fCLfQR65ZgogWRjE9VXtMWnshU4=; b=kZTj2M+yMhlQywK8ppZj4J+yfka7PzcboAwe1WS4xSS8/L+QrNpDdMotRLgmABX3Or z7jQ5wQUq9/AxU8rdIq+4LSIcdqtAuJzecHcMrHDqMtaJfgTKMP8T1cfoaDDUymz7k4c ZMxcEgu8tFDjn51gHswQ3JybmSqmI6BfzZIRF+30/ZcM/WVg/97vKyDmo3m7j4WeVPU0 0+qcs420BKogd2wWbiIMsvnIgh1GyezeOLq7zFtgPY8fRPdHc33wA9jFef1Zu3+mG2uw qlY20gE2U43Yr24WG26V1/BpUd8W/DPQ+SalFoNR7iaTIaW+zTtOxxSaUutYKgsNhGDE UWCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=AgJ78n/32cClwmz1fCLfQR65ZgogWRjE9VXtMWnshU4=; b=pyI8OvlN6YppqP0LKkRK5M19R36fTBCPhqAslleS88/HlkMhR8yuaKKNGR+iuU3zZp d63dUSfmJ59DzoB2rZl3GV/BkUXD/bqzvZlu52pmuTLzkUNeNt/oOxY6hJsMuUEY3ekt snWp1gO9IWht24P9uSXO57pOv8/G+4D5e1d/gBbt0SZV0m3XamCpFdJHK6O7hey8H7Il iDeQ7mifRSbQQca042/pjvJ58YjKp6XAJQa9c0GuA7iXUVfKGO4pNRnYPJbG65OEf07G djXdnR+MdBYYVHosC5zF4bEdNqQp7tEHz7C82IY5hvqElNUErzz1w4+vIKz45AUt6lLY 1rhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5329Axr7zanGbf2lDbmlbQ13ybD55iNI6DjRaF9d7ibXZ/vEtPCD c2xkfAXQg+qt/XroMQar9RRXWEUdcjpyHNBiDVPyVsgt X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwWCXDm2IkmTkqfou85CCjQ3Gg7ktBKaPNZQ0JZObRCCUoeGfkBxOwJlYdYVJ9SPmT8O/we2uPoU7zUX9AzEbA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:234d:: with SMTP id r13mr495681iot.83.1592520935656; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:55:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> <941386f3-ce71-6cf6-005c-ab9c159ce998@heuristicsystems.com.au> <20200618184438.00003f41@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200618184438.00003f41@seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 18:55:24 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49ny2d0MHpz4BwM X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:55:37 -0000 On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 6:45 PM Jerry wrote: > On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:19:12 +1000, Dewayne Geraghty commented: > >Jerry, > > > >Aryeh's suggestion of determining the cause of the problem would be > >beneficial as the PR > >https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=237666 > >appears to be caught in a non-reproducability trap. Eg "I have an X on > >version Y and no bug" will not allay anyone's concerns. > > > >Also reply 103 asserts that this problem doesn't exist on 11 (ie prior > >to 11.4). Perhaps pulling the iso's for 11.4 and using on a machine > >that reproduces the bug with 12.1 might be a more efficient path? > > It doesn't exist on 11.x at ll. If you read through the comments, > etcetera, it was mentioned that it is most likely a regression problem. > Regression bugs have a nasty habit of spreading. > Especially if people refuse to actual test it to see if it is a bug or not on their system. Since it is not on mine my test is meaningless but your might not be and might help debug it so if you care about helping the community like you do you should try it and make a complete bug report as possible. But as I said it happens in enough odd different places that it is 90% likely user error not an actual bug and you just falling for FUD if you are not willing to help figure it out. > > >Hans is clearly doing his best to address the issue but needs helpful > >information from our active community. > > This bug has existed since at least 2019-04-30 04:22:45 EDT when it was > first reported. > > >Regards, Dewayne > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 23:43:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DCA133839D for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:43:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@theory14.net) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49nz5t2QHNz4GRH for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:43:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@theory14.net) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 52F2433839C; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:43:30 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52BC833839B for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:43:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@theory14.net) Received: from bacon.theory14.net (bacon.theory14.net [45.55.200.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49nz5s2jkKz4FtM for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:43:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@theory14.net) Received: from remote.theory14.net (remote.theory14.net [72.66.31.190]) by bacon.theory14.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C33A125ECE; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 19:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from grackle.int.theory14.net (grackle.int.theory14.net [192.168.10.52]) by remote.theory14.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC11D2ED8; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 19:43:22 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=theory14.net; s=mail; t=1592523802; bh=M38hykHGgOiIXV2xNPgK3USVDHUfUXTuuc5yFbgJylE=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=z3+nsKZ5QO2E7BAbrhXfK/wgFgortNqv4DQD03UER8M2ZBCDVxqkqmD0fL926nSBU s1jiwOiz91bcPpHmv3EFIhQAGlrRFWREv8bJEGc5GBZPNzvG4oGrsmQZDU14ShexAw U1T6e0BCxe2py2RTCS9wsHU6/NUrf8xqQNy9Ro40= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: RealTek 2.5 GbE (RTL8125) support? From: Chris Gordon In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 19:43:22 -0400 Cc: questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Mel Pilgrim X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nz5s2jkKz4FtM X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=theory14.net header.s=mail header.b=z3+nsKZ5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=theory14.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@theory14.net designates 45.55.200.27 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@theory14.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.44 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[theory14.net:s=mail]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.983]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[theory14.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[theory14.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.05)[-1.052]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.192.0/18, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[72.66.31.190:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:43:30 -0000 > On Jun 18, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Mel Pilgrim = wrote: >=20 > Are RealTek 2.5 GbE NICs () supported? I don't see RLT8125 parts = listed in if_re(4) or if_re.c, and that appears to be the only driver = for RealTek gigabit NICs? I don't know if that specific chipset is supported, but based on = experience with re(4) 1 Gbps NICs, I would avoid it like the plague. I = have several home "servers" with on board re(4) NICs (disabled in = firmware now, so I can't get the specific chipset). I would have random = connectivity problems such as samba shares randomly disappearing or = systems becoming unresponsive over the network, especially during a file = transfer (size didn't matter). While annoying, I never spent the time = to get to the bottom of it. One day I actually paid some attention to = /var/log/messages and saw frequent, random link state changes (DOWN then = UP) across all of the machines. =46rom some googling, this seems to be = a common issue. Replaced them all with some Intel em(4) NICs and things = have been solid since. =20 Hope that helps. Chris= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 18 23:54:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3032338899 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:54:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from mail.nomadlogic.org (mail.nomadlogic.org [174.136.98.114]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.nomadlogic.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nzM15F6Vz4GhQ for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:54:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from [192.168.1.160] (cpe-23-243-161-111.socal.res.rr.com [23.243.161.111]) by mail.nomadlogic.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 14dc10c1 (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:54:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: very slow - WCPU To: ajtiM , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200617194452.14bcdecc@dismail.de> <2b40677e-d718-2381-f1af-a8b2cfb93b6e@nomadlogic.org> <20200618174533.5ed6e81a@dismail.de> From: Pete Wright Message-ID: <01075511-e0e0-dc81-30ea-26006f28efbf@nomadlogic.org> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 16:54:46 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200618174533.5ed6e81a@dismail.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nzM15F6Vz4GhQ X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pete@nomadlogic.org designates 174.136.98.114 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@nomadlogic.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.61 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.89)[-0.890]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nomadlogic.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.86)[-0.858]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.56)[-0.558]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:25795, ipnet:174.136.96.0/20, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[23.243.161.111:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:54:54 -0000 On 6/18/20 2:45 PM, ajtiM via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:19:51 -0700 > Pete Wright wrote: > >> >> On 6/17/20 4:44 PM, ajtiM via freebsd-questions wrote: >>> Hi! >>> >>> For whatever reason after few last updates I cannot use FreeCAD >>> (WCPU 99,7%), Cura (3D printing) - WCPU time is good for >>> cura-engine but Python 3.7 is 100.22% and Blender stop working >>> because "Error! Unsupported graphics card or driver. A graphics >>> card and driver with support for OpenGL 3.3 or higher is required. >>> The program will now close." >> Can you provide information on which graphics card you are using, and >> if you have installed/configured the appropriate drivers?  That will >> most likely help people here better answer you question. >> >> cheers, >> -pete >> > I am sorry: > > vgapci0@pci0:1:0:0: class=0x030000 card=0x00b5106b > chip=0x944a1002 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, > Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device = 'RV770/M98L [Mobility Radeon HD 4850]' > class = display > subclass = VGA > hdac0@pci0:1:0:1: class=0x040300 card=0xaa30106b chip=0xaa301002 > rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' > device = 'RV770 HDMI Audio [Radeon HD 4850/4870]' > class = multimedia > subclass = HDA > > I have installed FreeBSD (just FreeBSD) on iMac 11,1 and tha last when > I used KMS drivers was FreeBSD 11.1 after that just black screen. > And because that I am using scfb driver and I didn't have a problem > with FreeBSD, Cura nad Blender and stopped as I wrote with the last > updates. > Should help if I downgrade qt5-opengl, please? So the issues you are seeing is because you are using the scfb driver which is a software only driver.  So it would be expected to see really poor performance of 3d applications, as well as others which require hardware acceleration failing to start. i am not sure about the status of DRM on apple hardware but there might be someone on this or the freebsd-x11@ list who can let you know if hardware acceleration is supported. cheers, -pete -- Pete Wright pete@nomadlogic.org @nomadlogicLA From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 00:22:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34C8339555 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 00:22:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from starikarp@dismail.de) Received: from mx2.dismail.de (mx2.dismail.de [159.69.191.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mx2.dismail.de", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49nzyp6ZwCz4JDt for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 00:22:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from starikarp@dismail.de) Received: from mx2.dismail.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 1c8134ea for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 02:22:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2.dismail.de ( [10.240.26.12]) by mx2.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 6e346293 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 02:22:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2.dismail.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 4d1b0848 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 02:22:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 8d4c0975 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO) for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 02:22:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:22:21 -0400 From: ajtiM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: very slow - WCPU Message-ID: <20200618202221.4b375e90@dismail.de> In-Reply-To: <01075511-e0e0-dc81-30ea-26006f28efbf@nomadlogic.org> References: <20200617194452.14bcdecc@dismail.de> <2b40677e-d718-2381-f1af-a8b2cfb93b6e@nomadlogic.org> <20200618174533.5ed6e81a@dismail.de> <01075511-e0e0-dc81-30ea-26006f28efbf@nomadlogic.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49nzyp6ZwCz4JDt X-Spamd-Bar: ------ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.67 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.977]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[dismail.de:s=20190914]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[dismail.de:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:159.69.191.136]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.005]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[dismail.de:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[159.69.191.136:from]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[dismail.de,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.989]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:159.69.0.0/16, country:DE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 00:22:27 -0000 On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 16:54:46 -0700 Pete Wright wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 6/18/20 2:45 PM, ajtiM via freebsd-questions wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 17:19:51 -0700 > > Pete Wright wrote: > > > >> > >> On 6/17/20 4:44 PM, ajtiM via freebsd-questions wrote: > >>> Hi! > >>> > >>> For whatever reason after few last updates I cannot use FreeCAD > >>> (WCPU 99,7%), Cura (3D printing) - WCPU time is good for > >>> cura-engine but Python 3.7 is 100.22% and Blender stop working > >>> because "Error! Unsupported graphics card or driver. A graphics > >>> card and driver with support for OpenGL 3.3 or higher is required. > >>> The program will now close." > >> Can you provide information on which graphics card you are using, > >> and if you have installed/configured the appropriate drivers? > >> That will most likely help people here better answer you question. > >> > >> cheers, > >> -pete > >> > > I am sorry: > > > > vgapci0@pci0:1:0:0: class=3D0x030000 card=3D0x00b5106b > > chip=3D0x944a1002 rev=3D0x00 hdr=3D0x00 vendor =3D 'Advanced Micro > > Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device =3D 'RV770/M98L [Mobility Radeon > > HD 4850]' class =3D display > > subclass =3D VGA > > hdac0@pci0:1:0:1: class=3D0x040300 card=3D0xaa30106b > > chip=3D0xaa301002 rev=3D0x00 hdr=3D0x00 vendor =3D 'Advanced Micro > > Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]' device =3D 'RV770 HDMI Audio [Radeon HD > > 4850/4870]' class =3D multimedia > > subclass =3D HDA > > > > I have installed FreeBSD (just FreeBSD) on iMac 11,1 and tha last > > when I used KMS drivers was FreeBSD 11.1 after that just black > > screen. And because that I am using scfb driver and I didn't have a > > problem with FreeBSD, Cura nad Blender and stopped as I wrote with > > the last updates. > > Should help if I downgrade qt5-opengl, please? >=20 > So the issues you are seeing is because you are using the scfb driver=20 > which is a software only driver.=C2=A0 So it would be expected to see > really poor performance of 3d applications, as well as others which > require hardware acceleration failing to start. >=20 > i am not sure about the status of DRM on apple hardware but there > might be someone on this or the freebsd-x11@ list who can let you > know if hardware acceleration is supported. >=20 > cheers, > -pete >=20 Now is the third year as I have problem with divers. I did ask on X11 mailing list, in the Forum, on github but it doesn't work. It worked on 11,1 FreeBSD and no more. Just black screen. But to the week or something ago I didn't have a problem to work with FreeCAD with scfb driver. I will try to downgrade qt5-opengl because I think all the mess started with this update. BTW I am using Openbox. Thank you. --=20 Ernst Lubitsch=E2=80=99s Ninotchka:=20 =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98Waiter! A cup of coffee without cream, please!=E2=80=99 = =E2=80=98I=E2=80=99m sorry, sir, we have no cream, only milk, so can it be a coffee without milk?=E2=80=99=E2= =80=9D=20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 01:09:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09B033A719 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 01:09:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49p11Z5Nqrz4LWP for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 01:09:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B8F7F33A699; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 01:09:54 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C2233A1EA for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 01:09:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49p11Y4z3Lz4LWN for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 01:09:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1592528992; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=BWAxbZ1Kue+udVtMbgD9pAw2igQ=; b=FyKMggZhPpPy/cp5GVzI7k5qRgRzvFXCurDQpkrszDjsdSJOOYX99Vqx1nyeomcW oDfNRCoaqVTHE4DlmFoVbeUpo4s/NxuEt5pXyenI3iYIxZ6/A7siXbvOWcWMzlsI q63kbCB6jH9Ve19voTGi1TOXh86KYh8mxiELoqCjJtFXF+3q2kntvJ0+pNSSOMVZ Te4N8azJTaVck1WAfrJ3bB3qscMr/xIFwXRVpPNM2CMmyyx/MpGxLJmPly/9f2gC Ops7hYDD94yUW1DKWXBT9MNDESehrqxj4WvFPNL+UO1uljgTpVbPkgEoeS2Tf5hC 9iqp9uKX/qKVI09EJPF07w==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=F/kpiZpN c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=_9nhKvcJfbfH2Zup-z0A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:54080] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id F0/35-51190-0601CEE5; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 21:09:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24300.4191.807566.374602@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 21:09:51 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: Chris Gordon Cc: Mel Pilgrim , questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RealTek 2.5 GbE (RTL8125) support? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49p11Y4z3Lz4LWN X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=FyKMggZh; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.06 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[69.168.97.78:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.039]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.909]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.011]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[69.168.97.78:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 01:09:55 -0000 Chris Gordon writes: > From some googling, this seems to be a common issue. Replaced them > all with some Intel em(4) NICs and things have been solid since. I'd like to support the em() cards also. I have a dual-port 82546EB card that's been 24x7 (modulo OS upgrade reboots) for over ten years and it's still happily chugging along. Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 05:14:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E7533F14B for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 05:14:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from arne@Steinkamm.COM) Received: from mail.steinkamm.com (mail.steinkamm.com [194.127.175.194]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "steinkamm.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49p6RH68Jhz4XnS for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 05:14:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from arne@Steinkamm.COM) Received: from trajan.stk.cx (trajan.stk.cx [10.8.8.110]) by basis.steinkamm.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05J5Dp79000969 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:13:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from arne@steinkamm.com) Received: from trajan.stk.cx (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by trajan.stk.cx (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05J5DooA060720 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:13:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from arne@trajan.stk.cx) Received: (from arne@localhost) by trajan.stk.cx (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 05J5Dmdi059032; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:13:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from arne) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:13:47 +0200 From: Arne Steinkamm To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: arne@steinkamm.com Subject: MUAs we use Message-ID: <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> Reply-To: arne@Steinkamm.COM References: <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> User-Agent: Mutt@Trajan/1.12.1 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on basis.steinkamm.