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Date:      Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:14:46 -0400 (EDT)
From:      Robert Watson <rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG>
To:        Marc Heuse <marc@suse.de>
Cc:        suse-security@suse.com, FBob@wt.net, security@FreeBSD.ORG, michael@dynamine.net
Subject:   Re: [suse-security] imapd4r1 v12.264 and Security Implications
Message-ID:  <Pine.NEB.3.96L.1000420100429.32667B-100000@fledge.watson.org>
In-Reply-To: <20000419202028.603DB67A5@Galois.suse.de>

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On Wed, 19 Apr 2000, Marc Heuse wrote:

> > The following was posted on FreeBSD-Security today. I was interested
> > in the official SuSE position since I run both OS's.
> 
> here it is:
>    
>   >> I consider the post by the vendor in the bugtraq forum to be some sort of
>   >> poor joke. At this point, it would appear that anyone who takes security
>   >> seriously should use some other mail package, or risk their systems'
>   >> integrity. In particular, the thing about chroot'ing to /tmp is fairly
>   >> laughable. While partitioning can be a useful scheme for reducing risk,
>   >> "/tmp" is not the place to chroot to, and chroot'ing is not a replacement
>   >> for careful code auditing. The suggestion that stackguard should be
>   >> required to make their software secure has wandered far beyond
>   >> ``questionable,'' and well into the ``don't touch anything related to my
>   >> system ever again.''
> 
> although the language is a bit rude, he is absolutely correct.

I would tend to agree with both assessments.  Then, being the author I
would have a natural tendency to support the latter, although perhaps less
so the former.  That said, it was a response of frustration, so we'll
leave it at that.

> well ... it's not the first vulnerability in wu-imap. and the response
> of the wu-imap programmer really shows that he does not know about
> secure coding. a security audit of the code would really be needed,
> however, after half a year new vulnerabilities would be there and the
> thing would start over. 

And also not the second vulnerability.  I agree with the assessment that
uw-imapd will be a continued source of vulnerabilities unless it is
substantially audited and possibly rewritten.  My recollection is that the
c-client is a complex piece of code, largely in response to the complex
format of the IMAP protocol, which requires a fair amount of string
parsing and pushing.  I.e., IMAP doesn't encourage secure coding styles in
a language such as C.  :-)

>   >> Given that attitude of the developer, I would strongly recommend we mark
>   >> the port as FORBIDDEN, and would also seriously consider an suggestion to
>   >> simply drop it from the ports and packages collections.
> 
> this is unrealistic. people want and some even depend on imapd. and if we
> would do that to imapd, we would have to do the same for pop3, ftp etc.
> so the solution is to switch to a imapd with more knowlegable programmers.
> not a very easy task ...

I depend on IMAP also, although I use the Cyrus server which has proven
far more satisfying in a number of ways.  However, as with the qmail IMAP
server, it relies on a mailbox format that is not standard with most UNIX
systems, and as such neither is a serious alternative as part of the base
system.  I would really like to have an IMAP daemon that I can promote as
an easy way to provide remote mail access out of the box, but have a lot
of trouble seeing that--given the long delay since the last vulnerability,
and the claim of a complete code audit, I had mistakenly assumed that it
was safe to do so.

It is true that the current vulnerability is not a serious problem in a
number of environments (primarily open shell boxes where IMAP is a
convenience, not a necessity, and the vulnerability doesn't open up new
weaknesses), but the response to the vulnerability is what is particularly
worrying.  I am willing to accept that programs can and will have
vulnerabilities, even after serious code audits (in fact, a code audit is
only part of the process of securing a code base), but having the code
provider indicate that security either is not a serious issue, or be
unable or unwilling to proactively address such a problem is a serious
issue.  This bodes ill for the remainder of the source base, and the
environment in which it was developed.

My immediate suggestion of marking IMAPd and/or c-client as "FORBIDDEN"
seems realistic--in FreeBSD, the FORBIDDEN or BROKEN tags indicate that it
should not be built as a binary package for the base system, and must be
intentionally enabled and built by the user.  The patches are still
provided and it's still part of the build infrastructure.  Out-right
removing it from the ports collection is probably unwise until a decent
alternative is located or developed, but should one exist, I would
continue to support a move to simply remove the distribution as provided
by UW.

> we will provide an update for wu-imapd. but we propose the use another
> imapd. as far as I remember, there is another imapd server on the SuSE CDs
> (there are far too much packages to remember them all ;-))). Let's hope that
> the code of that one is better ... well, time to do a sourcecode audit :(
> *sigh*

This is great news--at this point I can't volunteer to assist in such an
audit due to time constraints from other projects, but eagerly anticipate
the release of an alternative/audited uw-imap, or the inclusion of the
results of such an audit in the base UW distribution.

  Robert N M Watson 

robert@fledge.watson.org              http://www.watson.org/~robert/
PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37  ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1
TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services



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