Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:38:13 -0600 (MDT) From: Nate Williams <nate@yogotech.com> To: "Shaffer, Gary R" <GARY.R.SHAFFER@saic.com> Cc: "'Michael Robinson'" <robinson@netrinsics.com>, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Linux JDK on FreeBSD (was Re: Alpha JDK 1.2.2 JPDA extension 1) Message-ID: <200008032238.QAA01166@nomad.yogotech.com> In-Reply-To: <9C4E165721F7D311AC3D00805FBBB118312F4D@US-SD-PLTC.mail.saic.com> References: <9C4E165721F7D311AC3D00805FBBB118312F4D@US-SD-PLTC.mail.saic.com>
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> Another possiblity is for everyone to go a knock'n on BSDi's door and ask > them when they are going make the JDK1.2.2 port for FreeBSD/BSDi available.. That door would be at my house, since the FreeBSD team is who is going to be making the port. BSDi is just the 'legal entity' Sun is using to keep the lawyers happy. > Right now, the only people with access to it are those with paid support > contracts. Maybe if enough noise was generated, they would do something. That's a BSDi commercial issue, and is *completely* un-related to how things are going to be don in the FreeBSD world. (Trust me on this, please. I've already fought and won that battle, let's not fight it again.) Nate > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Robinson [mailto:robinson@netrinsics.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 11:38 PM > To: freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Linux JDK on FreeBSD (was Re: Alpha JDK 1.2.2 JPDA extension 1) > > > Greg Lewis <glewis@trc.adelaide.edu.au> writes: > >Actually, the latest patchset (and probably patchset 9 as well) could > >probably have been tagged as beta. Personally, I'd like to get rid of > >the redrawing problem some people have before making that jump though. > > Let me quote: > > "October 11, 1999: Work has re-started on the Java2/JDK1.2 port. Expect > an early 'alpha' release in the coming weeks for FreeBSD 3.3-stable/ELF > boxes." > > 10 months in alpha, who knows how many more months in beta, and then a > release, after which the whole process starts all over again for 1.3. > > Meanwhile, right now, today, I can use the Sun release of 1.3 for Linux to > do everthing I need to do. What I can't do, though, is use HotSpot, because > it breaks under Linux emulation. However, since the FreeBSD team doesn't > have any access to the HotSpot code, any plans for access to the HotSpot > code, or any ideas for plans for access to the HotSpot code, this means that > the Linux JDK on FreeBSD today is just as good as the FreeBSD JDK will be > sometime in the year 2002. > > Do you have any idea what that means, in Internet time? > > >I'm not quite sure how you can term the JDK 1.2.2 as "nearly-obsolete" > >though when it is the current _release_ from Sun for both Linux and > >Solaris and when Blackdown have announced their final release of the > >JDK 1.2.2 (with 1.3 to come sometime down the track) on the same day. > > Download Together 4.0, run it under 1.2.2, and then run it under 1.3 with > the client-tuned HotSpot engine. Then you will be quite sure how I can > term JDK 1.2.2 as "nearly-obsolete". Likewise Enhydra with the server-tuned > HotSpot engine. > > For real world technology managers making real-world deployment decisions, > very soon the choice will be between running slow-slow-slow Java on > FreeBSD or running fast-fast-fast Java on Linux. > > I've been a BSD user since 1984, but as a CTO, I know which decision I'll > make > if it comes down to that. > > >However, I would ask you to consider the following issues: > > > >(a) At this point > > I'd not only have a huge pain in the neck, I'd also be wondering > > why I didn't just install a Linux distro :(. > > I have to face that question every day, and not just for Java. Oracle, > Domino, SMP, etc. etc. > > >(b) Lets say an excellent kernel thread interface (for instance) develops > > during the 5.0 production cycle. > > Let's say the tooth fairy comes and debugs all my code for me while I'm > sleeping. But I digress... > > > Its everything you'd want and is > > perfectly suited for implementing native threads for the JDK. But > > alas, it can't be taken advantage of as there is no native port of > > the JDK. > > Well, I would expect the Linux emulator to be suitably modified to do the > mapping appropriately, because, again, Java is not the only product facing > this issue. Right now I can install Red Hat and run Oracle (with support, > no less), on an 8-way Xeon box with reasonable scalability. Either the > FreeBSD Linux emulation will have to address this (assuming FreeBSD ever > gets > "an excellent kernel thread interface"), or FreeBSD will become "the network > appliance OS". (There is, of course, the third alternative, that FreeBSD > earns the kind of ISV support that Linux enjoys, but that's not really in > the cards, now, is it.) > > >(c) The "limited resources" in question here is volunteer time. The > > volunteers may feel that (i) they don't have the skills to work on > > the Linux emulator, and (ii) its their time and they'd actually > > like to spend it on a native JDK port :). > > This, of course, is indisputable. After all, you can still find > volunteers writing code for the Amiga. But that raises another issue: > if a tree writes software in the woods and no one uses it, does it make a > sound? > > FreeBSD is dangerously close to falling into the Amiga death spiral. If it > weren't for the excellent Linux emulation, it would already be there. The > two biggest issues currently sucking FreeBSD down are SMP and Java. In my > opinion, FreeBSD is far closer to solving the Java issue through emulation > than it is through writing a native port. > > I'm not asking for something for nothing, either. $6k/seat for Together, > $15k/server for WebLogic, the Oracle gouge, and it all starts to add up. > Red Hat charges $2,500 for their Linux Enterprise Edition for Oracle 8i. > It's a small part of the budget, and if there were a FreeBSD Enterprise > Edition for Oracle 8i, I'd write the check tomorrow. But there isn't, > so I can't. I can only wait for BSDi to figure out the 1980's are over, > or try to influence the volunteers, or give up and jump ship. Today, > I'm working plan B. > > -Michael "tough love" Robinson > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message
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