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49p6RH68Jhz4XnS X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of arne@Steinkamm.COM has no SPF policy when checking 194.127.175.194) smtp.mailfrom=arne@Steinkamm.COM X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.68 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[arne@Steinkamm.COM]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[Steinkamm.COM]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.77)[0.768]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.75)[0.752]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.04)[-0.035]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[freebsd-questions@Steinkamm.COM,arne@Steinkamm.COM]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34646, ipnet:194.127.175.0/24, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[freebsd-questions@Steinkamm.COM,arne@Steinkamm.COM]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 05:14:05 -0000 Hi folks, inspired from the "Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd" and "freebsd vs. netbsd" postings (I havn't read them all) I was looking in my recent freebsd-questions archive... >From the last 10828 Postings to this mailing list 4146 had an User-Agent line. I (grep, uniq, sort :-) ) counted them. Here is the result: 365 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 304 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 299 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 244 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 167 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 128 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 115 SquirrelMail/1.4.22-5.el6 94 Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) 92 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 91 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 88 Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) 82 Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) 80 SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] 74 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) 71 Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) 69 Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) 64 Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) 63 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 56 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 56 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) 56 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) 55 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) 53 Alpine 2.21.9999 (BSF 287 2018-06-16) 50 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 49 Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) 46 Mutt/1.11.4 (2019-03-13) 41 Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) 38 slrn/1.0.3 (FreeBSD) 38 Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) 37 Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) 35 Alpine 2.21 (BSF 202 2017-01-01) 32 SquirrelMail/1.4.8-5.el5.centos.7 32 NeoMutt/20180716 32 Mutt/1.8.0 (2017-02-23) 30 Roundcube Webmail/1.1.2 30 Roundcube Webmail/0.9.2 29 Mutt/1.9.3 (2018-01-21) 29 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 29 K-9 Mail for Android 27 Alpine 2.21.99999 (BSF 352 2019-06-22) 26 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 25 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.8 25 Alpine 2.22 (BSF 395 2020-01-19) 24 Mutt/1.9.2 (2017-12-15) 23 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; 21 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (berkeley-unix) 20 Mutt/1.9.5 (2018-04-13) 19 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 18 KMail/1.9.10 17 Mutt/1.4.2.3i 17 Heirloom mailx 12.5 6/20/10 17 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (berkeley-unix) 14 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) 13 Mutt/1.11.2 (2019-01-07) 13 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 13 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) 13 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.2 (berkeley-unix) 12 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (berkeley-unix) 11 Postbox 5.0.25 (Windows/20180328) 11 Dekko/0.6.20; Qt/5.4.1; ubuntumirclient; Linux; 11 CodeIgniter 10 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.6 10 Mutt/1.12.0 (2019-05-25) 10 Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) 10 Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) 10 Alpine 2.21 (NEB 202 2017-01-01) 10 Alpine 2.21 (LRH 202 2017-01-01) 9 Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) 9 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD i386; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 9 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:60.0) 8 NeoMutt/20171027 8 NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) 8 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 8 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:68.0) 7 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 7 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 7 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) 6 WebMail 6 SOGoMail 4.3.0 6 Opera Mail/1.0 (Win32) 6 NeoMutt/20200501 6 Mutt@Trajan/1.12.1 6 Evolution 3.30.1 5 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.4 5 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.3 5 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:60.0) 5 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:60.0) 5 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (berkeley-unix) 4 Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) 4 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.5 4 Roundcube Webmail 4 Mutt/1.8.3 (2017-05-23) 4 Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) 4 Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) 4 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 4 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (berkeley-unix) 4 Evolution 3.36.3 4 Evolution 3.36.2 4 Every email client sucks, this one just sucks less. 4 Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-351-g9981f4f-fmstable-20200421v1 4 Alpine 2.22 (BSF 419 2020-04-12) 3 Webmail Free/1.3.3 3 Roundcube Webmail/1.4-beta 3 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.7 3 Mutt/1.8.2 (2017-04-18) 3 Mutt/1.6.1 (2016-04-27) 3 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 3 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) 3 KMail/4.14.10 (FreeBSD/11.2-RELEASE-p2; KDE/4.14.38; amd64; ; ) 3 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (berkeley-unix) 3 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-1082-g13d7805-fmstable-20200403v1 3 Alpine 2.21.99999 (OSX 374 2019-10-27) 3 Alpine 2.21.999 (BSF 260 2018-02-26) 2 Webmail 2 Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/28.0 Mule/6.0 2 Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/27.0 Mule/6.0 2 slrn/1.0.3 (Linux) 2 Saremail webmail 2 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.1 2 Roundcube Webmail/1.1.3 2 Roundcube Webmail/1.1.10 2 NeoMutt/20180223 2 Mutt/1.11.3 (2019-02-01) 2 Mutt/1.11.0 (2018-11-25) 2 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; de-DE; 2 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 2 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 2 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 2 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:52.0) 2 KMail/4.14.10 (FreeBSD/11.1-RELEASE-p4; KDE/4.14.30; amd64; ; ) 2 KMail/1.9.10 (enterprise35 0.20100827.1168748) 2 Heirloom mailx 12.5 7/5/10 2 Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 2 Evolution 3.34.3 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-802-g7a41c81-fmstable-20200203v1 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-238-g170a812-fmstable-20190913v1 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-736-gdfb8e44-fmstable-20190718v2 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-731-g19d3b16-fmstable-20190627v1 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-555-g49357e1-fmstable-20190528v2 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-449-gfb3fc5a-fmstable-20190430v1 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-332-g22ddc6a-fmstable-20190412v1 2 AquaMail/1.20.0-1462 (build: 102100002) 2 Alpine 2.21.9 (DEB 223 2017-09-30) 2 Alpine 2.03 (LRH 1266 2009-07-14) 1 Zoho Mail 1 Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) 1 SquirrelMail/1.5.2 [SVN] 1 SquirrelMail/1.5.1 1 safo Webmail 1 Roundcube Webmail/1.4.4 1 Roundcube Webmail/1.4-rc2 1 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.9 1 Roundcube Webmail/1.2.4 1 Roundcube Webmail/1.2.3 1 Roundcube Webmail/1.2.0 1 Roundcube Webmail/0.9.5 1 RoundCube Webmail/0.5.4 1 Postbox 5.0.18 (Windows/20170825) 1 Postbox 4.0.8 (Windows/20151105) 1 PMMail/3.22 (os/2; U; Warp 4.5; en-US; i386; ver 3.22.00.2301) 1 OutScare 3.1415926 1 Opera Mail/12.16 (FreeBSD) 1 NeoMutt/20200424 1 NeoMutt/20180716-16-18b056-dirty 1 NeoMutt/20180512 1 NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) 1 Mutt/1.6.0 (2016-04-01) 1 Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) 1 Mutt/1.14.0 (2020-05-02) 1 Mutt 1.11.1 (2018-12-01) (UNIX) (Linux 4.19.8-2-MANJARO (unknown)) 1 Mutt 1.11.0 (2018-11-25) (UNIX) (Linux 4.19.6-1-MANJARO (unknown)) 1 mutt 1 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; 1 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 1 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 1 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD i386; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 1 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD i386; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 1 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 1 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 1 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; 1 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; 1 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 1 MailAPI 1 KMail/4.14.10 (FreeBSD/11.2-RELEASE-p3; KDE/4.14.38; amd64; ; ) 1 KMail/4.14.10 (FreeBSD/10.3-RELEASE-p24; KDE/4.14.30; amd64; ; ) 1 KMail/4.14.10 (FreeBSD/10.3-RELEASE-p20; KDE/4.14.30; amd64; ; ) 1 Horde Application Framework 5 1 Evolution 3.36.1 1 Evolution 3.32.4 1 Evolution 3.30.3-1 1 Evolution 3.30.3 1 Evolution 3.30.2 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-529-g3ee424a-fm-20200611.001-g3ee424a1 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-781-gfc16016-fmstable-20200127v1 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-578-g826f590-fmstable-20191119v1 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-470-gedfae93-fmstable-20191021v4 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-360-g7dda896-fmstable-20191004v2 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-237-gf35468d-fmstable-20190912v1 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-663-gf46ad30-fmstable-20190607v1 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.5-925-g644bf8c-fmstable-20190228v5 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.5-832-gba113d7-fmstable-20190201v1 1 AquaMail/1.22.0-1511 (build: 102200004) 1 Android 1 Alpine 2.22 (DEB 395 2020-01-19) 1 Alpine 2.21.9999 (OSX 337 2019-05-05) 1 1blu Webmail .//. Arne -- Arne Steinkamm | Home: Mail: arnesteinkammcom From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 06:55:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392C8341B09 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 06:55:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49p8hT30jDz4dgq for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 06:55:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49p8hR33vzzFcvC for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:55:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592549735; bh=eYJOJl8ZRIB2tSXWK38ZQ8h0wSd5YDNCMvs/4vsPPrc=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=AYbSEL9ZdIns05oAe7IxYYqL5/wtgrIXI0Mepy6BF2Qvp3Q4N1PKCs5wVdDRWJvtw 0lNYwGuXjZ/pglCFsi2k8NclxqQaL2fCdVPzVruTfhHD0f+lC8OaPDfr2Y5Eqog97z Mp9waz9MPkstCqRZJXFK9t5l0ktw7Qy6WJqAe+9Y= X-Riseup-User-ID: B6EACAF002B2E327C32625B4A86E7634084EBEE7274889D4E85F8EA0DC348C1E Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49p8hQ5KKmz8tqS for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:55:31 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MUAs we use Message-ID: <20200619085531.30489733@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> References: <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49p8hT30jDz4dgq X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=AYbSEL9Z; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.23 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.029]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.60)[-0.597]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.004]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 06:55:38 -0000 On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:13:47 +0200, Arne Steinkamm wrote: >From the last 10828 Postings to this mailing list 4146 had an >User-Agent line. > >I (grep, uniq, sort :-) ) counted them. Here is the result: JFTR your list is missing at least Claws Mail, Sylpheed and Evolution 3.36.3 ;). [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ grep -r -A20 -i Jun\ 2020 ".local/share/evolution/mail/local/.FreeBSD.Quest/cur/" | grep Claws | cut -d: -f3 | sort -u Claws Mail (linux) Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ grep -r -A20 -i Jun\ 2020 ".local/share/evolution/mail/local/.FreeBSD.Quest/cur/" | grep Sylpheed\ 3 | cut -d: -f3 | sort -u Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ grep -r -A20 -i Jun\ 2020 ".local/share/evolution/mail/local/.FreeBSD.Quest/cur/" | grep Evolution\ 3.36.3 | cut -d: -f3 | sort -u Evolution 3.36.3 My grep, cut, sort scripts are inaccurate, but still accurate enough to prove your statistic wrong, since after executing even an inaccurate search, it's possible to verify the message headers by taking a look at a few messages. Even if I would have written accurate scripts to check what is on my machine, it might not provide all mails from the list. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 07:07:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB10034202D for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:07:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000f0c3b6.2f66f34331e9411c293d6f197c2f001c@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49p8y14DfLz4fLj for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:07:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000f0c3b6.2f66f34331e9411c293d6f197c2f001c@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592550442; x=1595142442; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=NokARRglhnjbB3E59B49UUpc5xSjyxywJKdwLWI1vrA=; b=NM7k0Ed4cf+CvA04DyT3WCllgPmjtPbVn47HXm12ZgGaiD9U86jNpClJvnw5sSPrQIVKlCc385O9Lh+zAuP93PX9SEh/8pT04RJlJBq0tw0EiNrx+25d0VtOdQ51vvEBjaRSybamotBzj4tOKAH6yJcihsoztaDLdGQ+FPOeItI= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDBmMGMzYjYuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r4.h.in.socketlabs.com (s1-b40f.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.180.15]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 03:07:18 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r4.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 03:07:17 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jmB7L-0000RO-QO; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:07:15 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:07:15 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: arne@Steinkamm.COM Cc: Arne Steinkamm , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, arne@steinkamm.com Subject: Re: MUAs we use Message-Id: <20200619080715.633368ca3aa92e9b0458bd04@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> References: <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49p8y14DfLz4fLj X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=NM7k0Ed4; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20000f0c3b6.2f66f34331e9411c293d6f197c2f001c@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20000f0c3b6.2f66f34331e9411c293d6f197c2f001c@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.17 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.015]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.002]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.46)[-0.455]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000f0c3b6.2f66f34331e9411c293d6f197c2f001c@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000f0c3b6.2f66f34331e9411c293d6f197c2f001c@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:07:24 -0000 On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:13:47 +0200 Arne Steinkamm wrote: > Hi folks, > > inspired from the > "Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd" and > "freebsd vs. netbsd" > postings (I havn't read them all) > I was looking in my recent freebsd-questions archive... > > From the last 10828 Postings to this mailing list 4146 had an User-Agent > line. You should try looking at the X-Mailer header instead of User-Agent. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 07:10:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5DC234225B for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:10:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49p91b1PGTz4fWy for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:10:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49p91L0r3zzFgRp for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 00:10:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592550625; bh=seXJgGQIruYmthTSfEjUJc+2UrF+4s1rCiQW4Z8wa3U=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=eAb6Un1PKe54uEfLQ0LN4hWymZcwadrc84XKU60Czh8XZFS6W8hXAGS7VE8pG5GIq JPHYyURW0Oy9yeDqorz60427KPGwnt7yL2jKWcNTbxASBC8eYyGXjTmCgNI8xG/XMz smvK4zEsQpy6WH6YcjNUxSHgK6g+RmGsQxcMAsfU= X-Riseup-User-ID: 029AC130846635996E1C6C930187159457E26C2004A62251EB680A6DFE4EF68A Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49p91K3Q61zJqy3 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 00:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:10:11 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MUAs we use Message-ID: <20200619091011.15865d7e@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200619085531.30489733@archlinux> References: <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> <20200619085531.30489733@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49p91b1PGTz4fWy X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=eAb6Un1P; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.22 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.028]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.59)[-0.589]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.003]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:10:27 -0000 PS: Even if you would include X-Mailer and would get additional results such as "Apple Mail", "Claws" ... you need to ensure that all mails are available, that came through the list and only those. You need to provide the information about the uniqueness, how many subscribers use more than just one MUA etc., pp. In the end it would result in an accurate statistic, that anyway would be more or less meaningless. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 07:33:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C466A342D05 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:33:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49p9Xb62sqz3S2N for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:33:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49p9XY6V6RzFf3T for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 00:33:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592552029; bh=FJOXGqOpRQqINNK+GSf2MyojjkU4CT1KUy9CokBmdIw=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=HlvyKiACgaSNuZ/SVwQgapVawTUYGEgw6uogSAYhaUdyzvohExtzebcR5qUjXivgX pXhwcmUnABgFAFOd9+P4pJCK4PvrgXOthPUeflztc6rI3kc5uw10a7cfHQ7W0ukpht lNYoUAJrMp4S0dq1oHDLst72o2OLUwb9P4qSXpzw= X-Riseup-User-ID: BC913BF19957DC8FCE15B71F0A8BEF122889374CE60866AEFB35861DF7C760C2 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49p9XY1jJfzJpct for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 00:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:33:47 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MUAs we use Message-ID: <20200619093347.7afc8a32@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200619080715.633368ca3aa92e9b0458bd04@sohara.org> References: <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> <20200619080715.633368ca3aa92e9b0458bd04@sohara.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49p9Xb62sqz3S2N X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=HlvyKiAC; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.19 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.024]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.57)[-0.566]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:33:52 -0000 On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:07:15 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > You should try looking at the X-Mailer header instead of > User-Agent. The way we could use 'curl' and fake a browser User-Agent name, we also could use (even GUI) MUAs to fake the X-Mailer header. For example: Claws > Configuration > Edit accounts... > select an account > Send > [ ] unckeck 'Add user agent header' [x] check 'Add user-defined header' This is done quite often. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 07:54:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDAB23432A8 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:54:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000f13cca.1ed8631dc6ec0597836b93f2c0c0d51e@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pB0s0BZtz3Ss1 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:54:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000f13cca.1ed8631dc6ec0597836b93f2c0c0d51e@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592553293; x=1595145293; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=+zpzFoLpe/BI82MT9DA0Cc5qYfe1JZruznOC2076VfQ=; b=H6iM9RqO2pxPuXLG63N+CAYAh7J4OGQsQ1AwXMc4hBi1lW0rOgjYcxZoV/8qrUdJbYOEWj7K7P7Gevc1yDVb+cpwEdxk674NiHvwdqdEgZQxBNzf2TMnTmKWg2uXPx0XithaEDsJonRM66g/Fw/IBy1C7d9PltJCIpPw/6RZWMw= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDBmMTNjY2EuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.190.