Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 17:54:12 +0200 From: Alexandra Rumenova <alexrd4study@gmail.com> To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: freebsd-questions Digest, Vol 875, Issue 10 Message-ID: <CAH-g7gD8QepoCoOiijGW1Yjn%2BygHpRLhJmXp%2B%2Bdpa9y3BS3Jxw@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <mailman.19934.1616251318.69581.freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> References: <mailman.19934.1616251318.69581.freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>
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Hi, I don't understand if you have lost the term on reinstall? On Saturday, March 20, 2021, <freebsd-questions-request@freebsd.org> wrote: > Send freebsd-questions mailing list submissions to > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > freebsd-questions-request@freebsd.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > freebsd-questions-owner@freebsd.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of freebsd-questions digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Mohammad Noureldin) > 2. Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Jerry) > 3. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Aryeh Friedman) > 4. Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > (Mohammad Noureldin) > 5. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Jerry) > 6. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Tomasz CEDRO) > 7. Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Jerry) > 8. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Steve O'Hara-Smith) > 9. Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > (Mohammad Noureldin) > 10. Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > (Steve O'Hara-Smith) > 11. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Mohammad Noureldin) > 12. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Aryeh Friedman) > 13. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Valeri Galtsev) > 14. Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > (Valeri Galtsev) > 15. Re: OS to replace FreeBSD (Valeri Galtsev) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:01:58 +0100 > From: Mohammad Noureldin <mohammad@thelightbird.com> > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: > <CAAQ96Dy2D_gM7a4ZTc4d54EMyBRHxhHLfKUyJZcS > AtsvX3+ZaA@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Hi all, > > I am new to this mailing list, using FreeBSD/*BSD on and off. Joined the > mailing list because I have a couple of project ideas that I want to build > on top of *BSD. > > Though I am new, and maybe relative to many others here I am a newbie, > allow me to comment on all the aspects addressed (so far) in this email > thread: > > - "It is easy to build a new (custom) kernel", "Unix is made by technical > people for technical people", etc: > > Though historically it is true that Unix like systems are made by technical > people for technical people, it doesn't mean that it has to stay like this. > IMHO, such motto causes a great piece of Engineering like *BSD to loose > ground for other Unix like systems, namely Linux and all it's Distros. Not > that I am a Linux hatter, I have respect to both. > > Related to that, I don't believe that it is a good message to FreeBSD > users, that if you don't know how to build a new kernel, then there is no > place for you here. IMHO, this really hurts the image of the community of > FreeBSD specially in the eyes of new commers. Notice these email messages > are archived. > > - About the problem reported: > > Thanks for all who went through the long list of comments on that PR and > explained in brief that it is a USB controller/HW problem. > > In that respect, I do agree with Jerry and others wondering how other OS(s) > can manage running on the same HW (in case that has been proven) ? I > believe it worths looking at that. I would have volunteered to dig deeper > into that, but I know I don't have the required experience (unless someone > is willing to mentor me ? :) ) > > And responding to that:"OK, just shut up and go install another OS", is not > a community building attitude at all. > > And for the sake of discussion, let's assume for a second that Jerry is > lazy or not skilled enough, helping him and fixing the problem or clearly > explaining a solution without bashing him, is not just for Jerry, it is for > the whole community, for the current and new members who will be interested > to join in the future. > > Jerry, I am curious, did you have time to try one the suggestions, > specially running FreeBSD on a VM to see if it still suffers from the same > problem ? > > You all have a great day/evening > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:35 Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:30:00 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: > > >On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 4:32 PM Ralf Mardorf <ralf-mardorf@riseup.net> > > >wrote: > > > > > >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:16:33 -0700, freebsd@johnea.net wrote: > > >> >Void uses a runit init system with no systemd > > >> > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> I suspect it's not a good idea to use Linux without systemd. For > > >> example, by upstream udev is part of systemd. Maintaining Linux > > >> without systemd is a bottomless pit. > > >> > > >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:35:21 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > >> >Recompiling the kernel is *TRIVIAL* if you refuse to do it then you > > >> >should not be using any Unix variant > > >> > > >> I dislike this tone of voice. However, I agree that compiling the > > >> kernel might be less effort, than migrating to another operating > > >> system. If you would e.g. migrate to Arch Linux, you need to get > > >> used to systemd. Getting used to systemd isn't pleasant. If you > > >> chose a Linux distro that doesn't use systemd, you likely will > > >> experience all kinds of trouble, if you want to customize your > > >> install. > > > > > >I used that tone because it really is simple and if you can't/won't > > >recompile the kernel