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Date:      Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:42:52 -0800 (PST)
From:      Mike Meyer <mwm@phone.net>
To:        stable@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Build of 3.1-STABLE failing?
Message-ID:  <Pine.BSF.4.05.9903221117230.414-100000@guru.phone.net>
In-Reply-To: <36F63224.BC5A9F5A@newsguy.com>

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On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Daniel C. Sobral wrote:

> What does world installs?
> 
> /bin
> /sbin
> /usr/bin
> /usr/sbin
> /usr/lib
> /usr/libexec
> /usr/share
> 
> I might be missing a couple more directories, but that's beside the
> point. These things should be touched by world, and world alone.
> You'll notice that ports *don't* touch these directories. So, leave
> them out of the backup. Well, you might want to keep /usr/lib in.

You're missing /usr/games (ok, we can live without that...),
/usr/include (which not working is why my make break), /usr/libdata
parts of /usr/share, /boot and /modules (and again, maybe more).

If you read the handbook on backups, you'll note that the recommended
backup tool is dump - because it's the only thing that does the job
right. Unfortunately, it doesn't have a way to exclude
directories. That means your new step is to chflags over all those
things.

I've thought about pushing /usr/local off onto another file system,
and then ont backing up /usr, other than level 0s. Roto (with /var on
another file system already) is small enough not to be a problem.

> > Of course, part of the reason for tracking -STABLE is I want
> > up-to-date versions of various ports. After all, like most users, I
> > have a computer so I can run the apps, not the OS. But here we're told
> > that the ports tree and the OS are tied together - and you shouldn't
> > try using newer versions of the ports without having the appropriate
> > underlying OS. Given that /usr/ports was one of the reasons I chose
> > FreeBSD, not being able to track that closely is a serious hit.
> 
> What was said is that you need to install the appropriate upgrade
> package. Sure, track ports only. But if something goes wrong,
> install the upgrade package *before* complaining.

I'm pretty sure that what was said was that you should only use the
ports tree that came with the CD-ROM (i.e. - the -RELEASE ports tree)
with that CD-ROM, and you should track -STABLE if you wanted to track
the ports tree.

However, even doing that can still lead to broken binaries with the
recommended regimine. More in the next message.

> > This all points to one of the most serious problems with the current
> > release system - that patches seem to be considered impossible. On
> > commercial OS's, or Linux, you see small distributions that fix a few
> > things in userland (a security hole in Sendmail being a typical
> > example). Fixing that is a simple matter of installing that patch and
> > restarting sendmail on the relevant systems (assuming the patch didn't
> > do that for you). On the other hand, here I see a discussion of doing
> > a "point release" instead of a patch. This means that fixing the
> > problem requires reinstalling the OS for all those systems. Surely,
> > anyone who runs more than a few systems doesn't do this?
> 
> Surely, there are a lot of them that do. The two most common methods
> being installworld over NFS and rdist or similar (Matthew Dillon has
> a very good utility, which he created for this precise purpose).

Given that you set INSTALL to "install -C" in make.conf, that should
work reasonably well. There's at least one other problem, though
(again, see the next message).

> > > > Just one question - what are "make" and "make install" for, then?
> > >
> > > For those who know what they are doing.
> > > For instance, they can be very handy for developers who know what
> > > their modifications are doing or not to the source tree.
> > 
> > You mean - people who go in and edit the userland sources? Nuts -
> > that's one of the reasons I *started* tracking -STABLE. I kept hoping
> 
> Why nuts? Why can't these people have their tools? It's not like you
> don't have *your* tools, it's just that you don't like them
> (buildworld & installworld).

"Nuts" because the reason stated was exactly what I *was* doing. I was
using make & make install to build & install my changes to the source
tree.

> Make is a program for programmers, in first place.

Right. Sounds like my kind of tool....

> > the patches I submitted with pr bin/9429 would show up, as well as
> > some of the ports I've done and submitted.
> 
> If you submitted the patches, you better just keep your own tree,
> with your patches. Whenever the patches reach the tree, the
> committer will, hopefully, close the PR.

Which sounds like "don't bother tracking -STABLE, just track
-RELEASE". After all, what I was doing was to make update, reinstall
my patches, then do the build.

> > > At the very least, you should have tried "world" before asking the
> > > question.
> > 
> > True - it would have avoided a lot of flaming on the list.
> 
> I might not have paid enough attention, but I saw no one flaming
> you. I saw a lot of people saying "you should have done make
> buildworld & make installworld", which could not have been stated in
> any other way that I can think of (and is the *documented*
> procedure). You then replied saying that using "make && make
> install" is what you have always done, to which I then replied that
> this is why it broke for you.
> 
> Frankly, what else could we have answered? The source tree broke for
> you because you did not follow the correct procedure. 

Most people did just that. No problem. The rest was just par for this
list - condescending and insulting.

	<mike



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