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 03:54:50 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 03:54:48 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jmBrJ-0000YK-Ux; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:54:45 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:54:45 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MUAs we use Message-Id: <20200619085445.d39eea520279b564453f82a2@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200619093347.7afc8a32@archlinux> References: <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> <20200619080715.633368ca3aa92e9b0458bd04@sohara.org> <20200619093347.7afc8a32@archlinux> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pB0s0BZtz3Ss1 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=H6iM9RqO; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20000f13cca.1ed8631dc6ec0597836b93f2c0c0d51e@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20000f13cca.1ed8631dc6ec0597836b93f2c0c0d51e@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.011]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.938]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000f13cca.1ed8631dc6ec0597836b93f2c0c0d51e@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000f13cca.1ed8631dc6ec0597836b93f2c0c0d51e@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:54:53 -0000 On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:33:47 +0200 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:07:15 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > You should try looking at the X-Mailer header instead of > > User-Agent. > > The way we could use 'curl' and fake a browser User-Agent name, we also > could use (even GUI) MUAs to fake the X-Mailer header. > > For example: > > Claws > Configuration > Edit accounts... > select an account > Send > > [ ] unckeck 'Add user agent header' > [x] check 'Add user-defined header' > > This is done quite often. Oh sure it's very dirty data, but if you're going to analyse it analyse the right bits. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 08:45:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F38B3442CC for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:45:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from admin@cpcnw.co.uk) Received: from mout-p-201.mailbox.org (mout-p-201.mailbox.org [80.241.56.171]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pC6y166Tz3W8j for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:45:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from admin@cpcnw.co.uk) Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org (smtp1.mailbox.org [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:105:465:1:1:0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-201.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pC6v6ZfYzQlKq for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:45:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.240]) by gerste.heinlein-support.de (gerste.heinlein-support.de [91.198.250.173]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTP id tMxHXrWe7HNW for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:45:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:45:07 +0100 From: Graham Bentley To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: ImageMagick6 fails make on Perl version? Message-ID: <20200619094507.456b92e9@3bsd> Organization: Custom PC North West MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MBO-SPAM-Probability: 0 X-Rspamd-Score: -4.25 / 15.00 / 15.00 X-Rspamd-UID: 64bee0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pC6y166Tz3W8j X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of admin@cpcnw.co.uk designates 80.241.56.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=admin@cpcnw.co.uk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.08 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.938]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:80.241.56.0/21]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.966]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.27)[-0.272]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cpcnw.co.uk]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:199118, ipnet:80.241.56.0/21, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[80.241.56.171:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:45:15 -0000 Hi All, I want to batch convert .png to .xpm for a Fluxbox theme and decided to try 'convert' which is part of the ImageMagick suite. I got stuck on make though here; ===> texinfo-6.7_3,1 depends on package: p5-Locale-libintl>=0 - not found ===> License GPLv3+ accepted by the user ===> p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 depends on file: /usr/local/sbin/pkg - found ===> Fetching all distfiles required by p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 for building ===> Extracting for p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 => SHA256 Checksum OK for libintl-perl-1.31.tar.gz. ===> Patching for p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 ===> p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 depends on executable: msgfmt - found ===> p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 depends on package: perl5>=5.30.r1<5.31 - found ===> p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 depends on shared library: libiconv.so - found (/usr/local/lib/libiconv.so) ===> p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 depends on shared library: libintl.so - found (/usr/local/lib/libintl.so) ===> Configuring for p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 env: /usr/local/bin/perl5.30.3: No such file or directory *** Error code 127 # perl -v This is perl 5, version 30, subversion 2 (v5.30.2) built for amd64-freebsd-thread-multi Any tips? Thanks a mill! -- Graham Bentley Custom PC North West Web: www.cpcnw.co.uk Mobile: 07970 040237 Office: 01704 778241 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 09:41:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FEC345A75 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:41:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from arne@Steinkamm.COM) Received: from mail.steinkamm.com (mail.steinkamm.com [194.127.175.194]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "steinkamm.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pDNJ6Jk5z3Z0n for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:41:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from arne@Steinkamm.COM) Received: from trajan.stk.cx (trajan.stk.cx [10.8.8.110]) by basis.steinkamm.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05J9flKv003651 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 11:41:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from arne@steinkamm.com) Received: from trajan.stk.cx (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by trajan.stk.cx (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05J9fliL000757 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 11:41:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from arne@trajan.stk.cx) Received: (from arne@localhost) by trajan.stk.cx (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 05J9fk22099614; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 11:41:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from arne) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 11:41:46 +0200 From: Arne Steinkamm To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, arne@steinkamm.com Subject: Re: MUAs we use Message-ID: <20200619094146.GH89652@trajan.stk.cx> Reply-To: arne@Steinkamm.COM References: <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> <20200619085531.30489733@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200619085531.30489733@archlinux> User-Agent: Mutt@Trajan/1.12.1 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on basis.steinkamm.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pDNJ6Jk5z3Z0n X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of arne@Steinkamm.COM has no SPF policy when checking 194.127.175.194) smtp.mailfrom=arne@Steinkamm.COM X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.35 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[arne@Steinkamm.COM]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[Steinkamm.COM]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.63)[0.629]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.34)[-0.335]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.86)[0.858]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[freebsd-questions@Steinkamm.COM,arne@Steinkamm.COM]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34646, ipnet:194.127.175.0/24, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[freebsd-questions@Steinkamm.COM,arne@Steinkamm.COM]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:41:55 -0000 On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:55:31AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:13:47 +0200, Arne Steinkamm wrote: > >From the last 10828 Postings to this mailing list 4146 had an > >User-Agent line. > > > >I (grep, uniq, sort :-) ) counted them. Here is the result: > JFTR your list is missing at least Claws Mail, Sylpheed and Evolution > 3.36.3 ;). [...] > My grep, cut, sort scripts are inaccurate, but still accurate enough to > prove your statistic wrong, since after executing even an inaccurate > search, it's possible to verify the message headers by taking a look at > a few messages. Even if I would have written accurate scripts to check > what is on my machine, it might not provide all mails from the list. I never spoke about making a statistic. I said: "From the last 10828 Postings to this mailing list 4146 had an User-Agent line." There is no single line containing a regexp matching anything like ^User-Agent:.*Claws etc. I know that this is no suitable tool to make a real statistic. It was fun. Just delete my inital email and be happy. .//. Arne -- Arne Steinkamm | Home: Mail: arnesteinkammcom From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 10:33:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC5B347186 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:33:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000f44fab.df25fda5962fd8a1101f01539c207411@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pFXM3KZXz3cT5 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:33:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000f44fab.df25fda5962fd8a1101f01539c207411@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592562835; x=1595154835; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; 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amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pFXM3KZXz3cT5 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=BWNUxAHB; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20000f44fab.df25fda5962fd8a1101f01539c207411@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20000f44fab.df25fda5962fd8a1101f01539c207411@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.99 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.013]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.27)[-1.267]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000f44fab.df25fda5962fd8a1101f01539c207411@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000f44fab.df25fda5962fd8a1101f01539c207411@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:33:57 -0000 On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 11:41:46 +0200 Arne Steinkamm wrote: > There is no single line containing a regexp matching anything like > ^User-Agent:.*Claws etc. That's because Claws, like many MUAs sets X-Mailer but not User-Agent. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 10:53:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9592A3475B8 for ; 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Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:53:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from arne@trajan.stk.cx) Received: (from arne@localhost) by trajan.stk.cx (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 05JArEAv037826; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:53:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from arne) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:53:14 +0200 From: Arne Steinkamm To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: arne@steinkamm.com, Ralf Mardorf , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MUAs we use Message-ID: <20200619105314.GI89652@trajan.stk.cx> Reply-To: arne@Steinkamm.COM References: <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> <20200619085531.30489733@archlinux> <20200619094146.GH89652@trajan.stk.cx> <20200619113347.605acd4f88b08b063b8286d0@sohara.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200619113347.605acd4f88b08b063b8286d0@sohara.org> User-Agent: Mutt@Trajan/1.12.1 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on basis.steinkamm.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pFyl3rKhz3drV X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of arne@Steinkamm.COM has no SPF policy when checking 194.127.175.194) smtp.mailfrom=arne@Steinkamm.COM X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.73 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[arne@Steinkamm.COM]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[Steinkamm.COM]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.63)[0.625]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.04)[-0.036]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.94)[0.940]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[freebsd-questions@Steinkamm.COM,arne@Steinkamm.COM]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34646, ipnet:194.127.175.0/24, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[freebsd-questions@Steinkamm.COM,arne@Steinkamm.COM]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:53:20 -0000 On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:33:47AM +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 11:41:46 +0200 > Arne Steinkamm wrote: > > > There is no single line containing a regexp matching anything like > > ^User-Agent:.*Claws etc. > > That's because Claws, like many MUAs sets X-Mailer but not > User-Agent. Yeah... I know.. There's a bunch of hints which MUA is used in header and body of the email... The User-Agent line is the most common one as my numbers proof. I just wanted to express how unhappy I'm with responses like that from Ralf Mardorf... But to add this: 3569 mails out of the 10828 I have uncompressed online on disk have a x-mailer line. 688 from them indicate claws. .//. Arne -- Arne Steinkamm | Home: Mail: arnesteinkammcom From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 11:20:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596B9348114 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 11:20:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x841.google.com (mail-qt1-x841.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::841]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pGZ22T1yz3g0K for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 11:20:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x841.google.com with SMTP id e16so6880645qtg.0 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 04:20:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=qg1U1jZ/wqYG/H7B7e+owGnR5+MwShHx8CYNrS/EDvg=; b=f2G5Zcg0WH7DFT94ZBtfF/qD0ZMqTF12+Z/dK/YkqQX1MCKYBZqznw8x+ihOsiP2aJ kj95qjZu2Z8ifZMIQqH2AIMMA9V+tPJoNiZGio8uFC34L4IhGatjSanoXe1h7v+7z6iw c1KgW7VULRM02nKiKeLheSWjKIxWoQPUiDq+Y= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=qg1U1jZ/wqYG/H7B7e+owGnR5+MwShHx8CYNrS/EDvg=; b=hh1wpwGa1DTREhyL5X6QDwVz44XNiKG0M0Ugwj0hIY+YRaeofNjriddzluBDlsh4Ij iy2dKROBHykyEj6lEfizIZNjWPgI3DXC6s4fn+pVrsXzovvPZrXmZ7TlT4FguPALnTLD LpHAtDceywgB1ERRnrXoZwYclUdx184Vtzxny35C5DRFL+WG4vCFmCwEk9Vi4rcV6o9o wgJMb1J3p9jbmh/86UxWrmic8tMdTPJFHxB/96ucxYJ3J/JDAB49w71IRnKpCgn3jb0i Ibtsh3Ts71qSNTj/LUK6lCmuEcSmTcrera0UzK7CwVgsVlMX/C9WAVtR0mVtZqlYAP2z Q4eQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531bqnB9sekr3vth3r7Eoi9sDKxm+okNahJFEYQOvUgXGshakxrY VhoD0M4/hO0cr+WXvyMvxljGcNZB3EU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzN1dRXMQfVRIlpfXyLbKUkEHvhfT5RgSjJZbz0/VKMl9+vguPKx6Dn7QW5wmOOoyNq357pAA== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:1082:: with SMTP id a2mr996775qtj.32.1592565624616; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 04:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g21sm5378049qkm.35.2020.06.19.04.20.22 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 04:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pGYx64Htz1TqJ for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:20:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.3 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:20:02 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 Message-ID: <20200619072002.4179e527@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> <941386f3-ce71-6cf6-005c-ab9c159ce998@heuristicsystems.com.au> <20200618184438.00003f41@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/wFc6agEW2LjZeP2/ljr0XX9"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pGZ22T1yz3g0K X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=f2G5Zcg0; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::841 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.77 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.929]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.94)[-0.944]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.25)[0.247]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::841:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 11:20:27 -0000 --Sig_/wFc6agEW2LjZeP2/ljr0XX9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 18:55:24 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: >On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 6:45 PM Jerry wrote: > >> On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:19:12 +1000, Dewayne Geraghty commented: =20 >> >Jerry, >> > >> >Aryeh's suggestion of determining the cause of the problem would be >> >beneficial as the PR >> >https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D237666 >> >appears to be caught in a non-reproducability trap. Eg "I have an X >> >on version Y and no bug" will not allay anyone's concerns. >> > >> >Also reply 103 asserts that this problem doesn't exist on 11 (ie >> >prior to 11.4). Perhaps pulling the iso's for 11.4 and using on a >> >machine that reproduces the bug with 12.1 might be a more efficient >> >path? =20 >> >> It doesn't exist on 11.x at ll. If you read through the comments, >> etcetera, it was mentioned that it is most likely a regression >> problem. Regression bugs have a nasty habit of spreading. >> =20 > >Especially if people refuse to actual test it to see if it is a bug or >not on their system. Since it is not on mine my test is meaningless >but your might not be and might help debug it so if you care about >helping the community like you do you should try it and make a >complete bug report as possible. But as I said it happens in enough >odd different places that it is 90% likely user error not an actual >bug and you just falling for FUD if you are not willing to help figure >it out. I can confirm that the bug exists on at least a Dell XPS 8930 with 32 GB RAM and Intel i3 Processor. The machine was purchased as a low-end replacement for a PC that was dying. Its sole purpose was to run a lightly used web-server and mail-server. I can confirm that it works with every version of 11.x and no versions of 12.x. I have never tested it on 10.x or 13.x however. I have went to the lengths of using the manufacturers disk to erase and format the HD and resetting the BIOS to defaults. I never messed with the defaults anyway. The error starts as soon as the CD attempts to boot-up FreeBSD 12.x. Assuming, incorrectly, that the disk was bad I did a fresh download and burned a new CD. The sane problem existed. This is not a user error. More than one person on more than one platform is experiencing this bug. I contacted Dell technical support. They confirmed that the bug exists, there is even a reference to it on their community bulletin board. They went on to say that their product was tested against Windows 10 and passed,(obviously) and against Linux and worked as intended. They stated that they DO NOT test against or guarantee their products will work with FreeBSD. They were also aware that a bug report had been filed against it in the FreeBSD Bugzilla. I really wish I had been made aware of it too. I made the suggestion that they list OSs that their equipment will not work with. They nicely stated that an operation of that extent would be beyond the scope of their technical department since their are potentially hundreds of thousands of individual configurations. I suggested that they test against a base OS installation, but they declined saying they do not test against FreeBSD. They would welcome me doing it though. Since they declined to supply me with their equipment free of charge to undertake this endeavor, I declined. The saying, "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem", is certainly apropos to you in this incident. =20 >> >Hans is clearly doing his best to address the issue but needs >> >helpful information from our active community. =20 >> >> This bug has existed since at least 2019-04-30 04:22:45 EDT when it >> was first reported. >> =20 >> >Regards, Dewayne =20 --=20 Jerry --Sig_/wFc6agEW2LjZeP2/ljr0XX9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7sn2IACgkQOHMGOIfe xWTtbggAtk7qPVJmGzFYEo3p5yqwyY7JH//HsNKrZwK/S+HVPQHMTVps7/iMCDPf WcHTZBK8KBvWem2Q2NVpJJqPW+EPa1wVGUjMvK0WW3gTCZyXt+lMtmb1gXWnKBp3 oQl1Z0BCLE3THo90OejdOM6Bh+z3pQn9Zdd1UFsDlKBnW0OuTOPag6GMn35YlJ+S pb+p5VeXkulsTTXY7dwIc4bt0uXTNKRgDbB9efUm+VHQKVzh3Z+4EEMYZEm3Mak8 9gHMk+s6itYwWkzuiJ/fQjyTt1SKWOqrI6hZbFS7I356HrJwLiCqAnNSJL0sDR2W DYUoY1UeN10Hryu1xj99EivCBXPjVQ== =FYay -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/wFc6agEW2LjZeP2/ljr0XX9-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 12:39:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5816E34AA81 for ; 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Fri, 19 Jun 2020 05:39:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> In-Reply-To: <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> From: Wesley Peng Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:39:23 +0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: MUAs we use To: arne@steinkamm.