Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:27:52 -0400 From: Bill Moran <wmoran@iowna.com> To: Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org> Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? Message-ID: <3B3428D8.6FD65A0C@iowna.com> References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> <15155.59329.751227.991311@guru.mired.org>
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Mike Meyer wrote: > > > Bill Moran <wmoran@iowna.com> types: > > > > First off, the message technically falls into the UBE category, since I > > > > never opted-in to receive general messages from Windriver, or > > > > FreeBSDMall (which is what the message is about). > > > UBE? Not UCE? In any case, it looks like they were sending it to their > > > customers: people they have a previous relationship with. Most of the > > > anti-direct-marketing laws I'm familiar with provide that > > > loophole. > > UBE, meaning Unsolicited Bulk Email. > > It's not clearly unsolicited - that "pre-existing customer" thing, you > know. Nor is it clearly bulk, as it's missing all the signatures for > being bulk mail. It looks to me like some poor slob was handed a list, > and ran a shell script on the bsdi box to send it out setting who it's > from. It _is_ clearly unsolicited because I never gave my email addy for any purpose other than confirmation of an order. Anything other than an order confirmation is then unsolicited. It _is_ clearly bulk because I haven't ordered anything from FreeBSDMall since January, thus they must have sent this mail out to all their customers (not just the ones with outstanding orders that may have been delayed) I agree with the poor slob part ;) > > They're not sending it to their customers. They're sending it to > > customers of FreeBSDMall. > > Actually, sending it to customers of FreeBSDMall instead of customers > of Wind River makes a *lot* more sense. Wind River's customers aren't > going to see a lot of things change; FreeBSDMall's customers may. True. > > I have no intereste in the embedded systems they provide. It isn't part > > of the business I do, and I don't see it becomming part of that business > > in the forseeable futuer. > > I looked it over, and I can't see *any* attempt to sell you those > things. In fact, I can't see any attempt to sell you anything at > all. Nor do I see an attempt to get you to visit a web site or do > anything else that would generate revenue for WindRiver. True, and I admit that I over-reacted in that area. > Once they've decided to send email about the takeover to the list - > wherever the list came from - I think it's entirely appropriate for > Wind River to tell customers of a company they just acquired a little > bit about themselves. Difference of opinion. I can't logically argue against this, I just didn't like it ;) Obviously, companies MUST advertise. This is why I'm so unsuccessful (because I can't advertise my way out of a paper bag) The method of advertising varies greatly, and I have a lot of problems with a GREAT DEAL of contemporary advertising. Perhaps I'm wound too tight. > BSDi/Walnut Creek used to send me catalogs of Windows and Linux > software, and I have about as much use for that as you do for > Chryslers electric motors. Nuts - those things included prices, > descriptions, and information on ordering, which makes them a *lot* > more offensive than one paragraph saying what Wind River does. Offensive? Really? I wouldn't classify the email as "offensive". Offensive is when someone tries to sell me a "legalized version of pot". Offensive is when the spam says "Here is the information you requested" when I didn't request a damn thing (that's an insult to my intelligence-and a filthy lie). Offensive is when someone talks to me in a way that assumes I'm dishonest and therefore don't have any problem with them being dishonest as well. Those things are offensive. Advertising is just annoying when it is poorly targeted. And inconvenient when poorly targeted in mass quantities. > I always consider that junk email (aka spam) worse than junk > snail-mail because I pay the delivery costs for junk email instead of > the advertiser. This strange cost structure results in all kinds of > associated problems, but most of them would pretty clearly go away if > the cost structure were fixed. If you consider it worse for a > different reason, please elucidate. No, that's exactly the same reason I have. > > I seriously doubt if your shipping costs are modified by the inclusion > > of a few promotional materials. > > Not clear - but I have a line item for shipping, so it's still free > for the advertiser, meaning it shares the cost structure that makes > spam such a magnet for pump-n-dump scam artists and similar vermin. This was a stupid point for me to make, and you're absolutely right. > > This falls into the same category as "I gave my email to www.foo.com > > under a certain privacy agreement that stated they would keep my > > information private. foo.com was bought out by bar.com, who uses a > > different privacy agreement and has no problem selling their list to > > other advertisers." Basically, I gave my email addy to FreeBSDMall > > strictly for the purpose of being notified of my order status. Now > > they're using it to advertise other product lines. I still have a > > problem. > > I don't recall ever seeing any kind of privacy policy for email > addresses from BSDi. It may be there, and if Wind River violated it, > they are out of line. They should have printed their press release and > thrown it in with the subscriptions to get me to pay for the shipping. Here I'll stand my ground. You shouldn't have to have a g*d damned legalise document to establish what can and can not be done everywhere you go. Some things are just a matter of personal integrity. I provided my email address so my order could be confirmed. To use that addy for anything else is a violation of the trust provided when the web form said "please give us your email address so we can provide you with an order confirmation." There shouldn't have to be a fscking document I have to read containing 1000 words of legalise before I'll know exactly what they feel is OK to do with my email address. The page said it's for order confirmation, that's what it's for. I know that this isn't how the world at large operates. But that doesn't mean that the way the world at large operates is correct. > > Once again, I intend to, I just wanted to get a feel for what other > > people thought before I responded. With other spammers my emails read > > "See that this is stopped immediately. Another incident like this and > > I'll block your mail servers." > > I wouldn't do it that way. I would warn them I'd treat it as spam, and > let them worry about exactly what that means. I don't intend to take that stand. In fact, I've sent all the official complaints to Wind River that I'm going to, and it was posted to -chat as well so you can all see it. If you feel that anything I've said was out of line, feel free to criticize. Heaven knows I'm not perfect. -Bill -- If a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, then what can I get for two hands in the bush? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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