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Date:      Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:24:02 +0100
From:      Peter Schuller <peter.schuller@infidyne.com>
To:        freebsd-current@freebsd.org
Cc:        Mark Linimon <linimon@lonesome.com>, freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Improving the handling of PR:s
Message-ID:  <200801121924.10694.peter.schuller@infidyne.com>
In-Reply-To: <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net>
References:  <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net>

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[not sure whether to remove -current from cc; keeping it for now]

> So far it hasn't happened.  We've set up the freebsd-bugbusters@ mailing
> list and the #freebsd-bugbusters IRC channel on EFNet (and please join
> us!) and the latter is where our last 2 bugathons took place.

That's interesting. I'll try to get in on it. Perhaps this could use some m=
ore=20
publicitly? Though I cannot claim I have gone out of my way to find exactly=
=20
this, I was unaware of it in spite of spending quite a lot of time followin=
g=20
=46reeBSD mailinglists.

> Adding the second metric would cure one problem that you don't mention --
> which is that few people have the interest and patience to plow through
> N-thousand PRs.  It's not humanly possible to look at them all -- even
> the new ones as they come in.  There's simply too many.  So, you create
> an expectation "why bother, there's so many anyways".  We need to break
> that chain of expectation.  A good fix is a good fix.  The PR count will
> never get to zero; I (with bugmaster hat on) would be thrilled if we can
> get to the point of just steady-state.

Perhaps if there was a good way to be sent a particular subset of PR:s?

Unfortuantely the PR categories are not very granular. Something as simple =
as=20
being able to subscribe to PR:s that match a regexp could work.

My experience (albeight with a smaller bug database) is that generally, as=
=20
soon as you expect people to manually poll some web site, things move more=
=20
slowly. If you can manage a system where all the user has to do is process =
is=20
mailbox, it becomes easier for all parties to get things done. In order for=
=20
that to work, some method is need to minimize the amount of incoming E-Mail=
=20
that the potential contributor is not interested in (otherwise you just get=
=20
tired of weeding through it all).

Also related to this: it may just be me, but how does GNATS even handle=20
mailouts to begin with? I always get the initial response from GNATS that a=
=20
PR has been registered, but mostly I never see any automatic mailouts in=20
response to PR updates. I have not identifier exactly what is going on, but=
=20
if other people are having this problem it might contribute to difficulty=20
getting feedback from users. Once again I tend to like the system where all=
 I=20
have to do is read my inbox, instead of manually keeping track of a list of=
=20
PR:s I am somehow interested in. (This goes both from the POV of being an=20
original submitter, and from the POV of trying to process PR:s.)

Also, individual users being able to add themselves as an interested party =
(cc=20
in bugzilla speak, nosy in roundup speak, etc) to PR:s and such would help,=
=20
or configure per-user settings for mailout, etc.

I really don't want to start some kind of holy war on bug management softwa=
re,=20
but I have to say that from the submitter POV I have always felt GNATS does=
=20
not seem to be the most flexible system around (except for what seems to be=
=20
very good E-Mail integration).

> I think most get committed because a committer sees a PR come in on the
> mailing list and grabs it.  Much less often do committers go through the
> database looking for things to fix.  Again, the lousy "search/browse"
> capabilities of the existing tool let us down here.

That is exactly consistent with my experience in similar situations, and wh=
at=20
I refer to above.

=2D-=20
/ Peter Schuller

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