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Date:      Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:37:43 -0400 (EDT)
From:      Brian Feldman <green@zone.syracuse.net>
To:        Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Cc:        Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd@timog.prestel.co.uk, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: DEVFS & SLICE?
Message-ID:  <Pine.BSF.4.04.9809202233010.4492-100000@zone.syracuse.net>
In-Reply-To: <199809202151.OAA02593@usr04.primenet.com>

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Hmm... reference to MFS working? Really? I seem to notice otherwise. For
instance: -CURRENT with 100% stability (pre [EPwhatever]-day) EXCEPT after
a full 23 days of uptime (damn, it sure _was_ stable) my nice 100mb MFS
/tmp, upon usage, died on me. Full halt, didn't get any core or anything.
And it did it the previous week as well. I wasn't doing anything stressful
anyway, the first crash I had with MFS was doing an opendir()/readdir() in
ksh's globbing. After disabling MFS, the system can stay up pretty well,
except for the now-apparent SoftUpdates problems.... anyway, to summarize:
	1. MFS is unusable for long periods of time and a large area
	2. ccd + softupdates + 2 vnode drives is not stable either (ahem,
this one I don't expect to be stable, just letting anyone know in case
they feel the urge to try it).

Cheers,
Brian Feldman

On Sun, 20 Sep 1998, Terry Lambert wrote:

> > I think Julian's Big Mistake (TM) was bundling the SLICE option with the
> > nifty root and /dev bootstrap system.  They don't really seem to be related
> > and they seem to get easily mixed up..  Julian first described his design
> > for 'slice' to me over 2 years ago, and I thought back then that it was
> > ambitious and was going to be an uphill battle.
> 
> See other posting.  This problem occurs because the system insists
> on making a distintion between root and non-root mounts ate the
> FS level.  This leads to a plethora of code duplication, and a
> hell of a lot of potential problems.
> 
> My complaint about the SLICE code is that it assumes an external agency
> will do the disklabel/partition/extended-partition/etc. hacking on a
> raw device (i.e., that there is a user space program, rather than an
> ioctl(), that abstracts paritioning schemas).
> 
> Given the f-ed-up nature of the VFS mount code, it's not surprising
> that there should be trouble.
> 
> I think SLICE did us a great service when it pointed out that the
> MFS implementation was a kludge-on-a-kludge.  The use of direct
> calls to specfs in order to call back into the MFS strategy routine
> for bmap/getpage/putpages shows that MFS is a gross hack, and needs
> to be fixed.
> 
> That the SLICE code was backed out instead of the MFS code fixed is
> more of a tribute to the necessity of having a working (if half-assed)
> MFS being important for the 3.0 release deadline, and people being
> willing to do one kind of work (tree reversion) as opposed to another
> (fixing MFS and/or writing a memory device driver that uses a kernel
> process as a VM container context for the MFS data loaded off the boot
> disk, and FFS-formating it, as a stopgap measure).
> 
> This is, I think, a rather natural consequence of setting deadlines
> in a volunteer organization, and so there's really nowhere to formally
> lay the blame.
> 
> But this has nothing to do with Julian's failing/merits as an architect
> (even if I personally don't like aspects of the architecture he came
> up with, for my own reasons -- i.e., I want device arrivals of non-sliced
> devices to result in automatic mounts).
> 
> 
> 					Terry Lambert
> 					terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.
> 
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