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Date:      Wed, 14 Dec 2011 04:49:54 +0100
From:      "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com>
To:        Doug Barton <dougb@FreeBSD.org>
Cc:        freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org
Subject:   Re: CVS removal from the base 
Message-ID:  <201112140350.pBE3ns2M011225@fire.js.berklix.net>
In-Reply-To: Your message "Tue, 13 Dec 2011 13:29:02 PST." <4EE7C39E.6040403@FreeBSD.org> 

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Hi,
Reference:
> From:		Doug Barton <dougb@FreeBSD.org> 
> Date:		Tue, 13 Dec 2011 13:29:02 -0800 
> Message-id:	<4EE7C39E.6040403@FreeBSD.org> 

Doug Barton wrote:
> On 12/11/2011 06:14, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > Doug Barton wrote:
> >> On 12/02/2011 04:35, Adrian Chadd wrote:
> >>> I think you're missing the point a little.
> >>>
> >>> The point is, you have to keep in mind how comfortable people feel
> >>> about things, and progress sometimes makes people uncomfortable. I
> >>> think you should leave these changes bake for a while and let people
> >>> get comfortable with the changing status quo.
> >>
> >> The fact that we have so many people who are radically change-averse, no
> >> matter how rational the change; is a bug, not a feature.
> >>
> >> This particular bug is complicated dramatically by the fact that the
> >> majority view seems to lean heavily towards "If I use it, it must be the
> >> default and/or in the base" rather than seeing ports as part of the
> >> overall operating SYSTEM.
> > 
> > BSD is more conservative. More value given to stability of availability
> > of interfaces & tools etc,
> 
> Having things in ports doesn't make them less available. :)

It didn't used to.  It risks it now, since in last months, some
ports/ have been targeted by a few rogue commiters purging, who
want to toss ports out from one release to another without warning
of a DEPRECATED= in previous release Makefiles.


> > More Long term professionals. 
> 
> I don't know what this means.

Older folk with more decades of Unix are likely to have had BSD
experience way back , & jumped at BSD when eg BSD Lite & 386BSD
came out.  Younger folk may have a higher chance their first Unix
exposure was Linux on a CD from a computer mag. & some of each will
have stayed with the BSD or Linux they started with.  Hence BSD
people tend to have been working a bit longer I think.


> > Doug's
> > attempting to force working FreeBSD ports such as procmail to be
> > discarded is deplorable. 
> 
> Um, I had nothing to say about procmail. In fact, I use procmail, and
> would not want to see it removed.
> 
> > Doug should stop coercing FreeBSD toward
> > a Linux model, & move himself to Linux.

Whoops ! _Apologies_ Doug !  I was mixing people up. Apologies !


> I actually do use Linux sometimes. In many ways it is a far superior
> desktop. That said, I am certainly *not* trying to turn FreeBSD into
> another Linux distro. What I am trying to do is to see what we can learn
> from how Linux does things, and apply those ideas here when they are
> useful. Just because Linux does it, doesn't mean it's wrong. :)

Yup, each distro can have some good & bad.


> I've said this before, but it's worth repeating. Decisions that were
> made 20 years ago about what should and should not be included in the
> Berkeley Software Distribution, while valid at the time, may not be
> valid any longer because things have changed since then. Just to take
> one obvious example, when these decisions were being made it was
> necessary to distribute a full system, including the 3rd party stuff,
> all in one go because the software was being distributed on magnetic tape.

Good point.

> Doug

Apologies again for confusing your name with others.

FYI URLs to end of 1st procmail thread & beginning of 2nd

http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=948124+0+archive/2011/freebsd-ports/20110904.freebsd-ports
http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=85459+0+/usr/local/www/db/text/2011/freebsd-ports/20111002.freebsd-ports


Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com
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