Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:58:55 -0500 (EST) From: Amanda <xdn@firehouse.net> To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rant: What are we? Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980328005147.22422A-100000@shell.firehouse.net> In-Reply-To: <19980328142134.33048@welearn.com.au>
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Well Sue.. I agree with you and will back you up 100% on the newbie list. Alot of people (newbies) feel overwhelmed by emailing a question mailing list. They sometimes feel dumb because of all the knowledge that floats around them. I know I sure did. I like this list because I can learn from other people. When a newbie makes a mistake etc. I also understand why freebsd-newbies cannot be a question/answer place because hence *NEW*bie which means alot of the people are at the same knowledge level with the operating system (not to discriminate anyone). But I do know alot of newbies will think this is a question and answer type place, I did at first. But no one wants to get their questions answered by someone not sure. It is okay if you know for sure.. but sometimes you think you know the answer when you don't. Maybe we should make the chat a learn from our mistake type place where people share their mistakes so others can learn from that? Don't know, just a suggestion. :) But I am 100% in agreement with you Sue. I hope this mailing list goes well for you and everyone subscribing to it. On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 04:32:26PM -0800, Doug wrote: > > > Indeed. I've had people mail me saying that they appreciated my help > > but they are unsubscribing from -newbies because they don't want to be > > held hostage to one person's view of what the list should be. > > People on every mailing list make comments like that. If we are at all "held > hostage" if you must use an extreme term, it is to the overall community's > wellbeing and our own will to make our own decisions, and the need for > compatibility between those two. > > The decision to disallow support questions was not initially mine, but until > now I have been prepared to take any flack for it rather than let the blame > fall on anyone else. As it turns out, that decision has been good for everyone. > > > Most newbies are missing the context of history here. > > I didn't simply set this list up and go for it. I insisted that we discuss > the possible issues for the rest of the FreeBSD Project. Since I was the > only person interested enough to initiate and follow through something for > newbies I took my responsibilities seriously and set it up so that at least: > > 1. No-one else's work would be slighted or usurped by the list's existence > > and > > 2. The newbies joining would have enough options, be sufficiently free of > outside pressures to make most of their own decisions about what they > wanted to do with the list, within the constraints of (1) > > Some of the most serious concerns were that newbies might give each other > incorrect technical advice, that a few medium-level users could easily take > over such a little pond by charitable appearances as experts, and that the > support for newbies in -questions would diminish if they came here for it > instead, causing those who wish to volunteer support to subscribe to yet > another list if they like newbies. Further, there would be endless confusion > over which questions are newbie enough to be on this list and which are not, > and debates, and... division. We don't need that! These concerns sounded > real and addressable, and the present freebsd-newbies is the result of that > community process. > > Had we not taken those concerns into account we would not have had a mailing > list for newbies at all. Some people, including some newbies, will always > see newbies as people asking for help. Even now, some appear to want to push > that passive definition upon us. The only way to give it a chance to work > was to encourage the list's use by newbies only. I knew some more advanced > people would try to get their bib in, tell us what to do, and turn it into a > second freebsd-questions if given half the chance. So I asked the more > advanced users to avoid coming in and imposing their magic until we had the > chance to find out what we can do for ourselves. We're always being told to > do more for ourselves, and guess what, some of us want to! For the third > time, Doug, I'm asking you to show your respect for newbies, for what we are > trying to achieve together through this list, and for the FreeBSD Project as > a whole, by letting us get on with it. > > If anyone had a better idea for how to make this work and sincerely wished > to do something constructive in the long term, they should have spoken up > and volunteered their own efforts last month, last year, and the year > before, when newbies asked for their own space and everyone was too busy > hacking to lift a damn finger. > > We've got our code, and we've got our newbies list. We're doing it FOR > OURSELVES and it's OK, we're getting by fine without being a burden on > anyone else. It's not meant to be everyone's cup of tea but some of us are > actually enjoying it. Nor is it meant to offend those we've been totally > dependent on in the past. We do still need their help very much, but we know > where to go for that. > > > > As I've said, I support the idea of this list defining its own purpose as > > it grows. > > Then you do agree with something :-) > > > I have and will continue to keep my posts to this lists few and > > far between. > > And as moderator I ask you to keep them on topic, please. Most things that > newbies like to talk about are on topic. Support, however, is not. And that > is not negotiable, for the reasons outlined above. The activity which > defines this list is that of being a newbie, doing what newbies do when they > are not seeking and giving technical support. > > Now if you or anyone else cares to dispute the validity of those concerns or > the wisdom of this decision, debate it by all means, but not here. The issue > should be returned to freebsd-chat where it started, and where there's > several people who have an interest in the original discussion. > > > However freebsd is a family, and one group of freebsd users > > telling another group that they are "guests" and should be seen and not > > heard doesn't promote unity. It supports a class division that only > > exists in certain people's imagination. > > You're right there Doug. I'm not used to people having to be told how to > treat each other's endeavours with respect. The division between mailing > lists is not based on class but on activities. The activity of asking and > answering questions belongs in -questions. Multimedia activities have > freebsd-multimedia, and there's -hackers for people who are hacking (ahem.. > writing code, not cracking). I don't think that's too hard to understand, > even for a newbie. The *activities* of newbies which cannot be discussed on > other mailing lists belong here. > > Because I insisted throughout that we use only -questions for support, we > are now as much a part of that mailing list as anyone. Had I *once* buckled > under pressure to have support here, there would have been class division > and fragmentation of efforts. > > Being the moderator this makes me extremely unpopular, creates hours of work > each day, and means I have to stick my neck out to defend principles with > little regard for my own personal position, but that's the job and I > normally do it without complaint or comment. Other newbies will soon share > these responsibilities. I make a lot of mistakes, but this is not one of > them. It is bloody hard work which I happen to consider worth every hurdle. > If this list cannot be permitted to give newbies the free space to work out > what they want to do for the community without interference, where we can > make our own unhurried decisions, make a few mistakes along the way, and > learn, then I wonder what the hell can. > > And after only a week, over 250 other newbies seem to agree. > Something's gotta be working here :-) I think it's us. > > > > > Weak Disclaimer: For those who are new, Doug and I are like the dog and cat > of the community at the moment :-) I stand by everything here, but please > filter it through the knowledge that I may be biased without good reason or > awareness. Doug has done a lot for FreeBSD, and for newbies in -questions, > and is deserving of your respect regardless of any disagreement I may > express on the topic of -newbies. > > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > find / -name "*.conf" |more > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
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