before throwing the baby out despite with the bath > > >water then you really don't have the skills/desire needed to use Unix > > >effectively... Just to show how trivial it really is > > > > > >1. Edit /usr/src/sys/amd64/conf/GENERIC (or i386 instead of amd64 if > > >your still using it) to comment out the xhci line (line 327 in > > >12.2-RELASE-pl3) to remove USB 3.0 support > > >2. cd /usr/src > > >3. make kernel > > >4. etcupdate > > >5. reboot > > > > > >Done.... how hard is that? > > > > I never said I could not compile a new kernel, I said I could not > > install the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the installation > > of the OS precede the creation of a new kernel? Furthermore, the > > screen just rolls away filling up with the error message ad infinitum. > > > > By the way, as I understand it, creating a custom kernel nullifies the > > use of "freebsd update". Wow, things just keep getting better & better. > > > > What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one > > not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain, > > and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The > > problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they never > > were able to get it right. > > > > -- > > Jerry > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 08:38:08 -0400 > From: Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: <20210320083808.00000cb1@seibercom.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:30:15 +0100, Mohammad Noureldin stated: > >Hi, > > > >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 10:00 @lbutlr <kremels@kreme.com> wrote: > > > >> On 19 Mar 2021, at 10:10, freebsd@johnea.net wrote: > >> > To anyone who has read the bug report, this is clearly a serious > >> regression issue on certain USB (probably 3) host controller > >> hardware. > >> > >> I've read the bug report and all the replies and it is clearly a > >> flaw in the controller. It is providing an invalid ID. > >> > > > >If that's the case, I am curious how other Unix-Like Operating Systems > >manage to work on the same HW ? > > There are a number of possibilities. > > 1) They have better programmers that can handle abnormalities. > > 2) They realize that there are always going to be flaws in software > and hardware and are smart enough to work around it. > > This is of course assuming that the actual problem is a defective > controller that every other OS can handle correctly. If, and this is > assuming that is correct, then why doesn't FreeBSD just code what the > defective controller is allegedly sending and accept it? > > The simple fact the the code worked in versions prior to 12.x makes > this excuse that the controlled is defective highly suspect. > > -- > Jerry > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 659 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > URL: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/ > attachments/20210320/27676664/attachment-0001.sig> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 08:41:31 -0400 > From: Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com> > To: FreeBSD Mailing List <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> > Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: > <CAGBxaXnyLqHUu6Vu_zAXU8kr135_uXd-PTyCx8sL8rzoukMyaQ@mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:35 AM Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one > > not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain, > > and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The > > problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they never > > were able to get it right. > > > > The bottom line for many people on the list is this must be the tenth or > twentif time you have complained about this same exact bug across multiple > threads and have absolutely refused to lift a finger to fix it except > complain about how bad FreeBSD is compared to Linux. If Linux is so much > better, STFU and just switch or get off your lazy ass and actually try to > lend a hand. Either way the reason many people are being so rude to you > is at best you refuse to put in any of the work required to fix it and at > worst you are purposely being a troll by even making yet another > thread/post about the same bug you have rehashed many many times before on > this list so that you have a whipping boy to show your hatred towards > FreeBSD with. > > -- > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:45:13 +0100 > From: Mohammad Noureldin <mohammad@thelightbird.com> > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: > <CAAQ96DwosgKxnbU=itPRWfmAjhzHcoSbRonq8_B24=xAo9 > MrxA@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Hi Jerry, > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 13:38 Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:30:15 +0100, Mohammad Noureldin stated: > > >Hi, > > > > > >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 10:00 @lbutlr <kremels@kreme.com> wrote: > > > > > >> On 19 Mar 2021, at 10:10, freebsd@johnea.net wrote: > > >> > To anyone who has read the bug report, this is clearly a serious > > >> regression issue on certain USB (probably 3) host controller > > >> hardware. > > >> > > >> I've read the bug report and all the replies and it is clearly a > > >> flaw in the controller. It is providing an invalid ID. > > >> > > > > > >If that's the case, I am curious how other Unix-Like Operating Systems > > >manage to work on the same HW ? > > > > There are a number of possibilities. > > > > 1) They have better programmers that can handle abnormalities. > > > > 2) They realize that there are always going to be flaws in software > > and hardware and are smart enough to work around it. > > > > This is of course assuming that the actual problem is a defective > > controller that every other OS can handle correctly. If, and this is > > assuming that is correct, then why doesn't FreeBSD just code what the > > defective controller is allegedly sending and accept it? > > > > The simple fact the the code worked in versions prior to 12.x makes > > this excuse that the controlled is defective highly suspect. > > > > Hi Jerry, > > I do understand your frustrations, but if you allow me, it is not a reason > to attack the FreeBSD community and it's developers. Let's please focus on > facts and possible solutions. > > As stated in this thread (and another one), did you have time to try any of > the proposed tests ? > > Looking forward to your reply > > > > -- > > Jerry > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:20:23 -0400 > From: Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: <20210320092023.000015c8@seibercom.