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Pobox-Relay-ID: EE358188-B229-11EA-B010-C28CBED8090B-60148086!pb-smtp1.pobox.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pJKN0sn1z42hX X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=pobox.com header.s=sasl header.b=INutBa 3; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=pobox.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley.p@pobox.com designates 64.147.108.70 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wesley.p@pobox.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[pobox.com:s=sasl]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[pobox.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.108.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[pobox.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[pobox.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.910]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.982]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.108.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.108.70:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:39:40 -0000 Hi Why the list doesn=E2=80=99t have gmail and thunderbird included? Just beca= use I have been using both. Thanks On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 1:14 PM Arne Steinkamm < freebsd-questions@steinkamm.com> wrote: > > Hi folks, > > inspired from the > "Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd" and > "freebsd vs. netbsd" > postings (I havn't read them all) > I was looking in my recent freebsd-questions archive... > > From the last 10828 Postings to this mailing list 4146 had an User-Agent > line. > > I (grep, uniq, sort :-) ) counted them. Here is the result: > > 365 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 > 304 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 > 299 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 > 244 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 > 167 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 > 128 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 > 115 SquirrelMail/1.4.22-5.el6 > 94 Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) > 92 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 > 91 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 > 88 Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) > 82 Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) > 80 SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] > 74 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) > 71 Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) > 69 Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) > 64 Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) > 63 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 > 56 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 > 56 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) > 56 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) > 55 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) > 53 Alpine 2.21.9999 (BSF 287 2018-06-16) > 50 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 > 49 Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) > 46 Mutt/1.11.4 (2019-03-13) > 41 Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) > 38 slrn/1.0.3 (FreeBSD) > 38 Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) > 37 Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) > 35 Alpine 2.21 (BSF 202 2017-01-01) > 32 SquirrelMail/1.4.8-5.el5.centos.7 > 32 NeoMutt/20180716 > 32 Mutt/1.8.0 (2017-02-23) > 30 Roundcube Webmail/1.1.2 > 30 Roundcube Webmail/0.9.2 > 29 Mutt/1.9.3 (2018-01-21) > 29 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 > 29 K-9 Mail for Android > 27 Alpine 2.21.99999 (BSF 352 2019-06-22) > 26 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 > 25 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.8 > 25 Alpine 2.22 (BSF 395 2020-01-19) > 24 Mutt/1.9.2 (2017-12-15) > 23 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; > 21 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (berkeley-unix) > 20 Mutt/1.9.5 (2018-04-13) > 19 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 > 18 KMail/1.9.10 > 17 Mutt/1.4.2.3i > 17 Heirloom mailx 12.5 6/20/10 > 17 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (berkeley-unix) > 14 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) > 13 Mutt/1.11.2 (2019-01-07) > 13 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 > 13 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) > 13 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.2 (berkeley-unix) > 12 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (berkeley-unix) > 11 Postbox 5.0.25 (Windows/20180328) > 11 Dekko/0.6.20; Qt/5.4.1; ubuntumirclient; Linux; > 11 CodeIgniter > 10 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.6 > 10 Mutt/1.12.0 (2019-05-25) > 10 Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) > 10 Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) > 10 Alpine 2.21 (NEB 202 2017-01-01) > 10 Alpine 2.21 (LRH 202 2017-01-01) > 9 Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) > 9 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD i386; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 > 9 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:60.0) > 8 NeoMutt/20171027 > 8 NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) > 8 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 > 8 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:68.0) > 7 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 > 7 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 > 7 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) > 6 WebMail > 6 SOGoMail 4.3.0 > 6 Opera Mail/1.0 (Win32) > 6 NeoMutt/20200501 > 6 Mutt@Trajan/1.12.1 > 6 Evolution 3.30.1 > 5 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.4 > 5 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.3 > 5 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:60.0) > 5 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:60.0) > 5 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (berkeley-unix) > 4 Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) > 4 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.5 > 4 Roundcube Webmail > 4 Mutt/1.8.3 (2017-05-23) > 4 Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) > 4 Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) > 4 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 > 4 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (berkeley-unix) > 4 Evolution 3.36.3 > 4 Evolution 3.36.2 > 4 Every email client sucks, this one just sucks less. > 4 Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-351-g9981f4f-fmstable-20200421v1 > 4 Alpine 2.22 (BSF 419 2020-04-12) > 3 Webmail Free/1.3.3 > 3 Roundcube Webmail/1.4-beta > 3 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.7 > 3 Mutt/1.8.2 (2017-04-18) > 3 Mutt/1.6.1 (2016-04-27) > 3 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 > 3 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) > 3 KMail/4.14.10 (FreeBSD/11.2-RELEASE-p2; KDE/4.14.38; amd64; ; ) > 3 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (berkeley-unix) > 3 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-1082-g13d7805-fmstable-20200403v1 > 3 Alpine 2.21.99999 (OSX 374 2019-10-27) > 3 Alpine 2.21.999 (BSF 260 2018-02-26) > 2 Webmail > 2 Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/28.0 Mule/6.0 > 2 Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/27.0 Mule/6.0 > 2 slrn/1.0.3 (Linux) > 2 Saremail webmail > 2 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.1 > 2 Roundcube Webmail/1.1.3 > 2 Roundcube Webmail/1.1.10 > 2 NeoMutt/20180223 > 2 Mutt/1.11.3 (2019-02-01) > 2 Mutt/1.11.0 (2018-11-25) > 2 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; de-DE; > 2 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 > 2 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 > 2 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 > 2 Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:52.0) > 2 KMail/4.14.10 (FreeBSD/11.1-RELEASE-p4; KDE/4.14.30; amd64; ; ) > 2 KMail/1.9.10 (enterprise35 0.20100827.1168748) > 2 Heirloom mailx 12.5 7/5/10 > 2 Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 > 2 Evolution 3.34.3 > 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-802-g7a41c81-fmstable-20200203v1 > 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-238-g170a812-fmstable-20190913v1 > 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-736-gdfb8e44-fmstable-20190718v2 > 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-731-g19d3b16-fmstable-20190627v1 > 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-555-g49357e1-fmstable-20190528v2 > 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-449-gfb3fc5a-fmstable-20190430v1 > 2 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-332-g22ddc6a-fmstable-20190412v1 > 2 AquaMail/1.20.0-1462 (build: 102100002) > 2 Alpine 2.21.9 (DEB 223 2017-09-30) > 2 Alpine 2.03 (LRH 1266 2009-07-14) > 1 Zoho Mail > 1 Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) > 1 SquirrelMail/1.5.2 [SVN] > 1 SquirrelMail/1.5.1 > 1 safo Webmail > 1 Roundcube Webmail/1.4.4 > 1 Roundcube Webmail/1.4-rc2 > 1 Roundcube Webmail/1.3.9 > 1 Roundcube Webmail/1.2.4 > 1 Roundcube Webmail/1.2.3 > 1 Roundcube Webmail/1.2.0 > 1 Roundcube Webmail/0.9.5 > 1 RoundCube Webmail/0.5.4 > 1 Postbox 5.0.18 (Windows/20170825) > 1 Postbox 4.0.8 (Windows/20151105) > 1 PMMail/3.22 (os/2; U; Warp 4.5; en-US; i386; ver 3.22.00.2301) > 1 OutScare 3.1415926 > 1 Opera Mail/12.16 (FreeBSD) > 1 NeoMutt/20200424 > 1 NeoMutt/20180716-16-18b056-dirty > 1 NeoMutt/20180512 > 1 NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) > 1 Mutt/1.6.0 (2016-04-01) > 1 Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) > 1 Mutt/1.14.0 (2020-05-02) > 1 Mutt 1.11.1 (2018-12-01) (UNIX) (Linux 4.19.8-2-MANJARO (unknown)) > 1 Mutt 1.11.0 (2018-11-25) (UNIX) (Linux 4.19.6-1-MANJARO (unknown)) > 1 mutt > 1 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; > 1 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 > 1 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 > 1 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD i386; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 > 1 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD i386; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 > 1 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 > 1 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 > 1 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; > 1 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; > 1 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 > 1 MailAPI > 1 KMail/4.14.10 (FreeBSD/11.2-RELEASE-p3; KDE/4.14.38; amd64; ; ) > 1 KMail/4.14.10 (FreeBSD/10.3-RELEASE-p24; KDE/4.14.30; amd64; ; ) > 1 KMail/4.14.10 (FreeBSD/10.3-RELEASE-p20; KDE/4.14.30; amd64; ; ) > 1 Horde Application Framework 5 > 1 Evolution 3.36.1 > 1 Evolution 3.32.4 > 1 Evolution 3.30.3-1 > 1 Evolution 3.30.3 > 1 Evolution 3.30.2 > 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-529-g3ee424a-fm-20200611.001-g3ee424a1 > 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-781-gfc16016-fmstable-20200127v1 > 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-578-g826f590-fmstable-20191119v1 > 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-470-gedfae93-fmstable-20191021v4 > 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-360-g7dda896-fmstable-20191004v2 > 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-237-gf35468d-fmstable-20190912v1 > 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-663-gf46ad30-fmstable-20190607v1 > 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.5-925-g644bf8c-fmstable-20190228v5 > 1 Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.5-832-gba113d7-fmstable-20190201v1 > 1 AquaMail/1.22.0-1511 (build: 102200004) > 1 Android > 1 Alpine 2.22 (DEB 395 2020-01-19) > 1 Alpine 2.21.9999 (OSX 337 2019-05-05) > 1 1blu Webmail > > .//. Arne > > -- > Arne Steinkamm | Home: Mail: arnesteinkammcom > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 12:58:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A848834AEF3 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:58:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from bede.qeng-ho.org (bede.qeng-ho.org [217.155.128.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pJkw5R3rz43S7 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:58:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from arthur.home.qeng-ho.org (arthur.home.qeng-ho.org [172.23.1.2]) by bede.qeng-ho.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F0410640; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 13:58:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: MUAs we use To: Wesley Peng Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> From: Arthur Chance Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 13:58:13 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pJkw5R3rz43S7 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@qeng-ho.org designates 217.155.128.241 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@qeng-ho.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.43 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.964]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.155.128.240/29]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.990]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[qeng-ho.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.18)[-0.180]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13037, ipnet:217.155.0.0/16, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:58:17 -0000 On 19/06/2020 13:39, Wesley Peng wrote: > Hi > > Why the list doesn’t have gmail and thunderbird included? Just because I > have been using both. All the lines starting with Mozilla/5.0 are probably Thunderbird. I use it and the headers of sent mail include User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 so a simple grep misses the second line with Thunderbird on it. -- Fat Earther: One who believes the world is round but has put on too much weight round the middle. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 13:43:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B06134BEC2 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 13:43:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pKkh5rhTz46Dq for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 13:43:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id y5so11170853iob.12 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 06:43:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=/L9btU/d6BNMvuxoyZtzsdnFiUbZNhAw402HKRIaHZ8=; b=jRKi8/AiUHB35BMfHwRdftDzpFTlA3ABHqNaR/V20m4iVV9scOyUVfIUG/drvSJ1pk jTuCgAtFnlAwhNMbF2bz5AYfSCPWdJ6MR7LfGTVIfncymnlwZtjyRpfyJ7ZoOB2qKXHu WaLDmGdK9aAsK7T4T0NzDqsjO0z0vNF5SZ39ebq5E6fZuYNv6D6pXXiGaQW/lMPaikRg EGvLfylxrNE5M/GMVpnV6ROIqDZOI9KgUB9gwnbbZTSbaBy8G+1d8NiUGIvARpfEjYvz lBIwvn0KKyVcyMjxudyLmSOwWEQsOCgpy1a3Wy5VAnANIY05NPZXh8pJ4WblSkoApEYO 6OvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=/L9btU/d6BNMvuxoyZtzsdnFiUbZNhAw402HKRIaHZ8=; b=M0WwteXorQqTtXfsyXtDmjkSsqRtJdus8/GszcZyhtYXHjnvUyO8e3ppoeyDaYjbji /bMvJzw9SV2CvWYbt2+dzxx3fsvvt8jBT2ZFYa+s0LC+lLKlKgPgMpk6s98qwRZsGEHA HoxCGZIEbTWZFbAMFCWuIzvTBipt5oiv2bIPOUrvvp0cpBQcimHnwYPpb4xzhp4XBdIe wHHlfPvn6rrb7FA6ChM3X6YBAjDaNS4PHVvY44Qg0HuusSNgbvSkDWiG5QFhbTFfCWsw E9INUKdMH1udf+7/ICWw2pDzgloypYbUoVrqv6AoI4vSKKsb059SZKO/Z7e3MTduxpBo r6IQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533yXfrOlzgTTp2Okc9zPhMpZOaK0zZBxq6izqhAP3UaqfFyO1RK rTHjoZ7xK9LlYyePa53N/9ZDdMoy+F+J5Yg2q1s0ykH9ETI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzfbynpAge+Tbn+iFFf3YFR8+eu9lGe6OOtesqSC0+rM4y9T+z/qWU6Z2KxVlRDk6qNwa/aioqA3Zby5N7p+sM= X-Received: by 2002:a02:b704:: with SMTP id g4mr3853050jam.138.1592574187088; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 06:43:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> <941386f3-ce71-6cf6-005c-ab9c159ce998@heuristicsystems.com.au> <20200618184438.00003f41@seibercom.net> <20200619072002.4179e527@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200619072002.4179e527@scorpio.seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:42:55 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pKkh5rhTz46Dq X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 13:43:09 -0000 On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:20 AM Jerry wrote: > On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 18:55:24 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: > >On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 6:45 PM Jerry wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:19:12 +1000, Dewayne Geraghty commented: > >> >Jerry, > >> > > >> >Aryeh's suggestion of determining the cause of the problem would be > >> >beneficial as the PR > >> >https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=237666 > >> >appears to be caught in a non-reproducability trap. Eg "I have an X > >> >on version Y and no bug" will not allay anyone's concerns. > >> > > >> >Also reply 103 asserts that this problem doesn't exist on 11 (ie > >> >prior to 11.4). Perhaps pulling the iso's for 11.4 and using on a > >> >machine that reproduces the bug with 12.1 might be a more efficient > >> >path? > >> > >> It doesn't exist on 11.x at ll. If you read through the comments, > >> etcetera, it was mentioned that it is most likely a regression > >> problem. Regression bugs have a nasty habit of spreading. > >> > > > >Especially if people refuse to actual test it to see if it is a bug or > >not on their system. Since it is not on mine my test is meaningless > >but your might not be and might help debug it so if you care about > >helping the community like you do you should try it and make a > >complete bug report as possible. But as I said it happens in enough > >odd different places that it is 90% likely user error not an actual > >bug and you just falling for FUD if you are not willing to help figure > >it out. > > I can confirm that the bug exists on at least a Dell XPS 8930 with 32 > GB RAM and Intel i3 Processor. The machine was purchased as a low-end > replacement for a PC that was dying. Its sole purpose was to run a > lightly used web-server and mail-server. > If you call that low end then I hate to see what you call high end. To most people low end means walking into the store and pointing to the nearest machine in the $300-$500 range and saying "give me that one" . None of those machines would have anywhere near those specs. Note a perfectly serviceable web/mail server can do in 4 to 8 GB for example. > I can confirm that it works with every version of 11.x and no versions > of 12.x. I have never tested it on 10.x or 13.x however. > If you never tried 13.X (aka -current) then you have no way to know if it is fixed or not (for all you know the problem could have been MFC'ed already). > I have went to the lengths of using the manufacturers disk to erase and > format the HD and resetting the BIOS to defaults. I never messed with > the defaults anyway. > Some features of FreeBSD require you to mess with the defaults like if you want to do VM's you need to often turn on virtualization which is usually off by default. So saying you never mess with defaults just reconfirms that you are unwilling to try every possible source user error before saying it is the OS's fault. (See below for other cases of you doing the same thing) > The error starts as soon as the CD attempts to boot-up FreeBSD 12.x. > Assuming, incorrectly, that the disk was bad I did a fresh download and > burned a new CD. The sane problem existed. > Are you sure the CD reader can handle the size of the 12.X CD and are you sure your burn software can do the same? This is not a pointless question since there are documented issues with the size of the CD image vs. the capabilities of some hardware and/or FreeBSD ( https://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=162309+0+current/freebsd-questions ) Did you try a different install medium like a USB memory stick or DVD (vs. CD)? Did you try to boot the CD image on a different machine to see if somehow your downloads were corrupt? This is not a user error. More than one person on more than one > platform is experiencing this bug. I contacted Dell technical support. > They confirmed that the bug exists, there is even a reference to it on > their community bulletin board. They went on to say that their product > was tested against Windows 10 and passed,(obviously) and against Linux > and worked as intended. They stated that they DO NOT test against or > guarantee their products will work with FreeBSD. They were also aware > that a bug report had been filed against it in the FreeBSD Bugzilla. I > really wish I had been made aware of it too. I made the suggestion that > they list OSs that their equipment will not work with. They nicely > stated that an operation of that extent would be beyond the scope of > their technical department since their are potentially hundreds of > thousands of individual configurations. I suggested that they test > against a base OS installation, but they declined saying they do not > test against FreeBSD. They would welcome me doing it though. Since they > declined to supply me with their equipment free of charge to undertake > this endeavor, I declined. > > The saying, "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the > problem", is certainly apropos to you in this incident. > FreeBSD is a "some assembly" required OS and you are refusing to even try the assembly because of either not understanding the directions or not being willing to actually test a part to see if it is defective instead of just calling it defective and returning the whole piece of furniture (or whatever you attempting to assemble). At best not doing this should disqualify you from complaining about the issue since you have no direct proof it is not user error. At worst it is being a spoiled rich kid (FreeBSD was not designed for you, it was designed for people who are willing to experiment with different things before assuming it is not a user error). The "rest of us" would not have the option of just returning the machine (due it being built out of spare parts and/or otherwise recycled/built in such a way that it was effectively bought "as is"). This means we have learned to tinker with what might look like a defective part and first but instead is just something we didn't understand the instruction on to make it work. Bottom line so even worse than being a part of the problem you are becoming the problem. If you want a good example of how to do stuff right instead of being a part of the problem see https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=247363 (especially the last comment) -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 14:16:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34BE234CF52 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:16:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pLT40bmkz48kZ for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:16:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:c4ea:bd49:619b:6cb3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: matthew/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E6492134A3 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:16:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from PD0786.local (unknown [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:140:3dfe:1352:3c95]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 391942F25 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:16:21 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/391942F25; dkim=none; dkim-atps=neutral Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> From: matthew@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:16:20 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:16:24 -0000 On 17/06/2020 18:41, Jerry wrote: > Now, since I am primarily using poudriere, all I need to do is update > the poudriere jail and then update all the applications on the system. Not necessarily. In general packages compiled in an 11.3-RELEASE jail will work fine on an 11.4-RELEASE machine. The important exception is Kernel Loadable Modules, which need to be compiled on the same system version as where they will be run. So: if you don't need to build any Kernel modules, then you don't need to update your poudriere jail. Since updating the poudriere jail will force poudriere to rebuild _all_ of the packages from that jail (which could take quite some time) not upgrading or delaying upgrading can be quite a useful move. Cheers, Matthew From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 14:26:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FC434D63A for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:26:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pLh775nyz4BBy for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:25:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:c4ea:bd49:619b:6cb3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: matthew/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CBAD813127 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:25:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from PD0786.local (unknown [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:140:3dfe:1352:3c95]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CB7EA2F2E for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:25:58 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/CB7EA2F2E; dkim=none; dkim-atps=neutral Subject: Re: Possible to compile tree on a different OS? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <483b-5ee86500-35-519df400@194132122> From: matthew@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:25:58 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <483b-5ee86500-35-519df400@194132122> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:26:00 -0000 On 16/06/2020 07:20, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: > I want to download the latest FreeBSD source tree on my machine > running native Ubuntu only and compile that source tree. Unfortunately this is not possible at the moment. There was some talk about work that might be done in this area at BSDCam last year, but I haven't heard of any results being generally available. The nearest you could get is to set up a virtual machine on your Ubuntu box and compile within that. Cheers, Matthew From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 14:33:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30A1F34DEC0 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:33:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x844.google.com (mail-qt1-x844.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::844]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pLsB0nqWz4CJv for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:33:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x844.google.com with SMTP id h23so184912qtr.0 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:33:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ku170LgPrW++v2AUfMF1PpY1q+wtXs+ptDjVe/XriEc=; b=VeCuwzr/9kbuLiWMfbcM1aKAVcZTd3WNkLsgYOWalZn3rtR81KbAWiBw25r8YFb1h4 Y23351zWMPftaZlGI6Pzz9QQ5vur6WnZsksyRPNQbxl7CDgTlixU0JDTu4cZ0dwOAVPy iCjrM1No3kI17UhlwCAY+U9y8hBASc7RFnTB8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ku170LgPrW++v2AUfMF1PpY1q+wtXs+ptDjVe/XriEc=; b=Bx0wsENqbrBKMmlfUhEr795xoZoPzWgl43Tkp1U0VfqdpAopSNykf+kltz/+9eoiWS mVn7DfzjMPvffsAqsyEgV6YxZmMSCtj2WQOlo8dIm7L5jEzqLz5HrBjjGkn5Q20WNVao BXRwDB9A6wdrli65dfTZ3uotSSw0KtNk+32noOG/gnz/DXL9iR5hOqtzDv4Ia5aZRPkk 4yEjF4ySsG8h9SSM+hTnPx6WMKxHMw7NwNERSy+Snz1vAK6Bj1+jYWrSveecH2qs1GYv Ts+039k0TZoQ33NqH/fPoOYxr5zQCNixvEUT7ph+XCLd45AJ5T9XMlElQl0MOrn/Stak ccoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531LTUULBZnj65pTMxOIwqrjDJWeI2LkzLcw8lwqwW6i4hKQghLV H0afjMtSFonFAv2k2jtmkeP/B+2OzMo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxhrOo5bw0Uq2Ysbb59OFkveDfiJCnWHKYyPKEa1atzWea9lUKPPN3DIvvePr/GMpwNoso0tw== X-Received: by 2002:aed:2ca5:: with SMTP id g34mr3745141qtd.13.1592577228747; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t65sm6485818qke.83.2020.06.19.07.33.47 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pLs662fpz1VKd for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:33:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.3 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:33:45 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 Message-ID: <20200619103345.7b6160e8@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pLsB0nqWz4CJv X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=VeCuwzr/; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::844 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.29 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.28)[-0.276]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.987]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.95)[-0.947]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::844:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:33:51 -0000 On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:16:20 +0100, matthew@FreeBSD.org stated: >On 17/06/2020 18:41, Jerry wrote: >> Now, since I am primarily using poudriere, all I need to do is update >> the poudriere jail and then update all the applications on the >> system. > >Not necessarily. In general packages compiled in an 11.3-RELEASE jail >will work fine on an 11.4-RELEASE machine. The important exception is >Kernel Loadable Modules, which need to be compiled on the same system >version as where they will be run. > >So: if you don't need to build any Kernel modules, then you don't need >to update your poudriere jail. Since updating the poudriere jail will >force poudriere to rebuild _all_ of the packages from that jail (which >could take quite some time) not upgrading or delaying upgrading can be >quite a useful move. > > Cheers, > > Matthew Thanks Matthew. I had to read the documentation on poudriere to force it to update to a new version. It is not something I would remember off the top of my head. I created a simple shell script that handles the usual day-to-day operations like updating the [port tree, building packages and installing them, etc. In any case, I rebuilt the system overnight. I have four cores running, so it really doesn't take that much time. With the exception of "web-gui" or something like that which takes 5+ hours, the rest is quick. I have ccache installed and that takes a lot of time off the build. It might be useful if there was a notation in the "4.6 Building Packages With Poudriere" section about the possibility that the "/usr/local/etc/pkg/repos/*.conf" file might need to be modified after updating to a new jail version. In any case, I will remember your suggestion the next time I update. Just my 2¢. -- Jerry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 14:48:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1834034E891 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:48:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x741.google.com (mail-qk1-x741.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::741]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pMBP47Z1z4Dfr for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:48:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x741.google.com with SMTP id b4so9111028qkn.11 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:48:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=jaSrCtMlzBYO8xE+YbNqyB105pAJDz4bHEW8YrmBuFg=; b=qRSpUtbQU/DKGsNQjpQlVsgifSQWGl67IX+S9nXPCZqeEaHKBzbuniy/on6TDSuSJs lAQFI5/0oT64yY/PMfLj0GBMUr5sckxiufWHmMvHFhngfRJqtTMpXBI6Gy38dHSBixKk /MSCMePyjmIG9GYoQXOO/ZEMk4LlFF5h7Mt5I= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=jaSrCtMlzBYO8xE+YbNqyB105pAJDz4bHEW8YrmBuFg=; b=m6XFDTeJQWL+SS2wQYgRK5E68oCfv/UkOZ5PZpCrzdqhE0tL9n62CSQ8EuTY/2ns6F lTb6BTjhyk+i82lA2DI9iQRjYMLd23q2RZN8yF2gCMsTmpInPGoMWH2+uuD8Rm5+9glU 8Q+xxuzSiGNJj5KvENkDRGnwTEgaXwEL2MXqoXSVWrx/iP82FC3n8VjRBjLWIZVfL/7N 2q70m84lVT0Kr/ZxniMBtC/cBeAFkAQlLw0GMau2cGzSWRqiVzVN4c6eW14X3wMifJOX g3Vu3YousMAn1sbYOF+d7GcoIpNU/Xon2LgEQXWZNpal7eMAGSFca6Y9vaPEojPYN6LP b05w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530NpxH1Ya9ZjCNZleDUu9gpxLLW+HPZJyTMv05/PuMp2EMtQG9I CNaYgq7AdJc3MuIhE9bF9GC6vGvw1/k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyoapvh6sfS83iZAbRDQ/61XleefhxA2uzys0YGJN4ihods2vfFPA/nkrenlEnoqsX/Dn9pmw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1407:: with SMTP id d7mr3593343qkj.89.1592578124287; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b26sm7614144qta.84.2020.06.19.07.48.42 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pMBK4NBDz1VLG for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:48:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.3 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 10:48:34 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 Message-ID: <20200619104834.59a1b113@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> <941386f3-ce71-6cf6-005c-ab9c159ce998@heuristicsystems.com.au> <20200618184438.00003f41@seibercom.net> <20200619072002.4179e527@scorpio.seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/gmw/lD1UC5zJY40qfSMtxlJ"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pMBP47Z1z4Dfr X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=qRSpUtbQ; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::741 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.18 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.28)[-0.284]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.982]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.95)[-0.950]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::741:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:48:46 -0000 --Sig_/gmw/lD1UC5zJY40qfSMtxlJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:42:55 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: >On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:20 AM Jerry wrote: > >> On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 18:55:24 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: =20 >> >On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 6:45 PM Jerry wrote: >> > =20 >> >> On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:19:12 +1000, Dewayne Geraghty commented: =20 >> >> >Jerry, >> >> > >> >> >Aryeh's suggestion of determining the cause of the problem would >> >> >be beneficial as the PR >> >> >https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D237666 >> >> >appears to be caught in a non-reproducability trap. Eg "I have >> >> >an X on version Y and no bug" will not allay anyone's concerns. >> >> > >> >> >Also reply 103 asserts that this problem doesn't exist on 11 (ie >> >> >prior to 11.4). Perhaps pulling the iso's for 11.4 and using on a >> >> >machine that reproduces the bug with 12.1 might be a more >> >> >efficient path? =20 >> >> >> >> It doesn't exist on 11.x at ll. If you read through the comments, >> >> etcetera, it was mentioned that it is most likely a regression >> >> problem. Regression bugs have a nasty habit of spreading. >> >> =20 >> > >> >Especially if people refuse to actual test it to see if it is a bug >> >or not on their system. Since it is not on mine my test is >> >meaningless but your might not be and might help debug it so if you >> >care about helping the community like you do you should try it and >> >make a complete bug report as possible. But as I said it happens >> >in enough odd different places that it is 90% likely user error not >> >an actual bug and you just falling for FUD if you are not willing >> >to help figure it out. =20 >> >> I can confirm that the bug exists on at least a Dell XPS 8930 with 32 >> GB RAM and Intel i3 Processor. The machine was purchased as a low-end >> replacement for a PC that was dying. Its sole purpose was to run a >> lightly used web-server and mail-server. >> =20 > >If you call that low end then I hate to see what you call high end. >To most people low end means walking into the store and pointing to the >nearest machine in the $300-$500 range and saying "give me that one" . >None of those machines would have anywhere near those specs. Note a >perfectly serviceable web/mail server can do in 4 to 8 GB for example. > > >> I can confirm that it works with every version of 11.x and no >> versions of 12.x. I have never tested it on 10.x or 13.x however. >> =20 > >If you never tried 13.X (aka -current) then you have no way to know if >it is fixed or not (for all you know the problem could have been MFC'ed >already). A) I am not using 13.x or 5.x or any other X.x. I am using 11.4 which works and no version of 12.x does. I am dealing with facts, not speculations. >> I have went to the lengths of using the manufacturers disk to erase >> and format the HD and resetting the BIOS to defaults. I never messed >> with the defaults anyway. >> =20 > >Some features of FreeBSD require you to mess with the defaults like if >you want to do VM's you need to often turn on virtualization which is >usually off by default. So saying you never mess with defaults just >reconfirms that you are unwilling to try every possible source user >error before saying it is the OS's fault. (See below for other cases >of you doing the same thing) If I was running a VM, that would be a different scenerio. >> The error starts as soon as the CD attempts to boot-up FreeBSD 12.x. >> Assuming, incorrectly, that the disk was bad I did a fresh download >> and burned a new CD. The sane problem existed. >> =20 > >Are you sure the CD reader can handle the size of the 12.X CD and are >you sure your burn software can do the same? This is not a pointless >question since there are documented issues with the size of the CD >image vs. the capabilities of some hardware and/or FreeBSD ( >https://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=3D162309+0+current/freebsd-q= uestions >) I am well aware of thst thread. And no, the problem only exists on that machine. I did try the disk on the machine I replaced and guess what ... it worked fine. Your hypothesis is rubbish. >Did you try a different install medium like a USB memory stick or DVD >(vs. CD)? Actually, yes I did. I used a DVD on my last attempt last month to install 12.1 >Did you try to boot the CD image on a different machine to see if >somehow your downloads were corrupt? Already answered above. >This is not a user error. More than one person on more than one >> platform is experiencing this bug. I contacted Dell technical >> support. They confirmed that the bug exists, there is even a >> reference to it on their community bulletin board. They went on to >> say that their product was tested against Windows 10 and >> passed,(obviously) and against Linux and worked as intended. They >> stated that they DO NOT test against or guarantee their products >> will work with FreeBSD. They were also aware that a bug report had >> been filed against it in the FreeBSD Bugzilla. I really wish I had >> been made aware of it too. I made the suggestion that they list OSs >> that their equipment will not work with. They nicely stated that an >> operation of that extent would be beyond the scope of their >> technical department since their are potentially hundreds of >> thousands of individual configurations. I suggested that they test >> against a base OS installation, but they declined saying they do not >> test against FreeBSD. They would welcome me doing it though. Since >> they declined to supply me with their equipment free of charge to >> undertake this endeavor, I declined. >> >> The saying, "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the >> problem", is certainly apropos to you in this incident. >> =20 > >FreeBSD is a "some assembly" required OS and you are refusing to even >try the assembly because of either not understanding the directions or >not being willing to actually test a part to see if it is defective >instead of just calling it defective and returning the whole piece of >furniture (or whatever you attempting to assemble). At best not >doing this should disqualify you from complaining about the issue >since you have no direct proof it is not user error. At worst it is >being a spoiled rich kid (FreeBSD was not designed for you, it was >designed for people who are willing to experiment with different >things before assuming it is not a user error). The "rest of us" >would not have the option of just returning the machine (due it being >built out of spare parts and/or otherwise recycled/built in such a way >that it was effectively bought "as is"). This means we have learned >to tinker with what might look like a defective part and first but >instead is just something we didn't understand the instruction on to >make it work. > >Bottom line so even worse than being a part of the problem you are >becoming the problem. If you want a good example of how to do stuff >right instead of being a part of the problem see >https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D247363 (especially >the last comment) The only logical conclusion here is that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Don't waste my time. It has been confirmed as a bug by several individuals. The people working on correcting it have confired it is a bug. The problem is it is an 'edge' case and not easy to isolate. Why don't you go tell them they they don't know what they are talking about. Tell anyone you want; just don't waste my time. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/gmw/lD1UC5zJY40qfSMtxlJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7s0EIACgkQOHMGOIfe xWTD/gf8DtgwDrn8sti0N9KulIl+NPMxybE1k/GOxJyPdqGmJGaUC/jhbVXtsOFQ sOJX64hrSCOZPo7zXdlCEAo4qIFrpi9Dh1eUhkxxskKSSR8DQKXozcxnsg5e4CGD LJhGuQP7tkl8u3zIjXSvkEvCh/DdZmm574E34D6NtxEw1q+YkcDBnwDqLinJL/9h J9vYAUMVbvKTSixZ3MV5e1Sa9D9uWFXKkUahRXe39y6gdpRbCiGVzUAoZNbUwLst zeSVSMcNUsQrPdcXwILx8gpK00ao/TT6Rlg/6ABB1S2UmwRI6nMtFv46d4MmxrSc bfi4+RDdH8cHk20nG2MLcHYxBQe7sw== =wLOn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/gmw/lD1UC5zJY40qfSMtxlJ-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 15:04:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A341E34F1D5 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:04:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mailinglist@diamondbox.dk) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49pMXp13bQz4G4h for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:04:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mailinglist@diamondbox.dk) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 2246034F1D3; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:04:42 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F2934EEE4 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:04:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mailinglist@diamondbox.dk) Received: from mailrelay1-2.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com (mailrelay1-2.