Date: 03 Jul 1998 14:25:07 +0200 From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no> Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= <smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com>, FreeBSD Chat <chat@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) Message-ID: <rx4ra03i0kc.fsf@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com> References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <rx4n2ar1ja4.fsf@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> <rx4ogv7gsne.fsf@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com> <19980703131053.24570@follo.net>
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Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no> writes:
> On Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:01:25PM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote:
> > BTW, the university in question is one of very few institutions in
> > Norway which actually teaches program verification. Unfortunately, few
> > students bother to take those courses. In your opinion, does that
> > indicate lack of intelligence on the university's part, or on the
> > student's part?
>
> I think this indicate that the university has some correct ideas. I
> have, however, not yet met any student of that course who actually
> apply their knowledge in day-to-day programming - they regard it as
> pure theory.
I've been trying very hard to explain to my students the real-world
significance of the theory they learn in that course (IN217), and to
show them how they can apply what they have learned to their
programming, e.g. the importance of data hiding (to maintain the
representational invariant of your data) and of good method design
(making sure the invariant holds at all exit points), or the relevance
of type simulation theory to class design.
> Even when I spend ten minutes to fetter out the bugs they've spent
> days attempting to find, they won't switch methods. (They tend to
> switch after a couple of rounds, though :-)
That is at least partially a different problem. Two things we *don't*
teach our students in introductory classes are a) reading compiler
diagnostics and b) debugging. The unfortunate result is that freshmen
(at least those who have no prior programming experience) have a
panicky attitude to compiler diagnostics and core dumps. I have
attempted to point this out to the Powers that Be more than once. It
would seem that people agree that this is a problem, but can't be
bothered to do anything about it.
> I don't think a course that end up as pure theory is good enough - if
> the enthusiasm for the subject isn't communicated to the students, if
> they don't end up using what they learn (and I'm not thinking of a
> just a single student - I've been working with scores of them) then
> something is wrong in how it is communicated.
I dont completely agree with this. I think it is necessary for the
student to realize that the University is not going to hold his hand
and tell him everything he must do (and every book he must read, every
exercise he must go through...) The concept of "Ansvar for egen
læring" ("Responsibility for your own education") is unfortunately not
as well understood by the students as it is by the teaching staff.
Students are expected to take interest in their subject, and to
familiarize themselves with other aspects of it than just those taught
in lectures. Some profs are better than others at pointing this out to
their students.
> > > Eivind, who just _had_ to rant, and also respect quite a few people
> > > from there (after he's had a chance to train them first, of course
> > Go ahead and train me. I doubt there's much you could teach me about
> > invariants.
> >
> > DES (who *teaches* bloody invariants at the U of O)
> I didn't remember this - sorry. I should have used another example.
> It was *not* meant as an insult to you.
No personal offense taken. I do however resent the attack against my
alma mater.
> The only thing I have to offer in the area is experience in how to use
> invariants in practice. I don't doubt that both the teachers and the
> students at that course have (or end up having) the theory in place.
> I just see the students having problems with applying this _at all_ to
> a pragmatic world. If you want to, I can buy you a beer and we can
> have a real-world talk about what can be done about this :-)
I like the idea of a beer :)
As to "what can be done about this", I have an idea or two, but they
involve a lot of hard work that I'm under no circumstances willing to
take on by myself. I do know of a few people who might want to help,
though.
DES (student, teaching assistant, fraternity president, etc.)
--
Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com
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