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 08:41:31 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: > >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:35 AM Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > >> What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one > >> not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain, > >> and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The > >> problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they > >> never were able to get it right. > >> > > > >The bottom line for many people on the list is this must be the tenth > >or twentif time you have complained about this same exact bug across > >multiple threads and have absolutely refused to lift a finger to fix > >it except complain about how bad FreeBSD is compared to Linux. If > >Linux is so much better, STFU and just switch or get off your lazy ass > >and actually try to lend a hand. Either way the reason many people > >are being so rude to you is at best you refuse to put in any of the > >work required to fix it and at worst you are purposely being a troll > >by even making yet another thread/post about the same bug you have > >rehashed many many times before on this list so that you have a > >whipping boy to show your hatred towards FreeBSD with. > > Actually, you are the only asshole that seems to have a bug up his ass. > Maybe if you took the swastika out of your ass, you wouldn't be such an > annoying kibitzer. > > -- > Jerry > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 659 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > URL: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/ > attachments/20210320/041555cd/attachment-0001.sig> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:20:33 +0100 > From: Tomasz CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> > To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> > Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: > <CAM8r67DKMc73Wn+Qy8m2kPAHn+2-=ALKRNQDvuxCqFAPFrqZiQ@mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:35 Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > I never said I could not compile a new kernel, I said I could not > > install the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the installation > > of the OS precede the creation of a new kernel? Furthermore, the > > screen just rolls away filling up with the error message ad infinitum. > > > > By the way, as I understand it, creating a custom kernel nullifies the > > use of "freebsd update". Wow, things just keep getting better & better. > > > > What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one > > not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain, > > and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The > > problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they never > > were able to get it right. > > > > -- > > Jerry > > > > Hey Jerry :-) > > Please just rebuild and install new kernel, at least to see if that fixes > your problem :-) > > This is a standard procedure when you find a problem, it seems identified, > workaround seems available, a least try if that works for you :-) > > I also use custom compliled kernel to get my Touchpad working on a > non-standard configuration. Until fix is ready and does not break > configuration for others I need to work that way because this is a problem > with _my_setup_. It seems that your problem seems similar. > > Look on the other hand you are helping others not to have this problem in > future.. developers are going through this way everyday and we usually have > broken or incomplete setup just to help others not to have such problems. > With new hardware showing up faster and faster, using their own standards, > or enforcing linux like solutions thing are and will get even worse. This > is not really the issue with FreeBSD, it only gets impacted by this > "bleeding edge" approach around :-) > > Because of drivers I have chosen Linux over FreeBSD around 1999 on my first > desktop PC. Then when Linux kernel api started changing with every minor > release, and when the stable USB stack was created by HPS, I have abandoned > Linux for good and FreeBSD is my ultimate OS of the choice. I even prefer > FreeBSD over OSX/macOS. The problem of quickly changing things and breaking > compatibility is the Linux by design. You will find many more problems like > this over there. We are experiencing this kind of issues here because world > has changed that way unfortunately. > > I can see three effective solutions here: > 1. Use Alt+F2 to switch away from terminal flood and recompile your kernel. > 2. Maybe XHCI/USB3.0 controller can/could be disabled at runtime in > bootloader so it wont be active and the workaround can be ready with no > kernel recompile. > 3. Provide a hardware and development fee for a person that is willing to > fix the problem for you. This will cost time and money but there is a > chance that you will get the fix one day just using freebsd-update :-) > > Free Softwate is free to use, but is really cost developers life time and > all other technical resources and experiences. Just imagine how many > problems of this kind developers have everyday. Most of them work for free > in their free time, but they also need to pay the bills. > > Best regards :-) > Tomek > > -- > CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:33:04 -0400 > From: Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: <20210320093304.00001e37@seibercom.