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com [46.30.212.0]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pMXn1CN1z4GFd for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:04:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mailinglist@diamondbox.dk) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=diamondbox.dk; s=20191106; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:message-id:subject:to: from:date:from; bh=mK+U+iPEPrkYcJy3xcq9NI0XRdeuRoFIEalXnmvGbYs=; b=dD25Ppypj/uE6GvFl9oKC7K8fxurfsck9XTRamLWTtp/B+I+LVMezCMNGoXwqZM8W4IqRWfnP4lMQ 09tuQ6NHDRgWsi4KiItoppx4LoxEYTV/9OLvuIc4xlN1mf/GHW4krKqL6+kMs0sP+QYoxHDa1gZcbn 3tnIMM18qbPtA4I+GwGo426teCTsPV/XewNJ2UYka+tC+Oo6NvU+O1+Tgi3HFU9oUdcX10KkIymDAS HLaIlos/6P6wx+dDjWb3aqx5c4pe61KSrzKZGhLyzwHOD4aUISYEm0ans6UYKnEbY8AtGcsY1shedD y9YOQXlghVZ1nSCXHBzKXfbL6w/jpqQ== X-HalOne-Cookie: 07f7d2846a38ddad668dd9f48b35b6c34d12d682 X-HalOne-ID: 31084fae-b23e-11ea-b2e8-d0431ea8a283 Received: from diamond.diamondbox.dk (c-xd520f268.cust.hiper.dk [213.32.242.104]) by mailrelay1.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com (Halon) with ESMTPA id 31084fae-b23e-11ea-b2e8-d0431ea8a283; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:04:37 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 17:04:35 +0200 From: Nikolaj Thygesen To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: My first port Message-ID: <20200619170435.7144aa76@diamond.diamondbox.dk> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pMXn1CN1z4GFd X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=diamondbox.dk header.s=20191106 header.b=dD25Ppyp; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mailinglist@diamondbox.dk has no SPF policy when checking 46.30.212.0) smtp.mailfrom=mailinglist@diamondbox.dk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.80 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[diamondbox.dk:s=20191106]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.50)[-0.497]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.84)[-0.843]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[diamondbox.dk]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[diamondbox.dk:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.16)[-0.165]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[46.30.212.0:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:51468, ipnet:46.30.208.0/21, country:DK]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[46.30.212.0:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:04:42 -0000 Hi list, I'm trying to create my first port and things are taking shape, but I'm down to one little detail making me feel a bit dirty. The port is based on the latest release of swi-prolog, which has switched to cmake/ninja. My final issue is that the pkg-conf-.pc file ends up in PREFIX/share/pkgconfig instead of PREFIX/libdata/pkgconfig, but I can't find the right way to maneuver it into the right directory. My current hack-ish solution has been to add to pkg-plist a line like: @sample share/pkgconfig/swipl.pc libdata/pkgconfig/swipl.pc ... which actually works, but it feels wrong. Is there a better more standard way to do this? br - Nikolaj From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 15:09:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D2E34F3A3 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:09:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12a.google.com (mail-il1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pMf64Xnnz4Gsc for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:09:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id t8so9517183ilm.7 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:09:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ssH5129LjFknRnpzyCLrdTzGW2etyg2AYGMVq7bSjoo=; b=J/6rcRYLnn3hvxvixwd9Sz9f2LjyMOC2eTXARnU2N/xnF9Ohl0y5jTAerNgfJ/P14+ XeuidwGRHAXWm09t97dW/a7kpk1zw0rIJFp0kr2WYaL4A25JZH7NLDksAQ6tAaq+fMl+ iAXuIfmpcSULSWrrq5p4FvDAGslB0e9ZLP7SubOexoNEHzhgp8nNDCJW+7v0C4O9a3AB SvnG46jLet/p4aWEsBe3LIpu47W5r/89hobyduUcC6B2On1m6V2Iw/i6ycEa901l2+Sx Tmm41RUiq1ljo6pa2kMtmoWdEJAmjvdnfw+/7qWCem0jzNrOE/o+kwYztXwkhz7bJL4j zlpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ssH5129LjFknRnpzyCLrdTzGW2etyg2AYGMVq7bSjoo=; b=jEGuWPq023Jb1guZpqlJBjD+mmmsTNqWRazCXggpJbwD7gMlbMjCVJlGN+CJDxmIOq KL3ysEie/BvC1DtCFfIa0djaKF28pleMcpPRLfbYsgQbxkoLYKUXJY3j9vquK1Cps993 5aOQkDcwvbph6GeK0OscmVoWGneQz4KLrWI5USWCKIpaR8TwD/hKkfloh9IuwT1ZJMH8 s/cFX6W63IGz1kZPqqokOJHo1U9F8FG7HxjUo3aM9oGf2c5VR7ZIpV2uhvPliirNZCeh 6sjqU84NHDm6PyjvcJZGc2m9602h7oOQwCvWW1AqaD5mNwOxHIziapitnM6a65zQT0J/ mttA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530oPn0YbTq4OQTeV724jezWkgDVSBgs4HVPxUWxkFrQMlJUE4oj BR2hIbqrgis6mBboImJve2X9yHgBbUVjoL7VGaIbIHEh X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyrD/HP9xPqffFB7Ljnq6yGRr1hMNqKKMxn1jjDuf0bSoNEF28SIGa53F7r6P0Dlum5HMxyF5gSvbPoCIzyGgI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:6c9:: with SMTP id p9mr3766011ils.185.1592579357195; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:09:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> <941386f3-ce71-6cf6-005c-ab9c159ce998@heuristicsystems.com.au> <20200618184438.00003f41@seibercom.net> <20200619072002.4179e527@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200619104834.59a1b113@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200619104834.59a1b113@scorpio.seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 11:09:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pMf64Xnnz4Gsc X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:09:19 -0000 On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 10:48 AM Jerry wrote: > On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:42:55 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: > >On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:20 AM Jerry wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 18:55:24 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: > >> >On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 6:45 PM Jerry wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:19:12 +1000, Dewayne Geraghty commented: > >> >> >Jerry, > >> >> > > >> >> >Aryeh's suggestion of determining the cause of the problem would > >> >> >be beneficial as the PR > >> >> >https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=237666 > >> >> >appears to be caught in a non-reproducability trap. Eg "I have > >> >> >an X on version Y and no bug" will not allay anyone's concerns. > >> >> > > >> >> >Also reply 103 asserts that this problem doesn't exist on 11 (ie > >> >> >prior to 11.4). Perhaps pulling the iso's for 11.4 and using on a > >> >> >machine that reproduces the bug with 12.1 might be a more > >> >> >efficient path? > >> >> > >> >> It doesn't exist on 11.x at ll. If you read through the comments, > >> >> etcetera, it was mentioned that it is most likely a regression > >> >> problem. Regression bugs have a nasty habit of spreading. > >> >> > >> > > >> >Especially if people refuse to actual test it to see if it is a bug > >> >or not on their system. Since it is not on mine my test is > >> >meaningless but your might not be and might help debug it so if you > >> >care about helping the community like you do you should try it and > >> >make a complete bug report as possible. But as I said it happens > >> >in enough odd different places that it is 90% likely user error not > >> >an actual bug and you just falling for FUD if you are not willing > >> >to help figure it out. > >> > >> I can confirm that the bug exists on at least a Dell XPS 8930 with 32 > >> GB RAM and Intel i3 Processor. The machine was purchased as a low-end > >> replacement for a PC that was dying. Its sole purpose was to run a > >> lightly used web-server and mail-server. > >> > > > >If you call that low end then I hate to see what you call high end. > >To most people low end means walking into the store and pointing to the > >nearest machine in the $300-$500 range and saying "give me that one" . > >None of those machines would have anywhere near those specs. Note a > >perfectly serviceable web/mail server can do in 4 to 8 GB for example. > > > > > >> I can confirm that it works with every version of 11.x and no > >> versions of 12.x. I have never tested it on 10.x or 13.x however. > >> > > > >If you never tried 13.X (aka -current) then you have no way to know if > >it is fixed or not (for all you know the problem could have been MFC'ed > >already). > > A) I am not using 13.x or 5.x or any other X.x. I am using 11.4 which > works and no version of 12.x does. I am dealing with facts, not > speculations. > If your dealing with facts then you have no idea until you actual try what you suggested (in place upgrade instead of from a CD/DVD) will actually work or not (different scenerio then the one you tried last time). > > >> I have went to the lengths of using the manufacturers disk to erase > >> and format the HD and resetting the BIOS to defaults. I never messed > >> with the defaults anyway. > >> > > > >Some features of FreeBSD require you to mess with the defaults like if > >you want to do VM's you need to often turn on virtualization which is > >usually off by default. So saying you never mess with defaults just > >reconfirms that you are unwilling to try every possible source user > >error before saying it is the OS's fault. (See below for other cases > >of you doing the same thing) > > If I was running a VM, that would be a different scenerio. > You said you "never" change defaults so either you lied or you would never run a VM. Either way the VM case disproves your original comment about defaults never needing to be changed. > > >> The error starts as soon as the CD attempts to boot-up FreeBSD 12.x. > >> Assuming, incorrectly, that the disk was bad I did a fresh download > >> and burned a new CD. The sane problem existed. > >> > > > >Are you sure the CD reader can handle the size of the 12.X CD and are > >you sure your burn software can do the same? This is not a pointless > >question since there are documented issues with the size of the CD > >image vs. the capabilities of some hardware and/or FreeBSD ( > > > https://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=162309+0+current/freebsd-questions > >) > > I am well aware of thst thread. And no, the problem only exists on that > machine. I did try the disk on the machine I replaced and guess what > ... it worked fine. Your hypothesis is rubbish. > (See below) Why do you even care if the CD/DVD is readable if you're doing an inplace upgrade? > > >Did you try a different install medium like a USB memory stick or DVD > >(vs. CD)? > > Actually, yes I did. I used a DVD on my last attempt last month to > install 12.1 > You said CD so unless you are willing to be precise in what you actually tried why would anyone even trust that you had actually tried every possible solution? For example you have not tried the very solution you suggested in the original post which was an in-place upgrade which doesn't even need a CD/DVD (or other install media) to work! > > >Did you try to boot the CD image on a different machine to see if > >somehow your downloads were corrupt? > > Already answered above. > > >This is not a user error. More than one person on more than one > >> platform is experiencing this bug. I contacted Dell technical > >> support. They confirmed that the bug exists, there is even a > >> reference to it on their community bulletin board. They went on to > >> say that their product was tested against Windows 10 and > >> passed,(obviously) and against Linux and worked as intended. They > >> stated that they DO NOT test against or guarantee their products > >> will work with FreeBSD. They were also aware that a bug report had > >> been filed against it in the FreeBSD Bugzilla. I really wish I had > >> been made aware of it too. I made the suggestion that they list OSs > >> that their equipment will not work with. They nicely stated that an > >> operation of that extent would be beyond the scope of their > >> technical department since their are potentially hundreds of > >> thousands of individual configurations. I suggested that they test > >> against a base OS installation, but they declined saying they do not > >> test against FreeBSD. They would welcome me doing it though. Since > >> they declined to supply me with their equipment free of charge to > >> undertake this endeavor, I declined. > >> > >> The saying, "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the > >> problem", is certainly apropos to you in this incident. > >> > > > >FreeBSD is a "some assembly" required OS and you are refusing to even > >try the assembly because of either not understanding the directions or > >not being willing to actually test a part to see if it is defective > >instead of just calling it defective and returning the whole piece of > >furniture (or whatever you attempting to assemble). At best not > >doing this should disqualify you from complaining about the issue > >since you have no direct proof it is not user error. At worst it is > >being a spoiled rich kid (FreeBSD was not designed for you, it was > >designed for people who are willing to experiment with different > >things before assuming it is not a user error). The "rest of us" > >would not have the option of just returning the machine (due it being > >built out of spare parts and/or otherwise recycled/built in such a way > >that it was effectively bought "as is"). This means we have learned > >to tinker with what might look like a defective part and first but > >instead is just something we didn't understand the instruction on to > >make it work. > > > >Bottom line so even worse than being a part of the problem you are > >becoming the problem. If you want a good example of how to do stuff > >right instead of being a part of the problem see > >https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=247363 (especially > >the last comment) > > The only logical conclusion here is that you don't have a clue what you > are talking about. Don't waste my time. It has been confirmed as a bug > by several individuals. The people working on correcting it have > confired it is a bug. The problem is it is an 'edge' case and not easy > to isolate. Why don't you go tell them they they don't know what they > are talking about. Tell anyone you want; just don't waste my time. > Yes I am singling you out for the very reason you said "newer is always better" which is clearly not true and you then attempt to insult anyone who doesn't agree with you. Well like I said in the first reply you are being a hypocrite now that you admit you refuse to upgrade because of a problem you refuse to help solve. In short by your very question you prove not only do you have no clue on what the real problem is you refuse to even find out what it is. The worst that can happen is you give them another data point to help narrow the problem. Who knows you might even be the one who stumbles on a solution (but since you are not even willing to try we will never know). > > -- > Jerry > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 15:51:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87EF333092D for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:51:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pNZY5NQTz4Kpv for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:51:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pNZW4h9tzFf3C for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:51:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592581875; bh=lR7i7GVt7+6pqglIkTR2DQ44HAJPGbCOXnrT1OAzQZ8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=GKJFKoYkgHzfyWFai2OAT/K7+Ggq8fah8vkLaEtU9q+wZPAVsWBvAMphKm7xI7UVh BYJOuevIuNkAeTD46ZqbaRcGacTXY28lWUf/AYWmUqXpQxWC+G+rI7hn/frphLe/uR 8ijwHGkJExHzoX4ccC03DBJfEmDmxTAF5bCQpsx0= X-Riseup-User-ID: DA380C8A6192D7889FCC37592E2F13745A9D045EECDE03BC62C9D4B6B5CB453C Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49pNZW0B9gz8wBk for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 17:51:14 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MUAs we use Message-ID: <20200619175114.57c095a3@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200619105314.GI89652@trajan.stk.cx> References: <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> <20200619051347.GG89652@trajan.stk.cx> <20200619085531.30489733@archlinux> <20200619094146.GH89652@trajan.stk.cx> <20200619113347.605acd4f88b08b063b8286d0@sohara.org> <20200619105314.GI89652@trajan.stk.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pNZY5NQTz4Kpv X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=GKJFKoYk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.77 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.17)[-0.171]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.003]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:51:18 -0000 On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:53:14 +0200, Arne Steinkamm wrote: >I just wanted to express how unhappy I'm with responses like that from >Ralf Mardorf... Always assume good faith, if somebody does point out pitfalls. If you don't care and are unhappy to learn from kistakes, then follow your own advice and "Just delete my" "email and be happy". For me a good reason to mention those pitfalls is to ensure that other subscribers don't miss, that your statistic is not a list of the "MUAs we use". Keep in mind that this month a subscriber did ask what MUA we do suggest. Ignoring much used MUAs doesn't fit the subject. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 15:57:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7926A330DAC for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:57:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk) Received: from smarthost01a.mail.zen.net.uk (smarthost01a.mail.zen.net.uk [212.23.1.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pNjC4dMnz4LhZ for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:57:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk) Received: from [82.71.56.121] (helo=curlew.localnet) by smarthost01a.mail.zen.net.uk with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA256:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1jmJO1-0000SW-Ls; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:57:01 +0000 From: Mike Clarke To: FreeBSD questions Subject: Exim - retry time not reached for any host Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 16:57:01 +0100 Message-ID: <2534646.NQNxk83B2J@curlew> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-smarthost01a-IP: [82.71.56.121] Feedback-ID: 82.71.56.121 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pNjC4dMnz4LhZ X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 212.23.1.1 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk) smtp.mailfrom=jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.26 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.61)[0.611]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[milibyte.co.uk]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.82)[0.824]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.93)[0.930]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.23.1.1:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13037, ipnet:212.23.0.0/19, country:GB]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; CTE_CASE(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 15:57:04 -0000 I'm running exim-sa-exim-4.94+4.2.1 on FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p5. I've been using exim for several years without much trouble apart from the occasional 'retry time not reached for any host' error. I can normally clear these by running exim_tidydb and sometimes deleting files from /var/spool/exim/db. However since yesterday I'm constantly getting these errors which I cannot clear. I've tried exim_tidydb, deleting files from /var/spool/exim/db and deleting all messages stuck in the queue but every time I try to send an outgoing email I get messages in the logfile like this: 2020-06-19 16:20:14 1jmIoQ-0008AM-5d <= REDACTED@REDACTED H=(curlew.localnet) [127.0.0.1] P=esmtp S=1539 id=1788122.tpkKSVv8f3@curlew 2020-06-19 16:20:14 1jmIoQ-0008AM-5d == REDACTED@gmail.com R=sedbergh_route T=remote_auth_smtp defer (-37) H=sedbergh.org.uk [206.189.20.173]: TLS session: (SSL_connect): error:00000000:lib(0):func(0):reason(0) Then every time the queue runner starts I get a 'retry time not reached' message 2020-06-19 16:23:01 Start queue run: pid=32029 2020-06-19 16:23:01 1jmIoQ-0008AM-5d == REDACTED@gmail.com R=sedbergh_route T=remote_auth_smtp defer (-53): retry time not reached for any host for 'gmail.com' 2020-06-19 16:23:01 End queue run: pid=32029 I've tried sending to various recipients with the same result. I can use three different remote servers, operated by different service providers, and I get the same problem with each of them. Although I have this problem with exim I can send directly to the same servers directly from kmail using the login credentials copied and pasted from my exim configuration files. So it looks very much like the problem lies somewhere in my system even though there's been no changes made recently. I'd appreciate suggestions on how I should go about tracing and fixing the cause of this problem. -- Mike Clarke From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 16:46:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6001332B0B for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 16:46:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-f196.google.com (mail-il1-f196.google.com [209.85.166.196]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pPpD5lRFz4Tw2 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 16:46:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-f196.google.com with SMTP id 9so9802402ilg.12 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:46:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9MvNLttG+KWRV+kvOhmHdovKrWZE/koAyLF5MC0KJdY=; b=lFTtYBdCLP6lP4WXZgJG3oHjY5uQVIzm8EFn/eGa0OlHELyr26ejIgdW5BxkRnccsw 4HjNdpS4t/bsPP3gaLNzD4AOnMrIcn5w29IpBYH/qWzSa9r4P+vWJTdPiOK4YMKC5SXQ Op+AzgTzUYAGhcwQ+RT1qwvRnGrrXv5GhovcUrlrKJG+wxgTubya/QtxpgXqZ3M4ejB2 7HBNdfgqgFB1MYLV8SXHu39/GX1prpM1mDr5M6lJpqIs5nvOmCR3AQUx5bP1Ltr+oiIF 3ksXZhDo5rOTHk/oJTlLUPzdtkRUFya6Js9vft8Qfwo6FgB/+VQd/hKUnel8z5k8RkEG 2yXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533UpnVscGrBTQgmvBM1Mn70s+NTaLsZMvOoaQs/Y4T4xdNmik1F NvNQCkpZOwkLTrsC3Fp5M3r3v69tXx6tF1N3yKkyWBX9 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyr22Kj0WNUe230xEQc6MvJDSjHGeezyQZy4fTrWPgT20w4bf6Ez8uN6RyXn6kdOJ/8BY52z5LfqGWPVTgDw2k= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:ee8:: with SMTP id j8mr4382380ilk.11.1592585187496; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:46:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2054-5ee85580-1d-6ecc0b80@214142625> In-Reply-To: <2054-5ee85580-1d-6ecc0b80@214142625> From: Ed Maste Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:46:15 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Possible to compile tree on a different OS? To: "mayuresh@kathe.in" Cc: FreeBSD Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pPpD5lRFz4Tw2 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.196 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17:c]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.13)[0.131]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.87)[-0.869]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.166.196:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.84)[-0.843]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.166.196:from]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 16:46:29 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 01:27, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: > > The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling (including c= ross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree under a different ope= rating system. Eg. I can download and compile the NetBSD source tree under = a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. > > Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? Unfortunately we don't have anything "out of the box" for building on non-FreeBSD hosts yet, but there is significant work in progress to make it possible. The CHERI research project at Cambridge has build infrastructure for all of the components they're using (modified research versions of QEMU, Clang/LLVM, and FreeBSD) that builds on FreeBSD 10+, Ubuntu 16.04+, OpenSUSE, and macOS. You can find more information about that work here: https://github.com/CTSRD-CHERI/cheribuild https://wiki.freebsd.org/BuildingOnNonFreeBSD From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 19:39:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D563379B9 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 19:39:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pTdS1fRCz3V2j for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 19:39:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:38:59 -0700 Subject: Re: ImageMagick6 fails make on Perl version? