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Date:      Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:19:41 -0700
From:      "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
To:        Studded <Studded@dal.net>
Cc:        John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Upgrade documentation (Was: Re: Make world error on -current elf) 
Message-ID:  <1094.906862781@time.cdrom.com>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 26 Sep 1998 16:22:38 PDT." <360D773E.E0178B7F@dal.net> 

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> 	I administer several systems that are 600 miles away, one that's 2,000.
> Source upgrades are the only path for me, and I know there's a lot of
> others in the same boat. 

There's no substitute for having someone on-site to handle a major
upgrade.  I also would not suggest upgrading a system that way, it
being akin to doing brain surgery in the dark, no matter how creative
the administrative situation was.  Maybe with a point release upgrade
I might try to get away with it, but certainly not for a major one
like this.

And, yes yes, I'm sure many people get away with doing all kinds of
crazy stuff out there in the field, but hardly makes it recommended
(or supported) procedure. :)

> 	The problem is, within the next X months, 3.0 isn't going to be
> -Current anymore, it's going to be the mainstream. IMO we need to start
> planning for this change, oh, 6 months ago or so. :) 

3.0.0-RELEASE has also been strongly discouraged for more than the
last 6 months to any of our users who are halfway serious about
reliability, and anyone who's been ignoring our warnings does so only
at their own peril.  Those who subscribe to the Walnut Creek CDROM
distributions even got a letter in which they were essentially
discouraged from buying 3.0 at this time unless they wanted it just
for hobbiest/experimental purposes, and that should tell you something
since folks like WC are in the business to make money and if they're
telling you NOT to buy something, it's probably worth listening to
them.  People also ski in posted avalanche areas (and die) all the
time, but that doesn't make them particularly smart. :)

> 	If I can digress for a moment, this is actually a much bigger paradigm
> shift than most people are realizing it seems. For years now, the 3.0
> branch (and I mean that specifically, as opposed to the more nebulous
> idea of "-Current") has been the exclusive domain of the "elite" group
> of hackers who could stomach its idiosyncracies. In a sense, it's become

And our "dot-zero" releases are still that way.  They've ALWAYS been
that way, in fact, and we've never made any bones about it.  We'll
certainly be happy to see some of the "elite" folks (though I wouldn't
use that word myself) jump on 3.0-RELEASE so that we can start getting
some of the testing which will be required to turn 3.0-CURRENT into
something that's eventually ISP material, but you can bet that
ftp.cdrom.com won't be running 3.0 for awhile.  When we're confident
enough to switch our "flagship" machine to 3.0.x-RELEASE, then maybe
the rest of our commercial customers should consider following suit.
Until then, 2.2.8 is the recommended (and planned) upgrade path and
that should hopefully take us through the end of the year.  Come Q1
'99, we can start talking more seriously about these sorts of
transitions being commonplace.

> 	I've already seen some of the resentment, bad feelings, etc. associated
> with this kind of shift appearing on the lists, and I expect more to

Hmmm.  I haven't seen much resentment coming from anyone but you. :-)

Seriously, anyone getting "resentful" at this stage about the
transition is simply trying to do the wrong thing at the wrong time.
We have a release track for those who need strong shock-absorbers on
their release and it's called 2.2-STABLE.  I don't think people are
taking that fact seriously enough and it's a damn shame, especially
when they start blaming *us* for their own refusal to heed the
warnings.

- Jordan

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