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:45:13 +0100, Mohammad Noureldin stated: > >Hi Jerry, > > > >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 13:38 Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:30:15 +0100, Mohammad Noureldin stated: > >> >Hi, > >> > > >> >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 10:00 @lbutlr <kremels@kreme.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> On 19 Mar 2021, at 10:10, freebsd@johnea.net wrote: > >> >> > To anyone who has read the bug report, this is clearly a > >> >> > serious > >> >> regression issue on certain USB (probably 3) host controller > >> >> hardware. > >> >> > >> >> I've read the bug report and all the replies and it is clearly a > >> >> flaw in the controller. It is providing an invalid ID. > >> >> > >> > > >> >If that's the case, I am curious how other Unix-Like Operating > >> >Systems manage to work on the same HW ? > >> > >> There are a number of possibilities. > >> > >> 1) They have better programmers that can handle abnormalities. > >> > >> 2) They realize that there are always going to be flaws in software > >> and hardware and are smart enough to work around it. > >> > >> This is of course assuming that the actual problem is a defective > >> controller that every other OS can handle correctly. If, and this is > >> assuming that is correct, then why doesn't FreeBSD just code what the > >> defective controller is allegedly sending and accept it? > >> > >> The simple fact the the code worked in versions prior to 12.x makes > >> this excuse that the controlled is defective highly suspect. > >> > > > >Hi Jerry, > > > >I do understand your frustrations, but if you allow me, it is not a > >reason to attack the FreeBSD community and it's developers. Let's > >please focus on facts and possible solutions. > > > >As stated in this thread (and another one), did you have time to try > >any of the proposed tests ? > > > >Looking forward to your reply > > I CANNOT install it, so I am unsure of how to build a custom kernel. > Then, assuming I could build a custom kernel, I would not be able to > use the "freebsd update" utility. So, to put it in the vernacular, > "I am fucked if I do, and fucked if I don't". Not a great choice of > options. I am investigating it though. I got some help from a friend on > the Microsoft forum who told me he was almost positive I could install > Windows 10 PRO, then Hyper V and run FreeBSD 12.x or 13.x from there. > He is polling other users to see if they have had success with the same > equipment I process. The one very apparent advantage is that I would be > able to take advantage of Intel's Optane Memory and Storage. As far as > I can tell, FreeBSD does not support that architecture. > > In computing, the robustness principle is a design guideline for software: > > Be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from > others (often reworded as "Be conservative in what you send, be liberal > in what you accept"). The principle is also known as Postel's law, > after Jon Postel, who wrote in an early specification of TCP: > > TCP implementations should follow a general principle of robustness: be > conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others. > In other words, programs that send messages to other machines (or to > other programs on the same machine) should conform completely to the > specifications, but programs that receive messages should accept > non-conformant input as long as the meaning is clear. > > Among programmers, to produce compatible functions, the principle is > also known in the form be contravariant in the input type and covariant > in the output type. > > While this is not a TCP issue directly, the same general principal is > still relevant. > > -- > Jerry > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 659 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > URL: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/ > attachments/20210320/935fcf47/attachment-0001.sig> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:49:02 +0000 > From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org> > To: Tomasz CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> > Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> > Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: <20210320134902.1d0213791f9c6d90a8f259e8@sohara.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:20:33 +0100 > Tomasz CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> wrote: > > > Free Softwate is free to use, but is really cost developers life time and > > all other technical resources and experiences. Just imagine how many > > problems of this kind developers have everyday. Most of them work for > free > > in their free time, but they also need to pay the bills. > > To amplify this it has been three years since anyone other than > Hans > Petter Selasky committed to xhci.c, he could probably do with some help > keeping up with the chaos that is USB hardware. > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:55:01 +0100 > From: Mohammad Noureldin <mohammad@thelightbird.com> > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: > <CAAQ96DwsjL5ORUhYkb6Q573WtP20EYBpGBGwhjPP_rRhYS_47g@mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Hi Jerry, > > I do agree with others not to talk about the same problem on more than one > thread. This is not helping you or anyone else. > > As for your reply, I was not talking about installing FreeBSD directly, I > was talking about one of the proposed ways to test, by installing FreeBSD > in a VM to see if you would get the same issues. IIUC, this can help more > in understanding and solving the problem. > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 14:33 Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:45:13 +0100, Mohammad Noureldin stated: > > >Hi Jerry, > > > > > >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 13:38 Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > > > >> On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:30:15 +0100, Mohammad Noureldin stated: > > >> >Hi, > > >> > > > >> >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 10:00 @lbutlr <kremels@kreme.com> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> On 19 Mar 2021, at 10:10, freebsd@johnea.net wrote: > > >> >> > To anyone