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200619094507.456b92e9@3bsd> From: David Christensen Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:38:59 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200619094507.456b92e9@3bsd> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pTdS1fRCz3V2j X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.97 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.30)[0.303]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.78)[0.776]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.989]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 19:39:09 -0000 On 2020-06-19 01:45, Graham Bentley wrote: > > Hi All, > > I want to batch convert .png to .xpm for a Fluxbox theme and decided to > try 'convert' which is part of the ImageMagick suite. > > I got stuck on make though here; > > ===> texinfo-6.7_3,1 depends on package: p5-Locale-libintl>=0 - not > found ===> License GPLv3+ accepted by the user > ===> p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 depends on file: /usr/local/sbin/pkg - > found ===> Fetching all distfiles required by p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 > for building ===> Extracting for p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 > => SHA256 Checksum OK for libintl-perl-1.31.tar.gz. > ===> Patching for p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 > ===> p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 depends on executable: msgfmt - found > ===> p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 depends on package: perl5>=5.30.r1<5.31 - > found ===> p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 depends on shared library: > libiconv.so - found (/usr/local/lib/libiconv.so) ===> > p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 depends on shared library: libintl.so - found > (/usr/local/lib/libintl.so) ===> Configuring for > p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 env: /usr/local/bin/perl5.30.3: No such file or > directory *** Error code 127 > > # perl -v > > This is perl 5, version 30, subversion 2 (v5.30.2) built for > amd64-freebsd-thread-multi > > Any tips? > > Thanks a mill! I upgraded all my packages recently: # pkg update # pkg upgrade Perl was upgraded to the version you cite: # perl -v | head -n 2 This is perl 5, version 30, subversion 2 (v5.30.2) built for amd64-freebsd-thread-multi David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 19:43:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C7D337BB5 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 19:43:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pTkB4xkvz3V8c for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 19:43:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:43:11 -0700 Subject: Re: ImageMagick6 fails make on Perl version? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200619094507.456b92e9@3bsd> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <4b7964c4-d6cf-c4d2-9de3-2c97147fb78a@holgerdanske.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 12:43:11 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pTkB4xkvz3V8c X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.01 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.36)[0.361]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.77)[0.769]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.983]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 19:43:15 -0000 On 2020-06-19 12:38, David Christensen wrote: > On 2020-06-19 01:45, Graham Bentley wrote: >> p5-Locale-libintl-1.31 env: /usr/local/bin/perl5.30.3: No such file or >> directory *** Error code 127 > I upgraded all my packages recently: > > # pkg update > > > # pkg upgrade > > > > Perl was upgraded to the version you cite: > > # perl -v | head -n 2 > > This is perl 5, version 30, subversion 2 (v5.30.2) built for > amd64-freebsd-thread-multi Do'h! -- wrong server. I will update it now: 2020-06-19 12:37:20 toor@f3 ~ # pkg update Updating FreeBSD repository catalogue... Fetching meta.txz: 100% 916 B 0.9kB/s 00:01 Fetching packagesite.txz: 100% 6 MiB 3.2MB/s 00:02 Processing entries: 100% FreeBSD repository update completed. 31523 packages processed. All repositories are up to date. 2020-06-19 12:40:32 toor@f3 ~ # pkg upgrade Updating FreeBSD repository catalogue... FreeBSD repository is up to date. All repositories are up to date. Checking for upgrades (2 candidates): 100% Processing candidates (2 candidates): 100% The following 2 package(s) will be affected (of 0 checked): Installed packages to be UPGRADED: perl5: 5.30.2 -> 5.30.3 python37: 3.7.7 -> 3.7.7_1 Number of packages to be upgraded: 2 30 MiB to be downloaded. Proceed with this action? [y/N]: y [1/2] Fetching python37-3.7.7_1.txz: 100% 16 MiB 3.3MB/s 00:05 [2/2] Fetching perl5-5.30.3.txz: 100% 14 MiB 2.9MB/s 00:05 Checking integrity... done (0 conflicting) [1/2] Upgrading python37 from 3.7.7 to 3.7.7_1... [1/2] Extracting python37-3.7.7_1: 100% [2/2] Upgrading perl5 from 5.30.2 to 5.30.3... [2/2] Extracting perl5-5.30.3: 100% David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 23:29:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D963033BF71 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 23:29:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) Received: from hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au (hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au [203.41.22.115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2560 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au", Issuer "Heuristic Systems Type 4 Host CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pZlX4qZhz3grf for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 23:29:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) Received: from [10.0.5.3] (noddy.hs [10.0.5.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 05JNRe8T054337 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 09:27:40 +1000 (AEST) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=heuristicsystems.com.au; s=hsa; t=1592609260; x=1593214061; bh=a2t6hgytKiDWzHU6llKHIR7tFhwV0qmWj/heko4U34E=; h=Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date; b=BdJCa7AmccLjODBLLfKb2O4DaS/BkKrjQ662SjQIMdXE7ikkPyOghF2F93H9ddojz aQN/aVP7QnmzCujKFeipaepZfFzQPSNtXuiIBz3Ss/e2JL11Lz5s4yDZWneLqaFbUc Dw/GKOeVpckNlv9EFdmbCCo+6HGqY8zlqysd8+ExjxD3OCYkdFiQt X-Authentication-Warning: b3.hs: Host noddy.hs [10.0.5.3] claimed to be [10.0.5.3] Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> <941386f3-ce71-6cf6-005c-ab9c159ce998@heuristicsystems.com.au> <20200618184438.00003f41@seibercom.net> <20200619072002.4179e527@scorpio.seibercom.net> From: Dewayne Geraghty Autocrypt: addr=dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQFNBFbOsVMBCgDfvi2PspSwoMEtFhF+aFLQKtzSA9f0dhDqthKHESdfbqxvKzhkBjvTJ5Na EgjKoKfoQTh5xuIv3HLhtDo5PeasPgQl9cPJeriqmqlS+UhY5BGYcMc1AO/TX0fsDaQz96ko at3RUW7sff/qPgVzSurk+DV5h866gPdn5Jdjohyl2F1rzRl6dnaAIyg49zlwZOnPHJGKye+B meqUCnPRglhkpNqXR3v1ulbWpfwhdNDvWT82qTG/qsFy/agjJvxwLuEBeoGc1dPWasO8Nztt 0dqf1Lpeg6SX2yJd76WVS4znt88OEbx/QL2PTJ/YtSepS68WaeKuARKPukkU+QXDep0gaLPl /TvU5xAZndNB3rYnpmoLb32pDHlrJbZUVyTMqc3J2EYM6aaizCpg4VEvVpVSqUT4D9MuREhu PeZ3SvEazQARAQABiQF3BB8BCAAhBQJWzrFTFwyAAWHe5yZt8RJL0vaU1MfDto5dBmeFAgcA AAoJEJVk7a1LmFrdy2QJ/AysDdFIMCRiaqEellprZQyEz5I/qZJEi6yRfXH813hhISFz6moh urZYLQ9SRdyMntT8W3Oc4pJc9fF9RSnY0SSQY/arZbrvsv6hKb1KtIK7P5mLS914J9buxEcJ SWeVuOuMA9aCNqg5uMu19pH5pXayORfbv+K7vFPiyllZ64ShUWZJL69vAc/TsbvMrGtG1M4P qyWCOKEiUT93zhVGQoA0aUYjMAZoyvozZCuieo4O8hkPgMz9lka+3bqQBSOB+qO4Iz+CZs0k Lw7Soga6bRqLK86DH99WjTA6Oj1r8Won+j4V9fnTDCVJoSyqdVHLySDv/lHaNu4Ia4AO4i2d shmLw03gOUvoWLJx5X01A5Zio4FvecnpZqQ0Wz5Ph9MiK3lwarfjonTOLeNGd5BpdnHu5VRC fJml7uAYeyKsD8C4tEBEZXdheW5lIEdlcmFnaHR5IDxkZXdheW5lLmdlcmFnaHR5QGNvbnNj aXVtaW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbC5jb20uYXU+iQGXBBMBCABBAhshCwsKDQkIDAcLAwIECBUKCQgL AwIBBRYDAgEAAh4BAheAFiEEC8bIxjMx+sDl4ZCClWTtrUuYWt0FAl5UUOgACgkQlWTtrUuY Wt3xZAn/W/mq5nDhLIfqxVM9GbU8rGzNsGLfnt5NCVcWlBKhgxOOw9EWkcRTMymwX9OMqwxI +te6Gvy7rG53T2xprtsQyqESZmjWcUSEPsQ9hjw4VZCL15ftBeZMYyO2T1e41UImXAlftleT 2kXCktgyAfwfCzHhFiZM8k9QMFQV1x+JukJ9xPFBgICRLsLsVNVw/R1L7KqARuws4HqXxY1J SCpO+FB4b6tWSIRKbzlb6tctdKppKbG/adVYuoK61ngvmsAzy/9OLhF8u1MNCgyFd2woOErh /zyuap8KvJZMlwAIqpjsoHyXsa0cq8A/uNQSmodwBpRsEGXCmZIZq2FJw6N+38to8C8m97q0 YWrY63VsoA6hA4A4/ywzE3EiwGvqJQBMRv2ET3TIdTyLoEIwXq2bDPU7XTZGh5UZEsKFMHH5 228= Message-ID: <657e8e9c-dc34-ec10-9c3d-6471b07c9142@heuristicsystems.com.au> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 09:27:09 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200619072002.4179e527@scorpio.seibercom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pZlX4qZhz3grf X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1221, ipnet:203.40.0.0/13, country:AU]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 23:29:45 -0000 Jerry, It might be useful if you put your question to either freebsd-stable or perhaps freebsd-current to see if anyone was experiencing your problem with similar equipment on 12 latest. Perhaps also add your experience to the PR so others can see that this is still a problem, and allocate resources accordingly. If possible state your motherboard & bios details, along with the error message(s) from your 12.1 experience (and some basics like pciconf -lv). Looking carefully at the PR, it seems that the view is that this is either a ACPI or BIOS issue of particular DELL equipment, and folks with fingers on the code can't reproduce due to lack of equipment. If fixed, why still open? Usually because it has been fixed and the person fixing the problem is awaiting feedback, sometimes someone else who is not aware of the PR notices a problem and fixes it without searching bugzilla, or rarely, didn't have time to close. Lots of reasons. :) Kind regards. PS I'd regard an i3 as low-end consumer, and an i7 or Xeon at the other ;) And yes I still have a couple of VIA C3's running. :) From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 19 23:56:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A1F33C8CA for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 23:56:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pbLk694Dz406p for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 23:56:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id t9so13256106ioj.13 for ; 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Fri, 19 Jun 2020 16:56:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> <941386f3-ce71-6cf6-005c-ab9c159ce998@heuristicsystems.com.au> <20200618184438.00003f41@seibercom.net> <20200619072002.4179e527@scorpio.seibercom.net> <657e8e9c-dc34-ec10-9c3d-6471b07c9142@heuristicsystems.com.au> In-Reply-To: <657e8e9c-dc34-ec10-9c3d-6471b07c9142@heuristicsystems.com.au> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 19:56:34 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 To: Dewayne Geraghty Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pbLk694Dz406p X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=YA2O56Q5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.96 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.007]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.05)[-1.049]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.09)[0.094]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34:from]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 23:56:48 -0000 On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:29 PM Dewayne Geraghty < dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au> wrote: > Looking carefully at the PR, it seems that the view is that this is > either a ACPI or BIOS issue of particular DELL equipment, and folks with > fingers on the code can't reproduce due to lack of equipment. > It should be noted that name brand hardware is often less "standard" then generic hardware (and/or DIY name brand components) and thus it quite likely that ***IF*** it is a problem with your machine that it due to Dell being less standard then some random motherboard/BIOS pairing. Dell and other name brand PC makers often do this to "differentiate" their machine from competitors (something you claimed is a good thing and a good aspect of capitalism -- competition is good but breaking standards is not). Given all that and the fact that the developers can't test on Dell hardware means you being worse than unhelpful to any effort to fix the issue you are in fact actively harming any progress on the PR by not at least attempting to make it work. But, by your own logic why should you Dell after all refused to give you free equipment to try it on (that sounds pretty socialist/communist to me if you are using the terms as put downs), at the least it doesn't sound very capitalistic! -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 20 00:07:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B5533CF8E for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 00:07:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lysfjord.daniel@smokepit.net) Received: from smtp-out.smokepit.net (smtp-out.smokepit.net [18.200.56.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "smtp-out.smokepit.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pbZm36Hrz40Qj for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 00:07:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lysfjord.daniel@smokepit.net) Received: from cm-84.215.44.163.getinternet.no ([84.215.44.163] helo=smokepit.net) by smtp-out.smokepit.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jmR2H-0007hB-Ho for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 00:07:05 +0000 Received: from yggdrasil.lan.smokepit.net ([10.0.0.200]) by smokepit.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jmR2G-000Pm9-C2 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 02:07:04 +0200 Subject: Re: Exim - retry time not reached for any host To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <2534646.NQNxk83B2J@curlew> From: Daniel Lysfjord Message-ID: <40ca3e9d-2859-6428-e7ad-c1b2dff36a69@smokepit.net> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 02:07:04 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2534646.NQNxk83B2J@curlew> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Report: Action: no action Symbol: ARC_NA(0.00) Symbol: RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00) Symbol: BAYES_HAM(-0.75) Symbol: FROM_HAS_DN(0.00) Symbol: TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00) Symbol: MIME_GOOD(-0.10) Symbol: TO_DN_NONE(0.00) Symbol: RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00) Symbol: RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00) Symbol: FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00) Symbol: MIME_TRACE(0.00) Symbol: RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00) Symbol: MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00) Message-ID: 40ca3e9d-2859-6428-e7ad-c1b2dff36a69@smokepit.net X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pbZm36Hrz40Qj X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.61 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[smokepit.net:s=loke]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:18.200.56.156]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.05)[-1.046]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.44)[0.438]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[smokepit.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[smokepit.net,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:18.200.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[84.215.44.163:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 00:07:14 -0000 On 19.06.2020 17:57, Mike Clarke wrote: [..] > So it looks very much like the problem lies somewhere in my system even though there's been no > changes made recently. I'd appreciate suggestions on how I should go about tracing and fixing the > cause of this problem. > Have you tried to start exim with "-bd -d+all" to get some debug output? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 20 03:49:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DCF2344D5B for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 03:49:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jguojun@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x741.google.com (mail-qk1-x741.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::741]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49phWh0FNdz4GkQ for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 03:49:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jguojun@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x741.google.com with SMTP id w1so10957430qkw.5 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:49:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=W15uQpkGAFIBgsPSlp8JhCerAY2rN7MIlU+nEIpu0YE=; b=BQnRQZuyFworbxW05SzgaCx8UFlQ0Q5txzvS44cE7SX+T/MFp/krqxQL2pJG5loJ16 j2gZPsig+EzaMevlFtHRdJ7CFcVkL1USGq7eiW2jduNRSWSZCZAlDy4VkCNH348QrrLB EkIFJeVhBITkalc/BFPuQG6OZscl63AhONS9eZtO9Iy/VGMPP60b+o0zPzU2Tc54BsJo RGIMpchZ0btaqdolHC8E/INjB5CMJcIrVEZSq5gAtfsnY8LylNT0E98oj64+M8Ol+9oW RK7KR1n6OvN4y4/44cEVAPdo/4Zc3ZphQmyGq3yKC9SVMKPrKIckeQSMSz/1H22TNOmY 5kgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=W15uQpkGAFIBgsPSlp8JhCerAY2rN7MIlU+nEIpu0YE=; b=KBd55O/LhQRfhY3eV5DtYnyRYflOqLp1sMfnjj/KmikU+/PvxKC0gjEmzGP2vtMWaB Bu+l/XIMs66ePT707Q2alT2po9j2y9jTPrewFJpS/khiojBEZak94gkiReT9ktkzlEys GttlDUffp2upArchw0Nd7LdO+sfFgBn/07Ic09sfZqr48i8xAolTGfhDysceSuqEGANj f9SCYLZ65qZwQvnjsGdmCFf+7e/qvpgMCH+ORRPuvVdegB1dNXNgL0Cxakf7ZEbkF7pi 9b2nqWnysEj2jH0I66NYxwbUaOfOZr18g+RLEhEfCBmZ9o+fdqQz0XR8d+qvhd/RbpPx Ld+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Ffia6zdbAGXNMX1XlZqX/udJ90ZUfZv0UaEhF8GXZ5MK+RRjM hWrAm1Me9sqeZZwVogLyYVVbogSSPQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz1IUI3/NRDOsb4J017wXr6Qunn8AipvqbwNajyhYpphUymQuWhbeipV+3sUAOnpbBoDgjSYg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:946:: with SMTP id w6mr6442777qkw.75.1592624990981; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.82] (162-239-0-170.