Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:08:42 -0400 From: drifter@stratos.net To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>, "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FreeBSD.ORG> Cc: Frank Pawlak <fpawlak@execpc.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) Message-ID: <19980630040842.A714@stratos.net> In-Reply-To: <19980629091624.M28872@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 09:16:24AM %2B0930 References: <199806281732.KAA15832@hub.freebsd.org> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980628151901.2460H-100000@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu> <19980629091624.M28872@freebie.lemis.com>
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On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 09:16:24AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
> China's government is repressive, shuns western-style human rights,
> and ended the Tiananmen square problem in a bloody manner. Before
> condemning them completely, look at how democracy and human rates
> score in other countries:
>
> 1. In many US cities, the crime rate is so high that you really
> *wouldn't* go walking alone at night. You can walk at night in
> any part of Beijing, despite the higher differences in income and
> living standards. The Chinese might see this as a result of
> overly lax treatment of criminals, or, as the Americans call it,
> "human rights".
There are many countries with low crime rates, including
Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, and (yes) China. There is no
questions that crime rates are lower in these countries than in the
United States. And there is not questions that low crime rates are
_better_ than higher crime rates.
But avoidance of crime is only one aspect of life. Or, to
put it more broadly, _security_ is only one aspect of living. Yeah,
you want safety more than anything, including freedom, when you are
being chased by a lion. And if conditions are right, you may overcome
your fear and try to eat that lion if you are starving.
But usally, you are not being chased by a lion, and for most
people, crime is not a common occurrance (there are obviosly exceptions
in some parts of our cities controlled by gangs and drug lords).
But when food, shelter, and safety are obtained, most people
want _more_ out of life, because to most of us life means more than
subsistance.
Let's face it. We will all die one day. I know my chances
of being the victim of a violent crime are greater here in the U.S.
than (say) Saudi Arabia, but so what?
Those governments control crime by use of terror. What the
hell difference does it make if I get beaten by a criminal who wants
my money or beaten by my government because I criticized it? Those
leaders lead by brute force and arrogance. Frankly, I think life here
in crime-ridden USA is worth the gamble.
>
> 2. India is in complete political and economic chaos, the result of
> 50 years of "democracy" in a country which can't handle it. The
> average tenure of an Indian government is less than 12 months. In
> view of the level-headed government they're currently getting,
> let's hope that this remains true.
Some one may correct me, but if I remember from my comparative
politics courses in college, Italy suffers some similar problems as well.
Some countries, such as Italy (and some other countries) appear
"chaotic" (to us) because of the large number of political parties and
the tenuous coalitions that must be formed and oftern are broken in
short order. Yet we Americans complain about our limited 2-party
system. I wouldn't mind a beer-drinker's party here in the Good ol' USA :)
(Of course, if trends continue, there may be a momentum for a Smoker's Party)
I don't think it would be wise for me to judge what countries
can handle democracy or not. I'll just say that (*in general*) I feel
less threatoned by democratic countries than dictatorial ones.
>
> 3. Russia is in turmoil. The government is no longer in control, and
> crime is rife.
>
> On the whole, if I had the choice of living only in one of the four
> locations above, I'd choose Beijing.
>
> The Chinese government consists of people elected by a small body for
> their merits, not their ability to campaign. Generally, they're no
^^^^^^
Interesting comment. However, "elected" is
a questionable word. I think internal politics has had much to do
with problems and instability in China. Wasn't Deng Xiao Ping a victim
of the "Cultural Revolution"?
Mao was losing his grip, so why not capitalize on his popular
appeal with the people, and start a revolution for the "pure" at heart?
I question what "merit" was involved in that episode.
Truthfully, succession of power in China is an
uncertain thing. No one knows how it will happen and to what affect.
Democracies allow for stable transission of power, in a military and
process sense. There is an orderly transision of power. There was no
orderly transission of power between Sun Yat Sen and Chiang Kai-Shek, or
Chiang Kai-Shek and Mao Tze Tung, or Mao and Deng Xiao Ping. The
country was lucky that the transition to Jiang Zemin(?) was much
more peaceful, but there is *no* guarentee that there won't be a radical
shift in power at some point.
Is the Social Revolution an example of a movement based on "merit?"
or more by right and pure political thought? How many died in that era?
How many died in the wars betweem Jiang Kai-Shek and the Red Army, or at
the hands of the war lords that devastated the country side?
Too bad that China is being the target of this conversation, because
it is an amazing country despite all the bad things they have suffered, but
despite the evils of slavery and the Indian Wars in this country, nobody
has suffered like the Chinese (The Russians come close). If it wasn't
the Japanese in WWII or natural disasters, it was mostly by the hands
of their own government.
Your message was provovative, which is fine. But I disagree
with the implication. Saying that "allowing" high crime rates with
policies that reasonable people disagree with (gun control, for example)
is just as awful as mowing down your political opposition with tanks is like
saying that not raising the driving age to 25 is tantamount to murder
because of all the drunken, inexperienced young people who die in auto
crashes every year because government won't disallow them to drive. To
me, the difference is too fundamental.
Phew! Sorry about this obscene length. I promise, no more like
this!
> fools. China may be lagging behind the West in many areas, but
> they're slowly and steadily improving, and they're doing it without
> significant incidences of the problems other countries face.
> Considering the enormous problems facing them, I think they're doing
> as good a job as anybody could expect.
>
> Greg
> --
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