who has read the bug report, this is clearly a > > >> >> > serious > > >> >> regression issue on certain USB (probably 3) host controller > > >> >> hardware. > > >> >> > > >> >> I've read the bug report and all the replies and it is clearly a > > >> >> flaw in the controller. It is providing an invalid ID. > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> >If that's the case, I am curious how other Unix-Like Operating > > >> >Systems manage to work on the same HW ? > > >> > > >> There are a number of possibilities. > > >> > > >> 1) They have better programmers that can handle abnormalities. > > >> > > >> 2) They realize that there are always going to be flaws in software > > >> and hardware and are smart enough to work around it. > > >> > > >> This is of course assuming that the actual problem is a defective > > >> controller that every other OS can handle correctly. If, and this is > > >> assuming that is correct, then why doesn't FreeBSD just code what the > > >> defective controller is allegedly sending and accept it? > > >> > > >> The simple fact the the code worked in versions prior to 12.x makes > > >> this excuse that the controlled is defective highly suspect. > > >> > > > > > >Hi Jerry, > > > > > >I do understand your frustrations, but if you allow me, it is not a > > >reason to attack the FreeBSD community and it's developers. Let's > > >please focus on facts and possible solutions. > > > > > >As stated in this thread (and another one), did you have time to try > > >any of the proposed tests ? > > > > > >Looking forward to your reply > > > > I CANNOT install it, so I am unsure of how to build a custom kernel. > > Then, assuming I could build a custom kernel, I would not be able to > > use the "freebsd update" utility. So, to put it in the vernacular, > > "I am fucked if I do, and fucked if I don't". Not a great choice of > > options. I am investigating it though. I got some help from a friend on > > the Microsoft forum who told me he was almost positive I could install > > Windows 10 PRO, then Hyper V and run FreeBSD 12.x or 13.x from there. > > He is polling other users to see if they have had success with the same > > equipment I process. The one very apparent advantage is that I would be > > able to take advantage of Intel's Optane Memory and Storage. As far as > > I can tell, FreeBSD does not support that architecture. > > > > In computing, the robustness principle is a design guideline for > software: > > > > Be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from > > others (often reworded as "Be conservative in what you send, be liberal > > in what you accept"). The principle is also known as Postel's law, > > after Jon Postel, who wrote in an early specification of TCP: > > > > TCP implementations should follow a general principle of robustness: be > > conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others. > > In other words, programs that send messages to other machines (or to > > other programs on the same machine) should conform completely to the > > specifications, but programs that receive messages should accept > > non-conformant input as long as the meaning is clear. > > > > Among programmers, to produce compatible functions, the principle is > > also known in the form be contravariant in the input type and covariant > > in the output type. > > > > While this is not a TCP issue directly, the same general principal is > > still relevant. > > > > -- > > Jerry > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:57:40 +0000 > From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org> > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: <20210320135740.c10f4d671d34ce6590527eb6@sohara.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:33:04 -0400 > Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > I CANNOT install it, > > Perhaps I am misunderstanding the situation. AIUI the install > completes it is just that the default console is spammed by error messages > so you can't see the login prompt (it is actually possible to log in and > work under these conditions but it is hideous to do). Fortunately there is > a better option, there are several active virtual consoles available by > hitting Alt-F<n> simply switch to one of those, log in and proceed as > normal. > > > so I am unsure of how to build a custom kernel. > > Then, assuming I could build a custom kernel, I would not be able to > > use the "freebsd update" utility. > > Of course you can use freebsd-update with a custom kernel, I do it > all the time. It just adds the extra step of compiling your custom kernel > before rebooting after the update. My usual sequence for this is: > > freebsd-update fetch > freebsd-update install > cd /usr/src > make kernel > reboot > > NB: make kernel works because I have kernconf set in /etc/make.conf > to the name of my custom kernel config. > > > So, to put it in the vernacular, > > "I am fucked if I do, and fucked if I don't". > > Nope, you just have to understand how to get yourself out of the > hole. > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:58:51 +0100 > From: Mohammad Noureldin <mohammad@thelightbird.com> > To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> > Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: > <CAAQ96Dyruh2PXq-6GJNwD+cvwKNqERn+40KoLxo7gQQn+0eisw@ > mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Hi Tomasz, > > Well said! > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 14:21 Tomasz CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> wrote: > > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:35 Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > > > I never said I could not compile a new kernel, I said I could not > > > install the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the installation > > > of the OS precede the creation of a new kernel? Furthermore, the > > > screen just rolls away filling up with the error message ad infinitum. > > > > > > By the way, as I understand it, creating a custom kernel nullifies the > > > use of "freebsd update". Wow, things just keep getting better & better. > > > > > > What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one > > > not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain, > > > and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The > > > problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they never > > > were able to get it right. > > > > > > -- > > > Jerry > > > > > > > > Hey Jerry :-) > > > > Please just rebuild and install new kernel, at least to see if that fixes > > your problem :-) > > > > This is a standard procedure when you find a problem, it seems > identified, > > workaround seems available, a least try if that works for you :-) > > > > I also use custom compliled kernel to get my Touchpad working on a > > non-standard configuration. Until fix is ready and does not break > > configuration for others I need to work that way because this is a > problem > > with _my_setup_. It seems that your problem seems similar. > > > > Look on the other hand you are helping others not to have this problem in > > future.. developers are going through this way everyday and we usually > have > > broken or incomplete setup just to help others not to have such problems. > > With new hardware showing up faster and faster, using their own > standards, > > or enforcing linux like solutions thing are and will get even worse. This > > is not really the issue with FreeBSD, it only gets impacted by this > > "bleeding edge" approach around :-) > > > > Because of drivers I have chosen Linux over FreeBSD around 1999 on my > first > > desktop PC. Then when Linux kernel api started changing with every minor > > release, and when the stable USB stack was created by HPS, I have > abandoned > > Linux for good and FreeBSD is my ultimate OS of the choice. I even prefer > > FreeBSD over OSX/macOS. The problem of quickly changing things and > breaking > > compatibility is the Linux by design. You will find many more problems > like > > this over there. We are experiencing this kind of issues here because > world > > has changed that way unfortunately. > > > > I can see three effective solutions here: > > 1. Use Alt+F2 to switch away from terminal flood and recompile your > kernel. > > 2. Maybe XHCI/USB3.0 controller can/could be disabled at runtime in > > bootloader so it wont be active and the workaround can be ready with no > > kernel recompile. > > 3. Provide a hardware and development fee for a person that is willing to > > fix the problem for you. This will cost time and money but there is a > > chance that you will get the fix one day just using freebsd-update :-) > > > > Free Softwate is free to use, but is really cost developers life time and > > all other technical resources and experiences. Just imagine how many > > problems of this kind developers have everyday. Most of them work for > free > > in their free time, but they also need to pay the bills. > > > > Best regards :-) > > Tomek > > > > -- > > CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:05:59 -0400 > From: Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com> > To: FreeBSD Mailing List <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> > Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: > <CAGBxaXmWqJ4R1WQUdoPViR9tzso=iwwNCQNpveO6kmi2whAV=A@mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 9:20 AM Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 08:41:31 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: > > >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 6:35 AM Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > > > >> What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one > > >> not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain, > > >> and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The > > >> problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they > > >> never were able to get it right. > > >> > > > > > >The bottom line for many people on the list is this must be the tenth > > >or twentif time you have complained about this same exact bug across > > >multiple threads and have absolutely refused to lift a finger to fix > > >it except complain about how bad FreeBSD is compared to Linux. If > > >Linux is so much better, STFU and just switch or get off your lazy ass > > >and actually try to lend a hand. Either way the reason many people > > >are being so rude to you is at best you refuse to put in any of the > > >work required to fix it and at worst you are purposely being a troll > > >by even making yet another thread/post about the same bug you have > > >rehashed many many times before on this list so that you have a > > >whipping boy to show your hatred towards FreeBSD with. > > > > Actually, you are the only asshole that seems to have a bug up his ass. > > Maybe if you took the swastika out of your ass, you wouldn't be such an > > annoying kibitzer. > > > > You went so far as a few threads ago saying that you *REFUSED* to do any > testing or helping on this problem because Dell *REFUSED* to give you > *FREE* hardware to test it on. That sounds really helpful to me! ... BTW > I don't know what country you in but in some countries falsely calling > someone a Nazi is felony.... but calling someone with first name in Hebrew > a Nazi is way beyond any short of netetiquet I don't even know what to call > it > > -- > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:15:09 -0500 > From: Valeri Galtsev <galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu> > To: Mohammad Noureldin <mohammad@thelightbird.com> > Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: <AE988246-3097-48C2-B1B7-33A71C64D5F4@kicp.uchicago.