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [162.239.0.170]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v28sm3662087qkv.31.2020.06.19.20.49.50 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:49:50 -0700 (PDT) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: "Jin Guojun[VFF]" Subject: Why clang/cc needs libgcc_s in 11.4-R Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:49:38 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49phWh0FNdz4GkQ X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=BQnRQZuy; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jguojun@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::741 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jguojun@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.32 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.960]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.019]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::741:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.34)[-0.339]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 03:49:53 -0000 Just installed 11.4-R and try to build a shared library by passing relocation flag from cc -Wl,-r to ld, but ld complains -lgcc_s not found: FBSD11: cc -Wl,-r -o libpixrect.so `lorder rast_mem.so rast_dump.so | tsort` /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgcc_s cc: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see invocation) FBSD11: cc -Wl,-r,-v -v -o libpixrect.so `lorder rast_mem.so rast_dump.so | tsort` FreeBSD clang version 10.0.0 (git@github.com:llvm/llvm-project.git llvmorg-10.0.0-0-gd32170dbd5b) Target: x86_64-unknown-freebsd11.4 Thread model: posix InstalledDir: /usr/bin  "/usr/bin/ld" --eh-frame-hdr -dynamic-linker /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 --hash-style=both --enable-new-dtags -o libpixrect.so /usr/lib/crt1.o /usr/lib/crti.o /usr/lib/crtbegin.o -L/usr/lib -r -v rast_dump.so rast_mem.so -lgcc --as-needed -lgcc_s --no-as-needed -lc -lgcc --as-needed -lgcc_s --no-as-needed /usr/lib/crtend.o /usr/lib/crtn.o GNU ld 2.17.50 [FreeBSD] 2007-07-03 /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgcc_s Why clang depends on gcc library? Is any flag or ENV variable can overwrite this requirement? If not, where can I get the libgcc_s? Thanks in advance, -Jin From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 20 04:50:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7855346CBE for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 04:50:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jguojun@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x744.google.com (mail-qk1-x744.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::744]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pjsS12m7z4NNb for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 04:50:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jguojun@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x744.google.com with SMTP id l6so7377711qkc.6 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 21:50:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:from:to:references:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=TTqLbsyU2MVLImi3hTlWgyDW2BpodIuse82FCSnaPGE=; b=mPDFvdEoAhOxFcSln91courlP8GxWNVcLfY2Ii9zt3gDrFjBGlNGDZ2loUazLTpwyj tGImuEMQ2f5qB94xAFF0I1+ZIT3dZK9KdJ+6vADC9c5S1Sb/uZfNgHm4k2yyzvNVEkxM UM+eg71d2nac9MeV4hB6K/QZ3Bc+f/EhSB53bcszc1Al8i4jkB7OCCCWzDGyayFbkwDg Qe9HoGYaIjbootu3ePUW6t6r21FCFTKGAMgVgygZ/xfTs1LPt25mb4pYeh4tbJtscGUF Im1F1bt5bHDAdw/DWo+R8/9+A1h5SdAvI5LPxQ/MGYze8xlXJXOcsKOf6RZwxRenyFjR r2rw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:from:to:references:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=TTqLbsyU2MVLImi3hTlWgyDW2BpodIuse82FCSnaPGE=; b=ZTxILbjRJ/jMMm/IqdjzHTixygTSVSGef7D2n7vIUub6D4NIy+mBmlCJKAKzOZqQKt zMN8do0QF3GNThr8rs5Xu9i2C0iuw0RkaazrUUfPwwBN3pSHuNHb2YWX/qGRxHyvUQHi cLQgZTqNCcAH19w4/FdpU+aMO3AHhvgeypSFgD6gT+ZE6Ui/Mgx+hAn4+snYXE34lr1B i5KusY7Utj1VV4oREjV9JiIEOMNbgH0drph9aiNFLvmx03m+559+gAwRc8QuIDGyaNN+ 8cPmbDig3EIBvwW51UPmdISYi2f+eBOSvkpoJ9nXppO2r1uV6P+6cvts4zlA1k+eka2W PPFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532WvdqWel24kbc7ViJ7etvPe3ef1/ZkXuAUnaAZ0cr89lson16G 1Dkmym4HamotJ2pXlTFkgLukPAh06g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxEUtTO+Q6h8y9Qf4tnHzLxvEPABshgtPdyZLcaKOoIjcmUqjIGFOWWMsE8/LnuJzQ2k+cgEA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:148a:: with SMTP id w10mr6083042qkj.201.1592628618974; Fri, 19 Jun 2020 21:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.82] (162-239-0-170.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [162.239.0.170]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v189sm8313671qkb.64.2020.06.19.21.50.17 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Jun 2020 21:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Why clang/cc needs libgcc_s in 11.4-R From: "Jin Guojun[VFF]" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: Message-ID: <53331bc9-b5c9-df83-0b01-a56061faa6bb@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 21:50:17 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pjsS12m7z4NNb X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=mPDFvdEo; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jguojun@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::744 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jguojun@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.32 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.34)[-0.337]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.961]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.020]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::744:from]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 04:50:20 -0000 This looks like a clang issue since version 6 because there is libgcc_s.so in /usr/lib, and it is a symlink to /lib/libgcc_s.so.1. A number of discussions about this issue on the Internet, but no real solution found. Does anyone have an idea on how to work around this problem? -Jin ll /usr/lib/libgcc_s.so lrwxr-xr-x  1 root  wheel  23 Jun 12 11:28 /usr/lib/libgcc_s.so@ -> ../../lib/libgcc_s.so.1 ll  /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 -r--r--r--  1 root  wheel  98912 Jun 12 11:28 /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 file /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 /lib/libgcc_s.so.1: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (FreeBSD), statically linked, stripped On 06/19/20 20:49, Jin Guojun[VFF] wrote: > Just installed 11.4-R and try to build a shared library by passing > relocation flag from cc -Wl,-r to ld, but ld complains -lgcc_s not found: > > FBSD11: cc -Wl,-r -o libpixrect.so `lorder rast_mem.so rast_dump.so | > tsort` > /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgcc_s > cc: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see > invocation) > > FBSD11: cc -Wl,-r,-v -v -o libpixrect.so `lorder rast_mem.so > rast_dump.so | tsort` > FreeBSD clang version 10.0.0 (git@github.com:llvm/llvm-project.git > llvmorg-10.0.0-0-gd32170dbd5b) > Target: x86_64-unknown-freebsd11.4 > Thread model: posix > InstalledDir: /usr/bin >  "/usr/bin/ld" --eh-frame-hdr -dynamic-linker /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 > --hash-style=both --enable-new-dtags -o libpixrect.so /usr/lib/crt1.o > /usr/lib/crti.o /usr/lib/crtbegin.o -L/usr/lib -r -v rast_dump.so > rast_mem.so -lgcc --as-needed -lgcc_s --no-as-needed -lc -lgcc > --as-needed -lgcc_s --no-as-needed /usr/lib/crtend.o /usr/lib/crtn.o > GNU ld 2.17.50 [FreeBSD] 2007-07-03 > /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgcc_s > > Why clang depends on gcc library? > Is any flag or ENV variable can overwrite this requirement? > If not, where can I get the libgcc_s? > > Thanks in advance, > -Jin From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 20 09:06:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E40534BF8F for ; 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Sat, 20 Jun 2020 05:06:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: by mail-il1-f179.google.com with SMTP id i1so11451987ils.11 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 02:06:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533hsJP5WdU91rJfEHZk0fqd+BTBlEzkt+GRoqUbVlARTcjB8SE7 UbPrOb7M8MLjRMrqCi0UMxTbVbazmRWgGVQLykw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy7lMNqKWAzjAgRqD/rkjzgES3C1D9egyW5MrrsqCwnA4gE5le0JJQjSSpNMHsjTG9BgeWjDFIu2braZbZKs0w= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:50c:: with SMTP id d12mr7300632ils.140.1592644005535; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 02:06:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200619170435.7144aa76@diamond.diamondbox.dk> In-Reply-To: <20200619170435.7144aa76@diamond.diamondbox.dk> From: Wesley Peng Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 17:06:34 +0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: My first port To: Nikolaj Thygesen Cc: questions@freebsd.org X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 5DE90AF8-B2D5-11EA-9E68-D1361DBA3BAF-60148086!pb-smtp2.pobox.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pqYM5lMmz3RWt X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=pobox.com header.s=sasl header.b=riM2e1 X; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=pobox.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley.p@pobox.com designates 64.147.108.71 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wesley.p@pobox.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.26 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[pobox.com:s=sasl]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.108.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.043]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.971]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[pobox.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[pobox.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[pobox.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.15)[-1.149]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.108.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.108.71:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 09:06:49 -0000 You are welcome (against the subject). On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:04 PM Nikolaj Thygesen wrote: > Hi list, > > I'm trying to create my first port and things are taking shape, > but I'm down to one little detail making me feel a bit dirty. The port is > based on the latest release of swi-prolog, which has switched to > cmake/ninja. My final issue is that the pkg-conf-.pc file ends up in > PREFIX/share/pkgconfig instead of PREFIX/libdata/pkgconfig, but I can't > find the right way to maneuver it into the right directory. > My current hack-ish solution has been to add to pkg-plist a line > like: > > @sample share/pkgconfig/swipl.pc libdata/pkgconfig/swipl.pc > > ... which actually works, but it feels wrong. Is there a better more > standard way to do this? > > br - Nikolaj > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 20 12:16:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CD73503A3 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 12:16:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x744.google.com (mail-qk1-x744.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::744]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pvmk12Gkz3y15 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 12:16:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x744.google.com with SMTP id k18so2382919qke.4 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 05:16:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=oiEf05W0xgyox3xKrBUlOIPofbno0IVOSThE5cTvv+o=; b=dZ71RGC6pj8BwuPtIm8POTRiF5qBNIypkhVQTgDt8jCXAfrCO5HwQrgxsYPUdy5htz h/LeduBh+iWHLeCfwipozwdwuZ7O7bRodNHscmrOFdZ33f8G7nPoQNeEtSj5GOh35hs+ P6LqzEA6c9KkyWkTqR6gmGioqNmLH68Sh3yNs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=oiEf05W0xgyox3xKrBUlOIPofbno0IVOSThE5cTvv+o=; b=PMJteyHGxORrkHQjR7VY8PGr8zGd18Y2QzAfv/JfvGNDb/pkVP1QVAIH0MHmfcYJoe kWIIbgKbh9xWMNf01JvFuBZ4gcHrxONh0YV72/pTnLBJj0Co8PPuGqoz3SVGZO5OMTRZ gkCoQxJCqY+YkfMSmdgeNivnj+OqbuyaAzP1yL97FYIBxMshyzoqk4A3W70T7HVn9OUu gGWaZ/z96XI1LPuLUynN8CTNx6/0zQ5DmkXQYXI+jrbK0YCzkkmZQTVfbC61sQnZCyBT SnPnf7PBr+BjmmAyxneLUAL/yNZqz4Ofpiagw8HNUO8YyRUTStZ2/RyCMZs5J66CZB9q 4xfw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533cGS72ZMoFHV+dLiGapwZ3M99+e2oFCODoAK9t43Kd8qzPotl8 /qgC5DzdFrChOZEVoulbu6YqG4TDTSU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyY8rKXW2DsvGFuEfI2a7Mih9cqM0+Fd0XuMme4Ey8J4xPClj7bn/KnpByRjwlYBnJs2IQU8A== X-Received: by 2002:a37:688e:: with SMTP id d136mr7454485qkc.486.1592655412331; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 05:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w204sm9233582qka.41.2020.06.20.05.16.50 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 20 Jun 2020 05:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49pvmd2k1bz2X68 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 08:16:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.3 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 08:16:41 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4 Message-ID: <20200620081641.68d90528@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <657e8e9c-dc34-ec10-9c3d-6471b07c9142@heuristicsystems.com.au> References: <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> <941386f3-ce71-6cf6-005c-ab9c159ce998@heuristicsystems.com.au> <20200618184438.00003f41@seibercom.net> <20200619072002.4179e527@scorpio.seibercom.net> <657e8e9c-dc34-ec10-9c3d-6471b07c9142@heuristicsystems.com.au> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/_s5O6mEDd9HuHV1UKvY2aOD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49pvmk12Gkz3y15 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=dZ71RGC6; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::744 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.07 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.38)[-0.375]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.942]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.017]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::744:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 12:16:55 -0000 --Sig_/_s5O6mEDd9HuHV1UKvY2aOD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 09:27:09 +1000, Dewayne Geraghty stated: >Jerry, >It might be useful if you put your question to either freebsd-stable or >perhaps freebsd-current to see if anyone was experiencing your problem >with similar equipment on 12 latest. > >Perhaps also add your experience to the PR so others can see that this >is still a problem, and allocate resources accordingly. If possible >state your motherboard & bios details, along with the error message(s) >from your 12.1 experience (and some basics like pciconf -lv). > >Looking carefully at the PR, it seems that the view is that this is >either a ACPI or BIOS issue of particular DELL equipment, and folks >with fingers on the code can't reproduce due to lack of equipment. > >If fixed, why still open? Usually because it has been fixed and the >person fixing the problem is awaiting feedback, sometimes someone else >who is not aware of the PR notices a problem and fixes it without >searching bugzilla, or rarely, didn't have time to close. Lots of >reasons. :) > >Kind regards. >PS I'd regard an i3 as low-end consumer, and an i7 or Xeon at the other >;) And yes I still have a couple of VIA C3's running. :) I have contributed to the PR several times with what info is available to me. The complete system info, etcetera was submitted. All you need to do is look through the PR. If you read through the PR, you will see that this problem exists on more than just Dell. One user reported his machine was over 4 years old and only started echoing this problem when they attempted to update to 12.1. It has also been reported that the problem DOES exist on the 13 series. The bug definitely still exists. See comment 112 in the PR for clarification if needed. Dell confirmed that the problem exists, but it is not their problem. They tested the unit with Win 10 and Linux and it worked fine. They also point out that earlier versions of FreeBSD worked correctly, so the only obvious conclusion is that the problem exists in the FreeBSD OS. I have not checked out the other manufactures to get their feedback; however, I would assume it to be relatively the same. I totally agree, an i3 is a low-end machine. Since I never intended it as a desktop unit, I didn't need a powerful processor. The unit was just going to replace a decade or more old unit that was in a comatose state. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/_s5O6mEDd9HuHV1UKvY2aOD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7t/ikACgkQOHMGOIfe xWRzgQf+MtQ68qHbLRAAcUBmxF+zHdBK23kwOcoR3caeI9P/NymiMrZf1VTE9Ht9 SnaS8Y4n87a6kNE7xqpaqAA7kmx/DLYAIqjq3G8B0e91eybRQ8n0sRjRj5qXcoSi BpqZ1Ki+b/5jOv52HZYZnze5leijYwC/l4OO08dJxwo+GlMipibJ3QxXbVOyjXWX FmIRnwzb1GnxwOTpKwAvba0AmEUVju4OwKoJe8t+/elDAp6rePcStLcjlFV4SQc/ Hx0U5pUjrA1iN/OAmYPY7r5xoysJK0yMod6KB42CHnGt2GOVjOQ5vdBSaBUKXCBr nM0k3aKH1F0QlyrN3c9XgzwVi7Bq2A== =0BlY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/_s5O6mEDd9HuHV1UKvY2aOD-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 20 23:26:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03973375ED for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 23:26:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Christian.Schmidt@chemie.uni-hamburg.de) Received: from mailhost.chemie.uni-hamburg.de (mailhost.chemie.uni-hamburg.de [134.100.212.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49qBdT71LRz44Xd for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2020 23:26:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Christian.Schmidt@chemie.uni-hamburg.de) Received: from mailhost.chemie.uni-hamburg.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.chemie.uni-hamburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB68102409F for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 01:26:35 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d= chemie.uni-hamburg.de; h=content-type:content-type:mime-version :user-agent:date:date:message-id:subject:subject:from:from :received:received; s=20120215; t=1592695594; bh=pGO3PyBGN+kO4q0 7K/wsh3yOtzxab9tQOgYIppym5bo=; b=tHufRDlanE0gwcxPrIruVUI/3ekye1F /MciIQQ3dnh47oXlmaiN+Tz45Ahej7i/Yi/o7Dyz4rDvPFHTiZ5hhuW18Gtez1gk fjlDKyebf0dtooE16YKKB62TpGip261+uFtDs/QwYxBVtVbeiko8GhEtISQqAPsg lgNurN54W5vA= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mailhost.chemie.uni-hamburg.de Received: from mailhost.chemie.uni-hamburg.de ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.chemie.uni-hamburg.de (mailhost.chemie.uni-hamburg.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id TjM2xImoLUS4 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 01:26:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.178.28] (p579c98b7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [87.156.152.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: schmidtc@chemie.uni-hamburg.de) by mailhost.chemie.uni-hamburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D8BB2102409D for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 01:26:33 +0200 (CEST) To: FreeBSD questions From: Christian Schmidt Subject: Xorg, lightdm, xfce & German Keyboard Message-ID: <636e8210-85df-6142-22c8-5393333494d3@chemie.uni-hamburg.de> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 01:26:32 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms040600060801020607010906" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49qBdT71LRz44Xd X-Spamd-Bar: ------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=chemie.uni-hamburg.de header.s=20120215 header.b=tHufRDla; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Christian.Schmidt@chemie.uni-hamburg.de designates 134.100.212.5 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=Christian.Schmidt@chemie.uni-hamburg.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-7.07 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[134.100.212.5:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:mailhost.chemie.uni-hamburg.de]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[134.100.212.5:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[chemie.uni-hamburg.de:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.65)[-0.653]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:680, ipnet:134.100.0.0/16, country:DE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[87.156.152.183:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.017]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[chemie.uni-hamburg.de:s=20120215]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SIGNED_SMIME(-2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.10)[-1.100]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[uni-hamburg.de]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[uni-hamburg.de:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 23:26:39 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040600060801020607010906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi list, after some experience with Linux (Debian & Ubuntu), I'm just taking some = first steps with FreeBSD (2.1-RELEASE-p6). As I'm used to (and quite like) it, I chose lightdm as display manager=20 and XFCE4 as desktop. Graphical login is running fine - with just one=20 annoying problem: I can't type umlauts in my xfce4-terminal when lightdm = managed my login: Entering an =C3=A4 results in displaying "a. When going to Graphics with "startx" and ~/.xinitrc like this export LANG=3Den_US.UTF-8 setxkbmap de exec xfce4-session all is fine: Umlauts in xfce4-terminal are appearing. "env" then shows: LANG=3Den_US.UTF-8 MM_CHARSET=3Dutf-8 After login with lightdm, "env" reveals that neither LANG nor MM_CHARSET = have been set. I tried creating a file /usr/local/etc/X11/Xkbmap containing "de" (see=20 line 26 of /usr/local/etc/lightdm/Xsession) - with no success. I'm just wondering how to make lightdm modify my environment in the same = way my .xinitrc does it - and appreciate your hints. TIA & Kind Regards, Christian --=20 No signature available. --------------ms040600060801020607010906 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC EPcwggUSMIID+qADAgECAgkA4wvV+K8l2YEwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwgYIxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkRFMSswKQYDVQQKDCJULVN5c3RlbXMgRW50ZXJwcmlzZSBTZXJ2aWNlcyBHbWJIMR8wHQYD VQQLDBZULVN5c3RlbXMgVHJ1c3QgQ2VudGVyMSUwIwYDVQQDDBxULVRlbGVTZWMgR2xvYmFs Um9vdCBDbGFzcyAyMB4XDTE2MDIyMjEzMzgyMloXDTMxMDIyMjIzNTk1OVowgZUxCzAJBgNV BAYTAkRFMUUwQwYDVQQKEzxWZXJlaW4genVyIEZvZXJkZXJ1bmcgZWluZXMgRGV1dHNjaGVu IEZvcnNjaHVuZ3NuZXR6ZXMgZS4gVi4xEDAOBgNVBAsTB0RGTi1QS0kxLTArBgNVBAMTJERG Ti1WZXJlaW4gQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBBdXRob3JpdHkgMjCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAD ggEPADCCAQoCggEBAMtg1/9moUHN0vqHl4pzq5lN6mc5WqFggEcVToyVsuXPztNXS43O+FZs 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