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > > On Mar 20, 2021, at 7:01 AM, Mohammad Noureldin < > mohammad@thelightbird.com> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I am new to this mailing list, using FreeBSD/*BSD on and off. Joined the > > mailing list because I have a couple of project ideas that I want to > build > > on top of *BSD. > > > > Though I am new, and maybe relative to many others here I am a newbie, > > allow me to comment on all the aspects addressed (so far) in this email > > thread: > > > > - "It is easy to build a new (custom) kernel", "Unix is made by technical > > people for technical people", etc: > > > > Though historically it is true that Unix like systems are made by > technical > > people for technical people, it doesn't mean that it has to stay like > this. > > IMHO, such motto causes a great piece of Engineering like *BSD to loose > > ground for other Unix like systems, namely Linux and all it's Distros. > Not > > that I am a Linux hatter, I have respect to both. > > > > Related to that, I don't believe that it is a good message to FreeBSD > > users, that if you don't know how to build a new kernel, then there is no > > place for you here. IMHO, this really hurts the image of the community of > > FreeBSD specially in the eyes of new commers. Notice these email messages > > are archived. > > That was said by only one - very loud - member of FreeBSD community, > people here are much milder and way more polite. And I for one do not share > the view that FreeBSD in particular and open source systems in general are > only for people with [some] technical knowledge. > > 1. Installation of FreeBSD is quite streamlined (and same are Debian, > Ubuntu?) > > 2. Interaction with machine is same nice as closed source systems' once > you have Xwindow installed (here FreeBSD may need a bit effort compared to > Linuxes I mentioned) > > 3. Compiling kernel. In general this suggest that I repeat here what I > tell my users who never used Linux or UNIX: how many commands do you need > to know to start using shell? 4 - 5, I?ll show you them in a minute. Then > you just start, ? and this is really true. Compiling kernel is just another > 3-4 commands. It is simple, no need to hold people from doing it > > > - About the problem reported: > > > > Thanks for all who went through the long list of comments on that PR and > > explained in brief that it is a USB controller/HW problem. > > > > In that respect, I do agree with Jerry and others wondering how other > OS(s) > > can manage running on the same HW (in case that has been proven) ? I > > believe it worths looking at that. I would have volunteered to dig deeper > > into that, but I know I don't have the required experience (unless > someone > > is willing to mentor me ? :) ) > > No comment on this specific troublesome hardware. Linux in my observation > has many ?workarounds? to deal with misbehaving hardware. FreeBSD may be > acting ?cleaner? here, hence stays more stringent system, but experts may > correct me. I still remember one chipset which is NOT worth effort writing > driver for: BCM 43xx Broadcom WiFi. That is 32 bit chip, sitting on 64 bit > bus, no need to add more detail after that. > > > And responding to that:"OK, just shut up and go install another OS", is > not > > a community building attitude at all. > > I agree, saying that is not polite. Better just ignore the OP. Which I > observe many experts did, though several tried to help. Way back before > first asking for help on one of technical lists I read list etiquette > carefully, and there are several things to keep in mind, the OP didn?t show > some of them (not all definitely). Just some of what I remember: > > Before asking for help, try do resolve issue yourself within your ability > > Describe what you tried and give all details; this simultaneously will > show that you did put effort on your side, then you will less likely to be > ignored > > Disrespect to others is likely to make you ignored > > Read carefully suggestions and try to follow them. Report what worked and > what didn?t. You at least have to respect time and effort of experts trying > to help you. > > -- > I stop here just by saying, please, everybody, do not take this as an > attempt of ?mentoring?, but someone may find truth in the above; I for one > did. > > > I have just one comment on the hardware choice: this one is one of Dell > ?consumer grade? products, which is not intended to last, I wouldn?t choose > it myself. They look cheaper upfront, but they end up more expensive in a > log run. Dell OptiPlex (not much more expensive) would have been my choice > of the same class of hardware. > > Be it me, I would go with one or both of solutions already suggested in > the thread: > > 1. Disable in BIOS on board USB and add USB card if necessary > > 2. Recompile kernel with switched off USB-3. The first for me would be > preferable, just to not keep recompiling kernel once kernel security > patches are released (but that is me, lazy person) > > > Good luck, Jerry, in resolving your technical issue. > > Valeri > > > And for the sake of discussion, let's assume for a second that Jerry is > > lazy or not skilled enough, helping him and fixing the problem or clearly > > explaining a solution without bashing him, is not just for Jerry, it is > for > > the whole community, for the current and new members who will be > interested > > to join in the future. > > > > Jerry, I am curious, did you have time to try one the suggestions, > > specially running FreeBSD on a VM to see if it still suffers from the > same > > problem ? > > > > You all have a great day/evening > > > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:35 Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:30:00 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: > >>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 4:32 PM Ralf Mardorf <ralf-mardorf@riseup.net> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:16:33 -0700, freebsd@johnea.net wrote: > >>>>> Void uses a runit init system with no systemd > >>>> > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> I suspect it's not a good idea to use Linux without systemd. For > >>>> example, by upstream udev is part of systemd. Maintaining Linux > >>>> without systemd is a bottomless pit. > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:35:21 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >>>>> Recompiling the kernel is *TRIVIAL* if you refuse to do it then you > >>>>> should not be using any Unix variant > >>>> > >>>> I dislike this tone of voice. However, I agree that compiling the > >>>> kernel might be less effort, than migrating to another operating > >>>> system. If you would e.g. migrate to Arch Linux, you need to get > >>>> used to systemd. Getting used to systemd isn't pleasant. If you > >>>> chose a Linux distro that doesn't use systemd, you likely will > >>>> experience all kinds of trouble, if you want to customize your > >>>> install. > >>> > >>> I used that tone because it really is simple and if you can't/won't > >>> recompile the kernel before throwing the baby out despite with the bath > >>> water then you really don't have the skills/desire needed to use Unix > >>> effectively... Just to show how trivial it really is > >>> > >>> 1. Edit /usr/src/sys/amd64/conf/GENERIC (or i386 instead of amd64 if > >>> your still using it) to comment out the xhci line (line 327 in > >>> 12.2-RELASE-pl3) to remove USB 3.0 support > >>> 2. cd /usr/src > >>> 3. make kernel > >>> 4. etcupdate > >>> 5. reboot > >>> > >>> Done.... how hard is that? > >> > >> I never said I could not compile a new kernel, I said I could not > >> install the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the installation > >> of the OS precede the creation of a new kernel? Furthermore, the > >> screen just rolls away filling up with the error message ad infinitum. > >> > >> By the way, as I understand it, creating a custom kernel nullifies the > >> use of "freebsd update". Wow, things just keep getting better & better. > >> > >> What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one > >> not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain, > >> and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The > >> problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they never > >> were able to get it right. > >> > >> -- > >> Jerry > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions- > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:35:34 -0500 > From: Valeri Galtsev <galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu> > To: Mohammad Noureldin <mohammad@thelightbird.com> > Cc: FreeBSD <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> > Subject: Re: Call to delay EOL of 11.x -> Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: <98F5179B-981F-46F3-8F6C-2695EE23C5E8@kicp.uchicago.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > > On Mar 20, 2021, at 6:30 AM, Mohammad Noureldin < > mohammad@thelightbird.com> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 10:00 @lbutlr <kremels@kreme.com> wrote: > > > >> On 19 Mar 2021, at 10:10, freebsd@johnea.net wrote: > >>> To anyone who has read the bug report, this is clearly a serious > >> regression issue on certain USB (probably 3) host controller hardware. > >> > >> I've read the bug report and all the replies and it is clearly a flaw in > >> the controller. It is providing an invalid ID. > >> > > > > If that's the case, I am curious how other Unix-Like Operating Systems > > manage to work on the same HW ? > > > > Linux may have ?workaround? that. But that is Linux: it is really full of > hacks and workarounds, good clean system better does not go that way. I?m > glad FreeBSD doesn?t (hopefully). Don?t be a hostage of bad hardware > manufacturers. > > Just my $0.02 > > Valeri > > > > >> -- > >> "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" > >> "Are you pondering cheesesticks?" > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > >> freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions- > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:32:20 -0500 > From: Valeri Galtsev <galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu> > To: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" <office@klepp.biz> > Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD > Message-ID: <617090F5-5664-44E2-AA96-218A486A3C69@kicp.uchicago.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > On Mar 19, 2021, at 3:42 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp <office@klepp.biz> > wrote: > > > > Anno domini 2021 Fri, 19 Mar 21:32:14 +0100 > > Ralf Mardorf scripsit: > >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:16:33 -0700, freebsd@johnea.net wrote: > >>> Void uses a runit init system with no systemd > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I suspect it's not a good idea to use Linux without systemd. For > >> example, by upstream udev is part of systemd. Maintaining Linux without > >> systemd is a bottomless pit. > > > > Oh, you can use Devuan - wich works perfect. But I'd reverse the > argument: It's not a good good idea, to run Linux with systemd. Basicly > systemd is the argument to move away from Linux. > > > > Indeed. Once [systemd related] code was aded to kernel, it was it. Kernel > is polluted, and cleaning that away from kernel only adds extra bugs and > problems. Even maintaining the branch of kernel stemming from pre-systemd > is not as good as were it no systemd in the world at all. > > But that is just extra argument to move away from Linux (at least systems > that can be moved away). > > Valeri > > > Nik > > > >> > >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:35:21 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >>> Recompiling the kernel is *TRIVIAL* if you refuse to do it then you > >>> should not be using any Unix variant > >> > >> I dislike this tone of voice. However, I agree that compiling the kernel > >> might be less effort, than migrating to another operating system. If you > >> would e.g. migrate to Arch Linux, you need to get used to systemd. > >> Getting used to systemd isn't pleasant. If you chose a Linux distro > >> that doesn't use systemd, you likely will experience all kinds of > >> trouble, if you want to customize your install. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Ralf > >> _______________________________________________ > >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions- > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also > sharing with the NSA, CIA ... > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions- > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions- > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > ------------------------------ > > End of freebsd-questions Digest, Vol 875, Issue 10 > ************************************************** >
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